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If you want to check out some pictures from our investigation in Montana, I've posted some on my Instagram. So if you're curious and you want to check it out, my Instagram is at painlindsay, just my name. I've posted some pictures from Browning, a lot of the sites that I've mentioned in the podcast, but it's there if you want to check it out. Again, it's at painlindsay on Instagram. Thanks, guys. Enjoy the episode.
Hey, Payne. This is Katie. T is so confusing to me. I'm finding it really hard to keep up with all of the tales. And I'm a little bit confused as to whether she and Paul were married at the time that she found out that he and Ashley were dating. Were they still in a relationship when she found out about Paul and Ashley? Thanks so much for all the work you're doing.
Okay, so back when Ashley went missing, Paul and T were together. They were married. They also had a kid together. So whenever T found out that Paul was potentially dating Ashley in some sort of way, they were together at that time. Hey, Payne. This is Kelly from Michigan. My question for you is regarding Sam McDonald. It doesn't really make sense to me
is the fact that he said he fell asleep and then Ashley was gone. Like, he didn't mean to fall asleep or it's not clear. But then at the next minute, he said that she, Ashley, was supposed to wake him up before she left. I don't know. It just seems weird. Like, was he supposed to fall asleep or was he intending to or still
The only reason I say this is because you pointed out that he suddenly just fell asleep when he had claimed in the past he stayed up for days. So I don't know. It just was weird because was it just he fell asleep by accident or was he supposed to or intended to? But I don't know. Just seemed fishy to me. Anyway, good job. Very interesting story. Thanks.
I don't think Sam was like, "Okay, I'm going to sleep now." I mean, if you stayed up for days doing meth, I think eventually at some point you crash. I think it was just weird and unfortunate for Sam in that particular incident that he fell asleep in that moment because it will forever be suspicious until we find Ashley. But my personal opinion here is that I think Ashley did leave from the divide where Sam was.
And if that is the case, then that means that Sam likely did not harm or kill Ashley. Hello, my name is Ashley. I am calling from Eugene, Oregon. I just had a question about this interview with T. The whole situation with her and Wendy, what does Wendy have to gain by having said, well, T came and bought this rifle from me?
Initially, I noticed when you had asked T about it that she kind of denied even actually like knowing or speaking to Wendy and then the story kind of changed. I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on why that behavior would present itself that way. Why do you think that she was hesitant to admit that she knew Wendy or is it possibly because this is from a couple years ago? I don't know. I just...
I found that kind of intriguing and I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. So thank you so much.
I don't think Wendy has anything to gain by making that stuff up. I mean, maybe they don't like each other, but that would be the only reason. Yeah, I mean, I found it very strange whenever I mentioned Wendy to T. And at first, it seemed like she didn't know who she was. And then she slowly kind of remembered or whatever it was, all the details of that particular incident.
I don't know. I mean, there was clearly a level of preservation there. Is it because she's just nervous and she knows that it doesn't make her look good? Or is it because she's hiding something bigger than that? I really don't know. And I think that's the most confusing and frustrating part of my interview with T is stuff just like that.
Hey, Payne. This is Tiani from Connecticut. My question is, at the end of episode nine, where you ask T to call her friend, I guess to verify her whereabouts, do you feel that that was a genuine—rather, not genuine, but an honest alibi?
I asked because I got the impression that her friend was waiting for that phone call. She knew that you were going to have a conversation with her, obviously. And probably she knew if he is as smart as she thinks she is, she probably knew that you were going to end the conversation with, oh, why don't we just call your friend to verify? I'm very curious to, you know, know how you feel about it.
You'll get to hear the full call next week. My first impression is that it wasn't really planned. I mean, sure, she could have given her friend a heads up saying, "Hey, I'm gonna be part of this podcast about Ashley's disappearance, and me being with you is part of my alibi. Please be prepared to talk to this person," or whatever. Sure. But I didn't get the impression that she was there waiting for me.
And you'll see whenever you hear the call, it didn't seem like she was just waiting by the phone. But then again, who knows? Hey Payne, this is Michael. So my question is, if he did get dropped off in Seattle on the 10th, is it possible that Paul could make it back to the pickup point in that amount of time? I don't remember if you said it in the early episodes or not, but yeah, that's just my question.
So I just pulled it up on Google Maps. It says the drive from Seattle, Washington to Shelby, Montana, which is where the divide is, is 10 hours and 42 minutes. So presumably if Paul left during the daytime on Saturday the 10th, he could easily be there by, let's say, 10 or 11 in the morning the next day. And who knows what he was even saying to Ashley or how urgently he was supposed to be picking her up.
And if he was in some sort of relationship with her, wouldn't surprise me if he would drive 10 hours straight to go pick her up. So is it possible? 100% absolutely.
Hi, my name is Stephanie Fuentes and my question is, will you be taking this to the police once you're gathering all the information that you have? Are you even giving this type of information for the police to go check out as far as police cooperating the story for the investigation?
I mean, if the police wants the information, they can listen to the podcast. Not to get too much into it, but my team and I have made, at this point, dozens of calls to the local police there, and they literally will not call us back. So I don't know if that's because they're understaffed, if they're just annoyed that we're even doing this at all. Yeah, I mean, I have nothing to hand deliver to them
You know, 90% of the information I have besides just a few things are in this podcast. And obviously, if I found the smoking gun here, I would contact either the FBI and or local law enforcement. But man, if I called local law enforcement with the smoking gun, no guarantees they'd even call me back anyways.
Hello, my name is Samantha Reed. First, I would just like to say that I'm really enjoying your episodes of Up and Vanish about Ashley Loring. I grew up on the reservation. I currently live in California. My question is, are you scared? Aren't you scared going around the reservation and interviewing all these people, going around and asking these random people that you don't know these questions about?
after everything that's been going around on the reservation. Thank you for the time listening to my question, and thank you also for shining light on Ashley's story, and I hope we find her. I get asked that question a lot. I mean, sometimes, yes, but honestly, only a small sliver.
Hi, Payne. This is Janet calling from Pearl, Mississippi. I do have a question that's been, just keeps bouncing back and forth every time I listen to something in season three. Sam and the letters. Did those seem staged to you? Because it came off as being very staged when you went back for the second, if I'm remembering it correctly, the second visit. Like he had them just prepared. Like it just didn't, it didn't come off as staged.
being genuine and authentic. Wondering what your thoughts are on that? To me, Sam's notes were 100% genuine. He actually briefly mentioned it the first time I met him, but I wasn't recording at that moment. So I knew about these notes or the possibility of there being these notes that he wrote down. And then before I left the second time, I brought it up again and you could tell he was kind of dancing around it
He said his daughter had them and they weren't there. And then eventually he was like, okay, I'll show them to you. And honestly, they weren't really that much different than what he had told me in person. I think there was a few more intimate details about how he maybe felt about Ashley and that kind of thing. But to me, those notes were real. I think that at the time of Ashley's disappearance, Sam was pretty messed up on drugs and he realized that he needed to write some of this stuff down
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Hi, Payne. I had a question about the cabin that kept being mentioned about actually possibly being interested in. It just seemed like that was a weird detail that kept being mentioned. And I was curious if anyone ever looked into the cabin, looked into who owned it, who frequented it. That would be great. That's the one thing that keeps coming to my mind. So thank you.
I don't think there's really any significance to the cabin itself. I think it's just one of the things that Sam remembers last when he was with Ashley, that she mentioned this cabin way off in the distance. And I don't think it's actually a house. It's just a small little structure. I don't think anyone lives there. It seems damn near impossible to get to. I don't think Ashley walked up there. That area was searched.
I think it was just one of the things that he remembered her saying before he fell asleep and she went missing.
Hi, pain. Hi, Up and Vanished crew. My name is Katie. I'm a listener from Canada. I just finished the most recent episode. And when he was giving pain directions, I was screaming, don't go, don't go. So my question is, pain, were you at all nervous about just following some person's directions and not really knowing where you were going? Thanks. Keep up the good work.
Yeah, T pulled a audible on me and I was like, oh my goodness, what are we doing right now? Yeah, I've probably been sitting there in the casino parking lot for about 30, 45 minutes. And I was like, all right, here we go. She's gonna bail on me. And then she texted me that she wanted to meet somewhere else, but she wouldn't give me the address.
I was like, okay, well, I mean, obviously, if I start pulling up to something that looks super sketchy, I'm just going to turn right back around. But she ultimately led me to this park that was out in the open. So once I really got there, I felt a little more comfortable.
Guys, what's up? How's it going? Loving the new season. My name's Ryan from Philly. I guess where I'm a little confused is T keeps making excuses for not being able to remember some things because of how high she was at the time or how messed up she was on drugs. But then the things that she does seem to remember, she seems to remember very well. So everything that seems to...
keep her away from this crime or everything that she's recalling about this crime. Why are we taking these things seriously if she very well could have been high at the time? And if she was high, she very much could have been involved and just doesn't quite remember it. I'm just curious your thoughts on that and if that plays any role into how serious you're taking your conversation with her. Thank you so much, guys. I mean, I've never done meth.
I feel like if I did meth for years that I would probably have a totally distorted memory too. I honestly don't know entirely what to make of the way T handles herself. You can look at it a couple different ways. I mean, one of them is maybe she's just nervous. Maybe her memory is a little fuzzy. And...
She knows that she doesn't look good in this situation, and she's just trying to protect herself. And when she remembers the things that make her look good, she makes sure to let me know what they are. And then the things that don't make her look good, she doesn't really know how to respond to those things. Or maybe she's hiding something. I really don't know. T as a person has been...
mostly friendly to me, but as far as her involvement in Ashley's disappearance, I honestly don't know. And I think that that's what's making this case so frustrating is understanding why certain people are acting the way that they are. Hey guys, thank you for taking my question. My name is Cody.
I'm calling from Independence, Iowa. And Payne, I just had a question for you. What is it like for you? Yes, you're a journalist. Yes, you're an investigator. But you're listening, you're talking to these people. And for the most part, a lot of them seem very scatterbrained, very all over the place. It's got to be very difficult for you while listening to these people to try and gather the facts.
It's also very difficult at the same time. I was just wondering, like, what that's like for you as a journalist and investigator. Thank you and best of luck. Honestly, I'm pretty scatterbrained, too. I mean, as a listener, you probably wouldn't get that by listening to the podcast because all of my voiceover is hopefully well thought out. And the way the story is structured, we spent a lot of time building this and
for you to understand it. But yeah, sometimes it's really, really complicated. And I don't know what the hell is going on when people are talking to me. But I think a lot of times what I have to do is sort of hyper focus on certain parts of it
And so someone could even be talking to me and I'm not even entirely listening because I'm so ready for the next thing. And I don't want to get distracted by this little tangent that they're on. And so sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes it's a bad thing. But yeah, it's extremely complicated, but something I strive to get better at as I keep going.
Hi, Payne. This is Savannah calling again from Saskatchewan. The question that I had for you is you played the message where it seems angsty at you, and I was wondering why you had told her that you believed her. I feel like everything leading up to the conversation that couldn't be recorded, she was very angry and very aggressive towards you, and her story kind of
wasn't as complete as it is now with dates and times, etc. Is it her demeanor? Is it how she's having this conversation with you? I know it's all still unfolding, but that's just something that I was curious about. It's hard to be portrayed, obviously, via audio. Thanks. I mean, I'm not going to open up a conversation with a person of interest saying, I don't believe you. That would never work.
The fact is, I want to believe these people. I want to believe that they are good people who did not kill Ashley. But the bottom line is, somebody did. And it may be one of these players, it may not be. All I did was listen to T and take what she told me seriously. But as I collect information from other people, other places, more information from the same person, that opinion can evolve.
Hey, Payne. This is Leslie from East Atlanta. I have a couple questions about Sam. In the last episode that just aired yesterday, you sounded pretty confident that Sam was the last person to see her and that he dropped her off somewhere at a cabin in the mountains.
But how do we know this is true? I went back and listened to the Sam's Cabin episode and definitely was concerning that the girl was reporting about him locking some girls in a secret room in his house and some girls running away from his house naked.
It also seems like he may have told some lies about Ashley telling him that she was pregnant with his baby and stuff like that. So I'm just wondering, for sure, how do we know that Sam, in fact, dropped Ashley off in the mountains somewhere? Thanks so much. Love your show. I mean, we only really know that because Sam told us that.
Could Sam have made that up? Sure, but it seems like a really stupid thing to make up because it basically forever ties you to this missing person. He came forward after she was reported missing with this story. And sure, just like a lot of other people in this case, Sam may have said some things that were suspicious. Again, is that out of self-preservation? He knows he is a target. He knows that he is a person of interest, just like T.
I think that to make that story up would be stupid, unless there's something way bigger that you're hiding. Hi, my name is Angela. I just finished listening to episode nine. It just kind of hit me all of a sudden. If anyone had ever considered that Ashley, like something happened to her in the wilderness, given that she was like supposedly under the influence of something,
Could she have fallen, been left there? Could she have been attacked by an animal? I obviously don't know the area very well. This is a very real possibility. She could have left the car where Sam fell asleep and wandered off and gotten hurt. But that area was searched very well, and they found no trace of Ashley whatsoever. Could she have gone somewhere else and wandered off? Absolutely.
But as far as that particular place at the Divi where Sam fell asleep, I believe that Ashley is not there. Hey, Payne. My name is Leanne calling in from Los Angeles. I had a quick kind of question. In episode four at eight minutes and 15 seconds, you're talking to Sam mostly about Ashley and then you switch over and ask him about Big Al. And in that moment, Sam goes, Big Al, he's dead too.
And I just thought that kind of shook me off my feet in the sense that it really said that with such confidence that dead too would imply that Ashley is dead also. And I think that that was a real confirmation. And I was wondering if that's something you noticed or have looked into or if that's even something that can be looked into more. Obviously, love the show. Keep up the good work.
Honestly, I don't really put too much weight into that. Him thinking that Ashley is likely deceased. I think that a majority of people at this point probably think that because no one just goes missing under these types of circumstances. I don't think that she's hiding out somewhere. I don't think that she was abducted. I think somebody harmed her.
And as a player in this who knew Ashley, I don't think he's wrong for thinking that way. So I don't really put too much weight into that. Is your vehicle stopping like it should? Does it squeal or grind when you brake? Don't miss out on summer brake deals at O'Reilly Auto Parts.
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Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Hey, this is Ashley. I was curious if you ever talked to the guy that supposedly crushed T's car or sold it or whatever. Just curious about that. Thanks.
I have reached out to that person, but I believe he is in prison and it's been very difficult to track him down. But if I ever make contact, I will absolutely ask him about this incident.
This whole time, Sam has been saying that he fell asleep in the car, but he's never really said that he passed out from being on drugs or high or drunk. So I wanted some clarification on that because if he just fell asleep, how could he not hear her leave and a car pull up and doors closing?
The bottom line is, sometimes weird, crazy shit happens. Stuff that doesn't even sound real.
Like going to the divide with Ashley, falling asleep in the car, and waking up and her being missing for over four years. That's insane. But sometimes stuff like that just happens. And when it does, it makes it even more complicated to solve. Because everyone's first instinct is like, oh, there's no way that happened. There's no way it happened like that. But what if it did?
Hi, Payne. Quick question regarding your interview with Key. Is it possible or do you plan to have some sort of an expert evaluate Key's statements? I know that oftentimes I've seen on various programs that they can have an expert tell whether the veracity of someone's statement is true or whether they're trying to deceive the person they're speaking with.
I have my own opinions as to whether she was telling the truth or not, but curious as to whether a professional might be able to evaluate those statements. So love the show. Thanks a lot.
I'm not opposed to any professional out there examining any of these interviews that I've done, T or Sam. I don't want to fall down the rabbit hole of hyper-analyzing every single word these people say, but I would find it interesting to see what a professional has to say about whether or not they think a certain person is being deceitful. So if you are that person, feel free to reach out.
Hi, this is Erica. My question is, do you think the confusion with T is because she was high during most of this time and so her recollection is fuzzy? Or is all the confusion because she's told so many lies over the years that she can no longer keep her lies straight? Good job, guys. Keep up the good work.
I think regardless of whether or not T had anything at all to do with Ashley's disappearance, that her confusing behavior is probably coming from a couple of different places. We can't discount the fact that she was heavily on drugs back in the day and that her memory is fuzzy and also the fact that she is knowingly a person of interest in this case. So it's her instinct to want to defend herself.
Hey, Payne. This is Danielle, a longtime listener, listening to recantments about timing from a lot of the suspects that are being aired. Why do they not know that maybe they borrowed a gun or bought a gun from someone, but then they don't know if they did that, but then they have such accurate timestamps around being dropped off at home at 5 p.m. on November 10th
Thank you so much. I hope you answer my question. Have a great day and make good choices. Oh, I think they know. I think it's just a matter of whether or not they want to say that they know. Hey, Zane. This is Kat in Seattle. My biggest question is, am I the only one who feels like T is just so confusing when she talks? Um, no, you're not the only one.
Hey guys, my name is Erin from Pennsylvania. I am curious about T's timeline for when she was stranded in Washington by Paul and whether or not there is any actual proof other than friends who can vouch for her that she was there
I'm just curious if there's anything solid that places her in Washington, in Seattle, for that length of time where Paul would supposedly have an opportunity to have done this without her being present.
Unfortunately, this is not CSI Montana, so we can't pull traffic cameras from four years ago and find out specifically where somebody was. We have to go off of where other people saw her. And currently, she has more than one person who can put her in Seattle around the time that Ashley went missing. But at the same time, if somebody could put her somewhere else at the same time, that would completely discredit that.
But all we can go off of is witness accounts at this point. My name is Alicia McDonald, and thank you, Payne, for shedding light on this case. And my question is if Sam's son was ever interviewed, either by you or law enforcement, because his name has kind of been brought up in a couple different people's stories. So I'm curious what he has to say. Thank you. Keep up the good work. I personally have not talked to Sam McDonald's son.
But I do believe that law enforcement, likely the FBI, has spoken to him at some point. Hey, Payne, my name is Jordan, and my question is, how do you authenticate what Sam and T are saying with a lifestyle they have had with drug uses? Thank you. There's only so much authenticating you can do. I think one of my main goals this season...
was to gain access to some of these people and be able to sit down with them on record for a long time and put that out there. Who knows what may happen down the road with something they said somewhere else or something that contradicts what they told law enforcement. I think that as long as people are talking, even if it's complete bullshit, sometimes that's okay.
Hey Payne, this is Lily. I just wanted to say how much I appreciate you bringing the story of Indigenous communities and women who have been murdered or missing to light and bringing Ashley's story to this platform. My question for you is what has been the biggest challenge for you
working on this case and have you found the Blackfeet community to be willing to talk to you and just wondering how you feel their cooperation or willingness to work with you has been throughout this process. Thanks so much.
One of the biggest practical challenges I faced is just how enormous the state of Montana is. I swear every time that we get in the car to go somewhere else, it is a minimum of a three hour drive, which maybe that doesn't sound like a big deal. But if you do that over and over again, it is completely exhausting.
All the cities are spread out. Nothing is close together. And you can see why this would be difficult for law enforcement to solve too. Also, just the cast of people in this season, that has presented its own challenge. Trying to determine if someone is telling the truth, if they're just keeping their enemy closer, all those things kind of nag at you over time. But I'll say that for the most part, my experience at the Blackfeet Reservation has been very positive.
All the locals there have been very nice, receptive to me coming to this small town and trying to figure out what happened. And it's been really interesting learning more about their culture. It's an entirely different way of life out there. And I feel fortunate that they have accepted me with open arms. They too want to find out what happened to Ashley. And it's been four years. And they know that they have to try something different now. And that's what I'm trying to do.
I mean, she was definitely nervous.
But I was also nervous. I didn't want to blow this interview. I didn't want to sit down and all of a sudden just blank. Likely my only opportunity to talk to her. And she has reasons to be nervous. The can you heard in the beginning was a twisted tea. No pun intended there. But she only had one. She wasn't drunk. But yeah, she was nervous. But I think that as time went on, she got a little more comfortable. So did I.
And as you'll hear in the next episode, we continue to talk for a very long time and really just laid it all out there. Thanks for tuning into the Q&A episode today. If you want to check out some pictures from our investigation in Montana, I've posted some on my Instagram. So if you're curious and you want to check it out, my Instagram is at painlindsay, just my name. I've posted some pictures from Browning, a lot of the sites that I've mentioned in the podcast, but it's there if you want to check it out. Again, it's at painlindsay on Instagram.
Thanks, guys.
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It's Madeline Barron from In The Dark.
I've spent the past four years investigating a crime. When you're driving down this road, I plan on killing somebody. A four-year investigation, hundreds of interviews, thousands of documents, all in an effort to see what the U.S. military has kept from the public for years. Did you think that a war crime had been committed? I don't have any opinion on that. Season three of In the Dark is available now, wherever you get your podcasts.