Saying the Quiet Part Out Loud
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Listeners, this is just your friendly reminder that we have some live shows coming up very, very soon. Los Angeles, we know you've been waiting patiently. We've never done it live. So join us. Tickets are finally available now. And we'll see you at the Ford Sunday, July 14th.

And the Ford better be full because I will see Vibe Check listeners in the wild in Los Angeles saying hi to me and to Zach. If you're in this city with us, you have to be there. You must. You must. But before that, even sooner, we'll be in Boston at WBUR City Space on Friday, June 7th. That place means a lot to me because WBUR is where I got my start in radio.

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Hello, spring chickens. And by spring chickens, I mean allergic chickens. I had it last week. Saeed has it this week. Struggling, honey. Struggling. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

And this week, we have Saeed Jones surviving, or trying to survive. Fighting for my damn life. Due to allergies, Sam Sanders last week, we were all together in New York, and he was fighting for his life. And Saeed told me how to fix it. He was like, take this Sudafed. I got you. It worked.

And now I have no Suda fan in my house. - This is why you shouldn't do nice things for people. Karma is not real. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Do nice things for people, karma is real. But beyond all of that, this week we're talking about the digital guillotine or the digitine, I think is what the youth are calling it. It's also known as the celeb blockade. It's where celebrities are getting blocked in mass and it's picking up a lot of steam. So we're gonna dive into that today and what it all means.

And then also we're talking about the collective feeling that we're all feeling, at least here on this show, of some fatigue around the presidential campaign and Trump in this historic moment where Trump is going through things no president has gone through before. And we are just not paying any attention whatsoever. That man's making news every day.

And it feels like it just goes over my head because I'm tired. I think it's like political burnout. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, it does feel that way. Well, before we get into all of that, let's check in with each other. How are we doing? Saeed, I feel so bad. You are struggling. I am struggling. My eyes are watering. My nose is all congested. But beyond this, since I'm already on a negative note, I will say...

I'm anxious about the summer. I've realized, I don't know if I'm a summer person. It's very busy. I feel like,

Particularly for gay men, like, you know, we have a social calendar, body stuff comes up as well, you know, and I've got a lot of change coming in my life this summer that I'll be able to share with people pretty soon. But honestly, yeah, I'm a little like, oh, will I be able to manage all of this? To hear you say that, I think of you as a fall person because I associate you so much with tailgate parties. Yeah.

I'm like, that's Saeed's time. That's when he comes alive. I love autumn tailgating season. You love a tailgate. It's also like a very, it's like literary season. All of my books have come out in the fall, you know, so yeah. But summer...

I'm glad about the weather, but the life, I don't know if I'm ready for it. I saw a TikTok this morning from Carter Gregory. He's the black queen that's very popular on TikTok. He was posting a TikTok that said, I'm not ready for Pride in two weeks. In my heart. Pride is in two weeks. Pride is two weeks. And he's not lying in Los Angeles. Pride is in two weeks. How did we forget? I totally had not even thought about that. It's comfortable. Oh, man.

Oh, man. Well, Sam, how are you doing? What's the tea? I'm okay. So we all hung out together in New York last week. But coming home this past weekend, I knew that Sunday was going to be Mother's Day, my first Mother's Day without my mother around. And so I purposefully kind of filled my day, hung with friends, took the dog for a long walk. But our dear Saeed Jones gave me a tip either day of or day before that

He said, oh yeah, by the way, for Mother's Day, delete Instagram. And he was right. I think seeing all of my friends and loved ones posting their mother's photos and posts on that day just wouldn't be good for me. So I deleted Insta for that day and it really helped. And I think my vibe with that and with navigating that holiday is just like, take care of future you. Take care of future you. If you see something coming up the road,

You can do what you can to be ready for it, you know? Yeah. I think the first kind of round of big holidays or special occasions associated with the person you are grieving, you know, are hard. And it's too much to ask of someone to just like barrel through, you know, all of this. And I think Mother's Day in particular, I was like, delete Instagram, have a plan for the day. Like, I'm like, listen, you do not want to like randomly go to brunch and like find yourself surrounded, you know? It's not because you're...

Being a Debbie Downer, you're just taking care of yourself. There you go. Yeah, I love that. And I think that's what our conversation later today is about, is about ways people are trying to take care of themselves while in a digital landscape where you have little control. And there's some ways you can take control that can be productive sometimes. So I love that you did that. It's also, you know, I've realized lately, you know, every year feels like a competition for who can find the cutest photo of them and their parent, which feels like,

weird to be competing with each other. Father's Day is getting a little, it's getting a little weird. Oh yeah. People are like, ooh, hot dad, hot mom. My mom, who I love dearly and is very beautiful. I got so many messages, people commenting on my mother's body. Whoa. From like 20 years ago. And I was like, girls, calm down. Like, this is not like really breathe. Yes. Thank you so much. She's a beautiful woman, but we don't need to talk about my mother this way. So the internet is weird. So taking breaks, Sam.

is great. Taking breaks is good. Yeah, yeah. Zach, what's your vibe? My vibe this week is a bit, I don't want to say fearful, that feels dramatic. I'm unsettled. I don't know if y'all saw this news, but OpenAI just announced their new product update. So they just released GBT40, or released the demos where you can see what it is. It's their AI assistance product, which is like AI that helps you with things. And they made the voice sound exactly like Scarlett Johansson in Her.

Oh, yeah. And it's a very friendly AI. It can perceive you. So when you're looking at the camera, it says, oh, you're in a room with books. And like, you know, there's a TV behind you. Like it's fully aware of surroundings and physical place.

And it is really, really smart. It can do things like you put the phone down when you're talking to someone in a different language. Say, you know, Sam, you're speaking Spanish. I'm speaking English. It will live translate in real time between the both of you and just do lots and lots of things. It's very smart. Have you tried it yet?

- No, I'm terrified because it's also seductive. Like she's flirty and that to me feels like a red flag. - Is it actually Scarlett Johansson's voice? - No, it's a woman. They made it sound similar and Sam Altman even referenced her in the launch. So they're like consciously doing this, which by the way, if you haven't seen her at the end, the AI abandons us. They go onto their own place. They like do all the stuff for us and leave us behind. - Here's my question though. You know, Zach, I will see all these stories about scary new AI

And then right next to those stories, I'll see reports of how the brains behind this AI is like real people trapped in warehouses on computers all day in some foreign country. Like, I often wonder how smart it actually is. You know, I was following this AI stuff when all the AI songs around Drake and Kendrick came out.

It turns out when people use those AI things to get fake Tupac voice or whatever, it's just a filter. You don't just type into the computer, give me Tupac song. You have to write the lyrics, have the beat, and then you speak into the filter so it makes it happen. And so I sometimes wonder, it's like on first glance, this stuff seems really scary.

But is it actually quite simple compared to what we think it is and not as bad? I mean, I hope. I don't know. Yeah. I think it's bad. What's really throwing me today is that the AI can perceive you. When I watched the video and the AI chat, who's very lovely, so it follows you, was like, yeah, you seem to be on a production set. This must be a nice production. Oh, wow. Giving opinions.

was the weird thing. Like I'm cool with AI that is assistive. It's just there to like respond to directions and, you know, doing admin work. But one that can actually have a full conversation with you and have opinions and feelings feels like we're beginning to walk down a path that I don't want to go down.

My issue with AI, in addition to the ethics, which I think it's a bad idea. I don't think our lawmakers understand technology well enough to make policy to protect us. And I think the scientists developing it don't care about human beings. But beyond all of that, AI requires a lot of processing skills.

And like, I was shook. It hadn't occurred to me until like a few months ago when I was finally kind of reading about it, that it takes a lot of electricity and a lot of energy to do this. And I was like, wait, my dumb ass thought like one of the strengths of AI was that it was like better for the environment. I thought that was a selling point. I don't know where I got that.

But it's not. It's the opposite. And even like electric cars, the battery to make them isn't always the most ethically done or, you know, done well with the climate in mind. So, yeah, a lot of these trappings of the future aren't as perfect as we are perceiving them. So I think people should, my big note is, have caution. If we couldn't control fake news in 2015, 2016 news cycle, how do we expect to control little Scarlett Johansson Kmart AI? Kmart AI. Yeah.

Well, before we get into this episode, we want to, as always, thank all of you who have sent us fan mail, emails, messages, all of it. It's so wonderful. And a special shout out to those of you who have subscribed on our Patreon. If you want to join that group chat, you can find us at patreon.com slash vibecheck. And it is quite active. Every time I check, I'm like, you girls are having a time, a time. All right. With that, ladies, shall we jump into today's episode? Let's do it. Let's do it.

All right, well, now we are going to talk about what's being called the digital guillotine. What did you call it, Zach? The digi... The digi-teen. Digi-teen. Digimon. I was like, it sounds like a toy. I don't see that word catching on. They're trying. Well, to kind of kick us off, you know, last week while discussing the Met Gala, we mentioned how things felt...

you know, to say the least. I think, honestly, when we think about the Met Gala, there's always been a bit of a let them eat cake subtext to the event. But Zach, you pointed out in our group text that the subtext became literal text this year. What happened? What set off this? So,

So, you know, we taped the show really quickly the next day and there's just so much content happening. But a video I did see go live that I thought nothing of it because to your point, Saeed, every year is very let them eat cake vibes. But there was an influencer there. Her name's Hailey Khalil. She was the official representative of

TikTok on the red carpet interviewing celebrities with TikTok mics. And she posted a video before she entered the gala where she's lip syncing to a track from someone saying, let them eat cake from the movie Marie Antoinette, which is actually Kirsten Dunst saying it. So that was posted. The gala happens and the gala was giving big Hunger Games energy, but that

video was the original kind of domino that ticked all this off and it just went so viral and she's now had to post apologies she's lost followers and it has inspired this movement that we're going to talk about

I mean, I find it a little funny because she's just saying out loud what all of them are doing. The quiet part loud. Yeah. I mean, they're eating the cake as they walk in these expensive gowns down this runway to this party where tickets cost 75 grand a piece. Like, come on. And she's like...

- To that point, Sam, Hailey has not been famous her whole life. She became a known entity in around 2018. She was the first winner of the Sports Illustrated model search where they picked regular people to be in the magazine. So she was the first winner. And then from there, she's built a social media career. So it's been about six years of like grinding up the ladder. - She's worked.

And then when she arrives, she's arriving as kind of like a regular person who's been watching the Met Gala from afar. And she's also working. She's on the clock. She's working too. And so she, to Saeed's point, says the quiet part loud and that loud has become booming.

And I will say to that point, she had to do another TikTok clarifying that she actually wasn't even invited to the Met Gala. She couldn't go in. She was only there as a pre-Met Gala host for E! News. So yeah, she was working. She was working. I don't know. Well, that was enough. And we're going to get to this, but I get the sense that there's a lot of animus, a lot of feelings in the environment, and she was just at the wrong place at the right time to kind of set all of this off. A TikTok user who goes by the handle LadyFromTheOutside explained the strategy this way. It

It's time for people to conduct what I want to call a digital guillotine, a digiteen, if you will. She continued, it's time to block all celebrities, influencers, and wealthy socialites who are not using their resources to help those in dire need. I'm assuming she was speaking about Gaza in particular. She said, we give them platforms. It's time to take the platforms back. And I guess her point is, you know, if you don't like a celebrity's opinions or whatever, unfollowing them isn't enough. When you block them, you impact their ad revenue.

Was that announcement of the guillotine a direct response to Khalil or a response to other celebrities? It was a combination. So it was like a beginning. So you have if you look at timelines, you have Khalil's post, but her post goes viral as all the other posts are beginning to go viral where everyone was saying, hmm, this feels off. Something's odd about this, because if people remember, you know, there were hundreds of protesters online.

on the street outside the mat protesting that were Columbia students even getting arrested. So everyone's like watching the celebrities arrive, watching these protesters get arrested. It felt weird. And then you're watching it online. And as we all know with social media right now, our social media is inundated with real-time footage

from Gaza, from Rafah with these bombs dropping, people dying. We're getting real-time reports of that. So you're having that blending with gowns from the Met Gala just felt very disturbing. So when her video went viral, and she's a huge TikTok star, huge, it just was like, huh. And I think it just helped

materialize or make tangible something people were feeling and they just scaled it really fast. And very quickly, I mean, it's been, even Craig's TikTok is all about blocking and people are blocking everywhere. - My For You page is basically all Drake memes, like making fun of him and then this now. Here's my question, because honestly, my mind changes about this about every 10 minutes.

How do you feel about this? Like, do you think this is a good idea? What's your gut response? You've seen my face this whole chat. I have so many big questions. Yeah, yeah. I do too. The math ain't math-ing for me. And I have a few questions. My first question is, what is the measure of a celebrity? How famous do they need to be for us to boycott? If the catalyst for this whole thing was,

Was someone who was literally working press at the event, is that who you count? Is an actor with 100,000 followers on TikTok who's just working in the union, do they count? I want to know first what is the measure of who we're actually going to boycott. What is the barometer? And then two, my question is when will this start to affect people's bottom line?

A lot of boycotts are asking us to spend money or not spend money. I'm thinking Budweiser, right? Like those things, you see a numeric effect right away. How long will it take for this to affect how much these folks get for sponsored posts, how much they get for gigs? It might take a while. And will this boycott last long enough to do that? This reminds me of 2020 when everyone for one day had their Instagram profiles blacked out.

Remember that one day of blackout? What did that do? And it was one day, and what did it do? And then my next question is like, even if this works, even if it gets these big celebrities who are at the Met Gala to say Palestine, to speak about something, what would Zendaya being vocal on this issue change directly about Joe Biden's foreign policy? I don't know. And so I constantly compare this kind of new protest with,

to other kinds of protests that tend to work better, and we've seen them work better over the last few months, that is bodies in the streets. Like, that seems to me to be a more powerful and direct catalyst. Yeah. I mean, a lot of my understanding of protests, a lot of my opinions come from Sarah Schulman's book, Let the Record Show, which is an excellent book about the history of ACT UP, the AIDS activist group in the 1980s and 90s. Actually, it's still active. But one thing she emphasized is that in order for protests to be effective, you need to have a clear ask.

And I think you're right, Sam. Exactly. One, we're kind of like, well, how are we gauging who we're going for? That's one thing that kind of muddies the water. But also, what exactly do you mean when you want a celebrity to speak out? What are we asking them to do? I'm honestly not sure. And I think the three of you agree. Some of these celebrities, I would rather they mind their business. I don't want DJ Khaled speaking out. Oh, God. I don't need him.

To be the mouthpiece of celebrity activism. Interesting, even though he's Palestinian-American. Exactly. And even Palestinians have been saying, please don't say anything, DJ Khaled. Yeah. I mean, what's also been interesting is, you know, when I first saw the boycotts begin, I was like, sure, if that's your gig today, you want to come out for celebrities, not saying enough, not doing enough, whatever. Celebrities live in the public space.

And part of being in the public eye creating things in the public space means that public people can engage with it. So I'm usually okay with discourse back and forth around these people in our public purview. But where it gets weird for me is when they start doing things, finally, you've pushed them to make change. And then it's, you did it too late. It's not enough. And I'm thinking, and I hate that I'm even bringing up this person.

But Joe Alwyn, Taylor Swift's ex-boyfriend, he began wearing little pins, which as we saw on SNL, they made fun of people that wear the tiny pins. But he started wearing pins. And now people are like, well, you're doing that because of the album. And you're doing it because of all these things. And we're just...

theorizing and making story around people's actions to make sense for ourselves when we're not even talking to them. It just feels like we're spiraling all the time and nothing is very concrete. Well, we're also in this moment, we're asking celebrities, many of whom make music, make TV, make movies. We're asking them to say things out loud in their lives, but we aren't seeing any of them really reflect protest or activism in their work.

A week or so ago, I pointed out to y'all that Macklemore, of all people, released a rap song in support of Palestine. Which is pretty good. It's actually pretty good. I hate to say it. I really do. He makes sense. But.

But it points out how for the last several years, we really haven't heard protest music on the radio. That's in spite of Black Lives Matter. That's in spite of the Free Palestine Movement. We're in an era where the actual art output is increasingly apolitical.

And that's not just music, I'm talking about movies. We had a blockbuster movie called Civil War that was decidedly apolitical. That's wild to me. You know, A24 just released a documentary about the insurrection.

and they have hid it from streaming. You have to pay to rent it. I haven't heard about this at all. Yeah, it's wild. And I think that speaks to how art itself has been so much more entrenched in capitalism or the capitalistic machine. So I'm not saying when Muhammad Ali was fighting and also making political statements that he wasn't looking at brand sponsors. He was, he was an athlete. But there was something different about that time. There felt like there was more of a distance between them

I think when you say distance, what you mean is a lack of media consolidation. Increasingly, a lot of like when you think about the Met Gala, all these fashion houses under a company like LVMH or whatever, it's harder than ever to be independent as someone who was a part of these industries. There are fewer record labels, fewer TV companies, fewer fashion houses. So if you want to be in good graces and keep getting business, you got to tell that company line. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like, you know, now these and then you have celebrities that are also building businesses that are under these. So you think like Rihanna, Rihanna is under LVMH. She has not said anything politically. Yeah. She has to think about a whole galaxy of business relationships. And she's like, you know what, I'm gonna shut up because I don't want to rock the boat too much because my money doesn't just come from one song. It comes from a lot of the things.

Well, to that point, I mean, when we think of celebrities like Nina Simone or Marlon Brando or Sidney Poitier, they were celebrities of the era. But I feel like celebrities now are exponentially more wealthy for all the reasons you pointed out. So they're just way more tied to the capitalist structure. Yeah. And we'll notice with Macklemore, I think a big part of why he made a song so forceful on this issue, he is an independent artist not backed by a big label. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a part of it. And what I would say, and I can't believe we're like giving Malcolm more his flowers. Who did he beat for a Grammy? Kendrick Lamar. And then he texted Kendrick and took a screen grab of it. But I will say is that I have been impressed by him stating, you know, October 7th happened. I didn't know very much about the situation. And he has spent...

time he's gotten into community and conversations with the community and through that process of actually learning and listening he has created something that is really powerful and i think that's the note i took from malcolm moore it's like okay when a celebrity's pushed to think about politics if they begin engaging give them the time to figure out how they want to live in that space and sometimes they'll surprise you malcolm moore has surprised me in a good way

Something else I want to point out as we wrap up this conversation is, you know, as it happens for the book, I'm studying the 1940s and 1950s, which means I'm looking at how McCarthyism impacted literature and people like Langston Hughes, for example.

I'm going to say, in 2024, I find it kind of eerie that there's a... We're in an era of lists. Like, it's not just the block list. There are websites, and I don't even want to say the name of the site to put it out, but there is a website where people can look up professors and academics who have spoken out against Israel so that they could be blacklisted. Wow.

The other day I saw traveling around Twitter an insane Google Doc that was like, is your favorite author a Zionist? And it's like, why is James Baldwin on this list? He's dead. What do we do? There's a longer footprint. It's concerning. And so I was talking to a friend about the block list because I was like, I don't know. I keep changing my mind. And she pointed out there's a tinge of surveillance culture and really cultural policing culture.

that we're kind of moving into. It's okay to put the pressure on someone. You're dealing with a genocide. Thousands of people have already died and more may die in the coming months. I understand the stakes. However, I'll just go to Audre Lorde. The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. We cannot fight fascism by using police tactics, basically.

These moments require us to think radically, to think in new ways, because you will just begin repeating the same systems of violence that you're currently facing yourself. Well, and I think this desire to have celebrities like Zendaya do more on Palestine, I

show just how much Americans feel like our own government won't do what needs to be done. We're in a political climate where for several elections, the candidate for president who won the popular vote lost. We're in a climate where the majority of Americans favor abortion rights, yet it's being shut down. So there's increasingly a disconnect between what it seems American people want and what the politicians do.

when you have that reality, of course you'd want more from anyone else, like celebrities. Yeah. We'll leave it there for now. As I said to my friend Isaac the other day, I was like, I think so many of us have so much sadness and anger and nowhere to put it. And I think we need to think more constructively about where we're putting these feelings. It is a frustrating, painful time, but I don't know if this is exactly the best strategy. What's the best use of our time and what works? And I know that

Money works and making people uncomfortable works. And like, is this digital thing going to make Zendaya uncomfortable? You've got to have a clear ask what he wants Zendaya to say. Well, we'll leave it there for now. We're going to take a quick break, but you know, listeners, let us know what you think about this. Is it resonating with you? Do you have a different take? We're all ears. All right. We'll be right back.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, we are back and we're going to use this segment to talk about a topic that we have kind of avoided for at least a few weeks now. And that is everything going on with Donald Trump.

A former president, Donald Trump, is in court right now. That alone is historic. But it seems like a lot of Americans just don't really care. According to Nielsen, since Trump's hush money trial began, Fox News' ratings have gone up a little bit, but CNN and MSNBC have actually seen their ratings dip.

This is the polar opposite of what cable news ratings used to do when Trump was the headline. And I want to talk about that. But first, just to catch up in case you were living under a rock, Donald Trump is on trial right now after pleading not guilty to 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in relation to hush money paid to adult film star Stormy Daniels before the election in 2016.

This trial has been wild so far. Stormy Daniels took the stand and discussed her sexual encounter with Trump, and she suggested that it was an unwanted encounter. Michael Cohen, Trump's former attorney, talked about how he made hush money payments to Stormy to keep this story from going public, and how he frequently threatened the press on Trump's behalf. Trump has gone against several gag orders during this trial. He has fallen asleep in court.

And yet, it feels like no one's talking about this. I want to just start by asking both of you, why aren't we talking more about this? It's big. It's huge. And I was kind of half paying attention until you brought it up to me, Sam, the other day, I think in New York. And I went back and read Stormy Daniels' testimony. And it was like, this is...

this is better than csi or anything goes like this is incredible and you know it should be making huge huge news but you know for me it feels like we're just really tired we've been stuck in this loop since 2015 2016 and having you know this final act in which you know these characters that we've come to know really intimately stormy daniels michael cohen

I mean, Michael Cohen, by the way, has already pled guilty, served time, is released. Like he has gone through a lot of versions of this already and now is flipping on Trump again. But we've just been with these people for so long that I think it has felt flattening to us. It's the same show. Yeah, like where are we in this? It's like when you turn on Sex and the City on Netflix and you can just jump into any episode like I do, this Trump trial feels like you can jump in and it's like the same story over and over. I love how Zach can make everything about Sex and the City. 1000% can, can always. I know.

I would say my productive response is that from 2015 to about, I don't know, late 2017, I read every single thing, every story. I listened to every podcast. Like any clue. Maggie Haberman, I was following her like a hunter. Listen, I was plugged in, honey. Because I was really – I think I thought –

That if I read enough news stories, if I read enough books, if I listened to enough podcasts about this phenomenon we were living through, I would understand it. And maybe, this is absurd, come up with a solution for it. I thought I was going to fix it. And then, of course, you can't. There's no... It's just...

You exhaust yourself. So one, I feel like I've had to, you know, contain my impulse to want to follow, you know, the drip, drip, drip of crazy stories. But also, this is perhaps unproductive. I'm just burnt out. I'm fucking tired. No, that's real. Yeah. I want to talk about

Honestly, thank goodness.

Like, that man, if he was able to make it more respectable, he still kind of is. He's obviously wild. He's violated how many gag orders in the last week? Totally. It's wild. So I think that's one of the reasons. I also think that this Trump trial was happening while a war and a catastrophe of epic scale was happening.

But I think there's a third reason that's not talked about a lot. Sometimes when we have candidates for president that run for election, the race goes all the way to the conventions in the summer. There have been cycles where Bernie stayed in till the convention. There have been cycles where Obama and Hillary played it out for several months.

There have been cycles with Republicans where it's gone on longer. But with Joe Biden and Donald Trump, this election cycle, they've been the nominees presumptively at this point for months. So for many Americans, the race feels set. And I think very few people have yet to make up their mind on either of these guys.

Yeah. And I think to that point, too, we don't have much else to learn from these guys. We've been listening for so long that we know everything. We can even predict how Joe Biden's going to respond to Gaza, what his statements will be, who he's going to call next. We know them too well. And I just think back to, you know, we've all worked together.

on coverage around the campaign in different capacities. And I think back to, you know, the last presidential race and in 2019, I was in Iowa and I was able to host a presidential forum there. - With Cory Booker, I remember this moment. - Well, every democratic nominee besides Bernie, he did not show up, which was shady as hell, but everyone showed up and it was about LGBTQ lives. And people would ask me before that, they're like, why are you hosting this event to talk about queer people? They all support same-sex marriage. And I'm like, we need to talk about

you know, immigration of queer people, foster care, access to healthcare. There's so many questions. And through that forum, we learned so much about each of them in a very little and minuscule ways. Now, after that, there's none of those conversations happening. It's just two guys that are very old who have the same ideas they've had for eight years, and it's boring.

And Biden avoids the press. He famously avoids the press, sits for very few interviews. You know, Zach, you were texting about this this morning, and I want to follow up on this. You know, even though we all have been paying less attention to Trump, his rhetoric has shifted. There has been coverage on how the words he says and the phrases he uses have gotten meaner since like 2015. At rallies now, he compares immigrants to Hannibal Lecter.

The rhetoric's getting worse even as we're not watching, right? It's terrifying. So I went through my notes because we live in an internet age and I can pull up my reporter notes from 2015 because they're still on my phone. And in 2015, June 29, 2015, I was in Chicago with then-

candidate Trump who was far back in the pack. He was no one ever thought he was going to be president or even nominee. And it was the week in which he started calling Mexicans rapists. And I was with him literally seated in a room when we all were notified that he would be fired from MPC because of these statements. And he then responded to us in the room, I'm going to sue Univision and then began the big war between him, Univision and like all Latino people.

And, you know, from that moment, he's been consistent in calling people who live south of our border criminals and all these other words that are not even accurate scientifically from the data we have. But what he's done is he's built a movement on top of this consistent framing of people from outside the world. And now he's becoming more violent. And that's the big change in Trump. Biden hasn't really changed at all. Since January 6th, this man is like, I can get away with anything.

really? And now I'm going to lean in. Yeah. And as a result of that, if we look at the Democrats and Biden in particular, I think it, it kills enthusiasm as well for voters because Biden just has to say, well, at least I'm not him. Like that is the entire Biden campaign strategy. And it's, I think a good strategy. Like look at this monster. He's a fascist. He's comparing immigrants to Hannibal Lecter. You don't want him. Like what is Biden's platform even going in? It's basically, you know, democracy. I'll keep things the same, you know? So,

That's good. I believe in democracy. I think he's clearly a better choice. But I, you know, I think at this point, you're right, Sam. I don't think there's anyone who hasn't made up their mind about who they would vote for between the two of them. I think the question will be, will I feel strongly enough to go vote, especially in states like Georgia, which have made it like a pain in the ass to vote, you know? Totally. Totally. I...

And I'd hate even asking this question, like, how should I handle this? But I really want y'all to give me some advice. My political reporter brain wants to follow this stuff all the time, all day, every day. But I can't do that. It's too much for me. It overwhelms me. What are the best practices? Like, I want to be an informed citizen. This is historic. We've never seen a former president in trial like this. So I want to follow it.

How do I do it without getting my head too far back in the weeds? I was reading yesterday, because they don't have cameras in the courtroom, Jake Tapper on CNN was drawing sketches of Trump. I don't want to go that far, but how do I keep up? Wait, wait, wait. He was drawing them himself? Yeah, he used to be a cartoonist. That's how he came up. What? Yes. Are you trolling me right now? Jake Tapper was a political cartoonist back in the day before he made it big in TV. So during the trial coverage...

He was like, I'll just draw it for y'all. So on live TV on CNN, he draws a sketch of Trump and then shows the camera. I can't be in there like that. I cannot be in there like that. That's not helping. So what do I do? Help me, sisters.

I mean, I don't know. I have become the person that does look away too much and I'm trying to look back and in a way I bring myself back and I don't know if this is a good tactic or not, but I will go to foxnews.com and I'll check the home.com.

I will go there and I see what they're yelling about through the headlines. And then I will use that to go to sources I actually trust to go read about it just to see where that side of the country is really focused. Because what I've learned, especially when I go home to Tennessee, a lot of the conservative people I know growing up are very engaged in news.

Like while we're talking about MSNBC dipping, CNN dipping, we aren't talking about the fact that Newsmax has launched and is taking off in other far-right platforms. The far-right influencers are blowing up. So the right is engaged and they are eating well with their content. It's the other side that is just disengaged and not talking enough. So I'm trying to find ways to inspire myself to come back because –

I think what we are talking about here through all this conversation is the PTSD of the 2016 election, where we all went to bed being like, well, Hillary Clinton's president tomorrow. Goodbye. It's over. And then the shock, like people were bawling in the streets. Like it was so bad. And I don't think we've ever processed that. And now we're just at that stage of numbness in the grieving process. Yeah, I agree. I think in terms of following the news, two camps.

The camp with the trials, I am like, that's none of my business. Like, let me know how it goes. I have no faith. I mean, as we've seen, like this justice system is giving this man the white glove treatment in every way. So I don't see like much of an incentive of following the day-to-day of the trials, to be honest. I will say my goal with following what we would call, I guess, election news, however you want to categorize that, is I want to be able to have an informed, productive conversation with people in my life

If they ask me about the election in November, if someone says, who are you voting for? Are you voting? I'm not planning on, you know, whatever. I want to be able to engage. I want to be able to say, well, did you know Trump did this reason, you know, like I want to have clear reasons to communicate why I think they should continue to participate. I mean, what you're saying is you want to know enough to be a good citizen to the folks around you. Yeah. You know, I,

I will tell you, though, I wish there was audio of Stormy Daniels because apparently she gave them hell. She gave them hell. She said when they accused her of making up the story of her sleeping with Trump, she responded, if I made it up, I would have written it better. And I was like, oh. Okay, note her. I was like, drag him.

She is so good at the response, which is why I think she shakes Trump to this point. Because he gets very – everyone talks about in this trial that the days with her there, he was so angry and upset. But his team wasn't even trying to stop her from saying anything. The judge had to jump in and be like, okay, we're going too far because I think everyone was a bit too stunned with all the tea she was spilling. Yeah.

I've said before that I feel like E. Jean Carroll is basically the only person in America who's been bold enough to hold Trump accountable. But I would add Stormy Daniels to that list, too. It's interesting. These two women are doing what seemingly no politicians or judges are willing to do. Yeah, truly. Listeners, let us know if you're following this case and how.

It's going to keep going. We might talk about it again. All right, time for a break. When we come back, some recommendations to totally cleanse the palate. Yeah, it's been a rough conversation. All right, BRB. BRB.

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We are back. And before we end the show, we'd each like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. And to get us going, I want to throw to Sister Jones. Sister Jones over here. My recommendation this week is Natasha Trethewey's book, Monument. It's her new and selected poems. And I think it's a great book.

Natasha Twethaway, first of all, is a fabulous, really cool lady. I've gotten to hang out with her a few times. She's also been our poet laureate in the past. She's a wonderful southerner. She wrote a poem a few years ago that I got to see her read at the Decatur Book Festival called Meditation at Decatur Square. It's in the book, but it's a pretty long poem. So I'm just going to read one section of it that I just think is an incredible narrative poem. It tells a beautiful story. It's part three. Once a poet wrote...

Books live in the mind like honey inside a beehive. When I read those words to my brother after his release, this is what he said. Inside the hive of prison, my mind lived in books. Inside, everything was a story unfinished.

The letters he wrote for inmates who could not write, who waited each day for an answer to arrive. The library with too few books. The last pages ripped out for someone to roll a cigarette. To get by, he read those books, conjuring new endings where the stories stopped. Inside, everything was possibility, each graving a pathway

One word closer to the day he'd walk out of prison and to the rest of his story, a happy one or not, depending on where you marked the ending. Again, it's just a beautiful poem, and it's a part of a bigger family story that is actually quite tragic. But it's in Monument, New and Selected Poems by Natasha Trethewey. Can't recommend her work enough. Love it. Love it. Love it.

Sam, what about you? Yeah, I'm going to recommend a show that recently released its third season. It's called Hacks. It's on HBO. And watching the four episodes of season three out now was part of my Mother's Day self-care routine. It was part of my Sam, don't be on your phone today routine. And it was just delightful.

I have loved this show since the start, but like you were saying, Zach, there's always questions as seasons go on. Will it stay this good? It's gotten even better. For those who haven't watched it, Hacks is all about an aging comedian played by Jean Smart who has a late career comeback. And in this season, she is in contention to possibly be the first woman host of a major late night show.

So the stakes are high, but she's just as funny as ever. And I love the plot and the way the show is moving. It's all about Vegas and the industry and comedy. But what I love most is a scene will be ending and you think it's done. And then the two leads will share these one or two one-liners that crack you up and bowl you over. And you have to rewind just to watch that five seconds again. The writing is so tight.

and so good. You don't have to watch the first two seasons to get it. There's a really good recap before, but go watch Hacks. It's really good. - And I would say I'm a big fan of this new season. I did not finish season two. - You don't need to. - So you just skip over, go there. They do a recap in the beginning of season three. You learn all the big plot points and then just get on with the show 'cause it is a really beautiful show this season. - And it is a wonderful commentary on how to do comedy right.

There's so much discourse around what comedy is allowed and what comedy is not. And this show is showing how to be funny without pissing everybody off. It's actually possible. And it's actually really good. Also, is it fair to say the show's very gay? That's just the sense I've gotten from clips. Everyone is gay in this show. Just wanted to check in about that. Besides Jean Smart, everyone is gay. And she dabbles. She feels like she's close. She's interested. She's an ally to the fullest extent.

Yeah. Yeah, it's great. Well, my recommendation is also a TV show that has come back for another season. It's their second season and it is the show on AMC, Interview with a Vampire, which I would say is the gayest TV show. You like this one. I...

Love the show. And I didn't think I was going to like it because, you know, it's an adaptation of a book that was made into a movie. Now it's a TV show. Just like really, you know, squeezing a lot out of this rock here. And the TV show is better than all the other things. Like I think it's brilliant. It's wonderful. It's so queer. It's global. This season takes place in Europe. It's mostly in Paris in the early 1900s. And it talks about race in really interesting ways, gender in interesting ways, growing up and

love. And I just think it's really something. And I've, or episode one came out this week. There are eight episodes this season and I have seen six of the eight so far. And I will say that they're very, very good. Question. Be honest. How hot are the vampires? They're really beautiful. They're very hot. I can say. They're like stunning. They are like exquisite. And there's new ones this season and they're all just so beautiful.

I watched about four episodes of the first season. I loved it. It's very beautiful. But my issue, and I think I told you this, Zach,

To be honest, those niggas talk too much. It's a very... They talk a lot. Like, I can't explain. Like, every... Like, the dialogue... Like, people speak in monologues, constant or soliloquy, whatever. It's a little intense. It's very beautiful. I get it. They've been alive for hundreds of years, so they got a lot of shit to say, but Jesus Christ. They give a lot of monologues this season, too. And I just... And I live for it. I'm like, give me drama, really grandstand on that this man broke your heart and you killed him. Like, I love this.

Like, this is really something. So definitely check it out. I think AMC always has these sleeper shows that become huge. This show I don't think will be as big as Breaking Bad or Mad Men, but it's up there for me. All right, well, listeners, what are you feeling this week or not feeling? Let us know by emailing us at vibecheckatstitcher.com.

Listeners, thank you for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow Vibe Check on your favorite podcast listening platform. Anyone will do. But if you're on Apple Podcasts, subscribe and leave a review. That helps us out a lot. And most importantly, tell a friend, IRL, to their face. Yes, to their face.

And huge thank you to our producers, Chantal Holder, engineers Rich Garcia and Brandon Burns, and Marcus Hom for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda.

We want to hear from you. Don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Keep in touch with us on Instagram on our new Instagram page at vibecheck underscore pod and our Patreon, where for $5 a month, you can get direct access to our group chat, which is very busy. It's popping. You can get access to the Patreon at patreon.com slash vibecheck. Stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday.

pollen you know what I'm sick of it listen I curse and bind every histamine please pray for a bitch oh my god bye bye Stitcher

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