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Hello, ladies. Oh, no. I knew it was coming, and it still devastated me. I was practicing for half a day. I was practicing like a D.A. Tyler Perry. Hello. Hello, ladies. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Sayu Jones. And I'm Zach Safford, and you're listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check. Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

Oh, what a messy week, friends, we have on Vibe Check. We are first going to talk about the Alabama Supreme Court's controversial ruling on frozen embryos. I think controversial is a very diplomatic way to refer to their decision. We'll get into all of the implications. It seems like they didn't think about the implications before they ruled. And if it isn't already clear, we are going to talk about

Let me take a breath. I'm so stressed out. Tyler Perry's new Netflix film, Mea Culpa, for some reason, and the reason is that Sam decided to punish us. This is why we're talking about Tyler Perry.

And I want to have a conversation about it, less about the movie itself, but more about why certain parts of the internet continually feel the need to think existential thoughts about this man and his work.

I really want to go there. I really do. Well, we'll do our best. We'll do our best. I watched the whole movie. You watched the whole movie. Zach watched. 75%. I got to the sex scene and said, I have nothing else to watch. Just the tweets. I'm having flashbacks. Okay. Before we get into all of that chaos, sisters, how are you doing? How are you feeling? Zach, how about you?

I'm pretty good. I'm actually great in comparison to how awful the world has just felt this past week, which I know we're going to talk a lot about. But in my own personal little bubble, it's been a really magical week. And, you know, some of you may have saw, but my birthday was last week, and it seemed to go on forever and ever, which is never...

my intention and when i said it was very much a black person's birthday because they'd be taking a whole month it was kind of like the 12 days of christmas but it was like yeah and it hasn't ended there are other things people have planned for me i'm like what's going on and i think it's because on the show i made a comment about how i family visiting i'm stressed i don't know what to plan all the stuff and people stepped up in my life specifically my amazing boyfriend who rented out a movie theater

Oh, wow.

And, you know, just really gushing. And I've been gushing a lot with Craig. And he said to me something that I want to share with listeners because it really touched me. And he said, you know, Zach, I appreciate all the love, I'm paraphrasing, and the support for this thing that I planned. But I only did it because you let me know you wanted something.

And he's like, and that's such a big part of a relationship is that you communicated a need to me that, you know, I feel like my birthdays I'm not really taken care of or planned for by people. And I heard you and I responded to that. And that's what a relationship is. So thank you for loving me for this. But this is what this should be is that you voice a need and someone responds. And I was like, whoa, okay.

Okay, great. Sounds like Zach said what he wants. Sounds like Zach said what he wants. We love that. That's what Sam was pushing me to do, say what you want. So anyway, listeners, say what you want. You will be surprised what may come back when you say that. So that's where I'm at with it. Also, shout out to this party. It was so fun. I didn't realize until the heartbreaking death scene in Still Magnolias that I still know most of Sally Field's I Want to Know Why monologue. It's so good. I want to know why.

I don't know why. It's so good. It just came out of me in that theater. It's so good. That.

But yeah, so I'm great. And I'm even better because next week, our dear friend Raquel Willis is joining Vibe Check for our SIS series. Her book, The Risk It Takes to Bloom is out. And we go in on that book and her life and her work and how our lives have been intertwined since we were almost teenagers, I think. So it's a really fun conversation. So I'm feeling great. Okay. I love that. Sam, aside from working on your Madea impersonation, how are you doing? What's your vibe? Okay.

Well, you know, I think of the three of us, I kind of watch electoral politics the most because I just, you know, I still got that PTSD from covering election 2016. But this last week or so watching these politicians do their foolishness, it's just had me muttering here in the house. Be for real. Be for real.

We're going to talk more about the IVF stuff after we finish our vibe check-ins, but it has been astounding to watch some Republicans come out after this Alabama Supreme Court ruling and say, well, actually, we do support IVF. And then you look at their record, even a tertiary glance. Yeah.

They contradict themselves. Like it's not easy to find. It's right there, girl. They contradict themselves. Be for real. And I felt the same way. You know, we're taping this Tuesday of this week. On Monday night, Joe Biden went on Seth Meyers' late night show. It was very gently pressed on the situation in Gaza. And he basically was like, yeah, we're trying to wrap it up. We're looking for a ceasefire. We're trying to get things closed before Ramadan.

You're going to go on a comedian's late night show and vacillate and not be certain and not be sure about your stance on this humanitarian crisis.

Be for real. Be for real. How dare you take the gravity of this moment to a late night comic? It really pissed me off. Be for real. Then I see both parties hurtling yet again to another government shutdown. And I'm just like, be for real. Be for real. And so my vibe this week, just watching these people who we pay too much money of our taxpayer dollars to do nothing. I keep saying be for real. That's my vibe.

Okay, a word. That's fair. It's a low bar and watch them stumble right over it. You are channeling like a Tyler Perry movie. You gave us a preacher moment just then. You said, I'm going to testify on what I'm going through.

I wasn't going to say it, but if we had to choose between the three of us, which of us would be most likely to appear in a Tyler Perry movie? I wouldn't be in bad company. Janet Jackson's done Tyler Perry movies. Kelly Rowland's done Tyler Perry movies. We're not doing this. Cicely Tyson? It is. It is. Saeed, what is your vibe for it?

Oh my god. I think the word is tumult. Oh wow. For my current time. One, my Google Calendar is trying to kill me. Like so much, so many deadlines. It is hunting me down. I am fighting for my life over here. I'm imagining your Mac device like running through your apartment after you. Oh girl, it's mean. It's mean. I have so much going on, but hopefully I'll have good news soon to share with people.

But also, it is currently 66 degrees in Columbus, Ohio. I think it was similar yesterday. I looked and it's going to be like in the 70s later this week. And so, you know, climate change being what it is, I was trying to find the damn silver lining. So I opened the windows in my apartment.

Within 30 minutes today of having my windows open, my nose, my eyes, allergies, chaos. I am fighting for my life. I love the jazz hands while he describes it. It is. I am struggling. This is Rose's turn. Why did I do it? What did it get me?

Thanks a lot. Out with the garbage. I am struggling. So, you know, I guess we have a couple of days left in February. I just, I shouldn't be dealing with allergies in February is something I feel. I can deal with an inbox and a calendar. I can't deal with a plot twist from climate change. Listen, we're going to do prayer, Zyrtec, and local honey.

Local honey. Local honey. That's a thing. So that's where I'm doing my best, honey. Sending good vibes. Sending histamine blockers. You're welcome. Bless it. Bless it be.

Before we get into the episode, we want to thank all of you for tuning into the show. You can listen to more Vibe Check every week on Amazon Music, and you can catch some of your other Stitcher faves there as well. And of course, a big shout out to those of you who send us fan mail and reach out to us on social media. We love hearing from you. Keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com.

And I want to take a moment before we get on to the topics of the show, because we've been discussing this and our hearts have been broken about it for the last few days. The horrible, tragic death of Nex Benedict, the non-binary 16-year-old teen who was bullied by fellow students and died. You know, we learn more and more about this case every day. And the extent to which Nex's community and the adults around them failed them is really disheartening. So I want to take a moment just to honor Nex.

and say Next's name, Next Benedict. Yeah, you're right. There is still so much we're learning. And I don't want to jump to conclusions, but something that's been on my mind in the days since Next's passing is that as someone who worked in a high school at one point, one of the more violent things educators can do to kids is turn a blind eye. It

It's not always like bullying or being tough on students. Yeah, that's part of it. But sometimes the way we fail young people is by just turning away and letting the students do whatever they do. You know what I mean? Like letting the children handle whatever and kind of be henchmen for our terrible hatred. And I just feel that's very clear. That's part of what happened.

here. Well, and it wasn't just at the school. So we already knew that administrators didn't call an ambulance for Nex for a while, or they waited to do so. But now we're seeing police tape when Nex was at the hospital, a police officer who was there to help investigate said, oh, you shouldn't press charges because you threw water on them first. Nothing will come out of this case. Then they said, honestly, you got to just put up with the bullying because free speech, you know, free speech. So this officer of the law who was supposed to help this victim

discouraged them from reporting, from pressing charges, and basically said, while Nex was in a hospital, it's your fault. This is a police officer. This is an adult who's supposed to help and care. It's tragic to me. Yeah. And it's just so much. And, you know, we fear that this level of violence was going to begin happening more regularly. Now it is. And, you know, similar to the IVF conversation we're going to have, Republicans haven't.

have laid the groundwork for these seeds they've planted to bloom. And we just, our hearts break for Nex. - Yeah, our thoughts are with Nex's loved ones. And frankly, with queer young people, it is so hard to come into yourself in a country that is sending these mixed messages about identity, about love and self, but we love you. - Yeah. - You are valuable and we want you here. Okay, let's take a deep breath.

And jump in, shall we? All right. Yes, let's do it. All right, listeners. First up today, we're talking about the Alabama Supreme Court ruling that has made IVF pretty illegal in the state and has a rippling effect to the whole country. So to summarize, a groundbreaking move has happened by the Alabama Supreme Court where they have stated that frozen embryos have been officially deemed as legally equivalent to children.

And let's take a pause there and just hear that again. In Alabama, in Alabama, embryos living in labs waiting to be fertilized are now considered children. And if destroyed, it would be considered or it should be considered, according to the court, a death.

I say again, be for real. Be for real. Yeah, it's quite a lot. It's pretty stunning. But, you know, activists have been calling this out and saying this is going to happen. And now it's now it's happened. Now, this decision, while we have been expecting something like this to happen, has still sent shockwaves through the medical community, with several fertility clinics hitting the brakes on offering IVF treatments in the state of Alabama already fearing potential legal backlash.

And here's where it gets even more interesting in ways that I didn't really see coming because the political arena is really shaking, but not shaking. It's very confusing. And that's where we want to dive in here because Republicans are all over the place on this one and can't exactly land on a coherent response. Here's Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama responding to the news this week.

Do you have a reaction to the Alabama Supreme Court ruling on the fact that embryos are children? Yeah, I was all for it. We need to have more kids. We need to have an opportunity to do that. And I thought this was the right thing to do. IVF is used to have more children. And right now, IVF services are paused at some of the clinics in Alabama. Aren't you concerned that this could impact people who are trying to have kids? Well, that's for another conversation.

Whatever I thought that fool was about to say, because I'm somewhat familiar with him, I didn't think it was going to be that. Oh my, his well. And even people like Mike Pence have come out and been like, I don't know, because I

I believe Mike Pence had a baby with his wife via IVF. Yeah, he did. He did. And that's what's very confusing. And I'd love to start there is that, you know, it seems that some Republicans who have a lot of power aren't even sure what IVF really means.

or not realizing that by banning it, it actually goes against a very pro-life movement of allowing more children to be born in this country. So it's confusing. We're going to make it make sense or maybe just make something make sense. I don't know what we're going to do here, but we're going to try something out. So Sam Sanders, your reaction to hearing that and how is this moment different than before with the other reproductive fallouts we've seen in the past few years? I think that the last several years,

been the story of the modern GOP quietly ripping at the seams. There is a majority of Republicans who are Republicans.

And then there is a fraction of Republicans who are diehard evangelical Christians who vote more than anyone else in Republican primaries. And because of the power that they hold in that regard, the entire party has to quietly genuflect to them or loudly genuflect to them. And I think a lot of Republicans who consider themselves quote unquote mainstream, like Mitch McConnell, like Mike Pence, the list goes on.

that they would get to a point where they had given these hardcore evangelicals enough, there's never enough for them. The enough is Handmaid's Tale. That's the enough, right? And I think Republicans are realizing this and they're like, oh, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? Because you know where the polling stands on this. The majority of Americans ever since Roe have believed in abortion rights. They believed in it.

And so that's what we're seeing right now. We are seeing a party that controls half the country being held in a chokehold by maybe 10 or 15 percent of their electorate. This will keep happening.

Yeah, and I would say that 10% to 15% that's really kind of driving this policy trend is kind of like – what is the phrase? The dog that caught the car? They never thought they would get this far. They never thought they would get this far. It's laid bare a lot of things. One, this has demonstrated – and this is not new – how much the Republicans have alienated themselves from science, from education –

From a general understanding of healthcare, I do not expect politicians to be doctors, but I expect them that if they're making policy decisions that deal with healthcare, that they would read the science, talk to the experts, actually know what IVF is. Or even talk to their voters. The amount of moderate or conservative white women who rely on IVF and believe in it. Right. That's part of it. And then I think it also shows that they have no integrity.

In the same way that they argue they are pro-life and they say they care about families and children, and yet they're against things like universal healthcare. They're against free lunches for children. They're against maternity leave. All the things that would actually help children and families once they are brought into this world. This also demonstrates that there's no logic. There's no coherence. It's just fascism. Yeah. And can we

Can we actually drill into that? Because, you know, conservatives are always looked at as not intelligent, as all of these things. And, you know, the senators' statements there kind of prove a version of that very clearly. However, they're systematically changing the country really quickly in a really, like, efficient way. So how is this happening? Oh,

Well, also, I mean, this is also part and parcel of a Republican strategy that has worked for them that they've been laying the groundwork for for decades. So for several decades, once Republicans began to realize that on the policy alone, they couldn't win popular elections—

They began to work their way through state houses and courts. And they said if we can control state houses and our conservative states and if we can control judgeships all across the country, then we can get our policy enacted without ever having to win a national general election, without ever having to control both chambers of Congress. And so the fact that this ruling came from the courts and not from any governing body

That was by design. Republicans have been working on these courts for decades. Pro-life activists have been working on these courts for decades, and they got what they wanted. And that is a sign of their intelligence and their strategy. They're not dumb. They're not dumb. And what makes me more upset is to see Biden and Democrats have a win and not take full advantage of it. This is a win for Democrats. And Joe Biden is still quiet as it's kept, contrived.

Kind of afraid to say the word abortion too much. He barely says it. He doesn't. He like whispers it. Yeah. And then you have policy remedies that Democrats could implement that they just refuse to do. You know, when Barack Obama was president, there was a portion of time where they controlled both chambers of Congress. And the same was true for Biden in his first term. They could have used that moment to codify Roe into law.

They could have passed a bill that says abortion is the law of the land. Take that. They didn't do it. Joe Biden and Barack Obama, especially Biden, after we saw how far right Trump pushed the court with his Supreme Court appointments, Joe Biden could appoint more justices to SCOTUS. He could do it. He doesn't do it. And so to say,

See Democrats have an opportunity to push back on what is a winning issue for them and not do so again has me saying the motif and refrain of this episode. Be for real.

I'd love to point to Saeed's wonderful home right now. Ohio has been getting very real about this issue and has passed major legislation over the past year to protect reproductive rights. So, Saeed, how are you seeing your friends talk about this news in Alabama? I mean, people are scared. I mean, it's interesting. Even here in Ohio, right, where, you know, the ballot initiative to protect abortion in the state of Ohio passed, what was that, November? Yeah.

November 23. As soon as it passed, you know, Republicans in the state started trying to come up with new ways to undermine the ballot measure, you know, so it's a continual fight. I think

It's scary because we see that Republicans are unrelenting. First of all, they're lying. When they say, oh, we're only going to go three steps down this path, assume that they're going 30 steps. They're always going to go as far as they can. And so I don't think anyone's safe. And also, I just want to say, I have such compassion, my heart breaks for the countless families in Alabama today impacted by this decision.

Straight couples, same-sex couples, IVF treatments are expensive. And painful. I believe they're also very painful. And of course, these are people who want to have children, which isn't that what the Republicans always say? They want us all to be doing anyway. So I just also just wanted to acknowledge that aside from the political stakes of this, there are life stakes. People's lives are being impacted by ignorant fools who...

who don't even understand the basics of reproductive health. It's so frustrating. - I want to talk about a detail of this case that has really stuck with me. This whole case stemmed from an IVF lab staffer accidentally dropping frozen embryos on the ground by mistake. - Like dropping a tray or something. - And then they were ruined and not usable. Think about that. This staffer dropped them by mistake.

And a Republican-led court said, that's murder. This is the world that I think Republicans want most Americans to live in. No mistakes allowed. No second chances allowed. No second guessing allowed. Imagine. Actually, we can land a plane here that I feel safe landing. Many of us say this is a fascist group of people. That's fascism. Anxiety about everything. Anxiety about everything and brutal response to things that don't fit into that box. Yes.

And what we saw with this case, which was so stunning and why we were all like, this won't, the Supreme Court won't actually go that way, is because typically in these cases, if a staffer or a fertility clinic or whoever messes up with someone's embryos, it is a case of negligence. It is not a criminal case. This is a case in which you sue and it's usually settled between the fertility clinic and the community.

the parents and you figure it out and people understand. But now the staffer is a murderer. Yeah. And the two things that I'll say is one, you know, earlier in the year when talking about reproductive justice, Sam said, you know, this is about control. Yes, it's about IVF. It's about different policies. But at the end of the day, it's all about control, whether it's how you express your gender, you know, in the case of Oklahoma or whether how you make decisions

decisions about your body in the case of Alabama. And I think it's so significant. Fascism depends on a culture in which you can constantly live in fear of breaking the law just by accident. And if you live in that environment, the chilling effect, that is one of the things that fascism depends on. So yes, this is about reproductive justice, but it's also about the broadness

broader goal of these people, which is to basically have everyone live in constant fear. Because like right now, the Republicans have created a world where drag queens in Tennessee can't do drag in public. Teachers can't bring a book that they care about to school. A fertility clinic can't do their jobs without fear of being charged murder. You know, we could keep going, but everything to sites. Meanwhile, most American workers say their jobs don't pay them enough.

money and everyone needs more health insurance. Kids are in poverty and not getting enough food. Like, come on. Yeah. This is also a labor issue in many ways. Labor in regards to accessing IVF to the women that work with the families to carry the baby. And then it's also a labor issue around, you know, everything else that's going on, teachers, et cetera, that we're not even giving them the resources to do their jobs and feel safe, but instead putting them in a police state for some reason I don't understand. In a police state. You're saying to medical professionals that

If you mess up, we might put you in jail for murder because you dropped the test tube. Jesus Christ. Also, last thing, then I'm going to stop because I'm getting more mad the more I think about this. The incoherent logic. If a frozen embryo were a baby, then how the hell can you freeze it? You can't freeze a baby. You can't freeze a baby. You can't freeze a baby. Oh, this just doesn't make sense. Yeah.

Chantel is saying rap. Chantel is saying rap. And we respect you, Chantel. But that's been a take. Joy Reid was the first one to say that. And I was like, she's so right. She said on her show, you can't freeze a baby. That means it's not alive. You can't freeze. Like, what are you talking about? And I was like, that should be on posters everywhere. So, Democrats, if you're listening, here's your path forward to stop Trump. You just got to say it with your chest. Say it with your chest out there. Listeners, tell us your IVF experiences. I have friends right now going through it. It is a doozy.

Let us know your thoughts on this. We always want to read your emails. Yeah, we do. We do. Well, with that, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with some Tyler Perry to ease our anxiety. You're not already stressed out.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, all right, all right. We are back. And gosh, this might be the biggest, sharpest pivot in Vibe Check history. Oh, yeah.

No, we were already down low. Let's just stay down. Let's just, we were already in hell. Let's just wait in the fire for a bit. We're going to talk about Tyler Perry right now. I know. Yes, Tyler. And I want us to go there because I think there are some larger existential questions about black art and how we talk about it. And these ideas for me are actually in conversation with Cora Jefferson and American Fiction.

So to get there, we got to first talk about one of the worst movies of all time. And I will say to provide some support to my sister here for pitching a Tyler Perry segment, when she got to the part of the argument in the pitch meeting around how this could speak to the moment we're in with American fiction and black art and black film, that's when I was like, I will go through this painful, torturous moment with you to do that. And watch the movie even. And I did that for you. I'm mute. I'm not participating. I'm not endorsing this.

I've been outvoted. Ha ha ha!

So, okay, we're going to land this plane, but first it must take off. Let's start. Netflix watchers, you might have seen, there's a new Tyler Perry movie on Netflix called Mia Culpa. It stars Kelly Rowland of Destiny's Child fame. She plays the lead character named Mia. Like, what? Oh, no. Oh, God. Are you serious? I'm serious. Okay. That's where we're starting. That's where we're starting. That's where we're starting.

Per usual, this movie, which has gotten horrible ratings, kicked up again the Tyler Perry discourse about his art, what it means, should we like it, should we hate it, is it good or bad for the culture? I'm going to talk about that, but first I'm going to ask my sister, Zach, what's your opinion?

to give us, as best he can, a plot synopsis. Because you did watch three quarters of this film. I did. I did. I did. I watched a lot of it. And once I saw the sex scene, I said, I'm good. I can move on. There's no more hope left here. The paint sex scene. There was paint and the floor. Yeah. Was that Trevante Rhodes that we were covered in the paint? Yeah. In Moonlight. Yeah. It's great. It was a great visual, but the movie not so much. From Moonlight to Full Moon Ass. To Full Moon. To Full Moon. To Full Moon.

Okay, what is this damn movie about? So, okay, to get to the core of this, the movie is called Mea Culpa. And the real way to say it is Mea Culpa. It is a word that means, it's from Latin, but it means an acknowledgement of one's fault. That's like the basic definition. Which right there is the issue with a movie about a black woman who is being cheated on potentially and fearing for all these things in her family that she's at fault at core of this. And that's the problem with Tyler Perry's movie at large.

large. It's always a black woman's fault. Always a black woman's fault. For her mistreatment. Yes. But the synopsis of the movie is this. Kelly Rowland is a high-powered lawyer. Her deadbeat husband who just got fired from his job as an anesthesiologist due to drug use has a really complicatedly bad, really

relationship with his white mother. He's mixed. So I saw this as a wow. Yes, mixed people getting held to the fire finally. But she's a lawyer. Her husband and her are having conflict. And then she gets the opportunity to represent Trevante Rhodes, who plays an artist who has been accused of some criminal activity involving a woman. And through this film, she begins to...

Fall in love, have relations with him while also having a PI track with her client while also having weird conflict with her husband whose mom is dying of cancer and hates her. And then the other lawyer on the other side of this case is her brother-in-law. Who's running for mayor.

Of Chicago. I don't know why I'm acting surprised at this fly. Wait, wait. Bloated. Here's the thing, though. So this famous artist played by Trevante Rhodes is accused of murdering either his girlfriend or his wife, but they believe they have a smoking gun because there are bone chips in the paint and his studio. I'm so tired.

Anywho, there's a sex scene between Kelly Rowland and Trevante Rhodes where they ride around in paint in the art studio. It's a lot. I will say, if you don't want to watch it, and you are a, I can't believe I'm saying this, mom, cover your ears, but if you are a viewer of pornography, there's a whole genre of pornography. It's about straight men having sex, but it's for gay men to watch. And that's how Tyler Perry shoots the whole movie. It's very in that kind of- Oh, gay for pay? Yeah, gay for pay, but it's like they're having- I am so confused.

I don't want to say the full term, but it's straight men having sex, but how they shoot it. It's always so that the gaze is on the male as the desirable point. The woman is kind of not really present. And that's how Tyler Perry does the whole movie. And even with the sex. Like Kelly Rowland is the star. Yeah. You see a lot of Shravata Rhodes, a lot of him, like a lot. All right. So anyway, so this movie,

has gotten some of the worst ratings of Tyler Perry's career, and that's saying something. It's got a 17% on Rotten Tomatoes. The Garden said it was, quote, too scattershot and stiflingly pretentious to even be camp. Movie Nation called it soapy, turgid trash. Oof. And yet, I see two things happen with Tyler Perry. His career never ends.

Big stars keep doing his movies, Kelly Rowland and Trevante Rhodes. And I sent y'all some screen grabs of this Twitter dialogue. Every time he does something, we have a conversation about whether or not Tyler Perry's stuff is good or bad.

This is where I want to go with this conversation. What is it about Tyler Perry and what he does that has us black folks, black Twitter, the culture constantly mulling what Tyler Perry and his art means? I can't put my finger on it and I want y'all to help me. Here's my theory about Tyler Perry's success. Tyler Perry thrives because of a

It's like a two-fold void. On one point, there is a void in Hollywood and has been obviously for decades now in terms of representation and storytelling about...

Everyday black people just everyday black people not going for Oscar bait You know just like stuff that like appeals to our grandmothers our aunties our cousins whatever like Hollywood has overlooked that demographic that market that storytelling potential over and over but also the other side That's why I say a double-sided void is that I think black people want to watch more black stuff whether it's good or not and

You know, whether it's like art or, you know, bad melodrama, I think a lot of black people are just like, yeah, but I want to see more and more on TV and that's good enough for me. Well, and this is what distinguishes Tyler Perry's art a lot of the time from...

From the black content that gets the Oscar buzz, the Emmy buzz, etc. A lot of that stuff is all about how black people relate to trauma, how black people relate to white people, and how black people are seen by people who are not black. And what Tyler Perry does really well when he wants to is he situates these black films and TV shows in worlds that are immersively black.

And that's it. And they're not worried about the white gaze, G-A-Z-E. And they aren't doing some of the work that other types of black art feel like they have to do. And I do think that is refreshing for people.

And I think about my mother, who from the time I was a kid was taking my brother and I to Tyler Perry stage plays. Because before there were movies, he was on the literal Chitlin circuit with the stage plays, and black folks loved it because it was very black. And I'm glad you pointed that out because I argue that's also one of the liabilities in the movies, particularly when it's like Madea and –

Was it Rufus? The other characters, the way they interact only makes sense on stage, but he just tries to translate that energy. And it's just people talking over. It's always messy. The jokes don't land. It's, you know, it's funny to be clear. She was not talking about Tyler Perry when we had this conversation, but one of my mentors, novelist, T.R.E. Jones years ago, I think I was literally in graduate school when she said that she was like, listen, black people deserve to have mediocre art too. There you go.

And, you know, I feel like you can actually end up in this weird respectability loop in talking about Tyler Perry, where you're like, no, all of the art that is for black people needs to be presentable and high quality. Not really. I don't know. If it brings people joy at this point, I'm tired of fighting, you know? But it's not for me. I agree with that so much, and

I'm saying this as someone like Moonlight's one of my favorite movies ever. It changed me. I thought it was incredible, all that stuff when I first saw it. However, it is a kind of pretentious film. Barry, the director, is kind of...

It's heady. It's heady. He's not making it for like the everyday man, especially the everyday black man that lives in the neighborhoods that he's filming. And I think, you know, I think a lot about A Strange Loop and in it, we make jokes about Tyler Perry a lot. And Usher, the main character's mother, says to him, she loves Tyler Perry because he writes real life.

And that line always stuck to me because my grandmother loved Tyler Perry. And I grew up watching the bootleg versions of the tapings of his stage shows. The production was so bad, but that's how we watched it. And my family loved it because while it was ridiculous and not, you know...

elevated or anything, it made that part of my family's life really dynamic and interesting in that I did have a cousin addicted to drugs that would come over. I did have a cousin that was a sex worker doing work. It was like all of these like stereotypes and tropes he creates in his film do exist in our communities. But,

he puts them in a way that's kind of human. And I think a lot of people in my family were like, we like that. He's humanizing this because it's not just you're a crackhead. It's, you know, there's a whole experience around that. And he doesn't do it perfectly, but he at least attempts and Hollywood just doesn't give humanity to black people in that way. I keep thinking about the conversation around this Tyler Perry movie in relation and in conversation around all of the conversations surrounding Oscar nominated film, American Fiction. You know, we talked to court on this show and

And he's talked about it. He's gotten to a point where he, in his work, says, it is not my place to say this is good black art anymore or bad black art anymore. Make your art and understand that people are doing what they got to do to make it. I agree with him so much. And I stand strong behind people who make films. Making a film is so hard. Making anything is so hard. So I have a deep respect for that. However, I think Tyler Perry, and we don't have to go deep here, gets a lot of

for helping black people and helping the entertainment industry. But we have a lot of reports of him being anti-union. He doesn't hire writers. I'm not paying that well. He doesn't pay well. He writes all himself. Yeah, and that's the thing. Like, for me, it used to be... I used to, as a young writer, have a real ax to grind with the ideas in his...

And now I don't really care anymore, but I hate him as an industry figure. He is a union buster. Like part of the reason that the writing is so bad is because he refuses to work with like actual writing rooms. Well, this is – and I'm so glad you pivoted to that, the business side of it all, because I want to close this conversation by talking about things Tyler Perry has said in the last few weeks as this film has been released. Talk about –

kind of show where the industry might be headed. So Tyler Perry is one of the most bankable men in Hollywood. He makes money, has a big, expansive studio in Atlanta. He had been talking about expanding his studio with an $800 million expansion, but he recently told a Hollywood reporter, I might not do that. He said, quote,

I have been watching AI very closely and watching the advancements very closely. I was in the middle of and have been planning for the last four years about an $800 million expansion at the studio.

which would have increased the backlot a tremendous size. And we're adding 12 more sound stages. All of that is currently and indefinitely on hold because of Sora and what I'm seeing. Sora is AI. And if Tyler Perry, the biggest black man in Hollywood, is saying, I'm going to spend less money because AI is here, that says something that means something. Zach, can you tell our listeners what Sora is?

Oh yeah, I can. So Sora is the latest product to be announced by OpenAI. OpenAI is the company created by Sam Altman and other people, but it's like the thing shaking the tables around AI. Sora, the best way to think of it is it's text to visuals, meaning you write in text, it becomes a video. With audio, with moving characters. Everything. In the future of this, what everyone thinks could happen is that post-production in Hollywood will just go to

a product like Sora, where you could just say, change this, make this happen, and then you don't have to shoot anything. Nothing has to be... Unions don't have to get involved from the gaffers or whoever you need to hire. And then it just makes costs really low and that people's profits will go up. And that's Tyler Perry at his core as a businessman. It's all about having low overhead to increase his profits because he owns... And that's where he was so radical. He owns everything. He owned his...

Theater is amazing because it lets artists own every part of their work forever and ever. And Tyler Perry began as a theater maker and then used that to create film, which he continued to own. And that's how he's able to amass so much money. Now he's not giving back. And that's the problem with him because his movies are so much about community and taking care of each other. But a lot of people don't feel taken care of by Tyler Perry. And that's a problem.

I also feel that he's kind of reading himself. I'm like, well, honestly, it says a lot about the low quality of your work. That AI, which we consistently see, is not the revolutionary, you know, innovative technology that people always say it is. It's just not. It's basic. And I'm like, yeah, if that basicness can outdo your basicness, well, girl, you have a different problem. Because I know the kind of filmmakers who shouldn't be worried about Sora, Ava DuVernay.

Court Jefferson, Barry Jenkins. Their art will transcend anything that AI can come up with. So in a way, I feel like – I don't know. It's very Ouroboros. I feel like his mediocrity is being devoured by new AI mediocrity. Yeah. Anywho, all this to say there's so much to unpack when one dives into a Tyler Perry film. I'm glad the two of my sisters indulged me in this segment so that we could do just that.

Oh, I am going to save this as a get out of jail free card in a production meeting when I want to talk about something that you don't want to talk. I'll be like, we did the Tyler Perry thing. We did the Tyler Perry thing. I am using this. Listeners, if you've watched this movie, please email me your thoughts. I want to read those emails. And just email Sam. No, come on. Email the whole inbox.

Also, let me know how you feel about Tyler Perry as a businessman because I find that so interesting. And I do think wherever Hollywood goes next, Tyler Perry is going to be on the front line. So as an industry watcher, I'm paying attention. And if that means I have to keep watching Tyler Perry movies, thank God for wine. Oh, this is my one question. Is Medea in the movie?

No. No. That's the problem. Oh, no. Not to say that is too outlandish. Not that. Not that being a bridge too far for this plot. It could have helped. Honestly, if Medea were the murderer, it would have been a great film. 1,000%. If Medea had done the killing. Anywho, listeners, hello and goodbye. We'll be back with recommendations after this break.

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at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden. All right, my loves, we're back. And before we end the show, we each like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. Sam, why don't you get us started?

Yeah, I had, gosh, let me not channel Oprah right now, but I had an aha moment last week about a Beyonce song. I know, girl, I know. It's so good. She does give gifts still to this day. She does, she does.

So me and a good friend and former colleague, music podcaster and songwriter, Charlie Harding, we love swapping notes about Beyonce. I was on his show, Switched on Pop, after Renaissance came out and we broke down the album. And we just texted every now and then about songs we like, music we like, and why. And we both texted soon after the new Beyonce country songs were released, 16 Carriages and Texas Hold'em. And we both were like, oh.

Always love her, but 16 Carriages is for us. Texas Hold'em is for everybody else. 16 Carriages, driving away, watching right with my dreams away to the summer sunset on a holy night on Black Road, all the tears I've

And he basically was like, I want to keep talking with you about Beyonce as his album rolls out because I can only swap thoughts in this heady way with you. And I was like, yes, girl, let me know. Last week, he texted me and was like, Sam, I figured it out. And I said, what? And Charlie goes, I love 16 Carriages so much because the black musical tradition that it's channeling is chain gang music.

And I said, Charlie, what? And he said, yes. Oh, my God. Yes. Listen, he sent me a YouTube video of a song called Poe Lazarus from James Carter and the Prisoners. Chantel, please play a snippet. Oh, well, the day we met, he told her how she was a hang-on. La-ro-o-o-s. He's a danger. Long-range-o-s.

So if you listen to this song on the two and the four, the chain gang is like hitting their instruments and their tools against the ground to make sound. And it ripples. It's like a ripple and a ripple. And if you listen to 16 Carriages, the percussion in that song mirrors it to a T.

Oh, wow. That's incredible. It's a chain gang beat. And then here's the second thing that makes me convinced that it's chain gang music. Chain gang songs were all about chain gangs, black prisoners who were forced to work. And all they sung about in the chain gang songs was work. What does Beyonce sing about in 16 Carriages? Leaving home at 16 to go work, to go make her career. Right.

Yeah, it was making me think because Nina Simone has a great cover of a chain, you know, Breaking Rocks out here. It has that same. Yeah, the moment you said chain, I heard it. It's this weird. I'm just imagining. I think of actually the wheels of the carriages, but I see the loops and the rhythms. I don't have the musical terminology, but I know exactly what you mean. That's so interesting. And what's amazing about you connecting these dots and sharing it with us is that

What I think Beyonce is trying to do in act two through her unpacking of the blackness within country music is to lay the groundwork or show the groundwork that was laid by black people and how it expressed itself. And a lot of times it was through labor, through enslavement, the banjo coming over during the slave trade,

the chain gangs working post-slavery, but still being enslaved in this capitalistic system. But from that pain came country music that then white people stole from. So I love what she's doing here by showing a very graphic history of blackness in America. Yeah, and so my recommendation is

go find some of these chain gang songs. They are haunting and beautiful. This one is from James Carter and the prisoners. It's called Poe Lazarus, but there's so many of these. And I don't know. It's just, it makes me respect Beyonce even more as an artist, you know, that she can channel these traditions and,

Yes. So subtly, but then once you see it, you see it. I consistently go back and forth with Beyonce on this kind of stuff because she will allude to things visually and then not talk about them. And I'm like, imagine how powerful this all could be if you talked about it. I would love to hear a long form interview where Beyonce talks about all the musical influences. We might not get that,

But that said, I'm so just like, I'm so honored to see these connections and make these connections to this music. Like it's on a higher level. It is on a higher level. I like it. It's really beautiful. Zach, what about you? What's your recommendation?

So my rec this week will be a film. I just got to see it actually on my actual birthday because on my actual birthday day, which was Sunday, I took a break and did not require anyone to do anything for me. I was like, I'm going to take care of myself and do things for myself. And one of those things was go see a movie and I saw Perfect Day, which is a

film that Japan has submitted for the Oscar and it's up for the Oscar for Best International Film. It's directed by Wim Wenders and starring Koji Yakusho who's a very well-known Japanese actor but it's such a beautiful film. Everyone should go see it. It's not a lot of dialogue. It's a lot of vibes and feelings because it's about a man in his later 60s who washes toilets around a town in Japan that I'm forgetting the name and it's just about how

his life is really simple and through the simplicity of his life and finding the joys and the little things as he's working and loves his job cleaning toilets you find like a bigger meaning I think to all of us that life isn't sometimes about this hugeness that we sometimes think we require but it's about the smallness and the quiet things that we that bring us joy so it's a really beautiful film check it out yeah I loved it I also love how Zach be watching movies you really do I love it I love it

And also, this is worth mentioning, since you pointed out that it's an entry for the Oscars this year. Next week, we are going all in on the Oscars. So get ready, girls. I'm so excited. It's happening. I'm the most excited about it, I think. You are. You are the most excited. Honestly, it's a big week for Sam. You know? It's a big week for Sam. It's a big week. High, low. It's a big week. Yes.

Well, my poem, my recommendation this week is a poem by Toye Derricotte, who, as it happens, you know, in a couple of weeks, you're going to get to hear my conversation with poet Morgan Parker about her new book, You Get What You Pay For. Morgan and I met at a poetry retreat called Cave Canem that was co-founded by Toye Derricotte, I just remembered. So, I don't know, just kind of fun to bring all those circles of connection together.

The title of this poem, and Sam is going to love this, is The Origins of the Artist, Natalie Cole. Ah. By Toy Derricot. I know, we're excited to talk about Natalie Cole. Yes, yes. By Toy Derricot. Here we go. My father was black, black as suede, black as the ace of spades, black as the grave. Black humbled him and made him proud. At first,

There was a space between us. A mirror flashed back at me. Then his blackness entered me like God.

I think that's so beautiful. Again, that poem is The Origins of the Artist, Natalie Cole by Toye Derricotte. And it's from a new anthology called This is the Honey, an anthology of contemporary Black poets edited by Kwame Alexander. It's possible you might see a poem by yours truly in there as well. I was going to say, you can't have a book.

book about having the queen bee come on you know the sweetest invited to the party but i have such a soft spot for natalie cole um what a legend and honestly you know there's a there's a

And one of the few black women to win the Grammy for album of the year. Yes. And fun fact, one of the churches I went to growing up in Tennessee, she also went to. So I would sit in the church with her. And she would sit high up in this like elevated pews and like kind of look down.

This is a little random, but one of my favorite memories of RuPaul's Drag Race is that in, what, it was like season four, Natalie Cole, and it was like a year or two actually before she passed away, she was a judge on the show and the song was This Will Be. And it was like Dita Ritz of Chicago and the princess and Dita Ritz turned it out. And it was just like one of those moments where...

To see someone like Natalie Cole, who had a really difficult life, like a lot of ups and downs, highs and lows, to have her work honored by a queer Black artist from Chicago, it was just really beautiful. And it is one of the best moments in all of Drag Race herstory ever. I think it's definitely up there. It's definitely my top five. Also, the entire rom-com industrial complex is...

owes royalties to Natalie Cole's family for the rest of time because this will be plays at the end of so many rounds. I'm getting stuck in my head now. Yeah. I love it. Well, Natalie Cole, we love you. We thank you. All right, friends. What are you feeling or not feeling this week? What's your vibe? Check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and that's the show.

All right. It's time for our credits and thank yous. I want to start off by thanking Tyler Perry. Oh, my God. Get out. Leave this Zoom. Listeners, thank you for checking out this episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show, want to support the show, make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast listening platform. And most importantly, tell a friend in person to their face with your whole chest. It works. Trust me. Yeah.

Huge thank you to our producer, Shanta Holder, engineer Rich Garcia, and Marcus Hom for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production.

And of course, we want to hear from you. Don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on social media at Zach Staff, at Sam Sanders, and at The Ferocity. Use the hashtag vibecheckpod. Stay tuned for another episode of our Hey Sis miniseries on Monday. We love this miniseries. It's really great. It's really great. Having a wonderful time. Okay, my loves. Bye. Bye. Stitcher.

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