387: Make Me a Firefighter with Candice McDonald and Jonathan Dayton
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Hello, friends, and welcome to episode number 387 of The Way I Heard It. This one is called Make Me a Firefighter, and it features not one, but two terrific conversations. I thought they were terrific, Chuck, and judging by the look on your face, you concur? Yes. It's Candace McDonald and Jonathan Dayton, both volunteer firefighters in this country. Mike, are you aware, or were you aware before this conversation, that the way I heard it was called Make Me a Firefighter?

That only 30% of firefighters in the country are paid? That the rest are volunteer? I knew that the majority were volunteer. And I know that number has changed over the years and has for a long time. Like everybody else in the country, I mean, who's not a fan of firefighters? I mean, it's like, it's a tough time to be a cop. Things have been politicized. You know, the military, say what you want, farmers are having a rough time. But

I mean, it's impossible not to look at a firefighter and not think, man, thank God you're out there standing by to pull my bacon out of the metaphorical and literal fire. Thank God they're there. Yeah, absolutely. And both of these people have experience doing just that. There is a lack of interest in the fire department. Here's the other thing that I learned that I think is pretty cool is that

You don't have to just volunteer to be a firefighter. They need all kinds of support, people to cook for them, people to do all sorts of things in a support fashion. And the other thing that's crazy is that all firefighters have to go through the same training, regardless of whether you are volunteering your time or if you are a professional firefighter. You can't be a volunteer firefighter unless you go through the same training. Unlike...

many aspects of today's military, firefighting is a true meritocracy. They don't grade on a curve. You do the same number of push-ups, the sit-ups, you got all people up and down ladders. You're going to hear all about this stuff because this episode happened. It doesn't matter why it happened, but...

I'm in a world now where I'm approached constantly by people who are struggling with recruiting issues. And I'm involved with a network of people who are really deeply concerned about this, and they should be. Our country needs tens of thousands of volunteer firefighters. We are desperate for them.

And the reason they've dropped off, part of it's economic, but there's something else going on too. It's the same thing that's making our submarine industrial base look for 100,000 skilled tradesmen right now. It's in the air. It's in the water. We're just struggling to get the right work ethic and the right level of enthusiasm paired up with the right kind of training and the right level of skill and

All these organizations, it seems, are really challenged to make a persuasive case for why you should think about a career in the fire service. And these two, man, they're just awesome. Candace and Jonathan, I talked to each one of them for about a half hour. And I think if you listen, you're going to hear a really great case to consider this career. And hopefully you'll help us spread the word because it's only a matter of...

what they say, a life and death, Chuck. Absolutely. It's going to make you want to get involved. Some say the earth will end in fire. Others say in ice. From what I've tasted of desire, I hold with those who favor fire. But if I had to perish twice, I think I've seen enough of hate to know that for destruction, ice is also great and will suffice. Is that Lizzo?

That just came to me. Made that one up on the fly. No, you did not. Who wrote that? That's Robert Frost, brother. The great Robert Frost. Fire and ice. There's no real poetry in this conversation, which is why I just laid some on you right there. But a lot of great stories and a lot of fun facts, and you're going to hear all that right after this. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-dum.

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Slash Mike! Hi Candace. Hi.

So nice of you to join us. How are you? Where are you? Great. So I am in rural Ohio. What part of rural Ohio? So much of Ohio is rural. Yes, full of cornfields and everything else. So I actually live in the county where the train derailment happened in Columbiana County. So before that happened, nobody knew where I lived. But now I can just say, hey, the East Palestine train derailment and everybody knows where I live.

Oh my God. Isn't it crazy? Like how in the blink of an eye, a thing can happen and suddenly you're on the map. Maybe in a way you didn't want to be, but you just wake up one day and it's a whole new deal.

Yeah, I was on a cruise ship in Aruba and I got back to cell phone signal and my phone was blowing up from our dispatch texting saying train derailment, this, this and this. I'm like, wait, is this real? Is this happening? So I missed the whole thing. So.

How bizarre. I mean, as a first responder, there are probably a couple examples of words grouped up in a super specific way that make your whole body come to life and the goose flesh and the pucker factor and everything, everything. And two of those words must be train derailment. I mean, oh my God, how often have you heard that in your professional career?

So that was a first for us. I mean, we've had some other small train drill, but nothing that catastrophic. So that was definitely a new situation, something new to me. We've had plane crashes and other things like that in my jurisdiction that I've responded to. But yeah, that was a first for us. I just can't imagine. What did it feel like to actually not be there in your zip code when that happened?

So knowing once I started to read what chemicals were involved, I was kind of happy I wasn't there. Yeah, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. But, you know, I think there is that thing where you start to wonder, how's everybody doing? The people that responded, are they OK? The community members. And you start to think about those things. I flew back in right before they did the release. So I got back in that right in that in-between time.

And before we jump into all the personal things about you, I'm just curious, how is the town doing? How are people feeling now that we're a year past it? How's it settling? Yeah, so the town of East Palestine is about 45 minutes from me. We're kind of on opposite ends of the county. But I've spent a lot of time talking to the fire chief there, Keith Dravik, in the

They are really trying to rebuild. They have made some wonderful progress with some of the things that they've implemented within their volunteer fire department, from new equipment to we're getting a new training center thanks to Norfolk Southern. You know, there's always some good that comes out of tragedy. You know, you try to focus on that good and that's some of the good things. So it's definitely a lesson learned and, you know, something for other volunteer fire departments to think about because, you

When you look at the design of trains, they don't go through big cities. They usually go through rural areas. So most likely when something like this happens, it's going to happen in a small town. This is something worth riffing on a little bit longer too, because I got involved years ago with a...

sort of a public safety campaign that was sponsored by a couple of big railways. And it just had to do with something that sounds so crazy to most city dwellers because they don't understand the number of railroad crossings in the country. There are so many.

And there's so many accidents that happen in like Bugs Bunny coyote ways. You're just like, you gotta be kidding me. What do you mean you didn't see the train coming? But when you start searching for calamities,

like Google Calamity Railroad, and it's just an endless sinkhole of people making really bad decisions. I mean, talk a little bit about that and in the context that people who don't live in a town with a railroad crossing might be able to relate to.

Yeah, so it seems like a lot of people in rural areas, especially after a night of drinking, there's some of those that feel that they can challenge the train and they don't always do that successful. So, you know, in my career, I've responded to accidents that have involved car versus train that did not end well for the car, obviously. You know, sometimes people, they spend a night drinking and they get this liquid courage and they think they're faster than the train and it doesn't always work out so well. Yeah.

I got involved in this because I was filmed once in this sort of iconic shot that you see in movies all the time. A guy is just walking off into the sunset down the middle of a train track. It's so stupid, but it's so ubiquitous. Once you start looking for it in TV shows and movies, especially a decade or two ago,

You saw it everywhere. And the number of people who wind up getting hit by a train. I mean, they got their headphones in and they're just walking down the train track and it comes up behind them. And it's like mind-bogglingly crazy, but it's probably happening somewhere in the country right now.

Yeah, and we hear a lot about a lot of people, like you said, they like the way that train track looks, so they want to do photography on the train. So they end up on an active railroad to take photos, which doesn't always end well for them. But yeah, I think there's that education piece that we really need to educate the community, like stay off the tracks. It's not a place to play. All right. Well, look, let that be the first lesson that we've officially learned from you. But let's talk a little bit about first responders in general. I wanted to have you on here.

Not you specifically, but you're delightful and I'm so glad you agreed to do it because from the early days of Dirty Jobs, firefighters have always been a part of my life and everyone I've talked to, male and female, big cities, small towns, they all say the same thing. They're worried. The math doesn't look right. The number of people who are volunteering is going down. The number of crises are rising and it's not just train drama, it's everything.

So just talk a little bit about your industry and why recruiting has become such a challenge for an industry that has so much goodwill. I mean, like the fireman is never the bad guy in a movie. Everybody loves you guys. And yet we're struggling right now to keep the ranks filled.

Yeah, absolutely. So 65% of the U.S. is actually protected by volunteer firefighters. A lot of people don't know that. And there's about a $46.9 billion cost savings that volunteers give to their communities across the country. So that is huge. So it's really important that we look at

What is the issue with why are we not getting new recruits through the door? And a lot of it, like you said, we have increased our call volumes dramatically. I actually started our township's EMS program. When I first joined our department, we were like at 30 calls. And now it's like it's for this little town. It's gone, you know, over 100 calls in no time. I mean, it was it's just a lot of it has to do with the EMS calls.

And that's on one department. In some volunteer departments, they're running thousands of calls a year. So there's a big time. What's happening, though? Why? What's happening in the population to drive that exponentially higher number of people to their phones to say, help me?

Well, a lot of people, there's many different reasons. I think that people rely on ambulance services and calling 911 is because one, a lot of hospitals in rural areas, they've closed. If you look at kind of the statistics, there's a lot of hospitals, trauma centers,

that they're closing a lot of people, especially in rural communities. They don't have primary care doctors, so they don't go. My husband was born into a generational farming family, and that was his dad. Didn't go to the doctors, didn't go to the doctors. He went to the doctors in December around New Year's Eve, found out he had cancer, and he was dead four weeks later. I mean...

It's just they don't go to the doctors because they don't have doctors in their community. And so I think then when they do call, they're in crisis. The other thing that we see are the way people drive. We have so many car crashes. It's just unreal the amount of crashes that are happening because people are horrible drivers or they're distracted or dumb or disgruntled. Disgruntled, distracted, dumb. We're just lacking the skill. But again...

I don't know that people have ever been great drivers, but are we moving into some form of idiocracy here? Or is it distraction? Could distraction be at the top of the list that's making people less competent behind the wheel?

think that's a big thing. There's more distractions than ever. I mean, you know, gosh, most of us, when we all started driving, you know, whatever we got on the FM and AM, that was our choices. You know, we had one radio station that worked. And now there's all these apps and all these fancy things that are kind of a distraction. Plus, now we have the cell phones. So,

And if you look at statistics, the most dangerous place for a first responder is the roadway. That's where we're getting struck and killed the most and injured. It isn't the burning buildings. It isn't, you know, that type of thing. It is actually the roadway.

It's never the thing that gets all of the glamour or the attention, right? I mean, in good things and in bad things. It's the slip and fall. You can make your living in Cirque du Soleil, being the most acrobatic, gifted athlete there is, and you're going to slip on the soap in the shower. You're going to go down the stairs. I get that that's always happened. I just think it's so interesting. You're talking about a magnitude of hundreds of percentage points, right?

that people are turning to you guys. And we're looking at this incredible, I don't even know what to call it. Is it a skills gap? Is it a recruiting problem? Is it a PR problem? What do people need to know that they don't in order to make them think more favorably about the career that you've chosen?

So I think a lot of people don't realize that they can volunteer in their community. So there's always this perception that, you know, because a lot of it, what we see in the Hollywood images, that you have to be a certain way to join the Volunteer Fire Service. And honestly, there's a role for everybody in the Volunteer Fire Service.

Whether you want to run into burning buildings, you know, be on an ambulance, or if you want to provide administrative support, people don't realize that there's that opportunity for them to serve their community. I look at my grandma. My grandma wanted to be a firefighter, but she was told because she was a female, she couldn't be a firefighter. So at the age of 72, she got her first set of turnout gear and joined a department and provided support. What?

Yes, she did. Your 72-year-old grandmother? Yes. Yeah, so obviously she was not running into burning buildings, but she was providing what we call rehab support where she was coming to our fires, providing water, providing food, and taking care of us. And again, that is a vital role. You had to see the smile on her face when she would put on her bunker gear and put on her helmet and show up to those fires. I mean, she truly felt like she was giving back.

So again, not everybody knows that they had that opportunity to volunteer. And also times have changed where the work-life volunteer balance, things are crazy right now because most of us are working more than one job to make ends meet. You know, we have dual income families and our kids are busier than ever. My three kids are adult kids and they were very busy with extracurricular activities. But I look at some of these other young firefighters with younger kids that are still in school and they're even busier than my kids, way busier than...

we ever were as kids. So there's that time conflict where people are being pulled between how much time do I have to give up to volunteer? How much time do I have for my family? How much time do I have for my job?

So that's always an issue, too. And I want to kind of circle back to what I mentioned about people not knowing that they have an opportunity to volunteer. If people are looking and want to volunteer, one of the tools that the National Volunteer Fire Council has is our Make Me a Firefighter campaign. It's makemeafirefighter.org, where anybody in the country can go online and fill out a little form, and we'll connect them with an opportunity to volunteer within their community, whether it

be as a first responder running into a burning building or providing care on a medical scene or providing that administrative support or being somebody like my grandma who provided rehab. We've got a job for you and we will connect you to that place in your community.

That's awesome. As you talk, it makes me realize that it's easy to forget that volunteerism has a selfish component to it, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I say that because when people's lives get as busy as you've just described, they look around and they start cutting some things out.

And the time you have to volunteer most often goes first because it doesn't feel like a priority to your absolute set of needs, but it is. I mean, not to sound like a lecturer or anything, but that was the big lesson from a show I did called Returning the Favor. It's good for you. Obviously, it's good for your community. Obviously, it's good for your industry.

But it's good for your grandma at 72 years old to put on turnout gear and know that she's helping move the needle. And I have to think that that sense of service, that sense of engagement, that sense of wanting to belong, that must have had something to do with why you got involved in all this.

Yeah, absolutely. So for me, I was not the typical generational firefighter that many people are. I was a single mom with three kids and I attended a class at our community college about emergency preparedness. And from there, they said, come and find out what it's like to be a firefighter. So showed up one Saturday morning. They put me through the search trailer. I came out with the biggest smile ever. They took a picture. I posted it on MySpace. That's how long ago it was. And...

The local fire chief reached out and said, "Hey, I think you live in our area. Would you be interested in volunteering?" I'm like, "Oh, I can do that?"

And so next thing I know, I was attending a weekend at our Ohio State Fire Academy just for women to find out what it was like to be a firefighter, to build your confidence. And I fell in love with it. I'm like, oh, I can do this. And so, yeah, and to be able to give back, it's a great feeling. And I think that's why many of us do this job. But what you mentioned earlier is there is this kind of, like you mentioned, that selfish component.

I call it you either have mom guilt, dad guilt, or firefighter guilt. So you have to make a decision sometimes between going to Little Johnny's soccer game or the fire department training or a call. And so whichever you choose or don't choose, there's going to be some guilt in there. So that's something that I think we all struggle with. But again, there's a great sense of pride when you do make a difference in someone's life. Because you're not doing it for the money.

No, I'm still waiting for that paycheck.

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I have a question. Candice, can you tell us a little bit more about your training? I know as a woman, do you have to go through the same rigors that the men do? Is it slightly different? How rigorous is it? Great question. So in Ohio, I actually had to take the exact same training as our career firefighters.

exact same training. There was no shortcuts. There was no special exceptions made because of my gender or my height. I'm only five foot one, barely. Sorry, five foot one? Yes. And so the day we showed up for our ladder class, I had to carry a counterpart down two stories, fully in gear down the ladder. And I'm like, oh, there was only a couple of females in our class. I'm like, all right, they're going to pair me with her. Nope. They gave me one of the biggest guys in our class.

And the look on his face, he thought I was going to kill us both. But we made it down. I did not drop him. And I'm like, oh, this is over. And then the instructor says, now you have to do it again.

And he said, you need to know that you can do this and not doubt yourself. And so I really did appreciate that. So yeah, it's the exact same training as our career counterparts that we have to do. And it is very physical. So it's definitely important because the cardiac incident are high within the fire service. We always have to think about that. We're definitely at risk for heart attacks and some of the other issues. So we have to keep up our cardio. We have to stay in shape and stay healthy. For

For people who are just listening and not watching this, first of all, the MySpace reference killed me. Then you just casually mentioned you have three adult children. You look like you're 30 years old, maybe. I have to ask, you're 5'1". How old are you? I am almost 50. So...

I mean, what are they feeding people over there in Ohio? I mean, what is happening? I mean, no, I'm sorry, but you're five. I've just got some physics questions and maybe some sexist questions too. So forgive me, but I'm just going to say it. You're a five foot one female who's approaching 50 years of age. And you're still in a world where you're prepared to carry a 200 pound plus man around.

down a ladder or up a ladder. In full gear. In full turnout gear. So yeah, they're both in full gear. Yeah. Well, I'm not carrying them up the ladder. Let me point that out. We're not going up. We're going down. That physics. So, okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Gravity. But I mean, okay. I mean, it's just so funny. And I just have to ask because who do you think was the most nervous? You or the 220 pound guy over your shoulder praying to every God he's ever heard of?

I would say my counterpart, Jared, he was definitely nervous. I could see that his eyes were like gigantic because, you know, there's no ropes holding us on. There's no nothing. He's like trusting me as we're going down the ladder. So definitely him. But it is about physics. And I had somebody, a male firefighter, tell me that early on because it was before I went to fire school and I had joined the department. And I was at that time, I was just an EMT.

And we went on a call and it was just the two of us. There was this big guy. I'm like, oh, how are we going to get this? Like, we better call for help. And he looked at me. He goes, it's all about physics, lifting and leverage. You know, it goes back to that. He says, we can do this. Let's use a sheet. Let's do this. So I've had really great mentors that have taught me how to use my body and physics to be able to do the job. And it goes back to how I might do the job might not be the same way somebody else does the job. And that's okay.

Talk about the band of brothers mentality or the band of sisters or the band of brothers and sisters. Band of siblings. The band of siblings. There you go. I'm trying to get at the thing...

that you won't read on the job application, right? This camaraderie that evolves between certain groups of workers in certain vocations. First responders certainly have it. But how important an appeal, a lure is that? Or how important should it be to people who are looking at your industry and really trying to figure out if it's for them?

So the bond that we have with our brothers and sisters and not just within our own departments, but as we network and through other departments and across the country, it is so strong. I know that I can go anywhere in the country or my kids can go anywhere in the country. And if something happens, I can call that fire chief and say, hey, I'm a firefighter from so-and-so. My kid is in trouble. Can you help them?

And that is something that you just don't see everywhere in every industry. But the fire service does offer that. My husband is a emergency department nurse. He used to be a firefighter medic turned nurse, but he was the first nurse in his hospital to get COVID, ended up on a ventilator back when COVID was at its height and the world was shut down. And the entire fire service from across the country was there to support me, sending messages, sending care packages of food and gift cards,

Even though I was alone because that time everybody was isolated, I didn't feel alone because everybody showed up. Yeah, you can't really put that on a T-shirt. You know, you just have to experience it and learn it and then live it.

We've got a sponsor on this podcast, a guy called Arthur Lee has a product called LifeVac, right? It's this thing that maybe you've seen it. It's a device designed to save people from choking to death. It's real simple, suction-oriented. I've had him on here once or twice, and every couple weeks he sends Chuck an update. As a result of our conversation on this podcast, a certain number of people went and bought this product.

And every couple of weeks, someone's life is saved as a result. He's got like over 2,000 photos on his hallway in Massapequa where he manufactures these things. And he walks down this hallway to work every day looking at people, mostly kids, who would be dead but for this mad scientist gene in his brain that compelled him to make this thing. My question is, what does it feel like to save a life

And how addictive is that feeling? So I don't know if I ever look at it as what does it feel like to save a life, but more the connections. Because I think just being able to show up for people in their worst time and provide that comfort. One story comes to mind. There was this individual. We have a livestock sale barn down the road from my house. And there was a rogue truck that ran him over. A rogue truck?

Yes, it came out of gear. It was an old rickety truck and it ran this guy over. So, yeah. So even in Ohio, you don't even have to have a driver to have a bad driving incident. So, yeah.

But yeah, so unfortunately, this man was run over. He was there by himself, didn't know anybody. And so when I showed up, you know, I was treating him, holding his hand. And he said he had no family. He was new to the area. And so I held his hand through Life Flight. We connected. And I actually went to visit him in the hospital, which I usually that's not something I typically do for EMS calls.

We stayed in contact and he did pass away, but he didn't pass away alone because I was there. And he was so grateful for that. So to me, having that opportunity to be there for somebody in their worst moment and provide that comfort, you know, that means a lot to be able to do that. How important is it to maintain a sense of humor?

in this kind of work? And does that sense of humor in some way rhyme with the camaraderie and the band of brothers and sisters you were talking about? - You have to maintain a sense of humor because some of the stuff that we see and some of the constant exposure to traumas and stuff, it takes a toll on your mental health.

And that was something that I wish somebody would have told me early on, like, hey, you can talk about these hard calls. You can get support for these hard calls. That's okay. But, you know, the things that we see are sometimes so off the wall from, you know, there was this car accident I pulled up on the scene and the person had no pants on. And it's like, what's going on here? To, you know, I don't know if you know this, but if a pig catches on fire, you should not put water on it because then it's like a grease fire. Yeah.

A pig. So, yes. A pig. Yes. Yes. How does a pig catch on fire? Exactly. If the barn catches on fire and the pig is inside the barn. Of course. Yeah. To a neighborly dispute where somebody put an IED in another neighbor's mailbox. And so you just got to find humor in some of the things and just kind of chuckle because you never know what you're going to see from day to day.

See, you're glossing over things that I would normally dedicate one, two, maybe three hours to really getting into, like the notion of a pig catching on fire and then water being thrown on presumably a squealing porcine, right? And suddenly you have a giant grease fire and the whole town burns down because the wild pig is fully involved, you know, bolting down Main Street. That's a movie of the week. That's a book.

That's a story. And what was the other? Why were the guy's pants off in the car? You know, they said there was a domestic dispute, an argument, and they got mad in the car and they just left without pants. Sometimes, you know. I've forgotten mine once or twice. Yes, yes. It happens. It's so important to know when to leave. It's so important.

And sometimes even the patients have a sense of humor. The one time I pulled up and there was a body in the middle of the road and, you know, this gentleman on a motorcycle had just been hit and he was unresponsive. So give him a little sternal rub, getting him back. And he came back at, you know, and I'm trying to talk to him and I'm checking his pupils and his eyes missing. And I'm looking for the blood, looking for the stuff. And he goes, what's wrong? Is my eye missing? I'm like, uh, yeah. And I'm like, uh, uh, and I'm like, couldn't process it. He says, he goes,

It's been missing for years. And so, you know, so, but I was like, something's not right here. He's handling this pretty well. Yeah, yeah. So, and it's things like that that make up for, you know, some of those rougher calls. Well, land the plane for me then. What is it? Okay. If you were in charge of recruiting for the entire country, and again, how many volunteer firefighters are we down right now?

So we're at 65% right now, and we used to be at 75%. Okay. So we're about down 10%, we're 10% down. How many humans does that translate into? Like how many people really need to show up starting now? Yeah.

So we've got about 676,000 volunteer firefighters in the country. We definitely could use, I'd be happy if we got another 50,000. Okay. All right. Well, let's get them. Yeah. Let's get them. Yeah. Let's do it. So yes, makemeafirefighter.org. Make me a firefighter. Is that the URL? It's makemeafirefighter.org. Yes. That's the site that anybody in the country can go to and apply to volunteer in their local fire department. We will get them connected.

And keep in mind, it's not just to be a firefighter. It's to be in those supportive positions like your grandmother was. Yes, or to do EMS. And I always tell people, too, as a kind of a recruitment tactic, if you're looking at a job in healthcare...

Join the fire service. This is a great way to see if this is something that you enjoy because you may spend all that time in college and all that debt and all that money and decide, nope, don't want to be a nurse, don't want to do this, and you just wasted all that time and money. But if you join the volunteer fire service, do volunteer EMS, you're going to get that hands-on experience with the patients. You'll be able to know if you like it. And again, that's how my husband got his start. He was a volunteer firefighter paramedic, and now he's running a level one trauma center in Cleveland. It's terrific.

It's terrific. Yeah. All right. Anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Anything you're just dying to say? Because I'm telling you, literally hundreds, dozens of people listen to this podcast, Candice. So this is a chance to get those 50,000 locked up right now.

All right. So I think my message to those people that are listening is that you are never too old or too young to join the fire service. Again, if this is something that you've always wanted to do and you're thinking, oh, but I'm too old on this. Hey, if you're retired and you're looking for a way to fill your time, because, you know, we see that a lot. People retire and they don't have a purpose. We can give you that purpose.

Come join your volunteer fire department. We will keep you busy. We will train you. Volunteer fire departments will provide you with free training that also translates to a career path. Come join the fire service, get certified as a firefighter, get certified as an EMT, a paramedic. And guess what? You didn't have to pay for that. And now you have a skill where you can go and get a job. Boom. Folks, look, she's 5'1". She's pushing 50. She can drag a 230-pound man down a ladder. What's your excuse?

This guy gets heavier every time you talk about it. I love that. It was 200, 220, now he's 230. You know, it occurred to me the first time I didn't factor in the turnout gear, right? So yeah, the guy was probably, he was certainly over 200 pounds, wasn't he?

Fair. He was. He was. He was a bigger guy in our class. There you go. And that was Jared, as I recall. Is that right? Jared, yes. Jared, yes. Big Jared going down the ladder with a little help from Candace McDonald. I love it. Thanks so much. You're welcome back here anytime. And be careful out there.

Thank you so much for having me. And I encourage you to put your application in to volunteer, Mike. You know what? I paid my dues. I got a helmet around here somewhere. I do. You do have a firefighter's helmet. I don't know where I put that thing. No, it was the first season of Dirty Jobs, a woman named Holly. It was up in Fremont, California. And these guys, Candice, you'll love this. They called Dirty Jobs and they said, would you be interested?

And I said, well, of course. And they were having the same problem then. This is almost 20 years ago. And they said, what would be good TV for you? And I said, can you find like an old house and just catch it on fire and let me put it out? And they said, we do that all the time. In fact, we got our eye on a crack house right now. I won't tell you where it was, but it was abandoned and it was no good. And they burned this thing to the ground. And I'll tell you, man, Chuck, honestly, you're hanging onto the hose. You got...

two people on either side of you and you are running into a burning building and knocking down those flames and it is a freaking rush. There's really nothing like it and I totally get why that saving lives, so many things about the whole process are delightfully addictive. Definitely, definitely. That just turned into a plug for season one of Dirty Jobs. Now available on Max. Check it out, folks. Thanks, Candice. Thanks, Candice.

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Joining us now to elevate the sense of urgency even further with regard to our country's volunteer fire department is Jonathan, oh God, what's your last name? Don't tell me, Dayton. It's Jonathan Dayton. How are you? Good, how are you, Mike? I'm great, thanks. Forgive me, I got my notes all around me in a pile of disorganized rubble. But now, as I look at where you're sitting...

I'm not sure how to describe what I'm seeing. It looks like you started to build a room but kind of quit when you got two-thirds of the way through. Yeah, so my friend and I actually have a small podcast where we talk literally about everything and anything, and this is kind of our other studio. The unfortunate thing is that the Wi-Fi isn't the greatest in the building, but the studio is what's behind me. Well, you know what? In life, and I'm sure you've learned this as a firefighter many times, you play the cards. You're dealt.

And you do the best you can with the materials that you have. Where in the country are you exactly? Yeah, so I'm located in Cumberland, Maryland, which is in Allegheny County. Basically on the little skinny slice of Maryland that people often forget about. That's where I'm located. I love Cumberland. You're not far from like Frostburg State, the college? Yeah, I actually graduated from Frostburg State. So I'm only about 15 minutes away from Frostburg.

Unbelievable. I mean, this is probably not the best endorsement you're going to hear from Frostburg. I had a great time visiting there every time I visited, but that town, I think, tell me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Frostburg like on the top 10 party schools in the country for like a long time?

I don't know if they've been on the top 10. I know that our neighboring state university, Morgantown at WVU, is definitely up there with party schools. But Frostburg, I try to avoid the party scene as much as possible. So it's possibly that they could have been the list, but I wasn't there. I'll preface that. What did you learn at Frostburg? And did it have anything to do with the career in which you presently find yourself ensconced?

Yeah, so I work in healthcare currently. I run a statewide nonprofit. I went to school for pre-medicine, decided that I didn't like chemistry at all, and so I switched majors to psychology. I still kept pre-med, but I loved learning about thought and the brain a lot more, so that was my undergrad was in psych. But while I was at Frostburg, I did go back and get my degree in fire science as well, which kind of segues into the firefighting thing.

So fire science is the name of the major, the actual degree. That's a thing. It is. It is. That's what my associates is in. While I was getting my bachelor's in psychology, I went back to school at the same time, which was a little bit crazy on my behalf, and got my fire science degree. And it's a lot of fire prevention, building codes, sprinklers, things like that are what you learn in the fire science program.

I think that is really interesting and super healthy. I talk about this a lot in my foundation, you know, the idea that when it comes to education, people tend to get in one vertical or the other. It's kind of like with vocations, right? It's blue collar or white collar. In your case, I just wonder how many psych majors also got a degree in fire science. And I'm guessing the list is pretty short.

I'm sure it's pretty short. I've always said when I went to school to get a degree that I was going to make sure that my associate's, master's, bachelor's, and doctorate, which I'm finishing up, all have different viewpoints. So I think it's important to be well-rounded. And one of the reasons why I went back for my fire science degree, I think it can only advance me in the volunteer service, fire and EMS service. So I thought it would be a valuable major. What are you getting your doctorate in?

Public Health. My master's is in Business Management and Leadership, and so my doctorate's going to be in Public Health. So four separate fields not even close to being related to each other. Good Lord, dude. All right, look, I don't want to pry, but how's the, are you on a student loan sort of situation now? You going to be okay paying all this stuff off in the coming years? Yeah, I've been very blessed over the years to have great parent support. So my doctorate's the only one that's going to be on loan.

All three of the degrees have been paid out of pocket and paid in full. So very fortunate and blessed there to have that support. So we'll see once the degree's over within about a year or so how much I actually owe back to the government, but we'll see.

Talk to me then about, I mean, because you've got this incredibly well-rounded curriculum vitae, how does the role of first responder factor into that? And where does it live sort of in the hierarchy or the chronology of how you see yourself when you look in the mirror? Who's looking back exactly? Yeah.

You know, when I look into the mirror, I'm hoping that someone looking back at me is not only my younger self, but someone a little bit wiser and older as well. I think when it comes to my education and the fire service, there's a real big connection between the two for a variety of reasons. My start in the fire service was kind of non-traditional in a sense that, like Candace, where she didn't have much family, I did have family, and I still consider that kind of the non-traditional role of sorts.

My father was involved in the fire service for about 15 years prior to me entering. And in the fire service, you don't realize that there's more than just riding fire trucks and ambulances around. A lot of extracurriculars come into play. There are associations, there are state associations, there are national associations and councils like what Candace is a part of.

And a lot of that takes business acumen and leadership skills to run those organizations. So I think that the education that I've been afforded to have has definitely made me a well-rounded person to serve my community in a little bit different capacity other than just riding on the fire engine and putting out fires. Well, what's your take then on why recruitment has become such an enormous challenge? And talk a little bit, if you can, about that.

how that challenge is impacting that industry where you live specifically, but also more broadly across the country.

So, you know, in the volunteer service, it does take time. It takes time away from your family. Training hours have only increased, right? In the same token, volunteerism, like Candice had mentioned, is down across the board. In my generation, which is Gen Z, so I'm still one of those last additions to Gen Z, so I'm only 25, people are money-driven. They are financially driven. So if there isn't a mode of work,

for money, incentives, you know, volunteering your time for free often isn't something you normally think of. You know, sense of community service and civic engagement is down across the board. Where I live, it definitely is down across the board. I always tie it back to the area in I live and you know we have seen a huge decrease in population over the last 10 years from 2010 to 2020 the census, Allegheny County is down about 10,000 people.

And so you look at the volunteer service and you're like, you know, let's supplement those with some paid staffers as well. But how can you do that if your tax base continues to leave, right? There's no money to pay paid people either. There's a very fine line and balance that needs to be struck between promoting volunteerism and promoting the career service, but also promoting the fire service in general.

And again, you know, my generation, money-driven, financially driven, and I think that, you know, just that sense of community and civic engagement is down. And so I'm hopeful that with this conversation and with other conversations that I'm having across the country that we can reignite and spark that civic engagement piece for younger members of society to really get involved and give back because, you know, that's what we did in the 80s and 90s and the early 2000s. And, you know, I want to see that come back into play.

Well, I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but I'd be curious to get your thoughts, too, on another thing that I've read a lot about with respect to Gen Z and how that group of people in general is responding to work.

in general, specifically work ethic. There's a real suspicion, I think, among a lot of 25-year-olds, and it's not unfounded, that the baby boomers came along and basically spent all the money, and now there are all these old people in the country and a relatively small number of people your age, and everybody's looking to them

to work their ass off and keep the social security thing going. And there's a lot of pushback against that. And the thing I worry about is that that conversation winds up turning work into the enemy. And once you make work the enemy, then you start thinking in a certain way that probably impacts volunteerism as well.

So I guess the question is, why do you give a damn? Why do you care as much as you do about the stuff you seem to care about?

It's the community. You know, I had a daughter within the last year, so that's changed my mindset a lot. And being from a family that is so inclined to give back to the community, whether that's through donations to our hospital system, through volunteering at the fire company or on a board of directors at our local federal credit union, you know, that sense is gone. But my parents raised me to, you know, remember where I came from.

And coming from a small rural town, all of my friends said, as soon as we graduate, we want to leave. We want to go expand our opportunity elsewhere because there's more opportunity elsewhere. But there's opportunities where they're from, too. They just have to realize them, but also be a part of that conversation and solution.

And I think that they don't realize they can be a part of those conversations and solutions. They can run for public office. They could join Rotary. They could join the Lions Club. They could sit on a civic engagement board. There are opportunities for them to voice their opinions and get involved and create that change. I think that part of it is they're afraid, but also the easier way out is just to say that I'm gonna move and leave, right? And so again, I think it takes more people put into a room together to have these conversations and to listen to these conversations

to really plant the seed and start to spark to changing the mindset, which will ultimately change how folks view volunteerism in the community, but more importantly, in our conversation, volunteerism in the fire service. I see what you did there. Set a spark for volunteerism in the fire service. Very clever. Yeah, that's right. Just want you to know I'm paying attention. That psych degree is coming in handy with all your subliminal phraseology. I like it.

Go back for a second though. Do you think that the generational component in firefighting in general is working against the ability right now? Like for instance, I talked to a lot of farmers, you know, one and a half percent of the people in this country are farmers and something like 99% of them come from farmers.

And they came from farmers. And you start to see the same thing with the Marines and military. And you see it in the skilled trades in general. And I just wonder, like, it's not going to work to simply preach to the choir. We've got to talk to people like Candace who are first generation in this space. And I just wonder how you can make a persuasive case for them.

Yeah, that's a great question. And so, again, I say I'm still non-traditional, but in the sense that I'm different than Candice is that, again, it was generational for me. My father was involved. I got involved. And a lot of the volunteer service, fire service, is, you know, your parents and grandparents that were involved. But we're getting away from that.

You know, I was always given the choice growing up that, you know, I didn't have to follow in my father's footsteps. I was at a point in life where I enjoyed giving back and it was something that I wanted to do. But now you're seeing a dynamic switch where, you're right, the farmers aren't following their father's footsteps into farming. Or the volunteer fire service, the children aren't following their grandparents and parents into the volunteer service. They're getting away from it.

It all starts with those conversations and I think that, you know, it's really challenging because you have to sell what the volunteer service is. If you look back, and this is way before my time, back in the 80s and 70s, you know, the volunteer fire service was a club. It was a place that you wanted to belong to. There was a list of 100 people that have applied to that department that wanted to join. It was an elite organization.

And nowadays it's not the same. The volunteer fire service across the United States has definitely changed and emerged for good and for bad. And again, we have to get back to remembering our roots, but also remembering the future and how we can progress towards advancement. And you mentioned, you asked a really good question about communication between the younger generation and kind of the older generation. And it's definitely challenging. And I think that it throws a wrench into a lot of things because

The older generation, they often say to me, you just don't understand what we went through and what we should do and how you remember tradition. And the younger generation is more focused on advancement. They're like, you don't understand. This is why we want to do X, Y, and Z things.

But I think the balance portion is important, finding that right balance. And I think that it takes, again, I keep saying the word conversation, but it takes conversations to find that balance. And I think that a lot of folks just don't want to have them because they're afraid. They're afraid they're going to lose something, whether it's something that they've experienced for many years, that traditional piece. And the younger generation is focused on maybe losing something else too as well. But it's finding that right balance. And I think that starts with conversations that are tough conversations.

For sure. But, you know, I think there's something very primal

About what you do. There's certainly something very primal about fire We need it and the minute it gets out of control We need to stop it and it doesn't much matter where your philosophy sits, right? If you're a biped in this century or 20 centuries ago You're still dealing with the same basic thing this need for a first responder this need for people who will parachute into

Look, I know there's all different types of firefighting, but I wonder, were you paying attention years ago when that horrible fire in, where was it, Arizona or Nevada, where like 19 hotshots lost their life? I'm just drawing a blank. Granite Mountain Hotshots. Yeah, that. How do you think about risk as a 25-year-old guy doing a dangerous job who just had his first child?

You know, that's a really good question. You know, my wife wants me to slow down, right? Because there's challenges associated and job hazards associated with firefighting.

And it's different from being a volunteer. In the career service, you sign up for it because it's going to be your paycheck, right? It's different. In the volunteer fire service, it's not your salary. It's not your income. You're voluntarily running out your door when the siren blows to go save a life and risk your own.

And so my mindset's changed, right? When I was 18, 19, it was gung-ho, run as fast as I can to the firehouse, get on the fire truck and do the job, right? And it still is. That's still my mindset, wanna provide an excellent service to the community. But also at the back of my mind is I need to be extra safe because the folks that care about me the most are the ones at home. My daughter, my wife, my parents, my grandparents, right?

my niece and nephew. So, you know, the mindset's definitely changed for me as a 25-year-old as I continue to progress, you know, in the fire service going on my about eighth or ninth year now as an active firefighter. You know, it's definitely growing and changing into that older, maybe a little bit wiser mindset that I once didn't have. What about the idea that

You know, it's not like you have to make a meal out of everything. It's not like you have to dedicate your entire life to putting out fires. Make the case for the opportunities or the benefits that somebody could enjoy from spending a couple of years volunteering, or maybe four or five years, or whatever period of time. Who cares about the period of time? What can you get on a transactional way, if not money?

from doing the thing you're describing. Your heart will be healthier when you're done. Period. You will feel a sense of community. You will learn things about your community you didn't. You will understand and can relate to challenges of your neighbors who've gone through fires.

You will feel a sense of pride for not only your department but your community. And overall you'll just be healthier. And you know mentally and I think physically even if you're not fighting fires like Candice had mentioned there are a variety of the things you can do. I always tell this to every department that I get to talk to. You know there's always been this thing about well we need someone to do this, this and this for this amount of work to be an active person or we need them to show up this many times. Guess what? They're volunteer.

take them for as much time as they're willing to give. Because if you start pushing people away, then you're not going to have anybody there, period. And so you're right, transactional, one year, five years, I'll take you for however long you want to be involved.

because that means that's one less, potentially, one less call that I have to run and leave Christmas dinner for, or one last Thanksgiving dinner that I have to run out because someone else is there to help me. Or, what I often tell my friends is that I don't like fighting fire alone. You always heard the two in, two out buddy system, right? I like to have people there to help me, and when I'm there by myself, it's a big challenge. And so, encouraging folks to join because they will feel a sense of community and betterment.

is a good pitch, but also it's truthful and if they join, they will say it for themselves.

I've been keeping track. You've said the word community five times since we've been talking, which is interesting on a couple of different levels. First of all, you do live in such a specific community. For people who don't know Western Maryland, look at a map and zoom in, and whatever it is you're thinking about it, it's special. It's small, and it's right on the border. It's such an interesting group of individuals. Every time I go through that part of the country, I'm

I'm just struck by the fact that I grew up in the same state, but a world away. You came from a world away. I don't know your heritage, but I'd love to hear about it because wherever your folks came from, here you sit wrapped in an American flag. And that's kind of a community thing too, I guess.

Yeah, so I was adopted at four months old. Came from South Korea. The short version is that my parents had trouble conceiving a child, so they decided to go for adoption. They graciously and thankfully chose me. I came over at four months, and so I really haven't experienced any other culture or don't remember my South Korean culture. I do remember growing up, it was, you know, all Western Maryland based. You know, it was the

country roads, ATVs, fishing, hunting. And if you think of Western Maryland, it is community and it's small town America. Reason why I chose this specific shirt today. And if you can't see on the plot and behind you, but there's an American flag in our podcast studio here locally too.

because it's a lot different. And I think that folks that listen to the podcast and obviously know you and what you do, it's all really relatable. But it's community-based, right? And so in these small rural towns and communities, it's a lot different. Everyone knows everybody. Everyone knows everyone's tea and gossip, and they want to be there to save their neighbor, where that isn't the case in larger cities and urban areas. They have a different mindset sometimes. And obviously, too, in larger cities, it's career firefighters and EMS and not volunteers.

And so a lot of the volunteers across the country come from these small farming rural towns. And that's why community is, you know, not only important to me, but I think important to the volunteer fire service and something that needs to be said more often, but more loudly as well. Well, we're certainly saying it here because from where I sit, Jonathan, I see more people than ever in my life feeling disconnected from more things, right?

We're disconnected from where our food comes from, where our energy comes from. So much of what we rely upon is the function of skilled tradespeople and volunteers doing these things. What fascinates me, and really the reason I wanted to talk to you, is because at the same time, we've got these giant deficits

in the ranks of farmers and skilled tradesmen and first responders and firefighters in particular. Would it be ironic if the secret for more people who are currently feeling disaffected and disconnected from life could get plugged back in by simply volunteering in the way you're talking about?

100%. In the podcast, you know, we're talking strictly about the fire service, but it's in general, right? Skilled laborers and trades and the fire service and EMS. People can be significantly more connected with their community if they decided to go down one of those routes. I think, you know, candidates be like, listen, it's

talk about the fire service and build it up, but it's more than just a fire service. There are vacancies around every part of rural America. You know, we lost our paper mill here in Western Maryland in 2019. 700 jobs were lost in a community that only has about 2,000 residents. Now think about that. Now not all of them lived in that community, but devastated us.

And folks were worried about the financial impacts and obviously the job loss, but they didn't realize that also impacted the volunteers. Folks that usually donated to the volunteer fire department no longer were donating because they didn't have the funds, right? You know, folks that usually lived here and gave back had to move to find other job opportunities. The investments in those industries, you know,

We see them day in and day out, you know, slipping away. But I think it's important to echo the importance of all those industries that require volunteers or as careers because they're important to rural America, small town America, and our community. Look, ma'am, you're right. You were lucky to be selected as you were by the parents who you have, but they were lucky to pick you as well. I think the country has a lot to learn.

from this particular 25-year-old. Candice mentioned a site. Can you just remind us of what it is again, where people should go to learn more about all this? Yeah. Make Me a Firefighter is the NBFC site for the whole country. But I also would say that your local jurisdiction, and when in doubt, if you can't locate

the right resources, walk down the street to your local fire company, knock on the door. They usually meet every week or every month, or they're usually hanging out there because that's the hangout spot. So ask them for an application, have them give you a tour, do a ride along because I guarantee you once you hop on a fire truck and hear the siren going down the road, passing cars blown through stoplights, that you will get the hook, right, the hook, and you will want to join and give back. Love it.

All right, man. Thank you for doing what you're doing. I really appreciate your time. With a little bit of luck, we'll crash your website with people who want to learn more. That's fantastic. I appreciate the time, Mike and Chuck, and thank you so much for having us on. All right. Hey, what's your podcast called, by the way?

It's the subject matter podcast. And so we literally frame it as we're experts in nothing here to give your opinions on all of it. So we have guests on as friends and just folks in the community. And we just chat about random stuff. It's just something fun to do. We're so busy. I travel the country and speak and talk and school and everything else that this is just something we do every couple of weeks just to relax. I don't know when you sleep, but good luck with that doctorate. Congratulations on your shirt. Say hey to the folks and be careful out there. Thanks, Mike. Thanks, Chuck. Thanks, Jonathan.

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