274: Does It Work, and How Does It Feel?
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Welcome to under the radar a show about independent IOS APP development. I mark arment.

and i'm David smith. Under the radar is usually not longer than thirty minutes. So let's get started.

So it's labs time for vision owest. The labs were announced. They are starting like this week, like they started very quickly after announcement yeah um this this is kind of an exciting time. I kind of expected this to be much later in the summer and note it's no.

no, no. I I was say IT in a delightful way completely caught me by surprise like I knew know they apple posted on the there like visionless compatibility planning page that in july they were going to be announced was like, you know that that that was they had listed that and I expected with that meant is they weren't ready to announce the logistics at W. C.

But they were ready gonna announce that, you know, sort of sometime towards the end of july. And IT would be something describing a process that would be the end of this year, like october, november. They would be the lives potentially with the like.

There are three levels to this that they had announced then where there is these compatibility valuations, which is kind of like apple test flight will test light, test your APP, like you send them build of IT and then someone at apple would run IT and give you kind of a report about IT. And I think this is also specifically focused on if you have an existing APP that you're curious how that would work without making large modifications. There's a process to that.

And I figured maybe that will come the summer to kind of get people warmed up. And then they have their labs thing, which is these kind of on in person, hands on experiences actually running IT on physical hardware, and those are expected to be the end of this year. And then they have a process where they describe that they'll IT as some kind of developed a kit and that like who is hard even have expectations with something like that.

I think generally that's going to be going to very high profile developers, people who whose apps really need physical act, physical harbor, wanted to be developed at all. Um no, there's experiences that I could imagine, things that if your APP just doesn't work in the simulator for whatever reason, like you are much higher candidate for getting developer kit, but even the developer kids are expected to be same kind of thing like end of this year and then last week, apple announced it's like to see it's towards the end of july. So they have true to their words, the announcements and it's like everything's you know kicking off right away, know a week later um which is exciting, which is cool, which is also a little whelming and uh is something that I think is I think I think we can have a some interest discussion about the the actual kind of logistics of how this is going to go.

And then I have to think also some tips for people who are fortunate enough to go to one of these labs. I think i've you know had experiences similar to this in the past through of my career. And I think there are some things that you can do to really maximized your time there.

But like just to start with, it's like both the lives are here there um in catini, london, munich, shanghai, singapore, in tokyo. So there's in a variety of different places. There are a variety of different times.

And IT was a process of like you apply to IT and the process was relatively been no serve straight forward. They just wanted to know about your APP and where you are, know what APP you're working on, why you wanted to come to a lab. And then like that was that that was IT and like and if if you're we're selected for one untill you'll be going to IT this week.

So wow, like I was not expecting that. And I think i'm very glad that I prioritized some of my vision's work for this because originally my plane community ability c was okay. I'll focus on I was seventeen and wash of us ten and those will be my primary things, and then you presume will get this shipped and ready hofus ly by the begin of the temple september, those will launch. And then if in my mind, all the actual hands on experiences we're going to be coming in october, november, that be perfect, that's when I could start working on vision of s but when apple added little like things that they know they we're going to make an announcement in july. I guess like my spider senses started tingling and I was just like, you know, maybe I should prioritize spending a week really focused on visionary s now just in case just in case that there's this is actually gonna sooner than I think when they say, like it's good products, onna launch early next year, maybe they mean you know january of february rather than like march or may.

And that was a very, I guess, a smart move on my part to just spend some time doing that because I have a pretty good prototype of which Smith running in visionary s in the simulator and kind of eva that the enough of a prototype dare that it's would be useful to go to a lab that that would be useful to um have some experience actually on a device because there is something there. It's not just like my first, you add the White, you know, do the thing they always talk about. And if you see where as I can go, just add the target vision OS and then boom, the apple run there .

and it's just check x just check .

a teck box that works and IT does work. The apple will run. Yes, but it's awful.

Yes, i've had enough time to be able to make IT not awful. It's not perfect, but it's it's not awful. But yeah, I was not expecting this. I'm glad I was not ready to be able to apply though, and it's kind of exciting that soon in some ways like I I mean, mostly just coming from a place if I was, you know, I was one of the people who is fortunate gh to try IT w dc. And that experience was just amazing and like kind of overwhelming.

And if anything, IT was so surreal that I now almost that feels like a dream, like IT feels like this abstract thing, like I like, I actually do that. That was I actually that did that happen? Or is I just like go to see the announce the vision pro and then I like.

had a dream one night. You were there, but I wasn't really you.

I heard someone else have experience that he feels very abstract because I was kind of an overwhelming sensory experience and so came back really excited about IT really really, really judging know jazz about um developing for vision O S.

But it's like now i'm excited that it's like um maybe I be able to actually try again and in a way that won't hopefully be so surreal because IT isn't this like thirty minute you know high speed tour through all the things rapidly experience on rails that presumably if you go to one of these labs you had been working on my APP in visionary s and actually trying IT and experiencing IT and not being on rails for that experience. And so that's very exciting to actually like see what IT would be like you amazing and exciting. But who boy I am like I mean I am both incredibly excited and also incredibly nervous what this will do for my summer plans because like I was seventeen is still coming.

It's still like it's only we've announced. So you know, you know vision, vision, vision, vision lab soon I was seventeen, pushed off for two months. It's like I still somehow got to baLance these two things, but that's a problem I welcome navigating for sure.

And I seventeen has a whole bunch of new things for widgets, which is kind of your deal. So that is not like this is a quiet summer for you. No, I I I kind of don't know. But every few days I forget the vision pro in vision OS exist. And then like you know, if you remember, like a wait minute, there's a whole new platform that I have to be prepared for.

And you know I do some experiments and know where my stuff in the simulator and and can sy, okay, well this is interesting, this kind of work this kind of doesn't um and then know I directed by I O I O S seventeen work for a while after that again, not forgetting with the vision of us and then they go on to announce labs and oh oh no, if I if i'm going to be there, you know, on day one, a visionless x and we don't we don't know even when that will be. All we know is quite early next year and that could be in january second or what could be made thirty first IT could be a huge range. Um so i've had a hard time figuring out when and how much to invest in visionless right now.

Um I I think from a pure numbers perspective, investing in visions O S, it's kind of like a high risk investment. You know it's like some some new crypto coins coming around, let's booming. And so okay, well, you can invest some in that.

And depending on how much rescue want to take, you and I could have big upside, probably not at least not yet, not for a while. And that's how vision O S, I think, is if you are investing all of your time and visions OS, I think that will set you up for potentially very higher reward. But that's a risky game. It's probably not gonna a big boom time quite yet now that could have other value like this platform is going to be.

As we mentioned before, it's probably going to have a pretty slow start in terms of just sales volume and and influence and demand for various apps, but that doesn't mean there's none and there's there's other things that so even if your APP doesn't sell a whole lot of unit copies on vision us for a long time, um IT might be might be good for things like if you want to have like a blog or youtube series where you're teaching people about vision OS IT can help boost to that. Uh if you want to have um you know more promotional opportunities from apple maybe um you know that being a visionary person and being a good citizen there will probably improve your likelihood of that. There's kind of other side benefits there that like even if your APP is not onna, sell a tone of units for IT, IT might make sense for you to invest some time there.

But in the question of courses, how much like if you look at other devices, for instance, like imagine if, like would you make an APP? Would you spend half your summer making an APP that would only work on, say, the mac pro or an APP that would only work on the twelve inch ipad pro like these devices that are like a higher and. Probably much lower volume than their peers.

Um and imagine imagine targeting only a total ent inx ipad pro with the most recent m two chip and the one terrible configuration that's probably more like the volume we're going to see on visionary less in some ways that also shows kind of what the market is like. This is going to be a product that has a very small market by numbers, but IT is a high end and specialized market to start over time. IT will brought in, of course, but right now, it's gonna a high and specialized market.

And so IT does probably make sense for a lot of people to be there. Uh, but it's gonna also be hard to justify investing tones of time there now, especially before we have the harbour because anything and this kind of gets to get to the value of the labs and if possible, to devote ate anything that you design or build or or imagine for vision O S. Now before we have the hardware, before we have access to the hardware and experience with that, we're probably going to be throwing away three quarters of anything we make right now for IT.

Because once we get the hardware, we're going to realize, oh, this thing I spent two months on, on the summer, that I need to throw that all the way because IT doesn't work right, and I need to design this way instead. Or this this interface idea I had doesn't work or this know or it's it's in practical or IT doesn't fit the the model of everything else that you're doing on visionless. Hi, I have so many these questions.

This is, this is why I actually applied for a devotion ate not because I think i'll get one, because I think the chances of that are pretty low just because my APP is not you visually a more server flashy. You know, you mentioned people who would get device ates are probably going to be people who they can really need them for their APP. And there's pretty much nothing about my APP that require a defecate know.

I would expect that to be things like people doing custom hand gestures, super immersive experiences like that kind of something. I'm doing one of that stuff. So I wouldn't expect a deficit.

But the reason I want one is, you know thinking back to when the ipad launched and we had time to develop as before and and then I got the ipad and I instantly throw away the entire interface I had made for IT in the S. D. K.

Time, like before IT, because the interface I had made for IT was terrible. And even now, so often I will design something in the simulator for even just the iphone. And then I run IT on device.

And if, oh, this is, this doesn't work at all this, this thing is too small. This doesn't look right. This doesn't feel right. And with visions, O, S, I don't wanted invest huns and tunes of time into my APP before I have a vision pro to use IT on, because I know that i'm going to end up throwing away so much that stuff or need to redesign so much of that stuff.

And and so IT is kind of an odd time to think about, like how to allocate time to this platform when I O S seventeen is coming only not only much sooner, but also two way more people and way more devices. So I think IT makes sense to like button my is seventeen stuff first before having into vision, but at the same time now vision develop a relation. Stuff like this is i'll starting up now and it's like I now I kind of regret not doing more revision stuff so far this summer. So I don't know how are you thinking about this? yes.

So I think would the broad philosophy that I think I would advocate to people for able to consider who are interested in making apps for visions is that I think you're one hundred percent right that this, until you actually have experienced a visionless, had said on your face, do you are using IT experiencing IT?

IT is going to be very difficult to write quality, you know, apps that will really thrive and be successful in that platform that you're going to be making. If you're just using the simulator, the simulator is great for the like iteration. Part of this in terms of the actually when you're you know you're tweet of you, you're changing the hierarchy.

You're doing things like that iteration that's fantastic in the simulator. IT gives you a good, good of experience there. But the more like fundamental question of like, is this a good idea? Is this something? Is this a concept that has legs and is valuable and would be cool that you really need to be on device to understand? And so you like the philosophy that I love is aren't doing for myself.

And I think I would generally recommend is, I think IT is wise if you eventually want to be on visions. S to spend some amount of time, and you know, before I was seventeen or soon, to work on your idea to get IT to a place that he would be worth trying out at the lab, and especially, I would have advocate with, for focusing down, like whatever, the key experience, the key moment with the key path that you expect users to use your APP for. Like, tried that.

Like that was the approach that I took in, which is smith, is there's a bunch of things that I have ideas for on the sides. But like, I wanted to make IT that you could configure a widget, show IT in the headset and have IT expand and contract into a tool like that. A that experience s that I was kind of my core belief for how this would be useful on the platform I wanted to build.

And then there's a ton of other stuff that I completely ignored and just don't care about yet. That will come much, much later. That will be winter and fall work that I can feel good about put putting off.

But it's I spend a little bit of time now getting your APP into that place that I would be useful to try a lab, apply for a lab, hopefully, hopefully get one and go to that lab so that you're cause like once you've gone to a lab is my expectation is that all of the visionary s work you do after that will be dramatically and meaningful ly Better. That you will be writing Better code with Better U. S.

And Better user experiences. Because you've been there, you've tried that on device. You have a sense of IT in a way that isn't this abstract concept, but is a real tangible thing. Or you'll have ideas for features or home new apps that come from your experience at the lab that you just wouldn't have until tried IT. So it's like do something they do enough that I love is useful that you have something to show you are something to apply with.

Now not don't go wild on IT probably, but just enough to get to a place that you would be useful, apply for a lab, hope you you get a lab and then expect that the majority of your actual development time will come later that you IT. Isn't that once you've one to a lab, you've then have to know immediately dive into visionary s one hundred percent your time because you have had that experience like probably not, if anything, is what i'm expecting is IT would be much more of a i've built my prototype. Hopefully I get a lab good to the lab and then go back to U S.

Seventeen and let IT kind of noodle in the back of my mind for the next few weeks and months to improve on the ideas and the concepts and potentially be coming back into the iteration in the simulator based on that. Um but I think you can't expect to write good visions OS apps if you've never warn a visionary. S and so I would encourage this why I sort of say, like you need to do just enough or have enough of a concept that is worth going to a lab in terms of like the way that the labs are sort of structure that seems it's not intended to be like a speculative, like I just wanted kick the tires.

It's you need to have something to show. You need to have something that clearly demonstrates that you are actually you meaningful ly and invested in working on this platform, but you don't need to have the APP finished to be at that point. And so like get enough that you are you have a reasonable case to go to one and go to one and expect that hopefully that opens up a lot of doors for you, both in terms of ideas and things, in terms of understanding user interaction and then know like at the very least, they've said it's not coming until early, early next year.

So you have at least until by december thirty first that you that that's really the day the earliest realistic deadline. And most likely, I don't think it's going to be launching in january second, and I think it's much more likely to be a bit later than that. So we have some time to actually do the great work to do that.

You know the part of the development process that will take time rather than the part that is just like that superficial, important, like nAiling that core concept and then you can worry about the rest of IT later. So like that's the approach i'm taking. And I think IT seems reasonable. And I think that means that makes the lab useful. And getting a lab sooner rather later is probably also very useful just in terms of being able to have had that experience and be able to be thinking about IT, to be able to imagining what this is like in a much more tangible and practical way.

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And so guess so, like that's my kind of overall framework for what like how how to struct your time. And I think additionally, something that I wanted to kind of close on is of cross finding black post to this that I am not like reading the blog post necessarily, but I think there's a lot of things in this where if you are fortunate enough to go to one of these labs, that is the kind of thing.

And i'm speculating wildly on this because like as far at this point, no one has been to one of these labs. We don't really know what they are going to be like or if people are going to have to talk about what they're like. But it's the kind of a thing that I think you can go into IT with a fair bit of just like speculating based on past general experiences that there are things that you could do ahead of time to be more successful if you get one of these that going to an event like this like your enemy is wasting your time because it's very time limited.

It's going to be the kind of thing where IT starts at this time. IT ends at this time. And that's IT like times up they they take your hardware and say goodbye and you're not like, oh, well, I wasn't quite finished oh, it's like the labs over like that just IT is it's not like, oh, you can come back tomorrow and keep working on IT.

It's like, no, this is your slot. Use IT wisely and be thoughtful about that um as a result. And this can take a variety of different forms. Like on the one hand, it's like be thoughtful about just setting up your work environment.

Like if you have if you usually work on a desktop and but you have like a laptop for travel, well, make sure your laptop is like set up and ready and has the latest version of x code on IT and as plenty of this space and has like all of your files that you need in order to run your project, these are things where you don't want to be spending the first thirty minutes of your lab downloading ex code and waiting for you to unzip itself. They just they don't don't do that. Do this ahead of time.

Make sure that everything you have is that in place, everything is good to go, you know, you're laptop city and like make sure that IT works to the degree of like hopefully you were able to run your project that you're going to work on in the x in the vision's simulator on that computer and IT should work great. Yeah there's no build issues. There's no prod problems of that like you verified your tool set such that you're not going to waste any time that as soon as they say go as soon as they i've noted how this would work.

But imagine at some point they're distribute you a device and then you'll be somehow connecting you to your mac. Like once that happens, you want to be able to, just like I was going to say, put like put your head down. But if I got put your head up, I don't even know, you worry vision pro, it's I put IT on, you'll strap in, I don't know. And like get started. Don't feel like you have to wait and waste your time because your your tools aren't ready to go or something like that.

Do you think they're going to have these in like a room with a couch, like like a big empty table, like what you do? This situation is like with the physical environment around you.

Well, if we if we've learned anything from the vision of us simulator, it'll be three rooms. They'll be a kitchen, a museum in a living room.

Wouldn't be amazing if they actually had those at the life.

They actually the exact like with the same artic, the same, the same table, the same art in the wall, the same every year .

they just made like thirty of .

them exactly like I will have that would be amazing. But as I don't know, I think the physical layer, something like this is so impossible to imagine because like some of the device requires physical space, like in a way that um like developing for an iphone. And I am I want into this a little bit with an iphone APP where like IT requires walking.

So you know sometimes into her when i'm working on ometraco lus, I need a device that I can walk with. But if you were making a vision OS APP that required you to move around the space, like in the demos where they had the thing with the dinosaurs, you like walked around and interacted with the dinosaur, like if you are developing one of those, you're gonna be able, you're going need to be able to get up and walk around. And so it's not just like here's your little cubicle, like have added that doesn't make any sense.

Like I don't know, like I don't necessarily envy the amount of square footage that I suspect these lives will require just logistically to do, but I don't know. Like I think there's going to be some space because it's a device that benefits from that. But uh, I do not envy whoever had to come up with like where how the the physical logistics s of this work, we mean activity, see that that build a whole new structure.

Just have any question about eight demo rooms.

So I don't know how this is how does this going to work in practice? But like however, it's gna work. Like be ready to take advantage of IT, I guess were comfortable shoes. I don't think I put that on my list, but like we're comfortable shoes. If you be walking around, uh.

inside of IT, that's great. no. And I wonder to like you could i've you're making me want to like flight to california and bring a protect play x dr with me know you like half have your work space, you know, have your work set up and like I can work on on a laptop just fine, but I would much rather, I much more efficient the more screen space. Think very .

open question like he like to wove the mac caring feature a good .

that's like a roughly twenty and equivalent to monitor like can I develop in that while using the vision would stop?

What are there even there? Like it's if that is the case, will IT .

require co A H?

Yeah because I don't run not running you to know my main P2P. Now not like crazy like I would to install a beta O S where I do my main work. But the same time, like if that's the way I need to do IT like that would be awesome. But so there's been some, some things that are unknown going to IT, I think, and that's just, just the bare minimum. There's going to be some unknown that we have that you just want to be as ready as you can be, but understand that whatever you do is not gonna be you're never going to be totally prepared.

And I think on the other side of things, by just what saying is I would say it's wise to go into something like this, being thoughtful about what you hope to accomplish and like, write that down in a list and like a work your way through the list so you don't get stuck in some rabbit hole that you then look up and it's like three hours of past and most know you just lost a third of your time and you haven't accomplished the thing you are actually hoping to get to. And like it's fine, I think for one of those things to be you spend sixty minutes expLoring the device, like just doing, like go open safari and go to go to the verge and read some articles. Like that's fine, just like if that your goal is to familiar eyes yourself with the device, with the concept, like those kinds of experiences but like you set a timing on your watch to say, like i'm doing this for thirty minutes, i'm doing this for sixty minutes, whatever you kind of plan you want to have.

But mostly I hopefully you have like here's some APP experiences that I proceed that I want to try. I want to see what it's like to do this. I want to see what it's like to do that and work away through them and kind of have a guideline that if at some point you feel stuck, you hit a like you hit a, hit a that end, you wants to be sure that you're like, okay, i'm just going to bounce off of that like this idea didn't go anywhere.

This idea isn't working. Like for some reason, I can't get IT to work. It's not compiling right to this feature that I think should work isn't work. Like there might be some staff there who can help you if it's that kind of like a technical issue. So I know why I want my vision of s APP.

You compiler it's not loading right? There might be someone from the like develop a resources group who know if you filed one of your like dev tickets with I think that those people will often you should be someone who could come to something like this and be helpful to you. But if there is someone, help ask but if the answer is like, huh I don't know that seems like it's just broken.

I have something. Go to plan b like go to your next thing on your list. Don't get stuck because this is a very time of that, that experience. And you who knows if you're going to get another one like IT, seems like there are several of these that, that they are setting up. But if they at all constrained in terms of capacity, I wouldn't expect to be able to like keep going back to lab after lab after lab because that seems pretty unlikely if they're all the verse described.

Yeah I think your goal here should be you we're mentioning earlier.

How know when you actually have real hardware after developing in the similarity for a while, you realize what works and what doesn't your goal should be like as quickly as possible? Figure out, does your design work? Does your interaction work? You know what? How does that feel and does IT function? And try to try to answer those questions, how does this feel? Does a function for as many separate parts of your apps or concepts or designs as you can do on time because the other stuff, the bin pieces of like how you know how this view is quite laid out, like know the details of how it's laid out or the details of some animation, the details of some er underpinnings that can be all worked out on your own time later in the simulator. But what can be worked out best on device is does that work and how does that feel?

yeah. And I think those if you can answer those questions, you'll be set up for an exciting like a cool I get for you know summer begin to fall about this new platform. Like i'm still super excited about IT experiences for thirty minutes and i'm still like whatever a month and a half later, i'm still jazz about IT.

I'm still super excised. I have to manage that in terms of the way that interacts my I was seventeen time, but i'm super excited and I am so excited that this is gonna en soon. So everyone else going to have this experience that I had and be excited about this platform because I think it's super cool.

yeah. Thanks listening everybody, and will talk you in two weeks.

bye.