Angela Hammond
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This is Jessica Knoll, host of the new series Back in Crime. If you're a follower of true crime, you're probably familiar with some of the most shocking stories from our history. Horrific tragedies like the Columbine Massacre. He turned the gun straight at us and shot. Oh my God, the window went out. And the kid standing there with me, I think he got hit. Okay. Oh God. And notorious criminals like cult leader Charles Manson.

In a scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss Tate and her husband, screen director Roman Poliansky. But what if we were to turn back the hands of time and relive these events as they unfolded? Follow along each week as we take a fresh look at crimes from the past. Back in Crime is available now.

Voices for Justice is a podcast that uses adult language and discusses sensitive and potentially triggering topics, including violence, abuse, and murder. This podcast may not be appropriate for younger audiences. All parties are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some names have been changed or omitted per their request or for safety purposes. Listener discretion is advised. My name is Sarah Turney and this is Voices for Justice.

Today I'm discussing the case of Angela Hammond. Out of the over 1,300 segments of Unsolved Mysteries co-creator Terry Dunmuir helped produce, when asked to create a list of his top 10 creepiest episodes, he named Angela's case as number one.

In 2020, he told Vulture, quote, random crimes tend to be the scariest. The ones that frighten me the most are when these people are doing everything right. All she's doing is talking to her boyfriend on a payphone. She's not engaging in any kind of risky behavior or anything. Then suddenly this happens, end quote. This is the case of Angela Hammond.

On the night of Thursday, April 4th, 1991, 20-year-old Angela Hammond was doing what a lot of young adults here in the U.S. tend to do on any given boring night, especially in smaller towns like Clinton, Missouri. She was just driving around in her friend's car listening to music and talking.

Earlier that day, she'd gone to a barbecue at her mom's house with her fiancé, 18-year-old Rob Schaefer. Angela and Rob met at the end of 1990. She was very well-liked and popular, and he was a star athlete. They fell in love, got pregnant, and then in 1991, Rob proposed, promising to take care of Angela forever.

Angela worked nights at a bank, and Rob had plans to advance through the military. They even managed to get their own home. By all accounts, it seems both Rob and Angela were really excited about creating this new life together, and their families were happy for them.

After the barbecue, around 10pm, Angela drops Rob off at his parents' house so he could watch his younger brother. Then she drove to the nearby food barn about 7 blocks away, where she parked her car and was picked up by her best friend Kyla. The plan was for Rob to come meet her in town after his mom got home and he was officially relieved of his babysitting duties. But at 4 months along, the pregnancy was weighing on Angela. After driving around town for about 2 hours, she's ready to call it a night.

So Kyla drops Angela back off at her car in the Food Barn parking lot at the corner of 2nd and Jefferson around 11 p.m. Angela doesn't have a home phone, so she uses one of the payphones at Food Barn to call Rob and tell him that she's canceling their plans and just going home for the night. Angela calls Rob at 11.15 p.m., and as expected, he's at his parents' house watching his younger brother. Angela tells Rob she's too tired to stay out, and Rob says he understands. They end up talking for about 20 minutes.

Then, Angela tells Rob that a strange truck is circling the block. She describes it as a green, older model Ford pickup truck. Angela is aware, but not really concerned. But then, the truck pulls up next to the phone booth. As this is happening, Angela is describing what the driver looks like to Rob, a

a white, very dirty-looking male, possibly in his 20s or 30s, with a mustache, beard, and glasses, and he's wearing overalls. She also describes more about the truck, saying it has a transparent decal that covers the entire back window. It's basically just a fish jumping out of water. The man then uses the phone next to Angela, gets back in his truck, and begins looking for something with a flashlight.

Now again, Angela's describing all of this to Rob as it's happening over the phone. And at this point, Rob tells her to just turn around and ask the guy if he needs to use the phone, thinking maybe the other phone was broken. So Angela asks, but the man said no. He was just gonna try to make his call again in a few minutes. At this point, Rob just offers to go down there. He's only seven blocks away, but Angela says no, it's fine, and they just continue their conversation.

Then it happens. Rob hears Angela scream, and what he assumes is the receiver hitting the side of the phone booth. Rob says that in that moment, he didn't even think. He just dropped the phone, got into the car, and started driving right toward Angela. On his way to the payphone, he sees what looks like a yellow truck speeding toward him in the opposite lane, and a woman struggling in the front seat. When they pass by each other, he hears Angela yelling, Robbie. So

So Rob slams into reverse, turns around, and follows the truck for about two miles. But when it makes a sharp right turn, Rob tries to make the same turn and feels the car start to die. And then the transmission fails. He comes to a complete stop and just watches the truck, Angela, and his unborn baby get further and further away from him.

He says from here, all he sees are brake lights and dust. Then he flags down another driver and makes it to the police department just after midnight.

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Now, we don't know a lot about how her car or the scene was processed, or what, if any, evidence was taken and retained. But we do know that her purse was still on the seat. And after searching the car, the only items identified as missing appeared to be her keys and her driver's license, which, according to Angela's father, Chris Hammond, she was known to keep in her pocket. Right off the bat, it doesn't seem like burglary was the motive, which means detectives had to act fast.

Who was driving that truck and where are they now? When they went to look for registrations of similar trucks, they found 1,600 potential matches. So they knew this wasn't something they were going to solve that night.

By the time the news about Angela got around the next day, people were terrified. Angela's family had been in Clinton, Missouri for three generations. Clinton was the definition of a small American farm town. The population was just under 9,000, and they'd just never had anything as horrific as this happen before. Angela's mom, Marsha Cook, told the Kansas City Star that Angela probably didn't even know enough to be afraid of this man when he approached her.

But despite this immense shock and fear in the community, they came together to help. On Sunday, around 250 volunteers searched the woods and fields of Clinton and Henry County for Angela. Though nothing of note was found, Marcia said that she was touched by how many people came out to help, saying you just don't realize how many friends you have until something like this happens.

Overall, the searches for Angela were extensive. Officers and volunteers searched by land, air, and water. Residents were also asked to search old barns, sheds, and abandoned buildings on their property.

But when those searches slowed down and eventually stopped, both of Angela's parents kept going for weeks. Angela's father, Chris, told the Olathe Daily News, quote, We searched creek beds, all old houses, barns, and wells every day from daylight to dark. After two weeks of doing that, the leads started drying up.

While the community was more than willing to lend resources or just a helping hand to help find Angela, rumors began to swirl about what could have happened to her. And we know how these things go. Rob is her fiancé and the last person to have seen her. The story of what happened to Angela was also just so insanely horrific that people had a hard time believing it.

By April 11th, the Kansas City Star reports that the FBI interviewed Rob for five hours, and also Angela's 17-year-old ex-boyfriend Bill Barker for three hours. Polygraph exams were administered to both. Damon Parsons, the detective working on Angela's case, is quoted saying that at this point, everyone is considered a suspect, but Rob and Bill were interviewed as, quote, primary witnesses, end quote.

Within a week, Rob and Bill are cleared. This appears to be in part because three witnesses eventually come forward and corroborate Rob's story. One woman said she drove by the parking lot right before Angela went missing and saw the truck being described.

The other two women apparently got much closer. These women say that they saw Angela using the phone and actually thought it was a friend of theirs. So they pull into the parking lot next to the truck, and they see the driver kind of lean back in the driver's seat, but they don't really think much of it. And when they look at Angela and realize it's not their friend, they drive away.

While Angela's father had the same concerns most people did with Rob's story at first, Angela's family does not believe either Rob or Bill was involved in her abduction. So detectives look outside of Angela's inner circle and begin looking at other unsolved crimes in the area, looking for any connection. And they find not one, but two crimes within an 80-mile radius that they want to look further into.

The first was 42-year-old Trudy Darby. She worked as a clerk at K&D Convenience Store in Max Creek, Missouri. On the night of January 19th, 1991, at about 10 p.m., she was preparing to close down her store when she noticed a strange man outside. So, she called her son and asked him to come down to the store and sit with her while she finished her shift. He gets there in about 10 minutes and sees his mom's car in the parking lot and her purse and coat in the window. Ever

Everything appears normal, but when he enters the store, he calls out for his mom. Then, he sees the cash register open and the money missing. Trudy's body was found two days later at the Nyangwa River. She'd been sexually assaulted and shot twice.

The second unsolved case investigators looked into was that of 36-year-old Cheryl Ann Kenney. Cheryl was last seen working her shift at a convenience store when she went missing on the night of February 27th, 1991. She was scheduled to work until midnight at the Quality Convenience Store in Nevada, Missouri, but it was apparently a slow night, so she decides to close down the store early. Records show that she clocked out at 10 p.m. and then set the alarm and locked the doors at 10.17 p.m.,

Her car was later recovered from the parking lot of the store. There was no evidence of a struggle or a break-in, and nothing was missing from the store. There was also no trail of where Cheryl went. Police have been quoted as saying it's as if she just vanished.

Now, while the police are investigating a possible connection between the three cases, they reiterate to the public that they're just covering their bases, and so far, no definitive connection has been made. They were basically just slamming their heads against the wall and trying to do anything they could to help find Angela.

By mid-April, the Missouri Rural Crime Squad is called in to help. Their focus is finding the truck. This is a group of officers from several different counties in Missouri, and they tell the media specifically that they will not be investigating any possible link between Angela, Trudy, and Cheryl's cases.

In my research, I found that basically the way that this squad works is they have five days to come up with some actionable lead they think will help move the case forward. Or they have to pack it up and go home. So they are digging through the 1,600 possible matches to the truck, the witness statements, the interviews. I have to imagine, really, the entire case file.

But after five days of investigating, they don't find anything they can move forward with and are taken off the case.

But the Clinton police are not alone in this investigation. They have help from the FBI and Henry County authorities. By May 4th, one month since Angela was taken, the reward for information is up to $11,000, with $5,000 of that coming from Angela's grandparents. Investigators say that they've followed about 500 leads, but they haven't been able to find a lot of new information. And that's how the case sits for a while.

By October, Angela's loved ones are just trying to navigate how to start picking up the pieces of their lives. Rob begins his training as a National Guardsman in Virginia, and Angela's mother is planning to finally use a Florida vacation she'd won at work. She said it was really hard to leave town, but she knew she had to take a step back from it all.

At this point, investigators say that they've exhausted all leads in Angela's case. The reward is now up to $16,000. They need someone to come forward with information, and someone actually does.

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In December 1991, Angela's case is back in the news again, when a man named Russell Smith from Lebo, Manitoba in Canada says he saw Angela leaving a drugstore in Selkirk. Now, this apparently happened three months prior in September, but the news is just breaking in December. He says she got into a green pickup truck with a white top and a mural in the rear window. This sighting was not confirmed by anyone else.

But Russell says that he's certain that the woman he saw was Angela. He told the Kansas City Star, quote, I know I saw that girl. I know that for a fact. I may not remember someone's name, but I never forget a face. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police showed Angela's picture to residents in the area, but said that after exhausting all leads, they weren't able to locate Angela or whoever Russell may have seen that day.

But even though this lead didn't pan out, it got people talking about Angela again. And as the new year began, the whole town was buzzing around the news that Unsolved Mysteries planned to feature the case. While Angela's case did get quite a bit of media attention, this would be the largest feature by far. When the episode premiered in February 1992, Angela's segment reenacting the phone call and hearing Rob speak about that night left a lasting impression on viewers.

Which is really what you want. You want people to remember these cases. So they talk about it, tell a friend, and hopefully generate some leads. And investigators were ready for this. They called in officers from 11 different counties, all to work the anticipated onslaught of leads after the episode aired. And of course, the show did generate quite a few calls. Approximately 700.

But authorities say that in the end, none of them ended up giving them anything substantial. I mean, obviously, it's just a rollercoaster of emotions for Angela's family, and the world is seeing it all unfold. By the fall of 1992, the case catches the attention of someone who knows what Angela's family is going through.

Janice McCall. She's the mother of missing 18-year-old Stacey McCall. If you're a long-time listener of Voices for Justice or just very familiar with true crime cases, that name should ring a bell. Stacey McCall is one of three women who went missing from Springfield, Missouri in June 1992. You may know the case as the Springfield Three, which I covered back in September 2022. I'll have a link in the description of this episode if you want to learn more.

So, Janice reaches out to Angela's mother, Marsha, and at first, Marsha says she didn't really want to connect. She didn't want to admit that she might be in the same boat as Janice. And Janice told the Springfield News leader that she understood, quote, It's not a bond you want to have, but at least there's someone else going through this. It was kind of like meeting a long-lost friend. I didn't want to upset her. I knew she didn't want to put herself in my shoes. End quote.

But they do link up, and in November 1992, both women appeared on an hour-long episode of Oprah discussing unsolved crimes. And this was huge. At this time, Oprah reached about 14 million viewers daily. Throughout the program, an 800 number flashed on the screen, urging viewers to call in with any tips they may have. But just like unsolved mysteries, nothing really came of this for Angela's case.

Despite this, Marsha and Janice kept in touch, and even planned a joint prayer vigil for Angela, Stacey McCall, and the two women who went missing with Stacey, Suzanne Streeter and Cheryl Levitt.

In April 1993, another search for Angela was conducted. This was actually prompted by the editor of the Clinton newspaper. He used to be a police officer, and he said that in his time in law enforcement, he had success utilizing psychics to help get some answers. So he calls up one of these psychics and asks her to work on Angela's case. This leads them to a farm in Lafayette County, about 40 miles north of the phone booth.

Now, the odd thing about this is police had already interviewed the man living on the farm. He was renting a house on the land. They'd received a tip that the truck seen with Angela that night was abandoned either on or near the farm. They'd also received a tip from an informant that a green pickup truck and body were buried on the farm.

Now, apparently the abandoned truck appeared to be a blue Chevy, not a green Ford, and after the initial search of the property, they didn't find a buried truck or body. But in March 1993, the psychic picks out this farm and says that she spoke to Angela's spirit while walking the land. She believes two men were involved in Angela's death, and that Angela knew one of them.

She also says that Angela was kept on this farm for six weeks, then moved to another location, and is now by some type of rock wall, like a bridge or a basement.

But the Clinton Police Department immediately dismissed these claims. Police Chief Bob Pattinson tells the media, quote, I don't have any faith in psychics. The particular person that's being looked at as a possible suspect, we've 95% cleared him. He has a pretty good alibi. He took a lie detector. And we feel like he passed it. End quote.

But this doesn't really do anything to calm the public down. The rumors about this psychic are swirling around town so heavily that the Clinton police finally say fine, we'll bring cadaver dogs to the farm and either find a body or put these rumors to rest. So the first weekend of April 1993, five dogs and 20 officers searched the farm. And all they find are a few dead animals and exactly zero evidence of what happened to Angela.

So again, the case just sits. In May 1995, half-brothers 20-year-old Jesse Rush and 34-year-old Marvin Chaney were arrested for the kidnapping and murder of Trudy Darby.

This ignites more fire in Angela's case as people try to connect these brothers to her abduction. And then another lead comes in. In June 1995, a man in Sioux City, Iowa says Angela and her child sat next to him at church. And on top of that, he says Angela told him that she wants the police to stop looking for her.

Now, while it was confirmed that this man was in church that day and sat next to a woman with a small child, no one else could confirm his story that the woman was Angela. And after investigating the possible sighting, the police don't consider it to be credible. In my research of Angela's case, this is really where most of the investigation stops. Trudy Darby's killers are convicted for their crimes, while Sherrilyn Kenney's disappearance remains unsolved.

In the end, investigators never find a definitive link between the three cases. From here, there's almost nothing for over 25 years. And then, in 2021, Angela is back in the news. This is when Clinton PD reveals that an overlooked clue from the day Angela was taken may hold the key to cracking the case. And the theory they present isn't one that anyone could have guessed.

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Hear the story on Where's Dear. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. By April 2021, it's been 30 years since Angela went missing. Despite massive searches, a ton of media attention, sightings, and psychics, authorities still don't know who took Angela or where she could possibly be. The trail truly ends at the dirt road her fiancé Rob watched Angela be taken down that night.

But then, on the 30th anniversary, the Clinton Police Department makes a post to their Facebook page, saying a letter one of their informants received, postmarked for April 4th, 1991, the day Angela went missing, was overlooked.

Okay, so here's what happened. A few months before making this post, the Clinton PD got a voicemail from an anonymous caller, and they discussed details from that letter that had never been released to the public. This prompts investigators to go back to Angela's file, and they say that after looking it over three to four times, they find the letter the caller described, along with more detail about the contents.

Let me just read what the Clinton PD posted to their Facebook page. It reads in part, quote, "'There are still several active and open leads being considered. One of those leads originates from the Lake of the Ozarks region. A confidential informant played a crucial role in disrupting a significant illegal narcotics operation by testifying in a court proceeding.'

When the informant's identity was disclosed during the case, he received a cryptic letter composed of cut-and-paste characters in the style of a ransom letter one might see in a movie about kidnapping. The letter addresses the informant by the number that had been assigned to him to protect his identity before the court proceeding.

It also mentions the informant's estranged wife by first name. The letter was postmarked April 4th, 1991, the exact date that Angela Hammond was abducted late that evening. The informant's wife and his daughter, also named Angela, were living in Clinton, Missouri at that time.

After speaking with several people of interest and potential witnesses, the theory developed by investigators is that, in retribution for the informant providing information that led to the prosecution and disruption of this criminal enterprise, a person or persons involved in the criminal enterprise planned and executed the kidnapping of the informant's daughter.

Some mistake was made as to the identity of the targeted Angie, who had some physical resemblance to Angela Hammond, resulting in Hammond's abduction. While the theory seems incredible, investigators have come across information that lends credibility to it and have so far been unable to refute it.

This information is being publicly provided in part now with a plea. If you have heard a story like this one, or you have any information that could be related to this leg of the investigation, please get in contact with Clinton Police Investigators. A photo of a copy of the letter has been added to this post with the wife's name and the confidential informant number redacted to protect the privacy of that family.

Very recently, a person left an anonymous telephone message for us regarding the Angela Hammond case. That person specifically mentioned two names. You did not provide us a means to re-contact you. If that person is reading this message, please re-contact us so that we can speak with you in real time. We will protect your identity." End quote.

You can find a picture of this letter on the Voices for Justice podcast website and social media pages. But it reads, quote, Hello, number redacted. We know who you are, number redacted. People like you deserve what you get. We know where your foxy daughter is at. She will see us soon. Tell, redacted, she has our deepest sympathy in her further loss. Goodbye, redacted. End quote.

Now, while whoever made this Facebook post said that Angela had some physical resemblance to the daughter of the informant also named Angela, another officer was quoted as saying the resemblance between the two isn't just similar, it's striking. Now, authorities told Angela's mother about this theory a few months prior to making this post, but this is the first time they've gone public with the theory that Angela may have been taken as a case of mistaken identity.

But it seems like with so many leads in this case, this caused a huge firestorm of media that ultimately didn't lead anywhere. As far as we know, the person who left the voicemail did not respond to these pleas. And if there was any DNA retained from that letter, the results of any testing are unknown. While this does seem to be the most credible theory yet, Angela's case remains unsolved.

Which brings me right to our call to action. Unfortunately, Angela's mother passed away shortly after this Facebook post in May 2021.

But the investigator on her case since 2006, Paul Abbott, told the media that Angela's case has never been considered cold, and as long as he works it, it never will. They just need someone to come forward with information. So please share Angela's case, and especially the plea from the Clinton Police Department for this anonymous caller to come forward. There is always hope. As a reminder...

Angela Marie Hammond was 20 years old and 4 months pregnant when she went missing on April 4th, 1991. She is white with brown eyes and light brown hair, is 4 feet 11 inches tall and weighed approximately 140 pounds at the time of her disappearance.

She was last seen wearing a white shirt with black spots, black slacks, and tennis shoes. As of this recording, Angela would now be in her 50s, and her child would be in their 30s. Anyone with information about the disappearance of Angela Hammond is asked to contact the Clinton Police Department at 660-885-2679.

Anyone with information about the disappearance of Cheryl Ann Kenny is asked to contact the Nevada Police Department at 417-448-5100. But, as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney, and is a Voices for Justice media original. If you love what we do here, please don't forget to follow, rate, and review the show on your podcast player. It's an easy and free way to help us and help more people find these cases in need of justice. And for even more content or to just support the show, you can join the Voices for Justice Patreon at patreon.com slash voicesforjustice.

Welcome to the Secret After Show. There are a few things I want to talk about when it comes to Angela's case. I am sure it'll come as no surprise that I want to talk about her relationship with Janice McCall. All I really want to say is, um, it really touched me, and what she said was spot on. Like, you kind of dread meeting each other because you know that you are in the same boat even if you don't want to acknowledge it.

But in the end, you do help each other. At least in my experience. There's something I actually tell some of the families that I meet that have become great friends. Julie Murray, Kelsey German. I should say Kelsey Siebert now. But basically, it's I love you and I wish I never met you.

Obviously, it's no secret that I love when families come together and help each other. And I'll get to that. That's kind of a theme in this after show today. I know, huge surprise. But I did have a question about this case.

One that I couldn't really fit into the episode, those two witnesses, right? Those two women who pulled up next to the booth and saw the man in the truck, saw Angela making the call, realized it was not their friend. Why didn't Angela tell Rob about the two women in the car driving up? Or did she and we just don't know about it? I don't know. That was one question I was left with.

There was one more thing that I couldn't really confirm, so I didn't put it in the episode. And that was a few reports about, um...

Angela using a credit card to make this phone call. So I even did the research. I was like, wait a minute, 1991. Were credit cards accepted at phone booths? Yes, they were for about a decade before that and onward. So I was extremely incorrect about my assumption. But yeah, I still can't find, you know, a bunch of sources. I couldn't find enough credible sources, I should say, that talk about Angela using a credit card to make this call.

And I guess the only reason I'm kind of... I feel like my voice went out. I guess the only reason I'm kind of stuck on this is I think it would give us an extremely accurate timeline because there are some questions about that. I mean...

I basically landed on that 11-15 time because that's what's in most official police reporting. But in most of the reporting that mentions the credit card, they use a different timeline. So I don't know, that was just one of those things, right? I wonder about the timeline, and of course I wonder if it was ever recovered from the scene. Was it recovered? Is there DNA? I don't know. I have questions.

But overall, um, this was a crazy case, and that twist at the end, you guys, I don't know. I just hope that that person who made that anonymous call comes forward. It's been so long, and Angela's family deserves answers.

But as I warned, there is a theme in this after show. It was not intentional, but as I started, I do, I have started like outlining these segments so that I don't go off into crazy tangents. But that theme is just families helping families. And, you know, as we move on to this segment about what's happening with me, it is full steam ahead with my new show, Media Pressure.

And if you haven't heard of Media Pressure, where have you been? You guys, I am so bad at plugging things. I feel so cheesy. But Media Pressure is my baby. It is something I have been developing for a very long time. I have a list of families that want to do this show, and I am so excited. But if you haven't heard...

Season 1 is going to be the untold story of Maura Murray as told by Julie Murray. And like I said, I'm just full steam ahead with that project. It is taking up mostly all of my time right now, which is fantastic. That's exactly what I want to be doing. Other than that, right along with our theme, I swear this was not planned.

I am reading a book that I can't tell you about, but I will give you a hint. It was written by the mother of a victim, and that case will come out next month on the podcast. I don't know, you guys, we're seeing all sorts of family-led media all around, and it's making my heart happy, which brings me right into our segment of hope.

And that is, of course, the Colonial Parkway murders. Or I should say, the break that's been made in the case. Now, if you don't know about these cases, it's basically a string of murders believed to possibly involve up to eight people. Now, some believe it's a serial killer, others don't. Some think that there's even more victims. But essentially, there's a string of murders that happened at a really popular spot in Virginia that was kind of known as like a lover's lane.

a place where young people came to be with their partners. But just this month, the news broke that the late Allen W. Wilmer Sr. of Virginia was responsible for two of these murders. Now, he died in 2017, so we don't really know where the case is going to go from here. But it seems like these families, or at least some of them, will get some answers, which is why it makes our segment of hope.

Now, I am also being intentionally vague about these details, because I want to direct you to a much better source. Someone who is not me. If you want to hear about all the cases and this breaking news, I recommend listening to the podcast Mind Over Murder. It's actually co-hosted by Bill Thomas, brother of victim Kathy Thomas. I met Bill a few years ago, and he is just a fantastic guy.

So if you want to hear all about the Colonial Parkway murders, go over to Mind Over Murder. That's where you'll get, in my opinion, the best, most intimate and up-to-date coverage of the case.

And Bill is already talking about this new update and his reaction to it all. I would really love if we can kind of go over there and flood their feed with love and follows and positive reviews. I know that in my experience, like, no matter the news you get about your person and true crime, it's just hard to hear. So please, again, go over to Mind Over Murder, show them some love, listen to the update, and just support Bill.

But as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.