Hey, Sis: featuring Raquel Willis
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Hey, ladies. Hey, ladies. Hey, ladies. Hello. Hi, hi. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you're listening to Vibe Check. Welcome, welcome, welcome to yet another installment of our Hey Sis, a Vibe Check series where we are highlighting some amazing Black women for Black History Month and Women's History Month.

And today, I'm having a conversation with a very old friend of mine. Maybe out of all my interviews, the person I know the longest. Her name is Raquel Willis. She's a writer, editor, and a transgender rights activist. And just all around one of the most beautiful people I know and have gotten to know for a long, long time. So I'm so excited to share this with you all today because I like that we keep having friends on and that they're friends that we respect their work. And it's just nice to be like, okay, here's what they did. And then here's the friendship underneath.

And here's the emotional relationship underneath. And me and Raquel have that in the most, I think, the most interesting way. Well, and for me, selfishly, this interview series allows me to pretend that I'm also friends with all of Zach's cool friends. I probably joined the whole friend circle last.

And so there are a lot of people in Saeed's orbit and in Zach's orbit where I'm like, when do I get to be their friends too? And this series kind of lets me in a little bit. So I'm loving it. And Sam, they all feel that way about you. I mean, I hear it all the time where people are like, how is it being friends with Sam? Even the other day, my sister told me that one of her best friends in San Francisco will tell people at work that his friend Sam said something and he doesn't know you. He just listens to the show. Yeah.

The theme is friendship. For everybody. I love it. For everybody. It's also, you know, I was thinking about, because I adore Raquel as well. I'm so happy she continues to thrive.

But also it occurs to me, Black queer people from the South, I think we are so well-equipped for this moment that our country finds us in, where, you know, obviously intersectional is one lens, but I would also say just like the knowledge, someone like Raquel, and I would say the three of us, that the four of us have come into via the various roads we have traveled through.

across our various identities just feels, we're just like so well positioned, I think, to speak to this moment. And Raquel epitomizes that. And like when you say speaking to the moment as Southerners, something Southerners are good at and something Black Southerners are good at is making it plain. When it's time to make it plain, we can do it. And so I love conversations that allow us and other Black Southerners to go there. It just always speaks to me.

Yeah. I love what you both just said because Raquel, as you mentioned, is from the South like us. She's Black. She's queer. She started in journalism. People don't know this about her because she became very well known as an activist. But she began as a local journalist working at like a very small paper. And then from there, she got involved in activism in Atlanta, you know, kind of got inspired to be part of the movement. And then through the movement was brought back to

to media. And she and I worked together at Pride Media. She was the highest ranking trans woman, I think, in publishing at the time. She was the executive editor of Out. And I was the editor-in-chief of The Advocate. But there's something about, to your point, Sam, there's like a way in which Black queer people in the South make things plain and are able to meet the moment of Saeed's bringing up that brought us both to journalism at a moment in which Trump was rising, all these things were happening. So we get into all

And there's a lot of fun nuggets. Fun nuggets. I love it. Fun nuggets. But her book that we talk a lot about and use as kind of the basis of the conversation is called The Risk It Takes to Bloom. It's her memoir. And as I was reading it before talking to her about it, I realized some pages in, well, deeper in the book, I pop up in it. And when I pop up in it as a character, I'm sitting with Lil' Kim, the rapper.

And I was like, thank you, Raquel, for making me seem so cool at one moment. When did you... Well, I guess we'll find out. You'll find out. When me and Lil' Kim and Raquel were all together. In the cut. I love it. Nice promo. Nice promo. Thank you. You know, just to get the girls to fit in. And it's at the end of the episode, too. So you girls got to finish this episode. But we're not going to tell you where at the end. Yeah, no. We're not going to tell you.

Don't go searching. Just listen. It's wonderful. What's going on? Are we testing listeners? We should. We should put out like a VibeCheck crossword puzzle. Ooh. That actually sounds fun. All right. With that, I can't wait for you all to hear this conversation. So let's just dive in. Raquel Willis, welcome to VibeCheck. It is so nice to have you here. How are you today? Where are you in the world?

I feel good. Where am I in the world? Well, I am in Brooklyn. It's a little gross outside, but you know, you deal with what you can here. But I feel great. And my spirit is trying to catch up. I feel like alongside everyone else's. Oh, yeah, I totally, I totally understand that. And you know, since you are on Vibe Check, what we ask everyone that comes on Vibe Check, like we do every week on our show, we ask what's your vibe this week. So tell us what is your vibe?

My vibe is endurance. Endurance. I have a vibe that's deeply invested in just enduring right now.

Is it like an avalanche of work hitting you or is it just like a big year for you of lots of new things coming out? It's a big year, but I'm also just trying to find my moments to recharge in the midst of everything that's going on, just like in the world and in work and in life.

And I think endurance is like, yes, I'm enduring some things, but it's more of the positive spin on enduring, you know? Yeah, yeah. I love it. I love that. And that's kind of perfect because, you know, your book, The Risk It Takes to Bloom on Life and Liberation is amazing.

endurance, like reading it. I was like, Ooh, she has been going through it for a long time, but yet she continues to persevere through it all. Yeah. Oh gosh. Well, speaking of your book, I'd love to just dive right in there and use the book as a way for our listeners to better understand not only you, but our relationship and,

I promise, listeners, I'm not being a raging narcissist by placing myself within this book, even though I do pop up, which, by the way, thank you, Raquel, for putting me in the same sentence as Lil' Kim. That was the best surprise I've ever had in my life, which I'll get into. But the reason why I love that we're talking today is that, you know, we're both...

queer folks from the South and without even realizing it. And we've known each other for years, but it wasn't until reading this book that I realized our lives have run such a strong parallel for so long from both being interested in, you know, our Southerness

and growing up in the South and what that means to going to school and becoming writers and realizing that the writing industry wasn't really for us. So dipping into activism and then the activism becomes the work itself and it keeps motivating you. And then eventually you and I did work together and we were at that time the highest ranking Black queer people as editors and media at the time, which we'll talk about later. So with all that being said, I'd love to just begin with

something I love about you, which is you are so proud of your Southerness and where you come from. And I remember when I started writing, you know, in 2011, I never identified as a Black writer. I didn't really identify as a gay writer. I identified as a writer from Tennessee, and that was super, super important to me. Talk to me about why, for me, your book is such like a Southern memoir and why speaking about growing up in the South is so important to you.

Yeah, well, I, of course, always have to give love to my Southern kindred. So much love to you and the little Tennessee you out there. And so there's the little Georgia me, right, that I carry with me in every space and conversation that I enter. And it was so important for multiple reasons to highlight my Southerness. I think one is...

being from the South is kind of coming into an understanding of yourself as this perpetual outsider. I mean, that is just kind of the interesting history of this country, the United States, is that

Southerners, regardless of what you look like, what your background is, you're often on the periphery of what's considered the main story, right? And I think growing up as a little Black, gender non-conforming, queer something, even though I didn't have all of these words...

The idea was that the story was always somewhere else. The story was in New York. The story was in San Francisco. It definitely was not in Augusta, Georgia, where I'm from. So at the very least, if I wanted a smidge of a story, I might have to go to Atlanta. But that is kind of the way that things operate. And I still feel like that's true now, right? There's such a way that the South becomes a scapegoat.

for all of the bigotry, all of the kind of regressive qualities of this country. Of course, because of the history of the Civil War and enslavement and reconstruction and so on and so forth. But I've had to fight to reclaim my power as a Southern person and also to shift the

how I think about the South, because it's not just a place where oppression and struggle has happened. It's also been a place that has been the hotbed of all of our social justice movements throughout time. So you don't get the civil rights movement without the South. You don't get so many of these freedom fighters that we have so many glowing critiques of.

of and mentions of without the South. So that's important. I think the other thing, too, particularly thinking about queer history is that it took me a long time to understand that, oh, queer folks weren't just in New York and San Francisco in these kind of meccas where

We are everywhere and we've been everywhere. And so I was an adult when I learned about the Lady Chablis, for instance, or even that Sir Lady Java was from the South, right? Or other hometown heroes like Didi Chambly and Cheryl Courtney Evans and Tracy McDaniel and others in Georgia. So it's been important for me to own that Southerness as much as anything else.

Yeah. And it feels as if the southerness and Georgia as a place is the fertile ground in which you plant your seed. And, you know, that harkens to the fact that the book is a metaphor on a flower blossoming and blooming. And, I mean, it's called The Risk It Takes to Bloom. So talk to me about why were you so intentional about not only titling this work The Risk It Takes to Bloom, but the structure of it as well.

It's about the gardening, the taking care of a flower and watching it come to life. Why was that used for you?

Well, this idea of blooming, it came from numerous sources. One, of course, was the first time I heard the short poem that mentions the line, the risk it takes to bloom. It was listening to Alicia Keys, her third album, The Element of Freedom. And so she does a rendition of the short poem where she says, and the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom. Yeah.

And that stuck with me the first time I heard it. I was like this young queer something at the University of Georgia. It was my freshman year. And it resonated with me then. But I also thought about growing up

As a young kid being raised as a little boy and loving these magnolias that grew on this tree that my neighbor had in my childhood backyard. And the branches would reach over and I was like enthralled with these magnolias.

that came from the flowers and the petals and how the textures felt. But then I also remember feeling a fear because I was not supposed to like these things, right? As someone being raised as a little boy. So these gendered expectations crept in. And...

I also had this idea that I was not supposed to experience softness and the feeling of being pure and precious or even beautiful or all of these different things, just like that flower. I would never be that flower in this context.

And so that is kind of where this origin of blooming came from. And then I just kind of played with that as I kind of talked about different parts of my life, because it's all about kind of, again, taking risks to see if there's something more beautiful and powerful on the other side. And that's amazing.

a part of the queer experience, the Black experience, being a woman, being Southern, is, you know, owning these parts of ourselves, owning our voices, so that hopefully we can change the conditions that maybe feel so constricting. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, as you're talking about this, it makes me think of

You know, the poem by Tupac Shakur, The Rose That Grew From Concrete, which is really beautiful if people haven't read. And it also makes me think about the Buddhist chant, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, which Tina Turner popularized. It's about a lotus. So all these metaphors, especially within Blackness, as we're saying these names, Tupac, Tina Turner, Raquel Willis, it's about flowers,

rising through untenable circumstances and risking it all to become beautiful. But sometimes that's easier said than done because it's really hard. And your book details a lot of trials and tribulations that you went through as a person trying to find themselves.

So, you know, something I love to ask folks like you is, what is the thing that every morning you thought of or what do you think pushed you through these moments? Because so much of what you wrote reminds me of something Janet Mock once said to me when I first met her. She said, blazing trails is really lonely because you're acknowledging that no one's walked here before. So no one's probably walking next to you. And a lot of what you went through in your life was a lot of loneliness. So talk to me about the blooming process and how did you continue to find the energy to keep pushing for that blossom? Oh, wow.

Well, I think a lot of it and a lot of what you brought up is so true. I mean, I think there's so much isolation and being marginalized and being different and being made to feel like you're the only one. And I found glimmers of liberation and stories that made me feel like I wasn't the only

or in the breadcrumbs that I think other folks who were queer or trans or any kind of different kind of left for me. And then I think it became a part of my duty to try and do that for other folks through my work and what I create. But what kept me...

kept me going was trusting my inner voice. I think as a young queer something who knew that I was different from a young age, whether it was because of the bullying from peers or just the math not mathing around me from what adults were saying or institutions like the Catholic Church,

were saying or even politicians at that time were saying when they were talking about the sanctity of marriage. I knew that there was an inner voice that I needed to protect and defend when I could and preserve for when I was in a space to fully own my power.

And I think when I finally started to get to a space where I was more comfortable sharing my truth, whether it was coming out as gay as a teenager or coming out as trans in college, I started to also realize, oh, well, this can be in service to hopefully empowering others to do the same in their own lives.

Yeah, I love that because that's what this work requires, especially with folks like yourself who, you know, have been working for the past decade, knows the powers of the internet, knows the reach that you have, and knows what is needed to survive the world as a young trans person, as a queer person, that you need to have hope in the world. So it is our duty as, you know, the ancestors living now that we're in our 30s. Right.

Oh, Lord. I know. But to leave a trail, leave a map behind for people to find their way, because there is a way, because, you know, you lived it, you found that way. And, you know, through your book, there were moments of popular culture that popped up. I would say one of my favorite aspects of your book is that I'm reading a memoir of someone of a similar age and your touch points of culture, whether it's music, television, whatever, political moments, and I'm reading a memoir of someone of a similar age,

are so similar to what shaped me, you know, seeing Laverne Cox on VH1 on the Diddy show that only like probably black kids watch. People trying to get a job at Diddy, which is very problematic now to think about wanting to have a job at Diddy.

And so many other queer people like RuPaul who appears out of nowhere to us as kids. I'm like, who is that person? And I was really delighted to be like, oh, I too just had RuPaul appear on a commercial. And I was like, well, who is that? So tell me about that part of your book, the pop culture of it all, how you were very intentionally showing a map of how culture has been shifting over the years and the people you look to.

Well, that's the contextualizing piece. And I don't know if that's like the it's like the journalist superpower, but it can also be our Achilles heel. And to be honest, I think in my early drafts, at least the first two.

I just had to be more choosy about what I contextualized and how. Because there's a way that we're so good at contextualizing that we can lean on that without ever having to say anything specific about ourselves. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so that's such a thing. And then you throw on there being a social justice warrior. And then, oh, we're never getting back to my personal story. Yeah.

It all becomes like a shield of not talking about yourself, but talking about yourself. Look how smart I am. Look at all these things I'm giving you, but there's not actual depth there. Those aren't a part of you. So thank you for saying that because that's the trick to people like us where we're like, oh, I'm going to glamorize my knowledge as a way for you not to actually go deep with me. But I will say in the draft that I read of the book, you do go deep after those moments. So talk to me about that. Yeah. I mean, I think the going deep part. So

I really have been interested in owning that I have a right to critique culture, but also a right to name the things that have impacted my life as well. I think as a journalist and someone in media,

who is Black, who is queer, who is trans, who is a woman. So often, at least earlier in my career, I was kind of faced with folks saying, well, this is what's important. This is the storyline. And it's like, no, no, honey. Is that really the storyline of the people that I most care about or that I believe are the tastemakers? Probably not. So it was important for me to share how

how I was shaped by the images around me, for better or worse, right? So not only was it the horrible depictions of queer and trans folks, whether on Jerry Springer, some of these like tabloid talk shows, or even the harrowing news coverage of someone like Matthew Shepard, right?

But it was also these other portrayals where people like RuPaul were kind of like beacons of queerness and what being unapologetic could look like. It was folks, of course, like Laverne and Isis King. And then later on, the Amaya Scotts and the T.S. Madisons of the world and Janet and Gina and so on who gave me life.

And I loved having the opportunity to share that, right? That we kind of feed each other in this culture. And now it's weird, I think, to be a person who folks see me, you know, in that way. And I still-- I don't fully hold it,

But I'm trying. And so that part is interesting to me now. To even also just to have access to these figures in this way now in my career, too, is something that I don't take lightly at all either. So I think the cultural piece is important. I mean, I'm shaped by outcasts.

and their music just as much as I'm shaped by Laverne on Orange is the New Black and on and on. Yeah. I did have this moment where as you're talking about your life and your lived experiences and things like the story of you speaking at the Women's March after Trump is elected and you seeing Janelle Monae for potentially the first time and all these incredible celebrities. And then I was like, wait a minute, didn't Janelle blurb this book? And I said, that

It's so wild. Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? These full circle moments of like you reflecting on, you know, being introduced to these worlds and seeing these people who got you through life. Like Janelle Monae was so important to you through college, but then now you're speaking at the same event as her. And it has to be dizzying because I felt a similar version of that because this moment you're like, when did I become the person I used to look up to? Do you think of it that way? Yeah.

It's hard to. I guess I don't. You know, I still just feel like the same girl who is always trying to be better and do more and articulate things better. I think what's different now is the responsibility to

use my platform to support other folks who are up and coming. So that is a thing or to support grassroots efforts when I can. That has shifted. But I don't know that I will ever feel or see that sheen that I guess other folks will. And maybe that's the good thing, right? Because maybe when you do start really completely, fully feeling yourself, that's when things shift.

honey, and you might have a Mr. West moment or something like that where the ego just completely eats you up. That's when Twitter will take you down. When they smell that water that you're feeling it too much, they will check you a bit too quick.

Oh, God. Well, you know, something I'd love to dive in with you from the book in your life, and it also ties to the work that you do and that I have done in the past, is that you're very open about showing how you've navigated love and learning to not only love yourself, but other people and how your own identity has been changing constantly as you go through that process of

And something that really like arrested me as your friend, I had to have a moment where I was like, okay, this is a long time ago. She's obviously still here with us. But it was the first story of you going on a date with a guy online. You go to his house and how you set up the scene is a scene that you and I as reporters, as community members have read before.

a lot about you then personally experienced where, you know, you may go home with a guy and the guy may not know your tea and then something terrible happens. And a lot of women that we both have known in our lives have been murdered in the wake of that. And in that moment, you aren't murdered, but you are having to reckon with this new life of being a trans woman and dating. Why was it important for you to fill the book so much with you trying to find love?

Wow. Yeah. Well, I think the love part, I mean, to be quite honest, people are very obsessed with trying to parse out the love lives and the sex lives of all of us. But of course, of women and of course, of trans women, right?

And so I wanted to share a not so linear, not so neat discussion around desire, the quest for validation, because I think we're all on that, even though we don't really name that or say that.

And also to share that, you know, I'm also now, you know, a Black trans woman in her 30s who is single, has been for a minute, right? You know, if ain't no ring on my finger, you ain't going on my ground. Shout out to Cardi B. T, TTT. But,

That is kind of how I've lived, right? So I am a very secretive person, I guess, in some ways around my love life and sex life. But I also wanted to share that, you know, I'm a 30-something Black woman with a career

And the journey to this point was already difficult, right? So I'm already a special mix now. But I was that...

And so I wanted to share the difficulty of that. I wanted to share kind of the anguish of yearning for more, but feeling like I live in a society or in a culture that maybe isn't ready for me, right? Or that I fear hasn't produced people who are able to rise to the occasion of what makes me special and sacred and beautiful and brilliant. Yeah.

And so that felt important. And I also know that that is not just something that trans people are dealing with in this time. That is something that a lot of people across identities are dealing with. You know, the feelings of yearning and loneliness and wanting more, but having issues with connection or communicating with each other or understanding each other. So that felt important. I also discussed, I mean, even just

I think the stakes of being a Black trans woman trying to live unapologetically and go after the things I desire, you know, I can't even really just go out to the club. And so there's another discussion in a later chapter of going to a club where I experience harassment. But I can't just have what we consider to be those quintessential things.

young woman experiences without the creeping fear of being found out, you know, as if my transness is some horrible secret. And it's not, right? It's actually something that's beautiful to me and powerful to me. But how do you articulate that to someone who's never experienced that beauty and sacredness?

I would say what you do so gracefully in the book through your discussions of love, and that I haven't really read before in other memoirs exploring trans identity in the lives of trans people we know and love, is that you do show very clearly the unfairness and the burden that is placed upon you to begin disclosing so much so quickly. You have to begin letting people in on some deeply personal things and anxieties, all for the sake of

One, them feeling okay. And then two, you just staying alive. And I think you create a great sense of stakes that are very different than cis people. You know, if I go on a date, even with another gay guy that's causing it, you know, the stakes of, in terms of violence, potential violence is up there, but it's not what you're facing by just trying to get a kiss, hold a hand, dance, whatever.

Do you think, you know, showing, depicting the reality of trans life in this really mundane way of that, how you were just living and life could just come flying at you really fast is helping people better understand trans people in the world right now?

I hope so. I mean, I hope that we can have more conversations. And I acknowledge, though, I don't know that it's mundane, right? I do still actually feel like it is an extra experience. You know, it is a unique experience of dating, particularly as a Black trans woman, right? But I also think that there are openings there, right? So...

You know, maybe someone who is living beautifully and brilliantly with a fat body, right? Or a positive body or who is disabled, right? Can find their place in a discussion that I'm having around what it's like to disclose this or, you know,

deal with wavering levels of desire and having to like, you know, hold the whim and concerns of someone that we hope can be our partner or something, right? Maybe even if it's just for a few hours. Yeah.

Maybe they can see an end there, right? And then I think the universal thing is that we're all wanting to be desired and wanting to be validated.

And we have to be able to see that and understand that and give grace for that because it's not just trans folks, right? And so I think that there is a universal discussion we need to be having about desire and validation. And I think there's also always going to be a piece of justice in there for me to talk about these things openly as well because when I think about so many of the particularly trans women, right?

of color that we've lost to violence. Often it's in a domestic violence situation or an intimate partner violence situation. And I've just seen and heard over the years so much justification for the violence that we face or the murder even that my sisters and sibs have faced. And I think that it's just so not

You know, it's so unfair for us to put our assumptions onto their experiences and for others to put their assumptions onto our experiences as well. Yeah, no, I agree completely. We're going to take a quick break here, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

Hey, hope you're enjoying the conversation. Taking a quick break right here to thank Ulta Beauty for presenting this episode of Hey Sis. In an industry where beauty is often defined by standards, Ulta Beauty is on a mission to change that by encouraging individuality, authenticity, and highlighting brands that do the same. That's why Ulta Beauty is celebrating Black-owned and founded brands this month and every month.

And what I love about Ulta is that they have so many of the black-owned brands that I love. Brands like Pat McGrath, who I use when I get into drag or wear makeup for a fun night out. And I remember as a young person going to Ulta and booking my makeup consultation appointments, which you can do, where you get to try makeup, buy makeup, and get your mug done if you need to go out with a fresh coat of paint on your face.

Head to your local Ulta beauty store or visit Ulta.com to shop your favorite Black-owned and founded brands. We're back and we're jumping right back into this conversation with Raquel Willis. So something your book also, I think, lands the plane really well on is it gives...

you know, a really accessible story and I would say material evidence to theories within gender and queer studies that we talk a lot about. You and I both studied that in school. We can talk about everyone from bell hooks to Jose Esteban Runos to all these people, Eve Sedgwick. We know all the theory, but a lot of people don't know theory. They need like reality. And something your book does really well is it offers us a very clear example of why trans acceptance isn't so much for trans people, but it's for all of us. Yeah.

Dismantling the gender patriarchy is for all of us. Talk to us about that part of the book and this larger message that you're trying to give us about how gender's failing everybody in many ways, but also is this beautiful gift that we can give each other.

Yeah, I mean, this is something that has come up on the tour a lot. I've had a lot of questions from people of all backgrounds about how gender has failed them or how they can interrogate how gender operates in their lives.

So I guess on a baseline, I will say what I have not always been able to say, right? But I think at this point in my life, I own it all, right? And I feel so much less fear about certain parts of my story being weaponized against me. There are so many entry points for so many different folks into my story. So when I think about the boyhood that I had,

I think about the ways that gender felt restrictive then in ways that maybe were deeper than my cis male counterparts, but still on the same spectrum. So just like I was told I couldn't have certain emotions without, you know, turning my back on masculinity, even though I wanted to do that.

for sure. But for cis boys and other boys who are told that they can't cry and have certain interests without betraying their masculinity...

Gender has failed them in the way that it failed me as someone who had a little boyhood. When I think about growing into my womanhood and trying to find the health care that I needed to be my fullest self and to hold on to this dear life, right? Because as Chase Strangio, our friend, says...

Gender affirming care is lifesaving. I think about the fights that so many, particularly cis women, but of course, folks of other gender experiences have around reproductive justice, right? And demanding abortion access, right? So they can live their lives on their own terms, right?

That's connected to my experience and growing into my trans womanhood and trying to embody that as fully as I desired. So, I mean, I think that there are so many entry points here for us to talk about how gender has failed us.

But I also think that we all deserve to shatter these expectations so we can live freer and fuller lives. And I hope the stories that I share within the book not only humanize trans experiences, but also allow folks to understand that maybe at the end of the day, there isn't this kind of new binary of trans and cis. Maybe we're all just folks who are felt by the gender to varying degrees.

Amen. It is, you know, Eve Sedgwick writes about the epistemology of the closet thing. We're always coming out and no one ever is out. You're always trying to explain or tell someone. But, you know, there's some truth in that. And what you're offering us is that, you know, there isn't a finite end to any of our experiences. They're always unfolding. Like the blossoming is constantly blossoming.

I mean, we're always blooming new things. And I think if we live in a world that is that expansive, then we all will feel, I think we'll feel better. I mean, that's why I think you both of us have dedicated our lives to queer folks and non-binary, but all these folks who live outside the center of the world that live on the borders, that live on the sidelines. We think like that's where the future sits is that these people offer us a world that is actual freedom. Being inside the box is not free.

It's not. It's really not. And I especially think of it coming up a lot with young people. Anytime I see a meme about the gay son or the thought daughter, which one would you want? Oh, God, yes. I mean, you're basically saying you don't want any of us to live freely or on our own terms, first of all. But I also just think about how...

those homophobic and restrictive ideas about masculinity impact straight men too, right? And cis men too, which leads them to continue to enforce that as they get older because they don't know any better, right? Or they don't know that there's

a path that they can chart, that they have the power to chart on their own. And the same thing for women and girls, right? Like, all of these discussions around who is a real woman and who isn't, and how trans women are trying to strip cis women of their womanhood.

ignore the idea or the understanding that your power is yours, honey. Nobody can take anything from you. And so if I, as a Black trans woman, can go into any space, right? And yeah, I may feel my anxieties and fears about being judged. Yes, because I'm human. But there is nobody who was ever going to tell me that I am not a woman. And I

I'm going to let that actually become a part of my narrative or become a part of my spirit. No, honey, if I did that, I would not exist. This book would not exist. I would not be here.

And then I also just think about all the ancestors who came before. You know, you think Sylvia Rivera was going to let somebody tell her that she wasn't who she was? Oh, God, no. No. No. And she had even less resources and access than I and so many of our peers do. So that's what keeps me grounded.

is knowing that I had to fight to stake my claim in this earth. And I have to continue to preserve and defend that fight because that's my power, but also that there were folks who came before who did that as well. And hopefully, cis folks of all experiences can be empowered by what I'm trying to demonstrate instead of threatened by it.

Yeah. Well, amen. That's a word you were preaching today with all this. So I'm so mad. We only have a few minutes left. I know. But it was so good for me to read this part of the book. And I want to ask you about it because you're one of the few people in the world I can ask this question to. And I'm so glad we can do it here. So for context, everybody, Raquel Willis from the beginning of the book. I was

I would say, yeah, pretty early on in the book. Wants to be a journalist. Has dreams of New York, the glamour. Wants to be a magazine editor. All these things. Same things I had in my own little town where I was reading Vogue and I was like, I one day want to live in New York. She eventually gets that dream. She gets a job offer from our dear friend, Philip McCarty, who was the editor-in-chief of Albuquerque.

out. He's also the reason why I became the editor-in-chief of The Advocate. So he was an advocate for both of us and we both joined him in this effort to really help revolutionize queer media in 2019, 18, 19 area. So right before the pandemic. So

Our company we join, as you'll read in the book, is a mess once we join. And it's not everything. It's not the 90s magazines that people dreamed of. We're not getting the salaries that people in the 90s used to get. We're not getting the black cars. We're getting nothing. But we're having to do 10 times the work.

And what I want to ask you about is, you know, you get your dream. And even at the end of this part of the book, you're contemplating becoming the editor-in-chief of the magazine, even amidst all this disarray. But you obviously don't, you know, eventually due to this book and so many other amazing projects. So your dream, you get to touch it for a second, and then it goes away. Right.

Yeah. What was that like for you to live your dream briefly and have it go away? Because I have my own feelings about it for another show, but you're one of the few people I can look at and be like, you got the dream and then it evaporated.

Yeah, there's a bittersweetness there. It took me a long time to fully process that because when the dream ended for me, because it was a staggered kind of laying off of everyone and departures, right? So it was like you and Phil left December 2019. Yeah, Phil was December, I was January. Oh, January. End of January and then you were later. In February, literally probably like two weeks after. Yeah.

So I didn't really get a chance to make peace with it because

the week after I officially left, the pandemic happened. You know, everything shut down. And so, interestingly, I think a lot of dreams and a lot of people's dreams shifted or floated away or transformed during that time. And it's bittersweet. I mean, I'm glad that we were able to be there to make the explosive, seismic,

shifts that we did for that amount of time. But I think once the summer of 2020 happened and there was kind of that social justice awakening, there was a different vantage point there for me because I realized

And I kind of already knew this, right? But some of my social justice sensibilities and everything wasn't fully respected in that kind of pre-The Unfortunate Murder of George Floyd moment, right? In space. Like, I was there, and people knew of my work, and I think within community, but...

After that, I think my lens was more respected in a way. And a lot of people's, right? I mean, a lot of Black, trans, and queer people started nonprofits in the summer of 2020. There was kind of a different thing going on. So it was a weird kind of like bittersweetness of that era. But you're right. I mean, I'm glad it happened.

And I'm glad it happened with the people that it did. And the work continues. And I think at the heart of it for me, it's not really about the institution. So maybe that's what I came out of that experience understanding. You know, I've worked in nonprofits. I've worked in corporate media. I've worked in small town, you know, newspaper. Yeah.

Very small. And, you know, institutions fell people, right? Regardless of how great the people are inside of them. Institutions inevitably fell us in some way.

So we have to be able to understand our own purpose and our purpose, of course, not just on an individual level, but in a collective context too. And sometimes, oftentimes that doesn't completely mesh with the institutional experience. And that's fine. You can still do the work you want to do. You just got to be a little bit more crafty and creative and ferocious about it.

Yeah, 100%. And I think what also your story and how the book ends, I would tell everyone that's not how the book ends. The book has a really beautiful ending after this really dark time. An ending that I also got to be a part of, but as a fan in the crowd, it's really, really special to me. But what I think your story and this book is,

reminds me especially is that dreams are worth dreaming and they're worth living but you also have to go back to sleep at some point and you'll dream a new dream and that dream is going to motivate you to get up and do it again and do something else and I think what your book shows us is

the great dreams that we can have and that they're just the beginning of the next dream. And then we can keep moving and growing and changing and it's never over till it's over. So thank you, Raquel, for creating a work that really, it touched me in deep, deep ways outside of our friendship. I just was so moved by everything. Thank you. Aw, yay!

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