Feeling Very Demure
59:04 Share

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

Hello, my sunshine August summery lady. Hello, my earthquake surviving single lady. You know, I told you I didn't even feel it. Sorry. I've only felt one earthquake in my 10 years here. Which makes me so mad that I'm the one that will die during the big one and you will stay alive and not even know what happened. So, yeah. Not even know what happened. Not even know any who.

We are two earthquake survivors here this week for Vibe Check. I'm Sam Sanders. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you're listening to Vibe Check, a bonus episode. Bonus episode. Not about earthquakes. No. I mean, about a political earthquake. I mean, I guess Kamala, she's from California. She is a political earthquake. And she brought us out of our typical August break to have a conversation. There you go. What is her Richter scale rating?

She's a solid 4.0 right now. 8.0. Okay. Okay. She's shaking my tables. She is shaking me. All right. All right. We're going to talk about the political earthquake that is the Harris-Walls campaign, but also because this is a very special bonus episode of Vibe Check and because Zach Stafford never stops working. Oh.

We have a special interview to share in this episode as well. Zach, tell them who you got. I'm excited about it. Before I tell them, Sam, I have to tell you, my sister called me yesterday or a few days ago, and she said, I just wanted to check in on you and Sam because, you know, you guys used to do politics reporting. You were on the campaign, and now you're not in it in the ways you used to be. And this has to be so, you know, triggering for you guys to be surviving all of this right now because your show is like news show, but, you know, we don't do like breaking news here. Like,

It used to be, you know, like Biden would have stepped down from the ticket and then you and I had to run to work.

We're filing three or four stories, going bam. Now it's like we like see it happen and we're like, okay, we'll talk about it on Tuesday, Wednesday. But I did say to her, I was like, well, fun fact, we're going to have some bonus episodes because Sam and I have to run into the news cycles. So that's what we're doing today. And something that happened right when we turned our cameras and our recorders off a few weeks ago was that news broke in the New York Times that J.D. Vance's former very, very close friend, Sophia Nelson, released their group chat to the world in

and showed that for over eight years. J.D. Vance didn't hold the beliefs that he's now not only espousing, but running for VP on. And Sophia came forward to really give light to how J.D. is a political animal that doesn't know where he stands on matters. And I know we've said that about Kamala Harris, that she's shifting, but J.D.'s is a bit more sinister and has created more damage internally. So today, Sophia's here to talk to us about that friendship and what went wrong.

This is a big deal. Y'all probably saw the flurry of coverage over a former JD Vance friend who was trans and said, oh yeah, JD was quietly much more progressive on queer issues online.

on trans issues that he lets on now. But then there was a shift, a big shift. I'm guessing Sophia talks about that shift with you. - Yeah, she does. And it's really like a very insightful conversation for me because, you know, I say this thing and Sophia and I get into it in the conversation.

i have this deep belief and i learned this through my reporting on protests that the big moments in history don't happen on the march on washington or in these big demonstrations in your downtown city they are sometimes in these one-on-one conversations you have with someone your college roommate your boss and

in these moments, the seeds for big things happen. And why I think this friendship is so interesting, especially for our show, is that it shows two people who were very close, went to college together at one of their weddings, was there when one had gender-affirming surgery, was there through the thick and thin of it all. - And they would like pass handwritten letters to each other. They were very in it.

They were in it. They were very in it. But even being that close, you begin to see the beginnings of someone shifting. And at the end of the day, sometimes political power can trump personal love. And that can be a really devastating thing. And we talk a lot about breakups here on Vibe Check. And this to me is a breakup that now echoes into our potential White House picks.

So yeah, we're going to do that, which is exciting. But before that, we're talking about the Harris campaign and all that stuff. We're going to talk about the latest in the Harris campaign, namely that she seems to be up in the polls, whatever she's doing, what Tim Walz is working. We're also going to talk a little bit about what Trump is up to right now. I tried to listen to the little Elon X thing. I did too. And I...

I was really sad as I listened to it. I was like this, I'm really sitting on my couch with my X app open, listening to Elon Musk stumble through questions to Trump who's slurring through answers. And this is just not a fun thing to listen to. So it was, it was such a departure from the image of him at the convention fist race saying fight, fight, fight. I almost got shot. Like what a difference. What a difference. Before all of that, we're going to check in on vibes. Uh,

First, Saeed's vibe. He is moving across the country. Listeners know that he is starting a very prestigious fellowship in Boston at Harvard this fall. He's moving right now, traveling across the country. So he's doing that. But he gave us some updates yesterday.

There's like three moving crews involved. Things are happening. And he's also, and hopefully he's okay with me sharing this, but he did something that I think is just such a strategic thing to do when moving that I never thought of. I've moved cross country a few times. And of course, this depends on your own financial status and what money you have on hand. But he was able to, as they were packing up his apartment, move into a hotel nearby and kind of stay the night there to prepare emotionally for the big move, which...

I think everyone should take that as a sign of take care of yourself when you can. If you're able to take care of yourself, do it. Choose you first and foremost in moments of chaos. So good job, Saeed. Good job, Saeed. We hope the vibes are still good for you as you get to where you're going. Is he in Boston already? He could be in the air. He could be in Mexico City. Saeed could be anywhere. Right? You never know. You never know. So that's Saeed's vibe. Zach, what is your vibe this week?

So my vibe this week is very demure. I'm very, very much demure. Very mindful. Very mindful. Very cutesy. Very cutesy. This is me. We joke a lot that we were like, does everyone listen to Vibe Check? Because we talk about things first and then they kind of bubble up through the culture. But

I, on our Instagram a week ago, posted a series of TikToks laying the groundwork. And I ended my TikTok series by saying, you will now be hearing Demure a lot in the coming days. And it has gone everywhere. The New York Times today, front page.

What is demure? Front page. Yesterday. What is demure? Like everyone's talking about demure. So if you don't know what demure is yet, let me tell you. There is a TikTok influencer. She's a trans woman. Her name is Jules LeBron. And she did this iconic video, which you can find it everywhere, where she's saying that she's demure. And she begins with, you know, when she gets off work, she doesn't go to Wingstop.

she gets a salad because she's demure. And the whole idea of her is like, you should do things to take care of yourself. You know, Saeed's being very demure with getting a hotel room. You know, there's moments in which we can take care of ourselves and act very ladylike. And it's really gone crazy. And it feels like the antidote to Brat Summer and giving us a preview into demure fall. And I love it so much because I am a demure woman at the end of the day. Ha!

I love the way the word rolls off the tongue.

Just saying the word demure makes you feel fancy. Makes you feel rich. Yes! Like it is. And what it comes from, and like this is, we could do a whole episode on this and maybe we do. But this word and its usage and how it's being deployed comes from queer community, but specifically trans woman communities. It's giving Paris is burning. Very Paris is burning. And why that's so important to me beyond being a person who in my youth, I went to balls.

was friends with the kids that walked the balls. I walked one myself once, but I did a lot of work with homeless youth when I was a kid and all these things. But through all of that, I would meet these young people, young queer people, young trans people, and they would use words like demure, these really fancy, you know, $2 words as a way to think

feel some sense of luxury in the moments in their life where they felt like they had no resources. They had nothing. They were able to make magic and fantasy around them. And that's what I think Demure is doing. It's fantastical. It's all these words. Just by saying it, it's like putting on a pair of heels. You're like, wow, I feel fancy. It's putting on a nice dress. Like, wow, I feel beautiful. Demure is that. And I think it's not a coincidence that as I would say liberals are feeling really

you know, positive and excited that as they're feeling good about the world, demure breaks through and we're all feeling demure. So Kamala Harris has made us feel demure, I think.

I wonder if Kamala Harris has uttered the word demure yet in the last week. If she hasn't yet, her team is prepping her on it because she's going to slide it in. She's going to slide it in. So that's my tea. But I'm also feeling demure because it is someone's big demure birthday this week, isn't it, Sam? Listen, demure, mindful, cutesy Sam Sanders is turning 40 on Saturday. So listeners, you'll hear this on Friday, those who download first day. The next day I turned 40 and I...

I am easing into this one a lot better than I did into 30. I was in existential angst and crisis for like a week or two before my 30th birthday, just freaking out. Really? And the day came and I was like, girl, it's fine. This time, I am just taking it day by day. I'm having a party at my house.

Because LA, you invite a bunch of people, you'll see who shows up because people flake. But it'll be a good amount of people here. Some friends are coming up from Texas. Some friends are coming down from the Bay. One of my really good Texas friends got in last night, Ashley, and she brought me a Texas care package, which means homemade tortillas, a pack of 50, giant pack of fajita seasoning, and some coasters from my favorite Texas car wash chain. Yes.

She knows me well. Wait, what? You said coasters? Like for drinks? Coasters. There's this Texas car wash chain called The Wash Tub that's just like everyone goes. It's the thing. It's the spot. And every location also has a gift shop because why not? Capitalism. And they sell these really fun and quirky coasters that are like Texas themed. She brought me two. Okay.

One just has a big logo of Big Red, this iconic Texas soda. Anywho, Texans listening, y'all know. Okay. I now know because I will be at this birthday party now. I originally was not because I'm LA. I was like, oh, I have things. We'll see. We'll see. I,

I came back into myself. I was like, girl, move those things. And I appreciate it. I'm moving it. But now I'm very excited. But now I want to find that Texas soda you just mentioned and see if there's any available in the L.A. area to bring to your party. Y'all think Mountain Dew is something. Big Red is that girl. I might send you a pack. Stay tuned. Stay tuned.

I'm down to try. I'm down to try. Well, happy birthday. Thank you. And everyone listening to this, please wish Sam a very happy birthday as you listen to this because he deserves and he is a Leo and Leos do best in bright, shining sunlight and be that sunlight for him today on his birthday.

Now that's a friend. Zach said, pay this man some attention. And he is right. I want it. Send him a drink if you see him in public. Take care of him. There you go. Demure, cutesy, and mindful. Yeah, mindful. Yes. Okay. Well, with that, let's jump into it. We're going to talk about the latest Kamala news and a dash of Trump. And then we'll just get right to Zach's

lovely interview with Sophia, former friend of JD Vance. Gonna take a quick break and then we'll jump into the Kamala and everything else of it all. Stay with us.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, we are back. And Zach, we have to talk through what we've been texting about. Yesterday, you, me, and Nora, our EP, were furiously going back and forth about the latest on Kamala. I have a lot of theories and thoughts, as do you.

But I think I want to start by asking what you make of the newest crop of polling data we have on her campaign. New polls have Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, after having their ticket confirmed for a little over a week now, has her leading Trump in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and Arizona. Mm-hmm. Who?

and in striking distance of Florida. How did that happen? That is wild. Florida came in. Suddenly, people woke up. And that's what I really think will happen. People woke up like, oh girl, there's an election. We have things to do. Things are happening. Yeah, it has been stunning. And I think these past few weeks will go down in political history as some of the most incredible, like, ahistoric that have ever happened because we've never seen a candidate change

change in viewers' perception of them so quickly. Her favorabilities have skyrocketed. Like double-digit growth in favorability in the span of a week or two. And this is of a candidate that the nation has known for years. 1,000%. They have known her for so long. And this is like, I mean, let's go backwards in time. Last time I was embedded in a campaign, 2019, 2020, Kamala Harris was the first one to drop out.

very, very early. And that wasn't because people were like, "Oh, she's going to be VP. Oh, she's doing this strategically." No, she did it because no one liked her at the time. It was wiped. Like no one was into her. And then she became VP after George Floyd's murder happened. And people were like, "Eh, this may be because of a few identity reasons.

I don't think it was that. I do think Joe Biden does see something in her. I saw it when I met her and interviewed her, and it's now coming to fruition. This kind of folklore we've had about Kamala Harris being this magical politician when given the opportunity to be so. What's wild, though, and putting this in layman's terms,

It's like you're at work, your manager, you're not a huge fan of, don't love. You never thought of them as being like the leader of the company. But the leader of your company steps down, they go away, there's a vacuum of power. And then suddenly your manager becomes the current CEO and everyone's super excited.

profits start soaring, the markets respond positively. And you're like, there was zero data that showed that this would be possible, but it is not possible. And I think what this speaks to is that people were asleep. They were very tired of the status quo and they'd kind of given up and they had no hope. But to see a moment that really doesn't happen ever. I mean, Biden choosing not to be on this ticket is a huge deal. Look to India, Modi, very old person.

person, not willing to give up power. You look at any major powerful person, especially a man over time, they die in a disease. They stay. Xi Jinping has changed the laws. Putin changed the laws to stay in power. Biden stepped away. And I think that historic moment opened the door for us to all dream bigger and be like, what is possible in this moment? And Kamala rose in that moment. And I think it now makes sense, but at the time, no one predicted it. What about you, Sam? Yeah. I

I find it very interesting because Kamala Harris has had this meteoric rise over the last few weeks without having to be really, really specific on policy.

And if you look over the course of just this shortened campaign season, she's already kind of gone back and forth on fracking, which is an issue big to Pennsylvania voters, a swing state. She's wobbled on Medicare for all. She's wobbled on what she would do with FTC head Lena Kahn because some wealthy donors don't like what she's doing to business.

And of course she is stuck in a weird spot on Palestine and Gaza. She said this week she wants a ceasefire, but she still seems to support the Biden stance of sending money and bombs to Israel.

And what I find really interesting about this is that we've reached a moment in this campaign, and this maybe has been true for many others, where the policy is a secondary point. And the biggest point is the vibe. Kamala's ascension represented a vibe shift for Democrats. It wasn't specifically a policy shift. And the further you push her on policy, you realize she's not really concrete on a few things.

So this has become a vibes election. And these swing state polls show me that. All of the last few weeks show me that. And I'm still processing how I feel about that. Because I do want the vibe to be not Trump again. I like that vibe. But we are in a season where I feel like we're just not talking about policy. And this is also in part due to Kamala Harris not having to go through a primary this go-round.

Usually in a primary, if there are multiple candidates in one party facing off for the nomination, they actually will talk about policy and move left or right and refine their policy goals. She missed that part, doesn't have to do it. So it's like, does that mean that we'll just keep surfing on vibes till November, Zach? I don't know. I think we may be surfing on vibes because Trump himself was a vibe when he got elected.

elected in 2016. He tapped into a vibe that I didn't realize was roaring in many parts of the country that people were like very angry, very upset. Yeah, there was like these white people were upset. I had no idea. I was not aware of this, but I became aware because he won at the end of the day and he almost won again in 2020. That was a very, very tight race. But all that was not

on substance. It was vibes. Donald Trump has flip-flopped on policies, his own registration to vote. He was Democrat once. Like, this man has been all over the place. He's given money to Kamala Harris before. Yes, exactly. But he has been consistently racist as a vibe. He's been consistently a capitalist as a vibe. He's been consistently about being a narcissist as a vibe. And that's been the same. And I think what Democrats have realized is, you know, policies can shift, actually. You can, like,

market test that. But what people are looking for is authenticity and consistency in vibes. And Kamala, what I'm seeing emerge on my own side of this is that, you know, I have felt this confusion in a flip-floppy nature I have felt with her that I'm like, oh, God, she's this way. And even, you know, the Republicans call her flip-flopping Kamala. It's a term that they've been testing and it's been gaining some traction, but not in a huge way. But what I'm

What I now believe as I think about this is that she really likes to market test things. She's like, "Okay, this is where the market's at. Let's just see if we just say this." If I say, you know, when I think back to defund the police or defund ICE,

People were really angry about those moments in politics. Kamala Harris herself is getting beat up right now for her statements on ICE. I personally stand with those statements from back then. I did a lot of reporting on the border. What ICE was doing was awful, and they are acting like, I won't even go there, it's violence at its utmost on the border, what they're doing.

But Kamala is doing a thing that we see activists, the activists that pushed her while she was a DA, while she was an AG, like all these things, like these activists that are saying, let us dream the biggest dream possible. What would it be like to live in a world where police didn't need to exist? What would it require to go there? It would require access to housing, equal pay, access to education, all these things. Why not fight for that?

big dream, not these incremental things that can kind of get us there. And I think Kamala Harris as a president will be our president that dreams the biggest in ways that

Barack didn't and when she's like, okay, let's let's just take the most extreme version of this What stands once we shake it a lot? What can we actually make happen and how can we use that to move forward and not like on these little yes piece Meals of things and that's where I sit with her I think she's a dreamer of many ways in it. She has to be she's the daughter of two immigrants a Jamaican man an Indian woman But this America was not meant for them and they made it for them. Yeah, and I think what you're addressing is

might just be a different type of leadership style. Like if Kamala Harris ends up being a candidate and a president who listens to all the voices and factions in her party and then says, okay, we're here. For a long time, that could be seen as flip-flopping. But what if, and remains to be seen, what if it's just consensus building? That's what I hope.

But we are already seeing Kamala Harris start to understand that she's going to have to live with those most progressive voices within the party. While we were on hiatus, I'm sure you all saw that viral clip of Kamala pretty much shutting down pro-Palestinian protesters at a rally saying, if you want Trump to win, keep going. But if not, I'm still speaking. It was very strong, stern and harsh. And some folks on the left said, this ain't the way to do it.

She listened. She changed course. She got talked down to again this week by some hecklers and some protesters who are pro-Palestinian. And her message was different. She said, I'm here to fight for our democracy, which includes respecting the voices that I think that we're hearing from.

And she said, I have been clear. Now is the time to get a ceasefire deal and then a hostage deal done. Now is the time. And the president and I are working around the clock every day to get a ceasefire. What a difference a week makes. I think this is an example of what you're talking about, Zach. Like she reads tea leaves. Like she reads tea leaves and says, okay, maybe I should say it different this time. And I also think it points to the role of protests and the role of hecklers that are campaigning and protesting

and believe in these issues for real, for real. Protesters' job is to protest. The more you tell them to not protest, the more they will protest. So the question for Kamala Harris is not how do you shut down the protesters? It's how do you incorporate them into your campaign? What is the role of protest in your campaign?

And it seems as if she's starting to do that because they're not going anywhere, girl. They're going to be here. They're not. And I love that they're there. And that's what protests are supposed to do. And protests are so useful when there are campaigns happening, when you do shut down the highways, when people are trying to get to work and they know that they have to vote in two months. And they're thinking about like, why did the 405 shut down the other day? Oh, because of, you know, Gaza and

Israel and what they're doing. So like you have to, it becomes no longer abstract, but it becomes very material to your life. And that's why I love protesters. I've covered protests forever. I think they're so important because they remind you that like the world isn't happening far away. It's not happening just on your TV. It's happening every day around you and it trickles backwards and touches you in these, the most significant ways. And I'm excited about a future in which my president is

does see my tweet, does hear my protest, does consider my voice because that was the whole purpose of creating the United States of America. Like we have lost the plot as a country that these people should fear voters because they have to do right by voters to stay in that office.

Because they work for us. Exactly. We got so comfortable with dynasties, the Clintons, the Bushes, now the Trumps. And Kamala Harris isn't a dynasty at all. She's very self-made. And she knows that how she got there was by listening to voters and listening to her constituents. And I think she will continue to do that. Well, I hope so. I hope so.

I hope so. Also, let us not forget Barack Obama faced protesters and hecklers before, and they were heckling him and protesting him over same-sex marriage. And you know what? Eventually, the protesting worked. What happens all the time with protests, especially on the left—

You look at them like they're crazy and say, why are you disturbing us? And why are you making all of this stuff weird? And then five years later, everyone says they were right. Yep. Everyone. Every time. Every time. Yeah, every time. Every time. So yeah, to these protesters, keep doing your job.

It is working. Yeah. In other news, before we close this segment, do we have to talk about what Trump is doing right now besides spiraling? Oh, we must. We must because it's kind of enjoyable in some ways now in ways it wasn't before. So something I want to start off with is a new poll released

just came out today, CNN was reporting on it, and it finds that 58% of all voters think President Trump is too old to run, which before wasn't a big deal because Biden's rate was at 73, 74% of voters didn't believe he should run. But Kamala Harris's, her rate is 11%. There is an

Who are the 11% who say this very healthy 59-year-old, too old, the ageism of it all? It's really ageist. But the script in which the Trump campaign was using against Biden has now become the script applied to them, and they are crumbling under its weight. Sam, how have you been watching all this?

kind of unfold and fall apart yeah i've been watching and listening to his press appearances to his credit he is giving more press avails than kamala is right now uh he just implodes every single time every press conference every call he's done with press since kamala's announced

You hear and see a man who is really worried about losing and lashing out. The things he says about Kamala, I won't get into because it's kind of beneath this show, but he sounds a little crazed and stressed and manic. He did this event with Elon Musk on X this week. Sounded a mess. I mean, they both did. But at a certain point, you're like, my brother in Christ, nothing you're saying is helping you. At one point, he said that he was proud of Elon Musk.

for firing workers during the pandemic who were lobbying for more pay. And it's like, you can say that. It's not helping you. Also, all the unions, like the UAW, came out against him and I think has filed a lawsuit against him after those statements. So it's like, you guys are just walking into fire, like intentionally. What is wrong with you? It is really, it is wild. It's something else. You know, we are...

seeing that the Democrats line of attack with the whole weird of it all is working and has gotten under his skin. We're also seeing that JD Vance has been kind of a dud. And so I feel like the only way to see if the vibes that we're seeing right now shift is

will be a debate, which has now, I think, been agreed to for the candidates for president and for vice president. So what I'm watching now is just kind of patiently waiting for the debate. I think we're going to be in this stasis for a little bit. The debate might shift things. But for now, I just think we're like watching Kamala and Tim Walz for the next few weeks, looking really happy at these crowded rallies. And we're going to hear Trump on weird phone calls. Like that will be the next few weeks. Yeah, he is doing more media appearances, but they're all with...

Not just friendlies, but like supporters, just outright like... Sycophants. Like sycophants, like these people, influencers who are violating campaign finance laws, like we saw at Mar-a-Lago where that influencer brought him a Rolex. But yeah, these are... Oh, I did see that. That was so weird. Deep friendlies. But something that is weird that maybe we end on today is that there are some emerging overlaps with Kamala and Donald Trump. Yeah.

Yeah. And you, Sam, pointed that out to me first. Do you want to talk a bit about the policy of it all? Because as this episode drops, we know that Kamala Harris is in North Carolina, maybe speaking as you're listening to this, showing what her new policy platform will be. Yeah, yeah. So on that note, Kamala is set to this week announce a broader economic policy vision, which will include, for the first time ever, a major candidate for president,

arguing for a first ever federal ban on food price hikes. Very interesting. One might say very cutesy. But in other economic news, after Trump pushed for this for a while, Kamala said, I'll do it too. Trump has been saying for a while that he wants to no longer tax the tips of service workers. This is actually a proposal that the left and the right in a lot of cases agree upon.

Kamala, quietly this week, said, I agree. Me too. I support this policy as well. And it speaks to this point you made earlier, Zach. Like, she kind of reads tea leaves and adjusts. And that can be seen as a policy wobbliness. But in this case, it kind of just seems strategic. Everyone likes this proposal. Get on board, Kamala. Yeah. And that's what I think is going to be the game changer with this election is that

For me, Kamala is to her core a populist in the ways that Trump could never be. Like she really being a Black Indian woman from, you know, a more working middle class family. From the Bay, baby. East Bay. That is, come on. She, you know, she is like a canary in the coal mine. You know, what impacts her as a person, as a woman of color, you know, is kind of like what everyone else will eventually feel first.

So I think what we're gonna see is that, you know, she's not going to be precious about what is a liberal thing, what is a conservative thing. She's gonna be, what's a person thing, what's a human thing. And she's gonna build a coalition across that. And that's why her positioning has been so obsessed with the middle class, 'cause she's like,

Middle class stretches across every racial, ethnic, geographic identity. And that's where we'll be at the space where Trump is, you know, very specific. He's only catering to a certain type of white man and the people that support those types of white men. So I think, you know, in such a close election, Kamala's lean towards populism is going to be the thing that saves her and gets her the ticket to the White House, I think. Yeah. I was going to make a next I want the no longer tax policy.

podcasters proposal, but actually tax me. I want highways and roads and libraries. Wait, what's so funny? I want earthquake mitigation for LA. I'll pay my taxes. Wait, Sam, to your point, the right is really fumbling on a tax to the left because they'll release things like things like you just said, like they're going to do this to your taxes. You're going to be paying for school lunches. You're going to be paying for more education. And all of us on the left are like,

Great. Yeah. Where do I sign? School lunches? Feed these babies. Can you make a TikTok of the kids getting free lunch? It'll make me cry. Like, I want to. Can I visit the school? Can I serve the food? Like, it is hilarious. Like, they listed everything Tim Walz has done as a Minnesota governor. And everyone was tweeting, like...

This is incredible. Can you do this everywhere? Free tampons for girls at school? Yeah. No brainer. No brainer. Crazy, crazy idea. Very exciting. That is all we got on the politics of it all right now. We're going to take a break. And when we come back, we've got Zach with Sophia. Stay right there.

Thank you.

It's like a cheat code for success. The tech career you want and a life you'll love. Have it all in the heart of it all. Learn more at callohiohome.com.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden. Sophia, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Of course. So to get us going, I want to go back to...

college. Your college days have become quite a new story lately. You went to Yale in the year 2010, which was the year that Obama was still in office. The world felt a bit different back then. It felt very hopeful back then in ways that it doesn't really feel these days, in my opinion. And in law school, you went to school with J.D. Vance. In his book, he writes that during that time, you guys were part of an

island of misfit toys, which I think is such a funny, funny term to use. So tell me about that time. What was it like being on that island with JD at Yale? What was life like for you then? Well, I appreciate you giving me a few extra years younger. I was not college. It was law school. But JD and I did attend Yale Law School together from 2010 to 2013. And we were in the same small group. And

which is a group of 16 students. That's how the incoming classes are divided. And you take all of your classes with that same 16 people. And you spend a lot of time together. And I got to know JD and obviously the other members of that small group quite well. But JD and I became friends. We had a lot of commonalities despite our differences, having both grown up in working class communities in the Midwest and

not coming from an elite coastal background. And we bonded over that and enjoyed, I think, having a friendship across political difference because we could respectfully discuss hot topic current events with each other in a way that I think made us both smarter because we could test the vulnerabilities of our arguments.

And I really appreciated that about him. And I think he appreciated it about me. And our friendship continued after law school. And he did write about it as an island of misfit toys in his memoir. And that's because it was a really diverse group of people. And the commonality between us, we were all curious and we were all relatively driven. I mean...

It's a lot of luck that gets people into an Ivy League school, but it's also some extent, you know, having a type A personality. Yeah, no, for sure. Well, talk to me more about the environment of that space. You know, I didn't go to Yale, but I know it's a very competitive place. It's a place that also brings a lot of wealthy kids, a lot of kids from the coastal cities, not kids from places where you grew up or where JD grew up. So what was kind of the cultural tension you saw on campus and what were things that you faced as a student back then?

There is a definite divide between the vast majority of people who attend the Ivy Leagues, whose parents attended the Ivy Leagues. They went to private K-12 institutions that are elite. It's a well-worn path for the 1%. And if you break into that world from some other dimension...

It can be a bit of a culture shock, and it certainly was for, I think, both J.D. and I. We took very different approaches to that experience. I already knew that I wanted to come home and serve my community and the kind of climbing the ladder, rising the ranks. It already occurred to me during my time at Yale Law School that I did not want to participate in that. And so I think it made it a much more enjoyable experience for me because I just kind of opted out of a lot of that stuff.

JD didn't. And I think he ran into a lot of barriers and it fueled a lot of his anger because he was seeing the gatekeeping and the ways in which even if you work really hard, get good grades, get high test scores and end up in those institutions.

There are other cultural and money barriers that might prevent you from succeeding. That said, he broke through all of those barriers and became a very, very adept navigator of that space. So they weren't barriers that stopped him, that's for sure.

Yeah, yeah. And at the time, you know, when you talk about barriers and Ivy League educations and breaking glass ceilings, depending on identity, I think a lot about, you know, Obama, who was president at the time. You know, Obama, Ivy League educated, broke through a lot of barriers, comes from, you know, a working class background. And he also rose at a time in which we as a country began talking a lot more, I think, thoughtfully about issues that impact all of our lives. You know, gay marriage wasn't legal back then. Black Lives Matter protests

movement hadn't really begun in the ways in which we see it today, but we were having really hard conversations about identity, politics, etc. Do you remember your conversations with JD back then? What were some big topics you all were exploring and pushing back against each other on as students together? A lot of our dialogue continued after law school and I remember those conversations more because they're just more recent.

But we talked about the Black Lives Matter movement, police brutality, the wealth gap between black and white Americans, redlining, reparations, affirmative action.

queer rights. And we talked about Obama. His previous iteration of his personality and values had a deep respect for Barack Obama. He disagreed with him on some policy issues. But J.D. really valued integrity and just being a good person. And I think he saw Obama as a decent role model, someone who worked really hard, succeeded, returned

to their community to give back, got married, raised a family, treated everyone with respect. I think a pretty good guy. Yeah, he was very beloved. And I think there was an era of America where a lot of people saw him as the sign of hope. But now recently things have changed. And change is a big thing we're seeing with Republicans these days. They're shifting their policies, their thoughts. And J.D. Vance is someone that has definitely amplified a sense of change in his own political positioning. And you've kind of had a front row seat to all of that. So talk to me about

When did you start seeing his own politics shifting? Because your friendship seems like it began as a place of mutual respect, of dialogue, of having a conversation, which feels very American at its core. It's about different people from different places having a conversation all the time. But it does seem like over the years, things seemed a bit strained. And now especially, he is of a very different mindset these days. So when did you begin to see that shift change?

2019 through 2021, there were seeds being planted in 2019 and then it kind of grew from there. So what happened is J.D. was exploring a Senate run in 2018 to run against Sherrod Brown. And the polling and the consultants that came back from that exploration of potentially running for office in 2018, it became clear that his public persona and his stances on the issues, there was no path forward in Republican politics in Ohio.

if you're going to be an ever-Trumper, if you're going to support middle-of-the-road policies. And so he had hit a political ceiling and he had a decision to make. Be patient, wait it out, maybe run for office in 10 years.

Or change his mind about every conceivable issue and change the way he talks about people, mimic Donald Trump and the kind of divisive cruelty of Trump. And he chose the latter, which was a relatively quick transition, but also something that I saw kind of ramp up from 2019 to 2021 and his ultimate decision to run in 2022. And our...

ended over his stance on criminalizing access to gender affirming care. Mm-hmm.

And when this happened, how did you kind of deal with that in the beginning? I know now it's been a few years, so you've been able to process it. But at the time, you two were close. He was a confidant of many sorts. You shared a lot of personal triumphs. You graduated together. You went to his wedding. But then you started to see this person that was so close to you. And I think a lot of people listening have had people they've been very close to their whole lives that love them. But then their politics start shifting really quickly and they begin not to love them in public.

in the ways that they thought they would. So how did that feel when you had that falling out and realized that he may not be supportive of folks like you outside of your relationship? I was angry. I was disappointed. I was hurt. I was confused. And I pushed back because the man that I had gotten to know

was curious, was open-minded, was rigorous in his thinking. And he was kind of spouting these ad hominem justifications. And it sounded more like gut feelings instead of evidence-based. So we had this back and forth about gender affirming care where he was saying more kids are identifying as non-binary or transgender. And that's a problem. And it's because basically there's cultural pressure to be trans, which makes my head want to explode. Yeah.

anyone who's trans or queer knows that it's certainly not something that's rewarded in mainstream culture, but whatever, that was his perspective. And I pushed back and said, you know, for example,

When we used to beat kids for writing with their left hand, it was amazing how few people were left-handed. But then when it became okay to be left-handed, obviously a much larger of the population we realized wasn't left-handed and it doesn't hurt anyone to be left-handed. So isn't it great that we don't hit kids anymore for being left-handed? And maybe as cultural acceptance for transness expands, there are less...

children that are devastated and try to deny who they are, are unable to live authentically and struggle with depression and gender dysphoria and all the things that come along with that. And isn't this a positive change? And his reaction was basically, you don't honestly believe that you're smarter than that. You've been brainwashed by Jeff Bezos.

And I was like, no, I'm speaking, one, from the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, all these groups that have studied this and treat these kids. And frankly, you know, the medical industrial complex isn't exactly a progressive institution, right? This is a relatively conservative group of people that have come to this conclusion. And two, I'm speaking from personal lived experience in my community. I have a lot of trans friends. I am trans. So this is both evidence-based and also...

This was my experience, so don't tell me what's happening here. This is a cultural phenomenon of increased social acceptance is somehow pressuring people to come out as trans. And it reflected both kind of a callous disregard that I've never seen in him before, a lack of rigor in his intellectual thinking that I'd never seen in him before, but also just mean-spiritedness to tell a trans person that,

that they're wrong about trans identity and that they're wrong because they've been brainwashed by Jeff Bezos. And the exchange we had, it was pretty intense. And I said, I'm a union member. I'm a proud UAW member. My political opinions are not shaped by Jeff Bezos. And also like Jeff Bezos and I don't agree on anything. Does Jeff have an opinion on trans issues? I have no idea. I don't

really care. I actually don't think he has made a statement about that. But no, yeah, to your point, he's like, this is not someone you're looking to for guidance. But it does sound like something someone recently said about J.D. Vance. I think maybe it was Ezra Klein. He said that J.D. Vance is very online in the most conservative way. Yes. I've been a journalist for so long and I'm very online, but a very liberal online. But he is very much the epitome

epitome of being a far right online where you're just kind of being mean and not really having a fully fleshed out logic. It's very much based on like deep Reddit threads. Is that how you felt kind of listening to this new politic that it feels very right wing online in sorts?

Yes. And it took me a while to understand that because I'm not very online in either direction. I've never been on Twitter. Congratulations. And so I'm not I'm not in the liberal bubble and I'm not in the right wing bubble. I am a very progressive person, but it's, you know, whatever. I go to my union meetings. I engage in politics on a much more local level.

But I started exploring the right wing world. You know, once Peter Thiel gave him $15 million, he mentioned to me Curtis Yarvin. I'd never heard of who that was. And I started digging in and I was just, my head exploded. This is some really weird stuff, but it's also deeply scary for LGBTQ people, for women, right?

This agenda, I think, is organized. It's incredibly well-funded. It's incredibly fringe. And it's incredibly insular. And it's one of the most intensely misogynist communities. And it became very clear in talking to J.D.,

in that period that he was living in this echo chamber of those men and he was buying into what they were selling. And they had actually bought him, right? $15 million is a pretty decent amount of money. Yeah. And something that's so interesting about this certain subset of men, these Peter Thiel's, the Elon Musk, et cetera, is that they also are

have this incredible ability of holding contradictions without really realizing the contradictions in themselves. And it really plays out online. So an example to bring you into a big Twitter conversation, if you haven't picked up on it lately, is that, you know, J.D. Vance has become very against gender-affirming care, drag queens, queer rights, all of these things that are very Trumpian and very far right at the moment. However,

Pictures just this week emerged of him in drag. People were saying he was in drag when you all were wearing college. So one, have you seen these photos? What do you think of the photos? And also how do photos like that kind of show that people like JD aren't as consistent in their politics throughout even recent years in their lives?

I've seen the photos because a lot of reporters sent them to me asking me to confirm them. I wasn't at that party. I did not. I've never seen JD dressed like that. To call it drag is kind of offensive to me. Yeah. That's like the worst drag I've ever seen. Yeah, it was pretty bad. Drag is a form of art and expression. I don't think that's what he was doing. I don't really know what he was doing. I also think

you can play with and explore gender however you want, even as just a joke. That's fine. I think the bigger concern here is this is someone who had queer people at his wedding. This is someone who supported gay marriage. This is someone who brought baked goods to their friend, me, when I had gender-affirming surgery in 2012. So him dressing, whatever, wearing a wig and eyeliner and a skirt is a form of hypocrisy, but it's just not something I think that I would take that seriously. But

The fact that he had loving and caring relationships with queer people, supported queer rights, and now to advance his own political career, he's willing to turn his back on those people, those communities, and his core values,

I think is a much more important form of hypocrisy than whether he wore a wig in 2011. And it's, it is reflective of all of those people, right? So we have Peter Thiel is a gay man. Yeah. He's married. He has children that he adopted with his husband and,

And yet he is the number one financer of some of the most anti-LGBTQ politicians in this country right now between Blake Masters and J.D. Vance. What it shows is if you are a billionaire, the rules don't apply to you. Yeah. Right. Right.

J.D. Vance is advancing an agenda for everyday Americans that is trying to use government incentives and government power to coerce people into heterosexual reproductive marriages and keep women out of the workplace. His wife, who I was also friends with and had a deep amount of respect for her intelligence and ambition, was a very high-powered corporate lawyer until...

three weeks ago. So it's trying to force other people to live a certain way, to amass your own wealth and power. And it's not even a way that you're willing to live your life. And that to me is a deep hypocrisy that I don't think reflects the kind of integrity that we want in our leaders. And I think that's

indicative of the extremely coercive effect Donald Trump has had on our politics. Because it's not just fanning the flames of racism and anti-Semitism and queer phobia. It's changing the way we talk about each other and to each other.

I love that. You know, I want to just return before I let you go to the J.D. Vance of it all. You all aren't speaking, as you've mentioned, but you did have a really deep friendship and you did trust him and you did care for him. And I know that in his recent statement, he shared something of the sort of saying he still has love for you or still has respect for you. I'm forgetting the exact framing, but it wasn't as mean as I'd expect coming out of the Trump campaign. You know, J.D. Vance's political evolution has definitely seemed it's all been about power and amassing power.

But do you believe there's been some personal deep changes internally for him? Does he actually believe these things or is this just about becoming vice president?

So I think that I don't live in JD Vance's head, so it's impossible for me to definitively know one way or another. But from my own perspective, two things have happened. First, he hit the ceiling of his political career being an ever-Trumper. And so he had to find another path. And instead of being patient, instead of recognizing that there's no amount of power that's worth turning your back on your core values...

He chose a different path. And once you do that, the cognitive dissonance of...

saying something you don't believe every day I think is too much for most of us to handle and so he grasped onto these strong men the Peter Thiel's the Curtis Yarbrough's Elon Musk of the world and eventually he was living in that echo chamber for long enough that I do think he started believing those things but you can see the ways that there's a deep contradiction in what he's espousing and how he's historically lived his life and I think you're seeing how that's fracturing for him and

And so I really am hopeful that a more inclusive, kind, happy message, which I feel like I'm really getting from Tim Waltz, is resonating. And that makes me feel hopeful in a way that I haven't felt before.

since 2008. - And that's a good place to end. I love talking about joy within resistance work. I think it should feel good when you see your rights being maintained or gained. It should feel good to see people fighting for you to live a full life that's equal to others. And Tim Walz and Kamala Harris have, for queer people especially, really signaled that in big ways lately. And I even said to, I think my partner weeks ago, I was like,

oh wow, I didn't realize how sad I was before Kamala stepped into the race. I had been deeply sad. And I think that's rooted in being a Black person, a queer person, just feeling like, wow, we've been going through this for so long and it's not getting better. So for you, as you look to the next 90 days of this election cycle, J.D.'s going up against Tim Walz, Trump's going up against Kamala Harris, how are you feeling as a queer person? Do you feel hope? Do you feel like a promise of a better day next year maybe? I do. And my identity is much more complicated now

than just being queer. I'm also a public defender, which Kamala Harris is a prosecutor. I'm living in the largest Palestinian community outside of the Arab world here in Metro Detroit. So I'm deeply concerned about Gaza and the humanitarian effects of Israel's actions. And I'd like to see real policy solutions coming from the Waltz-Harris administration on those questions. But I will say,

Reading about Tim Waltz as a football coach in the 90s, knowing that he needed to be the faculty sponsor for the GSA in his rural Minnesota school because he knew that that kind of person needed to stand up with the kids that were being bullied in order for them to have a chance. He ran in a conservative red house district in 2006 as a pro-gay marriage candidate and

He's new on the scene. I don't know everything about him, but that speaks volumes to me about his integrity and his willingness to lose a political fight in order to stay true to his values. And that's the kind of leader that I want. Yeah. And do you think you're feeling really hopeful and excited by Walls? Because in my mind...

He took the path that JD Vance didn't take when he got his political career. Like for me, how you just described Walls is everything that I would have expected JD to do with your friendship, with your group of people, that you don't have this person from a conservative area that's a white, straight guy, cisgender, who is in community with queer people. And that because of those relationships, he's willing to fight for them that JD didn't. So are you Walls-filled because he's like the good version of JD Vance? Yeah.

It seems that way to me. And he's like, he's the, you know, I had those teachers in school and my conservative community who could tell that I was an out of place queer kid who are worried about me, but also really, really encouraged me and filled me with hope and excitement about my future. And I think he was doing that for kids in his small town. And I think that deep kindness and integrity is,

is really important and something that we've lost touch with. And I think everyone's like, oh, politicians are crooked, politicians are greedy. And certainly that's true of some of them. But some of them are just genuine people who are trying to serve their country. They're trying to help everyday Americans solve problems. And those, I think, are the ones that

can create real change and also be role models. And so that's all of what you're saying is true. He is like the antithesis of J.D. Vance. And that is great. And I think that's why the contrast is so stark. But he also is someone that reflects, I think, the best of America. Yeah.

No, I agree so much. And Sophia, I want to just say thank you so much for joining me today. And I want to say the reason why I really wanted to talk to you desperately, desperately is that your experience with JD, what you just said about Tim Walls,

is such a great example of something I believe deeply, which is history happens in really small moments. It's in those little interactions with people. It's the person you befriend in college. It's your high school teacher that inspires you to run for your local school board, et cetera, et cetera. But it's in these small moments of your life that big things eventually do happen. And I think your relationship with JD is a great example of that, that who we're close to after

after a few years can really change the world in some really incredible ways, both good and bad. So thank you so much for sharing your story with us. And we're just so happy to have you and your voice here today on Vibe Check. Thank you for having me. And thank you for always holding space for queer people of color and queer joy, because I think I agree with you. That's immensely important. We got to keep the joy. It's hard.

Listeners, thank you for tuning into this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, and leave a review. And most importantly, tell a friend. As always, thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer Rich Garcia, and Marcus Hom for our theme music and sound design. Special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie as Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda. And shout out to Ayesha Ayub who creates our social content.

Listeners, don't forget, we want to hear from you. You can email us whenever you want, vibecheckatstitcher.com. Keep in touch with us on Instagram, on our new page, which Zach masterfully tends to. It's at vibecheck underscore pod. You have like, design is your passion. Like you do, you do like...

It's just really, it's because what y'all are seeing is that queer media is underfunded and I have designed covers of magazines before. So I'm like, ooh, Canva, Instagram, let's go. Bam, it's beautiful. Find us there. Also find us on the Pendleton where for $5 a month, you get direct access to our group chat. It's patreon.com slash vibecheck. A listener chimed in this week on the group chat in the Patreon being like, y'all, I'm getting married soon.

Help me figure out the best song. I'm working on a wedding song playlist for her right now that I'm going to post. Stop. And you won't have access unless you're on the motherfucking Patreon. So come on over there. I love. Did you also say Pendleton? What is a Pendleton? Yes, I did. A listener called the patron of Pendleton. That is an iconic Western brand that has really wonderful blankets.

Oh, wow. Anyhoo. Anyhoo. The Pendleton. Also, listeners, we have some exciting news. VibeCheck listeners can now get a free three-month trial on the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXM.com slash VibeCheck. When you're there, you can listen to over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus sports coverage,

interviews with A-list stars and more again at SiriusXM.com slash vibe check. And last tidbit before we let you go, a little treat before we leave, a voicemail from a former student of Tim Walls. My name is Nicole Grunswick and I had the pleasure of having Mr. and Mrs. Walls, four high school teachers,

at Mankato West in Minnesota. I had Mrs. Walls for advanced English in 11th grade, and I had Mr. Walls for global geography. When I reflect on my time with both of them as teachers, what I really think about is I remember the first day of class, Mrs. Walls made a statement to our whole class that in her classroom, it was going to be a safe space for learning and that differences would be celebrated and that if you were gay, that would be respected.

And this was 1999 when the Army still had the don't ask, don't tell. I had never heard a teacher say something like that. It was really powerful and it's really stuck with me over these years. And when I think back to Mr. Walz's role in helping lead what was then the newly created Gay Straight Alliance, he

He understood that being a male teacher who was married and also the football coach, he understood that it would be really powerful for him to help lead and mentor as the teacher advisor for that group.

It wasn't anything formal with the school district or anything formal with the school, but he and Mrs. Walls were quick to support it. When the Gay Straight Alliance was created, I remember Mr. Walls was quick to volunteer to say that he would be the teacher to kind of advise or be the mentor for the group.

I remember thinking it was really bold to be so outwardly supportive of this new group because it was absolutely something you didn't really talk about. And I can't imagine what it would have been like to be LGBTQ in high school back then.

But when we had an upperclassman who I was in student council with, he came out as kind of our first student who was gay at Mankato West. Mr. Walls and Mrs. Walls were both so supportive. But I think back to how many of my other classmates have since then have come out. And it's just really powerful to think back to, again, how I reflected and just feel about how that was really them showing their leadership there.

But again, for individuals who identify in LGBTQ, I can't imagine. And so it's just something that I've reflected on. And I think there was some bravery with that.

that and I know as a leader I've tried to reflect on moments like that and have tried to stand up and be that voice when maybe it's not the popular voice but to again speak up for those who don't have a voice or maybe can't speak up it's something that I've reflected on and have tried to carry with me and kind of challenge myself to again be a stronger leader more inclusive and supportive of those around me with with differences

All right, listeners, stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Till then, bye. Stitcher. Top reasons technology pros want to move to Ohio. A thriving tech industry with high-paying jobs for programmers, developers, database architects, and more. Ohio is the Silicon Heartland with the top tech brands and thousands of startups too. Shorter commute times mean more time for you. And since your dollar goes further in Ohio...

It's like a cheat code for success. The tech career you want and a life you'll love. Have it all in the heart of it all. Learn more at callohiohome.com.

Hotels.com knows that planning your book club's annual field trip can get chaotic. Ria, the romance reader, wants to stay in Prince Charming's castle. Self-improvement Steve needs a hotel gym. Leela and Jeff, the horror fans, ghosted the group chat about budget. And you've read enough true crime to know that murdering them isn't a real option. With the Hotels.com app, invite all your friends to collaborate and find the perfect hotel together. Share properties, vote on your favorites, and book all-in-one.

Find your perfect somewhere with Hotels.com.