Susan Lund
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In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared. I found out what happened to all of them, except one. A woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars. I'm Lucy Sheriff. Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

Hear the story on Where's Dear? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Voices for Justice is a podcast that uses adult language and discusses sensitive and potentially triggering topics, including violence, abuse, and murder.

This podcast may not be appropriate for younger audiences. All parties are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some names have been changed or omitted per their request or for safety purposes. Listener discretion is advised. My name is Sarah Turney and this is Voices for Justice.

Today I'm joined by Laura Norton to discuss the case of Susan Lund and the nearly 30-year journey to identify her. Laura worked for years to help identify Susan with an incredible team of experts, but her case is still in need of justice. According to Paul Lund, on Christmas Eve 1992, his 25-year-old wife, Susan Lund, went missing on a walk to the grocery store to buy ingredients for their family's holiday dinner.

He reported her missing not long after. About a month later, near the end of January 1993, Susan's partial remains were found near Ina, Illinois, in Wayne Fitzgerald State Park.

Unfortunately, Susan remained unidentified for decades, and was only known as Ina Jane Doe. And in a strange twist of fate, not long after she went missing, Susan's case was closed after a mysterious woman came forward and identified herself as Susan. Susan's children spent decades believing she may have intentionally left them, and chose to never reach out again.

But in early 2021, Dr. Amy Michael, assistant professor of anthropology at the University of New Hampshire, along with writer, researcher, and host Laura Norton, were approved by Jefferson County Sheriff's Office to re-examine the case. Through their journey, they worked with a variety of experts to correct misconceptions about Ina Jane Doe. When the genealogists at Redgrave Research joined the efforts, they finally identified her as Susan Lund in 2022.

Laura Norton recently chronicled this incredible journey along with the science behind it in her upcoming book, Lay Them to Rest. So I invited her on the show to discuss her book, Susan's Case, the inner workings behind doing this type of work, and of course, how you can help. This is the case of Susan Lund. Laura, thank you for coming on the show. I would love if you took a moment to introduce yourself to my listeners.

Absolutely. My name is Laura Norton, and I am a writer, researcher, and podcast host. Some of your listeners may be familiar with me from my shows The Fall Line and From One Strange Thing. I've been doing those shows for six years and three years, respectively. I'm also the author of a book called Lay Them to Rest, which is out in just about, oh gosh, now a couple weeks. It's out October 17th.

Yeah, right after my birthday. And I like to pretend that you chose that date specifically as a gift to me. It was chosen for that reason, actually. I thought so. I thought so. Thank you. For those of you who may not know, I would love to talk about how me and Laura met because I think it's so funny because I was so intimidated by you. So...

Flashback to 2019 and the first true crime podcast festival now known as the true crime podcast and paranormal podcast festival. I didn't say that correct, but you guys know what I mean. I did my first ever ethics and true crime panel with you. And I remember being so intimidated because you're so freaking smart. And here you at that time, you are still a professor.

And I was like, wow, who am I? I was a podcaster for a single day at that point. And we got on stage together and I was just mesmerized by you. Even there was a little pre-party the day before the festival. And I remember seeing you sit on a couch and I wanted to approach you and I got too nervous. But that's how we met, the True Crime Podcast Festival in 2019. And we actually weren't

We were strangers. I don't think we'd even been introduced to each other. And I so wish that people would just walk up and talk to me because I'm invariably staring off into the distance. Yeah.

You know me now, you know this. Just thinking about something random and wishing I was talking to someone. And then people are like, wow, she's probably thinking about something. No, no. I'm thinking about like, do coyotes have friends? Like that's what's going through my brain at that time. So if you are ever in public and you see me, please come talk to me to save me from myself. That's

That's what's happening. Let's just put this to rest. Of course coyotes have friends, Laura. Like, what are you even talking about? Of course they have friends. I worry. They're roadrunners that they also try to kill, right? But they never can. No, you have been incredibly warm to me. And we really reconnected a few years ago. And

You know, and I haven't really talked about this just yet because as my audience knows, I created all these very long, rambling secret after show moments where I was talking about Alyssa's trial. And I just I burst into tears trying to thank people. So I deleted them all out of shame or whatever. But one of the people I wanted to thank that never made it to air was you. You were

are still and were very much a huge lifeline for me during all that. I mean, I can't, if we had to count the texts, I don't think I could count that high. You were such a huge support for me during that. And again, still a huge support for me now. So I, I guess this is my formal thank you right here during the episode about your book. I mean, no thanks are needed for that. You know, I can't,

This sounds sort of asinine to say, but like how many of us can imagine what it's like to go through a criminal trial involving your loved one, you know? So, and just seriously and truly, I was glad that I could be there for you during that. I have the ability to work from home, so I was able to listen to the trial, you know? And so that was a privilege that I had and I was happy to be there for you, obviously. Yeah.

Well, thank you. I mean, one of the reasons I love you and I think you're so well-respected in the community is because you are so caring and you take such seriously.

um, you know, I guess care again with these cases. And I think that that really rolls right into Susan Lund's case and your book. And what, so for those who do not know, we are discussing Laura's book, Lay Them to Rest, again, out October 17th of this year. You can pre-order it everywhere. Or if you're listening after October 17th, you can buy it now. I will have the link in my description.

But this book follows you, experts, and even students as you work to identify the Ina Jane Doe, who we now know is Susan Lund, who unfortunately, her decapitated head was found in a park in Illinois in 1993. So I just wanted to get right into it. Can you tell us a bit about the book and why you chose Susan's case specifically? Absolutely. So

The person who I work with on cases most often is Dr. Amy Michael. She's a biological anthropologist who specializes in forensic anthropology. She and I have been friends for a long time. She's a professor at UNH, and so that's University of New Hampshire, up in New England, so across the way from me. I'm down south in Atlanta. And she and I always have a lot of cases in

that we're trying to work on at one time, we really focus on cases where we think that maybe if we were to offer some help, like it could help resolve a case. And this could be a lot of different kinds of cases.

This can be cases where departments may not have the funding for whether it's testing or and that's all different kinds of testing, right? Not just DNA testing that can be like radiocarbon blasting that could be isotopic testing. Maybe it's a case where we think research could be helpful. So me coming in and doing archival research, right?

It could be a case where new forensic art could be helpful. It could be a case where new skeletal reanalysis could be helpful because one thing people don't know is that forensic anthropology is not a static science.

It's not like we learned everything we needed to know about bones in 1980 or 1990. And that was it. They're learning new things every day and having arguments. And when I say arguments, I really mean more like healthy debates in their field about how to interpret bones, what is important information when it comes to identifying someone. And so there are all these cases out there that haven't been looked at since 1970, 1980, 1990, even 2000.

that are kind of sitting there because there are of course so many more newer cases. So Amy and I keep track of those cases, cases that are least likely to get picked up, right? Cases maybe that don't have the art, that don't have a detailed story behind them. And we look at them and say, can we pull the funds together to try to go in and see if we can be of service? So

Susan Lund's case, who was then known as Ina Jane Doe, that's a case from the area where Amy grew up. She's a Midwesterner. She grew up near Ina. And that's a case we'd both kept track of for a long time. And the reason we both had was...

There was very particular forensic art in her case, and it had been circulated on the Internet really widely for a long time. And we both felt that if someone recognized her and we felt like there would have been someone who would have seen that art, she would have been identified by this point. And it just so happened that I had been approached to write a book.

After The Fall Line did a series on the victims of Samuel Little that took us, gosh, almost two years to put together, I was really interested in writing a book about what I had learned during my time researching and writing about cases that are undercover. But I was not interested in writing about serial killers. What I really wanted to write about was forensic science. And I'm not an expert in forensic science.

I'm a learner. I'm a lifetime learner. I was a professor for years, but I think I'm a learner first. And I was lucky enough to meet experts who were willing to help me understand all of the things I was coming upon in files, you know, odontological reports and reports from anthropologists and toxicology reports and so on. They would help me kind of decode all the language that someone who has a couple of degrees in creative writing is not familiar

ready to decode. And as I learned, I said, wow, there's so much here that I wish that the general public had a better understanding of and that I wish that I had had a better understanding of so that I could understand not only why unidentified persons cases aren't solved, but why missing persons cases aren't solved sometimes. And having a better understanding of all of these factors, not only could this help us

have a better language around forensics, but it could help us better advocate for cases. It could help us solve more cases and it could help us better understand the news that we receive every day. So I wanted to offer both an introduction to forensic science for the layperson, because I am the layperson, and also walk readers through a case as I experienced it, because it just so happened to line up

that the case we were beginning to work on at the time was the case of Ina Jane Doe. The approvals came through, and it all just kind of lined up perfectly. And this was a case that we were all really passionate about as well, a case that we felt could be solved. So I don't tend to believe in fate or serendipity necessarily, but things just lined up, and it worked out perfectly for the book.

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And I think one of the most interesting aspects of the book for me was the way that you outlined it. Of course, for those who have not read it, it really weaves the storyline along with explaining the science behind it the entire way. And I would love to know what made you decide to structure the book this way.

So I wanted to explain science with lots of examples because I live for examples. Like I need examples and I need real world examples and I need lots of them.

And I wanted to break down the examples and I wanted to go back and forth between scenes from the actual story we were living to help people understand how, for instance, anthropology was applied to a real life case, the case we were working on and how, you know, study of teeth odontology was applied to the case we were working on.

But I also wanted folks to understand that this one case is not representative of all cases. So I tried to pull in examples from more famous cases and less well-known cases as well in the chapters that are based on science. So for folks who haven't had a chance to look at the book yet, it alternates chapters between on the road, the case we're actually working on, and then the science chapters that give you the background you need to really understand what's happening and

And so I just felt like for me, that was my learning process. So when I was learning about cases, I'd have to go and like understand the science about the case to truly get into the case. So I wanted my readers to have that information and,

So they could become fully immersed in what was happening and really understand, like, when a triumph came in Sue's case, I wanted them to feel that. And when we ran into a roadblock, I wanted them to understand why that roadblock was there and how it could be tackled. Well, I really enjoyed it. I mean, I think it helped me understand the science better. And I like to think that I at least know a little bit about what's going on, but...

You know, in addition to all the science behind the book, there's so much heart. And before we started this interview, I told you I was going to tell you about the sections that made me cry, which we always joke that it's not a high threshold to make me cry.

But there was this part in the book where you and Dr. Amy Michael are up in the attic of this school trying to help identify a person who'd been mummified and donated to that school. And it really appeared like this woman was horrifically preserved to be put on display. And there's this long wire that went through her entire body.

And there's this pause in the book. You guys are up in this attic and you look back to Amy and she says she can't leave her there like that. And she removes the wire. And I was crying my freaking eyes out.

But more importantly, I wanted to talk about the ethics of it all because you present it, again, in such a heartful way. And of course, obviously talking back to how we first met, ethics and true crime and all of that is a huge passion point for both of us. But I wanted to know, and I know you can't directly answer for Amy or maybe you can. We know that not everyone handles remains with such passion.

love and care. But I want to know, how does this extreme level of care happen? Is there a guidebook? Is this a professional standard? Or is this a personal choice that experts have to make?

I think that it's kind of a combination, right? So at least with the experts that I have had the honor of working with, who are all kind of the newer school of biological anthropologists who are trained in forensics. But being technically a forensic anthropologist requires a special kind of certification.

They're all, you know, sort of millennial below. And I can't speak for people who are older, although I have interviewed a few and they did have really similar backgrounds and thoughts on this. They really approach human remains as human.

And that's how Amy teaches her students. That's how her friends that I've had the chance to work and speak with, like Dr. Samantha Blatt, Dr. Jen Bingston, Dr. Mari Issa, been in the lab with. That's how they approach their students in this work is that you're not handling a remain or a bone. You're handling a human being. And I think that level of care and just making sure that people are not, you know, tossing around debris or,

And they're recognizing that the humanity remains and they remain, right? Because eventually the hope is that you're reconnecting this person to their identity, right? And I know you and I have talked a lot about that concept of identity. I'm not real fond of the phrase giving someone back their name. I feel like they always have their name. But you're reconnecting a person to their identity that they always had.

And when you reconnect that person to their identity that they always had, you want to make sure that you have respected that identity all the way through. So the very first time I started working with Amy, that was just simply how she taught her students. And so maybe I'm lucky, but that was simply how I was taught anthropology.

and how I got to see it practiced firsthand. So from the jump, right, it was human first. And it wasn't surprising to me to be in an attic full, it just happened to be women, an attic full of women, and we're looking at a woman whose body was desecrated. She was turned into an anatomical mummy. And this was before the Ethical Donation Act, so it could not have been done ethically.

And just seeing what had been done to her, it made perfect sense to me that Amy, who could not identify her at that moment, didn't want to leave her in a state that to us implied just kind of an extra desecration, right? It's just part of the humanity of the work because what an anthropologist is at heart is someone who studies humanity and tries to understand people.

And my friends who are biological anthropologists who work in forensic anthropology, which is the study of bone, bone is still the study of humanity, right? And so I think they try not to forget that. I love that. Well, and I think that there is such a stark difference between seeing, you know, and I wish we had a better name to call her, but this, you know, this mummified doe and how she was treated to how you guys were treating Susan's remains this entire time. And this isn't exactly a question, but...

But I thought it was really cool that you guys were working with some of Amy's students along the way and kind of teaching this next generation. And you guys are both professors or you were formerly a professor. And I think it was just so neat that you guys weren't only doing this work, but also teaching kind of the next generation of best practices. And you guys were successful and

I can only imagine that this really changed their lives forever. I can't speak for those students, but, you know, I was once a college student. And I think if I had some type of hands on experience like that, it probably would have changed my life. So that's one of the coolest things I think about the experience in a good anthropology lab. That's what they do.

So they do go out in the field and do that kind of work regularly with law enforcement and medical examiners. And they learn not just, you know, in a sterile environment, but they go out and do actual help with recovery of remains. And so by the time that they do that, they've been really well trained by people like Amy about respecting humanity. And so when they're put into that situation, when they're

They're in a place where, you know, because if you think about it, like in a small town, oftentimes they're going to be calling in the university to help do some sort of recovery. Who is going to be able to recognize, say, bone shards, right? It's oftentimes not going to be law enforcement. They're going to call in the anthropologist and the people that they've trained.

So you're looking at these students who have already been trained in these ethical practices to come in and do that. And like, who better? Right. So it's really amazing to me that these young scientists are getting that kind of training because then they're going to train the next generation and the next generation. And I think those practices just get better and more informed, you know, and more nuanced.

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's the hope, right, is we keep building from generation to generation just to be better people and better at the science of it all. So that makes total sense to me. And not to give away the book, but you guys do end up obviously identifying Susan. And one of the interesting aspects for me is that you really see, you know, this kind of

This anguishing journey that's taking, you know, a few years to unfold, really. It's taking quite a while for all these pieces to come together. But then all of a sudden, it's like it goes from this longer process to all of a sudden being identified kind of all at once. It seems like that final piece of identifying her happened overnight.

I mean, I don't know the exact timeline of the book. I can't remember, but it seems like just really a few weeks. What was that like for you to go through that after all this buildup for this to happen so quickly? It kind of comes down to like the luck of the investigative genetic genealogy draw.

Or as I think they have just updated it to forensic investigative genetic genealogy. So we were lucky to be working with really, really talented forensic investigative genetic genealogists. And that was Redgrave Research. I knew that they would be able to identify her as soon as I found out that we had a viable DNA sample from Astraea. I knew they would be able to do it. The question was simply like how long it was going to take.

But when they uploaded to GEDmatch Pro, Sue's sample, and she had a really high relationship match, comparatively speaking. This would be like a first cousin once removed. And if you've ever looked at your samples for your listeners out there, this was like 432 centimorgans.

What a genetic genealogist is hoping to see is something like around 100. They're like, okay, boy, we can solve this with 100, as long as there's no heavy endogamy, which means lots of crossing family lines with the same names. So they knew they were going to be able to solve it. And that's kind of how it works, like slow, slow, slow, quick. But normally quick is like weeks or days.

Did I think it was going to take under eight hours? I did not. So that was a shock. Maybe I shouldn't have been shocked. They're incredibly talented. But it was a shock. You know, I mean, I literally...

It felt like a flash. I don't want to quite give this away. It felt like a flash, but I was staring at a photo in a very short period of time of a face and I had a name. And then someone who I had been thinking of as Ina Jane Doe for two years suddenly was Susan Menard Lund, you know, so.

Yeah, the whiplash of it all. And again, not to give it away, but you know, you went to sleep and woke up and it was, you know, she was identified, which I'm sure was just insane for you. You

You know, in addition to talking about the parts of the case that made me cry, I want to talk about the part that frustrated me. So Susan is identified and you find out that the police closed her case like very soon after she went missing. And they said that she was actually found. How does this even happen? And how do you think that impacted the case and trying to identify her?

This is the part that I think was the saddest and the most frustrating for her family. And I'm sure we'll be talking about her family in a little bit because I've spent a lot of time with them. But it was frustrating on my part as a researcher because I felt pretty sure that if her case hadn't been closed, I would have identified her before we had to do testing because I spent hundreds of hours investigating.

in archives on NamUs, on every possible database. And I feel like I could have narrowed it down based on a couple of key characteristics. But here's the thing. She wasn't in any database because her case had been, in my opinion, improperly closed. So although Ina Jane Doe was found in Illinois, Susan Menard Lund went missing in Tennessee. And without getting into the details of her case too much, someone claimed to be her

and alerted authorities that they were living in Alabama. And authorities, through what I think is fair to say, these are authorities in Tennessee, not the authorities in Illinois who currently have her case. They have her case open. It is active. Let me be clear there.

But the authorities in Tennessee closed her case based on this person's word. And what I do know from Sue's sisters, her parents have unfortunately passed away and they passed away before they got this news of what happened to her.

They went down to Alabama and either spoke to this person on the phone or saw her in person. Sue's sisters just aren't sure. But they told the authorities from Tennessee and Alabama that this was not Sue. But the case was closed despite their protests. And it was just assumed that this person in Alabama who claimed to be Sue was Sue.

We don't know why this person claimed to be Sue. And I don't like to speculate on things. I have kind of a big issue with speculation because it can just lead you in the wrong direction. But what we do know are the effects of that, which is her case was closed, which meant that her family could not open another case. And because her family could not open another case, their hands were effectively tied for the next 30 years. They could look for her all they wanted.

But they could only look in informal ways. So they spent the next 30 years checking missing persons reports, checking unidentified persons reports. When the Internet developed, they were checking unidentified person sketches.

When we finally identified her, we found posts that her family had made as recently as a week or two before her identification, trading pictures of unidentified does still looking for her. So, I mean, that's incredibly frustrating that a family had to wait that long when her case had been open. I think that she could have been matched, if not by us, even earlier.

Well, and of course, you know, that's something I will always connect with is that family member element. And I do want to talk about it, you know, because again, another piece that made me cry was the fact that her kids thought that she just left her, left them. And it's just, it's heart wrenching to think that those kids grew up thinking that there was a possibility that their mom willingly left them. And again, this isn't a question, but I, I

I want you to realize how amazing you are that you helped give them those answers. I mean, that and I can't speak for them and every journey is different. But to know that your mom didn't willingly leave you, again, made me cry. And you you did that. You did that.

Well, I was one of the people. I don't want to... One of a team of people that helped with that. But it's talking a lot with Sue's daughter, Crystal, who is her main advocate in her case. She... Just the pain of that is something that...

I think that most people haven't thought about and, you know, like, why would we? Right. But to not only not have answers as to what happened to your loved one, but to think that your loved one also left you of their own free will is

Just the double pain of that is something that I know family members who've been through situations like you have and Crystal have can imagine. But I don't think a lot of us can because we're lucky. And to get that double answer of no, your mom didn't leave you, something bad happened to her is a complex situation that I can't imagine having to process.

So her family is still, you know, processing that. But I know at least for her daughter, Crystal, she's told me, you know, what I'm free to share with people that for her, it has been something that does feel really healing because it lines up with the mother that she remembers from her childhood, who was really kind and loved her very much. And

took time out of her day to teach her things, sing her songs. They both really loved animals. So, you know, it would take her to see animals all around the neighborhood and, you know, would take time out to take them on little walks. And, you know, she'd take them to Dairy Queen every day so they had something to do even when they were bored in the summer before they got a car when they moved to Tennessee.

So for her, the pieces of her childhood that felt disparate, you know, the story that maybe your mom had run away and left you, suddenly everything clicked back into place in a way that felt unified. So I know for her, that part felt really good.

Of course. And yeah, another part in the book that made me cry was when you talked about how she would sing her kids, You Are My Sunshine. And I was like, I lost it so many different parts of this book. But I can only imagine what it was like for you to spend so much time with this woman, you know, that you got to know through your research. And then finally speaking to her family. What was that like for you after all this time to meet her children?

So, you know, this just from us being friends, like, you know, we work a lot with families, but it's always on the other side of things. Right. It's always families who are looking for answers and very rarely on the fall line have the families that we've worked with gotten answers. There's been a few, but I have never met a family for the first time.

when they are receiving an answer and when I'm part of the process that got them that answer. So that's a unique experience. To meet her family, like the word honor is not quite the right word. I felt grateful to meet them. I felt a responsibility to provide as much information as I could. I felt so much empathy for them.

You know, I just felt, I don't know, you know, it was extremely, I'm getting emotional now. It was an extremely emotional experience because the day that I first met them was the day before the press conference to announce the Sullivan's case. So we were all staying at the same hotel and we just went out to dinner.

And I went out to dinner with Sue's sisters first. Her daughter was she's living in a different country. So we just, you know, talk on the phone or FaceTime. But we just went out to dinner. And the thing I remember the most is that.

They brought pictures that I hadn't seen before, you know, because there was only a few pictures that had run in the newspaper. And I had found Sue's high school yearbooks. The little tiny local library had scanned them. But the thing that really struck me was their family childhood home had flooded and there had been a fire, but they were able to save the pictures of her. And so they brought those like all the way from Indiana to Illinois and

And they brought them to dinner and we went through them. And it was I don't know, I didn't take notes. I didn't do anything for the book at that meeting. You know, we just ate together. But just going through those pictures was one of the more emotionally complex and difficult experiences of my life. And I just felt that there's not if you can tell, but like there's not really a good word to describe it. The closest word was grateful to be there with them.

And grateful to have the chance to do this kind of work that could benefit someone in some way, I guess. No, that makes total sense to me. I always, like, I, believe it or not, I think a lot of people expect me to know what to say in, you know, emotional situations like that when it involves loss or true crime. And my answer is there's no words, right? There are no words sometimes to describe these situations. It's just...

Unbelievable and amazing what you did for this family. And I know it was a group effort, but I am speaking to you. So, you know, your piece in all of this was amazing. And you changed that family forever. I mean, there's no denying that. And

As a side note, I'm not surprised that they saved the pictures. I will say that my emergency plan if something happens to my home involves grabbing every picture of Alyssa, my sister, that I have left. So I totally get that and empathize with that so much. And I'm so glad that they still have those photos. It means everything, especially, you know, memories fade and to have those things is just so important.

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Now that we know who Susan is, I want to talk about, I guess I'm repeating myself a little bit, who she was as a person. What did you learn about her? I would love to kind of dive into that and her personality because, you know, she's so much more, obviously, you know, than just a Jane Doe and so much more than just a victim of a crime. What did you find out about who she was as a person?

Yeah. And I'll let people read the book to find out how much this differs from what was assumed based in the 90s, because there are a lot of differences. I want to concentrate on Sue. Sue was only 25 years old.

When she died, she was the mother of three children. She was from Indiana. She'd married her high school sweetheart. He was in the army and he had been stationed in Germany for quite a bit. So she was living with her sister, Pam, for quite a while there. And when he came back from Germany, the whole family moved to Tennessee and they were living like right on the border between Tennessee and Kentucky because he was stationed at Fort Campbell.

And they had just moved into housing that was off base. And because they were so new there, like they didn't have anything set up yet. So, you know, they didn't have a car. They didn't have a phone yet. So like they were really just like in transition at that point. She was feeling like, of course, stressed about that. But she was also in this like kind of sweet honeymoon period with her kids.

Because she had been working like crazy. She and Pam were trading off childcare duties. So this was the first time that she'd been at home with all three of her kids. And she said that like watching them develop day by day was kind of a gift. This was something that Pam remembered, like getting to watch the kids just like learn to do something new because she and Pam have been switching off shifts. She just didn't really get to see that quite as much like hour by hour.

So she was really like loving that. She had been kind of quiet in high school, but had her group of friends. She was kind of a tomboy. You know, she had played softball for quite some time. She actually met her husband at a video arcade. I think she was playing pinball. So that was kind of her thing.

And she really was hoping one day to become a veterinarian or maybe a vet's assistant because her big passion in life was animals. Like some of Crystal, her daughters and Crystal's her middle child. So she was four when Sue disappeared.

Some of Crystal's biggest memories are things like Sue crawling underneath a porch that Crystal was like definitely sure was full of snakes to rescue a kitten that was like all the way in the back and pull it out. That was the kind of thing she would do. She would walk up to a fence where like the meanest dog was chained up and get the dog to like lay down and let her pet it.

She would approach any animal, try and take care of it, take it home, nurse it back to health. You know, that was her big thing was a huge love of animals. They were on vacation. Her whole family would go to the beach. She would stay and take care of the farm animals. Like that was her thing. And it was something that Crystal has thought about a lot as she's gotten older because she's found herself suddenly like, you know, as you do, I think if you're an empathetic person, like doing animal rescue, all my friends who are like that do that.

I was talking to Crystal yesterday and she suddenly has a dog and seven puppies at her house that she's taking care of, you know, so very much like her mom. So that's the kind of woman she was. She was just a huge animal lover. She was a young mother. And I think she was really looking forward to getting settled in Tennessee. She'd only been there for a little while.

So that when her kids all got to school age, she could maybe look at getting a job at a veterinarian's office and learn more about that profession.

Now I'm getting emotional. It's just, I mean, it's so amazing to have more context. And, you know, of course, not to make it about me, but I think about, you know, my sister sitting there as a doe and no one knowing, you know, how amazing she was. And so before I completely cry, I just, again, want to say that it's absolutely amazing what you were a part of and the answers you were able to provide and really, you know,

Thank you so much.

I'm sure that makes you incredibly uncomfortable. So we can dive right into where is the case today? Of course, Susan has been identified, but there's a whole other piece out there. There's a killer out there possibly still on the loose. So where does her case stand today? Yeah, I mean, Susan is a homicide victim. There are a killer or killers responsible for her murder. So

The way that we approach this is that Dr. Amy Michael, the forensic anthropologist and I who work together on these cases,

have teamed up to offer a $10,000 reward in her case. And this reward does not expire. So I want to make sure that's clear, like that reward is there forever. So we were lucky enough to go to a nonprofit that you and I are both very familiar with. Let's not act like we're not because I work with them all the time, which is Season of Justice. And Season of Justice is a nonprofit that

I've been working with for about a year, um, who has been able to provide family grants to now five families who've been on my show, the fall line. And, um, we raise money for them all the time because I think that these family grants are so important. Um, billboards, you know, um,

We've had, you know, radio ads. There have been bus signs. I know that Montana at the Blackfeet Reservation, they decided that T-shirts and big signs that could be reused at marches and put up on the sides of buildings were the best way to go. So it's a really, you know, what fits the family best kind of campaign, not one size fits all. So Crystal actually applied for and was granted a family grant for her mother.

And after some discussion, we decided with Crystal and Season of Justice that the best way to handle this was rather than putting up any billboards in the Illinois area, what we really wanted to target was Clarksville, Tennessee, where Sue disappeared. So for October, because we thought that might be the best time, that's when her case is going to get attention. That's when my book comes out. That's when interviews are going to run. That's when press is going to happen.

We are going to plaster that place with billboards. So there's going to be billboards up saying, you know, where she was last seen on what day with her photo announcing the reward. And there's going to be a tip line up. That tip line is going to go to Illinois because Illinois has her case. So that's going to be the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office. They had Sue's unidentified person's case. They are now actively pursuing her homicide case.

So they're the ones who need the tips. And so that's where we're at right now. We're just trying to attract as much attention as possible. I'm actually going to make a flyer that can be shared on social media as well with the same information. And I'm going to make that available not only on my website. I like to make things as a PDF that can be downloaded easily, but also on Vimeo.

the podcast, social media, also on my personal social media so that people can share it easily as well, just to get that circulating. Because like I said, it does not expire. So as far as we can get it across Tennessee, Kentucky, you know, all of that region would be, I think, really important at this time. This is Jessica Knoll, host of the new series, Back in Crime.

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Of course, Voices for Justice is all about how we can help. So what is our call to action, Laura? How can we help Susan's case? I think the biggest thing is going to be making not only Tennessee, but the region aware of her case.

When she was identified, there was some limited local coverage of her. But I think we really need to get in contact with the people who lived in the area at the time. The problem is, of course, that people move. It was 1993. People don't usually move that far, though. So I think if we really can share not only her flyer, but try to get in touch with local media.

when those billboards go up, asking them to cover this case because a billboard is a newsworthy story. I have learned that. I am often able to get local media to cover a billboard when it goes up, right? It's an easy story.

So when those billboards go up, asking local media, if you live in the area, to cover the case. If you happen to live in the Clarksville, Tennessee area, take a picture, share it on social media. Sharing the PDFs of the flyers that I'm going to put up as well, and I'll have those ready for Sarah.

Just getting it out there, spreading the word. If you have a TikTok account, please feel free to make a TikTok, sharing the flyer as well. All of that would be super helpful. I just think we want to make her case more well-known than it is now. She's been Ina Jane Doe. Let's make her Susan Menard-Lund.

I love that. So if you guys are listening, please share. I know that we talk about this every single week, but the power of a single share is so, so intense. I mean, you guys really don't know how far it can go. Maybe you do. I mean, look at my sister's case. Yeah, I mean, they probably do. Maybe your audience does. My audience probably does. And I know that I might say this all the time, and maybe it feels a little played out, but

Alyssa's case started with a single share. I started with zero followers. You know what I mean? So those shares are so important and so powerful. So please, if you listen to this entire interview, this entire episode, just take a moment to share. It would mean the world to me, to Laura, and I'm sure to Susan's family.

And Laura, I know that you're not done with this case. You know what I mean? I know that these cases live with you forever. But I do want to ask you, what's next? What are you working on next? What can we look forward to? What's coming up?

So, Amy and I are currently working on cases where DNA is not possible. That's something that we're working on right now. The cases where perhaps remains have been damaged to the point where DNA is not possible. I'm personally working on some cases where the remains of the person are no longer available, and I'm going to need to try and identify them in other ways.

And these are difficult cases, but that's why I want to work on them. Because if there's a chance to try and identify someone, I want to do that. So that's a big project that we're working on both together and separately with several law enforcement agencies ranging from the southeast to the northeast. I'm working on a fiction project as well because I like to stay busy. Of course, The Fall Line has several seasons coming up.

In November, we're working with Metro Nashville PD on 22 unidentified persons cases, DOE cases. It is a big project, but we covered several DOE cases for them in the past. There's going to be a solve I can announce soon in one of those cases. And when they asked if we wanted to cover them, those 22 cases, you can imagine what I said, which was yes.

So we have that coming up on the fall line. And this is just, I mean, Sarah, you know me, an identified person's cases are my passion area. And every case is important. But

Unidentified persons cases get the least coverage because the narrative story points that would help people tell a story about someone have been forcibly removed or removed by the environment or by elements or by time. And so I feel like trying to get those back into place is doing a service on one hand, um,

to try and identify someone, but it's also giving people a way to connect and care. And like you say, all it takes is one share. So if I can get someone, just one person, to share a story about an unidentified person, that share might be the share that helps to identify someone and reconnect them to their family and reconnect them to their name. So that's what I care about. And that's what I want to spend my life doing, you know?

Absolutely. I mean, it's incredibly important work. And again, I can't thank you enough for doing it. Again, I can't speak for all families, but for someone who, you know, I have a doe out there, my sister, and I can't thank you enough. But before we go, where can people find you? Where can they find your podcast? And where can they find your book, Lay Them to Rest? Okay, so you can find me. I made a public Instagram, which is laythemtorest.

uh, cause I am secretive and hide my family. Um, otherwise I don't blame you. Yeah. You know, you know, I am, um, Sarah knows I love talking about myself. Um, so, uh, and then you can find fall line podcast on Instagram. I think it's fallen podcast. Um, we're on Tik TOK where I am slowly being educated by Sarah on how to tick and talk. Um, and, uh, Oh,

OST is on there too, and so am I under Laura Norton. It's a painful experience, but if you visit me there, be kind. I'm old. Laura's becoming a TikTok sensation. We're going to get her to go viral. Everyone, go follow her right now on TikTok. Make her incredibly uncomfortable and make her the next TikTok star. You can watch the videos where my dog is moving the camera, and I'm confused about...

how to turn off music on filters and stuff. It's a grandma moment, but it's cute. I hope.

Um, and, uh, OST, uh, one strange things on Instagram, things like that. I occasionally get on Facebook to post a link or Twitter to post a link, but I find it, you know, uh, uncomfortable. And as for my book, um, it's available for pre-order everywhere. Um, if you order before October 17th, so by the 16th, there are some pre-order bonuses available, but really, I mean, you can buy it anywhere. You can buy a book.

And, you know, if you're a teacher, it's a good book for academia. It's also a good just read, I think, if you're interested in forensic science, true crime. And, you know, that's about it. I think that's all my stuff, Sarah, right? Wait, wait, wait. I have pre-ordered this book and I did not get a bonus. What is this bonus you're talking about that I am apparently not clued in on, Laura? Okay.

Well, so, you know, this is the complexity of life. You have to scroll down to the bottom of the Hachette page and enter your receipt, and then you can get – there's various bonuses listed. There's a podcast episode because I really wanted to write more about the Dardenne family's case.

which I wasn't able to fit into the book because I'm really concerned about it. The Dardenne family, their case kind of stalled out after Tommy Lenzels confessed to their case, but then he retracted his confession. So it just,

didn't get investigated any further. So I did a bonus episode on their case. That is a bonus for buying the book early. And then if you do two, if you buy two for some reason, the kind of person that buys two books, there's a Zoom hangout that I'm doing with Josh Hallmark. And we're going to talk about how we use databases like NamUs to work on our unidentified persons cases that we work on.

All right, I'm going to buy a second book and I'm going to crash your Zoom.

I mean, I would have invited you anyway. Invite Crash. I mean, sit there respectfully and quietly. Do not crash her Zoom. But you guys, go buy her book. Pre-order the book. Get the bonuses. Again, it is Lay Them to Rest. It's out October 17th this year, 2023. And if you buy it before, you can get all those amazing bonuses. All the links will be in the episode description. But pre-order it everywhere. Or if you're listening after October 17th, buy it now.

Laura, I just want to thank you again. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for coming on the show and talking about your book. No, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. If you have any information about Susan Lund, please call the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office tip line at 618-242-TIPS. As always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney, and is a Voices for Justice media original. If you love what we do here, please take a moment to rate and review the show in your podcast player. It helps us and helps more people find these cases in need of justice. Welcome to the secret after show. The air is not on because the weather has finally broken Arizona, and I'm so excited about it. That being said...

I might actually be moving back into the closet, you guys. I'm trying to just make this audio the best it can be, and I'm going to experiment moving back into the closet, especially now that it is not 8,000 degrees outside. So I'll let you know which episode actually gets recorded in there, and you guys can tell me if it's better or not. Every time, I feel like you guys tell me that it sounds exactly the same, but...

I will do anything to make this audio quality as high as possible to attract as many people as possible to listen to these cases. That being said, let's talk about Susan Lund. Now, of course, I want to give a huge thank you again to my friend, Laura Norton, friend of the show, friend of the true crime community, Miss Laura Norton.

Of course, again, I want to tell you, go check out her book, Lay Them to Rest. It really is fantastic. If you like true crime, if you like to know how these things happen behind the scenes before you get to that big press conference moment, check out her book. It really does explain everything. And I will tell you, I learned a thing or two. It's absolutely fantastic. I'm not just saying that because she's my friend. I promise you, it is a book you will love.

And of course, more importantly, you know, this is still an unsolved case, and I really hope that that book draws more attention to Susan. Because yes, she was identified, and that is a huge win in this case. And of course, from what I understand, brought her family a lot of answers, but not all the answers they could have in this case. So please, please share.

Now, I do have a new reading and watching for you. It's just watching, okay? I can't tell you. I feel like I'm never going to be able to tell you about all the books because I usually read a lot of them for cases or sometimes they're not true crime related. So if you want to hear what I'm reading that's not true crime related, let me know. I do try to keep it very true crime in this after show. But if for some reason you would like to know what I'm reading just for fun, you let me know.

I did watch something that is true crime. I mean, it is true crime. It's not your typical true crime. It's not typically what I report on. But for those of you who don't know, I was obsessed with an E show, you know, like E exclamation mark, the TV channel. I feel so dated saying this. I haven't had cable in a long time, but...

Did anybody else used to watch Pretty Wild on there? I swear it was only on for like one season. Because if you guys don't know, it features Alexis Nyers from The Bling Ring. And I think it was during the filming of the pilot that the FBI like knocked on her door and they're like, open up. We know that you, you know, stole from all these celebrities or whatever. I mean, they definitely didn't say that, but you guys know what I mean. So I watched

The Bling Ring documentary by Aaron Lee Carr on HBO. It is called The Ringleader, The Case of the Bling Ring, and what it does is feature never before. Okay, so let me back up. What it does is it talks about this woman, Rachel. Well, I mean, they were teenagers at the time.

But basically, she, this woman, Rachel, was named as the ringleader of the bling ring. And I guess let me back up even further. If you don't know what the bling ring is, like first, where have you been? This has been something that's been on my mind for like a decade. It's basically these...

I can't say that they were all privileged, but, you know, these kids in, like, Calabasas and these very affluent neighborhoods around California who got together and began robbing celebrities. They robbed Paris Hilton a bunch of times. They robbed Lindsay Lohan, Orlando Bloom, Audrina Patridge from the Hills. They robbed all sorts of people. And I guess it's, like, my version of—I know it's horrible, and let's just be real. Like,

robbing somebody really does destroy their peace of mind. You know, I believe it was Lindsay Lohan that said that she never felt safe at home again. And so there are very serious elements to this. And I'm not trying to downplay that. But it's, it was like my version of reality TV. I don't do The Bachelor or like Love Island or whatever. I did Bling Ring. So I've been following this case for a very long time. And

And the ringleader, or the person that everyone said was the ringleader, finally speaks out in this documentary. And it was really well done. And more importantly, I just love Erin Lee Carr, to be totally honest with you. And you probably know who she is, even if you don't think you know who she is. So she actually produced Britney vs. Spears, I Love You Now Die, Mommy Dead and Dearest.

She's produced a ton of true crime documentaries, and this is another one. So that is what I'm watching. And if anybody is interested in The Bling Ring, I definitely recommend it. It was just like kind of a continuation to this story and really getting Rachel's side of things, which has never, ever been told before. So if you enjoyed, for lack of a better word, consuming this story, I definitely recommend watching this.

Again, this is The Ringleader, The Case of the Bling Ring, and you can find it on HBO. This is not sponsored. I was not paid to say this. It's just genuinely what I was watching that was true crime applicable.

Other than that, let's move right into our segment of hope, which actually does correlate with the entertainment industry as well. And you guys probably know if you follow the podcast on Instagram, I did post about this. I am talking about there finally being an arrest in the murder of Tupac.

So I am reading directly from APnews.com. The title says, Last living suspect in 1996 drive-by shooting of Tupac Shakur indicted in Las Vegas on murder charge. And this was from September 29th, 2023. So again, just a few days ago, like we always try to do here.

And it was a crazy week for true crime. There were so many stories that I could have used for this segment of Hope, but I do try to just focus on one. So let's keep talking about Tupac. The article reads, Dwayne Davis has long been known to investigators as one of four suspects identified early in the investigation. He isn't the accused gunman.

but was described as the group's ringleader by authorities Friday at a news conference and in court. In Nevada, you can be charged with a crime, including murder, if you help someone commit the crime. Dwayne Davis was the shot caller for this group of individuals that committed this crime, said Las Vegas Police Homicide Lieutenant Jason Johanson, and he orchestrated the plan that was carried out.

Davis himself has admitted in interviews and in his 2019 tell-all memoir, Compton Street Legend, that he provided the gun used in the drive-by shooting. Davis, now 60, was arrested early Friday while on a walk near his home on the outskirts of Las Vegas.

Yeah, so it looks like the grand jury also voted to add a sentencing enhancement to the murder charge for gang activity that could add up to 20 years. So again, this makes our segment of hope because it really has been so long. I mean...

I mean, honestly, one of my, it's weird, but one of my most vivid memories with Alyssa, and it's not Tupac, don't fight me, but was when we found out Biggie Smalls died. I remember exactly where we were, and I remember both of us crying. And, you know, this has been something that's been on my mind for a really long time. You know, both of their murders, honestly. So I'm just really glad that there seems to be some type of resolution there.

I love that all these older cases are getting solved. People are getting charges. It just...

After fighting for so long and hearing and seeing so many comments about Alyssa's case that, you know, would say horrible things like it's been so long, nothing's going to happen. It's really cool to see so many cases getting some movement after so many years. So that is our segment of hope. Of course, I send all the love to Tupac's family and everyone, I mean, all his loved ones. I think he touched so many lives and just seeing this is incredible.

Really cool. And hopefully there's some type of resolution. But as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.