Mark Zuckerberg’s Midlife Crisis
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Welcome to uncanny valley, a show about people, power and influence and silicon valley.

I'm learn good a senior writer at wired .

and i'm so issuer director of business and industry at wired.

So this is our very first episode. How does he feel but feel good?

I'm so excited. I'm excited to we're so thrilled. It's like a human length in post. We're so thrilled to announce our new podcast.

the hard launch of our new podcast.

So there are a lot of places that we could go on our very first episode, but I think we should start with an individual. Has anybody seen mark zuker back lately?

Oh, have I ever?

How could you miss him?

Yes, you can't miss him. A the CEO of meta, one of the most important tech companies in the world, has been undergoing a very public style transformation. He's got a whole new look.

He's wearing new clothes. He's been working out. He's been doing things for this hair. It's a statement. And IT has us all wondering, what is mark socket berg trying to say with this transformation and why is he doing know?

okay. To get started, we have to go back to the year twenty ten in the D A. All things digital conference where mark zarchy g is on stage with what mosby g and Carry swisher carrer asks him a question about privacy.

You feel like you're violating .

people's privacy and he really .

starts to sweat.

IT really went from this position very early on, where we were just in this college door room to. We moved out to california. There was a few friends .

and and it's interesting zuker berg is presenting facebook as this like little old company, just a few of us, and it's a project and it's from a dor.

Then we moved to alia. And then zark work .

says this thing that we've heard recently from other CEO say, like if I knew then what I know now, like I would have done things .

little differently. Move off this privacy thing. And I thought that was a time when you take .

off the hood Carry.

asks if you want to take off the hood's. And then reMarks that there is a group of Young women in the audience so wish he would take off his, who he and he acts kind of sheep eely .

surprised as well.

Sorry.

that's OK at this points. A berg is scarring in his seat. He's looking away. He, like, he doesn't know what to do with himself. He wants to crawl out of his skin.

carrot takes his hood, and SHE shows IT to the audience in this moment is so crying. But to fully understand IT, we have to think about who mark zark berg was in our world in twenty ten and what he represented and why there is so much attention being paid. His body.

I mean, according to him, he was the most famous millennial in the world at this point. But we really knew him as this harvard drop out, this kind of genius kid who is building a product that was changing in the world. And at the time, facebook was still really popular, right? Ultimately, his image was inextricably tied to facebook image and the image of silicon valley more generally. You know, he's credited with cementing, if not creating, the kind of silicon valley uniform of a hoody and genes.

This was also before facebook was a publicly traded company. They didn't go public until twenty twelve. Uh, and also with the time you know, there was this amazing confluence of events happening where the iphone had to come out in two thousand.

And and that really revolutionized the smart phone and all of the sensors that come with a smart phone that enables top rer makers to track us in new ways. Facebook, interestingly, at the time, there was seen as being so cal behind on mobile because of the technology that they had built their mobile apps with, which was HTML of five. They eventually got up to speed, though. And then as we know, their mobile advertising business is doing just fine now.

So how does the hoody a line with where facebook is at this period in time?

Well, I think what so he said is right, which is that facebook is still presenting itself as I don't know, I start up in a sense, right? And so there wasn't a need to lead with a certain amount of professional m at this point in time.

Yeah, this was really the move fast and break things era. Mark zuker and facebook were putting out a whole bunch of new features and asking for forgiveness, not permission. And they were facing a lot of backlash at this point because they had made a switch to the privacy city in public by default. So suddenly, if you searched him e's named a whole bunch of facebook data would come up, data that that person probably thought was private when they put IT .

on their facebook profile. Well, you know, suck with his hoody became very much a symbol of that culture, that culture of like building stuff at the forefront. And I think IT has a lot to do. The fact that he was just always wearing a hoody and IT just became like the short hand for i'm the silicon valley hostile coder guy, right?

And the way that I was kind of democratized throughout the tech industry was that companies would spend thousands, if not millions of dollars on company I swag, like branded swag, that they would give out for free to all of their employees. One of the first companies I worked for gave everyone hoodies that said, nice sas on the lower back like that, proudly on the culture. So cream was there also .

this etho s at the time, from some of the founders, that the fewer decisions they had to make, the Better off everybody was. And one of those decisions was clothing.

Yeah, this goes back to the myth. Well, maybe it's not a myth. Maybe it's an central story, maybe it's awkward, but Albert einstein would famously, by several suits that looked the same. So he opens his closet and he doesn't have to think about what to wear so that he can think about the bigger things. And like, if you can minimize all of your decision making other than the most important things than those decisions that you make about those important things will be a sharper and that.

of course, Steve jobs at IT, the job at IT and obama did I I remember him to either a book or an interview.

So it's it's been this like philosophy that has sort of floated around in the valley in places where people are powerful and don't want have to think about their clothing, maybe because it's inconvenient, who knows? And this is all before the sort of symbol of the hoody and what IT represents started to really change .

if we're talking about mark ZARA g in his huddy area and the message being, i'm too busy building incredible products to care about what I look like. I feel like this really took a turn during the sand bank man fried F. T, X scandal in twenty twenty two.

sam bank man free, who once ran one of the world's largest crypto currency exchanges, F, T X, has been found guilty of fraud and money.

Laughing basically, no one looked like a bigger slob. No one really epidemic. Ed, i'm too busy being a genius to care about what I look like more than sam freed.

But then he turned out that he wasn't just sloppy in terms of what he looks like and how he dressed. His entire company was really sloppy. And in fact, oh, IT was a fraud. And so suddenly it's not cool to look sloppy. It's suspicious, it's even dangerous and it's really embarrassing.

It's juvenile.

So we're obviously here to talk through mark zuck berg transformation. Can you both identify when these changes actually started to happen?

For me, there was the hoody ara, which feels like a very distinct t. Ara as kind of epidemic ed, with a cara short, in our view, that we watched earlier. And then there is the suit era. And this really comes after the twenty sixteen election.

It's more than like twenty eighteen, when this is getting dragged before congress and we suddenly see him looking like a capital, a adult and he does not look happy about IT at all, but he's wearing, you know, a well fitted designer presumably suit to go before congress and talk about all of the mistakes that facebook had made and really owe up to them. He was certainly taking IT seriously, and I think that that was symbolized with his clothes. He was been out the hoddy for a suit.

He had a close crop pet. He was saying, i'm showing up. I'm dressed like you were supposed to dress on capital hill, and i'm ready to talk about what we've done wrong and what we're going to do different in the future.

Yeah, this is what I feel like, the start of the like real recent transforming from like high school nerd to cool guy like he has swapped out the illness in jeans and hoddy for oversize shirts and gold chains. Hair has changed, just not close crop. He's got kind of long curls now, and he looks like a freer, more comfortable. And I don't know, a more fashionable .

version happens for me. I think that neck shift happened with the rise of quite luxury, which was perpetuated by the HBO show succession, which I know all of us loved, the vowed yp.

But IT really started to take hold in silicon valley a little bit before then, because I think what you had was all of these once Young men and some women, but let's be a lot of men, many of them of a sudden very wealthy, from the rise of web two point o and the mobile web. And they just started dressing a lot. And I like, they started swapping the casual hood for the cashmere hoody and the hard to get designer sneaker ers. And this, to me, you know, also coincided the commercialization of the internet in a new way, like the internet really was no longer about the early days of anarchy and connective ess and techno utopianism IT was about maintain money. And that started to show through the close.

yeah. And you know what? This has been a lot. It's been a pretty stark .

transformation. Who among us hasn't changed their style radially from time fifteen years ago? But to watch him do IT in public is so fast, because IT really does feel like at every stage he's trying to say something with a very specific.

not sure what was this transformation from what to what I would summed .

up as just muslin nial midlife internet crisis being capsule ted. Okay.

IT is so funny because he's still wearing t shirts occasionally. But sudenly, the t shirts are buna con shirts are like, really, really expensive.

right? exactly. They come from, like, organically fed lamas in peru and named to buro. There was a story last year about the rise of lauro piana, which are these beautiful italian kashmir sweaters.

The story was in new york magazine, and they used an image of zokora gna really nice sweater as one of their header images. And Sarah berg actually wrote to the writer to correct them and say, oh, i'm not wearing a loo piana. In that instance, they are buck Mason, which are hundreds of dollars, one thousand.

Yeah, what are you talking? What's the Price point on those that lauro's onest sweers like a thousand dollars in above? Yeah.

I had seven of them. I see. I'm just kidding .

because you're a director in a journalist. Money.

right? So we've traced the evolution of mark cyclic style from the hood to his sadi face. My question is, who is zuker berg trying to speak to? What is he trying to say? And how does IT IT into where meta is headed as a company? We ll have more on that after the break.

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Hi, i'm mila figger, host to the new podcast wired politics lab. As the twenty twenty four election quickly approaches, conspiracy theory, disinformation campaigns and technological chance are everywhere online. Why are politics lab is here to cut through the noise and help you make sense of IT? All join me every thursday, as i've talked to the people in the middle of the online political circus, like twitch streamer has some piker.

Every single aspect of a conflict has some kind of rationally behind IT. You might not agree with that. You might not agree with the message, you might not agree with the means, but you have to look at IT as like a rational actor and make your analysis that way.

And pod, save amErica is john favo and Tommy vital.

I don't think we're going fact check way to Victory.

Follow wired politics lab for in depth conversations and analysis to help you navigate .

the upcoming election.

Welcome back to uncanny valley sell cut up with mark scherin, his fashioned choices. But what is meta in its current form? Where's the company at right now? Well.

I mean, to start, you said it's mea. It's no longer face the stock Price has more than quadrupled over the last two and a half years. It's doing really, really well as a company. It's going hard on A I, and it's not a big player in that space. Specifically with how artificial intelligence used for advertising ing purposes and medicine investing billions of dollars in reality labs to build a future that heavily features wearables.

Yeah, I think it's say to say that matter has gone its mojo back.

IT has and it's also kind of walked back its earlier stance in terms of cracking down on election lies and misinformation. IT has quietly started to allow way more speech than IT did previously, and we're seen mark eaker kind of suddenly cozy up to republican politicians like Donald trump.

We should also mention that meter isn't just big blue facebook anymore. It's a massive global corporation with lots of tentacles. IT has whats up? One of the most popular message platforms in the world.

IT has threads, which well over a hundred million users have signed up or been sucked into. And then of course, there's instagram. And I would say that if there is an area of facebook, not necessarily from a business perspective, but from a societal perspective, that has come under more scrutiny, IT is instagram. And how people are a little bit concerned about the IT could be impacting our mental help.

particularly for Young users that even still instagram ma's .

cool and we can't stop .

looking at IT, right?

Ah it's the atom .

that everybody .

I do so you because i'm on IT.

maybe i'm not so i'm like couldn't be cool.

you know but IT is like going had to have a tiktok right now and it's an an interesting position. And I think you know the other thing that met IT is doing that is a big part of their business or they're hoping this a bigger part of their business is the V R N A R play right, the headsets and particularly the ray ban smart glasses. And I think the first part of that, the ray ban part, really speaks to what we're talking about, because if zuker g is signing deals with fashion companies to sell covered products, then he also has to become a fashionable person.

I started a working with people to design to my own clothes.

This is mark sucker berg on the acquired podcast this september, which he taped in front of a huge audience in the chase center here in safran ces go. He's wearing one of his own concepts, A T shirt that says, pussy moths learning through suffering.

So I figure, you know, look, we're going to design, I wear are going to design other stuff that people wear. Let's let's get good at this. If he's going to be selling fashion accessories, he has to look like he could wear fashion accessories. So is this all of him? Is he going on instagram late at night shopping and picking all .

of those he people, friends you ask the mark agrawal has actually said in his like calm stem has said that he mostly does shop on instagram and that well, for a bigger sense, he will work with a stylist, designer, most of these clothes he picks out himself. I have talked to celebrity stylists, people who work with the beepers and other big a labs, and they have said, no way. He's definitely working with like a hollywood celebrity stylist and all of them do. All of these big tax CEO are working with someone who is brand image conscious and in charge of kind of shaping a transformation and a visual for powerful people.

And he's influencing, right? He's embracing his new roles and influencer in the fashion world, and he's sending a message. So my question is, who is the message for, you know, who is looking at mark zuker berg drip photos and saying, I want to to be like that guy who's target audience?

I think that this is really generation. If you look at some of the older tech founders, I think that they're clearly influenced by the space race. And you can tell because of the billions of dollars that they're investing into their hobby, which happened to not be greek t shirts that say coffee, mars, their rocket trips, but soccer berg really is the quintin sial mEllenda.

He is influenced by the nineties and pop culture and mtv and also, yes, the rise of the consumer internet, which he helped build. But all this also happens to be crucial, I think, to his business in terms of appealing to the next generation of internet users, like he needs to appear cool to the Younger kids who are on the internet, who are using his apps, who might be using tiktok, who is trying to lure over to meta apps. And I think that he needs to appeal to their sense of self, because that's what the internet is to a lot of people. Now it's about the self .

that's interesting. So he builds a product to help people define themselves and give themselves an identity. And he is also defining themselves and giving himself an identity.

I'm not going to say that he's single handily responsible for feeling our collective self obsession, but he's part of IT.

But he does feel like this is mark as a more authentic version of himself. Like, I think one thing that didn't really work before, when he was in his sweet, kind of nervous, is that IT seemed like he was trying to be someone he wasn't. He was trying to be an adult before he was ready to be an adult, and there's a certain freedom with what he holds himself. Now he seems like happier. And even if I look at like the way oversize tees and the chains and think it's all a bit much like IT does feel like that actually how he wants to dress.

like what do you think he's trying to say?

Well, I have a theory about what he's trying to say. And IT has to do with masculinity. I feel like the man just turned forty this year, right? He's in his forty eight year and he is really thinking about how he looks and how he is perceived. So know a few years ago he was doing all of the mix, martial arts training and like getting buff and IT was all fighting .

proving that he killing an for me era, right?

Yeah, yes, yeah. He was. He was unting. And the only meat that he was eating was stuff that he'd killed with his own bear hands.

right? Is like trying really hard to be a man, capital and man. And I feel like, you know, you can you can do that and you can prove IT to everybody except yourself.

You know there's a search within that happens when you start to embrace your masculinity and you start to realize that like you need to pay more attention to your body. And I think that's what he's going through. That's what he looks like he's going through anyway. I mean, i'm not inside his head, but I see him everywhere and he looks like a guy who's feeling himself.

okay. What do you think that says about his politics?

I mean, he said really clearly that he wants to be a political in this stage. And I think we can all be a little suspicious of whether that's actually possible given that the product that his billiam is inherently political. But I mean, in recent years, he gave millions of dollars of his own wealth to rebuild election infrastructure around the country.

And then during the pandemic, right after this massive investment, I don't essentially blame him for the depth of millions of americans because covered information is spreading on his platforms. And I think that there's been a certain amount of representant he's like, i'm not going to donate to these campaigns anymore because that gets me in hot water. People say i'm trying to sway the election, rigged the election and also I get no love from demise product politicians whatsoever.

Didn't also say after there was that assassination attempt on Donald trump and cyberia was in an interview with Emily change from plumbers TV and said the way that trump reacted .

to that was bad as I see that as kind of cold calculation. Maybe he really does respect what Donald trumpet did in that moment, but I think more likely he's trying to cozy up to republican politicians, who we have to say are much more transactional in their relationship with meta and with facebook. They're saying, if you leave us alone, if you don't moderate, our speech will leave you alone and that's a relationship he can't really have with the .

democratic side of a house. Yeah that trucks. And also, I do appreciate how we're trying to do this deep dive into mark sara psyche. It's fascinating.

But I ultimately believe that this is, if not entirely about his business, it's it's a reflection of IT and where he wants the business to go, right? He is trying to compensate for something. And I do not mean in that midlife, millennial internet crisis, maybe by a sports car design a sports car way. I mean, this is this is about the future.

Literally did design sports of meta yeah.

I mean, cyclic himself has expressed this recently. If you listen to interviews with him, i'll say, IT out right? I happened to be at the cigarette conference and denvers this past summer where I was interviewing invidia, CEO, jensen huang.

And afterwards, sucker berg was on stage with Johnson. And he said that when he looks at the next ten to fifteen years of what he wants to build a meta, he wants to make sure that meta is building fundamental technology. The technology that serves up the software experiences that people are having basically wants to be in control of the hardware.

I think what happens with apple in twenty twenty one, when apple rolled out APP tracking transparency, which gave users of the iphone more options to opt out of ads, and that know facebook 的 business temporarily took a hit。 I think that really underscored for sucker berg that facebook, when IT came to the smartphone several years ago, they lost control of that platform. And he wants to have that control in the future. And this is all a manifestation, I think, of him trying to grab back that power .

by looking powerful, by looking in charge.

by no longer apologizing for what he wants to do.

I like IT and also I I got to say i'm here for IT like i'd love seeing mark sark berg actually looking fashionable and spending thousands of dollars on on his wardrobe. I think it's great.

I mean, sure, you have the money, yeah. But ultimately, this is just mark sacroc k's world, and we are all living in IT.

So why should people care about this? I'd like to hear a one sentence take from each interview laun.

I think that there is a lot of style washing happening here, and that is important that we all still pay close attention to metas policy decisions and strategy. Mike.

what's your take? I would say that we should expect to see a lot more wearables coming out of meta like it's. Can stop IT just sunglasses.

This is a set up where we're getting a vision of of what mark wants to be. Any wants IT to be A A fashion company. And so what about you?

I think that Marks like being in a more leval kind of cultural era while he's simultaneously walking back crucial content generation efforts and shine away from politics on threads and cozy up to trump is a really scary prospect.

Okay, we'll be right back. I am ki rizal all the host of how we survive. It's a podger for marketplace.

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okay. Do you know what time IT is?

Uh.

time for lunch close. It's tea time. Because this is our new segment that we'd like to call overhead in .

silicon valley film mity.

That's right. We go around the room and we share what we hear, what's the word on the street? What's going on on out there? Laun, I know you're very plug dinners, a reporter here wired, and you must hear a lot of things that really get your wheels turning or knocked your socks off. What if you over her in silicon valley? Well.

for our inaugural segment of overheard, I went to the fine APP blind, blind as an after employees can go event or ask advice of their interview for jobs, or run polls.

and just got .

a lots of goss, take everything with a grain of salt. People are posting anonymous. Ly, but I wanted to see what the latest he was on meta.

No, you guys probably know meta has been laying off lots of people, as have other tech companies over the past couple of years there in their years of efficiency. Recently, media, a small number of s and some of those people were apparently fired for not using a per dim food credit there. So will be ordering through grub hub or something, not using them for the appropriate thing.

They instead we're like going to write my tooth pace for themselves or something. Apparently they were given a slap on the rist and then a few months later were actually fired for IT. So I went to blind. I wanted to see what people are were saying about this. And someone were in a poll about IT. The last time that I checked more than four thousand seven hundred people had to respond and basically asked, do you feel that firing people for these policy violations for using these twenty five dollar club club credits for non food items, our fair, and perhaps not surprisingly, fifty four percent of respondents said not fair.

only fifty four percent .

or thirty eight percent said fair.

which would surprise me.

Wave point six percent um this I was like at these people, troy said. They hope to see more. Oh my god, I know that's evil.

I I mean, go work at ex. Yeah.

go work at ex. Be hard core. It's a plug for always book.

The concept of we're going to fire you because you're fulfilling your incorrect basic need with this credit that we're giving you to fulfilling your basic need is just wild.

right? Like I think the idea behind twenty five dollar club club credit is your working lee. So here's some food to keep you sustained while you continued, you toil away your desk and someone says, well, i'm gna go to ride in my tooth pace instead or whenever order toothpaste instead and maybe they're gaining .

the tooth pace we don't know don't know.

doesn't seem like a major or fable infraction, but in fact, we don't know the whole story. We don't know if they were low performers or something else was going on. But this is, this is what we know. I mean, this is what blind to tell us. So that must be true.

Half of the employees who responded to that question have .

heart exactly.

okay. Oh, what have you overheard in silicon .

valley minds? More of an overseen, if you will. But does the phrase dual money mean anything to you guys?

OK, you know this thing?

Oh, okay. So dull. The baby company talking .

about the singer.

我 刚才 在 改名 now drew the vapor company and recently settle a class action lawsuit。 And those payments have been hitting the bank accounts of Jenny. And there's a tiktok trend now where they're posting what they're going to do with all their deal money.

I mean, some of the payments are like eight thousand dollars. I don't know how much sure you needed to purchase to get that much money, but people are like, I don't know what to do. Should I invest IT? Should I buy socks? Should I never have a whole new warrior and look and feel? But it's been .

pretty funny to watch. Wow.

did you buy joe? I absolutely did. And then I, at one point, I have a visual memory of walking along grand avenue and oakland and then throwing in the true pully. Because I was like, have to get this away from me. Take my jewel, but I love to party.

Have you gotta check?

No check.

And you throw that and trash.

Not of the three thousand dollars you could buy eight.

Laura piano sweers .

with that. It's true. Okay, mike, what of you?

Her, okay. So I found out very recently that the three people who I know in my life, who actually purchased an apple vision pro headset with their own money, have all returned IT.

yeah.

So one person laun, you bought one? Come.

i'm sorry for experimental sake.

yes, but still, you know, you ought one and then you return IT. So you can't. There's another person my life who bought this one. And then I kept IT for about two months and then sold IT to somebody. And I found out that the third person who I know who bought one has also sold IT.

Did they sell .

them at a loss? yes.

And learning not be invited back to A W, W, D, C.

ever. D, I got this invited to wwdc. Any iphone. I wonder if it's because I ran a two week experiment just solving .

in the apple vision pro. Woud be that not be that?

No.

should not caution.

So what was their reasoning?

They just don't use IT because it's just it's not anything that they want in their lives like they thought they would be into IT. But I was just boring and there wasn't really much to do, and they felt silly looking at IT every day knowing how much money they spent on IT. So they gave IT to somebody who or sold IT to somebody who actually wanted IT.

Maybe that personnel keep IT, who knows, but I think IT really underscores the cool reception of the apple vision pro, the fact that I only know three people who bought IT. And like, you know, I live in separate cisco. I live like in the bubble.

I'm here, and I only know three people who bought the thing. That, to me, was already surprising when I added that up. But in the fact that all three of them just don't ow any more, I really tells you that like it's not a product that has a wide appeal. IT is extremely expensive. There's a lot of other things you can spend that money on, and I think that's what people are learning.

Do feel like it's dead in the water though or is IT just too early? And maybe in a few years, we're going to see that really take off.

Now to the first question, yes. To the second, like it's not dead in the water. There is some news recently, I think from the information found out that apple has stopped producing new apple vision to headsets because they have enough to satisfy demand right now.

There are a thing yeah, however.

I mean, I think they are they're going to keep eating on IT and there will be more apple vision Price. They're be cheaper and sooner later, the contents going to come. This is the big hope.

How long did IT take for the meta quest to become something that was like mainstream? Actually, good. Lot of great games for IT. IT took years, right? yeah. Now I think .

meta claims something like sixty percent of the virtual reality headset market. I mean, all of this comes back to mark Robert, his way to the metal reality labs and seattle, yes, laughing all the way.

So anyway, that's what I overheard. I overheard that people just don't want the apple version from anymore.

Sorry, warp, sorry. I am not going to say warm wamp. Please invite me A W, C.

You actually love that. You're buying in me one as we making I get there. She's clicking birches.

oh, right. Well, that's our show. Thank you all for listening to our very first episode of uncanny valley next week we ask, was flex work all a lie? So be sure to follow the shows you don't miss next week episode or more of our future.

And while you're there, rates earn Candy valley on your podcast APP a choice if you have to get in touch with us with any questions, comments or suggestions for show topics, please write to un canny valley at wired dot com. We can't wait to hear from you. Today's show was produced by kiana mog down a marr law at micro sound mixed this episode.

Jordan bell is our executive producer, special thanks to executive producer stephane kariuki. Ona's head of global audio is Chris benny. We will be back next week. Thanks for this.

Hi everybody, i'm Michael colori, director of consumer tech and culture at wired.

I'm learn good, a senior writer at wired .

and i'm so he suffered director of business and industry at wired.

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we get together to talk about a story or a phenomenon bubbling up in silicon valley and how that thing is probably affecting you.

We're super excited about the show, and we think you're going to love IT you can listen to on Kenny bali wherever you get your podcast subscribed now so you won't miss be.

From P R X.