Pastor Kills “Sister-Wife” After She Gave Birth to Their Baby: The Case of Marie Carlson
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No purchase necessary. VGW Group. Void where prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to True Crime with Kendall Ray. Thank you so much for joining me today. And if you're new, then welcome. So happy to have you. So today, guys, we have a pretty wild case. I mean, the details in this one truly shocked me. It is just...

Hard to put into words. I mean, it's really unbelievable. We're going to be talking about a mother who was just really trying to get her life back together when she ended up coming across the wrong people. She really trusted them as strangers who were trying to help her. And it ended up turning into what they called a throuple situation.

and how this all unfolded, yeah, it's just mind-blowing and incredibly sad. We're going to be talking about the murder of Marie Carlson. Now, this one really could have gone unsolved.

I mean, the guy who did this absolutely, in my opinion, could have gotten away with it. It took a couple years to catch him, but thank God they finally did. Marie deserved so much better than what she got in the end of her life. And I have so many thoughts, so I just want to go ahead and jump in, not waste any more time because there is quite a bit to go over here. So let's start with more information about Marie. Marie Jane Carlson was born on October 7th, 1974 in the Philippines to a single mother,

But she was taken in by an American man who ended up raising her in the United States with his other children. And really right away, Marie formed an extremely close bond with one of his other children, Esther. And deep down, the girls always felt like they were sisters. And I'm sure a lot of you can relate to being so close with someone, maybe a friend, that you feel that you're sisters sometimes.

And that's definitely how they felt. But turns out, they actually were sisters. After a few years of Marie living with them, their dad revealed that he was actually Marie's biological father as well, which they were super happy about. I'm not sure exactly why that was kept secret. I mean, people have their reasons, I guess. But once they found out and it was confirmed that the feeling they had always had that they were sisters somehow...

was because they actually were, was huge for them, which obviously finding this out just made them that much closer. And they were so close, in fact, that when they got a little older, they ended up moving into an apartment together that was behind a karaoke bar, which was a major score for them, because that's one thing you should know about Marie. She loved karaoke, which I love learning about her because I also think karaoke is really fun.

I feel like I haven't really done it in my life, but it just looks fun. But yeah, she and her sister were regulars at this karaoke bar, and they loved to spend their nights singing together and created a lot of lifelong memories. Esther says that her sister was someone who was naturally magnetic, and most people just couldn't help but be drawn to her. She was not just full of life, but she was life itself. She was just one of those type of people who always put others before herself

and really made an effort to lift up those around her. And one of the ways that she did this was by constantly pointing out other people's beauty. Her sister says that Marie always wore pink, that was her favorite color, and loved to use the word beautiful to describe other people, and really never hesitated to let someone else know when she saw their beauty, which I think...

is a beautiful thing about her. People just seem to be very attracted to her energy. And one of those people who were captivated by her magnetic pull was Jeff Carlson, which you can probably tell by the name.

he ended up becoming her husband. Jeff ended up marrying Marie after they quickly fell in love and together they also had a beautiful baby girl named Paris. Also around this time, Marie was pursuing a college degree in criminal justice and after graduating, she got a job working as a booking deputy in Colorado. And what's also super cool is she had dreams of one day joining the FBI, which

I think we can all agree is pretty badass. But there was something that Marie really always struggled with, and that was her mental health. And I'm sure many of us can relate to that getting in the way of doing what you want to do in life. It not only, you know, caused issues in her career, but also in her relationships. Marie struggled on and off with her mental health pretty much throughout her life. And eventually she did get a diagnosis for bipolar disorder, which...

I'm sure, you know, it's always a bittersweet thing to get that diagnosis because it's validating to hear, to, you know, finally get those answers. Things can start making sense, but it's obviously a lot to swallow and...

learn about and adjust to. So maintaining stability during this time was definitely not easy for her. And for as hard as she tried, her mental health was just not in a place where she was able to take great care of herself. And sadly, it did end up resulting in the end of her marriage with Jeff. But I do want to be clear that he was...

always very supportive of her. They ended on good terms. They just mutually decided it wasn't a good fit. They really were able to maintain a positive relationship, not only for their daughter, which is admirable, but also because there were really no hard feelings. I mean,

there was still support for each other both ways, which is cool and kind of rare. They just knew they each had to put themselves first, and so they did. And for a while, Marie had Paris in her custody, but after some time, she ultimately agreed that Jeff would be the more stable parent to raise her because she was struggling so much. And it really wasn't a quick or easy decision. She had to really think about it

you know, put what is best for Paris over what she wanted, which is really being a good parent, in my opinion. A lot of it was because Marie was hardly in one place for long enough to really set down roots and build that stability. And at the end of the day, Jeff was just able to provide Paris with the stability that she needed. And like I said, I really commend her for doing what was best for Paris, even if it wasn't the easiest decision.

and it's not like she just disappeared from her life she was constantly in touch with her daughter visited her as much as she could she talked to her all the time on the phone and you know in the meantime she was doing her best to get to a better place mentally to straighten out her life and jeff was super supportive of this

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Now, in an effort to rebuild her mental health and build stability in her life, she ended up moving to Fort Walton Beach in Florida, which is on the Emerald Coast. I was actually just down there in Destin. What a beautiful area. I could see how moving there would be very good for your mental health. And when she got down there, she ended up getting a job at a coffee shop. Now, this coffee shop was actually inside of a local church. And it was through this job that she ended up getting involved in the church. And...

was introduced to the people who were running it. Calvary Emerald Coast Church was run by local pastor James Flanders, who was known for his casual yet inspiring sermons and really charismatic guy with a big heart and

And truthfully, people loved him. And he actually started posting a lot of videos of his sermons on YouTube, which, you know, helped draw even more people into the church and helped grow a pretty decent sized congregation. All of my life.

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And James wasn't the only one who was known for his big heart.

His wife, Tanya, was in charge of the women's ministry, and she also had a really good reputation for giving back to her community. And so when Marie started getting involved in the church, they seemed to show her that same generosity that the two of them were known for. It started with them helping pay some of her bills, but in October of 2009, she ended up moving into their home.

in Walton Beach, which actually made the Flanders the third family to take her in throughout her lifetime. First, as I explained earlier, was her biological father, of course. And then second was a woman named Alice Barber, who actually went by Kay for the most part. And she took in Marie when she was 18 years old and really struggling and ended up being a hugely influential and important person in Marie's life, really incredibly.

kind of a motherly figure for her. Kay really had so much love for Marie and always called her Rosie, which I loved. And she said she did that because she was always just Rosie and happy. I bring her up because she ends up playing an important role in this case, which I will explain a little later on. But first, I want to explain Marie's living situation with the Flanders. Like I said, Marie moved in with James and Tanya Flanders in October.

October of 2009 and then in 2010 she ended up moving to Arizona and lived with James's family and I can't say I really understand why she did this or I mean there wasn't any information available as to that decision but

But either way, it didn't last long and she ended up moving back to Fort Walton Beach eventually and moved back in with the Flanders once again. But when she returned, something was different because Marie ended up becoming pregnant while she was living in Arizona. And so to explain this to people within the church...

Everyone was told that she was dating an abusive guy in Arizona who got her pregnant and then just left. And according to this version of the story, Marie wanted to terminate the pregnancy, but James and Tanya, being the kind people they claimed to be, keyword claimed, stepped in and agreed to adopt the baby from her. However, Tanya's inner circle of close friends were hearing something different.

quite different, something that they were sworn to secrecy about. They heard that Marie was actually acting as a surrogate for the Flanders because they had struggled with infertility, many, many miscarriages, couldn't have children of their own, but desperately wanted to. And so Marie was kind enough to help them out. Now, at first, these friends of Tanya's

were told that they didn't want to pay for IVF. Obviously, it's very expensive. So they did kind of an at-home situation with a turkey baster, which I think a lot of people do this. I've been hearing more lately of people doing this. Pretty interesting. And definitely would save a lot of money. But anyway, it doesn't really matter because it turns out that that wasn't true. Because eventually...

This group of friends were told that they actually did things the old-fashioned way, if you know what I mean. Which Tanya said she was completely okay with. Someone else from the church, someone who was also close to the Flanders, heard that they made an arrangement with Marie where she would stick around for the first three months to nurse the baby, but after the three months, she would leave for good. And that she was basically, quote,

gifting them this baby for all that they had done to help her. However, almost none of those versions of the story ended up being true. The only parts that were true was that Marie was actually pregnant and James was the father and that they did it the old-fashioned way. But of course...

They did not want everyone knowing that that's what went down. I mean, of course, they had to think about what the congregation would think of him having sex with another woman who wasn't his wife. They figured that, you know, wouldn't be super well received by the congregation. Regardless of all the different stories, though, everyone seemed to be under the impression that this was a mutually agreed on situation, that everyone was happy with this whole setup.

And that, you know, Marie was happy to give them this baby, this child that they couldn't have on their own. It all seemed well until three months after the baby was born. That's when everything changed.

baby Grace was born. And October 19th, 2011, a group text was sent out to a handful of people in Marie's life explaining that there was something she'd always wanted to do and that she was finally going to get to do it. And the text reads, yesterday I left Fort Walton Beach. There is something I have been waiting to do for a very long time and there will be no better time than now to do it. I

I didn't tell any of you what I've been planning or that I was about to leave because you probably would have tried to talk me out of it.

I appreciate and love all of you. And like I said, the text was sent to just a handful of people, and that included her siblings, Kay Barber, her ex-husband, Jeff, James and Tanya, and a few other close people in her life. But the thing is, the people who were closest to Marie instantly had a bad feeling about it, especially her sister. And for them, it was really the way it was written. It just didn't sound like her at all.

And also just the act itself of leaving like that, not telling anyone, just sending a text message to people.

It's not something that they felt she would have done. And they especially didn't think she would do that without talking to her daughter, Paris. I mean, she loved her daughter so very much. So a few of them who got this text message ended up texting Marie back and didn't get a reply. However, Kay reached out to her specifically asking about her newest baby, Grace, who, you know, had very recently been born. And

she said that she was in good hands with Tanya and James. And that was a response that really confirmed her fears, because in all of the years that Marie had known the Flanders and communicated about them, she had always referred to them as James and Tanya, not the other way around. And while this might seem like a super simple detail to some and

You may not understand why this was the message that really got her and made her feel like something was off. She just knew her so well and had heard her say James and Tanya so many times that this just stuck out to her. You know, something felt really wrong. She immediately just had this gut-wrenching feeling that it wasn't actually Marie who was texting them. So she ends up reaching out directly to the Flanders and asks them if everything is okay.

And their response definitely did not reassure her because they told her that Marie had actually left two days earlier. Esta, her sister, as I said earlier, was equally as concerned by all of this and started calling other family members because she just had a sense that something was wrong.

And really everyone eventually seemed to agree. Even her ex-husband Jeff was super uneasy about the whole thing. They just knew that Marie wouldn't have up and left like that. She definitely would have talked to Paris. She wouldn't have just sent this eerie message without any details. And then, of course, not responding to anyone was a major red flag as well. It's just not the type of person she was. So...

Jeff decided to report her missing, and that was the right call. So on October 24th, Jeff reported Marie missing to the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office, and they opened a missing persons case right away. And he said this actually shocked him, considering Marie was an adult and had every right to just leave if she wanted to, but the police department really took it seriously. He was even really honest with them and told them that Marie would sometimes leave for a few days at a time, but he clarified that she never did that without talking to Paris first,

And she never went fully silent like this. And ultimately, detectives just agreed that the circumstances were strange, which I wish more departments would do this. I mean, how often do we actually see, at least in the cases that I cover, you know, them jump into action like this and take someone like this seriously, especially when they have this past history with mental illness and, you know, leaving like that. So they were all really surprised pleasantly.

that they were being taken seriously right from the jump. And what's cool is one of the detectives who ended up on the case was a new mother. And she had actually just given birth when Marie first went missing. So she kind of jumped onto the case later on. But she ended up being a huge part of this case eventually being solved. And she said that it really stood out to her since she just had a baby of her own that...

She didn't believe Marie would just up and leave like that when she was a brand new mother. So they got to work right away. And one of the first things they learned was about Marie's interesting relationship with the Flanders.

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Esta was the one who told detectives about her sister's divorce and how she lost her job and how she ended up living with James and Tanya in Florida. She then explained that she didn't know too much about the pregnancy because she just had learned from her sister not to pry. She sort of ultimately assumed Marie would have eventually told her more about it when she was ready, so she wasn't quite sure what the deal was with all of that. But obviously, that time never came before she disappeared. So she actually told her sister

actually didn't know at the time who the father was. And as you can imagine, one of the first things the detectives wanted to get to the bottom of was who the father was. So very early in their investigation, they decided to pay the Flanders a visit. So on October 27th, James gave his one and only statement to the authorities and talked about how Marie came into their lives, which

I already explained that, so I'll skip that part and start with his explanation for her pregnancy. According to James, discussions were had amongst the three of them that, for one reason or another, resulted in Marie agreeing to be the surrogate for his and Tanya's child. And like I already explained earlier, he also tells investigators that because money was tight and IVF was expensive, they decided to do things the old-fashioned way. So he explains that,

while Marie was living with his family in Arizona, he and Tanya paid Marie a visit. And this is where it all goes down. He explains that he and Marie had sex.

And Tanya was there and totally approved of it all. But they only had sex once and that one and only time Marie did end up getting pregnant. And again, this is just according to him. So once they find out she's pregnant, they move her back to Florida to live with them. And according to James, the reason they wanted her back in Florida with them was to keep a close eye on her because Tanya was worried that

that Marie would decide to terminate the pregnancy. She had heard that she was thinking about it and was nervous and obviously wanted to be as close to her as possible to talk her through any of those concerns. And the next few months after that were just as I told you before. She was living in Florida with them, they were helping take care of her, and the people at the church were hearing...

variety of accounts of the pregnancy arrangement. While she was there, they did a baby shower. There's pictures of them and it was really a baby shower for Tanya. At one point, she has a picture with a balloon under her shirt and she and Marie are standing together and everyone's all smiles, looking happy. But then James started to get into how Marie's behavior began to change after

after the baby was born. He specifically said that she noticed she was spiraling into a depressive state and that she was no longer taking her medication. In more or less words, and this part's a little foggy, he seemed to be alluding to the idea that she had harmed herself or at least had the potential to harm herself and he was very concerned about that. In fact, he told detectives that he was so worried

that he ended up staying home from work on October 17th to keep an eye on her. And keep in mind, October 17th is just two days before that text message from Marie was sent out to her closest friends and family. And he also said that this was the last day that he and his wife saw Marie. And according to what he tells detectives, Marie had woken up that day in a bit of a mood

And for whatever reason, he was concerned that she may leave and try to take the baby with her. He said that something about her just seemed off and that at some point later in the day, she got tired and went to her room to take a nap. And during that time, Tanya left with the baby to go shopping in Destin so that Marie could rest. James then told detectives that he waited around the house until Marie woke up. And when she did, he had a brief conversation with her and then decided to go on a run. But

But when he came back, Marie was gone. There was no sign of her or her white Mazda truck. And he even said that he and Tanya found a bag that Marie had packed, but that she didn't take it with her. And on the 19th, two days later, they get that text from her that, you know, a bunch of other people received as well. And they said they then waited a couple more days until the 21st

and then decided to go out driving and look for her themselves. And while they didn't necessarily find Marie, they did say that they found her truck, which was parked in long-term parking at the nearby airport. Now, the next thing he tells detectives is, to me, very bizarre, especially with this being probably the least of concerns, in my opinion, but they decided to drive her truck back home,

because they didn't want her to have to pay more for the car being parked there longer. And they even gave the detectives the receipt from the parking lot, which ended up having some critical information for them. Because it confirmed that James had taken the truck out of the parking lot on the 21st, just like he said he did, but it

But it also showed that the truck went into the parking lot on the 18th, which is strange considering they had last seen her on the 17th. So where was she, supposedly, in the time from her leaving the house to when she parks the car at the airport?

While they didn't figure this out for a while, but what they did know is that she didn't get on a flight because there was no record of her buying a ticket, which meant one of two things, that she either left the car in the parking lot herself as some sort of distraction, or that she was going to leave the car in the parking lot herself as some sort of distraction.

to like throw people off or someone else did for the same reason. So obviously the next step here is to check the security cameras in the parking lot to see if they could find out who was driving the car. But you guys, how many times do I have to say this? The cameras weren't working.

I am so tired of saying that I can't even tell you. I truly can't imagine how frustrating that would be as a detective, as it truly infuriates me as someone just researching these cases. But, yep, we hear it all the time. Cameras weren't working, so there was no way to see who was driving the car. They did end up taking a shot in the dark and tried to pull a fingerprint off the button that you press when you get the ticket for the parking lot, but...

That did not work, unfortunately. And so it was back to square one. Where is Marie? How did her car end up in the parking lot? And is she okay? So detectives began conducting more interviews and hoped that by talking to members of the church, maybe they could get an idea of what could have really happened here. And during these interviews, of course, detectives hear about all these different stories that people were hearing about the pregnancy and the relationship between Marie

Marie, Tanya, and James. They heard every different version, everything from the abusive boyfriend back in Arizona to the planned surrogacy situation. But obviously the only people who were really clued in to what was really going on was Tanya's inner circle of friends who had been told what actually happened, according to Tanya. But when these women in her inner circle were spoken to, they seemed to be holding a lot back.

which definitely was frustrating for investigators and of course there's not much they can do about it they can't force them to be upfront about what they know so they tried bringing the flanders in again for another conversation to try and clear up some of these things but this time only tanya ended up going and in her conversation with detectives she confirmed what james had said before

that they did things the old-fashioned way. She also added some details about James and Marie getting drunk on sake before having sex, and as I mentioned earlier, that she was in the room with them while they did it. But then she dropped a bombshell that detectives had not heard yet, and that no one else seemed to know, and that was that Marie was not just their surrogate. She was their...

wife or Tanya's sister wife. The three of them were in a throuple. But obviously this whole thing had to be a secret because this really did not align with what they were preaching at the church. This episode of True Crime with Kendall Ray is brought to you by Huggies Little Movers. Huggies know that babies come in all shapes and sizes and their tushies do too. Hug

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According to Tanya, Marie was completely cool with this arrangement, you know, having the Flanders raise the baby that she was going to leave eventually, and that she was just excited to be helping them. However, Tanya said that this all changed once Grace was born. Once that happened, Marie became withdrawn and seemed to want her daughter for herself. And that was confirmed by one woman from the church who told detectives that she heard Marie say she wanted Grace and James already.

all to herself. And I don't know about you guys, but that definitely sounds like a motive to me. And it did to investigators as well. Especially after one of the other members from the church that they talked to mentioned something really, really bizarre and scary. Apparently, Tanya had said that James could never kill Marie...

But she could. What the fuck? So as you can probably guess, the attention is totally turning onto the Flanders at this point. I mean, detectives knew something was really, really off here. And there definitely seemed to be a motive. But obviously, they needed more than that. I mean, truthfully, they needed a body. Because as most of you know, if you are true crime consumers, working a homicide investigation without a body is incredibly difficult. But...

They made do with the information that they did have. And two months into the investigation, they had some decent information, specifically regarding their cell phone records. You guys, when detectives pulled the data from Marie, James, and Tanya's phones, they were shocked. They figured out that wherever Marie's phone was in the days after she disappeared...

James' phone was pinging off of the same cell phone towers, meaning their phones were together after he said he was no longer in contact with Marie. I mean, riddle me that. And this was on more than one occasion, too. And just as a reminder, the last time James said he saw Marie was on the 17th. Well, on October 18th, the same day Marie's truck was driven to the airport parking lot,

James' phone pinged off an airport cell phone tower within minutes of when her car was parked there. So that's just one thing that doesn't match his story. And then there's this. A day later, on the 19th, both of their phones pinged off of the same cell tower by the Flanders house when Marie allegedly sent that group text. But

But according to James's story, she had left two days before this. So how was her cell phone back at the house? So clearly things just really aren't adding up here. And then it got even weirder because detectives ended up coming across a license plate inquiry request from a police officer who had come across Marie's truck on October 17th, the day that she disappeared.

disappeared. And in this report, the officer stated that a white Mazda truck was parked at a Chevron gas station and it appeared to have been abandoned. The officer ran the plates and saw that it was registered to Marie Carlson. But at that point, of course, she hadn't been reported missing. So at the time, the officer didn't have any reason to do anything about it.

But now that Marie was missing, this was a critical piece of information. And as you probably already guessed, James's phone placed him at that gas station on the 17th, an hour after he said Marie took her car and left. Literally one hour after he said he never saw Marie again, his phone places him across the street from her abandoned truck. Coincidence? No.

I don't think so. And once they learned this, detectives developed a new theory. And that was that maybe James had killed her and that he had parked her car, abandoned the car somewhere where he thought someone may steal it. And then they theorized that after it wasn't stolen, he decided to move it to the airport parking lot to make it seem like she had just

left on her own accord. And when I say they started to believe that James had possibly killed Marie, that was based on cell phone records. The data proved that Tanya was actually shopping in Destin with the baby and nowhere near either of them on the 17th when they believed that Marie could have been killed. But of course, for as incriminating as this information may seem, and for as much as the theory makes a lot of sense, right?

It's definitely not enough to prove murder. So they end up contacting the Flanders and wanted to question them about this new information, and they fled. On January 28th, 2012, detectives learned that a rental truck was parked outside of the Flanders' home and that they were planning to just pack up and move to Arizona the following morning. But after getting that call from detectives saying they wanted to talk to them, Janie

James, Tanya, and baby Grace left in the middle of the night. And I don't think I need to explain why that's suspicious, but it actually gets worse. According to a man named Jason Anderson, who was the youth pastor at their church, there was some important information that he thought detectives needed to know. Just a few days after the Flanders fled, Jason comes into the station and tells a pretty shocking story.

According to him, James had talked to another member of the church and asked him for help leaving the country. Big red flag. And he wouldn't say exactly why he needed to leave. All he said is that it was bad.

This man later told detectives that James seemed suicidal to him, so he ended up having him admitted on a psychiatric hold for 10 days. And all of this happened just a few days after detectives came knocking on their door asking about Marie, which is pretty interesting timing to suddenly start having a mental breakdown. Oh, and Jason also shared that right before James and Tanya fled,

A meeting was held at the church where some pretty disturbing information came to light. In this meeting, James admitted to being in a polygamist relationship with both women and said that Marie was...

more than just a surrogate to him. But on the day she disappeared, James said that the two of them got into a physical altercation, which left him with a bunch of scratches all over his body. He was adamant that she was definitely alive when he last saw her, but that things ended on bad terms. And after he told them all of this, he ended up resigning as pastor. And then a few days later, they fled. And luckily, right before they left,

Kay, Marie's friend and, you know, maternal figure in her life, reached out to the Flanders and asked if they would be willing to give her all of Marie's stuff that she had left behind. And they actually agreed to do this. She was given all of Marie's personal belongings, including her laptop, which she immediately just handed over to law enforcement and police.

Sadly, but not surprisingly, it had been completely wiped. Of course, they did send it in for forensic analysis anyway, but...

They weren't able to really get anything out of it. Everything was pretty much gibberish, nothing that made sense, nothing that explained really anything that was going on, which was a huge bummer. However, not all hope was lost because in April of 2012, a huge tip came in that changed everything. This was an anonymous tip and it came in through Crimestoppers and it really confirmed everything that pretty much everyone believed at this point.

And that was that James had killed Marie. This tip also revealed that he buried her body in the backyard, which gave detectives probable cause to conduct a thorough search. Cadaver dogs and ground-penetrating radar were brought in, but despite hours of searching, nothing was found. And this was totally shocking and upsetting to everyone who was seeking justice for Marie. And when you hear what I'm going to tell you later on, you'll understand why this lack of discovery was so important.

And ultimately, because she wasn't found, the case was stalled, and for quite some time. A whole year went by before James picked up the phone when detectives called, and the one time he did pick up, he talked to them for two hours and complained about being the victim in all of this. He talked about being concerned that he was going to be blamed for all of this and how it was taking a huge toll on him.

and just a bunch of other bullshit. At one point, the detective even just straight up asked him, did you kill Marie Carlson? And he said no. And sadly, without a body and without a confession, there wasn't much they could do at this point. But they certainly weren't giving up. So they waited and waited and waited. And about three years later, there was renewed hope in the case because they

forensic technology had improved quite a bit in that time. And this time it allowed detectives to re-examine Marie's laptop and boy, did it reveal a lot. On her computer, it turned out that there were hundreds of sexual and pornographic texts between her and James. And of course, it all stopped the day that she disappeared, the 17th. So this even more so confirmed what they already believed.

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Void where prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. And not only that, any activity on her credit card or bank account completely stopped as well on the 17th. But obviously these texts confirmed something else as well, and that's that

Marie and James had much more of a relationship than just having sex one time purely to get her pregnant. And sure, they already knew that they were a throuple, but the nature of James and Marie's relationship specifically had always been downplayed. And

Now it certainly could not be ignored. And remember earlier how I mentioned that James would upload some of his sermons to YouTube? Well, one of those sermons ended up resurfacing and it was dated about a month before Marie disappeared. And in the video, which is insanely creepy, James talks about how he wants to choke the life out of anyone who backstabs him or talks about him verbally.

behind his back. Now, whenever someone is backstabbing me, lying about me, gossiping about me, trying to tear me down or whatever, you know what I want to do? My feelings say, choke the life out of them.

Isn't that one of the most eerie things you guys have ever seen? I mean, especially that laugh. Oh, I just got chills when I first saw that. And how weird to say that during a sermon. I mean, I am not a religious person. I haven't spent a ton of time in churches. I've been there here and there over the years, but I have never heard anything like that said by a pastor. It's just like totally bizarre. But obviously this video still technically isn't proof of murder, but by the

By this point, the detectives felt like there was definitely enough circumstantial evidence in this case to ask a judge for an arrest warrant. And so May 5th, 2015, James Flanders was arrested and charged with second degree murder. But there's a bit of a catch. I mean, prosecutors could have absolutely just rolled the dice and taken this to trial, hoped for the best with the circumstantial evidence they had.

But they knew they would be much more solid if they had a body. And of course, James's attorneys knew this. They knew it was far from a slam dunk. In fact, they were very confident that if this did go to trial, that he would be acquitted. And that definitely wouldn't have been fair to not only Marie, but also to her loved ones. And they wanted the best possible chance they could get.

of getting justice for her. So in the end, her family ends up agreeing that offering James a plea deal in exchange for the location of Marie's body and the story of what happened to her would be their best option. And obviously it wasn't what they wanted because it meant that James would have a reduced sentence, but it also meant bringing Marie home and that closure was worth the sacrifice to them. And so in April of 2016, James accepted the plea.

And he pled guilty to manslaughter, which only had a maximum sentence of 15 years, which is obviously not enough. And then they found out...

That Marie Carlson was in his backyard the entire time. James told investigators that on the 17th of October, Marie basically erupted on him after he told her that she needed to be hospitalized for her depression. He said that she basically began attacking him. So to try to stop her, he gave her a bear hug. And when he gave her this big bear hug,

He claims that the two of them fell to the ground really hard, and at that point he realized Marie was no longer breathing.

Which, okay, I don't believe this. And also, I can't remember the case, I'm sure one of you would remember, where someone had claimed that there was a fatal bear hug. Like, I have heard this before. I have been racking my brain trying to remember what case that was. I'm sure one of you could remember. So let me know if you do in the comments below. But rather than call 911 like any sane person would do, especially if this was an innocent accident of a bear hug,

He wrapped her body in a blanket and buried her in his backyard. And he had dug that hole so deep that they weren't able to find her the first time that detectives went searching for her.

But just imagine if they had. Marie could have been found within six months of her disappearance, and James would have never been given a plea that reduced his sentence to just 15 years. It is really so unfortunate that they didn't find her. I mean, she was really that deep, and investigators have talked about how painful hearing this was. I mean, the guilt that they feel that they were right there searching the yard and they weren't able to detect her, they weren't able to find her.

Because, yeah, I mean, he would be in prison much longer than 15 years if they did, if they didn't have to do this plea deal situation. So it's

incredibly heartbreaking to think about. But like I said, though, being able to bring Marie home was very, very important to her family, and they were happy to just finally have that moment to lay her to rest. So they went out to the backyard with James's guidance and a recovery team, and at that point, they were able to retrieve her body. And oh my god, there's footage of this too. James actually fell to his knees and started crying over the spot where he buried her.

It was so performative and ridiculous and just offensive to people that were there and her family, of course. And as of today, James is still currently serving his 15-year sentence, but he doesn't have that much time left. I mean, he is close to being a free man, which just makes me sick. I've read that he could be released as early as 2029, which is right around the corner. I mean, we are close to 2025 here. We're talking...

a little over four years till he could be out. And when it comes to Tanya, because I'm sure you guys are wondering, did she have any involvement in this? Well, there was never enough evidence to prove that she had anything to do with Marie's murder. I know that investigators feel a certain type of way about Tanya, are definitely questioning that. Me personally, I question that. I mean, of course it's possible she had nothing to do with it and was completely in the dark.

I have a hard time believing that. I don't know how you guys feel. Obviously, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. There is not enough evidence to prove that. And, you know, you've got to have that. So, I don't know. It's tough. And to this day, Tanya is raising Marie's baby, which just feels so wrong to me. Even James' family is helping her raise the baby. And it just sucks. I mean, Marie should be here, involved, and...

helping to raise that baby. And it's just heartbreaking thinking of all she missed out on. And I keep just going back to the idea that I think she really

changed her mind. And this is fully just my opinion because no one knows. But I think she changed her mind and wanted to keep her baby. Didn't want to leave after three months the way that they had arranged, according to James and Tanya. And they didn't like that. Or at least James didn't like that. Like, you know, I don't know about Tanya. I can't speak for her. But yeah, it's just kind of where my thoughts go. And what's really heartbreaking is Marie's sister would actually

absolutely love to have guardianship of Grace and has petitioned to do so, but she remains with the Flanders. Marie's loved ones are allowed to have calls and occasional visitation with Grace, but that's the extent of it, which is something that just broke my heart. But before I wrap up today, I wanted to talk about this week's donation. I wanted to make a donation in Marie's name to...

something in Florida that could help other women in situations potentially similar to Marie. I came across Safe Space Florida, which is a nonprofit that empowers the safety and well-being of adult victims of domestic violence and their children.

They provide intervention, prevention, advocacy services, as well as shelter to victims in need. They are also much more than just a crisis hotline and emergency shelter. Safe Space Florida helps empower victims to become survivors through an array of programs and services, including legal assistance, financial literacy training, emergency services, and more.

emotional and mental health counseling, advocacy, community outreach, and prevention education. And I really loved learning about what this nonprofit does, and I will have it linked in the description if you guys are interested in making a donation as well. Unfortunately, that's going to be it for me on this case. Really horrible outcome in the end. I mean, I guess it could have been worse. There's really a chance that James could have gotten away with this if investigators didn't really stay on it. So it was cool to see them

you know, do such amazing work. You know, I really wish there was adequate time served for this. I mean, in my opinion, he should be in prison for the rest of his life. And I'd love to know what actually happened because I do not believe the bear hug story for a second. But I definitely want to hear what all of you have to say, which is always a lot. And I love to hear your thoughts and opinions.

And I want to hear who you think should have guardianship over Grace, which I think I know how most of you are going to feel on that. I also want to know if you guys think that Tanya is really an innocent player in all of this. I mean, personally, I keep going back to that church member who said that she allegedly said James couldn't kill her, but I could. That just... If that's true...

I don't know. But I mean, maybe he's telling the truth. I don't know. Tanya really could have not known anything. I just want to hear from you guys on that. But yeah, just a heartbreaking story. I mean, Marie really seemed like an amazing person, a real light. And after everything she had been through in her life and struggling so much with her mental health, it's just heartbreaking to see how it all ended.

and to not even really know how it all ended, you know? I mean, that's just got to be so frustrating to her family to not have those answers in the end. I just can't imagine. ♪

That is going to be it for me today, guys. Thank you for joining me for another episode. And make sure you follow the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. It really does help me out. If you want to watch the video version of this show, you can find it on my YouTube channel, which will be linked, or you can just search Kendall Ray. I will be back with another episode soon, but until then, stay safe out there. I'm Victoria Cash, and I want to invite you to a place called Lucky Land.

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