From Love to Laguna Beach (feat. Jason Wahler)
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Happy Tuesday guys. Welcome back to Unlocked. I'm so excited to have Jason Waller on. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. When you pulled up, I was like, shoot, why didn't I have Ashley on too? You should have. I know. You have to have her on next time. I know. I will. So for those that don't know, Ashley is Jason's wife. Yes. Okay. So you were on the hills. Yes.

And let's talk about that. What was the timeline of that? Well, so prior to the hills was actually Laguna Beach. Yeah. So a lot of these are like before my time. Okay. Yeah. I feel, yeah, I feel, yeah. No, it's crazy. I mean, Laguna Beach was all the way back in 2005. And so it has been...

It's almost been 20 years since that whole thing came out, which is absolutely nuts. And just to see how much it's transitioned from then to where we're at today. I was actually just on a show earlier talking about this and it's like...

Back when Laguna was on, it was just cable television. There was no Instagram. There was no Facebook. There was no... It was like the OG of reality television. I mean, technically it was. I mean, I think Laguna is one of those shows that really revolutionized the way that reality television was done. Like that soft docu-scripted type of show. But yeah, it was a blast in the past, man. It went from Laguna to the hills and then I ended up on Celebrity Rehab. So you can see that nice trajection. You know, just the nice...

So it was, it was a very interesting, you know, geez, 10, 10, 11 years of my life. Wow. So obviously you said went from Laguna to celebrity rehab and what a lot of people have learned over the years is your struggle with addiction and how you've kind of just the ups and downs of it all and how it's not just,

you struggle and then you get better. And that's it. A hundred percent. I mean, you know, I, I share with people is like even going into the show, um,

prior, like I identify and after doing 20 years of work now, you know, I can actually see that I struggled with addiction way before I ever picked up a drink or a drug. And what I mean by that is, is at 12, 13 years old, I had a very, very severe OCD where I would wash my hands so they bleed. And then I'd have to wear neoprene, neoprene gloves at night with neosporin in them to help moisturize my hands.

And so there's that piece. And on the other side, that was what was going on behind closed doors. And on the other side, I was athletic, I was a popular kid, and I was kind of like living this double life at that age. But when you look at it, I was really dealing with this, the depression, the anxiety. I mean, I thought all sorts of things were wrong with me. - And too, back in that time,

The mental health was not spoken about. No. And my parents took me to the psychiatrist doctors, you know, I saw everybody that I possibly could, but you know, and I got put on an SSRI. Um, it's, it's basically antidepressant, um, that helped mitigate the symptoms. And I didn't do the underlying work that I needed to do, um, which ultimately ended up leading me into addiction.

And so there was a lot that was there, but even as a 12 or 13 year old kid, like I didn't know how to talk about that. Like even putting myself back in that day, like looking at it, like,

even being able to explain kind of what was going on, I didn't have the vocabulary to vocalize like what was actually happening. Right. And so later on, you know, come before, even before the shows and stuff, I find alcohol and it alleviated a lot of those, those symptoms that I couldn't address or it made me feel invisible. For sure. But what you say, and I guess the way, the reason I asked this is because I,

I mean, I started reality television at 15 and there were so many opportunities of like, I remember being invited to a party. I was probably 17 and I was invited to a party of Justin Bieber's and I was like, hey, yeah, you know, and I was like, OK, maybe this is not the best idea, but it's so easy to fall into that.

Yes. The party lifestyle. 100%. Well, I mean, like I always would joke about it. It's like, you know, at 18, most of your friends are looking for, you know, fake IDs. We're being paid to party and travel the world. Like, I mean, like, you know, we were living the dream, which obviously for me ended up becoming the biggest nightmare. But the access, you know, I don't blame the entertainment business for my addiction. I was pre-genetically disposed. I mean, I'm Cherokee, German and Irish. I was screwed from when I came out of the womb.

You know, and for me on that end, it's, you know, it definitely added fuel to the fire. Yeah. Because it just made things more accessible. Well, yeah. But and then also being in the limelight, I mean, one of the things I always identified with is I always had this overinflated ego with an underestimated sense of self-worth. And what I mean by that is, is I wanted you to, I wanted what you saw on the outside is what I wanted you to believe how I felt internally, which was not the case. Yes. And so I literally say that all the time. Like I'll post stuff on Instagram and,

And someone asked me, they were like, but do you really believe what you post? I was like, well, I want you to believe it. Like I so badly wished I believe this about myself or about whatever, but I'm not at that place yet. So it's, you make people seem like,

It's my therapist described it best. It's like high functioning depression. Yeah. Like you on the outside, everyone thinks your life's great. You're doing amazing. And then on the inside is when you struggle. What's that internal battle. Yeah. And that's where, again, as I, it just got elevated through the shows and through the

you know, the career, if you will, and the entertainment base. More money and more. More access, more notoriety. It just fueled the fire and it deflected from being able to take an internal look of what was really going on. And that was the true struggle, what was really going on underneath. And, you know, I was actually just on Access Hollywood because we did an 18-year reunion of stuff. Holy cow. And she asked just about being on the show and like what it was like and just that whole process. But like after Netflix picked it back up, me and Ashley watched a couple episodes, I was like laughing at it. Yeah.

when I really looked at it, you got to see somebody who's just really, really sick. You know what I mean? Like from the perspective of when it was really a character, you know, 15, 20 years ago to now I'm like,

dude, you are a, you are a sick, sick individual. Like this is truly with addiction, mental health, all the stuff that I was struggling with, but didn't. So I guess the good news to that is we've made tremendous strides to see, you know, just in the last 15 to 20 years, I think we could continue to do more. Yeah. Well, just like you say on the show, now you look at it and you're like, that's someone that really, I'm going through that right now in my life with just a few people and people are like, oh yeah, like they're so fun to party with. Like, let's go do a shot. Let's go to this. And I'm like,

if you knew this person well enough, you would know that they're not, when they're doing great, they're not up at all hours of the morning drinking and partying. They're getting ready to go to the gym and they're getting ready to do all these different things. So the person

the person that you're describing isn't the person that I know. Correct. A hundred percent. And I think that's again, seeing what's going on behind closed doors. Right. And what somebody does and what somebody is going through. And that's the thing too, is, I mean, as in high school, I was like life of the party. Right. And I wanted to live up by that because it was a deflection from what I had to deal with internally, the shame, the guilt, the, you know, the self-hatred against my existence. Right. And so, um,

- So when would you say the addiction really start? Like obviously you said as a child, but in your adult life, did it start as just more drinking or? - Yeah, so prior to like the, you know, the OCD and like the mental health components, which again, it's a variant that adds into the alcoholism, right? So like the, there's that piece started about 12, 13, 14 years old. And then the addiction really started to kick off with the actual substances.

I'd say like by 17 is when it started to become problematic. And I mean, to the point where I had to go to boarding school and I went to wilderness, I went out into the middle of Provo, Utah, this program, it was called like walkabout where I had to make my own, like whittle my own backpack, like make a spoon. Literally my dad.

Dad sent my oldest like half brother to that same... It was in Utah. Yeah. And like they... There was a parents night or whatever. And like the parents had to go sleep out there. My dad was like, are you effing kidding me? Like he was like... And this like...

sleeping bag. And he's like, there's ice all on the front. He like snuck a Coke at Reese's cups out there. He's like, it all froze. It's it was, it was so funny. Like, I mean, I actually, which is, is interesting. I obviously love nature. I mean, cause it was, it was an experience, but I actually like really enjoyed it. And it was the first time too, like where I had like my 10 cup and I'd look every morning, like it was growing my first mustache. I was like, yeah, do things coming in. So like, I felt like I was a wilderness person. Cause I was there like 21 days, which seemed like six months at the time. Right. Um,

but from there and then going to boarding school and and but that's when it really started uh you know struggle from 18 to 23 uh you know i'd gone to 12 different treatment centers was arrested half a dozen times you know just went through the the gamut uh now was that was going to those facilities was that a choice of yours or was it your family great question yeah uh in the beginning it's like starting with with uh

the program out in the wilderness and then like the boarding school was a collective agreement with the family. Like, hey, I'm struggling with school. Like I'm not going, I'm like at the beach all the time. And I was like doing that to kind of get my parents off. But I also was like, this could be good for me, right? So I was motivated, manipulated my way. I was only gone for like a total of four months. It was supposed to be a year. Came back.

And then like the first few treatment centers, it was to appease girlfriends, courts, you know, different things. And I'd say as time went on, I started to really see because it was hard, though, still, even with everything going on. Right. Addiction is a disease of denial. And so even though I was getting arrested and things, I was like,

"Ah, this happens to everybody my age." But 18, 19, I wasn't even a legal age to drink. - To drink. - And I'm like, "I can't be struggling with this." It's like, I just need to tone it down. But again, that's just how blinded I was by all of this. And obviously I can look back today and be like, "Dude, you needed help." - Yeah. - Like for sure.

But it wasn't till the latter stages where I was really in a place of acceptance and wanting to get help. But I mean, my disease not only took me to contemplation, but attempting suicide, you know? And so it was a very cunning, baffling and powerful disease

disease that addiction is and it takes you and it robs you of everything. Now, because I listened to another podcast that you did and you spoke about contemplating or actually attempting suicide. Yes. And that was before you and Ashley had met. Correct. That was before you guys had met. Did you kind of look at now looking at it because you how long

How many years sober are you right now? So right now I'll be coming up back on four years. So I originally got sober July 23rd, 2010. I had about five years of sobriety relapse, which is a really gnarly story. That's what I'm hoping you'll have a conversation with Ashley about. So Ashley met me sober and then five years into it, I went off the rails. And do you look at that suicide attempt though? And like now, and are you like, how did that not jolt me into like never doing this again or never, uh,

I know what you're saying. And I, and, and when you're in that state, it's again, is, is there's, there's different levels and variants of this. Like I look at addiction is there's like stages one, two, three, and four, like cancer. Right. And just, again, they're totally separate. I'm not comparing the two, but I'm just using it as an analogy. And when you're like in that stage four alcoholism, like,

it's like, I look back now and I could see that, but I also understand how sick I was. And there was so much work that needed to be done that it's not just as simple as like that, you know, that turning, that turning point, uh, it could be a key indicator to, to getting help, to be on the, on a journey to get, to get better. Um, but to have that be like that triggering moment. And some people have that, some people have this, this aha moment. My aha moment was it was sitting in a therapist office. It was completely different. And then from some very traumatic

traumatic event that had happened because there's a lot of things that happened in my life from the arrests, the fights that, I mean, there are a lot of different stuff we don't have time to talk about. Um, you would have been like, that would have changed. That would have changed your trajectory and wanted to pivot. And I think they all happened. And I think those were, those added value to, uh, to my story. Cause I think like something for me is like your greatest deficits become your greatest assets. Right. And I, I like live by that because all these experiences that I've gone through, there's a lot of things that I,

I had a lot of shame and guilt and I wish I didn't do, but I'm also grateful that I was able to experience and work through. Yeah. Well, was that part of your healing process? Like when you became sober the first time for five years, did you find yourself having to apologize to people and to say like, I wish I wouldn't have done this or that? Because what a lot of people don't realize that don't deal with this in their family is like,

you it's like mass destruction all around it affects everybody around you you know what I mean and so I mean it was that whole that whole process of of going through that was uh yeah I mean just like looking at like what it did to our my family I mean it just it it robbed everybody you know what I mean and there's also some codependency factors and things in there and that's where I think it'd be fascinating for you to talk to Ash because wherever there is an alcoholic there's a codependent and sometimes they're just as sick if not sicker and so understanding the disease and and

and

what it is that person's going through is important, but it's getting education around it because I always tell people like addiction doesn't dictate who we are, but it doesn't justify our actions, right? But it's having a better understanding of what that person's going through because there is no such thing as recreational use of meth. There's no such thing as recreational use of heroin or drinking a bottle of vodka a day. It's like, if somebody is in that state of mind and they're going through what it is that they're going through, it's like, if they have to do that on a daily basis, that's a pretty miserable existence. Yeah, 100%. And I think what's so hard too is like being a family member of that.

See my oldest brother, hardcore drugs, bipolar, all the different things. And I remember as a child, like that completely robbed us of our childhood because it's riding around with dad at two o'clock in the morning, trying to pull him out of a crack house, whatever it may be. And like, that's what it does. Correct. But then, you know, I look at it and I'm like, well, and even like Chase has come on my podcast and talked about like struggling with alcohol and all these different things. And, and,

I'm like, but I can go out and have a drink or I can have like a glass of wine and I'm fine. But Chase, my brother, we came from the same people. He can't. So at times it does worry me. And I'm like, well, if he's just like predisposed to that, am I too?

And that's, that's a very, very good question. I mean, is there, again, we can go down a whole thing of that as your history within your family, you know, there's a lot of different factors that, that can come into this. I mean, there's the pre-genetic disposition, there's environmental, there's trauma, there's a lot of things that can, that can, that can come in and play that out.

but it's, it's like for me, half my family struggles with some form of addiction and or mental health. You know what I mean? And so it's, it's, uh, for on our side though, is there's definitely pre-genetic disposition to it, but also certain events and or, you know, environment or trauma can definitely exacerbate and, or, you know, it's excel that process or speed that up. For sure. So when you, you were sober five years and then when you relapsed, what, what,

caused that relapse would you say great question and so when I had that five years of sobriety basically everything that I had done to get that five years I stopped doing and so uh in the simplest form my program that I have and that's different for every single person um I ended up getting distracted with worldly things and and what was really important right I mean just work money whatever it may have been because

point you had to have been like well i'm good now to a degree yes right but i also i got sober at 23 years old and still had a lot to learn and i think as i went through this as i went through the motions and the things that i was going through there was still going through that relapse it was very apparent that there was still more that i needed to discover um but going through that uh it was basically i ended up going back out on adderall

And it was not, it was God honest truth. It was not intentional. There's a whole story behind that. Met with my psychologist, basically told him everything that was going on. He's like, hey, let's get you back in Adderall. He took it when you're young. Somebody that loved cocaine, probably not the best thing to put them on. You know, end up, you know, within a month or two, you know, the stories I always...

get prescribed. I got prescription dyslexia instead of taking one every eight hours, take eight every one hours. And this was off to the races was in that for about a year on and off. Right. It was, I would be sober for 30 days back, back forth, back forth. Biggest problem is I wasn't willing to get open and honest. I was not willing to share or tell what was really going on. And at this time you and Ashley were together. We were together. So we're together five years. So we met, uh,

We actually met right around my one year of sobriety. So in July 23rd, like, so we've, we were coming up on 10 years of marriage tomorrow. - That's a, congratulations. - Thank you. And so we've been together 12, 13 years. Sorry, Ashley, I don't remember the exact, our wedding anniversary, 10, 12, 13, easy to remember.

I tried doing 11, 12, 13, so I would definitely never forget. But going through that, and that's the problem. She met me, she knew my history, but she never saw the wrath, if you will. And so her, and naturally she's a codependent. And so when I started using this stuff and as she started to uncover and discover months and months later that this was going on,

And that's the scariest part. When I drank and used before, it was, you knew it was like guaranteed nine out of 10 times I get in trouble. This time I was hiding it from everybody. Ashley ends up finding out. And then I start, you know, I get a drug induced psychosis. I get sleep deprivation. I start drinking now. So now it's like after a year, now this thing just starts to keep building, right? It's primary chronic progressive. And she even spoke in the podcast I listened to that she,

When she walked out into your garage and there was alcohol. Oh, yeah. And you had said it was... Our neighbors. The next door neighbor. Yeah. And she was like, I wanted to believe it, but in my gut, I knew...

that wasn't right, but she didn't confront it. No, and it was not having the tools or the, you know, the wherewithal or the skills to do that. And it may seem like, well, it's very obvious. You just address it again is, is their codependent. It's its own thing. Enabling it's its own thing. It's its own thing. And you have this fear of, well, are they going to be mad at me? Are they going to leave me? Are they even, and I would, and I would leverage that.

To manipulate the situation. Again, when in an active addiction, you know, you do what you can to continue doing what you're doing. And so you manipulate the situation. So even when it got to the point a month or two later when she knew it was mine, she saw me drinking it. Oh, it's not mine. I would, you know, I would manipulate the situation. All jokes aside, like, I mean, it's, I can, you know, laugh about it now because of all the work that we've done. But it was like, that's just how...

sickening it is. You know, I mean, you're blatantly lying right to somebody in their face. Like, um, you know, I'd be eating a hot dog telling you I was having a hamburger, you know, it was just like, I never knew what the truth was. So, um, which is sad because it does, when you get in that groove of things to the other person, it's like, wait, well, are they telling the truth?

You have such conviction about your truth. Yeah. Well, it's, and it's, but the craziest thing about this is like, I call addiction like a survival gene. And the way I try to relate that to somebody that's a normie, call you people normie who can enjoy yourselves, um, is, is think of when, and some of these may be ridiculous, but it's the only thing I could relate to, to that feeling. Think of when you've had to pee so bad, like that's all you think about, or think of when you're dying of thirst. Think of that, but translate that towards a substance. That's what an addict goes through.

is it's I'd be sitting here drinking, pounding vodka, crying, saying I don't want to do it anymore. I and people would be just set the bottle down. It's like a survival gene. It's like all you're doing is constantly going after that until you can disrupt that cycle. That's just how powerful it is. And when I've shared that with people that don't understand, like my dad, he's like, I just don't get it. And I've shared it with him like that. He's like,

I still don't get, but I can comprehend now. You know what I mean? I can, I understand. Thank you for pairing those two together. Even just like caffeine or sugar. Like I wake up every morning and drink a Dr. Pepper. Like that's like my thing. Right. But it's,

It's the exact same feeling that you're stating you with coffee or with whatever it may be. It's the exact same thing. And it's, it's, it's like, you know, like think like, and I want to get back to the relapse, but I think like when you look at addiction and what it is, you're willing to sacrifice everything for one thing. Think about that. And you're in to, to on the other end is you could give up one thing to have everything. That's how gnarly addiction is. Right. When you, I'm like, it gives me chills thinking about it because it is you, you,

I lost everything. Yeah. Well you, cause then you spoke about your addiction, not only with Adderall, alcohol, gambling. All of it. That, and it, that, and I look at it and I look at Ashley and I'm like, how the hell did you do it? Like. She's a wizard. Did she, was there a point in time to where she looked at you and said, I can't do this with you anymore. I have to walk away. So.

yes, get this. Um, so after all this had happened, uh, I had like a mini intervention based, like a mini one, uh, and she's nine months pregnant. I ended up going to the first floor at Hogue hospital detoxing next day. She's above me on the fourth floor giving birth to our daughter. So I was in detox when that happened, was able to go up and be there for the whole process. Again, like I can actually technically say I was, I think I was in detox two days prior to her coming in. Um,

you know, did not actively arrest the disease, did not get stabilized, went home a week, you know, after the baby went home five days later, right. Whatever it was, I was with her the whole time, went back at it again, um, for like four or five months. Uh, and then she got to a place where when you say went back at it for four or five months, I mean, just cause I didn't, I never stabilized. And so again, having some, you know, again, like how can you do that again? It goes back to everything we just talked about. Like, obviously I love my family more than anything, but

anyone that like watches you guys it's like it's it's crazy so but going back to the state is while having a newborn she was able to again and she was prior to that too she started going to al-anon started going to a therapist started getting help and guidance and direction

I came home one day and my parents, my sponsor, couple friends were there. And by her doing the work that she needed to do over that six to nine, she'll be able to tell you more. I think it was six to nine months before that all happened. So she started slowly implementing her program. Saved my life.

Because I knew at that point it was, it was over now. Cause again, remember nobody knew, like I was working with, with Dr. Drew. I was working with Dr. Hedrick. I was working with all these people. Cause she had, she had hit it from everyone as well. Correct. But that's just family, everybody. But I also was able to mask. I like perfected how to use like, which was this, I break off a quarter of an Adderall, take an airplane shooter. Nobody would know what was going on. Like it was this most sick amount of time before. And then it'll last me this long. It was a full-time job. And, um,

Even though, like, I mean, at home, I'd completely unravel, right? I mean, I'd be pounding vodka and all these different things. Poor, like, again, poor Ashley with all the stuff that she had to experience. But do you think it brought you closer in the end? 100%, because, I mean, you know... And the fact that she did not walk away, because most...

Most people I feel like would have just been like, I'm done. Yeah. Like a hundred percent. I even told her that I've even told her that, but I think all great change proceeds through chaos. Right. And I think by us going through what we went through, it's a lot of this opportunity to be able to help like as many more people. Right. Because it is anything worth having is not easy. And again, as I'm not it,

There are people that are in a situation where they have to leave. But for us, it's created us this opportunity and platform to share on our experience, not only from the addict's perspective, but the codependent's perspective and how they go hand in hand. And too, she spoke on the podcast. She was like, never once was he abusive. There was none of that.

It was more verbal. Like, I'd be very aggressive. Like, you know, just demeaning. Like, it was... And we had to work through that. I mean, we had to go to therapy. We are at a place with communication. We couldn't have common communication. We had to have somebody that had no bias on the situation, being a therapist, to help us navigate some of the most simple conversations. That's how destructful it got. Like, how close of a sliver was just hanging on. Yeah. And so, it was...

It was, yes, it's definitely. And that's what, like I talked about God, how he works is like going through all this. And then like, we went back on the Hills and like, we really tried to the best of our ability to utilize, like, we're like, we weren't know if we were going to go back on or not, you know, or like, do we want to do this? Do we not like,

I've done this for so long. And, but it was like, it was like an opportunity to shed light on what it is that we had went through. And again, you know, TV, it's not, it's, we, we thought we were going to have a different narrative and be able to explain it more, but we are able to talk about sobriety. We're able to talk about recovery. And I can't tell you that the thousands of people that reached out, um, because we, after that came out, we shared a lot of the story, you know, not necessarily on the Hills, but through interviews and different things and,

I never thought people would be in the same, literally the exact same scenario. - Yeah. - To them just giving them hope, you know what I mean? Just letting them know they're not alone. - Well, because you've made it out on the other side now. - Ah, the sizzle of McDonald's sausage. It's enough to make you crave your favorite breakfast.

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But now with being four years sober, does it worry you as that five-year mark comes up? Why are you throwing that question out there?

- You know, honestly, I don't look, I feel like I'm in such a different place in this sobriety journey than I was when I originally got sober at 23. I've done a lot of work, a lot more work than I initially did in the beginning. And I can just naturally see with where I'm at on a day-to-day basis, like the continuous of growth where that was kind of diminished. I think a lot of it had to do with maturing as well and being an adult, being a father, being a husband, you know, being a friend.

Look, just because I'm sober doesn't mean my life is easy. You know what I mean? There's definitely the ebbs and flows, but instead of my life being like this, I want it to be more like, how do I get it more? Because balance is a mirage. That's bullshit. You can never have perfect balance. Never. But how do I have it more just like a steady flow? And so seeing where I'm at, the constant growth, deepening my faith, I mean, you know, from just going to church once a week to now attending Bible studies to now doing daily devotionals, like I just see how I'm continuing to grow in the right direction versus like,

going the other way like i did before um uh you know i don't i don't uh but i also don't want to say i have power over the disease you know what i mean it's a day-to-day thing and i have the opportunity in the daily reprieve that i do to to keep the disease at rest um now with ashley does she because i know she spoke about when you guys got together like she didn't drink for a year or yeah what's that yes yes so that was

In my head, now that you say that, I'm like, dude, I'm going to marry this girl. Because just when she said that, it wasn't that I necessarily needed her to stop. It was just the fact that she went out on her own accord. Again, not having the knowledge or understanding, but that's also what a normal person, a person that doesn't depend on alcohol can do. Yeah. Well, that's what I said. I said to Chase, I drank with him one time. I was 90, drank with him one time. And I said, never again. Never again.

I will never forget the moment. We were in Florida. We were in some club and he's going haywire. And I was like, this is so bad. I was like, never again. And now 26 years old, I have not had a drink with him.

I will not like, if I know he's at a bar, I'm not, I will not be there. I won't just cause I'm like, I, for my own sanity, you don't want to condone it. Right. Cause if you're around it and supporting it, you're basically saying, if you're there, you're saying, Hey, I support the way you're behaving. Um, and, and it's the reason I like,

it hits me is because I laugh with, with like my dad, we've always like kind of our standing joke is like, he's never had a beer with me. And at my, at my, as a legal age, like we drank one in the car when I was like 18 or 19. But since I've been at 21, I'm 36 now we've never had a beer together. Like he's like,

Again, you look at that, which again, he supports and is very happy that I'm sober. He does not want me to drink, but it's just like, that's kind of like, we hang out a lot. There's a lot of stuff that we do and we always kind of look, it's like, yeah, dude, cheers, Diet Coke. But does she, does Ashley drink now? Yeah. Okay. But she's,

It's like a glass of wine. Yeah. Like in, in those early stages, the reason why it was so important to me is because it was like, one is to see that she understands. Cause I also told her when we first met, I said, look, my sobriety is the most important thing. If I don't have that, I have nothing. And she held onto that. And so, and she even says that till this day and she got to see the ramifications when I did not have my sobriety. Yeah. And so, and again, not on her, I'm just saying like, like when I stated that, like there's, and I truly meant that.

Again, lost sight. I'm not a perfect person. And two, you're going, what I've had to realize, it's like, it doesn't matter if I don't drink around you. If you want to do it, you're going to do it. It doesn't, like, what I, Grant,

granted it's going to help when you're living with someone every day and they're not drinking, you're not drinking, but like, if you want to do it, you're going to find a way to do it. And it was just a hundred percent, but it was also from that perspective though, living with the person and just having that support and knowing that she took what I was dealing with seriously. It takes a level.

Well, because there's often people, even still to this day, that just don't understand. And they just don't have the courtesy or the decency to like, you know, could put somebody in uncomfortable. And yes, it's that person's responsibility and ownership for putting themselves in an uncomfortable situation and having the ability to remove themselves. But if you care or love about somebody with a lot of people that I've talked to or that I've worked with, it's like,

guys you just got home you know if it's especially if it's a a kid that's coming back to his parents like you guys shouldn't be drinking around him you know like it it's it's just it's common courtesy and support right to have that because there is uncomfortability in that and that's why it's important that you build a foundation you build a fellowship you have your own community in that process but

Again, it's, it's the more that we can educate people that don't have the disease or addiction, because I'm all for people that can enjoy themselves. I'm not against that. It's, that's, it's, and there's no jealousy. There's look, it's, but I'm, I'm for the people that can't and that, that get into that headspace that are stuck in that bondage that can't get out. And it's that miserable existence. Like it's a horrible, shitty place to be. And so I'm there to advocate and try to support and help those and have those that can drink and can enjoy themselves to have a, just a better understanding and knowledge of what that person's going through.

- Well, see, I have some friends that are like sober. I mean, very sober. And you see like, whenever you go out and someone offers a drink and,

they're like, oh no, I'm good. Like, you know, I don't drink. And I feel like we're getting to a place in society to where it's like, oh, that's freaking awesome. Yeah. I just tell people I break out in handcuffs. So I'm allergic. So I was like, you want, you want your place to burn down? Then that's a whole nother, a whole nother story. But yes, it's, it's, it's what you look at. I mean, there's literally sober clubs in discussion now. There's, I mean, there's every damn near every restaurant's got mocktails on it. I mean, so there's,

there's a trend to it but there's also like working with daniel who we both know very well his whole theory is that alcohol is actually going to be looked like as like cigarettes was in about 10 years yes i saw that video dr amen and he'd come on the podcast before so if you haven't watched go back and watch it because it's very informative but he does say that that like and i'm scared to because i mean i do like to go out like have some wine and stuff and i'm like but he

but he's right because you see more and more and more people, even the people that don't struggle with addiction aren't drinking anymore. There's a lot of people that have just stopped, like that didn't have necessarily an addiction issue that just want a cleaner life. And now with you being someone that struggles with addiction, what is your viewpoint on, because it came very popular, became very popular this past year or two, Demi Lovato stating this California sober lifestyle. Uh, I,

I, for me personally, that is not sobriety. Yeah. It's, you know, that's what I struggled with because I was like, but you're still smoking weed and it's a mood altering substance. And again is, I mean, you also have to understand too. So just for simple responses, no, I do not believe you're sober if you're, you're smoking weed and doing stuff like that. Because at the end of the day, marijuana today too, though,

we're seeing people come in that are in drug induced psychosis is based on marijuana. I mean, your body, the potency of THC nowadays, it is so potent that your body can't synthesize it. And so it's putting people into schizophrenic breaks. I mean, it's, it is so gnarly to see what marijuana does. And again, as you have all the people that talk about the medical benefits, there's,

understand that but these dabs and these these these waxes and these different concentrates that they've created it's like going from a beer to drinking triple wild turkey you know what i mean like i don't even i can't even think or moonshine times 10 you know that's what i say to people i'm like because weed is this cool thing and i'm like but i know someone that smoked weed and it

like set off something in their brain and now full on schizophrenic. And I'm like, it alters your everything. Anything that you put in a hydroponic thing that is this big one day and then three weeks later, it's 15 feet tall. You know, it's not, you know, there's nothing organic about that thing. So I

again, like it's, it's, I'm not here to, you know, to, to, to tell people what to do or not to do, but just my own experience, like when it comes to sobriety, I think, you know, it's, it's abstinence and because it affects the same receptors in your brain. I mean, whether it's, it's Adderall, whether it's alcohol, whether it's heroin, whether, whether it's marijuana. Yeah. We'll see.

I say from my own personal experience that I believe marijuana is a gateway drug. And the reason I say that is because I dated a guy. I was 17 years old. He was 23. Want to be musician, like all these things smoked weed all the time. And so then of course I'm like on this rebellious stage. Soon as I turn 18, I'm smoking weed all the time with him. And there came a point where it was like, wait, I find myself like,

this, like craving this. And I was like enough. And luckily I've got that personality to where I was just able to be like, all right, no more done. Yeah. You know, done. But I wholeheartedly believe that's what I tell people all the time. I'm like, I wholeheartedly believe it's a gateway drug. A hundred percent. I mean, I, I mean, look, I think there's, I think you can too much of anything's not good. Right. And I think that's the other thing is I think I, I genuinely think everybody's addicted to something.

when you really look at it, whether that's work, whether that's sex, whether that's drugs, whether that's exercise, whether that's food, there's, I mean, in some variants, I feel like it comes down to looking at it. Unfortunately, some addictions are more severe than others. So, I mean, I think everybody's kind of got that struggle with something wanting to be liked, wanting to have whatever it is. If you kind of just look at your life and it's like, where am I overly lenient in one of these areas?

And so, again, I just, I share that because I think that it's, when you go back to like marijuana or these mood altering substances that are gateway drugs, but it's also, pot and marijuana is not what it was 25, 30 years ago. You know, it's a totally different game. And like I said, it's when you're seeing people come in on a daily basis now that are literally have rewired their brain potentially forever, depending on what it is that they've struggled with.

And they're not coming out of it. You know, so it's, it's, it's awareness, right? They're having understanding around that. And there was, there was a statistic you shared on the other podcast I listened to about addiction and like leading cause of death. Yeah. Addiction is the leading cause of death in America for 50 year old individuals and younger.

- That is, and have you seen an uptick in that since the pandemic? - 100%, basically, if you look at all the graphs, all the charts, and they're all behind by a year or two years, right? I mean, just 'cause they gotta catch up, but it's been the last 20 years, it's just like this. - Well, that's what I say. I say like on a different scale,

there's a graph that shows like our prison population and how it has skyrocketed. But there's also a same graph during that time to where you see mental health and people who struggle with mental health. Obviously all these institutions like state funded, they've all, there's really none left. And so you look and the mental health, it's going down in population at these institutions. But at the same time, the prison population is going up because there's

we're not fixing and helping people instead we just throw them away band-aids band-aids yeah bandits no it's it's um it's very unfortunate you know when you when you look at this and it's um my whole theory is and just what i see and just a lot of the people i work with a lot of people i've talked to especially from covid we're in this like slingshot mentality where

I don't even think we've seen even close to what the repercussions are going to be when you take some people, especially a large, you know, a specific portion of the demographic during that time, you isolate them and you take them away from some of their most developmental years of their life. There's going to be, that's what I'm referring to. There's going to be astronomical repercussions from that. I've even seen, I'm like, you see an uptick and,

OCD, anger, like all these now being put it back into a school environment. Overdoses, suicides. I mean, you take things that are, I mean, you're actually seeing deaths that are, that are, that are contributing to this and it's, they're all continuously going up and it's,

And that's why I'm just grateful that we're even able to have a conversation around this, right? Because a lot of people are scared to talk about it. But the landscape has changed too. Even from when you were 16, definitely to when I was 16, I mean, like I never had to worry about going out and snorting something that was going to kill, like if it was going to have fentanyl or different things. And I mean, like the landscape is just...

I mean, you got pot now laced with fentanyl. You got cocaine laced with fentanyl. You got, I mean, you got pills that look like Adderall. They look like Xanax that are pressed with it. Like the landscape is just different this day and age. It is. And it's like, when are we going to do something about it? I had a friend of mine who like, I went from,

second grade to probably second to eighth grade with but we stayed in touch like even into our like adult lives and he passed away from uh getting drugs that was laced with fentanyl in la and dealer that did it obviously the police know but it's just there's so much of it that it's like what it

What do we have to do to stop? My biggest concern too is like look there's there's again accident over I'm so sorry about your loss and and but there's still a large consumer of straight fentanyl. And we always talk about how much fentanyl is here how much fentanyl is here right like which yeah let's bring light to it but my biggest question is why is the demand so high? Why are so many people wanting to... I have not heard that question. Why are so many people wanting to escape?

And like, I think it's looking at it at a much bigger level. Yeah. And I actually was one of my dear friends who's high up the DEA. I asked him that question. It's like, that's an interesting perspective is because we talked about how much is here. It's like, again, it's like, we obviously we're losing the war on drugs. You know what I mean? So it's got to look at it at a different way. And it's, if you've got that many people are wanting to use something that is, that just totally takes you out of context. Like,

It's something we got to look at. Yeah. Well, it's a friend of mine, Colton Underwood, who was the bachelor. He came on my podcast and he spoke about how he just spoke in front of Congress not long ago about mental health within, you know, with athletes. That's what he focuses on because he played college football, professional football. And he spoke on that and he was like, when are we going to start paying more attention to mental health?

Because we're not. 100%. And I think it's important, again, I think to create systemic change, it's creating the conversation, having the conversation. But we need, people need to be more actively involved, even at a governmental level, that can get more engaged with this process. Because again, we need solutions. Stop.

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What are you doing to tell us about kind of what you're doing to give back and to guide and mentor? Yeah. So, I mean, from a work perspective, which directly correlates in his hand with that, I am the director of the Change Your Brain Foundation with Dr. Amen, which has been absolutely incredible. I work with the first ever Jayco accredited at home treatment provider, which is a concierge treatment center, which basically provide treatment.

to the individual in the comfort of their own home. Wow, that's awesome. Which has been incredible. I serve on the board of Cure Addiction Now with Nancy Davis. She founded that. She's also the founder of Race to Race MS and she's created 24 FDA approved medications for MS and basically she's stealing the model from Race to Race MS and incorporating that within addiction. So we literally have 10 to 12 researchers right now from Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cedar, Sinai, Mount Sinai.

We're funding studies to look for cures for addiction. We've already found one non-narcotic sleep aid, Balsamara, that reduces cravings in opiate addicts by 50% to 80%. Wow. We're basically removing the molecule that reduces the craving, doubling it, keeping the sleep component the same to see if we can get it to 80% to 100%. So some fascinating research going on there. And then I'm doing a lot of stuff here in Tennessee,

I actually did a PSA. You guys have moved to Nashville. We're here in Nashville, you know, or actually we're in Franklin, but we're in Tennessee. And, you know, we've we came here and I got, you know, I got to know some of the mayors and I got to know some of this, you know, the city officials, the health department, the prevention coalitions. And, you know, my heart's just in giving back. You know, that's a big part of what fills my cup is is is is giving back and not looking for anything in return and

We did a PSA here where we basically got all walks of life. Anybody from Mike Vrabel, the head coach of the Titans to the head of the DEA, city officials, public figures to talk around addiction and mental health. And basically it's this platform we created as people can go and see people that they look up to or respect and see what it is that they went through or how they combat or how they deal with stuff all the way to having ACM certified doctors, which is addiction, especially their addiction, especially medicine doctors.

that break down like what is addiction? What is mental health? How do I know if I struggle? What are the signs and symptoms? What do I do if my child's struggling? And so people can actually have very digestible information and little clips that they can start to educate themselves to learn more and more about this. - I love that because in it's statistically proven lower income households

don't have the resources that someone else in a higher bracket would have. And so it feels like, okay, well, they've forgotten about me or I'm lost or, and that's the sad part. Cause I've had so many people reach out to me and they're like, but we don't know what to do. We don't. And that, that's the heartbreaking part. Cause I'm like, well, I wish I could save everyone. Well, and again, it's, it's, but having these conversations, providing those

Those resources I highly would advise for people that are going through that are wanting just to learn more or just get a better understanding of what addiction and or mental health is, especially if your child or

loved one is going through it you know you are not alone tn.com or.org I should look that up I should know that but uh you are not alone tn.com or org um it's uh it's an incredible resource and then you know there's there's a lot more that's becoming available for people to be able to go but by talking about it and creating discussion letting people know they're not alone allows them the opportunity to feel connected there's a sense of safety and there's an opportunity for help

So what's one thing that you wish someone would have said to you? There's definitely... Not mine. What is it? It tastes like... I don't know. Sorry about that. At first I was like, um... But it worked. Whatever it was, man. All good. Hit me with whatever it is I'm wishing.

You know what that reminded me of is the moments when I used to fill water bottles with vodka and it was like, I would think it was water and I'd take a swig. Oh, I was like, uh, it wasn't definitely an alcohol, but it was like very lemony waters. But you know what? You're expecting water and you're like, uh, this is not it. That's amazing. Sorry about that. Hey, Savannah, we're all good, man.

the answer this from two different perspectives okay as someone who was struggling with addiction what is something that you wish someone would have said to you you know i i think i think everybody did everything they possibly could back then uh and so i i honestly there's not something that i wish somebody would have said if i could have spoken to myself i would have said

you know, you, you, you're, you're, you're not, you're not weird. You're not, you know, you're, you're not a loser. Uh, you know, you, there's, there's hope in this process, uh, be open and be honest and, and, and know that you can get through this. I think it would be, it'd be self-reflecting and talking to myself because there was so much just isolation that I wanted to, you know, I wanted to make sure that it, like I was perceived a certain way. And it was like, I, I jeopardize my own wellbeing. I'd say, don't jeopardize your own wellbeing on behalf of others. It reminded me, uh,

I think Kendall Jenner did it with Dr. Amen, an interview. Yeah. And I think during that interview, she said she was speaking with her therapist and her therapist was like, but would you say all those things to the little girl you? And she was like, she sat there and her therapist was like, I want you to go through and find a photo of you as a kid and put it up on your mirror. And every time you think of saying something negative to yourself, say it to her.

And Kendall was like, I can't do that. God is my witness. In my bathroom, I have a little picture of me in my fifth grade. No way. That is...

So is that, is there's a component to that? I actually even flipped, flipped the script when I first got sober. I also had my favorite mugshot and an eight by 10, uh, in my toothbrush drawer. Like when I was first getting sober as a reminder of where I didn't want to go back to, I looked like it was like my Mel Gibson mugshot where I mean, it was just, it was, it was gnarly.

But I have there, there's something correlation. I'm a very visual person. And so I literally had that there for my first year of sobriety. So every time I open my drawer, I mean, you know, brush your teeth every day. So I'd see it a couple of times a day. I'm like, yeah, I'm good. I don't want to do that again. But no, I actually found a couple of, it's been like three years now I've had, I, and it wasn't anything. It was besides just a reminder to what you're talking about. I have just this, this little, it's not like in a frame, right? This is a little wallet size photo that I just have by my, on top of my, my

by my sink and it's a reminder. - That's amazing. That's amazing. - It's powerful. - So before we finish, what is one piece of advice you would give to family, friends, significant others of someone that's struggling with addiction?

I would say, look, you're not alone. You know, there's a lot of other people going through this process. And the best thing that you can do is be open and vulnerable. And, you know, by expressing vulnerability creates humility and allows you an opportunity to connect with other people that are going through the same thing. So reach out. That's amazing.

That's awesome. Well, I cannot thank you enough. This is fantastic. Showing up, being here. Yeah. And hey, guys, I've told Jason he and his wife need to have a podcast. So I'm going to keep hammering that one because maybe in the future.

future no you guys are awesome i love following y'all on social media and i'm having her on next yes you should have just a different perspective because she and i are very similar in the codependent side of things i went to on-site yeah and program that is i might have all my codependency things or like you do realize that like oh no you and ashley you and ashley gotta talk and she and her she is

It's amazing what she's been able to do for herself and for our relationship. Yeah, because not only is she like... She's done work on herself. We were talking coming in. I'm like, she's a freaking awesome mom, business owner. Like, she has a salon here in Nashville. Yeah. Doesn't she have her hair accessory line? Yeah, she's got her hair... She's got...

It's Wonder Woman. I don't know how she does it. I married above my pay grade. I love that. I don't know how she does it all, but she does. I love it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me. Oh, that's just me. Perez Hilton.

Drinking all the tea that goes on in this world. And with the way social media is, I just can't get enough. I'm obsessed. It's like every day something new and scandalous comes out and I want it all. I'm the OG of entertainment gossip. And if you are like me and have an unrelenting thirst for all the drama that's flying around, you should listen to my podcast. The Perez Hilton Podcast. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

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