Ep 913 | Jase Fails Missy’s Anniversary Test & Miss Kay Raves over Phil’s Caretaking Skills
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I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We've said this before, but you guys listening, there's a day or sometimes a couple of days in between recordings, but we just recorded the episode with David Leonard.

And which also Jill was in town. So Jill has joined us on Unashamed. Welcome, Jill. Glad to be here. Always fun to step in this room. Not intimidating at all. No, not at all. Well, look, I was just in Kansas City and there was a longtime listener there. She had driven down, she and her husband from Omaha. So they had driven, what, two or three hours to get to where we were. And just so she could meet us in her, number one thing was,

We love it when your wives are on the podcast, which I hear this all the time, especially from our female audience. So it's always a pleasure to have our wives on. One is it makes the husbands a little nervous. It does. Because I'm a little nervous right now. Jace, you experienced this a few episodes ago.

Yeah. I'm loaded for bear. No. Is that how you say that, bud? Yeah. You got it. But I told Missy when she was on here a couple podcasts ago, I think what I've learned through this process, and I actually said this to her about you coming on today. She was like, oh, well, y'all are just getting the wives now. And I was like, well, babe, from my perspective, like the other day she had this, it was like something,

that I would think she actually bought this out of a store. It was like a big, colorful, flowery-looking blouse. And I was making sure I didn't say anything wrong. It could have gone a lot of different ways. I know where you're going. In my world of being a wilderness guy, that is something I would not only never buy,

I just, there's, it's just something that I don't even want to think about having anywhere on me. I mean, it just, it's just so. You're a male. Yeah. I get that. I get that. Thank you, dad. It shouldn't be that way. Thank you for the common sense. Clarity. It's like, you know, she saw that.

And thought, wow, beautiful. Well, did you compliment? Oh, I did. And what I said is what I was trying to get to here. Is that y'all are like...

A beautiful flower in a briar patch. When y'all come on it, that's because I said there's some kind of magic. That needs to be like quoted or like a T-shirt. Oh, no, he's got a Jace has a list, you know, of I don't know how many T-shirt ideas he's come up with on this podcast. That's another one. Yeah. But y'all are. I mean, it's, you know, it's a nice, warm place.

I mean, a nice cool pool of water in a desert. I was like, y'all light up the room. And I was like, there's something in that. Because I think a lot of people hear us talk and look at us and

And say, you know, it just doesn't make sense. But then they meet our wives after they hear, you know, our faith in Jesus. And I think they then realize, oh, they've had a lot of help. This has been a rehabilitation. But Jace, I would say this, though, that this is and this is true. Back in the day.

Back in the day, we were good-looking guys. I think what's happened is that the women have held their... No, that's a lie. You've told yourself. I will say, Zach was...

Zach was a looker. Jace, you were too, man. I still think you're handsome. Thank you. I do. I still think you're handsome. Well, Jace thinks I'm ugly because when you walked in, he said, I mean, this doesn't make sense. He turns to me. You were over there. It is worthy of note. See, he's lied, and now you've believed the lie and rationalized. It is worthy of note when someone says about her husband, he's a looker.

Yeah. Well, that's kind of what I think. I think my wife, you know, I mean, she'll say things like that. And I'm like, you don't believe her. No, I don't believe her.

I really think it's an evidence of God somewhere in that transition of you coming to Christ and him coming to Christ, me coming to Christ, my wife. Something happened, and it's kind of to the effect of spiritual blindness in a positive way. Zach is right, because whenever I go and speak and I talk about the family, I show a picture of Dad.

In 1965, and he's got a flat top, he's got that jaw and, you know, he's got the look. He looks like everybody's all American. Yeah. And then pop in a picture of current day dad. And this is probably from 20 years ago, even. And I always ask the audience, I say, what happened?

And everybody laughs when I say that, because to Zach's point, I mean, dad looked like a normal guy from the mid 60s, good looking guy, football player. And then he becomes a duck man. And I always say, do you go into your guidance counselor? You put your feet up on his desk when you're in high school and just say, you know, I'm thinking about letting myself go. Yeah.

And I'm going to become one of the most successful spiritual voices in America, you know, for conservative things and Christianity. So, you know, obviously God had a plan and part of this deal and our wives have held up better than us. During that cycle, when I was in the process of repenting, it is interesting that I didn't wear any shoes for two years.

I don't know what that was about. Was this pre-repentance? It was pre-repentance. Pre-repentance. So when you repented, you put the shoes on. I was shoeless. Yeah.

For two years. Wintertime, Delcontin. I mean, it's amazing. You didn't get frostbitten. You probably did. I mean, I mean. There was a rallying point. Who's a man? Yeah. Yeah. That was the, that's kind of how we were raised. I look back on it now and I said, you know, that's pretty ignorant man. I mean, when you get right out to it. Well, dad, if we could take, if you took your shoes off right now and showed your feet to the audience, we would say, look like the man went without shoes for a while. Yeah.

That's exactly right. He bears the scars. We went from that to going duck hunting and preach the gospel to people, guys, hunters, and preach the gospel to them. And if they agreed that they would respond...

I would instruct them, come out of them clothes, get butt naked, and we're going to walk out here in the decors, and I'm going to baptize y'all. Well, it's such a graphic depiction of a beautiful thing. And I'm walking out there, you know.

I have waders on. They're butt naked. On that one. Well, we're all men. I never thought of nakedness in baptism. I mean, I bet that was the scene. Imagine you're in a boat and you roll through that duck hole. And there's a naked man being baptized in the decoys. You would think something real sinister is going on. Oh, you would. They repeatedly call me for the next year thanking me.

He was going back to naked and unashamed. He was going back to the beginning. That's right. This is why we need the flowers in the bar. Without this, we have a disturbing view of something beautiful. But it is counting the cost. I mean, like sometimes I wonder, we baptize people so quick. I wonder, you know, do they really? But that's a way you can really check.

Do they really mean it? Mm-hmm. What it's saying is true. I remember. I'm up to here.

Oh, no. No, this is shoes. Are you listening? Phil has brought his shoes. Hold up the, I don't know what kind of shoe it is. Hey, dude. It's the direction we were meaning to go. I figured out one leg was longer than the other one. I corrected that. He's got a heel console that's probably about, Phil, what's that, about two inches on the heel console? You wear these until they literally fall off of you. Yeah. They're there.

I think you're ready. Jill got the worst seat in the house right next to an illustration of Phil's shoes that look 30 years old. I don't know. I don't know if that was worse or the naked baptism. I mean, either way, I'm just like, okay, let's do this. Jill said, what are we going to talk about? I said, I don't know. We'll figure it out when we get on there. I do remember, though, a guy in the middle of the night coming down here to Phil's place.

And it was snowing in Louisiana, which is why I remember it. It doesn't snow here very often. And it was less than 32 degrees. And he was trying to get Phil to baptize him. It was in the middle of the night. And Phil was like, I mean, it's snowing. There's ice around the banks. I mean, Phil was making a play to we can go. We have...

access to a church building that's unlocked. I think they lock it now, but back then it was unlocked. And he, while quoting the gospel of Jesus, was like, let's go. And Phil said, you got some old clothes? And he was like, oh no. And me, him, and Phil walked down there in the middle of the night, and I held the flashlight until he took his clothes off.

And a very, very white, pale man went under that water. And I'm telling you, he came up blue. He literally turned blue. I love that. And he was just hollering like praises to God. He literally acted like he felt no pain. I mean, it was just, it was a surreal. I don't think he did. A surreal memory. But I thought, you know, there's a man who,

Who's falling in love with Jesus. It's oblivious. He don't care. He just wants to get in the water. We had some stories like that when we lived down and had a pond behind our house. And remember that one girl? It was freezing cold. She came out of the water.

And I mean, it was like a shock to her system. I mean, it was like the grasp of it was so shocking to the system. It was a cold plunge before cold plunge was a thing. Also, I went down there one night and baptized a couple in the pond and there was a piece of tin there.

Right there on the edge of the conga, I didn't see it. It was an old piece of tin, and I hit it with my foot. And I mean, I about cut my entire toe off, coming out of the water after I baptized him. And so we ended up in the emergency room getting my whole pinky toe stitched back on. Why does this stuff keep happening to you? That's funny. You remember that. What I remember about that baptism, yes, I remember you cut your foot off, but I've never seen this happen before.

When this guy, he comes out of the water and in that moment, a shooting star just, don't you remember? Oh, wow. He looked up in the heavens and he just said, thank you, Jesus. And then a star, like a meteor shower. And this is a guy that had been...

in major drug addiction for probably about two years. He's a young guy, probably 18 years old and him and his girlfriend and they were just, both of them were just living for the devil and they both gave their life to Jesus that night and that was pretty powerful. That was so powerful. And honestly, I think about, you're talking about the women, that's why you guys got girls like us is because you love Jesus. I believe that. The thing about Zach that I love is

And it's funny that I'm saying this because I'll be honest with y'all. This is kind of a raw week. Yesterday was our anniversary and...

We didn't do anything for our anniversary, and he fell asleep on the couch while we were trying to maybe watch a movie and have pizza. It wasn't the best anniversary. And we got in a fight. I'm a little bit. I'm still a little raw. I'm going to be honest with y'all. I don't know how to do the fake it, but I'm not good at that. I'm like, well, you're mad at me still. Why are you talking about how great I am? How long have y'all been married? 23 years. On the 23rd. Yesterday was our golden year anniversary.

I mean, I thought maybe we might, you know. To be fair, there's more to the story than what she's telling you, but this is not a counseling session, but there is more to the story. It's turned into one. I think it is a counseling session.

But the truth, it really is true. Like, yes, I'm a little sore on him right now. We got to work on some things. I don't know. Maybe we can talk it through on this podcast. We'll see. But his love for the Lord and the way he has always... And I think he got this from you and Kay. Oh, my word. He's always... Our home is always open, no matter what time, no matter what it looks like. And...

That was uncomfortable for me marrying into him because I'm way more about what things look like. Like I want, if people are coming to my house, I want it to look perfect. I want it to be clean. I want, you know, all that stuff. And Zach set me straight early on. He was like, that's not how we're rolling. Like we're going to be a place for hospitality. People can come, they can be loved on. And, and,

That's why I love you. Well, it's funny on the way here, I called Kay because as you know, David Leonard was just on the podcast and he brought his family with him, which by the way, they knew about Duckmen 1. I mean, that's... That's a true fan. That's way back. That's way back. So they know and I called Kay. I said, hey, they want to come by. I want you to meet them.

And I just called her on the way down here. Well, my house isn't clean and all that. I said, well, they're from South Arkansas. She said, oh, that's fine then. Tell them to come on out. They're like us. They won't care that my house is dirty. But I mean, but y'all's house has always, it's never been like this perfect, perfectly. It's just been open. That's right.

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I love that it's raw. I love that you guys are real. That's one of the reasons we love you guys. But also, that's one of the reasons why people love the podcast is you were just folks that are willing to talk about whatever. And I love when I come to visit you guys because your house is always open. It's usually full of teenagers or college kids every time that I come up there. But there's the reason that people gravitate to

to a home where there's love and where there's spirituality and where there's things that are drawn is because they don't feel that we're usually where they are. And so people are drawn to that. They're drawn to hospitality and mom and dad did instill that in all of us. And I think we get it from them and it just kind of continues on going forward. You know, you read these texts, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power, put on the foot. We'll cover this in the upcoming weeks.

Take your stand against the devil's schemes. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers.

the authorities and the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm. Therefore, put on the full armor of God. So when the day of evil comes, you may be able to take your stand. And after you've done everything, just stand. Stand firm then, you know, with the belt of truth.

Buckle around your waist and the breastplate of righteousness in place. With your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. You read these texts and you say, man, it's a good trip. Oh, it is. It's interesting you said that, Phil, because when we had our last guest on, we were talking about songs, and I wanted to bring up Ephesians 5 because, you know,

After the first three chapters of Ephesians, which is this elaborate God plan that would include everyone to be saved. Grace is mentioned over a dozen times in the book of Ephesians, and I think that's worthy of that. Make up the shield of faith. And so when he gets to Ephesians 5 on how we practically...

are living a spirit-filled people jesus at the right hand of god in the heavenly realms which says that he's doing battle in chapter 3 verse 11 we read this a few podcasts ago doing battle against the spiritual forces of evil and in the heavenly realms but he gives to ephesians 5 and he says be very careful this is verse 15 how you live not as wise but

as wise making the most of every opportunity because the days are evil which is the same phrase that you just read when he said the spiritual for the spiritual war going on it says uh when the day of evil comes and it made me think when is the day if it comes yeah when is the day of evil and i thought to myself

It's pretty much every day it's coming. And so then he, he, in Ephesians five, he says, you know, don't get drunk, but be filled with the spirit, speak to one another with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. And then he gets into marriage, which is what's crazy is then he makes this illustration of, yes, we have roles in our marriage. Husbands, you know, love your wives, right?

You get to be Jesus in that he gave his life for the church. Why submit to your husband as Christ is the head of the body? You get to surrender in that form, Jesus becoming a man and humbling himself in that role.

And then he says in verse 32, this is a profound mystery, but I'm talking about Christ and the church. Yeah. That's the bigger picture. So when you said that, why I fell in love with Zach is because he loves Jesus. And I've always thought that.

as the foundation for Missy and I, because we, like y'all have all kinds of drama that come up, you know, we're so different. And, and when, when you're in these spiritual battles, especially when kids are involved with our own kids, you know,

Because the pressure mounts, you're like, why is this person, why is this human not functioning like they love Jesus under my watch? Because I'm really big about when I read this Ephesians 5 and 6, I think, this is one of my posts, this house. This is my post for Jesus. And I tell Missy that all the time, especially when we don't agree. And she's like, well, you need to support me in this. And I'm like, no.

And it's a very tricky conversation we have because I'm like, babe, I'm like, babe, look, in this case, I'm married to Jesus. And the support you're asking me to do, I do not think this lines up with my marriage to Jesus. And so it's very tricky because I'm like, I love you. You have to remember, Jace, this is a profound, what you just said, mystery.

But I'm talking about Christ and the church here. That's what he says. Exactly. And so that's why I've said before, you don't always support your wife in the name of Jesus if it's not supporting your overall view of what's right and true in Jesus. And we get into these kind of situations, especially when you're having battles of, you know, we both, both of our families have welcomed Christ.

children that we didn't give birth to into our homes. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. That's a tight bond there. Yeah, exactly. But I love it. You get a picture there, though, of how this represents us in the church is we're moving towards unity and

Which is what he says at the very beginning of Ephesians, Ephesians 1, as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him, things in heaven and on earth. So you see the diversity of different people in marriage. The marriage here is an illustration, not to your point.

Coming together into one. And the same thing is true of the church. We're coming together, Jew, Gentile, male, female, slave, free. We're all coming into one body. We're different members, but we're one body. But I was thinking when you were in the last podcast, you said something. I wanted to dive into it more, but we ran out of time.

Because even in the spirit of Jill confessing our sin publicly here in the podcast. Yeah. I've confessed your sin. Yeah, that's right. That's my sin. I was trying to say we all have these. This is the battle. The fact that we care.

And are willing to talk about shows you we're in the fight where all the problems start is when we go to our separate rooms and act like nothing's happening. Yeah, keep fighting. Give an image of everything's great. Yeah. And when it's not, this is this is the life we're called to do. That's why there's so much.

talking here about suffering in the name of Jesus. And too, when he talks about Christ and the church, like the church at large, that's one of the things that God has shown me just how valuable community in Christ is. Because I think about in parenting my kids, this was just a perfect example that happened the other night. We're going through something with my son

we've told him all the right things. Like we, he knows all the right things. Right. And he has people pouring all the right things to him, pouring into him. Anyway, we go out to camp to see everybody. Cause the kids are in town. They're going to do a little show. And Sadie is speaking out at camp. And, um, her message was just like, um,

I mean, spot on. It's what you call Sadie read his mail. She did. She was reaching his mailbox and was giving her own personal testimony. And the details of it, I won't get into it because I don't want to confess. Jill might want to confess this sympathetically. I don't do that. No, but it was just so beautiful because...

He heard that. Yeah. And it was things, you know, but it was at the right time, at the right place. God used one of his fellow believers to speak truth into my son. And it just was so beautiful for him in that moment. And anyway, that's the thing to me I love. Even when I feel weak as a mom and have those moments where I'm like, oh, man, I've messed this up.

My kids have a community of believers that are speaking truth into them. Yeah. And they may say the same thing we've already said, but they hear it differently. Well, you weren't here in the last podcast when Jay said this, but I know you'll totally agree with this because me and Jill and I have had this conversation over and over and over and over again. But your story about going up to Nashville when you were in a family crisis and you

not confronting your son, going to your son and just asking for forgiveness, which is another way of saying confessing, right? And we've talked about this because we've made tons of mistakes in our parenting. We know that. And I think we all know that. But we don't ever come across like we should say that. But I thought that I actually told my son in that conversation, I said, I've just had a realization here

that I should have communicated this before. Because we're so...

telling them what to do, listen to me, trust me, don't make the same mistakes. But then we never acknowledge, look, some of what I'm going to do is going to be a mistake. Yeah. Yes. And you're going to have to just forgive me. Yeah. But I think you need to communicate. I think the spirit of confession is just as important in raising your family and leading your home and being part of a home as doing it right.

Because I think we think, oh, man, we're going to mess our kids up if we fail in this moment. But even like what Dave was talking about with his dad, like there's going to be things that are for failures and perceived failures. And some of the I mean, some of his fears may have been partially true, but it wasn't all true. And it was interesting how the therapist brought him to that place. But when you kind of come in with that with that spirit of confession, like, you know what?

We didn't do it perfect. Yeah. And, and we repent, but that's not right. But we got to move. Like that's where the grace is, is not just for our own souls, but also in, in how we parent, how we live as a family.

Confession brings healing, but it also opens up a space for your kids to say, to think my parents aren't perfect. So that means I'm safe to not be perfect with them too. That's the thing. If you were to ask me, what's your greatest parenting advice? And I would say,

pause before I even gave that because I think in my mind, well, the verdict's still out on my kids. I used to think that. And then I stopped saying that because what I realized I was saying was that

I can't speak any truth unless my kids end up perfect. Well, my kids aren't going to end up perfect because they're already not perfect because they're sinners. And so, but my greatest parenting advice is to make confession a part of your normal routine in your home. Because not just for your kids, but for yourself. Because for years, I thought I had to

look like we had it all together. Your kids know if you're having trouble in your marriage, you're not going to keep that from them. Whether you tell them or not, they're going to sense it. They're going to know. But when you open it up and you're honest, like, yeah, we're going through something.

Your dad forgot our anniversary. Like that was not, I didn't forget the anniversary. I just use that as an example. But my point is, Jill, Jill, did you not know this was going to happen? Do you remember? So the wedding, I was, I was one of the officiants at the wedding. And, and so we get up there. This is turning into a bash Zach hour. We get, we get into the moment. I mean, the key moment, which there's not a lot of things you got to remember. One of them is when it's time for the rings.

because now we're going to change the vows that will bind you guys for your entire life. When Zach looked at me with a sheer panic, looked on his face and realized he left the ring in his pocket in the dressing room. And then we had to deal with that. This should have let you know, Jill, that 23 years later, he would forget things like your anniversary because he forgot the ring at the beginning. So this is a lifelong struggle is my point. I mean, are we even,

married we're married are we really is that we really married if you forget i'll take some of the blame with zach on this because look i asked my wife one year it was in our 20 you know i've been married almost 34 now but in the 20 year anniversary there i said what do you what do you want for our anniversary

And what I didn't realize in the moment, she didn't like that question. Now I'm looking at it as hindsight. And she's like, well, let's just not get each other anything this year. I'm like, okay, great. Well, so when the day of the anniversary came, what was I supposed to think? She gave me a little bag. I said, I thought we weren't getting each other anything. Exactly.

And she never addressed it again. It was a test, Jace. I thought. That you failed. But I spent the next year thinking, this woman's crazy. We had an agreement. I followed the agreement. But you're mad. You're mad about the agreement. Why did you agree? That took me about a year to realize, okay.

The original question is where it went wrong. I should have just got her something. Don't ask the question because she thought that question was ridiculous. She gave a ridiculous answer that I thought wasn't ridiculous. Actually, she probably would have wanted you to be like, no, no, no. This is our anniversary. We're going to honor this. That's what I wanted. That should have been your response. And in fact, you said, you know what, Missy?

I'm going to surprise you. You don't even worry about it. I'm just going to surprise you. That's what you need to do next. Well, that's what I've been doing since. There you go. But I'm saying that was. You learned. That was our, what happened to y'all yesterday, that was the year. Yeah. It was, it got weird. Because it just was a terrible anniversary. As the years roll by, you look toward the ones who've got the oldest record. Yeah. And it helps.

Yeah, I think it does help Phil. So I called Kay on the way down here, and I think I may have said this already, but David and those guys going over there, and I said, how are you feeling? She said, well, you know, I had an issue with my feet this morning, but you know what Phil did? He put my socks on for me. Can you believe that he would do that? Your Uncle Phil, would you ever have imagined that he would turn into the kind of man that

that would serve me like that and just love me. And he, and he just spoke so positively. She probably spent what Jill 10, 15 minutes telling me about how, how grateful she was. Good job, Phil. Well, that was going to be my point was then later on a couple of years ago, my son Reed, I asked him because I knew their anniversary was going up. I was like, where are you getting there? And he's like,

I mean, it's so hectic. We got the new ones. We kind of decided not to do anything. I said, do not believe that. I was like, that is a spirit of the evil one coming in your marriage. That's good advice. I said, you go get her the greatest thing that you can afford without saying a word. He's like, you serious, Dad? I'm like, oh, I'm dead serious. Okay.

I've already seen this play out. And he called and thanked you, I'm sure. He's like, good move, Dad. I was like, oh, yeah, never believe that. So I threw Zach under the bus earlier.

Now, let me now let me pull him out and I'm going to share something. I don't think I've ever shared this with you before since we're just opening up on the podcast. When you were sick and I don't remember what it was, it was maybe after you had one of your kids, but you had something wrong with you. It was very serious. And of course, Zach has always called on me to, you know, being the older cousin to be there in his life. But he was so upset and so fearful that.

it makes me emotional about losing you and what you meant to him just as his wife. And, you know, in this, of course, it's tied up. You're also a mother at this point as well, but I'll just never forget that depth of love for you and understanding. And that's kind of what, you know, Zach just described with dad and mom, when you go through seasons and I'm emotional about it now, because I'm going through it with Lisa and,

where, you know, the person can't be, they can't hold up their end. They can't be the coworker because there's something going on and you feel that burden. But you also know in that moment, that's when it really matters. And that's when you step up at the most. So, so I'll just never forget that conversation, Zach, and just how emotional you were and me trying to encourage you and say, well, let's pray about this. You know, God's got great things in store for you. I don't think this is it for Jill.

But at the same time, I think those moments are the one we realize how passionate that our love is for each other. And that's when we're blessing them. That's good, Al. Jill.

That was a scary time. Can we agree to just forgive each other? Is this going to be the moment? This is the moment of reconciliation. You can't argue with what Al just said. But you said something, Al, to take it to Ephesians. I mean, I think that's what the whole thing in Ephesians is moving kind of to the center point, I would say, in Ephesians 5 of the marriage being the

the picture of this, but it is this idea of a union that is not predicated on

us performing for each other, but it's a self-sacrificial love that's displayed in the cross, by the way. I mean, I think that's the core of who God is in his nature, by the way. And we both get to do that, these roles in Jesus, which is making Jesus's presence known, because this is really, the backdrop is all, this is Jesus at the right hand of God, who's poured out his spirit into human beings, right?

So you show a couple, a man and a woman who are showing Jesus to each other. It becomes something that the world sees as a picture of Jesus's presence. That is the message.

that we're presenting in our lives. Oh, 100%. And I think that's the powerful thing of this. I mean, this goes way back to what I'd like to do when we get there, because I was listening to some interesting sermons on this. When you look at the opposite of that, and the couple that comes to mind is Ahab and Jezebel, when you get roles where you have one controlling role

aspect of it, which was Jezebel. And you get the husband who is just tolerating and just weak-willed, not saying no. And you look at what happens. And when you read those stories in 1 and 2 Kings, it's literally the opposite depiction of

of what Jesus represents with spirit-filled people. You now have people who are married to the control of the evil one and look at the results of it. And even to the point of Jesus brings it up in Revelation 2, talking about a church allowing the spirit of Jezebel into their church. Well, you just look at our community and our culture and the breakdown of the husband-wife, father-mother relationship to the community and what happens. Mm-hmm.

The same identical deconstruction of culture itself. That's why I say this is bigger. This is God's family showing you what a family looks like, which is revealing all his characteristics of grace and forgiveness. But even leadership and men rising up to be assertive.

Instead of just, oh. It's not a domineering. It's assertive. I love that word, but it's like, I'm going to fight for my marriage and for protection of this. The sermon I heard was fantastic on it because the point he was making was that assertion in Christ does look

In different ways, it's like sometimes you're a line for the Lord, but sometimes you're a lamb. There are times where you're seeing you're seeing the character of Jesus. Well, sometimes he's a line and sometimes he's a lamp. The fact is, he's being assertive with God as his ultimate goal.

One that he's trying to please and bow down to. And that's what we need. We need men to rise up when it says this. You know, he's the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body. And it is realizing that we're doing this together in our roles. And so we need men who rise up and say no.

This is not godly. This is not going to happen on my watch. And you also need women to understand that role where they're not trying to dominate because the man wouldn't. And so it becomes a control thing, trying to control everything. And so then maybe using sex as a weapon, which is what Jezebel was actually doing. And so you get into that world. But I think it's a good picture example.

to look at the other side of it and what we do in our culture when we get to Ephesians 5 in more detail. Yeah, there's like two pictures in my mind of like, to illustrate what you just said, that juxtapose each other.

One is, would be the spirit of Jezebel, which I would, I would equate that to a black hole. I spent a lot, there was a time period in my life where I spent a lot of time reading a lot about physics and, uh, and how I just kind of obsessed with cosmology and all this, all that, all that whole world. And,

And the interesting thing about a black hole, it's kind of, I'll try to, I don't want to get too deep into it, but no pun intended, but a black hole at the center of it has this thing called a singularity, which is, it's a point of like infinite density and it pulls everything in around it. So there's, nothing can escape the gravitational pull of a black hole. Yeah.

except for Hawking radiation, but not like everything around it. It pulls it in because the, the, the, the center of it is so dense. So, uh,

Physicists jokingly say that black holes are self-centered because that's like literally what they are physically. And so it pulls everything in around it. And I mean, and so the idea like that hydron collider, have you heard about this thing? It's like this. No, I don't read this kind of stuff. It's way over my head. Well, this is where I feel the need for a bumper sticker. A bumper sticker slogan? Slogan.

The black hole is self- Okay, I won't go off on the black hole, but a black hole just- A hydro collider. What do you do, Jill, when he gets into this? Oh, I mean, sometimes we have fights about that. Okay, good. Hey, hold on, hold on.

So let's get practical now. Okay. What does it mean? Okay. Black hole pulls in everything around it. Yeah. And so when you're in sin, like literally when you are self-centered, that is the essence of sin. You do, you pull everything in around you. It's just a consumption, consumption, consumption. The picture that Jesus gives of the kingdom is the opposite of a black hole. It's a fountain.

The woman at the well, if you drink the water that I have to give to you, it will become a spring in you welling up to eternal life. So it's an overflow and it's outward. So the picture of the inner life of God is that. I mean, Christ, think about it. Christ comes out, the Son of God comes out of the triune God and condescends in the form of the man we call Jesus.

So he's flowing out of God. And then he takes on the nature of a servant, and then he sacrifices and he dies for our sins. He's buried and raised on the third day. So it's this idea, though, of pouring out, even in marriage. What does it say in Genesis whenever he says he made them in his image, male and female? And then what do they do?

be fruitful and then multiply so then kids and create and so even in the consummation of a love between a man and a woman the consummation of that love actually Gives birth literally to new life. And so in God's economy Everything is flowing out in Satan's economy Everything is being pulled in and it's dead It's a death work as opposed to a life work and that's what God's calling us to is that is that that that spirit of life is

No, I love where you got to. So I would see that illustration and go, it's like I was on a dirt road with potholes and confusing signs. But once I got to the destination, I thought, well, it was worth it.

So it was your story. The potholes was me struggling through. The black hole and then those words I'd never heard before. That was the confusing sign. Hydrocollider. Yeah, hydrocollider was a sign that said, you know, it didn't say really where I was headed, but it was an interesting sign. I received that. Okay. Well, I think the battle is, too, is like archetypes.

Like our kids and us too, like we're being told like, you know, that you are the center of your own universe. Like you can do whatever you want to do. Be who you want to be. Like that is the message. Like whatever makes you happy, but the verdict is in, they're not happy and we're not happy. So apparently the black hole is,

It's not working. It's not working. It's just not. And that's why so many kids are depressed and so many kids are searching, which sounds dark, but to me, I...

I look at it as a perfect ministry opportunity because the world is desperate for something that will bring real fulfillment. Yeah. And we know what that is. Yeah. Yeah. Jill's reading a book right now by Jonathan Haidt. The Anxious Generation. Anxious Generation. But I mean, it's addressing that.

really this mental health crisis that are, I mean, everything that the secular utopian vision that was promised to us, like we're living it out and then the verdict's in and everybody's miserable. And so, yeah, we're actually seeing this in our church right now of how receptive people are to the gospel more than we've ever seen in our entire ministry. We've never seen an outpouring of the Holy Spirit like this, but people coming out of very, very,

secular worldviews, very, I mean, a lot of different like new age mystics and we're coming in and they're like, but they've got to the end of this thing and they're like, man, we've kind of reached the top. Like we built the Tower of Babel

And we're miserable. Yeah. It's kind of encouraging in a way. What you're really describing, because Jace brought up Ahab and Jezebel earlier. Yeah. You know, that whole concept even way back then was a time when things had gotten so bad in Israel's culture in terms of, you know, bowing down to the evil one that Elijah literally thought he was the only guy left. Mm-hmm.

You know, and so like, I mean, and so Zach, what you're describing now in current day is it feels like sometimes that most of our culture has just gone the way of the world.

Well, that's you can say, well, this is terrible. I'm the only one left. We can be like Elijah or we can be like God who says, yeah, what an opportunity. Now you've got a lot of people. That's where I was going with that. I mean, the spirit of Elijah is I mean, it came through John the Baptist. Then people thought, oh, Jesus, maybe he's Elijah. Yeah, because he was willing to take on.

the powers that be selfishness sin the evil powers the culture i mean whatever it was he would dare to go out and be assertive and now he does that through us and so you know just because if you have a man and a woman ahab and jezebel

When you look at marriages, I mean, the man might have the spirit of Jezebel and the woman might have that spirit. Because I do think the fact that Jesus brought it up a thousand years later in that letter to the church at Thyatira shows you that there's a spirit of that that you see in our culture today. I mean, look, go watch 10 commercials about a family setting.

The father is always the idiot. He can't put two sentences together. The woman is like running everything. And it's like, why does the dad always have to be just an idiot? It's just amazing that it happens over. You don't notice it till you do. And I'm like, what?

Are they all idiots? Yeah. I think it's intentional. It's intentional from the evil one to he wants to destroy that family unit. And I think that men, right?

Right now, I mean, I think men are under attack like no other time in our, at least in my lifetime, which is why I think like David's song, Good Man, there's a few others I've seen kind of pop it up now. Like men are needing to be ministered to because I think that's the persona, right? Is that men are idiots. And if a man shows any type of assertive behavior,

Well, then he's, that's toxic masculinity. So it's, but the truth is, is that there is a biblical, in fact, you know what? We need to have Nancy Piercy on the podcast. She wrote a book recently. I think it was something recovering women.

recovering from toxic, it's something about the war on, the toxic war on masculinity. That's the name of the book. But I read it and it is a prophetic book written for our generation and our time. But I think you're right. I think, but what God wants to do is he wants to bring families together and the evidence is in the spirit of it. What does the spirit of this feel like? I mean, that's a good, like, does the spirit of this feel peace-filled?

Or what you would say, Phil, peace is the rarest of commodities. It's peace of mind. Yep. Does it give you peace of mind?

Or does the spirit of this fracture you in your inner self? Does it make you more anxious? Does it lead you away from community and intimacy and connection and vulnerability? Or on the flip side, does it make you more vulnerable and experience peace? And I think that's how you check the spirit of the age to see what it means. Well, Dad read that passage in Ephesians 6 earlier.

I saw a video this weekend of the most popular person in our culture, Taylor Swift, that had a concert and she was leading a chant. She actually had all these young, mostly girls, but young people in her audience, probably 100,000 plus people saying F the patriarchy. That was what she was getting them to repeat.

back to her and she was explaining how that had destroyed our culture and our past and so it just told me exactly what we read earlier what you guys have been talking about Zach is that that's what we're up against that's the spirit of the evil one working through people in our culture to say everything that God has established for good we're going to go against it and so and part of that Al is we can look at

the sins of the past and acknowledge them, I think what happens is you take an abusive patriarchy, which there has been that in families and things, but that's not biblical patriarchy. Mm-hmm.

That's not biblical masculinity. But what the devil wants to do is he wants to take the worst versions and the things that aren't biblical masculinity, but are called masculinity, and then he wants to attach what's biblical to that. Right.

And this is in Piercy's book, by the way. She had referenced a study where they had looked at the most abusive men in America. These are the most violent men in America against their spouses in all of our culture. And they were divided up into several groups. And the most peaceful men towards their spouse, the lowest incidence of spousal abuse was

was men who, I think it was evangelical men, but there's a caveat, who attended church once a week on average. The most abusive men in America, guess who they were? Self-proclaimed Christians who did not attend church. So what the study was showing is, you can take that and say, oh, religious men are the most abusive. Well, no, that's not true. It's when you categorize it, just because someone...

to be a Christian doesn't mean that they're living it out. If you go to church, if you have weekly church attendance and you're like part of a community, like that's that the studies show these are the least, least abusive men on the planet, you know? And then by contrast, the ones who claim the name of Christ, but don't actually live it, that happens to be the most abusive. I thought that was an interesting stat. So, so Zach, we're out of time, but, but,

We need to have Jill back on because we've got a great discussion going, Jill, that we have to finish. And Zach's going to get Nancy Piercy on the podcast. We'll have Nancy Piercy on. Jill, you cannot confess my sins if you come back on the podcast. I got more. Thank you, Jill. It was good to be here. Bye, y'all. See you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

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