Ep 915 | Jase Takes On Satanic Attacks on Marriage & How Phil & Miss Kay Survived
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I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We were into, I think, a really heavy good discussion in our last podcast about this idea of relationship with God and what it takes to maintain that. And I was thinking, Zach, you and I had had a conversation recently. We're talking about marriage because marriage

Anytime you're involved in ministry, you're always involved in people's marriages as well as your own is always a challenge. We had Missy on the podcast recently and Jill as well. Lisa is going to be on hopefully the next podcast as well. We'll get a little update from her. I was thinking when you guys were talking about the idea of

of Satan's influence and our decision and how sin is the, is the violation of, of wanting that relationship with God. Cause we want something more. And I, and I think the perfect illustration is marriage and which is why Paul goes there in Ephesians five is because it's the closest thing we can simulate this idea because you make this covenant vow that,

with this other person that you're going to spend the rest of your life with them. And so entailed in that is procreation, of course, having children, but also just the idea of being intimate together in a lot of different ways. Of course, that's physically, but that's also emotional and spiritual. And then the evil one does exactly to our minds in a marriage situation as he does to us in the relationship with God. He comes in and says, there's something more here.

There's something better. There's something more pleasurable outside of this covenant relationship that you made, but it's a lie. It's not true.

I mean, what God created in us in this idea of Genesis 2, 24 and 25, is that there is a the closest thing you see on Earth in our relationship with him is you have with your wife or your husband. And the evil one has been trying the same thing to derail families. And you see it over and over again. And once you've been married a few years, at least I've been married 40 years this year. I see so clearly now.

Of when the evil one was doing his work, whether it was in my mind or her mind to for us to try to break out of what we know to be the right thing. And what's interesting is the longer you stay married. And this is where dad and mom are right now. And in a sense, Lisa and I are too, is you see that even through suffering and difficulty.

That your bond goes stronger, your intimacy grows stronger than it was when you were young and you based it all on different circumstances and different things that were happening. And what I've noticed here in the last few months for me personally is the opportunity to serve my bride, my wife,

As Jesus did his disciples and us by doing it down on your knees saying, I'm a servant leader, the intimacy and the strength that comes out of something like that, I can't even hardly put it into words as to how good it is. And so many people have experienced that. To prove your point, Ephesians chapter 3, one, two, three, four, four times in a

in about eight or nine verses, it's a mystery, mystery, mystery, mystery, mystery, mystery. You're like, whoa.

I mean, it's not easily grasped. That's why there's so many people, yeah, yeah, yeah, and arguing and all this stuff. You're right. The concept of oneness in the context of Ephesians, that would include husband and wife, but also Jew and Gentile. Well, it's the whole sacrificial love. I mean, the mystery, the real mystery at the end of the day is,

How can you have life through death? How can you receive if you give? How can you be first if you're last? That's the mystery that's being revealed. And, you know, we hear people all the time. I mean, go up here in this. That's not about a religion. It's about a relationship. But then like, what do you what? But no one understands what that means to be for our union with God to be truly relational and what it means to

is that it's sacrificial, that it's pouring out for, for not for yourself. It's not a self-consumptive pulling in, but it's an outward expression to pour out love. And, um, and that's why I think in the previous podcast, I've made the difference, talked about the difference between, uh, um, a black hole and a fountain. And, uh, uh, uh, you guys remember that song we used to sing in church, there's a fountain free tis for you and me.

Let us haste, oh haste, to its brink. Tis the fount of love from the source above, and he bids us all freely drink. And I love that imagery of a fountain going out. So when you talked about marriage, which Paul uses as an example of this in Ephesians 5, the intimacy within a marriage, the consummation of intimacy in marriage is the sexual union.

And the climax of the sexual union, what does it produce? More life. Yeah. And so I've always said it's a great litmus test if you want to say, man, how do I know if what I'm doing is truly relational in the way that God made me to be?

Am I truly living out the core of my humanity and what I was designed for? You can ask yourself this question. Does it result in life or does it result in death? Does it result in community or does it result in isolation and loneliness? Does it result in true vibrancy and peace of mind or does it result in hostility, depression, and anxiety? And you start to look at these trajectories and it becomes very clear that

what, who God is and the direction that he wants you to go in him. And so I think that's the big thing where we're trying to get through on a podcast is this is not just about getting a get out of hell free card like that. Like that is a very small way of looking at the book of Ephesians, the entire Bible for that matter. What we're talking about is a true, uh,

relationship with the living God that is defined by the cross, which is Christ emptying himself for us. And then we become like him and embody that same type of sacrifice for one another. And the byproduct of that is life, vibrancy, intimacy, community, oneness. That's why I was just such a

such a mystery the way in Ephesians 3, since you've heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I've already written about briefly. In reading this, then you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ. Check this out, which was not made known to men and other generations as if you, uh,

It has now been revealed by the Spirit of God's holy apostles and prophets. Whereas he's saying all this was not discussed for eons of time, all the way back to Jesus.

Not made known to him. But here, he said, this mystery is that through the gospel, the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise of Christ Jesus. So,

He just makes the point, this is information that was not even available until the Apostle Paul wrote this down, had this written down. That's pretty scary.

No, it's powerful, Dad. And just like Zach, you made the point in the last podcast that God couldn't maintain our relationship in unfaithfulness, as we saw in the garden. It's the exact same thing in a marriage. Why can we not maintain our relationship in unfaithfulness? Because it's not who we're called to be. You can't live like that.

And so faithfulness determines that we have sacrifice. And Jason, you mentioned before in a podcast, and I'd love to revisit that about the idea of heaven and earth coming together, uh,

And I think that's exactly what we see here. The bridging that Jesus did of heaven and earth together so we could maintain that relationship, even in spite of our sin and fault because of his perfection and who he is. Yeah, I mean, when he says that in Ephesians 1, 9 and 10, he says, and he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ.

to be put into effect when the times will have reached the fulfillment. And 1 Peter 1 says the same thing. To bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. And I don't know why for years I missed this, because if you played word association, you could go to any church building. If you say, I say heaven, you say, what do you say?

What do you think of usually when you say heaven and? Hell. Hell. Well, you say heaven and hell. But when you read the Bible, I look this up. Earth is mentioned over 900 times. Heaven is more than 600. Hell's a little tricky because the grave is translated the grave. So if you just let's just say you took those out. Well, it's less than 100 times.

So it's not what you think. And I'm not sure where we got to that point that, you know, there's a lot of contrast. You think about John, where's the John five. It says those who are, you know, raised to life and those who are raised to destruction. I mean, there's a lot of these Luke 16, you had the, the contrast, but just that phrase is heaven and hell. Yeah.

I couldn't actually find it beside each other anywhere in the Bible. You can kind of see the portrait I claim. But now heaven and earth, it's all over the place. And so that's kind of what made me go down that road. And so, you know, when you think about heaven, I came up with that presentation three or four podcasts ago.

Because this phrase in Ephesians 1, 3, where it says, He has praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus who has blessed us in the heavenly realms. Well, I looked that phrase up in the Greek, and I was shocked to see that this is an adjective. He's using heaven in description form. That's why it says a heavenly realm.

And so the root word for heaven, which if you get me trying to pronounce, great, we're in trouble. But it's kind of like the planet Uranus. It's similar to that, Uranus. But if you add the preposition epi, E-P-I, that heavenly right there is E-P-U-R-A-N-I-O-S. E-P-U-R-A-N-I-O-S. And it's only mentioned...

19 or 20 times, because there's one that's kind of, they're not real sure, but let's just say 19 times. But what I notice is the context every time, I would say most of the times in a couple it's assumed, is what Jesus's role at the right hand of God is. It's in that framework, which is very exciting when you think about it, because it's now kind of addressing

Well, what is Jesus doing now? It's a very good question. I looked it up on the internet and got a lot of crickets, a lot of crickets. You know, it doesn't seem like that difficult a question. So it kind of sent me down a rabbit hole of how do you explain heaven? And I thought before I, because I didn't really finish that. I went through the ones in Ephesians and we can repeat them as in review. But when it's, I mean, it seems to be a point of thrust in the book of Ephesians.

He came in Christ to bring all things in heaven and on earth together. He's blessed us in the heavenly realms. Then he gets to where we're at now, which is loosely in Ephesians 1.

19 and 20, you know, this section 15 through 23. But in 19 and 20, it says, he showed his incomparably great power for us to believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion.

and every title that can be given, not only in the present age, but also in the one to come, which I think is very important. Because not only in the present age, what does it mean that Jesus is exalted at the right hand of God? Well, when you go to Ephesians 2.6, you have this interesting phrase, same word, heavenly, this description adjective, Jesus at the right hand of God. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in

In the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. 310, his intent was that now through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms. You think, what does that mean? His intent was through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms?

according to his eternal purpose, which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. And look at this. In him and through him, through faith in him, we may approach God with freedom and confidence. So this is like one of the byproducts of Jesus' ministry.

at the right hand of God is that we may approach him with freedom and confidence. Same idea from Hebrews 4 earlier. And Colossians 1, that we're enemies in our mind. Yeah, this is coming up again.

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And the last one in Ephesians is that 6.12 when it gets on to us being, well, what are we going to do about this? What does it mean that Jesus is at the right hand of God? What is he doing? Well, all of a sudden it gets real practical when it gets to Ephesians 6 because we've already said numerous times the first three chapters is more about how God accomplished this plan. And then the last three chapters are more focused on how do spirit-filled people live

Make his presence known here, you know, in our marriages, with our kids, you know, the workplace, our roles in society. And then he gets to chapter 6, verse 10. He brings it up again. He says, finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.

He's at the right hand of God. He has entered heaven itself on our behalf. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Same word. So what I was going to ask you in the years past, when people would say, well, what is heaven going to be like?

I always explained heaven, I think like 99% of religious people. I would say, well, in the Bible, heaven is described three different ways. The sky, the outer space, you know, the planets, the stars, and the dwelling place of God. Is that basically agreeable? Yeah, that's true.

And you'll see different words, but when you hear them talk about the heavens, that's what they're talking about, one of those three options. That's why you see Paul mention the third heaven. He almost gives you that idea, right? Well, we've done that. But when you look at the Jewish Hebrew word in the Old Testament, it's predominantly the sky.

Now, look, I didn't realize why till I went down this rabbit hole of the Greek language of heaven, because I've really been pursuing that, which is how I found this adjective version, which I do think is interesting that Paul is using this. And Jesus himself used it in John 3. I read that a few podcasts ago, and we can read it again. But he used that same word to describe the actions of himself.

At the right hand of God and how he's poured out his spirit in people and how we're jointly in our relationship.

doing battle against the spiritual forces of evil while making him known. Yeah, and that's the key point, Jason. And I'll read that verse. We did mention before is Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus when he's talking about being born again. He said, and he told Nicodemus, I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe. How then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. Exactly. Well, let me read a couple more before I get y'all's comments. Then we can talk about it because I didn't read these last time. So another place this is used, same word, is in 1 Corinthians 15. It's used in verse 40 and it's also used in 48 and 49. I wanted to read 48 and 49.

Because here we're in this contrast, basically coming down from, just to get to the context of it. You remember in verse 22 of 1 Corinthians 15 where it says, "...for as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive, but each in his own turn."

Christ, the first fruits. Then when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end will come when he hands over the kingdom. So we remember this. He must reign until all his enemies are put under his feet. The last enemy is death. When he gets down to verse, what did I say? 48. 48. Here comes this heaven adjective here. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth, which is true.

As in Adam, at some point you're going to sin, and at some point you're going to physically die. And that's the bad news. Yep. But the good news is, and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so let us bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

So same descriptive word, what Jesus is doing now. So we're bearing his likeness now, and then he gets into how we're going to bear his likeness in the afterlife in verse 50 through, and we've read this many times.

through the end but he's you know 51 i'll tell you a mystery we will not all sleep but we will all be changed in the flesh in the twinkling of an eye but i wanted to read one other one because this one was really exciting in second timothy 4 14 that word describing heaven as it relates to jesus at the right hand of god comes up again zach you're really gonna like this

Because when I read this, I said, ooh, I need to call Zach. And then I looked, and it was 1 o'clock in the morning. So I thought, well, I'll just do it on the podcast. Which was 2 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, I may not have answered, Jace. No, no. So let's read verse 14. I'm going to read through 18. The word is mentioned in 18.

So he, he, Paul to Timothy said, Alexander, cause I want to get this context. Cause it's more about what is Jesus doing now at the right hand of God. And you'll, you'll see where I'm going with this. It said, he did me a great deal of harm because you know, Paul's being persecuted as he's declaring Jesus and Jesus is at the right hand of God, which is really what this is all about. Cause when you look around in the world, you're like, well, it doesn't seem like Jesus is at the right hand of God. It doesn't seem like we have any power, but,

Same concept in Ephesians. He's in prison while he's writing this, and he gets to that in Ephesians 3. And he's also being, Jay, very practical because he's writing this letter to his young disciple to be on the lookout for this guy. That's part of the thing. So then it says, the Lord will repay him for what he has done, which I think is very practical.

Look, C.S. Lewis said this. If you're ever going to write a book about pain and suffering, I'm categorizing what he said, and you don't include heaven, you're

It's not going to be successful because there is no answer. You take out heaven and God's justice, and there's a way to escape. Injustice is done to you, and there's a way for people to pay for injustice. If you don't have heaven come up, it's all moot. There's no solution anywhere.

So, which is very true. So this is why I really think this is powerful. So verse 15, you too should be on your guard against him because he strongly opposed our message. And you're like, well, why should we be?

Why should we be on our guard? I thought we had the spiritual armor of God on it, but it's always under the vein of we're going to suffer. Because watch, at my first offense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them. Now here's where I got chills on the back of my neck. But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength.

So that through me, the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. And I was delivered from the lion's mouth. The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely. And here's our word of this descriptive role of Jesus at the right hand.

to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. But the power in this is you see the present and what's to come because he said, the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength. Why did he do that? Because he's given us his Holy Spirit. But he is doing what he wrote in Colossians 3.1 where it says, set your mind on things above. That sounds good.

But if you really believe that, like Paul does, it's when people come to attack you. You're like, Jesus is at my side right here. He's at the right hand of God. He's at my side. I'm not getting off of this. I mean, I just thought it was very profound. Well, because you know what most people think when they think of where is Jesus at right now? They don't think he's here. Exactly. Exactly.

That's solid gold right there. And I think that is probably the big transition. Sometimes I think, man, we're saying the same thing over and over again. But you know, it's funny is we've been teaching this at our church, the same idea, and the eternal life is not out there waiting on us, but it's here that we can participate in now.

I built a church really on our anchor verse of John 17, three that defines eternal life as, as knowing the one true God and Jesus Christ, his son, whom he sent. And we've been doing this for almost four years now. And it's so funny. Somebody had sent a text to one of our pastors, um, after, uh,

My dad preached Sunday. He mentioned John 17, 3. And we've mentioned it all the time, this idea that we embody the kingdom here and now. And yes, it is to come. We are waiting on the consummation of that and glory and all that. But it is here. And it's so funny. Four years into this, one of our members had sent a text. I wrote down this note from Sunday about John 17, 3. And I had this thought that just blew me away.

And they said, I've never seen this before, that the kingdom of God, that the eternal life is not something that we're waiting on, but it's actually to have an intimate knowledge of who God is, to know him personally.

And it was so funny. We were laughing about it because we preach that every week. But some of this stuff is so counter cultural of what we're talking about here that it is going to take us the rest of our life just to be able to scratch the surface of this to begin to get it. But Jace, you know what verse popped in my head whenever you were reading that? Because you're talking about the Apostle Paul, but Jesus Christ himself said,

said this in Matthew 12, 28, that if I cast, if I, if it is by the spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of heaven has come upon you. And he did cast out demons, didn't he? He did cast out demons by the, by the spirit. So that the, the point there is, is that the kingdom of heaven, uh,

is at hand. It's here. It's around you. Dallas Willard makes the point in The Divine Conspiracy that a lot of times in Scripture, heaven is equated to the air around you, to your point. And so his whole point is, it's like the God is here, the kingdom is here, Christ is here. And I love that connection that Paul made, that it's through the Spirit that he's going to bring all the Gentiles into that understanding. So

To me, that's foundational and transformational for the believer to begin to understand this idea. Yeah. I mean, look, I hate that it's taken me 40 years to kind of do a Greek research and figure out that descriptive word of heaven, which means so much to me now. I mean, it excites me because I feel like it's a moment like remember when the guy was

In the Old Testament, Al, you'll remember this. When they were the army, they were fixing to do battle with the army, and he's like, God, show him, because he was fearful because they were outnumbered. Yeah, 2 Kings 6, Elisha. And all of a sudden, he gets this glimpse. But that should be our same attitude about Jesus at the right hand of God as spirit-filled people, especially when we're being persecuted. Because I know in all my heart, the reason Paul had this...

figured out and the reason he's using that descriptive word of heaven is because one day he was walking down the road and heard a voice saying hey Saul why are you persecuting me but but if you think about what he's saying there well he he was thinking God's a million miles away he's out here doing the work of God God's in outer space because that's why I brought up the Hebrew version of

heaven it was all about sky and space he's he's a long ways away and it didn't demean God because as I looked at that they they viewed rainfall as coming from the heavens which is technically true it God is the source because what does rainfall do where there's no water there's no life and so it's a cleansing thing think think the ark of

It cleanses and it purges, but it also allows things to grow and live. That's what water does. So that's why you see so many uses of the word heaven as far as sky and space. But if you only leave it there, then one day you have God coming back from outer space to get us because he's a million miles away. And I think that's a dangerous thing.

And that's why I think this descriptive term of heaven, Paul was really trying to get them to see, especially in the light of suffering. Yeah. That look, Jesus is battling the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. And so are we. And it's a joint venture that's happening when we suffer. He suffers in a way, just like when he came to Paul, it's like, why are you persecuting me? Why did he say that?

Is he persecuting him? He's in heaven. No, he's feeling the pain that his spirit-filled people are going through because you're killing my representatives. Jesus, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations.

baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That's Matthew. But Mark... But it's a very profound statement, Phil. And you're right. I think people got the wrong idea. Jesus brought it up all four times.

And you look down there, it's the same story all four times. Somebody said, why is it like that? So you can't miss it. But either he has all authority. Look, he said all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. We just read in Ephesians 1. He's brought all things together under one head. And I think people get a misunderstanding because the next book, Acts,

He's levitating and he's like, I'll come back. And they're like, well, the heaven he's gone to is a million miles away. What are we going to do now? And that's why I think Paul is right. You know what the answer is? You know what the answer is? It's the wrong answer. But the answer, most people in religious circles hear is,

believe is what do we do now? Well, let's just grind it out boys. Cause it's all going to hell in a hand basket. And it's like, that's not the picture that Jesus paints of the kingdom. The picture that he paints for the kingdom is that it's here and

And now and to come, he doesn't he doesn't oppose the spiritual to the physical. He doesn't oppose heaven to earth. These aren't two conflicting things. He's uniting going back to Ephesians one. He's uniting all things. And so it's not a it's not a further. By the way, there's a term for this. It's called Gnosticism.

which is an ancient heresy that's dealt with in the scriptures, but it's the idea that the physical is evil and bad and the spiritual is good. That is not what the Bible teaches. And unfortunately, the church has adopted these forms of Gnosticism

Along with secular culture, secular culture has a disdain for the physical world. You can see it in a lot of the sexuality stuff, which is why Nancy Peercy wrote an incredible book called Love Thy Body. Why did she use that title? Because it under the Christian worldview.

We have a very high view of the physical body. Why? Because we believe that God made the physical world. And when he made it, he said, this is very good after he made mankind. And so God is in a sinful state, but God is reconciling the entire thing to himself. And so that's even the verse you always mentioned, Jace, that the creation itself, what

What does it do? It groans with eager expectation, waiting for the sons of God to be revealed and to be liberated from his bondage decay. And there's all this language about creation itself also being liberated from this bondage. And so I think that's important for us because it's there's no power in a gospel that says that Christ is not here and he has nothing for you now. But hey, one day.

One day. That's not the gospel. The gospel is already, not yet. It's both, both and. But the new world is that there's a new creation in this old world. And there will be a new creation for the new world that's in the old world. We're new creations because we have the Spirit of God and Jesus at the right hand of God. So it's the present.

And that's what the glimpse to the world we're giving. That's how he's making his presence known. So you see the same thing with this same word, just to illustrate this. Look, it's all over the book of Hebrews. And it's in Hebrews 9, 23 and 24, which is why I'm saying I'm going to give that description of heaven that Jesus had at the right hand of God. But just to show you how this works. So in Hebrews 1, 3 and 4,

When it says the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word, he provided purification for sins. He sat down at the right hand of the majesty in heaven. So there's the noun heaven, and you're assuming where God dwells, which is true. But in Hebrews 3.1, you see this. He uses this descriptive word. I'm not going to pronounce it again, but...

The Jesus at the right hand of God and what he's actually doing. And so I'm just going to show you how people misunderstand this. So in Hebrews 3, 1, it says, therefore, holy brothers who share in the, here it is, the adjective, the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus. This is a present form. Because when we usually read that, we think, oh, he's calling us to heaven. He's calling you from heaven.

He's at the right hand of God. Fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest. And then he goes on to say what Ephesians 2 and the last two verses say of that chapter. But in verse six of Hebrews three, but Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house. He's the head of the church. We're his household. So when he's saying, fix your thoughts on Jesus, he's,

He's at the right hand of God representing us. We're here representing him. We're going to heaven. We're going to God's presence and we're going to live eternally. But there's a focus by Paul 19 times saying,

once by Jesus in John 3 to focus on what he's doing now and how we're a part of that as his body. Yeah, and there is a distance that should be recognized. I was just thinking about this when Phil quoted the Great Commission and when Jesus said, all authority on heaven and earth has been given to me. So there is a huge gap

I mean, and we could even say an infinite distance between us and God when it comes to his position in terms of authority.

but not when it comes to his proximity. His proximity is near. This is the book of Ephesians, right? Because when he says here in Ephesians 1.20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places far above. So there is a distance here, but what's the above? All rule and authority and power and dominion. He's talking about the distance there he's talking about is

is a distance of position in which Christ rules. He's so far above any power, any authority, any rule, any dominion. Why? Well, because he is the ruler of all things. And above every name, he's above all names in his position, that is named not only in this age, but also in the one to come. So he's creating a humongous distance between us and every other power that be and Christ himself. And he put all things under his feet

and gave him his head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. So he's present because if he's not present, then how can he fill all in all? So you have the closeness of God's presence. So the proximity of God, that's the whole point of Ephesians 2, God dwells in us, proximity, closeness.

God's in us position. God's far above us. And that is really the whole picture of the cross, that a God who is so far away from us and he transcends everything that we know about reality. He's above it. He created it. He spoke it into existence. He's outside of time and space. We can't even have a reference point for him in terms of our language. He's he's other than. But then the Bible says that he's here.

Before you finish, I want to bring up one point. You remember the candy they used to have when I was younger? It was called Now and Later.

I think it was now or later. Now or later? Yeah. I thought it was now and later. I think it's now and later. And here's the reason why I think it's now and later. Because when you first put it in your mouth, it was hard candy. But the longer it stayed in your mouth, then it became chewy later. So you enjoyed it now and later. I think about that when I think about this idea of what we're talking about. Zach, you mentioned about why we talk about this so often and so much.

It's because so many people enter the arena at different times of their spiritual walk. You know, what happens is you have an awareness that, wait a minute, I have been missing out on the power of Jesus and I'm going through this trial or I'm going through this difficulty. I use marriage earlier as an example. A marriage can be rocking along. Then all of a sudden it's like, whoa, wait a minute.

We're not in a good place. We got trouble. We need it now, but we need it later. And the idea is that Jesus functions and works in our lives. And decisions we make today affect not only the now, but they affect the later. I had one of our listeners, Dwight, who's a good friend of mine, send me a note. He was reading along in the Bible that Dad and I put together today.

several years ago, almost 10 years ago now. And I had written this piece about marriage and talked about my relationship with Lisa. And he just sent me a note and said, I'm so grateful that you and Lisa made a decision to stay together. Look at where you are today and look at your ability to be there. And I thought, man, he's exactly right. Decisions we make in Christ and the strength we get from the heavenly realms today are

not only affect the today, but affects our entire walk and ultimately our eternal existence. So what a blessing that we have. Let me say one thing before Jace finishes here. I think it's important too, because I didn't understand a lot of this until in the last probably 10 years, but I was raised in a very fundamentalist, what I would call fundamentalist, dare you say, legalistic Christianity. But here's how awesome God is. Even that,

Was not for nothing. Like, I appreciate like the upbringing that is flawed as it was and as flawed as we are now. So I think that it's not as you move into this understanding, it's not that the everything that we used to think was wrong and bad and full null and void. It's just that I think God is calling us.

To embody the kingdom here and now. And that sometimes, I mean, that should look like a progression in your life. It should always look like a progression. So it's not a dismissal of anything from the past. I'm thankful for my grandparents who we probably had really solid disagreements on theologically, but man, they love Jesus. And I know that they are going to live with Christ for eternity. And I'm grateful for their shoulders that I stand on. So it's not a dismissal of the past or even something that we may not have seen before.

Years ago, I'm just thankful that God continues to reveal himself in this way to us. I agree. All right, bring us home, Jay. Well, what I wanted to say, because you're going to find this ironic, the next example of this adjective of heaven being used is because when you're talking about the now and later, and even Zach just said, I mean, that's a picture of the cross, but it's also a picture of

of what Jesus is doing at the right hand of God. That is the context by which this word is used over and over and over again. And what I found fascinating is the next time it's used in Hebrews is in Hebrews 6, which is one of the most controversial verses

chapters in the whole Bible, but I want to go there for one reason. Uh-oh. This is exactly talking about the here and now to his audience writing the book of Hebrews, the Hebrew writer, and he's talking about them going on to maturity.

He's wanting them not to miss that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of their old system. Don't miss this. We've laid the foundation. That's 6, 1, and 2. But let's go on to maturity. And then he makes this statement, which is the controversial part. It is impossible, verse 4, for those who have once been enlightened, who have, and guess what word comes up here?

who have tasted the heavenly gift, this descriptive word of Jesus being at the right hand of God in the here and now. And look what it goes on to say, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. If they fall away,

to be brought back to repentance. And forget the big debate on what exactly that means. The point I want to make is, because to their loss, they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Well, you remember the verse I read in Colossians 2, where it said Jesus triumphed over the powers and the

the evil that was at work, he triumphed over them on the cross. Well, now you have a danger of people acting like the Romans because that's why they crucified people. You know why? It wasn't just that they killed people because they thought they committed a crime.

They crucified them on a cross so that they would be disgraced publicly. And then you have Paul writing to the Colossians saying, the very thing they tried to do to Jesus, he did to them, which I think is amazing. But for him to categorize Jesus as the heavenly gift using that

adjective there gives you a picture of they had missed they had heard what about it they were convinced and now they're starting to question because you know they're being persecuted

They're like, what are you saying? That Jesus, I mean, God became a man? You know they're having all this pushback from the roots that they were in. And so he's giving them a withering, I mean, a withering discussion here of saying, don't do that. But then I wanted to bring up another point because verse 7, the reason he's using this argument now, which I had missed, because that was their view of heaven. Look at the illustration he uses in verse 7.

Land that drinks in the rain, often falling on it, and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed, receives the blessing of God. He went back to how they understand the heavenly gift. He sent rain so it cleanses, it purges, it allows things to grow. But Jesus is way better.

And so that's why, but before you jump in, I want to read the next time that word is used because it's going to really make the same argument from Hebrews 6. The next place that adjective of heaven is used is Hebrews 8, 5.

And talking about their earthly sanctuaries, giving the sacrifices and all that, it says they serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and a shadow of what is in heaven. And even though that looks like a noun, it is the same word used as that adjective in that context. And so then eventually he gets to 923.

In 24, it comes up again. It was necessary then for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true, when he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence."

Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again. And so that's his point all the way back to Hebrews 6. You're missing out on God's gift to you, which is Jesus entering as your sacrifice in heaven itself to put you back with God. He does. Listen, this is what he says in Hebrews 10.

Speaking of this holy place, therefore, brothers and sisters, this is 1019. Since we have confidence to enter the most holy place, which is, by the way, in all caps, by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way open for us through the curtain, that is his body. And since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God.

with a sincere heart and with full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us, here we go again, from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess for he who promised is faithful.

And let us consider how we may spur one another towards love, good deeds, not giving up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another all the more as you see the day approaching. But listen to this warning here, another warning like Hebrews 6. If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of truth,

No sacrifice for sin is left. And I think that what this means is, same thing in Hebrews 6. Brilliant job there, Jace. This is how I would phrase it up. Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 are not saying that there is a number of sins that you can commit to which once you pass that point, God's like, oh, that's too many. I only allow 665 sins to

You just committed the 666 sin, that 666. Sorry, guys, you're out. There's no limit to God's grace. There's no limit to God's blood, the covenant of his blood. It is efficacious for all sin. What he's saying there is that if Christ is not enough for you, then there's nothing else. Exactly. We're out of time, but we've come so far. I wanted to give the last one.

before we leave, which is Hebrews 12:22. It says, "You have come to Mount Zion to the," there's that word again, "the heavenly Jerusalem," which is Jesus at the right hand of God representing us, "the city of the living God, thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven."

We've come full circle from where we started. If you want to check out Jason's sermon, WFRChurch.org, June 30th. We'll see how he does with this two-podcast discussion. See you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

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