Bitcoin Is Just for Libertarians, Right? Two Progressives Disagree - Ep. 698
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I don't think that you know, having trump represent us as bit coiner ers or J D. Vance representing us as bit coiner ers makes IT seem like approach able or Normal or not a scm or not weird. And so I just don't think it's just from an educational point of view. I don't think that that's a good look for us.

Everyone not going to unchained. You're no hay resource for all things. Cypher and your host Lauran auther of the cypher pions. I started covering crypt to nine years ago, and as a senior, enduro forms was the first meta meter porter to cover a cypher to crc y full time. This is the september third, twenty twenty four episode of unchained. If you're envisioning ways to make an impact on transforming global system through blogg chain, the stolen were ready in twenty twenty four conferences for you get fifty dollars off your ticket now at median dot Stellar dot org by using the code unchained pod.

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Here to discuss our trade. Walsh, host of the progressive bits inner podcast, and Jason mirror, author of a progressive case for bitcoin. Welcome train. Jason.

Thank you. Thank you.

Tray one that we start with you. How did you become a bit coiner? Oh.

good question. I was early twenty twenty one. So i'm a millennial. My background is in non profits as well, not necessarily of a very wealthy individual coming into this into the space and student loan dead and all these very practical things.

You know, I had some stocks and investments and things like that. And like, know how much longer do I want to keep doing that? Is that going to equal a retirement? All these other things.

And then I started hearing a little bit about bitcoin. And IT sounded interesting to me. At first I heard about kind of cyp to in general.

And then I started learning more specifically about bitcoins, like unique use cases, especially human human rights, permissionless, censorship, resistance. I go, this is much more than just an investment or something for me to hold. Is the speculative asset or this not even a retirement? It's all of those things.

Yes, IT was so much more as this go. Lobo money. And in my background and in nonprofits and social justice advocacy and all these other things from from training in my career, got me really, really interested in hearing from folks like alex club scene from hughs foundation. Once that kind of clicks for me, that's what i'd say. I probably became A A big corner, if you want to say, in that way.

And Jason, what about you?

yeah. So I was introduced to bitcoin originally by my best friend, who was, i'd like to say, the smartest st person that I know. He's also the weirdest person that I know. And I love him very much um and he's say, hey, you should check out bitcoin.

Um and at the time, I don't think either one of us really knew much about IT apart from the fact that I was like a spectacle asset, right? The number might go up, but i'm a math teacher by trade. You know, i've been teaching a college and high school math for about twenty years.

So as soon as I bought, you know, twenty dollars with a bitcoin, I had this like rush of panic, like, oh, no, if I lose that twenty dollars, i'm gonna just have to have a awkward conversation with my wife. So I SAT down and started to research big points. So I understood how IT worked.

And I did that primarily through the mathematics, computer science lens, try to sort of understand how that works and and why IT works, and pretty much go through all of the the different kind of fun scenarios, like world for breaks. Why does IT always work that kind of thing. So I can just answer questions if they came up.

And I was pretty shortly after that, that I realized that as I was trying to explain bit going to my friends and ah I got this passion for IT because I could understand you know most of the mathematics and most of the computer science behind IT um started talking to people that I really care about and they had these other preconceptions about bitcoin that we're more cultural and that's how I got down this path of saying, well, I wanted you to give a resource to people that I care about so they can learn about big point with maybe that speaks of language that they speaks. That's why I chose to write a progresses case for bitcoin because estray said, there's a lot of social justice, there's a lot of transparency, there's a lot of ways that bit intersect with people who are doing really good work in the world. And I wanted to showcase those kinds of things as opposed to maybe some of the the twitter meme culture war stuff that that's already out there.

And so you you both you know identify as progressives and you know i'm sure most people know that traditionally in terms of any politics that that quite might align itself with, its more like along a laboratory. But so can you both describe for me kind of what you think progressivism is or how you to find IT personally like what that means to you?

Yeah, I can kick things off. It's a very, very word, right? I'm sure many people have done this. You if you you type in progressive or progressive and you get the wikipedia page that tells you a deep history of so many different things.

And I think you know point of the podcast in my articulation with IT originally because when I came in in twenty twenty one, I saw a lot of education and podcast content and media content on big coin that was very, very like libertarian tailored. And and this isn't necessarily here to bash of liberal talians or anything like that. I was more just me coming from the left and progressive.

I'm in new england, in boston area. My friends, my coworkers, all of this IT just didn't seem to resonate with me. There is a lot of things that we're discussed that had little to do with bitcoin and more about a certain political ideology or religious ideology or family ideology or something like that, right there wasn't resonating with me.

And I kept thinking myself, what does this have to do with big coin? So for me, it's more about there wasn't as much content that was focus on just what bick in is and also appealing to people. I made IT seem like you had to be x to be into into bick in right, which is just far from the truth, right, is an open source protocol. You know, you don't have to have any sort of ideology to utilize bitcoin.

Now with that said, I think there are a lot of things within progressive VISA where the progressives care about, which I think the majority of progressives would probably start with saying they're socially liberal, right? They care a lot, a lot about social values like equity driven things, social justice they care about, equality they care about like women's health issues like all of these other things, right? And it's not that, that necessarily has to match with big one.

There are so many things within bitcoin we talk about financial inclusion, and that's a huge topic for progressives like a mistrust of banks and wall street and corporations and all of these other things where libertarians might have more of a distrust of the government, right? There's kind of different dish trust of authority, italian aspects of our world that we live in from both political spectrum. S progressives are much more on the dish trust of major corporations, of big banks, of these things.

So I try to talk about big one way of, like you don't have to trust these entities, the importance of things like self custody, the importance of things like anybody can get into bacon, you don't need a bank account, or these like predatory loans that have affected like black americans, that have affected marginalized communities, that doesn't apply in back in its permissions onless. If you can enter two day with one sato shi, which is, you know what one tempt of a penny here, something like that, right? So for me it's all about financial inclusion and that's how I approach talking to progressives about death.

But in terms of the definition of progressive is a me a lot of IT is just forward thinking, progressing faced, focused on science, focused on reason, um things like that and less about what I get to have gotten into arguments with focus about before about h progressive is only one as much central authority and focus as possible as not necessarily true. A lot of has focus really don't know how our global financial system works, don't know how energy markets work in grids and things like that when you talk about proof working mining with the coins. So a lot of IT as education, but a lot of is just appealing to their their social values and things they care about, which are typically rooted in social justice.

Yeah, I think tray gave a really good answer. And i'll just add, know there. There's a long history of people who consider themselves progressive or left leaning, who are totally OK standing up to authority, an or authority structures as a exit, straight to a trade mentioned you like large corporations or big business, uh, is, you know, many people feel like that's just as dangerous as a big government, right? And maybe even more so because there are more liable and efficient.

But I think there's also, you know, progressive people are willing to stand up and say, you know keep the regulations of a certain things, right? There's overlap between some liberals and some libertarians, right? Like the the entire legal marijuana industry in the united states was completely be banked.

And it's a yeah it's a fresh ing experience. People who are trying to do something as completely illegal and give medicine to people. And there's other examples too.

So I feel like there's there's a long history of people on the left being skeptical of, you know, large banks. We all kind of know the origins of you know thinking about bitcoin is rising from the ashes of the occupy movement. And you know what what is that all about? It's about financial inclusion.

It's about certain vectors within our society having too much power and authority over other people. And bitcoin is is a resistance way to stand up to those those people in charging in authority and the sort of character that well liberals just want bigger government um and therefore I don't need to debate you and I already made all my decisions. Is really is much more dynamic and layer than that.

And I feel like that kind IT does overlap well with people who need to resist authority however IT comes. Um and so you know in terms of like where does this progressive left of center liberal ideology line up a big point. IT was a natural fit me I had made total sense.

And then I was shocked to to learn at the very beginning of my journey that I was in the really vast minority people, at least in the bitcoin space, are who you see online talking about IT and the values that they project onto bit coin didn't match my own. And as a as a professional educator, I know that people aren't going to learn something that's really complicated and um difficult to understand if they don't feel comfortable in the space, there's just no way. So learn about big coin if you're feel ah if you feel like you're not welcome or that the things that people are saying about maybe you is an individual or things that you care about are are grading against your sense of self.

Uh, there's no way that you can learn something as complicated and a bitcoin. So I was really one of the main moderations for me. Just how do I teach people and knowing that in order to teach people about this, they need to feel comfortable in the space.

And so if you were to like, let's say that you would meet somebody who identifies as a progressive, but is skettles al that bitcoin a lines with their ideals, what are the points that you make to say actually no, bitcoin is an alignment with a progressive this view of the world?

Yeah, I think that happens a lot, right? I think that there's a lot of is especially going back a couple of years. I think it's got on a little bit Better. But the idea that, well, i'm just gonna miss bitcoin out of hand because a it's bad for the environment or b it's like only rich cypher broza and to IT and am not no, I don't think that category. So for me, the the number one key is to listen and meet a person where they are, right? Because I feel like no matter where you fall on the political spectrum, there are things in the world that you don't think are working properly or working for you or our problems.

And so if you actually listen to somebody and think about what what are, what are the problems that you see in the world, what would you like to see working Better? And you get to know that person a little bit, then you can come to tailor your message about bitcoin to, how does bitcoin actually address this, or potentially address this, right? Like bitcoin isn't this magic one, right? But if we work towards a solution, towards a problem, bitcoin might be a very good tool for that.

Um so you know there was uh a very classic example in my own life where a coworker or like sort of clutch paros m was like, oh my goodness, like it's boiling the oceans and there was no amount of conversation that I could have about the actual environmental impact or the benefits of bit point to the environment that I was going to venture. You already made up her mind about that, but when I talk about financial inclusion and global financial access and banking the unbanked and allowing women in afghanistan to like hold assets and actually like control their financial, that was something that click for her. Um and every person that I talk to is is kind of like a different kind of piece to the puzzle like well, what do you think is going on in the world that isn't right.

And bitcoin because IT IT is money and that is uh a new kind of money that has all of these different uh high quality attributes can be a tool towards working towards that. Um you know i'd like to be very clear. I think bitcoin as a new kind of money in the financial system is steps zero. We still actually require to require to do work to solve some of these problems, but that work gets easier if you have the Better tool in the money that we use.

And tray, what about you? What are arguments that you use to explain to progressives by bitcoins in line with their yes.

yeah, I I usually start off trying not to sound like a cult. I know sometimes he could be hard if if someone's really, it's not it's not just big coin or other cyp dos. It's you know people can have something that they're passionate about or some hobby or something where you want to just bat off everything, right?

There's so much behind IT coin that if if someone is starting at zero and then they learn about this thing, that is kind of wildly different because people think, okay, you money sepper from the state. Sounds a little weird. Never heard of that before, right? And just understand, we think so.

Starting very simple. I like starting very specific. Also, my my daily job is in nonprofits doing fundraising and development work. So I take a lot of that in terms of how do you articulate support for a cause. You start off with a specific story, you pull IT a heart string, or you focus on one thing.

You don't try to go from all of this data, all of these stories, all this overwhelming history, all IT wants all of this. What happened in one thousand nine hundred and seventy one, getting off the gold day. You don't start there.

Usually start with what Jason lude to, right? There's a story of this person in afghanistan of the human rights activist in toga. And I usually start of like, okay, you might not need IT, right?

Especially for in the U. S. We have paypal, we have venda, we have all these things.

You have A A safe bank account, you can move banks. So you can, you know all of these things. We have fdc. We have so much going on in terms of financial privilege in the united states, not everyone, but but a lot of people compared to lebanon, let's say.

So you focus on, you know, do you think that the bitcoin should exist for those that want to use IT, right? And you kind of start there. And it's often I was talking with the friend once about the human rights england, and I was talking so much about that they knew, I dit a pocket, all of this stuff.

And then you get back to me one day. He, okay, you know, I get the point of, like, why I should exist. That's that's great. I'm here for but like, how does IT work? Okay, interesting.

So then I had to flip IT and start going into, like, what is IT backed by? Is IT backed by not? You know, all of these things of the nutzen involves of how IT actually worked.

Because I hit so hard. The point of human rights and why actually exist? Because they were so much out there. But lesson less, so much food against, like the environmental impacts, the OK age, just for criminals and terrorists in axes. So I focused heavily on that with friends and with people just through our work with the podcast. And progressed was in general, because of my we can get through that, okay, then we can get into how does IT work for those that are interested in things like that.

And so I know you to both consider yourself big coin nars. And hopefully this isn't too strong of a word, but that seems to me that you kind of sun the wider world of cyp to such as like a theory um salona stable coins defy dows N F T mean coins um and I wondered if you had an opinion on whether or not the rest of crypto al al lines with progressive ideals or not.

I mean, i'll go we going to cancelled Laura for this for this meeting. You know I think I tried to be fair, right? Like I don't try to be toxic. I I understand that everybody's on their own journey and and if they find value in different things and I do that, that's fine.

But I for me ultimately, like I do see the value of bitcoin as a new money, as a use of a blockchain that makes sense to me, as a way that gives freedom and independence and sovereign to all people of the world and and for me, quite simply, like everything else that you just mentioned, maybe there's really positive good use cases there that I don't understand. But for me, it's a really is a marketing issue. It's hard for me to get around to the people that I need to understand about bitcoin.

If the first conversation is always like, well, what about I T X? What about this scam? What about this fraud um and I feel like it's just IT would you know like we can wish for the world we would love to see like I would be much easier to sell bit point to people and have them understand the value if they didn't have to wait through all of these other things like thousands and thousands and thousands of other things.

And a lot of the headlines there are are not positive. So I don't i'm not gonna univerSally say that there is no value in cryed besides bitcoin. Um there might be interesting projects.

Um and of course, whenever I say that my twitter risk comments would have you tried out this? Got X, Y, Z? Have you tried this? Have you tried this?

Um so i'm not saying that there is no use at all um but I do think that as a marketing tool like IT, IT makes IT harder to sell bitcoin. And then all of a sudden you have all of these negative things. So maybe there's crypto, thanks.

There's tokens, there's N F T. There's things out there that that do online with progressive ideals. I don't think they do so as permanently and as robust as bitcoin does.

Um and and IT really is educator and kind of IT makes IT difficult for me to explain the value of bitcoin when people are more focused on unlike what we are all clipped out, right? So I don't try to be mean anybody. I'm not a maximum st in the terms of like being toxic towards people.

Um i'm willing to hear uh conversations, but my focus is primarily bitcoin. I'm bitcoin first. I'm i'm personally i'm bitcoin only and I just want to get people on board uh, because the current financial system that we have is broken. Um and that doesn't mean that I can absolutely say there's no value elsewhere in the space, but I just would like to focus on on bitcoin and tray.

What about you?

Yeah I would agree with that. I think to the question I usually half fox is what is the what is the purpose or what is the end goal? right? So for me, like bitcoin is a tool, it's not the end in and of itself to to worship at the alter or a bitcoin and things like this, right, that can sound like that online or whatever cyp to community, right, that we've seen come and go or the ones that still.

Stick around. So for me, my focus has been on sound money, Better money and in dealing with the complications and paradoxes of what sound money standard looks like in our world in those things. And and most of not all cypher projects just aren't that. So for me, it's just kind of separating that.

And not to say because there are some like i'm not saying that I think a lot of the c action against certain cyp dose and things like this has been very overreaching like i'm not one of those big winners that's like, okay, rule against that but not against my thing that I like, you know I mean and we'll get into the the differences as the years go on and play out. But I am also a bit of a freedom maximum st in terms of like if people want to be interested and engage with those other things, they should be free to. I do think the landscape of cyp du, there are quite a lot of scams that have come and gone, right, that I think education should be put out there on that.

But i'm not going to say that all cyp to projects or scams because I don't surely believe that. I just think they're different things in different use cases. My focus is Better money, and I don't think there's any other curb to a project or project out there that has a Better and more secure money based in monetary protocol, then bitcoin.

So that is my exclusive focus. I try to be a little bit knowledge able just in crypto because you have certain people engaged. And I do think there's a kind of a rich leftist st community in certain crypto projects that i've interacted with and not tried to come out from a you're all wrong, this project sucks type think as I I understand some of the different problem, especially some that are focused on on social justice, are certain thousand and things like that.

I'm kind of a little bit knowledge able, but it's also like I just don't know enough about certain projects. But what I what I do feel comfortable and knowledgeable of is that bitcoin is the best money and in kind of money standard and the most desensitized and secure in terms of that. So for me, it's just separating and saying that they're different rather than taking the approach that their scams.

You all should be imprisons. There's something like that, right? Some people should be. And they have been through throughout, throughout history with different scams and things like that.

But back to Jason's point, IT doesn't make IT a little tRicky with with education in terms of that. And there are a lot of scans in the landscape but not all of them. March camp, I guess it's three standard.

Um well, so you've been speaking a little bit about how you come across a lot of misconceptions around backhoe, especially for people who among the people who are similarly minded to you politically. So what are some of the most common misconceptions who have come across from your own flic progressives and yeah and how do you counter that yeah .

I think a number of one still remains and and husband a while the environmental impact. And I feel like a lot of people on the left, right and and I count myself in that group, especially before, you know, I really started learning about bitcoin deeply. You you feel like, well, if I learned something is bad for the environment, then I can dismiss IT out of hand.

I can also pat myself on the back because i've done a good thing by saying something bad about something that is like energy wasteful, right? Like there there's a little bit of russia, Sarah, on in when you like, right? Like I did the right thing. Like I made somebody feel bad about using energy, and I feel like that's a really complicated, difficult thing to educate somebody on because like how energy grids work and how energy works in general and what like what is A A bitcoin miner's role in that, for example, is really a complex right.

And so it's not just like a bumper sticker where like the the fun that is thrown at us is a bumper sticker, uh, it's like, well, it's bad for the environment and that's all most people really have to hear before they just dismiss IT and don't consider IT again. That was my first reaction of the guy who tried to orange build me. Like, I thought you were an environmental zoo like you like this happy dippy do who loves the trees and stuff?

Like why are you in a bit on and then IT IT just takes education. So I feel like that that's the number one thing I do feel like you know some people who have spent a little bit of time thinking about IT. Um so while you're try overthrow the government or something like that, right? So like is a more I guess, that at least a little bit more of interesting conversation to have, but I think those are the most common things.

And then apart from I mean, just going back to the the last point, like when the F T X scandal broke, like, you know I people coming up to me saying, like, well, I heard the president of bitcoin just got through in jail. You know I mean, like so like there's just like people who really don't understand how the industry works, right? So I feel like those are the big things are just a complete lack of awareness of how the the system works to begin with.

And then those very specific full points that yeah get tired some. But remember, like even though it's the hundred time you're having the conversation and IT might be the first or second time they're having that conversation. So have to keep an open mind and meet them where they are.

And so I do think there are a lot of people in dc who listen to this show. And so you kind of kind of loss over like what arguments you would actually make. But i'd like you to act as if we are people who are sceptical. So how do you persuade somebody that the environmental impact is in bad or that bitcoin isn't going to overthrow the government?

try. Do you want to start? Do you want try? Or should I .

keep on when you go at the environment .

of point? Keep him. I can japan. And so I I think the first thing that is important is to distribute yourself with the notion that using energy is bad um you know we use all over the place for lot of good things to, and nobody y's complaining about like incubators and hospitals using a lot of energy, right? So just to understand the use case is important and all of the things that we've been mentioned in financial conclusion and and banking, the on bank and all of that stuff is actually pretty good use case one, two, all energy isn't sort of you know, they created equal, right? Like the energy is produced that is very specific time at a very specific location and can't really be transported.

And what bitcoin allows us to do is to take some of the renewable energy that a lot of progressive people would like to see that isn't really financially viable, uh, because it's in a location and being generated, you know whether the sign is shining or the wind is blowing at, at a time in a place where I can't really be used by a popular so what biton can do is incentivize to build out of that sort of be a bridge between, uh, the creation of that renewable energy and a demand on the other side for IT. And then also understanding that you bitcoin miners are completely location agnostic, so they're using wasted energy like they are. A lot of big coin miners are using or trying to use energy that would have been completely wasted otherwise, right, just thrown into the ground and not use, but biton miners can step interduce that they can also um turn their completely um uh responsive within a moment's notice to demand from the rest of the grid.

So if we are overbuilding solar and wind and other renewable sources, energy, hydro and and things like that, and we're creating more energy than we need, then the bitcoin miners concept in and actually supplement and pay for that electricity in ways that helps the the the generator is the energy. But if there is a demand for that energy, they can turn off immediately and actually give energy back to the grid that they don't need to take on in that moment. So it's a lot more complicated than that.

You know, it's the longest chapter in my book because it's such an important piece of of fun and and rightly so. I think it's really it's actually a very important thing to ask, like what is the environmental impact. But the the using stranded and wasted energy, building out renewable energy and being completely demand responsive Better than any other industry on the planet are all important pieces of that energy piece. And I feel I just need to encourage people to keep learning about how the energy is produced or transmitted in use.

Yeah and to add to the envionmental piece, kind of a specific example that jayson was mentioning as the project, which is a captain that Operates and in kenya through out different parts of african and they are continuing to expand that I think a lot of IT is just education that to expand renewable energy projects that expand electricity around the world, which a lot of people want to do, is one of the best ways to come back poverty is to give people electricity.

You have to have a way to to pay for that and afford that, right? It's not like a we need to just do this. okay? How is that sustainably funded? Because someone is going to need to get paid, whether it's the contractor is the electricity company, the people building these little micro grids IT costs money, whether that's government investment or private.

But also, when we're at an age where government debt is ridiculously high in most places, including the us, the answer can always just be the government needs to build this project with no way to find IT or no way to sustain IT, right? That's something that so this is a way to sustainably, financially and literally sustainable energy grow these projects. So for a grid less for this, instead go to a remote village that has a very, very small uh, need for electricity.

So of times, companies won't go out and do this because just just not worth that to actually build the the the equipment that's needed to provide electricity. There's not enough demand for these this village of fifty, two hundred people. But with bitcoin, they can use that the village will use twenty percent of that energy with bitcoin miners will use the other eighty percent and actually makes IT profitable.

And it's still ridiculously cheap energy. It's ridiculously cheap for folks to actually uh, run refrigerators in their homes and lights at night and cooking in all of these other thing. So bitcoin miners are actually a way that they can sustainably roll out electricity throughout africa and build kind of energy.

So it's these really, really cool things that on the surface. IT doesn't make much sense if just say bitcoin in helps electrify africa. So okay, you leave give some specifics here.

Those are projects that we've been a short film and all these other things is really great. And also think, you know you mention dc and there's a lot of groups like biton policy, and so is probably number one down in dc. They are actually working with lawmakers and folks to explain a lot of the stuff.

But one of them is huge national security, the mix of national security and combat in crime. Because a lot of my friends will say it's either we you talk about the scamp's, which which you can say OK vickars of protocol and there might be companies or people that are scams that that's different. So separating the difference is actually fairly easy mentioning that the tougher part a little bit is, is talking about crime and that people can use bitcoin and can use crypto to facilties crime.

And I think you have to start with the acknowledged that crime has been using cash and U. S. Dollars for a very long time now. It's a facility criminal activity.

So you have to start off and say, what level of crime are we OK with, right? So if some people are just like we have to eliminate all about and that, that is impossible first. all.

Second of all, the bitcoin black chain is transparent and open, right? So it's actually really, really easy to track criminal activity through through bitcoin. There are a lot of ways that criminals and enterprises would actually mess up with, whether it's their privacy preserving tech or something like that.

IT makes IT a lot easier to track than cash in a lot of ways, right? So you have to compare IT, just like the energy use, like how much energy is bitcoin use compared to traditional banking. You have to compare and contrast to people.

And I think that's a really helpful tool. Went talking to people, so I say, okay, how much criminal activity does cash facility? What is actually a lot more than bitcoin then cyp do in general, but especially bitcoin because bitcoin is quite transparent in terms of the block chain.

So that's usually one that we kind of talk a lot about. And I know a lot of folks and dc are having a lot of concerns and questions gratefully so about how can how can russia get around sanctions, what about north korea? All of these things that are very active conversations happening. And I think there's a lot of arguments that we can say that actually this transparent blockchain is not a good use of a facilitating massive criminal Operations. Compare to after banking accounts, compared to cash, compared to all of these other things that I usually start with that one as well.

Are you soon a moment we're gona talk a little bit about how this is all become an election issue and how that plays into um you know what's going to happen this fall? But first, a quick word from the sponsors we make this show possible.

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Yeah that's a great question. Um sure. I I guess so good to consider her a progressive. I think there's a lot of ways that progressives in some of the focus the past decade has been virgin from, I think, the things that are very, very important.

So there are many different folks that can consume this is a progressive and IT conveniently to disagree with a lisbeth warn. And one of the things is, you know, from from the great financial crisis and in two thousand and eight to think a lizbeth warn was laser focused on consumer protections and did a lot of good things in terms of banking regulation. But I think her single issue of consumer protection has blinded her to the potential of our focus on on bitcoin. But but again, a legislation wise, you shouldn't be against crypto in the way that he is. And right now in dc, it's biton encysted to together and turn our digital assets in general that that policy.

I and I get why we're focusing on IT in that way, but I think a lizz warn is is focusing so much on consumer protection that is completely blinding her to the benefits and really fixated on one data piece that now was outdated about environmental concerns or fixated on what I just talked about where while criminals can use big coin, it's that's like point one percent of the transactions out of the ninety nine percent of law, biting Normal people using cypher for remitted payments and all of these other things. So hyper focusing on things, not in an analytical or research backways when this is a person who's a very, very educated law professor. And so these things are just, they don't match.

And the only way I can think of IT as just fok laser focusing on one thing in deciding that her cause that's her, her thing. I mean, even what was at last year saying she's going to build an anti crypt u army and making that the the focus when we've seen there are so many different projects and reports out on encrypted ownership. But now from the oko to project on bitcoin ownership, the largest category people most likely to own bitcoin, from this survey of about thirty three hundred people.

Apologies, troy cross, that IT should be about that number. Russia, very liberal, was the highest category of people who are likely to own bikini in terms of ownership of vick in cypher, IT spends the political spectrum and quite a bit with liberals and progressives. And perhaps that could be little bit around urban city centers in new york city, boston and cisco, places like this.

But in general, people have kind of moved on with with bitcoin and cropt. And I think my frustration lies in progressives talk about financial inclusion, talk about the working in middle class. Inflation has just affected everyone.

IT continues to be harder and harder to afford things. Young people, a millennial and gen. Z. I have taken that into their own hands to go into bitcoin, crypto stocks, whatever the case, because politicians and governments have not been making IT easier for folks to actually afford daily living.

And so lives with warn, not doing due diligence in terms of, I think, helping things be more affordable for folks. And then also say, i'm also gonna against you're off rap to help you actually get ahead in life or to build a retirement is just a double with me that I really can't stand by anymore. And so I think i'm really hoping the senator makes some sort of pivoted some point I mean, of Jamie diamond can perhaps a lose with warn can but i'm not hold out too much hope right now. So I don't think she's being very progressive these days in terms of that and is very blinded on consumer protection. I must protect people from the big bad buggy man of crypto and and it's it's kind of ridiculous and everyone knows that .

at this point yeah and not i'll sad to that because you know i'm in connected IT so i'm not a constituent of IT was but warrant but I I am next door and I I just think that the easiest way to explain IT to attack on the what tray said, which is like, well, she's hyper focus on consumer protection and I think it's cypher in general might be a very easy target if that's your concern. Um I think it's just a political miscalculation.

You know like a couple of years ago, I was very easy to like bash on this new kind of money and new kind of digital asset didn't make any sense. Was bad for the environment used by criminals, right? I was just like that was the narrative a few years ago when he was with Warren, started talking about IT.

And IT was just a political miscalculation. And once you kind of get you get down that road, you're kind of capture by your audience. So I don't know that SHE. A deep in her soul has any animosity towards ript. Now I think that was a political position that he likes like staked out and you know SHE hasn't been punni shed for yeah right. So it's like the job of like people like train me to say, like, well, we need to educate the voters and either force eos with war and two pivot, which seems unlikely, but possible, certainly as possible, or to to get somebody also elected to represent the city master, which is that does actually do all of the great things that eliza one and does. He is a progressive person who will fight for social justice and women's reproductive rights and know socially quality and all of those things get somebody in there who will do that and also appreciates h bitcoin as a digital asset and will put common sense regulation about crypto, the cyp, to industry into practice as opposed this sort of fear mongering political calculus that I just don't think pans out.

Yeah, I want to ask that really quick. I think there's a Younger generation. It's such a generation divide. I think we're seeing this with lawmakers. Um there's many Younger democrats that are getting quite frustrated even even trucks humors getting quite frustrated being in new york coming like, listen, we're not taking action for years and years now and we're being beat out like china might beat us out. Other places might be at out focusing on that.

There's a lot of Younger democrats like it's not enough to just say, well, lizbeth warn is a champion for reproductive rights and for you know working middle class like that's that's any democrat at this point and that is a lot of Younger democrat that also are gonna like, hey, we are into bakwin ency photo from a financial conclusion and we want you to we want to support the industry. We will support people who want to hold hold their own. Bitcoin were very support of this.

We get IT were Younger. We're technology for all that. So this was one is going to have to decide, does he he's seeking out another term this year in all likely hit. He's going to be reelected in terms of masteries than to support the next cycle, though after this and not so sure. So her her time is kind of short unless she's going to pick on this or most likely retire and takes some sort of advisory position or chair position somewhere is my my opinion. I I don't think should be very active in the area administration, but that perhaps as a whole other conversation.

So obviously, in this election cycle, we have seen Donald trump really take up the mental of both the in and cypher at book. In twenty twenty four, he pledged numerous things to court the cypher vote, including firing, gearing, gancy or on day one.

As you know here that as you see, he promised to shut down Operations, help point to a point o to come up with cypher regulation in the first one hundred days, defend the rate of self custody, which is a big deal, create a frame for stable coins. And he also you know jumped on to this ban hagan of you know having this strategic bitcoin reserve. And since you are progressives, I wondered what IT was like for you to watch him do that and what your reaction is to to his promises yeah .

i'll start very briefly. Um I was on the same stage down all trump on the same day bit point twenty four and I was of a surreal moment because I was on stage with um congressmen roll conna talking about how progressives and congress can work towards a bitcoin future and then I was on stage with widely nickell who's a democrat uh congressmen from north CarOlina talking about how progresses can work towards of the coin future um and the entire audience was there to see Donald trump so IT was an actually a pretty interesting moment.

I think that on one hand IT is great to have any person seeking office to be aware of and to know the talking points and to be able to talk about crap to and to a bit in finally, in an intelligent way, I think that in many ways are F, K. Junior did that very well a year before and you know he was at bit point twenty twenty three and he he did, you know, he gave a very lovely speech that really indicated that he knew at least you know, surface level, level one, level two about bitcoin and how IT works and how I can actually make the world Better place. I'll know that Donald trump has and said the word bitcoin really, since nature, a big twenty, twenty, twenty four, I think that .

released an N. F. T collection. So yeah.

yeah, I know, I guess yeah. So like this one mention of bitcoin and again, this goes back to the other question about clipped versus bitcoin um but I you know in my own personal al opinion, I just don't feel like he's he's genuinely interested in bitcoin as a resource to make the world a Better place.

I do think that he sees this as a political issue that needs to be talked about and and maybe can get him some money to his campaign or get him some votes in november. You know, having said that, I just say that my sort of vision and hope of like the progress and education and the political standing of digital assets and bitcoin specifically is a is essentially like where we're probably not ready for mainstream viable presidential candidates to be discussing this. I think that I would much rather see a ground dup approach, like how people start locally, educate your peers, educate voters, educate congress people, state legislators, and move on, move up.

And I think that, you know, and I said this in other spaces, that Donald trump was at bitcoin, twenty twenty four, talking about bitcoin and cyp do, because he was encouraged to do that through campaign contributions by a very few number of highly influential people. And I feel like that was an unforced air for them for for those people in the big win and crypto industry to really push home the point in twenty twenty four and force donal trump to kind of have this position where I think bitcoin is a perfectly reasonable presidential issue in like twenty thirty two as we build up this grounds support. So I feel like I was an unforced error to make twenty twenty four the cyp do in the coin election and and quite honestly, I don't see IT playing out in a positive way and at least Donald truck support for a bitcoin specifically in a positive way for him or for for big point.

So I have mixed feelings like obviously as I started, like it's it's not bad necessarily to have a viable presidential candidate talking about these things, but you know, if my main concern about educating people about bitcoin is, well, what about all of these frames and scams and scandals in the crypto space? Adding Donald d trump to the conversation does not help my cause at all, because the people that I care about view him as a one man and a grifter at all of those things. So it's it's really a marriage. It's, it's, it's inconvenient for me as an educated a bit point to have to field questions from that angle also.

And IT, just to understand your point a little bit, you were saying that you felt that I would have been Better if I had got up in a more grass roots. We are like lower level kind of elected officials and then reached the president al stage in two election cycles. And is that simply because he wanted more kind of a grounds will support among st the population before a four?

I got to that. Yeah I think that if you if you're trying to get like bitcoin or even crypto to be like a viable popular thing that people are starting, understand and appreciate in a political space having to be a top down issue where we're just going to go to Donald trump and say, well, here's one hundred million dollars you like.

Bitcoin now is not a sustainable way to do IT because if he doesn't get elected, or if he get elected, then somebody else get elected like IT just change its right. But educating voters and educating people in in local politics is a much more sustainable way. Gain support for, let just say, the cyphered industry, right? Like the people making state wide legislation, county wide legislation, people representing their congressional district, that's much more effective in terms like a long term progress than having somebody who's at the very, very top.

Just all the decide, you know, on a tuesday that there in favorite of bitcoin because on on monday, they were behind closed doors with a bunch biton miners who promise that money. So I just feel like it's more sustainable to do IT from the ground up now if that's one election cycle from now or two, you know, but I don't know. But the point is like we needed more education among the populist before we had like a top down approach.

And what do you make of the fact? Well, a couple of things for the fact that I guess roughly in the ballpark, ka, fifty million americans already crypto. So you know, that's like one in six americans and uh higher percent of the voting electorate.

And then on top of that, J D. Vance, he fears to be like an an actual bit liner. So I don't know what your reaction is to both of those statements.

Ah i'll just respond quickly. Maybe tray has some thoughts to um I I think that it's great that a lots of people on a bitcoin and and uh trade merchant and critter in general but trade mention the knock moto project where there is a service about bitcoin specifically and it's important, right? Like it's it's actually maybe a moment where we can do a little bit of lobbing because we are a large enough group to pay attention to but a small enough group to be nimble and like we can, uh, influence elections without upsetting too many people like the five and six we don't own cyp aren't gonna get upset if we want to make a little bit noise.

I just think this should be from the from the bottom up or to maybe think a little bit more carefully about who are representative are right, like every time that there's a negative trump s article in the neurotic times right now and you can might have opinions about the neuk times, but a lot of people who I want to get in the big in read the nearer times like it's him standing in front of bitcoin, right? And I don't think that you know having trump represent us as bitcoin ers or J D. Vance represent us as bitcoin nars makes IT seem like approve or Normal or not a scm or not weird.

And so I just don't think it's just from an educational point of view. I don't think that that's a good look for us. And it's not as if maybe jay events certainly came a bit point on his own possibly or educated himself over a long period of time.

But uncertainly trumped in IT, right? IT wasn't like he came to bitcoin naturally. And just choosing saying we want this to be the face of bitcoin is as an unforced air, I think, because it's gonna IT hard for the other half of the they get behind IT.

Yeah, the way I do IT to, and I talked with lynd about the M. I. I show recently, blind has a wife stepping back when so many of us are just so in the moment on something, whether it's online or whatever.

Anges remembering to online is the two five percent extremes of either side. And the most americans are kind of in the middle, just trying. They're focused on a daily life. And then they hear some things here.

And they are like, just to mention, they might see trump in front of big in in new york quickly as they games on their apple news in the early off. That's m and then move on. It's like, oh, man.

So the way I focus on is risk mitigation, right? I think those of us in dichotomy cyp to we didn't get in a bit coin or cyphered because we thought the the government has IT all under control and things are just perfectly great like these are these are different systems where these are kind of parallel systems to help, whether it's to help make the us. And other countries more viable, like the elsevier experiment or or others that believe the U S.

Should have the strategic stock pile or to help your own individual family situation or saving situation or business situation, right? I think it's all about risk mitigation. And so what what little I had talked about is really just you don't want to see bitcoin adopted by only one side, right? Because that's how draconian laws get passed.

There is a supermajority in congress when they pass the gold band, the gold compensation act from F, D, R, right? We don't want to see something like that for for big quinn's ypo s so for me, yes, I am a progressive, someone from the left and also not a single issue voters. I think some people might be voting for trump because they think that is our best option to have the bitcoin Price just absolutely pumped and other issues are not importance.

Me, well, for me, i'm not a single issue voter when I approached that, right? So we're in a bit of a in bed in a rock and a hard place right now where democrats, there's some signal maybe things could change or I think commerce is should he become president, is going to be more open. Two things compared to german and administration.

But what does that look like is, gary, against they're still gonna active as IT is what we're going to be even more active, is IT going to be proof the industry, but still a lot of kind of weird tax policy, a back or band itself because we don't really know yet. I'm feeling a little bit more hopeful. But so I understand I folks, especially bitcoin industry leaders, bitcoin ders people in crypto, that i've had this kind of relentless attacks.

Or just wondering, can I even do business in the U. S. Why they looked to trump or seed and to say, well, he's not trying to ban my or my industry or whatever, but also trump has a track record of not really following through on a lot of things to begin with, looking at even the and again, this issue I care about.

But like reproductive rates and abortion rates, some would say trump a lot of the evening ical vote that he garnered in twenty sixteen. He's kind of backing down from his stance on abortion and saying I won't pass nationwide abortion bans of things like this, which I think her great. But a lot of those voters at the time, he corded them saying I will do so, right? So he flipped on that issue.

I'm i'm just using that as an example. Obviously, I against the nationwide abortion bans and things like this as someone from the left. But trump, very likely, and it's very obviously sees just coding votes, quoting massive amounts of of money. I think in terms of making Jason and in our lives a little bit harder and educating the left, there is a portion of that.

But the things i'd like to see, like for instance, even if it's like sense allama or ted crews, right again, a ted cruise is argument from the fact of I have a lot of bit coin miners in my state of texas that feels like a little bit of a organic support, right? He has industries in his state. He's a senator for that state.

He'd like to support his industries or sent the allama same thing. And while ming those kind of that's a bit of obviously, that's really grassy, but it's not quite as top down. It's more organic.

Like congressional members of congress and senators supporting industry in their states, in their communities, getting closer to passing laws. I think the best we can hope for is bipartisan support in congress and going from there. I just don't want to see draconian laws passed against bitcoin.

I don't need a bitcoin king as president. I just would like to see that the us. Is a place where I could be neutral or pro policy. And that industry folks, you doing this podcast, whatever, can just continue to do that and continue to thrive way we're we're doing things. That's my hope. And I think the jury still out at this moment, even though i'm feeling a bit more hopeful, but uh, so tough to know how to can play out .

just really quickly. I think that it's important to know that trade mentioned risk mitigation. And certainly, you know like we're in the sort of new industry that there's lots of risks.

And you know i've been saying as as often as I can that you know according Donald trump to be profit coin is a reputational risk. Like what IT means is that IT makes IT harder for the other five out of six people who don't unclipped out to get into IT. You know, maybe some of those people are already for trump.

And and I do get the sense that there's big corners out there who are saying that they're single issue voters who are only voting for trump because they support bitcoin. And my suspicion is that if you dig in each one of those people, they're ably going to go for trump anyway and this just a really convenient like excuse to say, oh, well, i'm you, i'm a single issue voter. I really like biton, but they're going to vote for a trump anyway. So I think the reputational risk is something is really important, right? As somebody who cares, and once to get as many people on the light boat is possible, and to understand that there is a new technology that can make the world a Better place, the last thing I need is somebody having another reason to dismiss IT out of hand without thinking about IT.

Well, sutri mentioned this a few times that he was hopeful about commonly heroes, but that it's really a big question. K, so you know, there was recently this scripture for Harris town dhall. And you know, see, that seems just if i'm breathing you your statements that both of you do do not want to a vote for trump. And yet IT is obviously you know extremely well documented that the bite administration has not been friendly toward bitcoin or crypto o you know in terms of approving the big coin ets, they really were forced you by a core and very brugg ly. So and I just wondered, like maybe maybe you maybe your hearing more things, you know, do you have a sense of what commonly will do just generally because they know you attended this town hall, how did you come away feeling about, you know what what he potentially could be promising?

Yeah I I think very practically very realistic. I think the jury is still out, but i'm leaning a bit more on the positive side, meaning I don't think that right out of the gate we're going to see this is just my own opinion. And I know I know well in many of the other organizers for rhymes, soph hair, they are awesome people.

They're trying to do really good work. There are just grasses organizers as well. So I know people have said, well, you have to make their tell complex campaign policy.

This is that is like the ript of harare thing was kind of their very skilled um political Operatives. I don't mean that majority vely, I just mean they worked with different packs and campaigns and things like that before. They're very knowledge able of this political game we have in the us for Better for us.

But they are not attached to the hairs campaign. We're trying to amplify the message of equality. Cyp du is something that you should have on your right are and there's an expectation that you all will do things differently because IT hasn't been going great the past few years in terms of the type of B S. That the industry has had to deal with that we shouldn't right. Um the first one, I would say the court thing to be working well, which is good.

Um that is one of my hopes that I think a lot of the things that have been proposed and put on to the either even some of the lose with warrants legislation and things like that, that aren't gaining too much traction but still exist, which is concerning these these kind of back to our bands are these kind of like you know um extra taxes on bit line miners and things like that. I don't think these things will hold up in court. But again, we don't like to see that.

We don't like to see that purpose. So in general, I don't think great to see the her campaign come out and say on one hundred percent pro bitcoin, pro crypt u and this is but I do think there's a bit of a shift in the democratic party specifically. So again, I mentioned truck humor.

There's so many others. There's at least about a dozen members of congress, roka being one of the the best that are really actively from you know same faces co. From new york saying we are pro that coin.

We're pro crypto where pro pro innovation, pro bitcoin mining, all of these things. That is things we haven't heard in the past year or two. Those are sending the signals truck tuum are coming on the cypher for Harris call reading office script saying we want to get legislation passed by the end of this year.

We will see if that happens or not. I think there might be a little bit of a chance probably right after the election, but early twenty twenty five, I think it's definitely the tables. We will see what's actually in that legislation.

But these are things that were not even whispered two years ago from the democratic party. Um so I think it's a bit of you know vive off the republican party, yes, but it's even more so members of congress and they are constituent and businesses and packs that are donating to both sides of the isle. That are getting very, very impatient and lawmakers and truck humor really knowing we don't have any more time left.

We need to get some things done on this because the expectation is that america, a leader on technology and will look pretty silly if we fall behind uh, in in the world. So i'm feeling more hopeful in that regard. In terms of the hair rs ad men, we still don't know who those key players are going to be for treasury, for sec, for others.

I think once we get more information on that, like if get her insular sticks around, if others, we will get a sense of how much more we need to reach IT up the the complaints to congress and things like that. So congress, I think, is moving in a very positive direction. The her administration, I think the jury still out. I know there's been some general vives when advisers saying we're going to be protect industry and that kind of stuff, meaning yp du, we need a little bit more in in my opinion. But again, hats off to the gypt or for hair people I know there they're trying to best are trying their best to amplify this message.

Yeah and and i'll just add, I think that um you what happens every four years is that we have this disproportion IT um concern over the very top of a presidential ticket, right? And we know that you know, the reality is that presidental say a lot of things, but when they're in officer, either unwilling or unable to affect like a lot of the policies that they really wanted to do, right? So this happens all the time.

And having um uh a strong coalition in congress, having the senate majority leader um the U S. Senate say positive things about uh digital assets and cyp down in bitcoin is is ultimately way more powerful than what's happening in like a presidential election even though the presidential election just for a sucks all of the oxygen of the room, right, all of the attention is on trump and combo heras right like that, who we want to know what you going to do, what's gna happen with your policies. And trump will say things like, well, going to fire garret enzler on day one, even that's like illegal to do and like there's more is more complicated than than doing that.

Um you know but I much rather trade in you know five presidential candidates for like one senate majority leader um or you know twenty congress people who are representing their congressional districts and have formed pro crypto, pro bitcoin coalition. So I think that you know IT goes back to my earlier point, like the the very top of the executive branch is important um but I think that we do misplace a lot of the importance and it's a deportation of energy dedicated towards well, what's this certain specific persons policy on that when they have to deal with a judicial branch and a legislator branch that feels differently than them? Um so I feel like it's important to keep that context in places we make our choices. And you know like i'm you said, like i'm not I make no illusions i'm not voting for trump. I think that bitcoin is gonna be just fine under either president um I don't trust IT trump keepers promises um and I feel like you know even if that he is saying I think about bitcoin um and I I care about a lot of other things too right like the peaceful transition of power and you know the social equity and justice that I want to see in the world um is also important to me and I think bit point will be just fine under either president um and especially if we see, as trade noted, all of these positive movements in our elective representatives at the congressional level that's important also maybe even more .

important yeah and just one minor correction. I do think um term can fire gary against her as the chair. He just can't fire him. From S C, C overall.

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yeah. Well, so um last question I guess would just be if you were to make a pitch to commonly haris team about bitcoin or crypt to what would you .

say what i'd want to see specifically, I think get regards to policy because I think a lot of policies that could be against south city, against bitcoin mining or taxing them unfairly, like energy, things like that, I do think they're illegal and they're more constitutional crisis. That doesn't mean we should get close to that point or attend fit with that. Um but in terms of policy, I would like to say just a reiteration of self custody that people can can hold their own bitcoin crypt o like this is this is the point of itself custody. You don't have to rely on this medal, man.

You don't have to rely on a bank prioritising and and not going against proof of working mining like bitcoin mining is really beneficial and also do not go after open source developers that are working on privacy attack, working on open source development like amErica is a leader in in software development, open source development technology, so do not go after them, uh, unfairly in terms of kind of criminally prosecuting folks that are working on. I mean, we've seen kind of attacks on this all over the world now, telegram as well. So that kind of the world that i'm more concerned about is like attacks on privacy, attacks on people using their own property, in this case, big coin or cyp to.

So i'd want to see, can you just reaffirm for your voters, for the fifty million cypher holders, for the large industry word by that, you are not going to combat this. And hey, if you end up being even more supportive, that's great. But for me, it's kind of the low hanging fruit of like can you just establish an rea firm that americans continue to be law biting americans and follow our constitution and be able to protect these things because there have been some members of the party like elisa thorn actively combatting these things are going against IT.

And I do think that's illegal, but i'd really just like to see the hair is admin saying we are moving on from that and we're taking the power away from folks like gazala, from folks like warn who do not even speak foreign, resent progressives on this issue. The people that actually holdhurst in bakin removing away from that. I think we're seeing that shift for that.

But that that is my pitches that listen, we're not looking for favorite tissue. We're not looking for you to say all of these, all of these things that even dont trump as saying about you per bitcoin. And we are not looking for commode coin and to preheat a launch room.

Nf, t, and this and that we just want to reaffirm some basic protections of self custody, proof of work, mining. And I say this is a big winner and developers that this is a safe and thriving atmosphere for people to work on development, work on freedom tech, work on bike encrypt to that. That is what i'd want to see. And that would be my my pitch. I'd probably tried to frame them more eloquently and work with some, you know, policy goods on this, but that's my pitch.

Yeah, I do with everything that trade just said, I would actually be very disappointed if I saw a calm lickin show up that from her from her campaign. But um I I think it's just it's really is that if you have a neutral stance as sort of a legislative body and your policy issues to say people are allowed to use their as, that's how they want.

People are allowed to buy electricity fairly at a market rate that makes sense without being tax just because how they're using IT. These are these are just really all we need and that will be will be just fine. And so my pitch to the commute team, the Harris team, would be my the same pitch I have to my co workers and i'm going to go see in a couple of minutes, which is key ep learning about bitcoin.

It's a lifelong endeavor and there's a lot of benefits and a lot of ways that bitcoin can help us make the world a Better place. Um so keep learning you know as much as you thinking you know about bitcoin, there's always more to learn. So you know stay out of the way common sense legislation protect some consumers for sure, but allow people to use the access how they how they want and keep learning. I think that's the key.

All right. Well, this has been a great discussion. work. Can people learn more about each view and your work?

Um so, uh my book a progresses case for big coin, uh you can see me on twitter, uh, C J. And mayor, or you can check out my website, a bitcoin progressive god come and you .

can check out our podcast. We drop new episodes every tuesday but uh, progressive big quinte dot com or the progressive equines ever gate, your podcast and on youtube and wear across all social channels x and things like that. I'm also active on noster for those uh maybe five and your audience that will know what what noster is. The central social media um active on there is but go to progressive bc winter that com you can also get in touch with a throw website.

No i'm sure most people know what monster is. So um all right. Well, thank you so much for joining us today to learn more about tray and Jason and how progressive ideals, along with the coin, check out the out for the episode unchanged as produced me laugh sh in without from a map pillon red one or rent of IT making gave us permanent dar and market korea.

Thanks for listening. Unchained is now a part of the coin dex podcast network for the latest in digital assets check out markets daily five days a week with host noel Anderson. Follow the coin desk podcast network for some the best shows and crypto to.