Gillian Anderson: How to Get What You Want (in Bed and in Life)
45:43 Share

It's hard to find a great mentor who can help me level up. My dream mentor, Amy Poehler. So I was really excited when I heard she had a class on Masterclass. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. It's the only streaming platform where you can grow with over 200 plus of the world's top experts. For just $10 a month, an annual membership

gets you unlimited access to every single instructor. One of the classes that really stood out to me was James Clear's course on building new habits. I had been struggling with consistency and his practical advice helped me create a daily routine that's actually sustainable.

Plus, every new membership comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash hard things. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash hard things. Don't wait. Start learning from the best today.

Hey, We Can Do Hard Things listeners. We want to tell you about another podcast you're sure to enjoy called Need a Lift. It's a show that focuses on bringing people together during a tough time in our culture. Host Tim Shriver talks to guests who have transformed painful moments in their lives into purpose through their spiritual rituals and practices and demonstrate optimism through their lived experience.

Like bestselling author Min Jin Lee on why she creates complicated characters who hold the secret to our transformation. And Olympic athlete Michael Phelps on the importance of cultivating an inner life in competition, mental health, and in his marriage. Need a Lift is truly the antidote to the hatred and despair we're all exhausted of hearing, giving us hope that change is possible. You can hear more Need a Lift episodes wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, PodSquad. This is Glennon and Amanda and Abby, and you are going to want to listen to this conversation today because it is with the...

Jillian Anderson. The icon! Yeah, the icon. The first thing Jillian did on this interview was to come on and say to us, congratulations on your sex. So you'll have to listen to figure out what she meant by that. Yes. I've never been congratulated on my sex before and I feel fine on the scene. Yes, you have. Okay, so that, why did Jillian congratulate us on our sex? Because

Jillian also cried during this interview, got very emotional, made us all very emotional. You're going to want to listen for what made her feel so deeply. You're also going to hear what our sexual fantasies mean about us and not just about us, but about our entire culture. Jillian also in this interview helps us figure out why we're

All of us to some level need to say F you to wellness culture. God, her rebellion is intoxicating. I'm like, yes, that is how I used to feel. Yes. Yes. That's how I used to act. That's how I used to feel. That is how I used to act. I like it. Before I was beaten down by this world, I too was Jillian Anderson. And I hope you were too. This conversation is going to make you freer. Yeah, it's good. Enjoy.

Jillian Anderson is an award-winning film, television, and theater actor, producer, and director. Among other honors, she has won two Emmys, two Golden Globes, and three SAG Awards. Jillian is also an activist, a charity campaigner, and co-authored the Sunday Times bestseller, We, a manifesto for women everywhere. In 2023, Jillian founded the wellness drinks brand G-Spot, which are just actually completely delicious. Very delicious.

Delicious. In 2016, she was appointed an honorary OBE, Order of the British Empire, for her services to drama. I know you want to be an OBE, don't you? Yes, that looks so cool. She lives in London with her three children and her latest book, Want Sexual Fantasies by Anonymous, is available now.

Welcome, Jillian. Hello! Wow. Hello! Oh my God. Wow. Oh my God. What a treat. Hi, guys. If this interview ended right now, I would still be so excited and consider it a raging success. Sorry, I'm going to take a picture with this silly thing right now because I was given one of these. Although that's not very helpful because I'm... Hang on, hang on. Let me get this right.

Hang on, let me, how do I, how do I, this old fashioned thing, which I am behaving like I'm 150. Hi. So cool. I'm so pleased to meet you guys. So pleased. Congratulations on your sex, on your sex. Congratulations on your sex. No one has ever congratulated us on our sex before. I've worked so hard for my sex. I appreciate it. It's you. That's so good. I don't know why that came out.

I didn't have sex on the brain yet. So it's very strange that it just popped in there. Congratulations on your podcast. Your success. That's the word. Congratulations, man. I'm very happy for you guys. Jillian Anderson, congratulations to you for being such an incredible icon for so long. You are so unbelievably talented and such a trailblazer. Well, first of all,

Can you just talk to us about being named in high school, most likely to get arrested and most bizarre? Because even like on top of all of the iconic, well, it's not just the characters you play. It's like what you bring to it. Obviously, it's like this chemistry thing that happens, which has solidified you as one of the most.

I don't know, revolutionary, inspiring. But the senior superlative is really what made me understand you are not new to this. You're true to this. Okay? So...

Why were you named most likely to get arrested at Most Bizarre? What were your fellow students thinking and seeing in you? I was always and always have been a bit of an outsider. Not a bit. I have been an outsider and didn't really make a lot of friends in high school. My hair was always not unlike it is right now, ratty and not curled and straight and combed and pretty. And then I started wearing...

oversized thrift clothes, cinching it with a belt, pointy black boots with buckles. And I started to shave my head and have a mohawk. And then my boyfriend...

When I was 15 was 21, but that's another conversation. And also by then I'd had a lesbian relationship that they all knew about and teased me about. And so I was kind of on the outside. And then true to form on graduation night, I was actually arrested because I tried to break into the high school with my then boyfriend and glue the locks shut. So yeah. God, you're so cool. Okay. Yeah.

So we have been really immersed in your new book, which the pod squad needs to understand. Well, actually you described to us what I've read the whole thing. Have you? Oh yeah. Beginning to end. That's really, really sweet of you. It is called Want. In the seventies, there was a book by Nancy Friday called

In 1973, she had asked a community of women to write in anonymously to her about their sexual fantasies. And she published that book and it was apparently a huge success. Women carried it in their purses and had it on their coffee tables and it was in every household and it was amazing.

and shocking and sold millions of copies. And my book agent came to me at one point and said, I've had all these requests for you since you did sex education, but the only one that I feel you might be interested in is this. And she suggested that

us doing a version of anonymous letters, sending it out broader. On the one hand, to take a look at the degree to which things may or may not have changed for women since the 70s in terms of what we

think about. And so that really made sense to me. I was really curious about what that might look like. And it made sense as to why I should do it based on having done sex ed and based on my socials feed and how I interact with people. So I started this drinks brand called G-Spot. And because of also leaning into that messaging and inclusivity and diversity and acceptance and

and making choices for oneself about one's own body and how one feels as opposed to what, you know, the wellness industry is telling us we should do and should feel. And so it was all this big conversation that was happening. And I thought, okay, it makes sense that it would be me that would do this book. I put the call out to women from around the world. And my imagination, I was thinking, okay,

we'd get letters from the trans community and from differently abled people and from non-binary and from anyone who identifies as being a woman and that they would come from the far reaches of the world. And even because we've set up a portal that will be protected and be anonymous, that we'll get, you know, women from Iran and we'll get women from Saudi Arabia and we'll get every representation of a woman. And

To a large degree, we did. We've got a wide range of voices in here, and we whittled down over 1,000 letters to 174. And...

It's every woman. It is. It's tender and touching and moving and beautiful and sad and painful and heart-wrenching and sexy as fuck. And there's some really good writing in there. It's raw and honest. And I feel like this isn't my book. This is every woman's book who pitched in, everyone who worked on it at Bloomsbury and the other publishers. It belongs to everyone. And it's starting today.

a much bigger conversation too. So what's happening is we've asked women when they're reading, they're asking themselves, do I get what I want in the bedroom? And if I'm not, have I asked for it? Am I complicit in not getting what I want? Can I ask for it? And if I can't ask for it because of either,

it's feeling too awkward and taboo in the relationship, or I feel like my partner will get angry at me and feel judged for not doing what I want or have, you know, all those questions start to come up and it's not just in the bedroom. It's also women are starting to say, actually, am I happy? Am I happy in my life? Am I getting what I want in my life? Have I actually really put myself out there? I'm now 62 years old and I,

This book is encouraging me to ask these questions and really investigate whether I am living my best life and what would I need to do in order to shift that for myself. And maybe that's leaning more into

the relationship and the intimacy with your partner, your husband, your wife, your other. And maybe it's not. Maybe it's saying, I deserve better than this. I don't know. It's just starting a big conversation. ♪

You have heard me talk about quints before, and I really want you to check them out. Because as you are imagining your fall on the couch with a fire in the fireplace, it's a dream. And here's the deal. In that dream, you are wearing a soft, warm sweater from quints. The one I'm recommending to you right now is this.

the Mongolian cashmere oversized boyfriend cardigan sweater, which is wearing a luxurious, gorgeous blanket on your body. And you are doing this at a fraction of the retail price because that's what you get at Quince.

They do this by working directly with top factories and cutting out the middleman, passing those savings on to us. So get cozy in Quince's high-quality wardrobe essentials. Go to quince.com slash hard things for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash hard things to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash hard things.

Think about how delicately you hold your baby, you dress your baby, and you feed your baby. We do that because they're adorable, of course, but also because their skin is delicate. Know this. There is only one diaper brand that we recommend to give you the gentle, protective care your little one needs. And that's Pantene.

Pampers, the number one pediatrician recommended brand. Their swaddler's diaper absorbs wetness better versus the leading value brand and provides up to 100% leak-proof skin protection to keep your baby's skin dry, healthy, and beautiful. And when you use swaddlers in tandem with new Pampers free and gentle wipes, you'll keep your baby's skin healthy.

The wipes are made from 100% plant-based cloth, and you won't have to worry about tearing. With free and gentle, mess meets its match. That's right! So download the Pampers Club app today and earn Pampers Cash. Redeem your Pampers Cash for exclusive Pampers coupon savings and rewards. I'm excited to share a bit about the incredible work being done by Big Brothers Big Sisters of America. Yeah.

Since 1904, this organization has believed that every child has amazing potential waiting to be unlocked.

As the largest donor and volunteer-supported mentoring network in the nation, they create meaningful, monitored matches between adult volunteers, known as bigs, and children, called littles, ranging from ages 5 to young adulthood. These one-to-one relationships are transformative, empowering young people across the country, especially those from under-resourced families. That

That's why Macy's is proud to partner with Big Brothers Big Sisters, helping to foster these life-changing connections. Shop in-store or at macys.com from November 1st through December 24th to benefit the Big Brothers and Big Sisters of America.

I want to take us back to the sexual fantasies, please, because I have many questions. Congratulations on your sex. Yeah. Congratulations on your sex. While you were talking, I was thinking, you know that quote about everything in the world is about sex except for sex. Sex is about power. I think about that all the time.

And there's something I read the book. And at first there was like many times where I was like, oh my God, like, oh my God, why is this okay to be reading? Like, it's very, very sexy. Okay. Um,

But there's something about it that actually had nothing to do with sex for me. Like I love women. I'm not talking about sexually, although that too, but maybe why Nancy Friday called her book, My Secret Garden. There is a part of us that we don't share with each other. And with the women that I know, that's the only part that we don't share with each other. That's it. So when I was reading your book from beginning to end, I,

The deeper tingle or beauty for me had nothing to do with the actual fantasies. I felt like I was sitting at a slumber party with all different kinds of women where we were finally saying the thing we don't say. And so having nothing to do with sex in particular, I felt so close to other women. Like I felt like, oh my God, like...

I feel when somebody says the really hard thing that they think no one else is going to relate to. And it doesn't matter if you can't relate to it. It matters that they said it. It makes you feel so connected. Yeah. Just in the writing in, they feel seen and heard, which is interesting because they're anonymous. It's the act of actually doing what you're saying, which is speaking to some of our inner truths internally.

Yeah.

your innermost thoughts and feelings and fears. And, you know, and I think we have, obviously as women, we have a tendency to do that anyway, but there's also such a culture out there. I don't know why I'm getting emotional, but there's such a culture out there of women hating on each other and obviously exacerbated by social media. And anybody can say anything to anybody and there are no consequences. And, um,

It feels like if there is ever a time for us to come together and just say, enough of this fucking shit. Enough of this. Mm-hmm.

just even if we're supporting each other, I don't care where you're from or what your religion is or what your political party is or what your anything, what your sex is, your sexual preference, just based on the fact that we are women, we're going to stop hating on each other and just lift each other up. Because particularly, and I also keep thinking this too, is like, you know, in what's happening in the States and what could potentially happen shortly in the next few months, if we lose our power,

you know, to make decisions about our own body. If we can't even do that in the West, how can we be the shoulders that women around the world can stand on in order to lift themselves up? And I never get political and I don't share stuff. I don't comment on stuff on my socials. And I didn't realize that actually I felt so strongly about this. I mean, I know that I feel strongly about it, but if not now, when is what I'm kind of thinking. And so my conversation keeps going in this direction. Yeah.

when I'm talking about this now, because it feels like we're at the precipice and it feels like this, the conversation around this book is giving women a voice and it's a bigger conversation than just the intimacies of what happens in the bedroom. But it's part of the same, but it's part of the same thing. It's the same thing. I mean, it's undeniable the timing. That's what kept

freaking me out about this whole project is that Nancy Friday, the origin of her book was fascinating where she had written a different book, a novel, and it had a sexual fantasy in it. And the publisher was so aghast that it had a woman with a sexual fantasy that they shelved the book because not only because it was so anathema that you would ever print a woman's fantasy, they actually didn't believe

women's fantasies existence. And so they shelved it. They were like, that's a bridge too far. That's nuts. So she writes this book and she writes it in 1973, which is when Roe became law. You start your project in 2022, which is when Roe is overturned. Oh, don't. I didn't actually make that connection. Crazy, right?

What about that is this? Wow. You know, it's just what we were just talking about. It's being seen and being heard and also the community of it and supporting each other. It is. It's just saying enough is enough. And choice, right? When we say we're pro-choice, there's the power comes from the ability to make a choice. Yeah. The idea of fantasy is,

Is there power in saying, I have a choice? I have a preference? Oh, yeah. Is there power in being like, I have the right to feel pleasure? Yeah. Pleasure has been a dirty word. You know, people think of pleasure as being a frivolous thing. Mm-hmm.

You know, and it's not. It's really important. And it's also important to lean into it. It's important to embrace it and to give oneself permission to feel it, to ask for it, to give it to oneself, to identify what it is that gives you

one pleasure because it brings joy. It's a joyful thing. Whatever one's version of pleasure is, even if one's version of pleasure is sitting on the sofa and eating ice cream and watching your favorite, you know, there's a noise that I make, me and my partner make whenever we're like under a duvet or watch it when we finally have like let go and are sitting doing something that, cause we work really fucking hard. And so if we give ourself that moment where we're either under a duvet or on a sofa about to watch a documentary or something, we go, he,

And that's our moment of pleasure. Like you're a little trickster. Whatever it is, there's something mischievous in there. And so there's all such great stuff to embrace and enjoy and take ownership of and identify for ourselves. It's important. That energy. Yeah.

It's trickster energy because it's a little witchy. It reminds me of the feeling that you get when you're out of the talons of something. Like when you have escaped your grind, your work addiction, your capitalism, all the talons that are in us all the time.

The freedom from that, under the duvet, is the same thing as fantasy. It's when you are free from the talons of all the other things. And I think that's why it's so scary. When I read all these and I'm thinking, oh my God, I'm connecting. They're so human.

Everybody's so human. That is what the people who want to control our bodies cannot abide by. They cannot abide that we would have trickster energy that is full of agency, that is full of imagination. When you think of imagination and sexual fantasy being similar, they are the only things that are free from power and control. So that has to be squashed because they cannot consider the fact that

That we may be as fully human as they are and deserving of equal human rights. That's exactly how I feel when I take an afternoon nap. I know you do. I think it's the exact reason why I take my afternoon nap. Yeah, you're out of the talents. I'm just like, fuck everything that's making me think that I should do something different. Yeah. I'm going to go do that. That's a slippery slope when you start breaking the rules. What's next? It's true.

It's true. This is connected completely. Tell us about, we read that you had a point in your life where you had never exercised and that you said, fuck you to wellness culture. And I almost started crying when I read that one sentence. So can you talk to us about that?

how wellness culture has its talents in us. Well, I think, you know, as I said, that that same part of me that, you know, grew up bordering in the punk world and, you know, flipping the bird on the streets of Grand Rapids, Michigan, where I moved from London when I was a kid, it was that same kind of energy that went into the rest of my life, you know, refusing to

internally to do the things that I felt people were telling me that I should do. I've never been good at doing shoulds. I know that I have enough shoulds in my head and they've, you know, at various points in my 20s when I, you know, became very famous young, there were certainly shoulds in terms of feeling bad about myself and my weight going up and down and certainly had a lot of that in my head. But

Despite all that, there's always been this part of me that has stood kind of on the outside looking at all of the wellness doctrines and watching the trajectory of impact that whether it starts with Jane Fonda and when she started the aerobics and all of that, just viewing all of that slightly from the outside and seeing the pressure that

And the beating up that women do to themselves when they don't conform and do the thing that they're told on the outside now through social media and everywhere about what they should not do, what they should and shouldn't look like. And so I think I've always had that in me that said, no, fuck off.

That's just not me. I'm not going to do that. And if you tell me to do it, I'm more likely not to do it. But then recently in the last couple of years, when I realized that I wanted to look at that again and take ownership and say, okay, hang on a second. Instead of to what degree of my rebelliousness is that actually harming me? And can I reframe this and say, okay, here's the deal.

I know that I still want to be lifting grandchildren up. I know I want to be able to put my wheelie bag up on the top of the airplane. I know that I want to be able to walk up the steps, all those little things that, of course, now we take for granted. What can I do for myself by choice, but not, God damn it, by anything that anybody's telling me that I have to do, that I'm just going to, for myself, look at...

these things that I can start doing and not feel like I, like I failed. Like I gave up sugar last year and I hated all of a sudden I realized because most of my

I've said when people say, you know, is there anything you don't eat or do you have any meal restrictions or whatever? I'm like, no, no, no, it's fine. I'm fine. And then suddenly I started to say, well, I'm not doing gluten and no sugar. And I hate saying that because I feel like that part that, like I'm suddenly that actress. Like you're succumbing to the... Like I'm succumbing to the... I cannot say...

Yeah, I see that. And I want to qualify it. And so I've let go of that and I just say it anyway. But it was interesting what happened when I started to say those things. I have an issue, but I'm okay with my issue. You seem to be someone who lives from the inside out and not from the outside in. So like the... Yeah, definitely. You said, I want to be able to pick up my grandkids. I need, I want, which is different than you should. There's this outer...

It's just another religion, right? Another bunch of rules you can live by to keep yourself safe and trying to match yourself to the outside structure is different. It's like the difference between porn and sexual fantasy. Yeah. Sexual fantasy is from the inside. It's something that rises up. It's a want and a need and then perhaps manifests on the outside instead of a structure from the outside that you are trying to get inside your body. Yeah. Yeah.

As a parent, you always want to set your child up for success. So when they're struggling in school or they need help with homework, you try your best to step up. But sometimes you might not be equipped to answer. And it's better to leave that to the experts from iXcel Learning. iXcel Learning is an online learning program for kids. It covers math, language arts, science, and social studies.

iXcel can help your child really understand and master topics in a fun way with positive feedback. Powered by advanced algorithms, iXcel gives the right help to each kid, no matter the age or personality. And when you sign up, one subscription gets you everything you need for all the kids in your home, from pre-K to 12th grade.

iXL is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S., with one in four students across the country using the program. So don't wait any longer. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get iXL now, and listeners can get an exclusive 20% off iXL membership when they sign up today at iXLLearning.com slash audio. Visit iXLLearning.com slash audio to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof like Aloe, Allbirds, or Skims, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand, and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling and for shoppers buying simple.

For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet and the not-so-secret secret, with shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going...

So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell whenever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout experience as business powerhouses like Allo, Allbirds, and Skims.

Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash odyssey podcast, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash odyssey podcast to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash odyssey podcast.

I think even deciding what feels good can be tricky because I was on a walk. When I heard your thing about fuck wellness culture, I had just finished my red light therapy. I had done my infrared sauna for the day and I was on my walk with my little weighted vest on. Okay. Because this is something I was told I need to do. So what I realized is I was listening to you say fuck wellness culture. I know that in my, I know it, I know it. I know we should fuck wellness culture, but

My first thought was, but this makes me feel good. And then I thought, wait, does this make me feel good or does it just make me feel obedient? I think that even what feels good can have a layer of dogma in it. Like, do I feel good in my body or do I just feel like I did the things I was supposed to do that day, which makes me feel safe? Yeah.

It's like, do I feel good or do I feel like I am good? Does this make me feel like I am a good person or does this make me feel good in my body? That's so interesting. Because I don't know that I feel better at all. I think I kind of feel like shit. I just spent my whole day in my basement with lights shining on my face. Like, what the hell is that? I mean, then don't do things that you don't get any response from. You know, like I would never...

And maybe this is because my athletic background. But the reason why we have that stuff is because of me. And it's because they do make me feel good. Because you know how to tell when you feel good. Yeah. All I know how to do is look at a list of things and be like, did I do all the things I was supposed to do? I must feel good. Check, check, check. I must feel good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that is a perfect question to circle back to the fantasies. When you ask a woman, what do you want for dinner?

What do you like to eat? It's so often like, well, our family likes what we do. It's like a deference to those for whom you're responsible, deference to the greater good. Like the idea that you would be even making an inquiry to know what makes you feel good. Yeah.

That's a very radical notion. You've taken the time to be like, what would just make exclusively me feel good in this moment in sex? Yeah. And what we're finding is that for my drink, we did a study at one point asking...

women how much time they put aside in the week for their own pleasure. And I think if I'm remembering correctly, it was about 30 minutes a week max, but also that they are most likely to reach orgasm

outside of the sex that they have with their partner, predominantly heterosexual partner, I would imagine, but who knows? And that it's easier to get there when doing it themselves, which, you know, of course begs the question, what if a conversation could be had? What if, you know, the start of that conversation could be about asking oneself, I guess, first and foremost, what it is that would actually make it possible with the other partner there and

radically deciding that it didn't matter if you might be wasting their time or that you are going to decide to not care whether you were wasting time, that it's not wasting time because it's what you want and what you think would help you get there. And so to say, okay, we're going to have a session today where I show you actually what it is that would make...

Please, I know, all right. Difficult, really difficult. I think it would be helpful if we had two, I need some more words, okay? I need it to not, first of all, I need it to not just be fantasies. I need us to all admit that there's two categories, okay? There's stuff I want to do and stuff I never want to do, but for some reason lights my brain up

Like, okay, so you're an actor. My friend told me who's an actor that sometimes you're in a scene and you have to appear to be crying because you lost a friend or something, okay? But if you're a person who has never lost a friend, you imagine something else that has happened to you that gave you that feeling. This is what she told me, right? So for me, there are certain...

or like little plays that can go on in your head, if that's what a fantasy is, it's like a thought you have that activates sexual energy. But it's not something you ever want to happen. Yeah. So I think one of the reasons why it's scary to talk about fantasy with your partner is because we don't have different words for these. It's because if I say this is my fantasy, then you might...

that that means I want you to invite 12 masked strangers over to our living room. Like there has to be two words. I think what I'm talking about is that in the process of having this joined up conversation about fantasy, we're actually asking ourselves,

separate from the fantasies is, am I actually getting what I want and I need in the bedroom separate from the fantasy? So there is that version of things where maybe you allow yourself to explore your fantasy a bit more in order to either be turned on or to help you get in the mood for sex with your partner. But

But then there's the other part of the conversation which is starting to happen, which is, am I actually getting what I want, period? And can I start that conversation? It's not about a fantasy. It's actually real life. It's real life asking for what it is that we want and we need. Because in doing that, we feel heard, seen, empowered, and empowered.

That shows up a lot in the fantasies in this book of just, you know, a lot of women saying, I want my partner to look at me as if they cherish me, as if they love me exactly the

how I am, who I am and how I am and how I should. If you're realizing that in your mind, that's part of what your fantasy is, you start to ask the question about why is that so, is that such a hard thing to start to explore with my partner in real life, just in terms of finding out whether we still have that together, that spark that, you know, that I deserve to be looked at that way.

It's opening up so many big questions and so much of it at the end of the day is down to what we feel courageous enough, brave enough to address and look at for ourselves. I think that knowing that in this moment, other women are starting to ask this question is

individually and together, can we maybe even just in tiny, tiny, small ways, start to think about ways that we can do things that make us feel like we have choice, give ourselves permission to have choice, to declare what it is that we want, to feel more empowered in working on

the drink and writing the intros for the book, I suddenly realized that so much of, you know, I talk a lot about the fact that through my career, I still get nervous. I still, first days, second days, I'm terrified. I think I'm going to be fired. So many scenes that I have acted in, I have felt nervous.

internally that I'm not that strong person. I'm not that strong.

bossy person, that fierce person. I mean, I am those things, but I'm not how to project that as a Thatcher or as a Scully, particularly when I was young and doing Scully and I was meant to be the boss of or telling all these other FBI agents what to do. And I was like, I know, five years old and had this squeaky voice. And I when I heard myself say these things or argue with, you know, Skinner. So in

In order to show up and do those scenes, as every actor does, you have to

to pretend as if you can. You have to act as if. That's what acting is. You're acting as if. And so if I can fucking do it, if I can do it, this five foot two and a half woman who's now 56 and has been, you know, has always had a bit of a squeaky voice and is, you know, the older we get, the less heard we feel. If I can continue for the last 30 years to do this and be in the shoes of really, really powerful women, then we can all

all stand in those shoes. We can all pretend to be that person. I think sometimes we feel that we can't, or how could we? I can't speak up for myself. I can't, they don't listen to me. I don't, who am I to, you know, and, and,

I don't think it's that different for anybody. People in all walks of life get nervous, feel anxious, feel like there's no way they're going to be heard or seen. At the end of the day, it comes down to just doing it, just acting as if, just giving yourself permission and the courage. And if you have to imagine...

You're somebody else. You know, there used to be these bumper stickers when I did this series called The Fall that said, what would Stella do? And that's it. If that's what you need to have in your mind, that's part fantasy too, right? That's fantasy. It really does, when you're talking, make me think,

So much about how it all, the personal is the political. And if we're in our bedrooms with our person who's supposed to know us the best, who we're supposed to feel safe with, and we cannot say, this is who I am, and this is what I want, and I am as fully human as you, and I have needs too.

if we can't do it there, of course, we're not going to be able to do it at work at the voting booths. And it is so much, when I think about the fantasies in the book, it is so much about being known. So many of them seem to be saying, I know you love sex. Do you love me?

I want you to want me because of me, not because you want sex. It's like, I remember that feeling from heterosexual relationships, not anymore, but like where I felt so interchangeable. Like it doesn't matter that I'm here, that it's me here. You just need somebody here. And so that idea of just, do you even know me? That's why like everything's about sex except for sex. Sex is about being known. Sex is about power. Yeah.

I mean, even some of the fantasies that were about life. I will never forget the one that was this beautifully written one where the woman was just saying, I'm married to my best friend. I love my marriage. I'm married to my best friend. My fantasy is that in another life, I'm married to a bad boy. That's one of my favorite ones. I'm married to a guy who doesn't care about my feelings as much as himself. I'm married to... Yeah. In my other life, I'm married to her. Yeah.

And we are so tender with each other. And we know every single thing about each other. And protective and fierce. And it's, yeah. And it's voluptuous and soft and caring. And mushy. I know. Beautiful. And then it just ends with, and I'm married to my best friend. That sexual fantasy is about fantasizing that life was different.

that we didn't have opportunity costs, that we had a million. My version of that is, oh, I wish I could just, I can't believe I can't read all the books. Less sexy. But that's what people mean, right? When there's not enough life to go everywhere I want to go, to read every book, to have every marriage I want to have, to be gay, to be straight, to be queer, to be all the things.

It's the fantasy of not having to, not having to choose. It's the fantasy of different. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing. Yeah. It's so beautiful. And it's enough. It's like the whole like, but I'm lucky enough, but I should be grateful for what I have. I'm married to my best friend. But like the idea that you would have this voracious appetite for life.

That's scary. A voracious appetite for sex to be what it want, a voracious appetite for life. I want that and also that and also that. And I think it works, like you said, like if you can't even do it in your bedroom, how can we have power and outside of it? But I think the reverse is true. Why in the world would someone think that they deserve what they want if

in their intermost, nothing's on fire if you're not going to get exactly what you want from sex. Nobody's going to go hungry. No one's going to, if the actual needs you have, your healthcare needs, your needs to be able to make choices about your own body, if those

things are seen as not viable, defendable, valuable needs, why the hell would anyone think that their sexual desires are needs that deserve to be heard? Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jillian, you're doing such good work. You freaked us the fuck out. So-

Mission accomplished. Yeah. You're so bizarre. And, you know, I just want to say this for all of the lesbians out there. You've been an icon, like a North Star for so many of us. And I'm just glad to get to know you a little bit because it makes me understand it. I just want to say thank you for, you know, being that for us all these years.

Oh, thank you. It's been a pleasure. And for the lesbians, it's not what would Scully do? The underground is what would Jillian do? Yeah, for sure. So cool. I can't thank you enough for having me on the show. And you guys are doing great work too. And I so, so appreciate it. I've started a kind of a media hub called thisisgeode.com where we're continuing the conversation around the book and for women and

internationally as well. And there'll be lots of opportunities to come together. We'll be doing a lot of live shows with celebrity readings of the book and stuff like that. So hopefully at some point along the way, I will see you maybe at one of those things in person. You know which one I want to read? The Three Lives. Oh yeah. I want the Three Lives one. Yeah.

Okay, all right. I will absolutely put your name on that one. That's one of my favorites. It's so cool. I'm so grateful to all the women who wrote in. And thank you for being so present and for being there and for letting me cry on your doorstep. Thank you, Jillian. Thank you, PodSquad. Bye. Thank you, PodSquad.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and

And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.