It’s Not Just the Presidency. Congressional Races Matter a Lot for Crypto - Ep. 726
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This really is the most important election like we are going to have this opportunity, we, we think, to go in and get legislation done so we can stop the regulatory chAllenges and have a pathway forward.

Everyone, welcome to unchained, you know, high resource for all things cyp to i'm your host lorrigan, author of the cypher opium. I started covering cap to nine years ago and as a senior edit forms was the first meeting of water partner to cover copti y four time. This is the extrovert twenty th twenty twenty four episode of unchained poke.

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thanks. Having a slaw. It's great to be with Christian and we spend a lot of time together. So it's always I was a pleasure to meet again over zum.

We're in the last week before the election, and while the crypt to community has been paying close to to the presidential race, there has been a whole host of other contests that could also affect cripes. Before we dive into the specifics on these various races, let's also just talk generally about the importance of congress for crypto in this particular election.

What would you say is at stake for the industry? What could the industry get or not get depending on how these races go? And Christian want that we start with you?

yeah. No, there are that you're absolutely right. This election is incredibly important for crypt U. I mean, I think because you know and we've been talking about IT for years over the past three and half years is particularly with the S C C, that the curve dote industry has just faced an unprecedented ad level of hostility.

And I think we've finally turned the corner on towards that hostility and are now entering the friendly or phase. I think we made a lot of progress this year with congress and thinking about market structure legislation and say, will clean legislation. And I think when the new congress comes in next year, we'll be able to get that framework into place so that we no longer have to deal with the regulation by enforcement approach that we've been having to deal with over the past up about the years.

That's great. Yeah I know that industry obviously would very much welcome that. And alex, what do you think you what would you say is the import of these different congressional races?

So first, I would just like to start by saying any parts on views that I may express today are are my own personal ones are not necessary. The views of paradise group and kind of republican politics have worked. I work for speaker the house, john painter on the hill, and in financial policy, encrypt a policy since.

But we have both strong republicans and democrats at paradise. And so we try to dig really, really foreign, all the legislation, all of these races on both sides, the isle Crystal nail said, I think this is going to be the most procyta congress that we have ever had this coming congress. I mean, it's pretty undeniable the impact that the industry has had this cycle, not just the races that the the super packs have been spending in, but also some of the kind of more underreported ones in safe blue or red seeds.

I think couple good examples. Samsara, who is running for congress in california, is the former mayor of san hose and he was actually the one who integrated helium S A essentialize ed wireless to the city for for free wireless. Everyone on the other side of the ae. Riley more, who's in west Virginia, his current state, hey, saw a bunch of coal mines being referred sed for bitcoin mining. So it's pretty clear that just across the board, crypto has grown, a crypto influence has grown and there are more pro crypto candidates running that will be in congress next year than ever before.

Yeah, I mean, I I did want to touch on this because I am sure you guys i've seen the coverage a lot of people are making, you know hey, of the fact that I guess the biggest financial influence in the selection has been cypher money and um you know some some view that as negatively because it's not always just closed, but then obviously IT is having this effect. So yeah, just what are you seeing in terms of like the reactions to that?

Yeah no, this is then this is a bazoo. We have the world's largest super pack, right? This is not a Normal tool that industries have encrypt u has decided to go all in on.

So I I would love to take a few minutes to talk about fair shake uh the super pack that that is funded by the critical industry um and just sort of to talk about what it's doing. I think um alex gana luted distance of the the new sort of by partisan group of members that we're going to have coming in the congress. Fair shake has played a huge role in this.

I do want to say I don't control the fair shake pack. The first shape pack wasn't my idea, but as somebody who represents the industry and washing in the presence of the super pack is is very much noticed by offices on capital hill and the cure money is a big part of the conversation. And you know members of congress, you know how to run for real election and it's expensive to do that.

And you know there's always third party influencers come in. They're very interested in understanding who the people are in the crypto space, how they can get to know about about IT Better because they see this as something that could be very helpful to them or very helpful to them if if they are against crypto o and so working at a level of a discussion that I ve never seen as an industry in washington right now because of that. But I think it's been really interesting about fair shake as they've done the non traditional things to me.

First, there is a very large size pack, right? And IT is all fully disclose. There's a lot of money in campaigns that happen through is t four organizations that are that are much less disclosure.

But this is like out of the open, you know who contributed money going into the pack. You also know um you know where all of those contributions are going to. It's all publicly disclosed. And I think what what they did was interesting as they looked at these sort of open seats like alex was saying, these are these are districts that where the current congressman has retired and stepped away, and there was gonna somebody new coming in.

And what they did is they often played in the primaries, which usually you don't have third party money coming in to primary elections because people don't want out you know help pick the winner or loser but what gypo did is they will pick the winner or loser and now those winners are very grateful for having that sort of help early on in the process. Then what fair ship has done in the general elections um and they go in the primaries as well as they have helped candidates who have been very proscriptive in congress. They have said, hey, we have these leaders and key committees who have been very helpful, who have taken time to get to know this space and they have gone in and supported their own campaigns.

I think most notably, what the pack is done is they have gone after candidate to have a very anti cripes. So I think most notably, sure, Brown, who is the current sitting chairman of the senate banking committee, the shake is spending about forty million dollars in favor of his opponent and an effort to unseat him. So these are obviously really, really big bet. Um but I think it's it's it's a very aggressive strategy. It's very different.

I don't think most industries were to have the stomach for the appeal for for this level um and I think what ultimately um you know what happened is that no cypher will be taken seriously, will no longer be sort of casts cide or told that all the agencies are already happy authority you know people will look at us and fake all right, let's have a real conversation uh because you know your playing at a very high level and you're here to to make sure that you get the framework you need and you're you willing to play the game to do IT. So so I I am excited about IT because IT that makes my job easier. Again, I don't control IT, but it's it's not a very, very aggressive.

And how much if they spent on this election so far about .

one hundred and seven million dollars.

And okay. And it's just for context, like what is the second largest amount or or like what's a typical amount that an industry would spend.

So there aren't really typical industry super packs. I think the most comparable big effort is probably a pack, which is the pro is real pack. But yes, Christian said, we are the single largest non presidential super packs. So like the the Donald trump per pack and the commalena super pack are quite large, but ours is entirely focused on congressional races and quite sizable.

So um I imagine like basically people are paying attention because the money. But is there a sense of I got so like you probably saw the new york article about a fair shake and um there was a sense set that the article kind of was trying imply that I don't know if like the word unfair, but just that these industries are like spending you know just huge amounts to see these elections like they're not always like, I guess.

So for a lot of these ads is not total clear who is running the ad. Like for instance, one of the fair shaker face is just called defend american jobs. So do do you sense like is there like any backlash to this amount of money coming from this industry? Or or do you really feel like it's just it's just allowing you know, it's it's making people more open minded because I can see IT either way, I can see IT think people just being pragmatic and being like, okay, we have to deal with these groups have a lot of money and then other people might say, wow, this is you know kind of just beyond the typical and and they're trying to like use money to. Get things that are maybe not like exactly what the electorate .

ones I will look at. I think that this has allowed the industry to have its voice heard in washington in a pretty like incontrovertible way. So it's very easy to read whatever kind of policy news outlet in dc over the past couple of years and read a punch of anti crypt of things.

And if you're members of congress have to deal with, uh, a huge variety of issues on any given day and their staffers no different, it's really easy to just read the news and say, oh, well, cripp doesn't seem like something we need to care about so i'm contends to either not care or be actively against IT. And this has kind of broken through that log jam where members have had to say, you know what, i'm going to take the time to dig in. And often times what they find is a lot to like.

Democrats like how IT expands access to financial services. Republicans like the kind of, uh, censorship, resistance and individual financial liberty angle gypt as a non parties in technology. And so this has been like A A very, very useful tool to to have our voice heard.

Yeah and I would say it's been really interesting too because you know in past campaign ycl, we don't have candidates who were running for congress for the first time call us up on our main number of the blockin association and said, hey, i'd like to learn from about about cryptanalyst ever happened this year. We've had one, maybe two candidates a week who are coming by that want to sit down. Alex will come sometime.

This will pull in other people from the industry that is have a conversation about IT. This is what were building, this is what we're doing and this kind of outreach from candidates and existing members of commerce as well. It's it's not happened at this level before.

We always had to be the ones kind of pushing to go me with people. Analysts completely reversed the other way around. And so it's been um just really huge opportunity to do that kind of education. Um I can not even to the policy issues with these folks yet, right?

We're just trying to let them know why we're excited about crapo, what the industry is building and let them know that there's it's important to keep this here in the united states that the very highest level. And it's wonderful to have these conversations with these candidate before they get to congress um as opposed to having them get there and then you know taking several years before we get to them. And especially like if as we saw this year, we actually are having votes on the floor, the house and senate on these issues. And so um it's not just the committees of jurisdiction that are thinking about this now. It's like the whole of congress and we um you know a really good head start with this new congress in terms of of having more .

educated congress to work with.

Yeah, I could see all of that being beneficial. And another thing I wanted to ask was, in that article, they seem to imply that both democrats, republicans are getting upset. Think.

yes, I I mean, listen, I think I think at the end of the day, we will look back on this and be like, oh yeah, there were a few people that were upset but the bigger picture is that you know you want to you know you you want to talk to crypto o you want to be with cyp do I think um yeah if you're shared Brown and you're in forty million dollars spent for your opponent, of course you're upset, right? If if the primary level that is a little bit different because they're usually supporting a republican versus republican or democratic s democrats, you know there's a lot of stake here and and the reality is that this matters and that you know there are consequences to the decisions crapo are are making um so I think you we'll have to see how everything shapes out on election and you want to know this onna work out but but yeah I think its gets me matter but I don't know alex .

no matter thoughts yeah I I think paul gray wall was an interview over the weekend as A C L. O. And and I think put IT really well, which is like wind loser draw no matter what cyp do has won the selection.

There's gonna be people who are mad at anything that you do in washington, D. C. Deal making.

If both sides are are upset, that means that it's a pretty good deal. I think running for congress and getting your issues and your voice is heard is is similar. We're making plenty, plenty of friends.

You're gonna maybe a couple of enemies along the way, but I can't tell you how many members of congress or candidates that I have talked to who are so grateful for the crypto industry for per paying attention to their race and supporting them, whether that was a super pack, whether that was executives just taking the time to to meet the industry, has gotten so invested in the outcome of our democratic process. This is pretty remarkable. Um I think for the most part, silicon valley likes to say that it's it's across the country and dc should stay out of its business.

And cypher do I think, learn a very hard lesson back in twenty twenty one with the past that the infrastructure act in the inclusion of the broken reporting rule that you can't ignore D C, because soon or later IT comes knocking on your door. So um we've fully learned our lesson. We've dove in .

yeah yeah I mean, um yeah I was interesting because just from the way that they described IT IT definitely seems like and the initial approach was that will be by parties and well as support whoever on either side is procreative. But then yet that ended up resulting in both sides getting very mad. Their own members were being targeted. Um so before so before we dive in to like all least different races, let's just talking about which committees and some committees are important for crypto and why. So just do a quick run down of like which ones you guys are you know typically pay attention to in what area of cypher policy they have an .

impact on cher. So there's kind of four key committees, and there's a few a kind of lesser but still important committees. The four key ones are the two financial services committee, so the senate bank in committee in the senate and the house mental services committee in the house.

They oversee the sec, all the potential regulators, so the O, C C, the F D I C, and the federal of of the bank regulators, and then the house instead agriculture committee is over. See that the commode futures trading commission, uh because ultimately was he was commode futures that would give rise to that agency. So it's interesting because on the one hand, you have two committees where all the members there know that they're they're here to work on finish services issues.

And on egg committees, you have a bunch of members who join for agricultural issues. Some join because on another from chicago, and derivatives are right their backyard. And some of them joined because they have dairy farmers in their district and they care whole lot about them. So there's a very interesting kind of divide between the two.

And those are the four committees that um I would say Christmas I spend the majority of our time with one step down from there is probably the the house energy and commerce committee and the senate commerce community which have overside over kind of like more broad technology issues. So all of the kind of platform, big tech issues, telecom networks, energy, the ftc. So like nf kind of resides over at those two committees.

And I think next congress will probably see both of them digging a little bit more and get more involved. And in the last two committees are always important, but don't get a tord of attention. And that's the two tax writing committees.

So in the senate, that's the senate finance committee. And the house, that's the house ways and means committee and next year is the expiry of the twenty seventeen tax custom jobs act. So next year is like tax super bowl. Um so so regardless of what happens a at of the top of the ticket, there's gonna some big taxi and crypto probably going to have A A rules of play there as we try to keep ourselves, uh, I guess, off the menu to use dc and to also try and get some some tweak around the edges that could have really important and impact for outcomes for the industry.

okay. So one other thing I think the audience should know before we dive into each of these different races and and the different communities is um as first understand there's a difference and that we democrats determine committee termination and how republicans do so Christian, can you explain that?

Yeah and alex free to add anything I is here um but yeah democrates tend to do a seniority system and so what often happens is they go to the person who has been serving on the committee the most. They give that person the chair position and that that you know person would hold that seat for as long as they want.

So like, for example, for looking at Maxine waters, who's currently the drinking member on the democratic side, SHE will likely continue to be the chair, and he will do so as long as he serves in congress. Republicans tend to do IT differently. They usually have often there's like a race between some of the more senior ones um and they end up selecting you'll be the chair. So for example, with past member, it's unclear who is gonna replace him as the republican need on the house financial al services committee but whoever does get that position will only hold IT for six years and so we know there's sort of term limits and republican sentiment ycl through but alex, feel free to add anything I miss .

yeah um it's it's interesting on on the outside yeah on the republican you have have this this horse race where you've got kind of a merokles tic process um every chair a hopeful comes in gives their pitch to the steering committee which is this kind of secretive body that a overseas who h gets names chair of each committee and like your you're fun raising for your colleagues how much you campaign around the country to help your colleagues get elected.

All factors into this process, all the different candidates who are running for to be military successor or all relatively programs to congressman french hill was one of the lead authors, fit twenty one and actually was recently in the news because he helped secure the release of t Gavin from bias who has held captive in nigeria. I think anti bar is one of the other lead candidates. Um he's been really duggin to kind of the financial institutions angle of hypo.

So he's really interested in stable coin in issues and cutting down human transaction costs and the like. And bill hyena, who's been on the committee for for quite a long time and has overseen the cap market subcommittee. Overseen the S, C, C, and then Frank luis a, who actually has shared the egg committee too.

So he's seen that kind of break between how the sec in the safety c over a lap and how they fight. They they disagree about who regulates what. So there are no real bad outcomes for cyp du.

Um losing sherman mcinerney is obviously a loss as how much is he's prioritized industry, but any anyone who replaces him will be able to work with on on the senate side, I think it's important to point out that the outcome of who controls what chAmber has a huge impact on who chairs the committee. So right now, democrats control the senate and share red Brown is the chair of the senate banking committee. IT is more likely than not. We can get into a little bit more um in a second but republicans are most likely going to control the senate, which means that senator tim Scott of south CarOlina is a the most likely canada to share the senate banking committee and he is said that he wants to create a digital asset sub committee has specifically focus on clip to issues so on both sides of of capital hill on both sides of the eye or making a tono forward progress.

Yeah so now so now we're getting into kind of like the different uh, committees. But yeah, why do we start with that? Something pinking win because obviously shared Brown is um that's the race that fair shake has by far spent the most of its funds on.

And I saw graphic and you know the amount that was sent and he was like all the way out to hear and and all the others were like close to the execs so um yeah I just was pretty start. They obviously are are focusing most of their firepower on that race. We talk a little bit about why that particular race is so important to crypto.

O yeah well, all maybe certain. Alex um hinted over to you. But so first of all, ohio is is a swing state and so um one of the handful of senate races that have the opportunity needed to switch from democrat and and go to republican, I think know to sup back at a high level the the senate has a unique role to play for the croppo industry um one our greatest enemy IT was with warm and sit in the senate and SHE sits on this and making meet and so you know if the democrat in power SHE has more power so this is one of the cases where yes, crypto is by partisan but having a republican senate will help us with with the is a bit warrant.

The other unique power that the senate has that the hello doesn't have is that they confirm nominees um to the agency so the president will nominate someone and then the son of the community will hold a hearing, approve them in the full senate core will take a vote as well. And so you know having a republic ican senate would probably ensure that somebody like their guns, lu r doesn't get back into the administration as treasury secretary or as continuing at the S. C C.

And so so as you look across the senate races, have to remember only a third of the senate is up every two years. They have six year terms. Ohio is one of those states where there is an opportunity to make a change.

And it's also dealing with somebody who's been in this position of power where he could have stepped up to help the industry um and dinner and so IT is again, this is a pretty aggressive bad. I don't think most industries would uh you know go after and target the sort of sitting here for committee, but this is this is that this is what I guess we're doing this as the script to industry. But alex has i'm sure other things had .

yeah I think this is a particularly difficult call that the folks who are making decisions over at fair shake made. I think generally speaking, when Chris nine are our colleagues in the policy community copes the hill, we try to assume that there isn't necessarily big mAlice on the other side of the the desk. Maybe there's just a lack of understanding, maybe someone's missing forms.

If we talk to them and we explain crypto w, we explain our issues eventually IT might take some time, but eventually they they'll see things our way and understand why this is truly the future of finance and and the internet shared Brown, I think, is A A unique example of someone who I think has had plenty of those conversations and two date has yet to show any interest in 威联。 He is a friend and and I think ideological A S C chick against ler and also of senator list with war. And they have a lot of kind of staff in common.

And he has certainly been an obstacle, as Christian has said, to to progress. So that kind of like the one. And then you look at the split screen of who hit the guy running against him, miss, this is, uh, gentleman by the name of berne murray now.

And bernie build a career, a kind of building car dealership, a network across the the country. And back in twenty eighteen, he decided to use this experience in kind of car titling and everything and decided to start a company called chap titles that actually brings car titles on chain, uh, to show provence and an ownership. He also started, uh, I think, like crypto incubator in cleveland to kind of Foster a nason crypto community there.

So on the one hand, you have a guy who's been unique, ly and helpful. And on the other hand, you literally have eclipsed to founder. And so it's it's a pretty stark contrast.

And so the industry decided that a change maybe would be positive. And I think I mean, it's it's important to look at polling and see what's happening. And in shared is A I think twelve year in comment.

He has seventeen year in comment. He has an extraordinary ground game. He has amazing constituent services. If you listen to to burning maria talk about shared, he he acknowledges that is like a look like you could have a died in the wall republic lan who gets into the ballot box he says, you know what i'm a republican but shared Brown was who helped my wife get a passport when um we were like trying to get to our kid's wedding in italy or something like that.

So um he is like a really big kind of machine in what is a traditionally a more red leaning state. So the expectation is triple probably to Carry the state by uh, seven to eight points. Uh, bernie will run a little bit behind trump.

There will be some ticket splitting folks were voting for trump, folks book who vote for share red right now. I think the last three sets of polls, morning console had burned up by one that was our to our fifteenth active vote. Had him about by four hours twenty.

And then yoga had Brown up by two october twenty one. So there's been a lot of lead changes. It's going really tight.

The kind of general consensus if trump in the city by eight points or more, he Carries burnie over the hump. This is going to be a really tight election, I think, pretty much every single race. So a wait to see what the overall .

outcome is yeah this um with something that we reported on here and untamed. And when you look at the polling over time, berny really came from far behind and and now it's it's really closing the gap. But I do think that truly has to do with the fair shake money.

Um so one other thing that I wanted ask that was part of what we reported on was if Brown gets knocked out because of the seniority process for dams, um IT actually looks like the next most senior wood potentially beales with warn. It's like kind of confusing because there are three people but like one of them is not gonna in one of them. You can't hear more than one committee and they will probably want to do the other one.

The last one is not clear because they already hear another committee. If they would keep that I wanna take the senate thinking, but if they don't want to, then that would be worn next. Um obviously this only matters if if the democrats keep the senate um or or if in two years they retake IT. But do you guys have concerns about that? Or .

yes, I think will take things one thing at a time and cross bridges as we come to them. Did IT to put IT a slightly final point and kind of what you ran through IT, which is which is accurate. So jack reed uh has senior oral above warrant he's the current chairs of the senate armed services committee.

John tester is running in montana of all of the different senate races that are probably going to break the earliest and most decisively um montana is probably one of them um so set at control you need to have fifty one seeds obviously or fifty plus the White house because the VP the time breaking vote job in western in or retired a jim justice whose republican will win by like thirty od points. So that's already fifty fifty. So you need just one more in order of flips and a control right now m SHE.

He is running ahead of john tester in, uh, montana by about five points, triple in that state by fifteen to twenty points or so. So even though polls closer earlier in ohio, you might see a clear winner earlier in in montana. So john test or gets knocked out, you assume and then you have mark Warner, who's the current senate intelligence committee chair.

Warner is this is a kind of an interesting thing, this why you have to look through all the different political kind of permutations and incentives and what not. A Warner is up for reelection next cycle. So in twenty twenty six, he's going to be trying to keep his seat. And typically speaking, its way easier to raise a bunch of money for your reelection as ranking member of senate banking, then as ranking member of senate intelligence. So I went speak for for senor Warner and what he willer want to do. But there is a decent shot that he decides to to take the the ranking member gavel which means that warn is still one seat off um ultimately he decides not to war and will extract a pound of flesh on every single deal but he does make deal swell as I think sherie Browns just been totally uninterested in engaging so you'll maybe make more forward progress. There might be some pain along the way but h it'll be at least progress .

yeah I would also add to um and what kinder goes back to what you're asking at the beginning where IT shows that like this really is the most important election like we are going to have this opportunity, we we think, to go in and get legislation done so we can stop the regulatory chAllenges and have a pathway IT forward. And I think that yeah, I think there is a very strong likelihood. Um I think it's well in to the eighty percent ots.

The market that the senate is on a republican control. So I mean the worst case scenario would be to eliza IT for for somehow like to lose short Brown and lose john tester and then lose some republican seats to the point where the the democratic controlled the senate and eliza but warn is in charge, right? Like that is the name mark of scenario. But I think that if he is ranking member, or if she's just on you of the democratic side, the committee while there in the minority, then we can still use this opportunity in the short term to get a bill done but you know it's point he would probably chair that committee and um you know we need to try to get all of the work we need to get the framework in place before SHE gets to that position.

Yeah the last thing that I would add to is you have to also understand how warn experts power.

So warn back in, I think, the the twenty twenty democratic primary when biden ended up becoming the nominee for the democratic party, he was also running for for president and SHE basically cut a deal after he dropped out of the race uh with biden I will throw my support and the support of kind of my progressive coalition behind you in exchange for basically staffing your organization with economic policy staff of kind of my ideological bent um that was how biden got over the hump against bernie Sanders. And we've kind of seen the downstream effects of that. There's actually a really terrific of ox article from a couple weeks ago.

I think it's how the rise and fall like new econic progressive ism or something to that effect. And IT IT describes this whole process. So that's how you got kind of gary against ur as S C, C chair. Instead of someone who is maybe a little bit less activist, you got lean icon of the ftc.

And that's how like even if you have someone like to say Janet yellow on the top treasury, the staff below her might have gone through the Elizabeth war in school of economics uh while edia o who's the the deputy secretary the treasury was the first chief of staff the C F, P B that oh a bit warn stood up. So there is a whole kind of conStellation of how do you place people around washington, D. C.

That you can then kind of almost have this call and response across town to orchestra h outcomes. Uh, you see that a lot when, like treasury writes a letter to the hill asking for certain authorities that so that folks are on the hill can then write those authorities for them. Often times the focus in the hiller are who are asking treasury to write that letter in order to do that.

So if you assume that there is an administration change, if that's a Donald trump presidency, obviously all of those people are are basically gone from governments. If it's a commonly Harris presidency, there's probably going to be some change at least uh come Harris didn't strike that same bargain with, uh, Elizabeth warn that joe biden did. So they'll be some turn ever. It'll be a little bit more gradual and it's hard to say kind of where IT all shakes out. But in either outcome, there is at least some hope that warn might be somewhat less effective and having reach across town, that helps to be more effective on the hills.

Okay, all right. So in a moment, we're gonna talk about the other of various committees that could impact crypto policy. But for a secret word from the sponsors to make this show possible, poke dot is the original and largest layer zero blockchain with over two thousand and plus developers, and the anticipated poke dot two point of upgrade will be a massive c accelerator for the ego system, upgrading the infrastructure with eight times higher to transaction through IT and twice as fast block times. Perfectly tailored core time for the needs of every protocol trustless bridges internally and into a theoria Cosmos near finance marchin and revise token omics in the implementation of a token burn to reduce inflation, perfect for game fight and define to build, grow and scale with one of the most active crypto communities in the space, pogo out recently announced to a partnership with mythical games, bring top games like N, F, T, rivals with over six hundred and fifty thousand players and forty three million transactions to pay the way for game five and the pogue ecosystem.

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So we talked little about the different contenders, uh, for husband services committee chair under republican letter house and I will say, well, the senate, we kind of have A A preform idea that's going to be republican. The house is is honestly anyone's guess tons of razor than races with a razor than majority to begin with. So really could go at either direction.

French ill, I think he's probably the best known to the crypto community. He, as I mentioned, was one of the lead authors of fit twenty one big crypto market structure bill um and has worked with a chair in machinery on on stable coin legislation. He also has been the chair of the digital asset sub committee.

So a lot of the crypto specific hearings, he's been the guy with the gavel asking all the questions and kind of running hard. Andy bar might be slightly less known. Um he has taken kind of a more populist approach to kind of some of his policy um which I think lends itself well to his chances with A A trumpet White house.

Either of that honestly like there are no bad answers. They're all pretty good answers. They're all great guys who are interested in crapo and who are interested in getting market structure and stable coins across the finish line.

So I mean, I don't even think that we can pick favorites there. They're all great candidates. If house control flips, as Christian mentioned earlier, magazine waters, uh, will likely chair the committee again. He has been pretty focused on getting to some sort of deal on stable coins with Cherry mechanical y there is a chance that it's done before the end of the year during lame duck, which is kind of the the weird gray zone after an election. But before all the new congress comes in remains to be seen.

Ultimately, I think this is why next year and next, congress being the most procris pto congress ever, uh is important because ultimately chairs will reflect the will not only of their voters but also the will of their conference. And if you have a new majority of your conference that wants to work on cyp to issues, if everyone on your committee, except for maybe one or two members, as I want to work script, it's so popular with my constituent or it's so important to my state or my district, she's got to a sit up and take notice. I think the other piece here too, is one of the big voices that um been in her staff s year has been S C C chair gary gansler. And if he's not there anymore then you don't have that kind of counter bAiling force that calling in a in doing staff brief ings before fifteen one comes up for a vote saying this is the worst thing of all time and who in security law forever? In either outcome, the the industry will be be able to make progress IT just comes down to how quickly do they prioritized.

okay. Current, you want to add anything on to about that committee or should we move on to the adg committees?

No, we can move on onto the an committees. okay.

So the next ones, as we discussed earlier, our senate house h wanted we discuss, I guess we'll start with senate IT looks more likely, as we said, that republicans will take that.

So yeah well, this one is interesting. I may we will start on the democratic side. Um you know right now we have debby stab who he has actually been working uh very diligently ah those who quietly throughout the summer um to come up with new market structure and legislation.

IT hasn't been released publicly yet, but she's been doing a lot of work on this space. You know unfortunately, she's actually retiring this year. SHE SHE represent Smith hagan and she's decided that she's moving on.

I think nobody fairy shake is actually supporting the democratic lish and just kind of interesting to note that um but SHE um she's going to be gone. So on the democratic side um the the one below her is actually cheered Brown so we gone. He is also on the agriculture committee.

Um you know I think you know if he wins, he would probably want to keep banking over agriculture and then you have amy club cha who could potentially step in and take that position um but you know she's is fairly senior so it's a little bit uncertain in you know notably here and july brand is on that committee. So SHE would be obviously and amy is like drinking member or or our chair of the agriculture committee. Um and so um I don't know if there's going to at alex summer the democratic side.

I think the other thing with Julia is he might uh angle for democratic atta campaign committee chairmanship which is basically the campaign ARM of senate. So if say, republicans have one, the senate debs are trying to take IT back. A really, really great position to fundraiser kind of bring about that outcome is going to be as uh ranking member or or chair of of egg would be ranking member given that publication said one. But yeah there's there's a unch great bunch grade members on on the I community .

and just um because I don't remember roabe discuss this earlier. So ag um they would be in charge of C F T C and like what are the other areas of crypt? They would .

affect just a cftc. H .

okay.

if yeah if conver decides in the cftc and spend IT role, that authority would have them from the agriculture committee.

okay. And if republicans keep this take take the senate then yeah.

if republicans take the senate. Um john bosman is currently the ranking member from arkansas and he's worked closely with stab ino's office and in mental and discussions about how to regulate clipt o so he would he would likely um take over chairman I believe unless you know something I don't alex um you know this a growing number of senators on that committee that are in a john um you know these are you know more down die but um but you know there's a growing sort of interest in the senate. Um but haven't you have anything to at we think bosman may go somewhere.

I think it's most likely bosman en um as Chris mentioned, his staff has been working on critical issues not for quite some time. So this is this is a new to them and they they're excited to dig in. I I will say that um they may choose first to prioritize passing a farm bill because I was supposed to happen this year and did not and uh postman for markin saw he's got a bunch of farmers he represents and they've got to do one of the other things the act committee is supposed to do.

Okay, okay, so that but then I would only be a little delayed. That sounds like alright. So how about house? Eg.

so how eg we have G T thomson from pensylvania a who is the current chair? Uh he would likely stay as chair um his if sorry, if if republicans maintain control of the house current chair, current republican control G D. Thompson sticks around his staff has worked on these issues forever. Um one of the staffers, paul les ono, has been there since the previous chair.

Uh uh congress of and craft to want to like the original crypto mark structure, bills the digits commodity exchange to access like I don't know what twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen um so he's been they've been digin for a very, very long time um on the other side of the air. So if democrats take control, uh, as we mention before, seniority is typically what rules the day on chairman ships. And so David Scott is the democrats who is currently atop the committee in the ranking members slot.

He would potentially be chair. He's been chair before. He's quite close with like the the cms and sea bos and ISIS of the world of the big community, a drupal exchanges uh and a little bit less inclined towards crypto o. There is some question as to his health, whether he would take on this this task. And so I might go to a difference further dowdies a dem member and we could have new blood and new opinions and new options for creep down yeah and .

then I would say, you know David sky um in the agriculture committee obviously voted on the fit twenty one bill last summer and in the agriculture committee he allowed that vote to move by voice vote so that the members want in the democratic miners would have to go on record voting for IT or not but when IT did come up for a vote in the house manager services committing where he also said he voted against IT so um maybe at one of our our I like ideal folks but will have to you know kind of see who who is empower and did you know if he decides to to stick on.

okay. So then the next one that I think we mentioned with senate commerce um and remind us what what that how that could affect of the policy.

So senate commerce overseas like tech broadly um so when there's like facebook uh hearings or google hearings are what have you? It's typically over at senate n fts and collectibles kind of fall over there. They have A A really, really broad remit in the house. Energy and commerce also has kind of energy issues in the senate. IT has done separate committee. So a bit coin mining might be in energy and commerce, but IT might not be commerce regardless with a republican senate ted crews, whose currently in a tight race for real election and texas would be the the chair um he's made no secret about his a love for bitt coin and cyp to and it's important to his state so he I mean senate commerce is kind of sad on the sidelines for a very long time when IT comes to our issues, I would expect that to change if his chair they'll be, I think, very actively trying to carve out a ae for .

themselves and if he loses, then who might be the the person who the republican who would be in charge?

Well next in line is done soon so I could depend on and you know what soon is wanting to do with leadership and others and then and there that goes their Roger workers .

so yeah ah but workers over at I think ARM services and then you have dead Fisher, who's also in a tight race in the brasted too so IT IT could be a bigger question mark, but what I will say is if ted crews loses in texas and deb Fisher loses in nebraska, a republicans might not have control of the senator general. So we might be having a different conversation entirely. And ten crews, I think latest polling came out this morning, put him there was new york times. I think I put him up .

by five oh OK OK. So not that time.

Yeah, it's been it's been like one, two points. But yeah, he has been, I think in the in the race for his for his life for the first time and I think quite some time. And so as part of a broader, I think graphic and and party realignment in in texas.

okay, so okay, so type but not super day. So if the democrats take this thing, then who would be intercommuned?

I think that we continued to being rk while she's currently and be the chair of the committee. And what's her? He represents the data. washington.

Do you have any ecri po positions?

Nothing too strong that comes to mind .

any either direction.

You can be focused on privacy issues mostly. So privacy is like the big the big ticket I am that the commerce committee have been focused on lately. So it's actually an interesting hook to get into the committee and talk to them about crypt wish use because you can talk about your knowledge, proofs and the ability to a test the information without, I don't know, showing personally identifiable information OK. There's a lot of different kind of issue sets that they that are within their event.

Yeah, I I mean, I think that crypto generally has a lot of difference that different people, different political stripes can get interested in. Okay, how is energy and commerce if the republicans keep the house that who would be in charge of this? And what's or take on crp to .

so there's a current race for chair because catholic morse Rogers a whose the current chair a is retiring bob later from ohio and bread gothia from kentucy, I think or two of the ones who are are making a play for IT, neither have like really dug in. I think they've even like loosely involved on some of the black chain bills that um energy and commerce has uh looked at this this past year. But I think mostly kind of blank slates again like this is our industry has spent so much time in indeedy egg banking, house mental services and so on that um the other committees haven't had quite as much love. But I would expect that to change as more members are interested and excited to dig in to this.

okay. And of the democrats take the house then .

Frank pallone, who is the current ranking member, I think would would stay as you say, onest chair .

and as he pro or antiqua or does he have a estan sancy pto?

I don't think he's been like wrapping his arms around IT, but I don't think he's been very aggressively anti again, it's it's one of those issues that he just hasn't come up that much on on the committee. So most the members have been taken really aggressive points of view when we are another. Where is the other? Might be the case of housing services.

But this coming goes back to, as you know, new members are getting elected and crypt or was supportive of their campaigns and they are more educated on IT. We're going to start seeing this sort of broader interest across some of these other committees. And you know even the lobbying resources and washington have grown tremendously in the past two years.

Private of that or just was in time to get to all five and offices. And that changed like we were very organized as an industry. Now we're making sure we're doing outreach to all of the offices um because, you know, these bills aren't getting to the stage where they're having votes. And so it's one of the reasons why the political work is going on with the election cycle is going to be really helpful for next congress.

okay. So last two committees would be senate finance. If republicans take the senate, then who would be in charge?

So if a public can take the senate is going to be mick crapo who was the his from idaho he was the banking committee chair is this was two congress is ago before pat to me his staff has been leaning in uh so he in the the current chair so he's currently ranking member the current chair democrat rn widen who has been a long time ally of the the industry and has also been just kind of A A long time interested party in like the evolution of the internet and freedom to the kind of code teach and so on.

Uh both of them last summer released a joints uh request for information for the crypto tax issues. So we've had meetings with both of their staff. S they're both super interested in dug in and like really want to understand this is he said so that they don't when there's A A tax bill next year, they don't run into what's a the senate ran into back in twenty twenty one with infrastructure bill when ah there is literally an argument about definitions of consensus mechanisms on the the senate floor and held up the signature.

Like achievement of the bad administration. So the'd like to not do that again. So both sides have decided to to learn their lesson and get the info they need.

well. And why did has been really good to? And getting to note, the crypto community came out to consensus this year. And I mean, he's he's really like taking an interest in this. And so um so yeah, we're not going to see a repeat, as so saying of three years ago with infrastructure.

okay. So that when that sounds like no matter which parties in charge, there will be kind of an advocate for crypto on and and then the last one would be house ways and means committee.

Yeah this is when where i'm not sure at this stage there is a major different side. The way I don't know, alex, um you know we currently have Jason Smith on the republican side deal on the democratic side. This is a committee that his hungry has not engaged. And even in some of our early meetings, there are still a very basic level. But I think this is one rather is like a huge opportunity um for for members of congress to step up for regardless of which parties in charge.

Yeah I I agree there's a bunch of down die members who have done a ton David riker for marijuana who is currently like a relate tight race. He was actually one of the original cofounder of the blockchain caucus, catti from upstate new york.

Uh her staff is really terrific and struggling on bunch of these issues uh, drew ferguson was unfortunate retiring uh has introduced uh some staking tax legislation but the chair in the ranking member suggestion smith, the chair from missouri, his staff, like they've been there very, very long time, super experienced, have started recently to dig more into cyp tos. They've realized that like this isn't going away and we need to learn more about IT IT also become, I think, more politically silence for house republicans to be proscription. And so they started to sit up and take notice and say, okay, well, maybe we should start being productive.

So there theyve crafted a like, a financial innovation working group to plan for next congress if they maintain control. And crp, kind of a subset of that I think rone's is uh is is sharing that are on the democrats side. So racing neal for massage, tes he's to you got to be kind of careful with massachuset because obviously tes was with Warren homestay.

Um his kind of a he might be the of the the massachusets delegation. He's kind of bit around for quite some time. He's got very experience.

Ed staff uh some of the staff used to work in the I R S. And so they built with a broken tax role from the other side of of the equation. But again, like a lot of this, as Christian said, this kind of a blank slate. So it's a huge um opportunity for the industry to get in and and educate and then also h get some of our allies on to the committee and and help them be productive and successful.

okay. And that one um you know I think as we mentioned earlier, has an impact on tax policy. And I just wondered, everybody always talks about like stable coins and market structure, but is there some kind of potential cyp to tax legislation that maybe the works?

yeah. So I would say less crypto tax legislation and more like a bunch of discrete issues that could get factored into an overall tax package. So we're all familiar with the the broken role for twenty twenty one that we've talked about.

We're waiting for anything. The second chance of implementation, real finalization this year, there could be adjustments to that. They get factored in. You could have something like to minimize, which is set a threshold below which like use of crypto in payments isn't a taxable event. So if you wanted to buy or isn't like a capital games, if you wanted to buy a coffee with bit coin, for example, you don't want to have to pay capital gains on that.

There's there's a few things around like realization if you stick or on sticking out asset and get like a liquid staking token in return, is that an asset realization event? Or is that just kind of a receipt for equivalent value if you bridge from one network to another? Uh, IT could be the same exact asset that's just on a different chain and you've locked one up on a smart contract on one and released on another.

Is that a taxable events? Because you've reliques h control on the wine, but you've got the same thing on another. And so clarifying a few of those things around the edges are are quite small and won't have any sort of like revenue hit. But for the purposes of like scoring a tax package, but could be like quite impactful from just like general clarity for entrepreneurs to be able to Operate OK.

And I would say generally.

it's really, really hard for these individual issues to be enacted into law as like a one off thing. What happens is they tend to open up tax issues into one big bill and they have to make all the math add up, uh and they do at all as once. So these are issues where you're never just going to get like the mini us bill, like pass through the house in the senate and signed in a lot.

You have to have tax specific legal vehicle for those things to go on because it's just politically impossible to move them as as one ops. And so um so I think it's gonna, you know a huge opportunity and and we also want to make sure there aren't uh you know so did the visions that are introduced that for the disadvantaged, rick, do in a way that that doesn't make sense. And so I even even just being able to play defense and that friend is gonna important.

Yeah, there's there's two ways too. I think that tax could play out next year. One is if we have split congress.

So you have one party that controls the White house. You have republicans control the senate, and you have either republicans are dance who control the house. Um you're going to have some horse trading. You're gone to have, uh, things get in, things get out. But ultimately, it's going to be like a bigger a piece of compromise legislation.

If republicans have a try effect and locks what something that's called budget reconciliation with is for budgetary provisions, either like revenue or or spending, you can pass that out of the house, and IT allows you to pass that through the senate on only a fifty one vote thresh hold, instead of the typical sixty boat threshold that required to enact any legislation. So if you're republicans, you have fifty one seats in the senate, or you have the White house plus fifty, then you can do a party line vote for that tax package all the way through to the president's death, which is what they did back in twenty seventeen. So that kind of the other thing that we're we're waiting to see what happens in, in a week and a half, is budget reconciliation going to be possible? Or are we doing this kind of big by parties in horse trading exercise that is going to be a little bit more complicated.

okay. So now um I do want to cover um some of the chairs that are going to be most important of the different agencies for crapo. Um so in a trump president, see who do you think he could potentially name as A C C. chair?

I think the important thing is it's not gary gangs ler, that's the most important thing.

But but are there there is no names being batted about.

I mean, there's there's a bunch of dams that have been reported in the press, T, V, T. Whether or any of those have have any credence, some more in crypto, some more conditional finance. I I think generally speaking, or republicans in the last four years, conservative financial regulatory orthodoxy has turned in towards kind of procris pt o.

So more or less, any republican a point you're gonna get is going to have a more, I think, nuance and less than tagish view towards the industry, not to mention the fact that, uh, trump has really embraced cyp to. And he said he wants to make amErica the crypto capital of the world and A A big coin, super power. So if that's kind of that the tone is being set at the top, you're not going to have someone going to totally rogue and and not kind of marching in line on the other side of the isle of if Harris wins.

Um it's a little bit more of an open a question as a chair against later has two more years on his term um IT goes through the end of twenty twenty six that said, it's possible for a president to not necessary fire but kind of remark so Harris could theoretically appoint a different commissioner as chair and gary, uh just a Normal run of the mill chair for the commissioner er for the remainder of his time. And there's other ways too that presence can try and get them them out of there. They could, I know, name gary ambassage to the U K, for instance. So h no longer be the effects effects the case.

Okay, but so of the different contenders under trump, are any of these names potentially procreate to like paul accs, heave tarbert, john Chris, john Carlos? Well, obviously he he's clipped to dad Robert Stevens and well, hezion urse is, but I I don't know yeah .

short less that you just went through I had down .

gallaga the last one .

all of them would have a propter poster if and confirmed that would be I think that absolutely massive upgrade um for for any of those named that you listened .

okay um and what about cftc chair?

I think C F T C is is a little bit less clear. A the S C C, everyone's been spending all of their time thinking about, obviously because because gary is kind of the clear and present danger. If Harris takes over, uh he could install a new chair, current chair benton could stay on.

I think to some extent his ability to legacy d has been somewhat constrained by the fact that games slr is on the other side of the equation. So I mean, he's appeared before senator a bunch of times. He's actually old staffer of debby stabbing of the current ag committee chair. So he has wanted to expand the s or the C F T C remit over crypto and that could be a good outcome if games iller is no longer the S C C, but benami still there if trump wins.

Um I think there's a bunch of different names out there that the two currents republican commissioners, commissioner's uh summer passenger she's got some really terrific descent from some of the recent uh C F T C actions against script and then commissioner FM was actually just at a black and association event uh, last monday in new york that I was with with Chris and he was really terrific and chair the global market advisory council that has a bunch of. Kind of crypto industry folks on IT. So both would be great options. There might be other private sector options to um who are under consideration. Ultimately, the the whole transition process is a very, very uh kind of closed in one because um I mean everyone's jostling for for advantage and wants to get these jobs because they're they're really great, important to consequential jobs.

sorry. So then um two more that I want to cover our treasury. Who do you think the different potential presidential candidates may might choose for that?

No, I think on Harris um you know we could see the secretary say around, but the name that I hear most often in wiley oi amo being next in line his deputy treasury secretary um that's probably when I could see being switched out because you know yelling has served for a long time um and and should be a priority but of those other was be part .

of alex on that this yeah there is supporting about former M X CEO and current general catalyst chairman and tension o and I mean like he was that A M xi understands payments, I I he's going to be more pro business um then maybe some of the current more warm as regulators, but he might have a very strong point of view about uh how crypto should look when it's involved in payments. Um that's a general catalyst bunch of cyp to investments.

So who knows on the republican side, there's there's been kind of a bunch names that have been uh, reported senator bill hagerty is is one of them. He's done a lot for the industry. Uh helps host that that a crypt round table at bitcoin nash fill he's a senator from tennessee and has been kind of the can do IT to the thumb bad men from the cypher industry or the trump uh campaign um Scott basins uh from millennium uh who threw a huge minister for trump earlier this year has been where the names that turn around bob light heizer who was U.

S. Trade representative and then howlett who is currently chairing a trump transition. And I mean Howard has made no secret about how much he love his bitcoin.

He has a pretty fire his beach at bitcoin nash fill about IT canter fitz jerold is one of the first. They they think big finance houses that really dug into crypto set up a bitcoin lending desk. They manage, uh, ted's backing the reserves. So there is no shortage of good options. And I think IT just remains to be seen what who president trumps the most actual with.

okay. And then federal reserve under the two different presidents.

You know, I really didn't know on that one.

Kindly haven't looked at the federal serve quite as much just because Powell has, I think, been husband fine. It's it's mostly been a Michael bar. I think the vice cheering for supervision who's been a little bit less possibly inclined towards script. That one is a little bit moral pic.

Um and and Frankly, I think the banks will have a much sharper point of view on who gets into those rules given all of the kind of that the huge tug of work currently of our capital standards, the federal reserve come into play. If stable coin issuance is regulated by the federal reserve, if stable insurance is regulated by maybe the occ, which does bank chattering, then this could be a different conversation. Unclear at the moment.

I think who by president Harris with a pointed president trump, brian Brooks, was was the the chair last go around and granted encourage a bank charter in the the winning days of of the trump adman. So by any account, I I think there would be probably more possibly disposed control over there and that the fd I C, I think IT really remains to be seen because right now Christian gold Smith marrow is one of the current C F T C commissioners is up to um lead the fd I C. Her nomination is currently uh but before the senate, if he gets confirmed before the end of this year, then sh'll be chair.

If she's not, then trumper have an opportunity to to name one of his own. Or if or if it's Harris SHE might choose to go with Christie goal Smith ramiro you might choose to go with with someone else entirely. So that wants a little bit less clear.

And Christy golspie for marrow is not post positively inclined toward scripta right?

That's correct. Yeah I I will say more than other anti crypto uh, regulators shoes at least uh, displayed an openness to learning and taking meetings and her, the technology advisory committee chairs over ads. The the C, F, T C released a report on D Y that kind of described ed, the process of essentialize ation and some frameworks about how to potentially regulate IT. So she's open to learning, which is a lot more than I can say about some of the other folks in the government. So never say never.

okay. Well, last question before we close out. So obviously, as people can tell, um it's a little bit of a crap suit and exactly what's going to happen. Obviously um the house in the presence here are probably more up in the air than the senate but still been that obviously this race, who knows um but what would you say are the chances for crypt legislation in the lame duck?

I think the lame duck is pretty low. Odds on potentially stable coin is on the table. Um you know lame duck can user, I wanted to wait the very, very active where a whole bunch things get negotiated and and lumped into a big package and vote IT out altogether or the the opposite. They decide to do the absolute very minimum in in go home early. But I do think sample point is on the table for this year in market structure is something that will most likely get done uh.

in the next congress yeah as we mention uh, gern mcinnes retiring. So he is very much in legacy mode and I think he'd love to get some Crystal legislation. And so he and ranking member waters have been, I think, at ninety percent on stable coin legislation agreement.

The questions what happens over in the senate. So say you want to attach this to the national defense authorization act, which will usually sales through its a bus past piece of legislation that goes through the end of foams every year. What happens over the senate is the big question, mark. So that's why it's important that senator hagi introduced his own stable point bill because that gives like a negotiating anchor for for senate republicans. Um so I agree with person, I think odds over all allow, but if anything happens, it's gonna stable points.

Actually, there's one another question that I just some of which is obviously kind of like stable coin market structure are sort of overdo as a pieces of legislation that the industry has been warning. But after that, are there other things or is IT really just you know, those would be good enough and then the cypher industry doesn't need more legislation? Or yeah.

I think there's a good question. I so those are two big ones and in less, they are overdue. yes. But if you think about stable coin legislation, those discussions started little limber.

And twenty nine, most legislation, especially something that comprehensive and you like this, take somewhere between seven and ten years. Like these things don't happen quickly and they don't happen overnight. So you know, IT sound like we're behind on this, but we did IT is time for us to to start cutting something enacted into law.

I do think you know that the tax issues we discussed earlier that would be helpful to do legislatively. Um I think you know there's a lot of interest around illicit finance and most of the bills we've seen on that would do more harm than good. I also think goes a really good chance that whatever happens with market structure that the def I question is pushed to later.

And so you know depending on how that market developed, there may be gap um uh you know that need to be filled with congress. But I I think is an open question of if we're going to need something uh you know comprehensive for defier or not. They think of an add depend on how .

the the market develops. Okay, all right, well, you guys, this has been such a fantastic conversation. Working people learn more about each of you in your work.

Yeah, all i'll start, you can, uh, visit us at the blockchain association dot or go or follow us on twitter, red at black team A S S I um yeah. We represent about hundred companies in this space and IT is just been really remarkable to see how sophisticated the industry has become. Mind, if you're not a part of that, you should reach out and and gave out of the effort and for us.

uh, paradise dot X, Y Z, all of our policy writing are there. And i'm just at Alexander grip on twitter. I think the last thing I would leave our listeners with, because the elections in basically a week and a half is on election night what i'm going to be watching is one senate control.

So montana, as we discuss an ohio, montana for control of the senate, ohio decypher heavy impact we wanted to have in ohio for the presidential, I think everything's going to come down to pennsylvanians. So we'll see how all the other swing states a manifest, but pensylvania might not know the winner until saturday, but that is gonna down to to pennsylvania. And then for the house of the house, control will probably run through new york and california.

So in combat, republicans in york, like Michael ller and seventeenth district or mark moon ara in nineteen in california, David valida in the twenty seconds, microsys in the twenty seventh, if they are winning, republicans are likely hanging on to the house. If they're losing deals, probably take IT. So that's how i'm kind of thinking through this. But obviously, well, we'll see what IT happens .

and what we can to have. Okay, great. Well, it's been a pleasure having you both on and change.

Thanks for of us. thanks.

Thanks so much for joining us today.

To learn more about Christian and alex and these upcoming ris, check out the showers for this episode unchanged as produced me, Laura, of a promp paltered, one of IT making gave us pom gim darm ark korea. Thanks for listening.

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