A Special Conversation with Cord Jefferson
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Hello, ladies. I am Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I am Zach Zafford, and you are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

And this episode, we've got a very, very special, special conversation for y'all. I feel like we've been kind of hyping it up low-key for weeks. You've heard us talk about the movie on this show several times in the last few months, a film called American Fiction. It's on all these year-end best-of lists and is most likely going to get a few Oscar nominations. The director of that movie is

And the writer of that screenplay, Cord Jefferson, he is on Vibe Check this episode. We are excited. I'm snapping into the microphone to show my enthusiasm. I'm excited for this chat. I liked the movie. I like Cord as a person. I'm in the middle of the book this film is based on. I'm ready for this chat. And we should point out here, Zach, you're friends with Cord.

But I knew Cord back in the day in DC when he was still a journalist. We were in the same journalist running around getting too drunk in DC circles. So to see him go from that to this, we are proud. It's amazing. So I met Cord as he was leaving journalism. So I met him like in 2015, 16, I think, as he became a writer. Saeed, you've been friends with him for a while too. But it's just been amazing to see, you know, a sister in the digital media era, you know,

keep growing and becoming even bigger and bigger. I mean, it's very similar to the Quinta Bronson, who is our Emmy winner, who was a BuzzFeeder, and now is the first Black woman in over 30 years to have an Emmy. Actually, 42 years. 42 years. Oh, my God. Wow. Anyway, we're just so proud of folks like Cord, who are able to follow their passions, their

their gut and make decisions that really bring back tenfold. And I just am so excited, Sam, that you got to talk to him because you've known him for so long and you have been really excited about this conversation.

Yeah. And to be clear here, American Fiction, his debut feature, it's pretty phenomenal. It is based on the novel Erasure by Percival Everett. That book's about 20 years old, but Cord found out about it by reading another book review and was like, I can make this a movie. And he did. So number one, that's just phenomenal. But two, the film itself and the book it's based on, it's a really interesting premise. And I want to let Saeed set the premise up of

of the book because he's the writer here. One, it's always great as Zach said to see friends continue as artists to evolve and thrive in different ways and just show the multitudes they contain. But also, I kind of grew up with

this novel, Erasure by Percival Everett. I read it when I was in graduate school. Wow. So at the time when I was in my early 20s studying the craft. So Erasure is set in the 1990s. It's very like a contemporary feel. Court has updated it. But it is about a black novelist academic who things aren't quite going well for him. He's a little...

He's a little unsatisfied. He's got family problems. He's kind of a grump. Yeah. He's kind of an asshole. Well, he is. We'll be honest. He's an asshole. Yeah. And I would say it's kind of like he might have some fair reasons regarding to maybe systemic racism and the way it functions in publishing and academia, for example. But also, yeah, he's on the, as a Toni Morrison character says, the thin side of evil trying not to break through. Right.

He's close to just fully becoming bitter. Oh, my God.

The book that this is all based on, The Response, it's about Push, the novel by Sapphire, which eventually became Precious, which I think a lot of people know. Cultural phenomenon. Yeah, the cultural phenomenon. So just imagine you are a black literary professor doing your work. Maybe you're like, I'm not writing the black novel. I'm writing the American novel. Let's do it.

doing. And then this very unabashedly black urban story that used to be the language urban fiction is like taking off, you know, doing so well. And so in response, he writes what he thinks will just be a little, I guess, private joke.

his own very, like wildly offensive. Crack dealing. Yeah. Dead being dead. Gunshots. The ghetto. Yeah. And it kind of takes off and we'll leave it there. It comes a hit. Yeah. We'll leave it there. You got to watch the film. That was perfect. As someone, I just recently read the book and, uh,

I will say the movie doesn't go as deep and dark as the book does with this fictional book that he writes. It is like breathtakingly, it's a tough book that he writes just off the fly as a joke. And then the joke becomes a reality.

Yeah. And the one other thing I'll say, because Percival Everett is, I think, one of our geniuses. If this is your first introduction to his work, check him out. You will be shook because all of his books are very different. He's always playing with form. He's very experimental. And he's written like more than 30 of them. Oh, my God. He's written a lot of books. It's like a little act. I was telling a friend while I was teaching writing in Vermont. I was like, every time I sneeze, he's got another book coming out. Yeah.

I was like, damn, I can't shit. But in terms of form, what I love about Percival Everett's novel is that the novel that the character writes is published in full within the novel. It's literally, you know, kind of Shakespeare play within a play. It's a novel within a novel. And, you know, it's like, what, 90 pages or something? Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah.

All this to say, you got to watch the movie because to turn all of that into a screenplay that works and is funny and satirical, it's hard. Kord made a movie about a novelist writing a novel in response to a novel within a novel. Yeah. That's hard. That's a lot. That's a lot. And yeah. So anywho, in this chat, Kord and I talk about that. Kord and I talk about how we move from journalism to filmmaking. Kord and I talk about what it feels like to be a black person moving through a very white industry.

I do that in my work. He does that in his work. The lead of the movie is talking all about doing that in his work. It is a really good chat, especially timely as we run up into Black History Month. Anywho, without further ado, here's my chat with Cord Jefferson. Listen to it, and as soon as you're done, go see American Fiction. American Fiction

Corey Jefferson. Hello. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Thank you. How are you? I'm good. You know, I realize now I've known you for many years. I've never been in a studio with you. I know. I think we've known each other probably for 14 years at this point. Shit. Probably met in 2009 in D.C.

Yes. Yeah. Yes, because we both were really good friends, still are, I'm assuming, with Bilal Qureshi. Yep. My former NPR colleague. Yeah. And we all were in the same kind of drinking circles when you were still amongst the journalists. Yeah, yeah. I think that I found D.C. a challenging place to live. And so the people that I did find that I liked, I clung hard to them. Yeah.

You know, when I found you and Bilal and that group of people, it felt like, oh, I've kind of like found my people here. So I spent a lot of time together. It was great. You guys are what made DC bearable for me. You know? Yeah. And then you got out and I got out too. I think Bilal got out as well. He's in LA. Bilal is a block away from me. Oh, shit. I just remember like, and this is all journalists at that stage of their lives in a place like DC. Yeah.

It's just like, how can I drink this much alcohol? How did I do that? Because it starts, gets started at like 5 p.m. every day, too. Then they just walk around and find new cars. Yeah, yeah. Anywho, you're a filmmaker now, and I love that. We'll talk more about that journey. But I think I first want to ask you,

You know, we are at the start of the awards season here in Los Angeles. And you're a big part of that conversation. I was at the official Hollywood premiere of your film, American Fiction, on Tuesday night. At the Academy Theater, full house, whole shebang. It all feels very real now, and it all feels very big. How are you existing in this moment?

Very fragile-y. Yeah. One of the reasons I became a writer is because I like being in rooms alone with my thoughts and sort of like being able to sort of like put things down in a methodical way. And this kind of...

spotlight is unusual for me and it's sort of I feel uncomfortable in it and so I'm very happy talking about the movie because I'm very proud of it but sort of all of the external things that are going on are I'm incredibly honored to be a part of this conversation it's like to be mentioned in the same breath as Scorsese and Christopher Nolan like people whose work I've loved literally since I was a kid and

is an incredible honor, but just getting used to just sort of being the center of attention is hard for me. Yeah. And it's hard to overstate how much for the narrative around this film and in a great way, which I love. You're the centerpiece of it. You know, you, the cast is stacked. Issa Rae, Tracee Ellis Ross, Jeffrey Wright,

But when we talk about this movie, we talk about you and the story of how you found it and how you made it. Because it's really remarkable. Even at the premiere, you know, they're there. The court's talking. Did you want it that way? Or were the folks like, this is it? No, that's the way that people told me that it was going to go. They were like, here's the run of show. And I thought, oh, interesting. The actors aren't going to say anything. Like the famous people who people actually want to hear talk are not talking. And so, yeah, I think that that's partially, though, because...

when we premiered the movie at the Toronto Film Festival, the strike was going on. And so it was really just me. So it was just...

It was cord, you're front and center. We don't have the actors. There's nobody here. So it's you. And so that was the rollout for months was just me, me, me, me, me. So you got practice. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that I became better at it. And that was how we introduced it to the world. It was like, here's Cord Jefferson, the writer and director of this. And so I'm really, really happy that the cast is part of it now, though, because-

you know, obviously it helps publicize it and it takes some of the pressure off me, but also because they're tremendous in the film. And, you know, we always talk about how black actors are underutilized and underrepresented and under supported. And so I'm really happy that they're now able to be out front and accept the accolades that they're getting because they deserve it. That's beautiful. I've actually told friends twice because I've seen it twice now. My

My first thought leaving the movie is one. I loved it. Laugh out loud. Hysterical. But like, oh, Tracee Ellis Ross is a movie star. She's a movie star. We know her from TV. We know her from Black-ish. And she's so comfortable, safe, and excellent in that space. But as soon as she hits the screen, you're like, oh, I would watch you do anything on a big screen. Yeah. I feel the same way about Sterling K. Brown. Yes. Sterling K. Brown's a movie star. Yeah. Those two actors in particular...

I didn't even watch their performances. I'd seen them perform before, obviously. But those two in particular, I watched interviews on late night shows. Yeah, I found that that's sort of a good way to really sort of like understand how a person is going to be on camera and sort of like gets at something that's

that's a little bit more natural as opposed to sort of like how you're going to be on screen. And so I just watched them on talk shows and I was like, these guys are the most charming people in the entire world. They have to be in the movie. Yeah. They're also gorgeous. Yeah, exactly. We can't go any further without summing up this movie for our listeners.

Without too many spoilers, and I want to get to how you wrote it, but first just tell people a quick plot synopsis, no spoiler. Okay, Jeffrey Wright is a novelist slash college professor named Thelonious Ellison who goes by Monk. And he is at a stage in his career when people aren't really interested in his novels. People really largely haven't been interested in his novels throughout the course of his career, but especially now his career is kind of stagnating. And the thing that people tell him is that his novels are not black enough, essentially.

Which is wild. Yeah, exactly. There's this moment where someone describes the book to him as agent or him and someone's like, it's not black enough. And he's like, I'm black. Yeah. I wrote it. Yeah. He says they want a black book and he says they have a black book. I'm black and I wrote it. So they have a black book. Yeah. And he says, you know what I mean? And so what he means by that is, you know, there isn't a black teenager being killed by the police or, you know, a single mother living in the projects. Like these are not the typical quote unquote black stories. And so,

Bout of frustration, he goes home and writes this real stereotypical book that contains all the most absurd tropes and stereotypes about the black community. And he writes it under a pseudonym as kind of a performance art prank that he's going to rub the noses of all the publishers in this kind of like...

that he sort of like thinks is beneath him and beneath them. And it ends up becoming a huge bestseller. It's the most successful book he's ever written. Sort of like the rest of the story is him existing between these two worlds of love

Needing the money that the book is providing because he's got some stuff going on in his personal life that he all of a sudden needs a lot of money for, but also resenting that this book is becoming such a success and resenting where this money is coming from. Yeah. The book that he writes under this pseudonym, it is beautifully absurd. Because the whole thing is him just daring the industry to actually publish this farce of a book, he ends up making them name it Fuck. Fuck.

And Fuck is the name of the book. It becomes a bestseller. But it's got the deadbeat crack dad and the gangbanging son and the sounds of the sirens and just like Ebonics squared. Yeah, exactly. It's wild. And I kept thinking as I watched the description of this book in the movie, would that book actually be a hit today in the real world?

And the answer, I think, is yes. How do you feel about that? That's the thing is that I think that somebody could easily do this. You know, I think that, look, three months before I found this novel, three months before I found Erasure, I got a note from a TV executive about a script that I'd written that I needed to make a character blacker.

You know, that did happen. Was it a white executive? Oh, absolutely. And then I got in and it came through an emissary. Always. Because they would not tell me themselves. And I told the emissary, I said, listen, I...

I will indulge this note as long as this person sits down with me face to face and tells me what it means to be blacker. Tell them with the chest. Yeah, tell me. And of course, that note goes away because they know they're about to commit a civil rights violation if they have that conversation. And so, but yes, I have a good friend of mine who's a black woman journalist, and she's

slowly sort of like trying to get into film and television. And she came out to LA a couple of years ago and took interviews with producers and she went to this production company and they said, what are you interested in writing? And she said, I'm interested in romantic comedies. I would love to write a rom-com. I'm a child of the nineties. So I'd like to write erotic thrillers. And they said, okay, interesting. All right. And we'll get back to you soon with some, some ideas.

And she left and they called her about three hours later and they said, we've got a great idea for you. It's about a blind slave named Tom who, thanks to a wealthy white benefactor, learns to become a piano prodigy and becomes this sort of like, you know, world-class pianist. Oh my God. And it's like, well, that's a weird romantic comedy. Sure is. Or even weirder erotic thriller. Damn. So there is just...

this real limited perspective on what black life looks like, that there is a real rigid...

sort of definition of what a black story is in this industry and in other industries as well. So I fully believe that there's a world in which they would take this and say like, absolutely, let's run with it. It's great. You know, I have faced this same issue in audio. I had one executive for a few years who would never say be blacker, but if black events came up in the news that they kind of wanted to make sure that I talk about, they'd be like, Sam, we'd love for you to meet the moment. Yeah.

We'd love for you to meet the moment. And it's like, okay, message received.

You're not asking Jane and Bob to meet that moment. Exactly. Well, that's the thing that's always interesting, right? And the thing that's frustrating when they assign these kinds of things is like when I was in journalism and people would come to me and they'd say, can you write about Mike Brown being killed? Can you write about Trayvon Martin being killed? I'm sure that if I were still a journalist, they would ask me to have written about George Floyd being killed. And the thing about it is, is that the suggestion there is that like this defines black life and that's why we need you to talk about it.

And it's like, well, wait a minute. It's not just trauma. It's not just pain. But also, wait a minute. There's a white police officer who killed that person. Why don't you ask a white person to write about this? Why do we always think that slave movies are just black movies? Exactly. Who did the enslaving? Exactly. Who did it? Like the idea that slavery is black history. It's like, oh, really? Because I think there were some white people there too. I think it might be white history as well. So this idea that like,

We need a black person to cover this. It's like, well, there was a white police officer there. Why don't you ask some of my white colleagues to write about this? And in fact, it might be more potent coming from them. Bam. Yeah. But this is an entire system that allows for elite white liberal gatekeepers to always absolve themselves. Because if I can say as a white journalist or a white executive, well, slavery is black. Gang shootings are black.

I don't ever have to reckon with how my whiteness and my privilege are part of these systems and structures. That's one of the reasons why, you know, people have asked me about the movie, you know, why do you think these kinds of stories get told over and over again? Why are people so interested in slavery stories and, you know, civil rights stories and crack dealer stories? And the thing that I always say is that in those kinds of stories,

they still center whiteness. Yeah. You know, like a slavery movie, you still have a white slaver, right? That person still exists. And there's usually some white person who like makes the good choice at the end. Exactly. And so it centers whiteness and it allows people this very binary look at slavery.

At race. Yeah. Good whites and bad whites. Exactly. And so it's like, well, it allows for a viewer to say, like— I'm a good white. Well, yeah, because I don't—I would never have slaves. I would never burn a cross on somebody's lawn. Yeah. That's what racism looks like, and I'm not racist. Yeah. And so if you were to sort of, like, make it a little bit more subtle in the things that we deal with, like asking a black person over and over to write about just sort of, like, the violence inflicted upon black people—

That's sort of like maybe a little too close to home. So it's more difficult to consume those kinds of stories. Oh, yeah. And this happens to me in some instances. People don't want to engage with work that implicates them as players in a system. Mm-hmm.

And what I like about your film is that it's doing that. Every white person in that movie, every white person in the publishing industry in that film, you know that they are part of the system and they are part of the problem. But what's so crazy about it, I have seen this movie twice now, once at a Producers Guild screening and then at your premiere this week.

And at the moments in which those white liberal characters were a part of the problem, the moments in which they are skewered, the loudest laughter in the room is from the white liberals. Yeah. How do you...

I don't know. I don't know how to feel about it. I really don't. But like when I watched it at the premiere, I was like the scene with the marketers trying to figure out the marketing campaign and just the most beautifully unhinged performance by those two actors in that scene. Miriam Shore and Michael Cirocate. I mean, chefs kissed their notes. They're amazing. But they're performing bad white liberal. And it's funny. Yeah. But then the white liberals in the room were like, oh!

I still don't know how to make sense of it. You've seen it. What do you think in that moment? Here's what I say. I think two things, right? The first is that I always hesitate to...

to ascribe any real emotion to laughter, right? Because sometimes I laugh when I feel nervous. There you go. Right? Sometimes I laugh when I feel uncomfortable. Yeah. Because I don't know what else to do. Yeah. And so I laugh. Yeah. And, you know, that used to be a big problem in my childhood because my parents would be scolding me and I would be laughing right in their face and it would...

Nothing would make them angrier than just me standing there laughing at them while they're angry with me. And so I think that that is something that I think about a lot is sort of what laughter is because I find this funny and what laughter is this because... I feel really nervous right now. Yeah, this makes me feel uncomfortable because I feel like I'm looking at myself. This movie called me a Karen. Yeah, exactly. And secondly, the second thing I would say is that I've had people...

acknowledge this directly. You know, we showed the film at SCAD in Georgia, the Savannah College of Art and Design. You were there with Zach, right? Yes, exactly. Zach was there. That's where Zach saw the film. And so we had the screening there and I had to leave the next day. But the next day, the costume designer for my film, Rudy Mance, was walking around and he said that this

Older white woman came up to him and said, I saw your film last night. And he was like, oh, God, this is an older white woman in Georgia. I wonder what she's feeling about this. And she said about halfway through, like I was laughing so hard. And about halfway through, I realized that I was laughing at myself. I was laughing at me up there. And she said, and it felt so good.

Damn. And I think that what it is is that this was a movie that I didn't want to make for people just in New York and L.A. Yeah. I think one of the reasons why we're so incredibly polarized now these days is that we find it hard to sort of engage with anybody who thinks outside of us. And that's partially because of our own unwillingness to meet in the middle. But it's also partially because by design, right? Like now...

Fox News isn't conservative enough for the conservatives. Now there's Newsmax and OAN. And everybody's kind of like ensconced in their own bubble and listening to their own news and reading their own facts and watching their own shows and movies and listening to their own music. And it's kind of like never the twain shall meet. And so when I sat down to make this, I wanted to make something that felt like, you know what? This is for everybody. And everybody can come in and sort of, if you see yourself...

and you laugh a little bit and it makes you cringe a little bit, that's okay. You're going to survive that and you'll sort of like might learn something on the other side of that. I had another white woman come up to me in New York after a screening and she said, that was very, very uncomfortable for me to watch. Oh, welcome. She said, yeah, she said that was very painful, but she said, I'm happy that I did that because I feel like I learned something. And so I think that maybe the feeling that I'm getting is like, I feel like I've been on guard for 20 years. You know, I feel like I've been on alert for 20 years. And I think that

I'm just like, man, I'm ready to just relax a little bit and exhale. I think that a lot of people are feeling that. I'm just like, oh God, we've been looking at these issues in such a self-serious, intense way for so long. It's nice to just actually say like, oh, we can laugh at this a little bit. We can laugh at ourselves. Yeah. And that's where the growth happens. Exactly. I think for so long,

People on both sides, all sides of whatever issue thought that they could shame people into thinking their way or embarrass people into doing the right thing or make you feel guilty enough or bad enough and cry enough to just do right. Exactly. That didn't work. Exactly. And what if the space where we can grow the most is in spaces like these where the laughter is.

operates as kind of a pressure release valve. - Exactly. - And it's then you can maybe even think more clearly. - Exactly. - I think so much of the pressure of just news coverage in the last 10 to 15 years, the internet era, has been make 'em sad, make 'em angry, make 'em feel guilty. - Exactly. - And that's all we know how to do, and that's how we think progress happens on issues like race or gender or sexuality or whatever.

That's not working. No. Like, what if the way to have any movement is to, like, actually tap into some different emotions? Like laughter, like humor, you know? And not only is it not working, it is actively being exploited by...

the people in power. So it's actively being exploited, especially by politicians. The thing that we have to recognize is that the politicians are not coming to save us. The politicians are not coming to mend the divisions. In fact, they're going to exploit those divisions as long as possible. So I feel like it's up to the people who make art, the people who make culture to sort of like remind us that actually we need to mend these issues or else we're really in a lot of trouble. And I think that

The cavalry's not coming, and so it's up to us. There you go. Listen, Saeed always says, no one will save you but you. Yeah. But you can. Exactly. But you can. Exactly. All right, listeners, we're going to take a quick break right here, but do not go anywhere. More of Cora Jefferson just after this break. We'll be right back.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture.

And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's change leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, we're back. Jumping right back into Cord Jefferson, director and writer of the critically acclaimed film American Fiction. Let's talk about the book that your film is based on. Describe it to our listeners.

The book is called Erasure by an author named Percival Everett. It was published in 2001. And I had never heard of it until I was reading this book review for a novel called Interior Chinatown. And it said that the novel had a satire reminiscent of Percival Everett's Erasure. So just one line in a review of another book. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I wonder what this is. And so I went and read a synopsis of Erasure and I thought, oh, this is...

Sounds like it's up my alley as far as the themes, and I bought it. I'm normally a very slow reader. I sort of take forever, but...

Mm-hmm.

But then there was, you know, three siblings in the book and I have two older brothers and we have sort of our own weird sibling dynamic where sometimes we're closer, sometimes we're farther apart, ups and downs. You know, the book has a very overbearing father figure. We have a very overbearing father figure who I love very much, but who is overbearing and will be with us even after he's gone in that way. There's an ailing mother in the story and my mother, I moved home for a period of time to take care of my mother toward the end of her life. So there was just all these overlaps

in a way that started to feel almost eerie as I read. It just felt like it spoke to me deeper than any piece of art had spoken to me before or since. And so it just felt like, yeah, this is the one that I felt like

because I knew nothing about directing. I'd never directed anything before this, but I felt like I knew the story in these characters on such a fundamental level that I felt like even if I don't know anything about lenses or lighting, I have the story in these characters that I know so deeply, and they will guide my decisions for everything else that I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. When you go to Percival and you're like...

I think I want to make your book a movie. What does he say? He asked to talk to me on the phone. Okay. And did you go to him or was it, you know, it was like the reps and this and that? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The reps went because I had heard that Percival had said no in the past to people wanting to adapt his work. Yeah. So I was like, it's like approaching a deer in the forest. Like I didn't want to do anything to upset him. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I didn't want to do anything to startle him and make him run away. So I went through the

I went through all the appropriate channels. I went through his reps, and then he asked to speak to me on the phone. And we talked for about a half an hour. He asked me why I was passionate about it. He asked me what I liked about the book. He asked me my vision for the movie. Sounds intimidating. It was very intimidating. You know, I didn't know how it went. And then I found out later that day he offered to give me the rights for free to the novel. That is—let's just point out to listeners—

That never happens. Ever. Ever. Like rights conversations can become months and months, if not years of sort of like back and forth. And people will pay thousands a year just to sit on rights. Exactly. Like that's how valuable they are. So to get it for free, what do you think led him to give it to you for free? Well, to be clear, he gave it to me for free for six months. And he said, write a script. And if you sell the script, you can pay me back after you sell the script.

And so that's what we did. Did you write the script in six months or less? I wrote the script in four months. Wow. But that's slow.

That's slow, man. I'm a slow writer just as a way I'm a slow reader. I don't think I could write a movie script in four months. Really? I think you could. It's 16 weeks. A movie script is like 80 pages. So it's like five pages a week, right? Okay. You could write five pages. Have you seen me work? That's the reason I talk for a little bit. Because I ain't writing shit. Anywho. I think that the reason he gave me

that time to work on it was because he could sense how passionate I was about it. I love Percival. He and I have become good friends over the course of making this. And I've never met somebody who gives less of a shit about stuff than Percival, truly. Like Percival does not care about money. He doesn't care about fame. In fact, sort of like rejects fame as much as possible. He avoids doing press. He doesn't like to do interviews.

all he cares about is the work and just sort of like making good work and putting good work into the world. And so I think he could just sense that I wasn't there to make money. I wasn't there because I was like, this is going to make us rich. You know, I was there because I was like, I found something that I was just deeply passionate about. And he, I think he sensed that passion. Yeah. Yeah. So you get the rights, you write the script.

And then you have to become a film director. How did you teach yourself? The first person who ever planted the idea of being a director in my head was Aziz Ansari. I was working, I was writing on season two of Master of None. Who was at the premiere? Yeah, he was there. Yeah. He's been a big supporter the whole way, but

I was working on Master of None in 2016. What season did you write on? Season two and season three, actually. Pasta season. Yeah, exactly. Gosh, it was perfect. Italy, yeah. We went to Italy for that, for the part of the writer's room. It was unbelievable. I think about that season a lot. Thank you. It was really good. Thank you. It was great, and he was directing a lot of it. And so we were chatting about him directing. He said, have you ever thought about directing? And I said, you know, I've never been to film school. I know nothing about cameras or anything.

lighting or anything. And he was like, I went to NYU for business. And he said, and last year I was nominated for a Golden Globe for direct. He said, all you really need to direct is you need to have a vision. You need to be able to articulate that vision to the people around you, but then you can hire a great team to collaborate with you and who do know about cameras and who do know about lights. Like these are things that you can do once you have a staff. And so,

That implanted the idea. And then when I found this book, I thought, okay, here's the thing that I really feel comfortable with story-wise, as I just said. And so it was really about amassing this great team around me to really help support me. And so the thing that I told everybody from Jeffrey Wright on down to the cinematographer, to the production designers, I said, listen, I've never done this before.

And so there are going to be things that I don't know, you know, that is going to happen. And I would say, I know it's hard to be a cinematographer. I know that's a difficult job. And especially on a film set without a lot of money, especially on a film set without a lot of time, these would become incredibly difficult roles.

And so if you don't want to do this, if you don't want to be a cinematographer or a production designer and then also sometimes serve as a substitute teacher and hold my hand and let me know what I'm doing wrong, I do not begrudge you walking away from this job. Because if you're just like, I don't want to do both those things, I get it. And so everybody who signed on,

just was very, very, very gracious with their time and gracious with me. And I felt very protected by them, and I hope that they felt protected by me. And so it fostered an environment in which it allowed me to learn how to be a director on the job. That's pretty cool. Yeah, the thing that I say is that people pay lip service to...

bringing in marginalized voices. But to bring in marginalized voices, by definition, you have to take a risk. There you go. The reason that they're marginalized is because they haven't been given an opportunity to show their talents. And so you have to say like, I know you haven't been given an opportunity, but I'm going to take a risk on you and sort of see what happens. And that is what happened with everybody on that set. They all took a risk. They said, okay, you've never done this before, but I see something in you and let's give it a go. Yeah. Well, and the thing is, that's not special treatment.

That's the treatment Chad gets all the time. Exactly. Because Chad reminds the execs of their sons. Exactly. Or them as young kids. Exactly. And I see it all the time. Chad gets chance after chance. Exactly. And what I hate is that when someone from a marginalized background gets that chance, gets that support, other folks are mad. Yeah.

and jealous. At us? Yeah, exactly. At us? I'd never get it. I'd never get it. Look at all these Netbo babies. Summer internships are. Yes, exactly. That's what this is. It's people taking a risk on people who have not done this before. Yes.

All I want is to be treated like a nepo baby for once in my life. And that is reparations. Exactly. Damn it. That's all I want. Yeah. And on the job training is important. That's something we've forgotten about too is like, well, you need experience. And it's like, well, how are you going to get experience? You know, you need to let people in. And let them try it. Exactly. Well, and I mean, this is another conversation, but as the...

network TV industrial complex dies, we have less of that structure to train people on the job. Exactly. When there were ABC, CBS, NBC, must-see TV in the 90s, you could start at a show and work your way up from assistant and learn how to run a show. Exactly. And now, in this world of streaming, and who knows how many episodes you get or how much money you get or how big your room will be,

It's really hard to offer that to anyone young and up and coming. Exactly. And that was one of the issues that was very relevant in the writer's strike was that

the younger writers were not getting time to go to set. Because as soon as the scripts were done, they would say, see you later. Good luck. Getting time on set is so crucial to understanding actually how film and television is made. And how your words are used. Exactly. And sort of like what goes into an actual production and sort of like writing in an effort to sort of like keep the budget low. Like all of that stuff you learn being on set. And a lot of times,

a lot of younger writers, many of whom happen to be queer and black and brown people, were not being given the opportunity to be on set. While being paid less than they should have been paid because the margins are lower now. Exactly. And then they were like, well, we don't want to pay you to be on set, so we cut you. And so they are not getting the on-the-job training that they need to succeed beyond their present station. Yeah. I want to talk about a scene in the movie where

Okay.

They have the most non-confrontational face-off over the merits of high culture black literature and low culture black literature. This is a scene that was not in the book, right? Yeah, no, it wasn't. When I was reading the novel, I was excited for this scene when it was going to arrive, but it doesn't arrive. And so I knew I had to put it in the script when I sat down to write. Yeah, and it's basically...

who is, let's say it, an elitist when it comes to literature. He's pushing back against Issa Rae's character for writing low culture black stuff.

They both present their arguments. They're both compelling. But the scene ends. I didn't know who to agree with. Yeah. That's the point. By design. The last page of Erasure has a quote in Latin that I was unfamiliar with when I read it. But apparently it's used in relation to complex mathematical equations. And the rough translation is, I offer no hypothesis. And so to me,

What that meant was that, you know, Percival was not trying to make something that was didactic. He didn't want to make something that spoon-fed morality. And so when I sat down to make the movie, I knew that it wasn't, it couldn't be a persuasive essay. It's not an op-ed column, right? The sort of goal was to put forth a series of scenarios and characters and allow people to make their own decisions about who they agree with. And so that is sort of mostly encapsulated in that scene, right? I think that that is sort of really where that

theme comes to a head and it was important to me because I think that the thing that Jeffrey and I said before we started making the movie that we fully agreed on was we didn't want to police blackness we didn't want this to be a respectability politics movie pull up your pants and be good in front of the white people we didn't want this to police art and we didn't want this to police black art

And so, to me, it was very important to not have a villain, you know, to not say that, you know, somebody writing this kind of book is doing something bad. That's sort of like they are wrong for doing this. It is far more interesting to think about somebody writing this kind of novel and then think about why they might do that. Yeah.

The financial pressures. Yeah, the financial pressures, the desire to be successful. You know, the creative industries are hard. Creative industries are hard. And they're not that creative. Exactly. Usually, these executives know exactly what they want, and it's a certain kind of thing. Exactly. And if you want to sustain a career, you at least have to do some of that.

Exactly. And so I think that to me, it was important to talk about those realities. Some of that conversation is taken directly from my personal life where a real growth period for me was that there used to be a part of me that looked at other artists and I was like, your art is bad. The work that you make is bad. And I find that frustrating. We've all had that phase of our career, just black creatives, where we think Tyler Perry is the devil. Yeah.

We have all been there. And I felt like the work that you are making is bad and I don't like it. And it's annoying to me that you're successful. And why isn't the stuff that I'm making more successful and yada, yada, yada. And a real growth period in my life was when I realized finally that the people whose work I used to say was bad, people whose work I used to resent were

Those people are operating within a system and within institutions that were established generations before any of us were around. And so they are coming at it from a different place than I am. But that doesn't mean that they're making work that is bad. It doesn't mean that they're making work that is not something that they've worked hard on, something that they have been thoughtful about. It's just...

They are working within this institution, within this system in a way that's different from the way that I'm working within the system. And so far be it for me to criticize another artist. The far more important question, and this is this, I think this applies to everything. This doesn't just apply to creative institutions.

Every time that you find yourself getting angry at an individual actor on the ground, always think of the people 15 layers above them who actually have power and actually have purse strings. In this institution, it's less like, why is this person making this art? And the better question is,

Why are the people who have their hands on the till, why are they so interested in buying the same art over and over and over and over? Why are they interested in perpetuating these narratives constantly? Not why are people making work that fulfills that need. Why are people creating this need in the first place? Yeah. Well, and can we have a larger definition of good? Exactly. Something can be good...

And not be revered by a handful of critics who live in New York and L.A. Exactly. Something can be good for different reasons than critical acclaim. Exactly. What if the best thing Tyler Perry is doing right now is employing a shit ton of black people. Exactly. And training them in this industry and allowing them to grow and blossom elsewhere in this industry. Exactly. Isn't that good? Exactly. Isn't that good? Yeah. You know, and I think that what we're asking for is.

Is the diversity of possibility for black people that exists for white people. Yeah, absolutely. There are white filmmakers and TV makers who make highbrow shit and lowbrow shit. Exactly. And no one ever takes one piece of their work and holds it up as a referendum or a judgment on their entire race. Exactly. No one's going to look at Killers of the Flower Moon

And say, well, this says all you need to know about every white film director who's ever lived. Exactly. It's not going to happen. Yeah. In the same way that I'm not going to take a Michael Bay movie and be like, well, white directors only make bad films with explosions at the end. Exactly. That's not true. Exactly. And so it's like, also, not all Michael Bay films are bad. Some are great. The Rock is a masterpiece. Yes. The Rock is a masterpiece. Yes. Yes. But it's like that freedom of movement. Yeah.

I think is what I want for creatives of color, queer creatives, women creatives, et cetera. Absolutely. I think especially in a country in which people are actively trying to erase slavery and civil rights stories and stories about the sort of racist foundations of this country, we have a governor saying that slavery taught people skills, useful skills, like that is what's going on. And I think that, so some of those stories are more important than ever. That being said,

it's like why are these stories being told to the exclusion of every other story to the exclusion of the millions of you know yes slavery is something that happened in the united states it is a part of black history it's part of white history as well but it's also part of black history but so is being president of the united states there you go you know and between those two polls there is millions of other stories you can tell between slave and president

There's a lot of other lives out there. And so let's just sort of get into the depth and complexity and nuance of black life the way that we get into the depth and complexity of nuance of white life. Oh, yeah. And I find a lot. And I think people don't even realize this until you talk to them about it. What's really happening here when we exist in these systems and structures that you've just spoken of, it allows viewers, listeners to believe and think that

that black people actually have fewer emotions than white people. It allows them to think that the only modes in which black people exist are trauma, pain, and sadness. Yeah.

Absolutely. That's not true. I have fun. Yeah, exactly. I go party. Yeah. I watch shit TV. Yeah. Your lives can be messy sometimes too. It's not like either crackhead or judge, you know, the way that we often see. It's like you can be judge and be messy. You know, you can be everything. And I think that that to me is very, very important to recognize. You know, that is one of the

One of the things that I wanted to reflect in the movie was the diversity within diversity. The idea that putting one black person in a room or one queer person in the room does not give you the black perspective. Especially when they're perfect. Yeah, exactly. The current trope now is like the perfect black therapist. Exactly. Have you noticed this? No, I haven't. Wait a minute. The perfect black therapist?

Yes. Actually, yes. The perfect black therapist. I have noticed this. I was going to say no, but I have seen that in a couple things. Yeah. Yeah. The same way that there was like black police officers, perfect black judges. It was like this idea of like, well, this is the upstanding black citizen so that we can get away with having sort of like the black...

mugger. You know, we'll also have a black judge in the same movie. It is just like the polls. It's like a black mugger and a black judge. So it's like, look, we showed a good black guy. So we can get away with having a black mugger. Yes, totally. Totally. Okay, one more break when we come back more with Cora Jefferson on American Fiction and a lot more.

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All in one place. Find your perfect somewhere with Hotels.com. All right, we're back. Let's get right into it. I keep thinking about white liberal reaction to this film. In the book and in the movie, the main character, Monk, is black, man. He has to make a version of black or he's pressured to make a version of black that is palatable to an industry still mostly controlled by white people. And he does this to the extreme.

You wanted to make a black movie and you did and you made exactly what you wanted to make. But I'm sure you heard that pressure telling you to maybe think about making this as palatable as it possibly can be for the executives or the Academy voters or the whatever. How do you think about that voice? If it ever rears its head or does it? Maybe it doesn't. No, no. Here's the thing. This book and this film.

This was the first thing that I'd ever done in this industry purely out of passion. Every other thing that I'd done is because it's like a writing assignment. You know, we were looking for a movie about sharks or something, you know, or somebody coming and saying, we got the rights to this novel. Would you want to take on and sort of like see if you can come up with something around this work? Yeah. Yeah.

This was the first thing ever that I wrote just because I found something that I said, you know what? I love this. There's no money in it for me. You know, I was just writing it on spec, which means that there was no necessarily market for it. It's just like you sit down and write a script and see if somebody likes it. And that's what I was doing. It was just purely like, I love this and I want to see it in the world. And that's all I did. And so this was the first time that I didn't think about how people were going to react. This is the first time that I didn't think about it.

if this is going to offend people. This is the first time I didn't think about, is this what the market is looking for? It was the thing that I just said, I'm doing this because I love this. And I think that hopefully there's somebody out there who will love it as much as I do. I love that. And the thing is, is that 98% of the people rejected me. I'd always known that Hollywood was a risk averse place. I didn't know how risk averse until I took this out. I would sit in rooms with people. This happened more than once who would literally say,

This is one of the greatest scripts I've read in years. I love this. Oh my God. And Jeffrey Wright's attached to it. I love it. Amazing. That's fantastic. Oh, and what's your vision for it? Oh, that sounds great. Oh, that's yeah. Jazz score. This is, oh, this is, oh God, wonderful. They were just so complimentary of the creative. And then when we would leave those meetings, you know, and wait for them to say like, well, here's our offer.

It was crickets. Crickets. Nothing. Nothing. It was so much effusive praise. And yet when it actually came to, you know, like, let's make this thing then. It was just kind of like, we're out. We can't do it. Yeah. And it's like, I thought you said it was amazing. I thought you said the script was amazing. You said the script is one of the best you've read in years. Yeah. And I was just like, yeah, but you know. And these are people...

who are regularly making $150 million movies. So they got money to spend. Movies with 20 times the budget of my film. Movies that a lot of which fail and don't end up earning the money they need to earn. And I'm asking for a fraction of a fraction of what these movies cost. And it's just they don't want to take the risk. And so that to me was when I really saw how risk-averse this industry was. It's like you can have great creative people

You can have a great actor. I have no idea if it was because they thought that I was an unknown quantity as a director. I have no idea if they thought the material was risky. They thought the actors were not bankable. I have no idea why, but I just know that 98% of the people who came across the material told me they loved it, but...

Not for them. They couldn't make it. Well, take that, haters. Look at them now. I was very... Well, here's the thing. The place where we finally got distribution... We got two offers for distribution. One of which was from Orion. Okay. And then one of which was from a company that I won't name, but their offer was millions of dollars less than the production budget on the film. And so essentially we got one offer. Yeah. And Orion is headed up by a black woman named Alana Mayo. I saw her at the premiere. Yeah. There she was. Yeah. And I think that, you know, that is...

Not necessarily sort of correlation does not equal causation. But a lot of times it does. But a lot of times it does. And I will say that, you know, the one place that actually made an offer, a real offer on the film was headed up by a black woman. There you go. Again, going back to that, you need to take a risk in order to bring in marginalized voices. Yep. This is who took the risk. I had been a producer for years at NPR and I wanted to be on the air. And every now and then they give me a little crumb here and there.

The person who made it happen for me and said, just go report Vicki Walton James, a black woman, I think still at NPR. It was her. Yeah. And it's like she was not seeing anything else than the other folks were saying. She just wanted to take a chance. Yeah. You know, so forever grateful to these folks. Exactly. Shout out. Exactly. Alana Mayo is one of my heroes forever. Truly. I love it. Yeah. Monk, the lead of this film, Jeffrey Wright's character. Yeah.

begrudgingly becomes a part of a machine that he doesn't like. How would Monk handle an Oscar campaign season?

He wouldn't do it. He wouldn't do it. Okay. He would say absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think that Monk is, or he might try to do it and then he'd offend somebody immediately and the, and the,

And the distributors would be like, you know what? Yeah, we're going to let the actors come out and do their thing. Maybe you should stay away from the campaign trail. He would just probably be very annoyed and he would just be like, well, I want to go write a book now. I mean, I think that that is one of the reasons why I love Percival is like there was nobody who got out of that premiere party faster than Percival Everett. It was like... He was there? Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Because I was looking for everybody. Exactly. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Percival was there. He had a baseball cap on. After the premiere, I came up to him and I hugged him and I said, man, I really love you. Like, you're such a close friend and mentor and, like, you've changed my life by letting me adapt this book. And he said, thank you, buddy. He said, I love you, too. I'm really proud. And then he left. Wow. Wow. It was amazing. It's amazing. And I think that, like, that's why...

He is, to me, forever a mentor and hero of mine. And I think that one of the reasons that I love him is just like he's not there for the bullshit. He's there for like... He's like, I want to make art. I want to be around it. But, you know, the parties and stuff is not for me. He's married to an equally brilliant novelist named Danzi Senna. Oh, yeah. I interviewed Danzi Senna years ago. She's so...

She's amazing. She's great. She's brilliant. And gracious with her time. Oh, my God. Yeah. And they're such a wonderful couple. Like, they're hilarious together. And Danzy tells me that she told me that, like, they'll have dinner parties and, like, come 830, it'll just be like, everybody will notice that Percival's just gone. Yeah.

He's just like, first of all, he's like, yeah, it was great, great. And then it's just like, yeah, he's in his office now writing again or like painting because he's also an abstract artist or he's composing music. He's like, he's amazing. But that's one of the things that I love about him is he's just like, yeah, not for me. I just want to go make art. Yeah. Danzy's book is called New People. New People. I loved it.

what lessons from Monk and from Percival Everett and the way they interact with the machine or not will you take into your awards campaign season? Because you're at the start of it. You're going to be

Doing the thing for the next few months. Yeah. What bits of Monk and Percival will you try to channel as you have to navigate this beast? Campaign season's a beast. Yeah, I think just staying true to myself. Yeah. Another growth period that I've had in my journey is that thinking like...

Screw awards. Who cares? Like, this is not why we do the work and feeling like sort of like arrogant about it. And like, none of this matters. But awards are longevity. Awards are money. Exactly. The next work. Exactly. And awards also sort of get you recognized for the work that you're being nominated for. Right. Like this is a small movie. This is like the little movie that could, you know, our budgets compared to the movies that we're in conversation with. We are the little guy. Yeah. And so that is important to me. It's important to me that this work is shown as far and wide as it can be shown because it's,

Because there's a lot of people who worked really, really hard on it, you know? And I want their work to be celebrated. I want people to acknowledge them. I had a great team. There's great actors. Like, I want these people to be recognized. And awards help do that. That being said, I want to make sure that I'm not doing anything that feels...

Like I'm forcing myself to change or manipulate myself or lie or just be inauthentic because I've worked really hard. There's a lot of me and Monk and Cliff in the film in that I think the movie is a lot about the freedom to be yourself and what happens when you feel limited in that freedom. It's sort of like the ways that people behave when they don't feel free to be themselves. And that comes from a sort of like real place for me where I just felt...

I just felt like I'd built up this facade for a very long time and like I started to really deal with it about five years ago. And so I think that I really empathize with those guys and what they're going through. And I've worked really hard to be authentic and to be honest and to be open and open-hearted and open-minded in my life.

And so that's something that I want to try to navigate this as best as possible without being inauthentic and sort of like remaining true to my values and remaining true to who I am as a human being. So I think that that's the thing that I'm going to try to take away from those guys is just their commitment to life.

Being themselves. Yeah. I'm just a dude from Tucson, Arizona. I don't ever want to forget that. There you go. We did it. Thank you so much. Court, I am, you know, forever a fan. Also happy to be your friend. Watching you navigate not just one treacherous industry, but another, you know, going from journalism to film and TV too and crushing it. Just...

I'm proud of you, man. Thank you so much. And I will say to you that I think that you serve as an inspiration for me and other people in that watching you sort of like make your career what you want it to be. I appreciate that. There was guys like you when I was working in journalism who,

Because I was never like really inside the institutions, you know? Be glad. No, but I was like, I had my own success, but like I was never like in the New Yorker or the New York Times or NPR, these kinds of like mainstay, award-winning, highly respected institutions. You know, I loved working at Gawker, but it was not that. And so I think that the more that I've heard from people who were in those institutions...

who were like, well, I don't necessarily love it here, but I'm in this award-winning sort of major foundational institution. And so why would I leave? I think that I look at people like you who said, you know what, I want something different and I'm going to sort of like risk leaving this sure thing in order to strike out on my own and sort of like see what I can do in the world.

is truly inspiring. And so, you know, I'm very happy for you. I love Said. I love Zach and I love you. And I'm very happy for you guys. I love it. This was delightful. Thank you for having me. Oh my God. Thanks for coming on. I cannot wait to see the continued upward trajectory of all this stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Listeners, thank you so much for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show, and I hope you do, support us by following this show on your favorite podcast listening platform. Follow it, like hitting that button to follow. And also tell a friend, IRL, about the show. Huge thank you to the team that makes this whole thing possible. Our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer, Sam Kiefer, and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design.

Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you reading the book Erasure? Have you watched the film American Fiction? How's your vibe? Let us know all these things. Email us whenever you want. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. Also, stay in touch on Instagram at Sam Sanders, at Zach Staff. The Zach has an H.

And at The Ferocity. If you post about Vibe Check, use the hashtag VibeCheckPod. And stay tuned for our regular episode this Wednesday. Okay, bye. Stitcher. What kind of day is it? It's a White Claw Day.

There are a lot of reasons some people choose cannabis.

Whether you're tapping into your creative side or just trying to relax, the one thing weed won't do is make it any more safe or legal to drive afterwards. It can slow reaction times, for example, and if you thought a few eye drops helped you get away with it, know that people can tell when you've been smoking marijuana, including law enforcement. If you feel different, you drive different. Drive high. Get a DUI.