415: Ronda Paulson—Drinking from a Firehose
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It's the way I heard it. I don't know what episode it is, and it doesn't matter. I've been on an emotional roller coaster. Our guest today made me cry. Twice. Once. I thought it was twice, man. Yeah, maybe.

She really touched me, man. Her name is Rhonda Paulson, and I know her. I met Rhonda on Returning the Favor a couple of years ago. She lives in Tennessee. She and her husband, Corey, flew out here to do this podcast. And I invited them because, in part, I heard her on Bill Courtney's podcast not long ago. Right. And I just had not been in touch with Rhonda, and I had no idea the extent to which...

Isaiah 117 house has grown. And it also came up, you brought her name up, you invoked her name in the episode with Bishop W.C. Martin, where you said, you know, basically, oh, you guys are kindred spirits. She's doing the same thing that you're doing. And in fact, she sounded a lot like him.

So I don't know why I'm being pulled into this foster care world, honestly. Like there's a whole nother situation with this organization called Care Portal who keeps darkening my doorstep. I don't know. Maybe there's a higher power at work. Rhonda certainly thinks there is. Look, this episode is called Drinking from a Firehose. That's Rhonda's expression because what happened to her after her episode of Returning the Favor dropped is

back in March of 2020 was kind of unlike, well, I've seen the unintended consequences of that show happen before, but not to this level. Put the woman in the hospital four times. Yeah. The stress. You see, she left her cell phone number on her website. And after this thing aired, it struck such a chord with the 2 million people who watched it and then the many millions who saw it after that.

Well, Rhonda's life wound up going in a totally different direction. Her modest endeavor to make a difference in her little town of Elizabethton

turned into this national surge. And she's been on a different path ever since. And I really didn't know whether to apologize or congratulate her. Happily, I think we're at a point now where congratulations are in order because she's so grateful for what happened. And I'm so humbled because 6,000 kids have basically been pulled out of the foster care system as a result of the Isaiah 17 house and the weird level of notoriety it got.

from returning the favor. So yay us. I'm really super excited to share this story with you, but I'm also really humbled by the power of this microphone and the power of TV and the power of sharing one person's story. I know that's all uncharacteristically earnest, but you got to admit, Chuck,

You mumble into a mic, you make some sounds, and then 6,000 kids are transformed as a result. That's pretty good. I just want to say it's Isaiah 117 house. Yes. Okay. What did I call it? Isaiah 17.

- Oh, 117, it's a scripture. - The one's important. - You can look it up. Do you know the scripture, Smarty Pants? - Not by heart, but I mean, I got a Bible right over here, I can pull it up. - Yeah, that would only take another two minutes that we'd have to cut out. Why do that when Rhonda Paulson is standing by? Her husband's here too, his name's Corey, you might hear me reference him.

Corey got a vasectomy after they had a couple of kids because he really didn't want anymore. Yeah, he was done. Yeah, Rhonda wasn't. Yeah. And what happens after that, I don't want to spoil it, but it's great. And so is Rhonda. It's a transformational story and a cautionary tale because no matter how thirsty you are, my friends, drinking from a fire hose almost never ends as expected. Rhonda Paulson, right after this.

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Oh, I read it. Did you? Yes. You are allowed to exploit throughout the universe. That's amazing. Well, I watched you read it. And if you actually read it, then you're a speed reader along with everything else that you do. But you did glance at it long enough. She like mutters in the known universe and the unknown, I believe it says. Yeah. That actually was an artifact from the first release that discovery made me sign like back in 1993. Yeah.

And it was the right to use whatever happens, both visual and audio, on the Discovery Channel. Any channel affiliated with the Discovery Channel. Any network affiliated with the Discovery Channel. Any media company or conglomerate affiliated with any network affiliated with the Discovery Channel on any planet in the solar system or body in the universe, known and unknown.

You clearly read it. I read it. I immediately looked over my shoulder to see if there was maybe a camera rolling. Certain that somebody was screwing with me. But they weren't. And so, yeah, that's what we do now. Did we make you sign a release for returning the favor before we showed up? No, because I didn't know you were coming.

I really can't believe I didn't read that because I can't believe I even trust you after what happened to me with returning the paper. But some reason I do. I trust you, Mike. Why is that? Well, it's difficult to know given the fact that you didn't even know who the hell I was when I showed up. I didn't. Like part of the surprise baked into the show is like, oh gosh, they're going to be so surprised when they find out we're not doing a little documentary and then wait till Mike walks in. They'll be like, Mike Rowe, what are you doing here? You just looked at me as...

If like, oh, another man has walked in on the street. Well, everyone in the room was looking at you like you were supposed to be a big deal. So I thought, I thought you were supposed to be a big deal. I mean, I thought I was supposed to know you. That's what I kept thinking as you were walking to me. I thought, I'm supposed to know him. I'm supposed to know him. I think he's the guy from Tim the Toolman Taylor. That's...

What was going through my head. No, wait a minute. Did you think I was maybe Tim Allen or Richard? What's his name who played Tim Allen? I thought you were Tim Allen. Not the guy over the fence. Okay. Well, that's Wilson. Oh, no, I didn't think you were Wilson. But there's another guy, his buddy, Richard. No, no, no. You were not Richard. You were Tim Allen.

Well, that's not bad, to be mistaken. Yeah. I thought you were too. Well, you played his brother on Last Man Standing. You probably didn't know that either, did you? I did not. You could literally fill a book with what you don't know about Miran Mikulski. I really, I do not. And my mom was so disappointed because she thought Dolly Parton was coming.

Dolly Parton? She was in on it. I was not. I did not know. And she just knew someone famous was coming, and she just knew it was Dolly Parton. How does that work? How does the brain just make an assumptive leap? Because she lives like an hour and a half from us, and she gives us free books through the...

Dolly Parton Library. Everybody gets free books in Tennessee. I love the way, and Corey, you can confirm that you've been hearing this all your life, right? She says things that are both obscure and arcane in a way that makes you feel stupid for not knowing, right? Everyone knows about Dolly Parton in the library. Who would know that Dolly Parton lives right down the road? What was it? Elizabethton? Elizabethton.

I said it close to right. You did. You're in the is it the southwestern part? No. Northeastern part. Okay. So close. So close. It's such a weird state, Tennessee. Oh yeah. I mean I say that as a... Well we're sitting in California so yeah. I think it's bordered by what like nine states? Yes. Like everything touches Tennessee. Yes. And you touch so many things in Tennessee because you're very handsy and grabby.

What? I don't think I've ever been described like that, but I'll take it. Okay. All right. You've got to bring me up to speed. Okay. Let me tell you what I know. Okay. And this will sound crazy because we were returning favors at a rate when we met you. We were moving so fast and I was working on another project at the same time.

And it was coming at me from all sides. What I remember is we had a really great day together. I remember you making me laugh. I remember making you cry. I think Corey might have cried. Corey cries all the time. He's a crier. He cries all the time. Your kids, I don't know that they cried, really. They were more bemused. They don't cry.

But what I'm telling you is I don't have nearly as clear a recollection of that day as I'm sure you do because we were just on this hamster. I wasn't even sure when I left where I was leaving. I was pretty sure it was Kentucky or Tennessee. But I listened to Bill Courtney this morning on my walk and got kind of up to speed third hand. I really didn't know the extent to which things happened.

have apparently taken off for you guys? Blown up, exploded. Blown up real good? Real good. All right. What's the state of the union over there at Isaiah House? So the day is kind of a blur for me too because I didn't know what was happening. I truly believed a small documentary company was coming. And then this guy walks in that supposedly is famous and everybody is really excited about it.

I like supposedly in that sentence. That's my favorite word in that sentence. Allegedly. But my brother was really excited to see you. So he was. He watched every episode of Dirty Jobs. So my brother knew who you were. Great. But the whole day, I just couldn't understand what was happening. The day itself is kind of a blur for me as well. But what happened after is very crystal clear in my mind. So our episode was supposed to air on March 16th of 2020.

Sarah, your producer, lovely, lovely Sarah. She's the best. Calls me and says, oh, we changed it. We changed it. We're going to air your episode on September 9th. March 9th of 2020. So the 6th to the 9th. The 16th to the 9th. We're moving it up one week. We're moving your episode up.

And not much else happened in the year 2020. March 9th. So that was the week of the lockdowns. Exactly. Right before. Right. So California lockdown on Friday the 13th. So we dropped March 9th. Two million people watched it. March 13th, the world shuts down. Yeah. March 16th, when we were supposed to air, 10,000 people watched that episode because nobody was watching anything except the news. Nobody was watching anything. Right. Right.

So now everyone's locked down in their house. And you know what they're doing, Mike? They're watching Returning the Favor. And you know what they hear you say? You need a Rhonda. And you know what they decide to do? Call Rhonda. Because when you went to our website, my cell number was there. Oh, wow. Yes. Oh, God, I doxed you. Yeah. So everybody called Rhonda because Mike Rowe, the famous guy who knew. Everyone knows you're famous. Supposedly, almost. Decides to call Rhonda.

And 41 states and four countries reached out in the month of March wanting an Isaiah 117 house.

Okay. Good for us. That's great. I'm being a really bad host. Let's just back up for the uninitiated. Okay. First of all, give me the scripture. Isaiah 117 says, do good, seek justice, take care of the widow, take care of the orphan. Got it. I knew that. Just want to see if you'd actually committed to... You passed the test, Rhonda. Yes, thank you. Okay, so...

That's a scripture that calls people to look after the less fortunate. It really kind of goes right to the guts of what you call the single-minded biblical proposition that informs most of Christianity as we understand it today. And what I always like to say about that scripture, because I really don't believe you should just take a scripture. You should never just pick one out. Yeah. I mean...

The snout of a, that was great. Fine gold ring, snout of a pig. It sticks. I mean, if you want to pick that one out. But if you look at Isaiah 117, if you look at the whole context, God is speaking to his people. And what he says is, you think I want what you're currently doing? Like, you think I want these new moon festivals and these sacrifices? No. They're actually making me sick to my stomach.

What I want from my people is for you to do good and seek justice and take care of the widow and take care of the orphan. And my husband, Corey, and I found that verse as we were staring into the face of our very first foster placement, which was a nine month old little boy named Isaiah. And when you are looking in the face of a little boy that you just met, who's now completely dependent on you and your family for everything, that verse just hits different. His name was Isaiah.

And did you immediately think of the scripture or did this somehow triangulate later? Well...

We decided to read the Bible because if you have talked your husband into foster care and you haven't had a baby in your house in nine years and your husband actually had a procedure so that that would never happen again. And all of a sudden there's a nine month old, things get tense. And things get said like, you got us into this. And so then you say things like, we should read the Bible together. Yeah.

That'll fix it. We should read the book of Isaiah. Wouldn't that be fitting? That sounds great. We're going to watch Saving Private Ryan, but now we're going to go through Isaiah one verse at a time. You said talked into. As I recall, it was part manipulation of a truly inspired kind and outright deception, as I recall. I mean, potato, potato, you know, like...

Men see it one way, women see it another. I felt very strongly that God was calling us to the world of foster care. Why? Because I believe with all my heart that that is where you will find Jesus. Jesus was always for the least of these. He was with the marginalized. He was with the forgotten. He was with the most vulnerable. And if you want to find the most vulnerable in 2024, go to the foster care system because children entering the foster care are some of the most vulnerable people.

in society today. And when did that become self-evident to you? Is it when you met Isaiah or was it when you first saw this weird kind of purgatory that kids enter into? You know, it was all of it. It was taking classes and learning that that removal day is actually one of the hardest days they ever go through. You know, I think a lot of us, when we think of a child being removed from their family, we

We think that's a good thing. I mean, we think, oh my gosh, what they're living in and what they're seeing and what they're going through. Let's get them out of there. Well, yeah, but if that's all you've ever known and that's your mama and that's your home and that's your brother and your sister that you're going to be removed from and that's your pet and that's your school that you can't go to anymore and you don't get to take any of your belongings, that's the most traumatic day you're ever going to walk.

I mean, you're taken away from school and said, "Sorry, you can't go home today, and I don't know when you can say mama again." That's a hard day. - Literally plucked out of existence as you understand. - Yes. - Okay, and this is the average age we're talking here? - Oh, I mean, we've seen people in the Isaiah 117 house, we've seen children from two days old to turning 18 the next day. - Totally different type of trauma, obviously. How old was Isaiah? - He was nine months old. - Nine months.

And so there's a social worker there, I assume, and the family is there. And sometimes it's, here, take him. Enough. Where you been? Or I've had second thoughts. Don't go. Or how, I mean, I just, I want people to understand the grab bag of potential trauma that that day is.

So sometimes it's 2.30 in the morning, and there's been a physical altercation, and the police have been called out, and they're finding drugs, and mom and dad are screaming and yelling, and they're having to gather up children of all ages and put them in the back of a cop car until the department can get there. Yeah.

Sometimes it's been a steady reporting and reporting and reporting and the child is getting ready to get on the bus and they're greeted by their principal and a caseworker and said, "I'm sorry you cannot get on the bus today. You can't go home and I don't know when you're going to get to see mama." Sometimes it's coming in after school, we have a meeting with the social worker and they find something right then and there and they say we have to remove immediately.

Sometimes parents bring their children to the Department of Children's Services and said, "I have done all I can do and I don't know what to do anymore." Sometimes you have one parent and they die and there is no family and that child has just lost their only parent and they now come into state's custody. I mean, there's all kinds of reasons that children come into state's custody. And what were the circumstances surrounding Isaiah? A long history of poverty, drug addiction, domestic violence.

tried and tried and tried to get help and to make things better. And what happens to these kids in between the removal and the ultimate placement? So that's what we found. That's what kind of blew my mind is, you know, first you find out that they're walking this traumatic day and then you find out that the plan is for that child to go to a state office and just sit and wait.

Describe the office, because you took me to one. I want people to see it in their mind's eye. Think DMV. Think any state office you've had to visit. Think tile floor. Think fluorescent lighting. Gray. Gray. Beige. Beige. State-issued furniture. Probably outdated. Kind of a Soviet feel. Yeah. And cubicles everywhere. Conference rooms. Vending machines. Public restrooms.

And they're being asked to sit and wait till placement is found. You've got to also picture the state the child is in. So they're beyond sad. They're traumatized. They're scared because they don't know where they're going.

they may feel a lot of guilt, especially if they've said something they believe that has brought them into this situation or if they've gotten their parents in trouble. Which is, by the way, what they're kind of wired to do. We all are, right? Like the brain looks for cause and effect. And if your universe is as small as that house that you're about to be removed from,

the immediate thing is just to say, I caused whatever's happening. I'm the proximate cause of it. Because at that age, they're still the center of their own solar system. Yeah. What did I do wrong? I'm in trouble, you know? And so guilt, shame, they're feeling all these emotions. Most likely they have nothing with them. Most likely they're hungry. They're tired. Most of them are in desperate need of a bath or a shower.

And they're sitting in a state office, which is not equipped to meet any of those needs. And it's not the caseworker's fault. I mean, once again, picture the DMV. Is the DMV equipped to give a four-year-old a bath, a teenager a shower, fix a proper meal, get them clothing? Remove the lice. Yeah. Pick the lice. No. No.

But that's where they're sitting. And sometimes it's four hours. Sometimes it's eight hours. Sometimes it's 12 hours. Post 2020, three days a week. In some states, they're moving them to hotels. Some states, they're turning entire offices into the boys stay in this office. They're living there. The girls stay in this office. They're living there. I mean, it is across this country. There are children with absolutely nowhere to go.

Bishop Martin sat where you're sitting about six weeks ago and for much the same reason. What I do remember vividly about meeting you was really a day or two before I met you when I said to the producers and to Facebook, I said, you know, I just don't know about this story. A couple things make me nervous. She's a religious woman.

And that's not either a good or a bad thing for me. It's just that we can get into this later if you're interested. The church doesn't get a free pass. You know, the church is a huge part of solving this problem. But there's also something else. And I've been burned over the years, frankly, by just marching in lockstep with certain doctrinaires and feeling like, you know something, that's, yeah, whatever. And it felt...

How to say it. I guess, like a lot of people, I didn't appreciate the purgatory you just described. I knew the foster care system wasn't perfect, and I knew there was a terrible correlation between recidivism in crime, follow it back, so many foster kids, right? So I knew there was a bad path. I didn't know...

To what extent? And I didn't know you. Yeah, but I talked to Sarah, who you mentioned. She's like, Mike, look, trust me. I've talked to this woman. It's not platitudes and it's not bromides. She has her faith, but I don't think she gives a damn about much other than

those less fortunate than her. - Amen, Sarah. - Well, you know, look, I mean, you know, Sarah is just the most, I mean, you guys probably could sit down and have like an optimistic smile off or something. - I did love her. - To see who could slide up the banister faster, a la Mary Poppins. But it was her recommendation, and then I read a little bit about it myself, and I'm like, good God, this is a sprawling problem. And then the question was simply,

What can one woman do? That's an interesting question to me because macro problems often have micro solutions. That's why Returning the Favor became what it was. And I knew what had happened at that point to our friend Luke Mickelson. I saw what that bunk bed project turned into. And in the back of my mind, I was like, well, who knows? Who knows? Maybe. Anyway, I'm just saying all that because I didn't know.

I really didn't know until you showed me, and it was a privilege to show two million other people what they didn't know. That's why your phone blew up. So what exactly did we do for you again? We built something. What did we give you? I forget. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-

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Well, we had just purchased a home to make our home office because we had just recently hired three other people. In 2018, there was one employee and one house and 40 trained volunteers. By the time you got to us, there were four employees and we had just purchased this home, but we had nothing in it. We had like tables from Sam's and

somebody's grandmother's chairs, folding chairs from her garage and we had nothing. So you gave us money to finish that. Like we paved our driveway. We got a sign, we got computers, chairs. Um, anyone that visits, I say Jesus and micro get everything right here. Um, they seem to know who you are too. Like everyone I talked to knows who you are. So if you were worried, just me, but, um, and then you gave us lots of things to provide for the children, which was amazing.

Well, look, there are no small things, right? Like the business of getting the kids bathed, the business of literally delousing them by hand. The first time you realize that was the level of, what's the word, squalor? That's the level of depredation. I mean, it's... Well, you know, people get so mad at the state. Like, you know, you pick up a newspaper article, everybody's mad at the state. They're so mad at the state.

Picture this. The state is standing in their break room beside their coffee maker picking lice out of a child's head. That's what the state is doing. That's what the caseworkers are doing. And then if you want to move higher up, if you want to be mad at the state, this is what I always say. I'm not mad at the state.

This was never the state's calling. This was never the state's calling. If you want to talk church with me, I'll talk church. This was the church's calling and the church handed it to the state. And now the church wants to get mad at the state. I'm not mad at the state. Because if the church will stand up and do what they were called to do from Genesis to Revelation, we won't have to worry about the state.

So one of the first people I remember meeting that day was, I guess, was a caseworker. It was somebody from the state. And I remember you were...

protective of them. In fact, didn't you tell your people, you know, there's a documentary crew coming, don't bad mouth the state? Do you remember my pep talk? Did I tell you my pep talk? Because I thought it was a small documentary crew. Well, full disclosure, I did watch the episode. I did. Yes. And I said, okay, because I don't do details. So I said, guys, I don't know. There's some small documentary crew coming. There are two rules.

Number one, do not say one negative thing about the state. Not one. And number two, don't take your shirt off because I don't know what kind of company this is, but we're not making that kind of video. Those are our only rules. It's Tennessee. Cameras are coming. Then some guy comes in and pulled my shirt out and dropped the microphone. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about.

See? That's what I'm talking about. Which one was that, Taylor? Who was doing audio? Probably him. Probably Taylor. Just kidding. Taylor. It's not really his department, but you know. Yep, that's what happens. When you're in Tennessee. Yeah. No, your team was amazing. And multiple of those guys who don't speak a word that whole day, I guess because they're holding a microphone, came up afterwards crying.

like crying and hugging and just pouring their hearts out about what that episode meant to them. Well, that's nice to hear. You know, I mean, they were amazing. Well, it is because, you know, we had our own drama with returning the favor. I've never talked to you about this, but yeah,

All good things are circuitous in a way. Like the Isaiah House didn't just pop into existence fully formed, right? It's fits and starts. And I didn't want to do a feel-good show. I didn't want to do extreme home makeover.

Hudson Media did and Facebook did and they pitched us real hard. You just talk to Mary and, you know, she was they came to her first and it was no, that it was just no, no, thank you. And then it was like, no, seriously, we're just not going to do it. No. And they came down and they talked and we had this big conversation about how can you make a difference in this industry without just talking?

choking on your own saccharine sweetness and the earnestness of it all. It's not that I'm not a fan of those things, I just, like, how can we tell the story in a way that doesn't feel manipulative? These were all big conversations, and I wasn't convinced it could be done until we decided to basically have a behind-the-scenes camera, which was Taylor, who just never stopped shooting. So getting all those little moments cut into the finished product

That was the way we were able to come together and say, "Okay, I think there is a way to tell these stories." It's not going to be traditional and it's not going to make everybody super comfortable. But the funny thing is that I think you'll appreciate is those guys, you know, Sarah not so much, but Jacob and Lucien and Brent and certainly Michael Rourke, you know, who ran the company. Those guys were all making their living, you know, with real housewives of like San Bernardino or something.

They wanted to work on something that made them proud. And you really made them. You made Michael Rourke cry, and I didn't think he had tear ducts. This is a hardened, you know, Hollywood producer who pulled me aside. It actually wasn't after your episode, but it was that season. And he just said to me, Mike, you know, my family...

It was around Thanksgiving. He was like, my family told me this is the first thing I've ever done that made them proud. And so anyway, I mean, there was a smallness around what we were doing that was juxtaposed to a bigness. And I thought the same thing about you. I thought there's something so small about wanting to smooth over the transition

that these kids are more or less destined to experience. Improve that. That's modest, but of course it's adjacent to some rather big things too. And the fact that this thing got weirdly big just tickles me to no end. Yeah, I mean, as of today, we have 27 open homes, 57 total locations in 12 states, 160 employees.

over 7,000 volunteers. We've served over 6,000 children and we have 60 people waiting in a queue wanting to start an Isaiah 117 house. And a new video comes in every week and has so since March of 2020. That's the power of returning the favor. So thank you for finally saying yes. Thank you for finally saying yes to the feel good show. Yeah. Well, look,

I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm so sick of hearing... We did 100 episodes. It was canceled literally after the 100th episode. I mean, do you know how weird that is? I mean, just in... I'm not complaining at all. Zuckerberg told me to my face three years earlier. He said, I'm going to spend a billion dollars to find out if I even want to be in this space. It's not really what we do, you know. It was so weird. But people should understand it was...

We made a deal for five episodes because we were sure we'd never get to ten and didn't really even want to. Just dribs and drabs, a little bit here, a little bit there. To wind up with 100 episodes, a dedicated Facebook page with over a million people in a community who are basically programming the show, just coming to me every day with more and more ideas. That's crazy. We won an Emmy, for God's sakes.

To hear stories like yours, I mean, utterly transformational. I mean, lives have literally been saved as a result of us getting to a yes and you not knowing who I am, which is still heartbreaking, but nevertheless welcoming me into your house to tell your story. I mean, and so I'm literally on a call later today with Sarah. We're trying to figure out a way to get this rebooted without Facebook. You have to do it. Well,

Yeah, I guess maybe so. You have to. I mean, yes, the phone started ringing. People started calling. I would say for the next two years, every home that we opened was a direct link to Return the Favor. But now every one of those homes, they are now opening homes because the neighboring county is like, oh, we want that. So now Return the Favor is still opening homes. So, I mean, like we'll never know. We'll never know.

I still have to give Jesus and return the favor and micro. We can't just give... Now you're one of three instead of one of two. It was just you and Jesus a minute ago. I believe that's the Trinity. I think you might be wrong about that. I think you're going to get struck by lightning and I'm going to scoot back. But I mean, we'll never know. And I've told everybody that I meet, the fact that you would take your platform and use it for that good...

It wasn't just Isaiah 117 house. It was everyone that was on the show, you know, all the good that was just exponentially multiplied. Like you have to do it, whatever it is. I don't know the project.

And Sarah will make it good. I mean, she'll help you along. You know, she's special, for sure. And she's gone on to do some really interesting things. We talked the other day, and as much crap as I give Rourke and the old crew, like redemption really is the thing. And everybody's looking for it. And I don't mean it necessarily or exclusively in a biblical context. Whatever your line of work is,

There are days when you feel like you made a difference and there are days when you feel like you made little rocks out of big rocks. And you get too many of those days together and then that's called drudgery. And you get too many of the other days together and you just start to, well, you can't function because you're overwhelmed by the stakes of the thing.

So the question in that is, where are you with this? Because I worry. We joked earlier about, I gave you a drink of water from a fire hose. You know, not careful, take your head off. And we saw that happen with the show too. There were some instances where it was too much. Not the surprise, not the reveal, not the money, but the attention. Mm-hmm.

It's a heck of a thing when you point your cameras at a thing and it was what you said right out of the gate. I didn't know your phone number was on the website. I didn't know your personal cell phone was going to blow up. I have changed my phone number. I bet you have. And I begged the carrier not to give that number to anyone else. I was like, please, you just have to get rid of this number. Do not give this number to anybody else, please. No, I mean, you're right. I mean, I don't know if this is exactly what you're getting at, but I will tell you what happened to me. I was hospitalized four times in 2020.

And it was just sheer, I became so overwhelmed with how could I possibly say no to all these people that were calling? Because there's a child at the end of that. If I say no, there is a child at the end of that no. There is a child in that community in an office. Like, they're not wrong. They do need this. You know, and so I just get pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing.

Because we needed a house there. They were right. They needed a house. And what I've had to learn post-2020 and what I'm still learning, but I've gotten much better at, is God's not asking me to save the world. I mean, that's a God complex. No, no, no. I'm just supposed to do what I've been called to do one day at a time, one foot at a time, one step at a time. Well, He's asking you to live in it. I'm just called to do what I can do today.

I hope that I'm inspiring others to just do what they're called to do today, but that's all I can do. And so that's where I am now. Like let's all just do the good that we can do today. And then let's go to sleep and then let's get up and let's do the good we can do today. And then let's go to sleep. Cause I didn't sleep in 2020. Let's go to sleep and let's do it again. I nearly killed you. I told him, he said, can you think you can come out? I was like, I

I don't know. My pits are sweating. Hold on. I'm having a little PTSD. Last time I met that man, he about killed me and my life changed forever. I don't know if I want to see him again. But yeah, I mean, I think there's... Corey, I'm sorry too, man. But I do think, yeah, I just, no, I think for me, it's just, we just all have to do our part. I'm not supposed to do it all. We're all supposed to do our part. True. But

What you said before, it's witnessing. And again, not just in the biblical context. I know what it means to witness. But I also know... Are you afraid that I only think in the biblical context? I am capable of... All right. No, I'm not afraid of it. But I think sometimes people are.

I am afraid of it. I was afraid of this story. In fact, full disclosure, I looked askance at all faith-based stories initially. And it has nothing to do with my own lack of or preponderance of faith. You know, I think it's a fairly personal thing that I'm still happy to talk about. But on TV, it scares me because TV makes everything bigger.

It makes everything more exaggerated. And I don't think faith ought to be exaggerated. And when I see public displays of it outside of the church sometimes, I file it under earnestness. And Travis McGee says, be wary of all earnestness. True, he's a fictitious character, but I did base my entire business model on that. And so, right back to that thing, it's a very nuanced thing.

thing for me. It happened on Dirty Jobs too, where I wanted to pay an honest tribute to these people who do this work. But I didn't want to wrap them in a flag and I didn't want to turn them into heroes and I didn't want cello music playing in the background and I didn't want to needlessly manipulate the viewer into feeling a certain way. So that's all my baggage that I'm bringing to this thing. But with regard to witnessing,

The thing that changed my mind was you can't penalize people for being faithless or faithful. If you want to point your camera at it, then just point and let the chips fall. Take care of the edit as best you can and try to get your thumb off the scale. But what I learned was in the course of doing that show is that not only were the faith-based initiatives the most compelling initiatives,

We could have come at it exclusively for that. And I'm way more open to that now. Whatever the faith is, I've heard you, I think you said to me on that day, you said, my God is a big God. I don't remember how I responded, but I thought that's a fairly egalitarian way to put it. Like in one simple sentence, you were acknowledging the fact that other people might have a whole separate set of beliefs, but yours is personal and you know the parameters of it.

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I'm fully aware that my faith is mine. I don't believe I can talk about Isaiah 117 house without talking about my faith because it is all in there together for me. I felt compelled to go to foster care because of my faith. I felt compelled to do this work because of my faith. So it's almost impossible for me to talk about one without the other. But for me, anyone listening, I think we all should be compelled just to

To love our neighbor. You know, I mean, I think we all should be compelled to help the least of these. I think we all should be compelled to do good work. I mean, you know, it's not about my God or the God they protest or it's just... Compelled or convicted? Ooh, convicted. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

You're much better with vocabulary than me. Well, I mean... You've used two words today that I had no idea what you're saying, but I didn't want to stop you. Thanks for that. Do you remember what they were? There was one that started with an S. I'm not sure about that one. Sofa? No. Silly? No. Sanctimonious? No. Supercilious? I don't know. Sasquatch? Bigfoot. No.

I feel like we're playing password. No, but I mean, yes, convicted. And I do feel like, oh, no, I don't know if I should go there. All right, well, think about it. Okay. And let me clarify what I mean. Compelled, to me, is a statist word. The state can compel me to do a thing through various legislative fiats and so forth. All right? But a conviction is an internal thing that you feel compelled.

duty bound or simply called to do. It's calling. A conviction is a calling. Unless it's the other kind of state conviction where they put you away. Where you've been convicted. Not good. That's right. Yeah.

Good point. Yeah, it's an excellent point. Conviction that doesn't include jail time. That's the one I'm talking about. There you go. That kind of conviction. No, conviction for sure. Yes. Okay. I feel, because I'll go back to what I was saying. I feel like so many people are wanting the state to fix things. And if we just, the state will fix it. No, we should be convicted to do the right thing and to get out there and fix things. And that's why, and at the end of the episode, you're like, everybody needs a Ronda, which

If we could redo that, that one, that one line, you do not need a Rhonda. Where's the camera. You do not need a Rhonda. Listen to me. No one needs a Rhonda except for Corey Paulson. No one needs her, but you know, we need to all feel convicted. Um, yeah, especially, yeah, especially right now. Part of your job as the leader of this thing, at least for a time anyway, was to share that conviction. You had to be persuasive.

You had to persuade your husband, who's sitting right there checking his Facebook status, no doubt, or maybe calling an early Uber. I'm very, very persuasive. How'd you get him to come around? And I know you're probably sick of telling this story, but it's important to...

I think there are probably a lot of people listening who are, at least I hope, who will be convicted or possibly compelled to try and do something good, kind, decent, or better as a result of all this. But they have to understand, too, that those actions can have consequences, both unintended and intended, and that compulsion can impact those closest to them and probably will.

Like that's the price that nobody ever talks about. I tried to talk about it a lot on Returning the Favor because people think about charities and they think about foundations like they're hobbies, but they're not. They're businesses with even more, in many cases, layers and challenges. And some of those can get pretty personal, including vasectomies.

That was pre-I'd say a 117. Was it? It was. But no, Corey has sacrificed a lot. Yes, my family has sacrificed a lot. That is true. I did convince, coerce, manipulate Corey into going to classes to learn about foster care. That is true. He thought he was going on a date. We ended up in foster care classes.

Yeah. Boy, that sounds great. That date did not end like most dates should. I will say that. I will say that. But we went to that first week. He didn't say he wouldn't go back. So he did go to week two. He did go to week three.

When we left week three... Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is a date, but you're not dating. You're married at this point. Right, right, right. I asked him to go out on a date. Yes. He got his mom to watch the kids. Date night. Date night. We went out to eat. And then I said, hey, why don't we drive out to this church? And he was like, on our date. I was like, yeah. That would be great. It's going to be hot. Hot date at the church. And...

We pulled in, there was tons of cars in the parking lot. And he was like, lots of people dating at the Crossroads Christian Church. And I was like, yeah. This place goes off. Everybody's here. And so we go in, we sit down, this lady stands up. Welcome to your eight week study of foster care. I mean...

He was so not happy. I tell everybody there was this notepad and we're supposed to take notes about the children and he was writing hateful little notes and shoving them over. I was like, we're going to get kicked out. He's like, oh, I hope so. I mean, he was so mad at me. Um,

But in between, like, so we drove home that night and we did not speak. We did not speak all night long. We rolled opposite directions, didn't touch, didn't speak. And then the next morning we got up and we didn't discuss it. We just acted normal. And then week two, we just met in the driveway and we drove out without speaking and we drove home without speaking. And then week three, we met in the driveway and we drove out without speaking. And when we were coming home week three, he said, I don't want to do this. And I said, hey,

Fair enough. I mean, you've been a good sport. I tricked you into it. We made it three weeks. Fair enough. And he said, oh, don't fair enough. Me, Rhonda. And I said, what?

And he said, you and the Lord have wrecked me. I am a wrecked man. He was like, you've known me for 20 years and I like simple, safe and predictable. And I don't know if you've noticed, but not one thing we have learned about the foster care system sounds simple, safe or predictable. And I do not want to do this. But now I know, like now I know there are kids in our community who

With nowhere to go. Now you know. See, that's the witnessing I was talking about. Now I know. You can't just see it. Yeah. Which is why that episode was as much about him as it was you. Sorry we don't have another mic, Corey. I'd hook you up. All right, he's good. But seriously, wow, it's like that scene in It's a Wonderful Life.

It's my favorite Christmas movie. It's a great movie. It's my favorite. But guess what? It's not a Christmas movie. Oh, don't do that to me. Every Christmas Eve. I know. It takes place at Christmas. It's like Die Hard. It's like Die Hard. Not a Christmas movie. Well, wait. I'm just kidding. It's kind of a horror movie, really. I mean, what is more horrifying than to wake up one day and not have anyone you love know you?

Okay, we need to stop this. Okay, that is my favorite movie. Well, in the same way that you wrecked your husband's life, let me wreck your favorite movie, okay? Corey, have I wrecked your life? I'm the luckiest man in the world. There you go. There he is. He's the luckiest man in the world. I'm the luckiest man in the world. On cue, on cue. I have been blessed beyond my means. Life is good. No, there's a scene where...

Donna Reed is on the phone with Sam Wainwright, who's got all the money. Jimmy Stewart's there, and he loves her, but he doesn't want to love her. And he's jealous, but he doesn't want to be jealous. And he's got plans to travel the world. He's got all these plans in his mind, and he's so sure of it. But...

He saw something. He can't deny how he's feeling when he sees this woman talking on the phone with this guy and her mother's on the extension upstairs listening, remembering. Jimmy's there like, I'm not going to do it. I don't. I hate it. He's just absolutely twisted up with this incredible cognitive dissonance and realizing that, yeah, man.

It really doesn't matter what I want anymore. Oh, that's how he's lived 27 years. God love him. That's what it's like being married to me. Everybody needs a Rhonda. I said do not say that. I just think that that moment in that movie is so relatable to so many people because it's when you crumble. It's when you know you can't quite say, okay, done.

Since you put it that way, let's do it. It's prior to that, but it's also after you kind of know the jig is up. And so what happened in week four? Well, now we're united. So now we're in it. And I mean, it's just so eye opening. I tell people all the time, because we have people come up and say, I don't know, I've always thought maybe, but my husband's not on board. Or I've always thought maybe, but we're, I'm like, just go take the classes.

You're not signing up for anything. Just go take the classes. They're free. Just go take them because it is so eye-opening just to learn. And I do believe that for a lot of people that if they knew...

You just got to know what's going on in your community. I think a lot of people would have a hard time turning a blind eye. And so that's what it was like for us to sit there week four, week five weeks, just to learn what the children are going through. And that literally they're in class with my children. They're on the soccer team. It's not these kids. It's not those kids over there. No, no. They're going to school. Yeah. They're on the soccer team. They're...

And it was just so heartbreaking. So heartbreaking. So what happens after the course? So after the course, I would like to say that we were so moved and so convicted that we just immediately said yes. But it's not true. I mean, we said no for almost a year. No to? Calls. No to calls. Why? I mean, it's a hard yes. Yeah? It's a hard yes.

I mean, when they call you at 2:00 a.m. and say, "We have a sibling group of three, and they have zero possessions, and they all have lice. Can we bring them to your home right now?" It's a hard yes. I mean, we didn't even own a car big enough to haul. To go from a family of four to a family of seven overnight, that's a hard yes. I tell people all the time, the hardest thing God asked me to do through this whole process was to get a minivan.

And so we literally, we, I did it. I did it. And it's true. Once you do it, you can't go back. They're like, it's amazing. But anyway, we lived in this hundred year old farmhouse that we had redone. It only had three bedrooms. So we sold it and bought a home with more bedrooms. We sold everything.

And bought a minivan. And we spent a year just kind of getting ourselves ready until we finally got the call for a nine-month-old little boy. And we said yes. And that was Isaiah? That was Isaiah. Why him? Well, unlike the picture that has been painted of me, Corey had one request. He was like...

One child like we're gonna say yes to one shot. Mm-hmm Not a sibling group of five not like one we'll start with one child and I will say for almost a year It was all sibling groups. And so he was the first call we received for one child Then what happened?

Then we lived it. Now it's not just what we learned in a class. Like we are picking up from the back door of the child welfare office. Now we're being handed a roach infested diaper bag. And that's the only thing the kid owns. Now we're being handed a child that was just bathed in a drug testing sink.

Now I am looking into the face of a child and so heartbroken because I'm like this nine month old, the only thing he owns in the world is a roach infested diaper bag. And he was just bathed in a drug testing sink. And he was just handed to me who he does not know. That's the plan. Like that is the plan. And I'm like, yeah, it actually is. I didn't even have a car seat. And so they were like, oh, hold on. We've got one. And I'm like, it's the dirtiest, filthiest, you know,

They said, bring it back tomorrow. We need it back. So I put this car seat in. We're driving home, and I realize we have nothing for a nine-month-old. We have a nine-year-old son and a 12-year-old daughter at the time. We have not a thing for a baby. So I call a friend of mine, and I'm like, we just said yes to a baby. I don't know. And so she starts calling, and all our friends, our small group, our community starts showing up. They're bringing high chairs. They're putting up a crib in our guest room. They're bringing baby monitors. Somebody came by with $500, said buy him what he needs. I mean, like...

For the next three days, our community just showed up. And that was eye-opening too. Now, was this church or was this community or both? Both. Both. Soccer moms, people from church. We had a small group that wasn't affiliated with our church. It was just a group that got together and we were living life together. So it was everybody. But I remember thinking, if Isaiah's mom had had this community, I wouldn't have Isaiah. And that was just a gut punch. Yeah.

I wouldn't have him if she'd had this kind of support system. Right. But also...

how do foster parents say yes if they don't have this? Because Corey and I were doing fine financially. I mean, we're not, but we're doing fine. We couldn't afford to go buy everything a baby needed at a moment's notice. So like, how did foster parents say yes? And like, you get a clothing stipend, $150 that I received eight weeks later when he was no longer naked. I mean, how do you say yes? And so that was another eye-opening moment. Like,

How do foster parents say yes? Well, no wonder nobody's saying yes, but we need them to say yes. And so it was all these pieces of the puzzle coming together like removal day. That's the plan. This is how we pick them up. This is all the support foster parents are getting, but we need them to say yes. And we've got caseworkers picking lice out and they're spending the night in offices with children. I mean, it was just like, and I had this friend, Julie, and we would talk, she had gone through the classes. We met in classes and she had said yes to a baby and we would talk every week.

And every time we got off the phone, we would say, our husbands are not going to let us bring them all home, but we got to do something because this cannot be the plan. That's what we would say every week. This cannot be the plan. And that was from 2015 to 2017. Like, this can't honestly be the plan. Getting back to me for a second. Oh, please. Yes. It had been a while. It had been a while. Yes. I'll get my drink of water. You go. Okay.

I think about returning the favor like a pyramid in a way. And I used to say a thing on the show highlighting people slightly better than you and me. And I meant it because I think at the top of the pyramid we have people who are

nearly utterly selfless. They're just people who, well, with respect, would have taken the three, would have taken the four. It wouldn't have mattered. Some of the people in like Sound of Hope, which I'm sure you'd be like, give me the worst and give me all of them. All right. Those people are almost another species, right? They're there at the top. And then under them, you've got these extraordinary people who are in it,

but have their own life and they're not quite ready to blow the whole thing up, but they'll blow up part of it. And then the further down you get, the more just regular folks you'll want to know. I'm down there toward the bottom, maybe middle, slightly. And I know, though, I know that when I meet people who are so clearly...

doing a thing that I'm not willing to do, I can support them. And that makes me feel good. Because I don't want to do what they're doing. I don't want to foster a kid. I got too much going on. I don't know if you've looked around, but kind of a big deal. You didn't know me. Yes. You don't know me. Supposedly. But supposedly you are famous. So I can't compromise that level of B-list quasi-celebrity.

If you want to put that on a shirt, you can use it. Actually, I signed something. You can use it throughout the universe. But I'm not so fallen and not so craven that I don't want to help. And I want to help as I can in my own crappy industry. And I can also write checks and do things on a personal level. I know that most people are like that. And I know that most people, when they witness the thing, when they see the thing, they will be convicted of

to do something. The question is what? What did Bishop Martin inspire those people to do? You know, through the power of his personality, whatever the answer is, that's, I think we started talking about persuasion at the beginning of this thing, because that's a lot of what TV is. And that's a lot of what you do day in and day out. And that's what any effective person I've ever met ultimately has to grapple with.

how can I best persuade people to join me in my effort to make the Isaiah House a household name, right? Or whatever it is. So I'm just throwing that in there because if I'm right in my theory, then the vast majority of people listening are rooting for you, but they won't do what you've done. And then a big chunk of those people will actually help you do more of what you're doing and so forth and so on. And more than anything else, Rhonda,

That's what returning the favor proved to me. It proved the pyramid was real. There are only so many Rhonda Paulsons and Luke Mickelsons, and I can go down the list. But there are a lot of people who are rooting for you, who want to help. And even though they sent you in the hospital four times in 2020, with their love, calling your number, which for some reason you put on the World Wide Web. I don't know. I don't.

I did not know what I was doing. It's very clear. Right. But that's another quality of the level of bloody do-gooderism I'm talking about. And it goes to preparedness. How prepared do you need to be to take action? If the answer is somewhat, then you're probably sane. If the answer is not at all, then I don't know what to say.

And if the answer is completely and utterly and totally prepared, then you're at the bottom of the pyramid, right? - You'll be paralyzed forever. - Correct. - Yeah. - Correct. So what do you think? I mean, do we all get moments of clarity in life where we just have to decide? Do we all get that breakdown after the third meeting like Corey had where he's like, "Ah, damn it, I don't want this, but I see it." I mean-- - Well, two things as you were talking.

One thing, I see the pyramid, but one thing that I've had the privilege to experience is there's more people up here than you realize because the people that are coming to want to start an Isaiah 117 house, they're all up here and there's a ton of them and they go and they do it.

And they are coming and they are putting everything on hold because they want this for the children of their community. And they are working their tails off. And I mean, I'm meeting them day after day after day. And they are loving and kind and talented and enthusiastic. And they're just doing it. I'm not saying they're few in number. I'm saying in relative terms. Oh, yeah.

But they're amazing. They are outnumbered. Maybe. But it's amazing to see. Like, they just keep coming. And it just, it does my heart so good. I mean, it's just been so good for my soul to see. We get to see, unfortunately, the absolute worst of humanity in the work that we do. But I also get to see the best. Like, they just keep showing up. Like, it's unbelievable. But to what you just said, I can only speak to what I've experienced. I do think in our core...

We all know what we are being convicted to do. And when we say yes, there is a freedom and a happiness and a joy and a blessing that we experience that we will not experience when we say no. Doesn't make us better or less than or there's just a joy and a happiness that we won't tap into.

when we continue to say no to that conviction? Well, there is certainly a freedom that comes paradoxically with the realization that you don't have a choice and that you're not really in charge when you let go. I get that. I get that. But that's, it's the old trust exercise. You remember from an acting class way back, you know, you're standing on the edge of the stage and

And your buddies are behind you and they're going to catch you. All you have to do is fall straight back. You got to put your faith in something else. Now, it doesn't always work out, but there's freedom in the choice. Did you feel like you were falling for a while there? It's been a wild ride. It's been a wild ride. But when Chuck called and we got on the screen and he said, do you think you can come out to California? I said...

I ended up in the hospital four times. He blew my life up. I nearly died. I'm having hives right now. I'm sweating, but I will forever be indebted to you. And I don't say that lightly. Forever. Forever.

Because there are over 6,000 children that have walked through a little red door because you said yes to returning the favor. And so I gladly got on a plane to come out here, even though I'm sweating right now, too, because I will forever be indebted. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. You make me cry on my own stupid podcast. I'm firing Chuck. So thank you. Hey, we're a...

We're part of a mosaic, I think. Look at me with the metaphors. Pyramids and mosaics. Wow. Brick walls and grout and tile. I don't, uh, I'll take the credit for saying yes when I said it. I can't take much credit beyond that. I really, truly looked for people toward the top of that pyramid. I asked Sarah to look for them. They knew the mandate. You're right. They're everywhere. They're the neighbors you wish you had.

And you're among them, for sure. And we would have deemed that whole adventure a success had your number not been right there on the World Wide Web. Look, you didn't sign up for it, but the fact that it's happened is wonderful. And I guess I'd be derelict if I didn't say, I mean, clearly you're not calling the shots. Clearly you're not really in control of any of this. But what do you want to see happen?

with the time you have left on this blue ball whirling around the sun? What do you want Isaiah House to become? And what do you honestly, reasonably think can happen if the people who are watching this decide to blow you up again? I want to see the church mobilized. I want to see them stop pointing fingers at the state. I want us to step into our calling. I want us to stop being afraid.

You know, so many people are afraid. I couldn't bring that child into my house. It's a child in need. I want legislation change. It's not in favor of the child. And it leaves a child in limbo for years and years and years. And then it makes a really hardened teen that then stays in limbo. And then it just keeps the cycle going. I want to see...

Isaiah 1 17 houses continue to grow and be a safe place for children to be reminded that they are not alone. They are not in trouble, that they are loved, and that there is hope. I think that's what I want. What can people do down there on the lower parts of the pyramid who are just saying, all right, all right, you got me. You got me. You got me. I was just minding my own business, flicking around the YouTubes, and I saw this woman, and you got me. What do you want?

If you have thought ever about being a foster parent, you are needed. So find out in your local community where you could take a class and just take the classes. If you want to support Isaiah 117 House, visit our website. It's all right there, Isaiah117house.com. If you want to do anything like Isaiah 117 House, you don't need a Rhonda. I didn't have a Rhonda. You don't need a Rhonda.

Don't be paralyzed by the big picture. Just take it one step at a time. I do believe we are all called to be part of this solution in different ways, but I do believe we are all called to be part of the solution. So I think that's it. That's beautiful. We're going to give this thing a shot. Actually, I'm a serious about, I'm going to talk to Sarah. Um, Mary's all in, we've got another production company who's, uh, who's game. No idea what'll come of it, but, um,

Every now and then, you've got to say yes, right? You do. You do. Thanks for coming out. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe?

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