S1 E8: The Not Knowing
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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

- Action News reporter Vernon Odom live at 4th and South, the last place where the couple was seen alive and Vern, you spoke with-- - Jeanette Persiano was a friend of Danielle's. The weekend Danielle vanished, Jeanette was at home with the TV on. - They vanished after leaving a bar in the 400 block of South Street. - I was having a lazy Sunday, falling in and out of sleep on the couch with ABC playing. And Danielle's picture popped up

And I just couldn't believe my eyes. I dialed Danielle's cell phone and it went straight to voicemail. So I immediately dialed the house phone and Felice answered. Felice is Danielle's mother. I said, Felice, it's Jeanette. And she said, oh, Jeanette, she's coming home.

And I said, "What do you mean? Where was she?" Like I thought they had found her. And her reply to me was, "I don't know where she is, Jeanette, but I know she's coming home." And if you would have heard the desperation in her voice at the time, it's like her heart fell to the floor. Then there just were no words.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is There and Gone, South Street, Episode 8, The Not Knowing. All that I know is I see you in my dreams. Reach out in the dark for you've been close to me. I'll never give up, no matter how defined that you.

Just a note, the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating. This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Discretion is advised. A few weeks after Danielle Imbo and Richard Patron vanished off South Street in Philly, FBI agent Vito Rosselli first started working the case.

Originally tasked with pulling phone records, Vito said his role has greatly expanded since then. Eventually, I became the face of this investigation, whether I wanted to or not. As the face of the investigation, Vito became the point person for the victims' families. Over time, a deep bond was formed.

In this particular case, there were two good families on both sides. This was the one that really pulled at the heartstrings. And I obsessed on this case because there were families depending on me to come up with the answer. Weekends, late nights, early mornings, a number of times, I thought I had the golden ticket because everything was lining up. I remember being so excited and just for an entire month saying, this is it, man, we're getting there.

This case became Vito's purpose, and the families believed he would be the one to find answers. With him on the case, hope became the current of their everyday lives. Over the two decades, law enforcement would gain traction with tips and calls, and when he had enough, Vito and the families would meet. The hope that they would finally get justice would swell.

But Vito's leads would take him to dead ends. The disappointment was like a riptide for the families, pulling them under, back into the deep, dark expanse of the not knowing, a place of suffocating grief and deafening silence, drowning in their own imaginations. For almost two decades, Vito and the families lived this cycle, a cycle that continues to this day. I came so close so many times on the different directions only to, you know, bang my head on the wall.

Vito had gotten lots of clues over the years, but never enough to name a suspect or make an arrest. And that stays with you. It definitely haunts me to this day. It still bothers me. When we started working on this podcast, there were a few people I didn't think we'd be able to interview. One of them was Richard Patron's father, Richard Sr.,

For the sake of simplicity, we'll call him Big Rich. I didn't think we'd talk with Big Rich because over the past few years, he's struggled with multiple health issues. Here's his wife, Marge. He had many stroke, they're called TIAs, one after the other after the other. Marge said those many strokes have affected Big Rich's mobility and speech. But the real decline, Marge told me, happened after their son Richard vanished with Danielle Embo in 2005.

It's like a shell of a person. He couldn't work. He couldn't. He was drinking terrible. He wrecked like seven cars. The guy who used to yell out every answer on Jeopardy became a shadow of himself. I never get out of that chair. You never get out of that chair? No. In the spring of 2023, Ben and I were fortunate enough to meet with Big Rich at his home in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. That afternoon, he was feeling well enough to have visitors.

And even on what Marge described as a good day, I imagine Big Rich was tired. But he put on a brave face as he sat with us at his dining room table. I'm getting old. My back, my legs are going. A lot of it was due to me not being willing to embrace diabetes. That, along with his years working on his feet at the bakery, have taken a toll on his body.

And then there's the pain that started the night his son vanished off South Street. Richard's disappearance, that put a period in my life. Before, it was a great life. After that, not the same. Big Rich has had to shoulder on. He lost his namesake, his partner, his firstborn. You can feel the void it has left.

Even on the wedding day of Richard's daughter, Angela, Big Rich represented his son by walking his granddaughter down the aisle. His daughter has turned out to be an amazing woman. It would be a hell of a credit to Richard if he could see what he left behind. That afternoon, Big Rich shared so much about his son, like how they used to travel to the Meadowlands to see Bruce Springsteen. Springsteen was beautiful.

And in 2005, the music stopped. Instead, Big Rich turned to writing. He began journaling to help him deal with his new reality. He shared some of those writings with me. A lot of it is Big Rich unpacking the night of February 19th and the aftermath.

But at other points, he writes beautiful prose, quoting lyrics of Bruce Springsteen and other songwriters. One verse he quotes jumped off the page as he spoke about the dreams his son would never live to see. It says, I have these moments all steady and strong. I'm feeling so holy and humble. The next thing I know, I'm all worried and weak, and I feel myself starting to crumble. Big Rich even penned a letter about Richard to Bruce Springsteen.

I always expected I'd get some response. Nothing. Much like his letter, his questions about what happened to his son remained unanswered. He held out hope. But that hope evaporated into fear. And then pain. Unending pain. And that's when he turned to the bottle. I'd be out taking a delivery. I'd stop in a bar.

I drink two doubles. Next morning, I get up, pour myself a drink, and I go. Other than the occasional glass of wine, Big Rich said he gave up drinking years ago, even though the pain all that booze used to numb is still there. I thought back to our first visit to the Patron's for Sunday dinner and how no one wanted to sit in Richard or Big Rich's chair and how both seats have been cold for years now. Easter, Thanksgiving, holidays,

They don't make the same. I mean, I act like they do. Big Rich even opened up about Danielle, who he knew from the time she was 15. I loved her. She was the closest thing my son would ever get to the perfect match. The girl you'd want in your house, take care of the kids, and be willing to go out. And she liked the things you liked. Just a good girl.

Big Rich admitted the thought of his son marrying Danielle gave him pause. And I said to him, I hope you don't want to get married because she's already been married twice. Maybe you could just live with her a while. He said, look, Dad, I can't marry her yet. He said, I'm not happy with myself sometimes. And I say, yeah, you're right. But you're getting there. You're getting there.

He was getting there. After all, Richard was only 35. As the conversation continued, I asked Big Rich more about the investigation. Big Rich took a deep breath and readjusted himself in his chair. Then he stared off into the distance, almost as though he was searching for something. Vito told me. We thought it was a murder for hire. Vito, as in FBI agent Vito Rosselli. The evidence speaks for itself.

I think the car got chopped or crushed and you're never going to find it. Now, we don't know if they were followed or if the guy was waiting outside her apartment. Had to be at least two guys. We don't know if they jumped him, they came up behind him. I know Richard.

Maybe he got a temper. Maybe things got out of hand. Maybe they clocked Richard, tell her to get in the car, but they drive Richard's truck away. And then whatever happened. Big Rich's body may have slowed down, but the endless possibilities about what happened to his son continue to race through his mind. But as Vito said, it could have just been a thing that went wrong. He told me once.

This is the kind of case that stays with you and you say, I'll never give up. I say, that's okay, but it's going to be 20 years. How much more do I have to wait? Big Rich said at some point during the investigation, the authorities started to eye him. And that's when things got really uncomfortable.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcast, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System.

Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Richard Patron Sr., who for the sake of simplicity, we're calling Big Rich, talked about the roller coaster of emotions his family has been on since the day his son disappeared, especially every time the police asked to speak with him. That's when he'd get his hopes up. Did they find his son? Do they know what happened?

with someone in custody. I got a phone call one day. It was a young detective on the case. The detective wanted to talk with Big Rich in person and asked if he could stop by the station. I said, "Yeah, sure, I'll be there." Now I'm figuring, if a guy wants to talk to me,

Must have something intelligent. When he arrived, Big Rich said their conversation quickly got uncomfortable. He said, well, you said you left the bakery 1, 2 o'clock in the afternoon. I said, yeah. Well, who would close up? I said, my son. He said, well, we have information he had gambling debts. I said, where'd you get this? Well, you know, we can't say, but friends of Danielle's said, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. I said, my son said,

Doesn't count. There was that story. There was another story having to do with money. They had to hear this shit from Danielle. Nobody else. Or they're making it up. Big Rich blamed Danielle's family and friends for spreading what he called lies and rumors. He even wrote a strongly written letter to Felisa Tobre, Danielle's mother. You kept that? I kept it all this time, yes.

Marge handed Ben a copy of Big Rich's letter titled The Shame. I won't read the entire thing, but I will share a few lines. Our son is gone. He is not here to defend himself. He is also a victim here, but you seem to have forgotten that and continue to victimize the victim. I said, listen, please don't mention my son's involvement at all or else.

I'm not going to get in a pissing match with her. Along with shooing away rumors about Richard, Big Rich and Marge also had their struggle with law enforcement. At one point during the investigation, they made Big Rich take a polygraph. You know what that did to him one day when they brought him in?

to take a lie detector test to say, you know what happened to your son. They said, we get lied to every day. Maybe you owed somebody money and they took. No, nothing in his background would have ever led to that. Law enforcement has never charged or named Big Rich as a suspect. And he even told us it's all water under the bridge. I think Vito trusts me now after all these years. But the thing I'm afraid of

I don't feel as though I've given it my all. I don't feel as though I've given it my all. Marge said it's a familiar phrase that Big Rich has said since the very beginning. He just cried and cried and cried. We had every law enforcement, we had the FBI, we had the violent crime unit in and out of our house every day. What do you want to do? And so he just felt like he should have done more.

Big Rich wasn't the only voice we didn't expect to include. Midway through this podcast, we got a text message telling us that someone else wanted to speak with us. My name is Felice Ottobre and I'm Danielle Ottobre Embo's mother. When Ben and I embarked on this project, Danielle's brother John kindly asked us not to involve their mother Felice. Much like Big Rich, she's been dealing with health issues and he didn't want to add more stress to her life. In fact,

She said all along, John has tried to shield her from the investigation. Vito would always call John. Originally, he would call me and then I would be all upset on the phone. And then John had said to him, look, call me and I'll call her. And that's how it went. Felice was aware that her son, John, his wife, Jodi, and her grandchildren had been interviewed for this podcast. And to be perfectly candid with you, I have never listened to a podcast. I don't even know how to do that.

But recently, she said her grandson started asking a lot of questions about Danielle. And these questions were in response to things they heard on this podcast. There's things that are going on that I have no clue.

And I like it like that. I know it sounds terrible, but let me for a little while be in my little cocoon. It helps me have so much going on right now that I don't even want to get into, but it's nice to be in a cocoon and be protected for a little while. That day, Felice decided to let her guard down and emerge from her cocoon. She said she was ready to share her truth. The only thing I could say is I only know

What I know from my side of the table. Up until now, we've always heard how the meetup between Danielle and Richard was spontaneous and spur of the moment. But Felice said that's not entirely true. Those arrangements to meet were made a few days before Saturday. And nobody knew. No one knew. I knew.

Felice said that Danielle and Richard hadn't talked since sometime right after the new year, when Danielle decided she wanted to be alone. Might have been a week after or maybe 10 days after. She just didn't want to be with either of them, not her husband, because they were just separated and not Richard. A few weeks passed, and then right after Valentine's Day, Richard called Danielle. I was there alone.

when he called. It was either a Wednesday or a Thursday night. I mean, that was the first conversation they had had in quite a while. So that's why she was surprised when he was on the phone.

She said Richard asked Danielle out for that Saturday night. He wanted to take her to dinner and she was like, I'm already, I have plans. And she wouldn't break the plans with us to do that. The plan she is referring to is the girls' night at Chiqui and Pete's. He said, well, why can't we meet up afterwards? Felice said after Danielle kept hesitating, Richard asked her to put her mother on the phone. I, of course, get on the phone. And he said, I don't understand. You know, I love her. And that's when I said...

You just have to back off a little bit and give her some space. So you have Richard, who clearly tried to give Danielle some space, but then decided, you know what? I'm just going to shoot my shot. I give him credit that he did give her that space and then called. I guess he figured, you know, if I don't ask, if I don't try, I'll never know. And to his credit, it worked. She agreed to meet him after dinner to have a drink. And that was it.

I mean, these are things that we never put out there for the public to know. Felice said they informed law enforcement of the full story. That detail is something she also believes no one knew ahead of time, other than her, Danielle, and Richard. She didn't really want anybody to know that she was going to have this drink with him. None of her friends, her brother, and Jodi. No one knew I knew because I was there when the arrangement was made.

Normally when we went somewhere, she always drove. She would pick me up and drive and we would go. This night, I drove to her because I was going to come home by myself and Christine was going to take her to meet her brother.

Felice told us that she always liked Richard. If you're good to my daughter, how do you not like him? She said she was the one who encouraged Danielle to go out with Richard in the first place. I said to her, Danielle, you know him from when you're a teenager. Go. Go to dinner. Go to a movie. Get out. Just get out. And so she did. And their first date was Mother's Day.

This detail was something we have struggled with because no one could remember when Danielle and Richard first started dating. According to Felice, it was on Mother's Day 2004.

He comes to pick her up on Mother's Day with flowers for her and a plant for me. That's how they started to see each other. And it was good. And Felice thought Richard was good to her daughter. I remember literally one time she hadn't eaten all day when he closed the bakery. He stopped, grabbed a sandwich for her, pack of smokes, chocolate bar because she loved chocolate.

drove to her condo and brought her something to eat and then went home. So he was good to her. But then the good got complicated. And of course, she then tells her estranged husband that she was going out on dates with Richard. And in the meantime...

Jo couldn't understand the fact that she could even date somebody else. But like in his mind, it was all right for him to do something, but certainly not all right for her to do something. Did she have her issues with her husband during that separation? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Danielle's mother, Felisa Tobre, talked to me and Ben for the better part of three hours. We asked Felisa about Danielle's estranged husband, Joe Imbo, and how his affair changed the trajectory of their lives. Was he my favorite person? No. He hurt her. She was devastated by it. She cried and was heartbroken, disappointed, like, what was wrong with me? And I did tell her more than once that I was going to kill her.

There's not a marriage out there that doesn't have problems at some point. Yours happened to happen early on in the marriage. But I wanted her to know that

You can get through it and some people make it work and other people, they don't. As Jo tried to win Danielle back, Felice said Danielle's biggest struggle was whether she could trust him again. You know, it's hard to build trust back when things happen. And she was torn with that. At one point, she was like, the only man in my life is my son. She had said that many, many, many times.

Felice said Danielle turned to her as a shoulder to cry on. And although Felice would often refrain from telling Danielle what to do, she did offer a few pieces of advice. I did tell her, don't throw all of your troubles out there for just anyone. Because then you don't do what's truly in your heart. If you want to go back with that person, if you want to make it work, you don't want to be judged.

Her point was that the more people you tell about what's going on, the harder it will be for them to accept whatever you choose to do. But one person Felice definitely wanted Danielle to talk to was an attorney. I said to her, you're separated. I think the right thing to do is you need to see what your rights are and get an attorney. And so that was me. That wasn't even her. That was me.

Danielle's lawyer is now retired, and despite our attempts to get in touch with her, we've never heard back. According to Felice, it was the lawyer who directed Danielle to change her locks. It wasn't Danielle's idea. It was the attorney who had said to her, you know, you need to change your locks. The attorney was also the one who advised Danielle to take notes of every interaction she had with Joe.

She documented everything. If they had an argument, if he was confrontational, if he picked up little Joe late, if he took him home late. Because they did bicker back and forth, especially when he found out that she was going to start to date. That bickering, Fleas said, increased once Richard entered the picture. One of his things was, I don't want another man to raise my son.

And I remember saying to Joe, do you forget? At one point, you were going to raise another man's son. Felice explained that Joe originally left Danielle for a woman who had a son of her own. I think he then realized, like, I made the biggest mistake of my life. While Joe tried to win Danielle back, Felice remembers a phone call between Danielle and Joe that she and Richard overheard. Rich comes to pick her up, and she's on the phone.

And I could hear her on the phone with her husband. And he proceeds to say to her, I don't understand why you don't want me back. I'm a good looking guy. While what Felice is sharing gives us some insight into the state of the relationship at this time, I was curious how Danielle was handling all of this. And whether intentional or not, Felice gave me a little more insight into both Danielle and Richard's personalities.

And she proceeds to say to her husband, I would rather be with a hobbit than be with you. And Richard turns around and mouths to me, I must be the hobbit. This was her personality, like even when things were at its very worst. And while she tried to stay out of it, Felice said there was one time when she felt the need to intervene. It happened after Joe directly reached out to Richard.

Joe had called him at the bakery quite a few times. And it was like over and over and over, which he had done to Danielle on many occasions, like called and then she would hang up and he would call and, you know, that kind of thing. And I remember even calling him one time and saying, you've got to stop torturing her. Like, why do you keep, she doesn't want to talk to you right now. And I remember Richard calling Danielle and saying that Joe had called and called and called and called.

And I reached out to Pat, Joe's mother, saying, please just call him and tell him to stop. I should mention that we spoke to Joe's mother at length, but she did not want to come on the record. Felice didn't go into too much detail about Joe's repeated phone calls. I feel like the fact that she called Joe's mother to get her to intervene was very telling. But Felice made it clear no one in her family ever lived in fear of Joe.

No, we were never afraid of Joe. Danielle or Rob, nobody. Joe is the kind of guy where he wants you to know what his point of view is. If he thinks you're wrong and he thinks he's right, that's the way it is.

The Patrons have a tradition of Sunday dinner, and so too did the Ottobres. Felice said she hosted her family for Sunday dinner at her house. But that tradition ended the Sunday after Danielle vanished. That first Sunday, we just sat at the table. Nobody ate. It was just, yeah, it was tough. It was tough. But we still stayed together. We just didn't do it at the same table. You know, there's not a...

Felice said her son, John, took over hosting Sunday dinner. Meanwhile, Joe moved into Danielle's condo to take care of his son. And Felice said Joe also took over Danielle's bills, like her car and cell phone. Like, I don't know what we were thinking. Like, somehow, someway, this girl's going to walk through this door and everything's going to be good. But I don't know what we were thinking.

In fact, the band that she sang with had a little fundraiser for her and raised money. And this is where our crazy minds were. When she comes back, this money will get her back on her feet again. This is how you don't want to accept what you know to be.

True. Does that make sense to you? It made total sense. And that money they raised, it eventually became a college fund for Danielle's son, little Joe. I find it hard to believe that they never got a handle on anything. But there was never anything for them to get a handle on. There was never...

They weren't on a camera. There wasn't a lipstick. There wasn't a tissue. Even the truck disappeared. Felice said that as months passed, Joe decided it was time to cancel Danielle's cell phone. He also sold her car and condo and planned to move to North Carolina with his son. Joe had called and said, if you want to come over and, you know, come and get whatever you want. So we go over and

We walk into the bedroom and it was like she still lived there. All of her clothes were in the closet. All of her shoes were still on the closet floor, stacked, you know, the way you would store your shoes. All of her clothes, pajamas, everything, were still in the drawers. And he had two suitcases open. He was living out of his suitcases all that time. Never moved.

Never even made room for his clothes in her closet. To me, it was like unreal, unreal. And another reason why, is this a man who murdered his wife? I know that they heavily looked into Joe. I mean, it just didn't make any sense. I do know that Joe Wynn had a lie detector test. My son took him. Nothing ever came of it.

Joe just wanted us to know that he had nothing to do with it. And that was his main concern. He didn't care what anybody thought. He cared what I thought and what John thought. And I said, I absolutely don't believe you did this. No. No.

As you know, that put Danielle's family, the Ottobreys, at odds with Richard's family, the Patrons. I was very supportive of Maura and Mr. Patron. We both are missing our children. Now we believe that there's some foul play. And we wanted to be united in finding out what happened to our children. But they said immediately that it was Joe. And I was like, no, I don't think so.

And Marge was mad. They never considered any other possibility. And then it was like, why are you protecting him? Why would I protect him? If I believe that he himself murdered or had someone do this, why would I protect him? That made no sense to me. None at all. You know, I'm not going to agree with things that you're saying that I don't agree with. So I made a decision to

to take a step back from them because we're going through enough. I don't need to have you screaming at me. I know we asked this already, but up until the point that she went missing, did you ever feel like she was in danger or felt threatened by Joe? No.

And that's why Felice said she never thought of fighting for custody of little Joe. Little Joe has a father. Why would I want to take custody of him? That never, ever, ever came into play or anything. Never even occurred to me. Since the first day Danielle and Richard vanished, Joe Imbo has been caught in the middle. The Patrons firmly believe Joe had something to do with it. The Ottobreys believe they don't think he's capable of something like this.

That difference of opinion has caused a rift between both families that journalist Steve Volk first reported on 10 years ago. They could obviously find support through each other, and they just don't. They cut each other off in spite of a long, long friendship over this sense of personal slight. Steve said he's surprised that the two families have remained at odds because of the similarities they both share. I was like, wow, like,

You're looking into a mirror here. They could not have been more similar in terms of the emotional depth that they were operating in. They were operating in this lower circle of hell. And it struck me as a human being that maybe by...

asking some of these questions. I mean, yes, I generate material for the story, but maybe I make them think about the support they could have from one another. Steve said not many people can understand the pain the Ottobre and Patron families have endured, except the Ottobres and Patrons. And so when I originally wrote it, I thought, gee, maybe they'll read it and they'll see that they're looking into this mirror and they'll reconcile. But no. The starting and ending point was Joe Embo,

As we've said throughout this podcast, Joe has never been cleared by law enforcement. He's also never been charged. And as we've mentioned previously, even a grand jury was convened, but no action was taken against Joe. So if this guy had nothing to do with it,

And ended up in a situation where the circumstances, like, kind of surround him and point their finger at him, right? Because that's what the circumstances do. God, that would be its own circle of fucking hell. And for Joe, it was. So where is Joe today? Oh, he had, like, a heart attack. That's next time on There and Gone.

If you have any information about the disappearance of Danielle Limbaugh and Richard Patron, please call the Citizens Crime Commission tip line at 215-546-8477. Or contact the There and Gone team at thereandgonepod at gmail.com. That's thereandgonepod at gmail.com.

We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review There and Gone. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. There and Gone is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Ben Fetterman. It's hosted and written by me, Andrea Gunning, with additional reporting and writing by Ben Fetterman.

The series is also written and produced by Todd Gans. Our associate producer is Kristen Melchiorri. Research by Mason Klinder, Anna Hamilton, and Bella Ricci. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Aruga and Tanner Robbins. Theran Gunn's theme and original compositions were composed by Oliver Baines and Dari McCauley of Noiser. Music library provided by Mibe Music.

And a special thanks to both the Patron and Etobre families. Your strength and willingness to share your stories have been invaluable through the making of this podcast. Thank you for allowing us to honor the memories of your loved ones and to help keep their stories alive. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.