385: I Don't Want to Manage People Like Me with Karey Kirkpatrick
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I don't want to manage people like me. It's the name of this episode. This is me, Mike Rowe, by the way. The way I heard it, episode number 385. I'm just so pleased with this quote, Chuck. I just wanted to lead with it. It ought to be on a t-shirt. It ought to be on the wall in here somewhere in this conversation with Kerry Kirkpatrick, today's guest. He laid that little bit of wisdom on us.

And there's a lot of wisdom. I mean, speak softly and carry a big resume. Yes, and he does have a big, big resume, yeah. He's a writer and a director and a producer, a former actor, a current singer.

And when I tell you, you know, his work, believe me, you know, it Charlotte's web over the hedge, the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy chicken run James and the giant peach, the rescuers down under put him on the map. He's done a ton. Carrie has, and I know him.

Because we completely geeked out about nine years ago in one of the hotels down here in Santa Monica. I think it was Shutter's or maybe Casa Del Mar. But Mary was with us. My business partner used to represent this guy. And she put a deal together for him that essentially would have put him in charge of DreamWorks. Right.

An amazing deal. And it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. You're going to love Carrie, but I was still trying to pry Mary away from her law firm. And I was so interested in all the different people she was representing at the time, like John Cleese and Donald Sutherland. She was like, oh, this guy, this writer I have, this Carrie Kirkpatrick. She always talked so complimentary of him. I went out one evening and we all had drinks at Casa Del Mar together.

And she didn't tell me what a theater geek he is and what a crazy musical, I mean, he loves musical theater. And he wound up not taking the deal of deals in order to pursue a musical. And ever since then, I was like, oh, you know what? I'm going to have to, one of these days, I really want to sit down and see what makes this guy tick.

There's a lot of ticking with Gary. Absolutely. He talks about the creative process, what he does. He turned down that deal because he liked what he was doing better. He didn't want to be managing people like him. And so he wanted to be people like him. He wanted to be creative and write. He's also had a show on Broadway. Oh, yeah. Something Rotten is the name of the musical. Oh, yes. And it's terrific.

I mean, if you haven't heard the songs, go Google it, watch it. I think it's coming back now for like a revival and it's playing in various, I think it's playing in London right now, but he's really clever and he's really smart and everybody loves him. And he's so soft spoke, very soft spoken. And he takes his time and he arranges his ideas and his thoughts. And then he lays them on you. We had so much fun. We poured some whiskey and full disclosure, we had a few, but

And that was nice. So look, I mean, normally I don't want to oversell it and I'm not sure how interesting it is to crawl inside of the mind of a real, true, successful Hollywood writer, producer, director. But this guy has an amazing work ethic and he talked an awful lot, both metaphorically and literally, about the lessons he's learned in this business and

And if he hasn't written a book, he should. He probably has. Yeah. That didn't come up in the research. It didn't come up. No. But you know what? Spoiler alert. He's written 62 screenplays. Right. And what you're going to learn about how they evolve and the difference between number one and 62, I think is one of the most interesting things. The second most interesting thing. The first is that I don't want to manage people like me.

And you're about to find out why. It's episode 385. It's Kerry Kirkpatrick right after this. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-dum.

At the end of this commercial, Chuck and I are going to sing you a jingle for ZipRecruiter. Now, full disclosure, ZipRecruiter didn't ask us to write a jingle for them. I took the initiative because I wanted to distinguish this podcast from all the other ones that ZipRecruiter advertises on, right? And I thought an unsolicited jingle for no extra charge would put me in their good graces. Did it work? No.

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That's true because it says so in the jingle. The smartest way, not the dumbest way or the hardest way or the most expensive, least effective, but instead the smartest way to hire. Are you rolling, Taylor? Of course he's rolling. He's in one job, three cameras. This is what I deal with all the time, Gary. I mean, just still, you've had that computer all your life and you look at it like a...

A cow looking at a new gate. I feel like I've been here a year already. All right. I mean, I'm rolling, so I'll figure out the levels as we go along. I mean, we don't really wear these. I'm going to trust that they're sound. They're sound, as long as you make it, because this whole understated thing you're doing. It'll flatten my hair. We can't have that. I'll get headphone hair. Oh, yeah. I've been living with it all week. Mm-hmm.

You don't need to look at me anymore. It's rolling. You may proceed with all due speed. What? Just for fun, just once. This is without a doubt the most esteemed director, producer, Hollywood type we've had. Okay. That is... You really need to...

It is what it is. You really need to thicken your guest list. I know it. We're working on the Rolodex. You know, this town has a lot of really accomplished people in it. I know. None of them have been here. But this room doesn't. Oh, I'm the one who said yes. This is it. You said yes. And now I was just hoping my producer, an old friend of 42 years, would actually say action for once in his life. I thought it would be fun. Really? Yeah, because he's a director. Okay, everybody, set, set, set, energy, energy, energy, and...

Action. I'm in. That's your phone. Exactly. Perfect. I believe it was. You say action and you get a ding. Okay, okay, back to one. And here we go. Energy, energy, energy, and... Do you say action when you're directing? I do, but it's only because I dreamed of it for so long. I think it's the new thing is to not. Well, I mean, that's a Clint Eastwood move, right? Right. He gets all the credit for that? When you're ready. Okay.

From everything I've read, it takes a while for everybody on the set to adjust to that. Like, no clear starting gun creates, I would think, a kind of ambiguity that it could be good. I've only directed one live-action movie and two animated movies, so if I set action on an animated movie, that would be really weird. And draw. Yeah.

What was the first one? Over the Hedge? Over the Hedge. Chicken Run? No, I wrote that. You didn't direct it? I did not. That's got to be frustrating, man, to write a thing you don't get to direct. And cut. He knows that one. Yeah, I wrote the first one, so that was 23 years ago, 24 years ago. Well, I wrote it 26 years ago, but it came out in 2000, and then we just made the sequel.

So that's out on Netflix currently streaming near you. Yeah. And that was, I would say if you spoke to the director of that movie, um,

Which if you spoke to him, that would be tell me what he said, because he won't speak to me. I'm kidding. Who was the director? His name is Sam Fell. And so because it's stop motion claymation, it's a very, very unique skill set. So let's just say it's a shallow pool of people who could actually direct a movie like that. In claymation? Yeah. Isn't this like Gumby stuff?

Yeah, it's a little more sophisticated than that. How sophisticated can clay get? Well, there's armatures underneath the clay. And then these days, there's a lot of green screen and comps and digital doubles that are happening. So it's a mixture of clay and CG. And in Chicken Run, they're only clay from here up and the hands. So the body is actually made of silicone. Sorry, what's an armature? An armature is like a little skeleton...

made of poles and joints that bend. So underneath the chicken, there's like a metal skeleton. And that, because clay, I mean, sometimes it's just clay and you're mixing it. But so the hands and parts of the face are all clay, but the way the body moves has an armature. Gotcha. In computer animation, that armature is digital. Yeah.

It's called the rigging of a character. So when you design a character, they design it, and then it goes to the rigging department, and the rigging department puts all the points where it can move. So if you looked at the human body, like your hand, that's a point, that's a point, that's a point, that's a point.

those are the controls that the animator has to make all the joints or points, the joints. And then the face has thousands of points on it. So the toolbox that informs and governs animation has changed so much.

And so quickly, I would think. Is that, like as a storyteller, how do you think of those tools? I mean, like are they your friend? Is it a thing you have to, like are you obligated almost to use the latest best technology when you're in that world or does it matter? Yeah. I mean, when writing the story, I don't think I tend to think about

I think I naively a lot of times just go, someone will figure out how to do this. I mean, usually the need of the story drives the innovation, right? So if there's something that you couldn't do, like go look at the first Toy Story, right? The human character, you know, Sid looks a little freakish, right?

It took that long to sort of get to where we are today in terms of hair and skin texture. And it just takes a lot of math and computing power to be able to do all of that. So I think what's happened with computer animation, in my mind, is it used to be a little bit clearer of what was animated. Mm-hmm.

and what wasn't, you know, the distinction between live action and animation. I taught a class a couple of years ago at USC Film School. It was actually on Over the Hedge. You're kidding. No, I got... It was an actual class on a movie. The class was we're going to follow a movie from conception through release and go through each of the steps along the way so that students could learn all the various steps of learning a movie. So you would... Each semester, they would pick a movie.

And they asked me to teach it that year. And so I picked a movie that I made, which was Over the Hedge, which has become, it's a little humiliating because all these kids, you know, these, they were four when, so I'm in there like, I grew up with this movie. But Over the Hedge has had a nice resurgence because of TikTok or something with the Gen Z, you know.

So, but some of the people raised their hands and said, what if I'm not that interested in animation, you know, on the first day of class? And I said, well, you tell me the difference between Avatar and Over the Hedge in terms of how much animation there is in Avatar.

or how much animation there is in Avengers. I mean, I would say Avengers is almost over half CG. I mean, there's the real actors, but there's so much effect, and Avatar is such a blending of... What did Avatar cost? $400 million? Right. It's sad that didn't work out. Who passed on the lead? I think it was Matt Damon. Oh, maybe. I think Cameron offered him...

a lot of points, like a chunk. Yeah. And he either couldn't do it or didn't do it. Missed out on about a billion or so. How do you like them apples? Yeah, right. I passed second behind him. Yeah. So the toolbox, I don't think about it as much as a writer. So when you're directing, then you get into how much it costs for the people to use the tools. There's just not a finite amount of money, right? Yeah. So every single thing,

gets reduced to, they call it man hours, or it should be people hours or woman hours. It basically comes down to people that it takes time to execute all of the things that need to be executed. Well, where are you on just this general idea that it's become also hyper real? There's so much CGI. I think some people think it's

it's inherently too much. But I don't know that I agree. I don't know what too much is necessarily. Only that when you spend a ton, you don't necessarily get the return you might want. I think a South Park. Have you seen Six Days to Produce? Love it. Absolutely love that. Love it. In fact...

Mary and I reference it all the time. I should mention my partner Mary was working with you back when, I guess, was it 18, 19 years ago? Right before Over the Hedge. She made the deal. Mary made the deal for Over the Hedge? She made the deal for Over the Hedge. Wow. Look at you go. Yeah.

I want to talk about some of the other deals she did with you, too, actually. But when I saw Six Days to Produce, which is sort of a fly-on-the-wall look at one of the first episodes of season whatever for South Park...

They go from script to screen literally in six days. They have no idea, no concept. And they get through all of it, all of the rendering, all of the clearances. When I look at that and then I look at The Simpsons, which is what, like a 16, 18-month tale, it seems. I think they make each episode about nine months. But there's a writing period. I guess my question is, if I have one, is how do you think about that? How do you think about the quality of animation compared to the quality of the story

Juxtaposed with the cost of the project and where do you wind up feeling? Smart about all of those things coming together. I tend to think the sky's the limit when writing first drafts I think I don't want to put any limits on You know, you don't want to paint yourself in a corner where you create something that can't be executed realistically, but I tend to just think about story when I'm writing and

Then when I'm directing or when I'm the writer working with a director and we're in production, I'm in the middle of that now where you're sitting around and having meetings and it's like, no, we can't do that. And you would tend to think like, because it's computer animation that anything goes, but it works the same as live action, which is just because it's on a computer, there's still locations that have to be built. And so number of locations, right?

can make a budget go skyrocketing. And especially if it's like, wait, you want us to create an entire subway system for this one scene that's half a page? That is a lot of money for very, like, how crucial is it? Can we set this somewhere else? What people tend to forget when they're watching a computer animated movie is that nothing you're looking at exists. Nothing.

Everything has to be created by somebody. It's a virtual world, you know. I did this movie for Warner Brothers called Smallfoot. Sony Pictures Animation was doing the animation. Is this the Big Feet living like above the clouds in the Himalayas? Yeah, yeah. And they're grappling with the myth of humanity? The Smallfoot is, you know, Bigfoot, like what we are to them. Right.

And yeah, they live above the clouds. And they think that they're on the tip of a mountain that shoots through the clouds. But according to their myth, they're floating. Yeah. And what's below is nothingness. And so it was set up to be like, just don't even think about what's below to keep us safe. Basically, their leader was keeping them safe. But in that movie, I was like, oh, wrote something. And then they go on a hang glider.

Well, you don't go to the props department or you don't go to REI and pick up a hang glider. We didn't have one. It has to be built. But we would do something that they called dumpster diving, which is because Sony Pictures has a lot of assets in their dumpster that you would go being like, what do we have in here? So you're just rummaging around the prop department. Rummaging around a digital prop department to see what you can use. And the best thing was we had a scene with a bear in

And we didn't really want to design a bear. So my co-director on the movie, this guy Jason Reissig, took a wolf from the movie Storks and made a bear out of it. Stretched the model. So the bear in Over the Hedge was the wolf in Storks. And you stretch the model as much as you can. And that saves you a lot of money opposed to building it from scratch. Was there an armature in this wolf-bear thing? There is always an armature.

And then you stretch it as far as you can before it breaks, they say, because how much can you repurpose it? It's pretty fascinating, actually. Well, isn't that like the metaphor for this whole industry and everybody in it? Just stretch them until they break, man. And my marriage. So the project you're in now, the

And the reason I wanted to start where we started, even though it appears that we did it completely by accident. In fact, it's all part of my larger conversational plan. I'm being lured into something. Peanuts. Peanuts.

I mean, like the greatest cartoon. I mean, do you even think of it as a cartoon? Do you think of it as a comic strip? How do you think of Schultz? Tell us about this project and what it's going to look like. And if anything we've said so far is relevant to it. Yeah, this came really out of the blue for me last year. So the woman who produced Over the Hedge, Bonnie Arnold,

who is a very seasoned animation producer. She did Toy Story over the head. She did Tarzan for Disney. She did all three How to Train Your Dragon episodes.

She's really top animation producer. Is seasoned a word we can use now, Kerry? I really don't know what's off limits anymore. I mean, euphemistically, I think you'd have to be careful with... I'm fairly certain this will be... Spiced. Go with spiced. I mean, it could be experienced, and I think that's how you meant it, but... I'm from Louisiana, so everything is seasoned. Everything is seasoned. She called and was like, the script...

Needs a rewrite to kind of get it over the finish line. Basically. Mm-hmm. It was a really good Structure and story that was in place that was written by Charles Schultz's son and grandson and the grandsons writing partner and they had come up with this really good story and So I was asked to come in as you sometimes do to do some rewrites on it. Mm-hmm

And I was like, yeah, I'd be flattered. Literally. Are you putting words in Charlie Brown's mouth? Yeah, and I will say, so first, I mean, going back, I did You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown, the musical in high school, and I played Snoopy. So I was given all this Snoopy memorabilia and stuff, which I still have that people gave me. I feel every now and then that I want to fight someone. Wow. I know every now and then what I want to be. A fierce jungle animal crouched from the limb of a tree.

Great music. You're the second person on this podcast who has played Snoopy in his past. To reference that. Yeah. Unbelievable. Neil McDonough was the other. Pleasant day. Pretty skies. Now, did you bring the same level of enthusiasm and volume to that production as you are to this podcast? There's not a lot of air left in the room, Mike. Oh, snap. Diggity dog. He's quiet, Mary, but freaking mean, man. There's a meanness...

So we met, it must have been a while ago, but like at Casa Del Mar, I think. Is that possible? Okay. Like Mary remembers it vividly. She said you and Carrie geeked out on musicals. We did. I believe we did some Oklahoma. Where the wind comes sweeping down the place. I know a lot about musicals. Well. We'll get into that later. We will. Peanuts. Peanuts. Peanuts.

Thanks for bringing it back. I appreciate it. The words directing. Okay. What he just did was he tucked my armature back into my ass a little bit. Oh, my God. I just don't have a lot of time, Mike. And I've already wasted way too much telling you to get here when I do. How's the whiskey, by the way? Try some. Oh, yeah. Yeah, try some. Yeah, cheers. Thanks. Me and Kerry Kirkpatrick just drank some of my granddad's whiskey just to keep the conversation lively. It tastes like it's been through someone. Oh.

That's a Robin Williams joke, by the way. It's called filtering, you animal. It's the charcoal filter. It's the Lincoln County process. In all honesty, the first time I sat down, I mean, when I got offered this gig, I was like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I want to do this. And the first time I opened my computer and typed Charlie Brown, I was like, take the sandals off. You're on holy ground. And it was like,

Yeah, I really kind of felt the responsibility. It's like Lee Mendelsohn stuff, right? Yeah, and just where that sits in my childhood, not only that musical, but those specials and that soundtrack. So you want to know, every time I write Peanuts, I play Vince Guaraldi.

In fact, my kids were making, you know how at the end of the year, Spotify does this, you do your playlist? Oh, right. It goes around on my family's group chat. It's like, what's your playlist? And everybody's whatever, Taylor Swift or whatever. And mine was Vince Giraldi all year long. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do

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I felt like I was in on a secret. A friend of mine, Mike Gellert, you know, introduced me to Grawldy in the early 80s. And I just thought it was the greatest Christmas soundtrack of all time. And then I just took a deeper dive and just listened to it all the time. Skating, underrated. Love it. Every year...

We get the tree. I get all the stuff out of the attic. And I put that on. That's how the Christmas season starts in my house. What's gay? Were they with the album? That song. Right. And while we decorate the tree. It's the fact that the singing is slightly out of tune. Right. But you have to do your, you have to get it up. Right. It's the fact that Linus gets to quote Luke.

On network TV? Yeah. Never happened. Yeah. Impossible. Not just a little bit of Luke. Yeah. The whole story. He tells the story. Yeah. It's the fact that the network executives hated everything about Lee's first cut. I love this story. I wrote a version of it called 30 Minutes of Disappointing Television because that's what one of the executives said. And Schultz, who I think they called Sparky. Yeah, they did.

I was like, no, look, man, here's what I'm willing to do in terms of negotiating. Nothing. Zero point zero. This is it. And he had final say. He had final say. Yeah. And so, I mean, it thrills me that that had such an impact on you because it's not just a terrific piece of art and culture, but it's such a great example of an artist just digging in.

and explaining to Sodom and Gomorrah, this is how we're going to do it. And understanding how his work sits in the psyche of people. I think I'm drawn to it too because, look, I write a lot of family films, I write a lot of animation, and I think it's because I'm drawn to that sort of Joseph Campbell classic mythic storytelling, strong archetypes. Right.

And I think adults, we go to movies and we seek those things for entertainment. Kids go to learn how to live their lives. They go to learn problem solving. They watch other people. That's why kids watch these Disney and DreamWorks animated things over and over again, because they're working something out.

learning how to do some relationship work and problem solving and vicariously living through these characters. And I've always said, like Shrek, I think the reason why Shrek is a billion dollars is because, yeah, it's funny, and Eddie Murphy's funny, and Mike Myers is funny. But that theme of I am ugly and unlovable on the outside, and no one's ever going to see the inside,

is a universal theme that people are just working through over and over again. And I've always thought the brilliance of Toy Story is that it's simultaneously a story about being a kid and about being a parent. Because in the first Toy Story, to go out and go, I am a lost toy. I am separated from Andy, who is my parent. Mm-hmm.

And yet Buzz and Woody are Andy's parents and grappling with a kid that's growing up. And what are we going to do? And that's the genius of that premise is that's why every audience goes. And it's like there is something here for me. And if you can tap into that when you're creating these family films, that it's not just entertainment. There is something way deeper going on. And they are our modern day Aesop's fables. That's what they're doing.

There seems to be a shortage of them today. Maybe that's why we keep going back to the classics. The fact that Peanuts has such an evergreen shelf life. Those themes, they don't go away. They're only, what, seven stories you can tell or something like that? Yeah, that's what they say. Right. So what can you say about this Charlie Brown adventure? What do we know that you can tell? I don't know. Probably not a lot. Okay. Yeah.

Except that... It's not like Roadhouse, right? I mean, we're not going in a whole new... Maybe. Have you seen that, by the way? No, but I'm intrigued. Have you? Yeah. Yeah. I watched it three nights ago. It's kind of amazing. You know, and speaking of tech, because I went and saw Dune a couple of days ago, and you were talking about technology and the toolbox that we use for storytelling, and it is a tool.

And the tool is only as good as the hands of the worker that it's in. And so sometimes this CG toolbox that's being used in movies, I find it to be a stakes killer, which is for me an essential, obviously an essential element of storytelling, which is you have to feel the stakes. And sometimes there's so much CG and where stuff just doesn't quite feel right.

real or like anything can happen or so sometimes I'll go see these movies like where it always gets to this big climax where there's either a massive gorilla or whatever it is. Yeah. And I find myself checking out because there's so much going on and like the laws of gravity don't apply or and it just sort of feels like anything can happen and so consequently it never feels very grounded to me.

Well, if anything can happen, how can you be surprised by whatever happens? Yeah, it's just the stakes never feel like, you know. What's an example of really getting it right? Well, I think Dune just did, because there's obviously a lot of visual effects in that movie, but I never felt him, because he is such a good director. And first of all, I mean, every shot is just like a work of art, but everything felt real and heavy and like...

Even though it's high tech, it still remained feeling like you were there on that planet and with that sand and with those worms and with those ships. And that's one of the things that I like about Chicken Run, actually, is it's sort of deliciously low tech.

Right. Now, which movie, forgive me, you've done so many and I conflate them. And by many, I mean, what was it, two of them, right? The Hedge and the Chicken Run. How many have I done? Well, those two animated ones were the first ones, but then you did the live action with, was it Eddie? I did a live action movie with Eddie Murphy, yeah. What was that one called? Imagine That. It was originally called Nowhere Land when we were shooting it, which I think is a much better title, but that's another story, but.

But in terms of animated movies I've done are the ones that I've directed. Well, the ones... I conflate these two, but there's a scene where a squirrel is like frozen. Yeah, over the hedge. That was over the hedge. That's when Hammy the squirrel drinks the energy drink. Yes. And he's moving so fast that time moves very slow. Right. Very funny. You know what? That was a great day with storyboard artists. So, you know, when you work in animation...

the storyboard artists are not, not like on a live action movie. Storyboard artists in live action are basically drafts of people that are helping you plot out the shots. So that when you show up, you can show them to your DP and,

And they become really useful, especially in effect sequences when you're doing pre-visualization and all of that. But in an animated movie, storyboard artists are writers in their own right, and they're bringing gags. So you're working with an entire story team in shaping the movie. And that was one of the storyboard artists had the idea of what if Hammy drank an energy drink and then...

And I think it was because Tim Johnson, my co-director on that, like majored in physics at Northwestern and really, really bright guy. He could get into the physics of how time would move. And we were just like, can we do that? And it was just like, yeah, let's do it. And I will say, just creatively, it was one of the most satisfying audience experiences I've had of being in something that I've written and directed because the laughs, like...

It started, oh, I get it. And then we just kept going. The laps just kept rolling and kept rolling and kept rolling. And so, yeah, that was one of those. I remember being, I did James and the Giant Peach, you know, and that was one of those where it's like, all right, I'm working in a Roald Dahl, his first children's novel, Precious Ground. No pressure, dude. Jeez, it was. But, I mean, maybe this is sacrilege to say, but I think Roald Dahl became a better writer

children's book writer by his last book than his first. He never wanted to be. James and the Giant Peach started as James and the Giant Cherry Tree, and it was a story he told to his oldest daughter. And they were like, you should write this down. So he did. But it has that very much like I was just making stuff up to my daughter each night. So to create two great villains like Spiker and Sponge and kill them in chapter three, it's just not...

Not story structure. You wouldn't kill your villains. He didn't do it in Matilda. Right. Right. Trunchbull stays through Matilda. So one of the first things we had to convince the Dahl estate was we can't kill off Spiker and Sponge in the third scene in the movie. Right. So then it became, well, how do we get them to New York then? If James just, you know, and they figured out, like, how do they get there?

And one of the storyboard artists, Kelly Asbury, just went, what if we just say they got so angry they got in their car and just drove across the ocean, the floor of the ocean. So when they pull up in New York, they open the car and water pours out and fish. And we were like, yes. Why not? It felt like a very Roald Dahl thing to do. So that's what we did. So to have that permission to just kind of puke up anything that occurs to you.

Obviously, that can't happen in live action, so you're just using more of your brain, I would imagine. Well, and weirdly, that...

Because James and the Giant Peaches bookended with live-action sequences. So that was Joanna Lumley and Miriam Margulies playing Spiker and Sponge, and that part was live-action. But it exists in this very Roald Dahl, Tim Burton, Henry Selick world. Have we seen that before? Like live-action combined? Yeah, they've bookended some things before. Not a lot. I'm always interested when the media gets mixed like that. I remember the early episodes of Monty Python.

would be video and film. Like everything outside was always film. Everything inside was video. And it was so jarring sometimes to see a scene go from, to see them walk outside. And as a kid watching that, I didn't know what I was looking at. I just knew that it feels different to your eye. - Yeah, and the video cameras were too big and they're out shooting on 16 millimeter Bolex, out with the stuff that they're doing.

But they've done it. They did it brilliantly in the Lego movie, the live action interlude in the middle. Do you watch virtually everything that comes out? Animated? Yeah. No, not everything.

Weirdly, after I made this small foot, I was like over saturated. I couldn't watch an animated movie for like two years for some reason, which is that's not true. I did because I'm in the academy and I had to watch them to vote on them. But I wasn't racing to watch them like I had before. And I think it's just because I had OD'd and needed a break. How many of those trophies do you have? Which ones? Any of them.

You know, the Academy type thing. Oh, no Academy Awards. No? I'm on my way. I'm one away from losing an EGOT. Hmm. Oh. Which would be a high honor. So I've lost two Tonys, and I've lost an Emmy, and I've lost a Grammy. I need to lose an Oscar. Well, there's still time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you had your whole life ahead of you. Yeah. Why aren't you running Disney today? Or why aren't you running DreamWorks? Oh, because I had the opportunity to be an executive director.

to be a chief creative officer at DreamWorks. I know. I was trying to pry your old lawyer away from her firm while she was doing that deal. That's right. And so I knew of you and I knew that it was, you know,

Like she couldn't take my call for a few days because she was busy doing things on your behalf. So I just thought, well, whatever. Good for him. He's going to be running a very big company, but you're not. Yeah. So Jeffrey Katzenberg was my first boss. So my first job was Disney animation. I went to USC film school and then got a job as a staff writer at Disney animation and then wrote the rescuers down under for them. And Jeffrey was running the studio then. It's always Jeffrey, right? And he was very intimidating. Yeah.

And then I wrote a few things. That's where James and the Giant Peach was. I wrote the third Honey, I Shrunk the Kids movie. This was really early in my career. And then Jeffrey left and went off to start DreamWorks. And I was writing some other live action stuff. Well, the exec producer on James and the Giant Peach had made a deal with Aardman and with Pathé, a French company.

So he brought me over to rewrite the first Chicken Run. So that was 97. And then I wrote that for a year. And then that's when they decided we need to get a U.S. distributor. We're going to bring it to DreamWorks. We're going to go meet with Katzenberg. And I was like, well, I'm going to be replaced. That's what's going to happen. I know how this goes. Now we're going to get Hollywood Studio involved and everything.

But I went way back with Jeffrey. I wrote an animated musical for DreamWorks called Tiny the Alligator, which I had to pitch, and I was singing with my writing partner and playing piano. And after what he went, hey, have you done any acting? And I was like, yeah, well, I started as an actor. And he said, we're doing this movie, The Rocketeer, and we're having a hard time finding the lead. Will you come in and read for it? I was like, what?

So I didn't become the Rocketeer. I didn't get it. I was up for the lead. But in the Rocketeer, what happened? I didn't get it. So when we reconnected, he was like, oh, do you remember that? He was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I didn't get replaced. And the opposite happened. He actually...

loved the work that was being done. And when the movie came out, he was extremely happy and then offered me like a three picture deal at DreamWorks and an office. And so I was there. I was the consultant on Madagascar and I was writing a movie called Holy Cow. And then I wrote a few things there. And then at some point he was, when they took the company public, he said he needed to name a successor to

and asked if it could be me, which was kind of really, I did not see that coming. He asked you if it could be you? Yeah, if I was interested. He wasn't just asking, wandering around muttering, could it be? No, he took me to breakfast and he was like, I've always wanted DreamWorks to be a filmmaker-driven company, sort of like Pixar was. So direct this movie and then you'll become chief creative officer. Where'd you go to breakfast? Arts Deli on Ventura. And you have any idea it's coming? No.

I mean, no, no, no. I, that was, I didn't know what Jeffrey was famous for these two breakfasts in a row. You know, one was at seven and one was at seven 30. I, the call came out of nowhere. And then I called Ann Daly, who was a friend who was his chief operating officer. And, uh, I had to go meet with her and I was like, is he, is this, am I being punked? And how do you feel about this?

I will say, I mean, we always had a really great relationship. People used to say, how do you like working with Jeffrey? And I said, I like it. He stabbed you in the front. You see it coming. That's where I like to be stabbed. Right. And I was never shy about speaking my mind. And I think he appreciated that. And he appreciated the storytelling aspect.

and I don't know. It's good to have a fan in high places. Well, sure it is. And so I directed Over the Hedge, which was a joyous, I mean, really one of the top creative, top three creative experiences of my life. And then when I finished doing that, I had young kids and I had this musical that I wanted to write. And I also decided, I don't think I want to manage people like me.

Write that down, Chuck. I think I want to be managed. I don't think I want a stream of people like me coming in and whining about why it's not working here. Right, more money, please. I want to be the whiner, I think, not the whined two. Amazingly self-aware. How old are your kids at this point? My kids are 26, 23, and 21. I mean at that point. Oh, sorry. They were young. Seven, five, and three.

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So you have a chance to run DreamWorks with your own young family. I mean, that just seems like somebody in your position at that point would have done everything they could to get to that point. And there you are at, maybe it's his first breakfast of the day. Maybe it's the second. We can't be sure. And you get the offer. And it's not an immediate yes. Is it an immediate no? Do you think about it? Do you? Honestly, I got to go. I mean, I'm

Called home, and my wife was like, what was that about? It's like, well, you're not going to believe this. But no, like have a contract that thick that Mary negotiated that was like, yeah, like an executive contract. But, you know, I had to – do you know the Peter principle? The tendency to fail upwards, I think? Well, it's getting promoted more.

To your level of incompetence. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. We're all maxed out here. Yeah. We're all Peter. But I was talking to another friend of mine who was like, yeah, that's the Peter principle. And I have the David principle, which is getting promoted to your level of unhappiness. Oh, wow. And because I think what tends to happen, here's my theory on it, Mike, if you're asking. Oh, yeah. Look, they're taking notes. Well, actually, we're just searching for titles online.

I'm working on a screenplay actually. So, cause I'm going to pitch you at the end. So stand by for that. Oh, okay. Great. Big day for you. Congratulations. Oh, look at the time when you're in high school, right? Or whenever your artistic dreams sort of come about,

Usually it's like I look at them as very sort of wide band, like I'm going to be in the band. I'm going to be in drama. And then it just becomes a process of narrowing. Oh, you know, not just the band, but this or not drama. But, you know, then the older you get, you get into these like screenwriting or whatever it is that you're doing. And then you set these benchmarks. Yeah.

Next thing you know, you have a tuba. Well, when I started film school, I was like, I want to write and direct and have my own production company like Amblin. And these are the goals that you set when you're 21. And then all my energy goes into getting that first writing gig.

And then you get that, and then you're building your resume building. You're doing all this. And then you're like, but I want to write and direct. And then you finally get an opportunity to direct. And it's like, all right, now I'm gunning for that production company. And then you get the production company. And then you're ladder climbing. You're goal setting. You're achieving goals, hopefully. And it takes time. And then at some point, and part of this comes with age, but when you get one of those things and you go, hmm.

Why am I not, why does this not fill me with elation? Is that all there is? And then you go, oh, maybe I was happier just writing. Or maybe, like, so I had a production company. I was like, I do not need to have a production company. For the same reason of managing people. I was like, I don't think this makes me happy. And I think it's very difficult to have set a goal and to reach it

And then to acknowledge that didn't make me happy because it feels like you're taking a step down a rung. Whereas opposed to it's like, no, if you really just sort of following your bliss or whatever, like acknowledging, oh, I think this is good for me. I think it's hard for people to not make that feel like some kind of compromise or like you're settling. Or at least it was for me.

So it's pretty easy to get caught up in, oh, wow, I could be the chief creative officer of DreamWorks. But then to really sit and go, what would my days be like? What would I be actually doing with my time? And you know what I'm currently doing with my time? I actually really enjoy. And it gives me time for these other things that are really important to me, which is being very present in my kids' lives.

I'm usually the steward of my own time. And in fact, the times that I'm most unhappy is when I am at the mercy of somebody else's schedules or deadlines or even though it— When your time is not your own. Yeah. And so I remember—because I've dabbled in TV. And I was talking with a friend of mine who's a composer, and I had sold this pilot to Seth MacFarlane's company.

And was writing it with David Goodman, who at the time was the president of the Writers Guild and was running Family Guy. And so it was a primetime animated thing. And my composer friend who works in television is like, why are you creating a TV show? Why do you want to run a TV show? You have such a good life. Do you not want a life? Yeah. And I was like, oh, I just, because it's a thing I haven't done yet.

It's a notch on the belt and it's been one of those things that I've always wanted to. I mean, I say that, here's the truth. I just get ideas and feel restless when they haven't come to fruition. That is my main driving force. You're a farmer. You plant the thing and you're agitated if it's not growing. Like you want to get the thing out of the ground and into the barn. You want to reap. I'm restless when an idea has not been realized.

And by the way, that idea could be a movie or a play or a musical or a piece of furniture, because I also do woodworking. Of course you do. Of course you thought you were a shopper for furniture. No, no, no. Every now and then I see a couch in my mind and I got to buy it. No, no, woodworking is sort of my hobby. And I think it's because I can get an idea for a bookshelf on Friday and

and have it on Sunday, as opposed to I get an idea for an animated movie. And every time I tell my mom I'm on an animated movie, she says, well, I hope I'm alive when that comes out. Because they take a long time. And these musicals take a long time. So everything, the gestation period takes a very, very long time. So what was the idea, the splinter in your mind when Katzenberger made you the offer to

that you suddenly found more appealing than the offer itself? You mean the musical I was working on? So it was a musical. That has been a lifelong dream. I started in musical theater. I wanted to be a musical theater performer, hence our rendition of You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown. But I realized early on I wasn't a good enough singer. So yeah, I just thought about the other things that I wanted to do and decided,

Yeah, I was. And I think the guy that there was another guy coming that was rising through the ranks there. And during the time I was doing Over the Hedge, his name is Bill Domaschke. And we were friends and it was like, oh, maybe you guys can do this job together. So I had I was like, you know, I think he's great for the job. And I think you'll be probably in good hands with him. So is is the musical that was in your mind then? Was that the one that turned out to be something rotten? It is. Yeah.

And how long did it take for Something Rotten to get on Broadway? Well, Wayne and I had the idea. Your brother. My brother, who I wrote that with, along with John O'Farrell. But Wayne and I had the idea since 1996. O'Farrell, British guy? He is British, yes. Terribly British. Yes. I mean, Irish, really, by his dad. But yeah, he lives over in London. We had worked together on Chicken Run.

And then we adapted a novel of his. He went off and became a novelist. Why did novelists always go off and become one? I don't know. I never hear that assigned. He went off and became a plumber. Yeah, it doesn't, right. It doesn't have the same ring, does it? Yeah, that's true. He was a TV writer and then went off. Went off to be a novelist. 96, I was actually in New York for the premiere of James and the Giant Peach.

And I used to work at Disney World at Epcot Center doing improvisational street theater. No way. Come on, man. Yeah. You must be like a real Jekyll and Hyde, kind of. I mean, you must be able to tap into a reservoir of... Like a lot of people wear that on their sleeves. You don't. How did Mary describe you? Well, he's soft-spoken and understated. But confident, yes. A quiet confidence. I think insouciance. A kind of...

You sure there weren't other adjectives? There were. There were. It started as a performer. I was much more extroverted then, actually. And while I was working at Disney World, I was writing a musical then, the first musical, which was bad. But I met a guy there who was a performer at Disney as well, and he was writing a musical for Rollins College, and his name is Kevin McCollum.

Kevin and I moved out to California at the same time. We were both at USC together. Kevin was in my student films. He was also a performer, so he performed on all my demos for the musicals I was writing at Disney. Because that's how I got the job at Disney, was writing a musical. I wrote an animated spec musical. What was that called? It was called Once Upon a Bayou.

Oh, nice.

And I was there for James and the Giant Peach. And he said, why don't you come see this new musical that I'm about to mount? And it's in tech. You and Wayne come sit in. So we went and it was Rent. And we were sitting there. I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. It's rock and like this is. And so at that tech, we were like, you know, Wayne and I, we have this idea for a musical. And he said, hey, the door's open. Pitch, come pitch. Let me know what it is.

That was 96. We pitched it to him in 2010. Oh, my God. And part of that is because, like, after James, like I said, I went into Chicken Run. And then Wayne was a songwriter. His career started taking off, and he started producing records. So he was writing for Amy Grant, but then he was producing Amy's records, and then...

for Faith Hill and he produced a Garth Brooks. He produced the Chris Gaines. Oh, really? The Garth Brooks, Chris Gaines record. And then he... I didn't know.

Then he was working with Little Big Town. But the way it would work is he'd get a record and be like, this is probably going to take me a year. It's like, oh, okay, well, we'll pick it up in a year. Then he'd call me, I'm done with the record. It's like, oh, I just took this animated movie. It's like, how long is that going to take you? Three years. Okay, well. Hope I'm alive to see it. But we'd get together at Christmas, Thanksgiving. Hey, I had an idea for that Shakespeare musical, as we kept calling it. We'd play a tune and

But finally, it was like, hey, if we're ever going to do this, we have to really set, we got to put time on the schedule and like really buckle down and do it. And so I called Kevin and I said, what do you need? Do you need a whole script? Do you need all the songs? He's like, no, Avenue Q, which he also produced, was three songs and an idea. And then we just developed it. So wait a minute, you sell a musical in the room. You have to write three songs and then just... At this point, we had songs, but we picked five songs.

that we thought would pitch well, and we had the story, basically, the basic story. So give me the basics. I mean, as I understand it, I feel so bad because I walked by the theater. Was it the St. James? It was the St. James. It's a weird amalgam, a spamalot. It's basically Shakespeare, and there are a couple of brothers who are playwrights, and they're pissed off and upstaged by this. Two brothers in the shadow of Shakespeare who is like a rock star, and they can't catch a break. Mm-hmm.

Nick and Nigel Bottom. All the characters in the play. There's a subplot that Shakespeare steals everything. So Nick Bottom is obviously from Midsummer Night's Dream, and he has an acting troupe. And all the members of the acting troupe, there's Peter Quince and Francis Fluth, and so they're all the mechanicals from Midsummer Night's Dream. So Nick is desperate, so he goes to a soothsayer.

which is Nostradamus, but it's not the Nostradamus. It's his nephew, Thomas. Thomas Nostradamus. Thomas Nostradamus, I promise. That's awful. Okay, right. And he says, I want you to look into the future and predict what the next big thing in theater will be. And Nostradamus says, musicals. And he's like, what are musicals? He says, it's a play where the dialogue stops and the plot is conveyed through song. And Nick says, wait, so people are just...

doing a play and then they just start singing. He goes, yeah. And he goes, well, that's the stupidest thing that I have ever heard. And then he proceeds to sing a song. Called the stupidest thing I ever heard. They sing a musical, which is this massive production number. So Nick sets out to write a musical, but he doesn't know what a musical should be about. So he goes to Nostradamus a second time and says, I need to know what Shakespeare's greatest play will be.

And Nostradamus, who we described as like a satellite in a rainstorm, some of the stuff comes in, looks in the future and he says, it'll be the greatest play ever written, and it's called Omelette. So he's writing a musical called Omelette. And that's how you got Chicken Run. And it's bits of Hamlet and other things mixed with musical theater.

So we pitched that to Kevin, and God bless him. Kevin is a very bold gambler of a producer, and he said six words that changed our life forever, which was, I think you've got something here. And introduced us to Casey Nicholaw, who had just directed Book of Mormon, and we developed it with Casey, who was absolutely essential in helping us get it to where it was.

And yeah, we were supposed to open in Seattle, but we did a lab and it went really well. And we had this amazing cast with Brian Darcy James and Christian Borle and Brad Oscar. Didn't Christian win an Emmy? Christian won a Tony. A Tony? Well, whatever those things are. They give Tonys in theater. I see. But we can cut that. No, we'll put it in the open. Yeah, so that ran for two years on Broadway and is still going. In fact, we're doing a concert of it in London in August. And...

Trying to get it up over there, but I just saw it last weekend at UCLA. And it holds up? Yeah, it does. It does. And it was a very, very joyous hard work. The hardest thing I've ever done. What's more satisfying? Sitting in an audience when people are laughing at...

a squirrel gag in animation or sitting in an audience when people are hopefully not singing out loud, but humming along with something you've written. Yeah, it's great. I mean, we've worked on this long and hard and it was an original, so we didn't know how it ended even in previews. You know, we're writing every day, but to go home and to write a scene, it's crazy. Write a scene one night, come in the next day, because the way it worked is the actors showed up when you're in previews.

When you're rehearsing, it's kind of more fluid. But now we have costumes, sets, but you're in previews. They meet for notes at noon and then start at 1 and go from 1 till 5 o'clock rehearsing new stuff, break for dinner, come back and do a show.

So we would meet with the director at 10, go over notes. So we would come in with a new scene, then he would pass out pages at noon. They'd read the scene. They have all sorts of other stuff that they're doing during the day, choreography, whatever. But sometimes it would literally be like 4.45, and they're going to break at 5, and Brian and Heidi, new scene for Nick and Bea. What do you think? Run it two times? Yeah, we'll put that in tonight.

7 o'clock, you're watching it. But with an orchestra? Oh, yeah. Well, that was a scene. Right. So if you're rewriting music, that takes a week to implement because you've got to go. And what's crazy is if you're re-choreographing a number, they're rehearsing the new choreography from 1 o'clock but doing the old at night. So it's a lot to keep straight. But, yes, sitting there and it's like, all right, we wrote five new jokes for this and let's, you know, waiting. Laughter, it's like, yes, or crickets, it's like, ah, back to the drawing board.

Every night, because previews were four weeks. So every night. So you spend a month tweaking. Oh, yeah. And then rewriting and cutting songs. Oh, man. Yeah, writing new songs. I know about Killing Your Darlings.

Hard enough with a chapter in a book or certainly a scene in a movie, but a song. How many songs did you have to write? First of all, how many songs are in Something Rotten? And how many songs did you write for Something Rotten? There's 18 in it and we wrote 54. Wow. Oh, I know how hard it is to write a song.

I don't know how hard it is to walk it behind the barn and shoot it. I mean, sometimes there's a song at the end of Act 2 called Make an Omelet. And that one we wrote nine different versions of. So there are variations of it. But we kept trying to get this right. And Casey kept going, that's not it. That's not it. And really, we had written the eighth one. I remember Wayne saying to me, I don't have another one in me.

and uh we showed it to casey he was like i'm sorry i still don't think that's it it was that was a dark day and then there was a ballad that was one of the first songs written one of the first ones we pitched to kevin that was in the show all the way through everybody loved it and three weeks into previews we cut it why as wayne would say everyone loved the song but the show didn't it just didn't work in the show it's a gorgeous song

So it's like, maybe we'll use it somewhere else. What's the song called? It's called Lovely Love. And it exists on YouTube for people because it was in the show for three weeks. Would it work as a theme song for like a podcast? Maybe. And then Wayne and I, we did it. There's a place in New York called 54 Below, you know, which is the supper club below Studio 54. So we did a concert of all the cut songs online.

from Something Rotten. That's great. And me and him and with a lot of the cast members and doing songs that were cut. And the joke at the top of the show was we wrote so many songs for Something Rotten that we had to cut songs from an evening of cut songs.

Just to get this show down to length. So, yeah, it was a lot of work. A lot of work. Full disclosure, I was just Googling around the other day when Mary said you'd be kind enough to buzz in from London to stop by and drink some whiskey and have a chat. And I found a recording of you and your brother essentially explaining

I'm not sure to whom, I guess the viewer, but it sounded like there might have been somebody else in the room, but just explaining the process of writing the songs that are in the show. Right. And playing a few. You were on guitar for the most part. He was on keyboards. Yeah. Right? So I didn't imagine this. But I got to tell you, man, every single one of them

Every single one of them landed, and it made me want to hear more. Oh, thanks. No, I mean it. The opening number, Let's Have a Renaissance. Welcome to the Renaissance. Welcome to the Renaissance. Yeah, that's a catchy tune. It's great. Wayne, it's funny, because that was 2005. Wayne was at my house, and he was like, I had an idea for a song. And he sat down and just played, Welcome to the Renaissance. And it kind of has this Beatles kind of feel to it.

And I listened to it and I was like, oh, that's catchy. And in my head, I'm like, that doesn't sound like Sondheim. This is never going to work. But then walking around a few days, it's like, well, I can't get that damn thing out of my head. Yeah. And Wayne has a real gift for writing a catchy hook. He does. So I was like, yeah. And I remember sitting like we had written a song for Shakespeare that was called Words You've Never Heard because, you know, Shakespeare made up all these words. Yeah.

And that's at 54 Below, but it was this, you know, it kind of was a cabaret feeling kind of song, like a show tune. But we always pitched it like when Shakespeare's like a rock star, you know, and we thought, well, what if Shakespeare's music has more of a rock twinge to it? So Wayne was like, had this idea. It's like, what if we had a song and it was like, dun, dun, dun, dun.

And it was, we had this idea that Shakespeare would be in the park, Shakespeare in the park, doing a recitation to, but it's done like a rock song. And the song is called Willpower. But we had this, and he's out there and it's like to the crowd, but basically doing his hits. But he's like, here's a little one that's been very good to me. Let's see if you know it. And then he's like, shall I compare thee? And then the audience goes, to a summer's day. Yeah, thou art.

And, uh, 18. That's right. And then he goes, Oh, here's another one. You know, it's a, now is the winter of discontent, you know, and everybody's like singing along. And that idea was sort of like, what if he was this? And there was a lot of us going, yeah, why not? And there's a song called God, I hate Shakespeare. And again, this is Wayne was like, you know, Nick is singing a song called God, I hate Shakespeare. And, uh,

And then we were like, where can we go with this? And I just sort of spat out, like, what if the chorus sings, you know, because they all love him. And the lyric was, don't be a penis, the man is a genius. And I was like, can we do that? And it's like, why not? There was just a lot of, why not? Let's try it. You know, throw this spaghetti against the fridge and see if it sticks. Now I understand. Now I get it. The link between animation and musicals.

I get it. Why not have James drive to New York on the floor of the ocean? Why not just do that? Yeah, absurd ideas. What rhymes with penis? Yeah. What rhymes with musical?

Wayne wrote one of my favorite lyrics because Welcome to the Renaissance gets bookended because at the end they get sent to America. They get banished or banished from England and it's like the judge says take your so-called musicals with you so they go to America and at the end we sing Welcome to America. The first one it's Welcome to the Renaissance and at the end it's Welcome to America where nothing rhymes with America. And that was like

And again, that was Wayne like, oh, yeah, that's very funny. And so there was a lot of that. When you're with a group, you know, between me, Wayne, and John, we are first and foremost writing, can we crack each other up? Yeah. And if we all laugh, well, maybe we have something. Right. And then Casey, who's a very funny guy. So if we do something and he laughs. One thing I love about musicals is it's a very small group.

creative group. You don't get that in Hollywood so much. There's a lot of cooks. Everybody's a potter. A lot of people need to touch it. Yeah, yeah. And you know that old expression, you know, a horse by committee is a camel. And I've been on a lot of camels. So have I.

My first one was called Worst Case Scenario. Like all great camels, this one lived up to its name. It was TBS and a production company run by a guy called Craig Peligian wanted to bring the worst case scenario survival guide to life. And the network wanted...

and like cartoonish craziness and and Craig wanted high stakes and Just testosterone and danger and I not that anybody cared, but I wanted like a real Something rooted in practical advice that could really save your life because the manual had saved a lot of lives And if we could bring it to life in a fun way, right and nobody got their way, but everybody won a little and

And the bouillabaisse that went on the screen, the hot mess that that show was, was such a beautiful camel. The tragedy of it is that no one learned anything. No one learns from the camel in this town. We just keep making them. No. I have this theory. Do it. Do tell. Get ready, Chuck. You bet. So I've been writing for 36 years professionally. Mm-hmm.

And everybody always says, oh, does it get easier? Like I've written Peanuts is my 60 second screenplay that I've written.

So, and everybody's like, oh, you've written that many. Does it get easier? No. Frustratingly, it gets harder. Mm-hmm. Way harder because first of all, it's like, oh, what have I not done yet? Simpsons did it. Everything is just like, and then my sort of, my shit detector meter is more sensitive. Mm-hmm. Always in the red. So I'm like, well, I may have written that 25 years ago, but now I know, no, that's not going to cut it, you know?

So, but here's the only couple of things that I have learned to be absolutes. Everyone says they can read rough or view something rough. Yeah. And they can't. They can't. Everybody's a rough cut lady. So when you put it down, if it's on paper or in an edit or something, people are like, that's what it is. And that's the best you've got. And it's like, if it's a process and you're not really with somebody who understands the process.

then don't write it down. It's better to hold onto it for two weeks. So I used to be like deadlines, you know, I would really hit deadlines. Nope. If it's not ready, hold onto it because I can promise you this. Nobody reads something and goes, it's not great, but brownie points for getting it in on time. I've never had that happen.

But if you turn something in three weeks late and it's great, no one says, but it was late. Yeah, sorry, we can't do it. So take your shingles. Now, it's different, like...

I wrote the movie Spiderwick Chronicles. And if anybody watches that movie, there's a house and there's an attic and I'm in that attic writing what's being shot the next day. That's real. That's not messing around. That's not, it's not ready. I'll turn it in next week. Cause it's like, it costs $500,000 a day to shoot this. So they don't shoot something tomorrow. Those are real deadlines. That's fine. That's a different thing. But this development thing, it takes as long as it takes. Yeah. The only other thing I've learned is, uh,

For me, everything I've done that's good, that I can deem to be good, there were three to five people at the epicenter. Three is a good number. Two is dangerous because there's an impasse. You need a tiebreaker. And more than five starts to be that committee. We're a Congress at that point. Yeah. Oh, thank you, John Adams, from the opening of 1776. Whoa, he knows his musicals. My God, I have had this Congress.

Chicken Run was primarily me, Nick, and Pete, me and the two directors, Jeffrey, and then a couple of people from DreamWorks. But that was the... But four. That was the core. Yeah. Over the Hedge was me and Tim and Bonnie and Jeffrey. Something Rotten was me, Wayne, John, Casey, and Kevin. And those are probably the three... The three things you're the most proud of, and they all reflect...

a core, a small but loyal core. I'm struck most though, I mean, since we're really talking about, I guess, work ethic in a way, but like the idea that you're 60 second was actually harder than you're second. Does that translate to woodworking? Does it translate to teaching? Does it, like anybody who's really good at what they do,

Do you think they should be encountering that same thing? That fact that it's not actually getting easier at all? Well, I think this is, you know, the whole 10,000 hours to be an expert thing. Like, here's what I love. Like when I really got into woodworking, the initial curve is like that, you know, and it's like, oh, I'm really, and then you kind of get to that little level where it's like, it feels like a plateau and maybe you're moving up, but it's way slower than

That's why I think pickleball is so popular. Pickleball is way easier to enjoy a good game for someone with not a whole lot of skill more than tennis. Tennis is way harder. If you're a novice at tennis, it's much more frustrating. But I've seen people get out and play pickleball, and you can really enjoy yourself. And so the learning curve on pickleball is like whoosh. And then you start to get into the finesse, and then you start to move up a different notch. Cool.

Early on, I used to write 20 pages a day when I was in film school as a writer. And it was just flow out of me and it was genius, you know. It was really not. I just didn't know any better. Now, five pages a day is really usually my target. And it's hard to get five good pages. It takes longer because I just have more detection material in the tool bag of that's not it.

I just know. I know what it feels like. I know what it looks like. And I know that's not it. Here's the only other thing I've learned, the third thing. Anxiety and panic does not make the product any better. Ever. So I've learned to not freak out. And to quote Hitchhikers, another movie I worked on, don't panic. It didn't come today. I still sat my ass down in a chair with my fingers on a keyboard and typed,

because you must do that. It doesn't write itself. You must attend. Yes. Yes. You must sit down and type every day. I think a lot of writers or people in the creative, any field, but particularly I'll just talk about writing because it's what I know. I've run into so many writers who are like, hey, weren't you working on that script? Yeah, but I hit a snag. So I'm just taking three weeks to think about it. And it's like they're waiting for,

for inspiration. And my experience is that inspiration comes while typing. It may come in one minute of that day, and it may come at the 11th, 58th minute before midnight, but those other 11 hours or whatever are worth it before that. But you have to

Work. It's work. It's a craft. So most people think, I'm just going to sit and sort of open a vein and it's going to flow out of me. And it doesn't. I'm always fascinated by when you go see a story, most people just don't know how the sausage is made, don't see the wheels turning behind that story. You just go watch something and you go, yeah, that would happen. And it's like, no, you don't understand. This was all constructed. You are being manipulated. Right.

And this is all constructed with rules, rules of structure and things that work through hundreds of years of storytelling of just like there are certain things that if you put them in this order, they work.

Now you could cross out storytelling and write in carpentry. Sure. And now your life makes perfect sense because the business of building that bookshelf is subject to the exact same rules you just described. It's not going to build itself. You know, pick up the hammer. You've got to pick up the tools. You've got to be in the workshop. When we're talking, I think we both probably start most of our sentences with no clear idea of how they're going to end.

Do you do the same thing when you write? Oh, yeah. Tap, tap, tap, and you're not sure how that line's going to end. I usually outline. The creative process, right, is always that left brain, right brain struggle because there's a lot of logic involved and there's a lot of left brain trying to structure. All of that stuff doesn't feel necessarily creative. Mm-hmm.

But it's super important that everything exists within a workable structure, you know, and is held together by a structure. Which, again, to bring back the woodworking... Nails, hinges, wood glue. Framing. Right, right. So...

You can't have a house that's all molding and paint and decorative trim, right? Underneath that is the structure that is holding this thing up so that the decorative trim and stuff, you know, can live and sit somewhere. On an armature. On an armature. That is very much what writing is. And so for me, outlining is the structure part and is the framing. So whenever I turn in a first draft...

especially if I'm going to be on a project for a while. The notes I'm listening to is anyone attacking the structure. The other thing you said that struck me is this idea that you know it when it's right, and you're putting in the work, and you're doing your best and whatever, and what's coming out. It's just you're very dispassionate about this because you've learned after 62 films you're going to have to go through a bunch of misses. And yet, when you're writing your song and you get to take eight songs

Poor Wayne can't take anymore. Okay, he's had enough. And the other guy, who was it, Kyle? John. John, right. John's just gone, no, sorry. Casey, Casey, Casey. Right. So, you know, this is funny. Are you your strictest judge? Or is there something else, someone else? Like, is it harder, is it easier for you to say, no, this isn't good enough. This is not up to my standards. As opposed to having somebody say to you, sorry, no.

Might be up to yours, but it's not up to mine. Well, I think... Because that song you guys were putting in was up to yours. You liked it. Yeah, at that point, we didn't know. We were sort of like just throwing darts in the dark, basically. But no, I think what it is, like, I always say I like to collaborate. I like working with collaborators. And the reason is because I say I need someone to save me from the worst version of myself. I need someone there going, I don't think that's the best it can be. And mostly because...

I'll do anything to be done. I'll do anything to feel like, let me walk away from this and call it done. Poke it with a fork and just tell me it's done. But to have somebody that you trust to say...

I don't think it's done. It can be better. And you will get there. This isn't, I remember one time, sorry, I was working with, so Courtney Valenti, who is the president of Warner Brothers when I was making Smallfoot, now she runs Amazon, the best executive in the business, I think. And I can get very defensive about my work. So she came in and she was going, and this just isn't, you know, and I, it isn't working or something. And I overreacted.

and got very defensive. And she went, what's up? I said, I'm sorry, but when you say this doesn't work, what I hear is you suck. And you will never work again. I have to work through that first because we all feel like the imposter syndrome. So we all feel like someone's going to go, hey, you don't really know what you're doing. You're right, everyone, here's the money back. But most of us feel like

We are one idea away from our last gig, right? Yeah, like it's a finite well, and you just used up another one. Yeah, I'm like, are you only as good as the last thing that you did? And you're constantly on every job going, do I still have it? And when you mentioned the well, I mean, that one, Wayne was like...

The well is dry, man. I am just dipping into everything I've got. And I don't know what I'm reaching for. It was a very dark day. Very.

Very. I haven't been there exactly, but I think in relative terms, I understand. You know, you mentioned the 10,000 hour rule. I guess it was Gladwell who floated that. Yeah. He also talked about the artistic paradigms, why genius comes in so many different directions. And he uses Cezanne and Picasso.

two of the arguably, you know, the top of the top, right? Sure. The greatest. Picasso was notorious for being done and finished at the same time. Like when he finished, it was, that was it. He sold it. He gave it away. He hung it. New canvas. Cezanne never finished. He just picked at it. He just, he would never stop. There are stories of him

Going to people's homes who had purchased his paintings and coming back in with pain. It's like no. Yeah. Yeah. No, right It's like the author going in the bookstore. Just no no not that one. So which are you I get it Here's what's weird. So theater it truly is never done. The second musical I wrote was mrs Doubtfire, which is running in London now It's on tour

And, you know, we opened in Seattle. Then we opened March. We started previews March 8th, 2020 on Broadway. Oh, man. I don't know if you read the news. But something happened on March 12th. Sorry, I've been in a coma for three years. What happened? So we shut down. We reopened. Half the cast got COVID. We shut down. We opened again. Didn't work out. COVID was, you know, we opened in Manchester, England. We opened in London. We went on tour again.

So six openings of this show. Every single time the show was different. Every time. Because, oh, we can tweak that. So the Cezanne thing on a musical, when we take something rotten to London, we will rework it. Now the movies are locked.

But every single time I sit down and watch a movie I worked on, there's not a single time that I'm like, I wish I could have, I would do that different. I would do that different. I would do that different. Yeah. Every time. And then George Lucas, of course, went back into Star Wars. Yeah. And went, oh, I know, I'll fiddle with it. And the fans went, are you insane? Yeah. You know, leave it alone. But there's that idea of, oh, I have technology now that I didn't have or, you know, that I can go in and do the things that I didn't want to do. Yeah.

And that's why that small core around you is so important, right? Because sometimes you need somebody to tell you, that ain't right. I know there's a better take in you. And sometimes you need somebody to pry you away from it and just say, no, you've got it. It's good. It's good. Or the other, here's the kiss of death in a creative process. And I know you know my buddy, Chris Poche, who we wrote together. He's been on this podcast. Yes.

We used to always talk about the worst comment you can get about your work is, it's fine. Or for someone to go, it's fine. Because it's fine is not what we're aiming for. C plus, baby. It's Salieri's lament. Yeah. We are the kings of mediocrity. And you need someone around to go, fine is not good enough. And there are so many things that I go see that

I work with Stephen Schwartz does this workshop through ASCAP, a music theater workshop. And he invites panelists to come watch new people presenting musicals. And so I've been on this panel a few times. In fact, I'm heading up the book writing section of this, this year and of writing the libretto. And, um,

You just sit up there and you watch and it's like somebody here wasn't pushing to go. This is pretty good. Somebody settled. Somebody settled. And settling is really bad. And that's why your 60 second screenplay wasn't any easier. No, because I've, I mean, and again, I'm surrounded by people and smart people, people that I've worked with. The director's great.

And Bonnie's really good. And we have a core group. And people who I trust that when they go, I'm not sure this is where it needs to be yet. I'm really happy to get in and go in and try to make it better. I'm appreciative that there's somebody there going, I think there's a better one in you. Unless on any particular day, it sounded like you suck. I always go to I suck. I always go there. Honestly, I mean, we joke about it, but when there is someone with you

Because most writers live in fear of being replaced. And if you're in that place of my job is on the line, that's a tough place to create from. Well, what's great in theater is they can't replace you because you own it. In Hollywood, you're expendable. But if you're with someone that's going, no, no, no, we're not replacing you. We just need it to be better. You suddenly relax a little bit and you go, great, then I'll do what it takes to

You know, I'll keep working it. It's a cliche, but writing truly is rewriting. If you really think it's just going to fall out of you golden, you know, you're kind of fooling yourself. Because I think what people don't understand is how much work it is. It is work. My mom wrote every day for 60 years. Every day. She was convinced it was what she was put on the earth to do.

She got published for the first time at 80, and she's written three best-selling books. She's 86 now. She's working on her fourth. You know, for me, I talk about work ethic a bunch, foundation, dirty jobs, and so forth. And my dad is often in there, and my granddad was a woodworker as well. But it really is my mom because those guys, because they are tradespeople,

And because you're right, anybody can be a tradesman. It's a state of mind. They always knew how they were doing. They always had a group of people around them saying, yeah, good, or not great, or you're done, or you're not quite done. Or more importantly, they could look at the work itself and judge it and then move on. But to have no feedback, no positive feedback,

All my mom had was my dad who would read her stories out loud like the town crier, you know, at the local Denny's after church, you know, to strangers. Yeah. Which, lovely. Lovely love. Loves it. Yeah. We know your outro. Good luck getting the rights. Hey, Mayor. You know what to do. Oh, she's over there making a contract. She's making a contract. Three greatest moments in a theater in your life.

That I've seen? Yep, as an audience member. I mean, you mentioned Sondheim, you mentioned Schwartz, you mentioned Oklahoma. Seeing Mandy Patinkin in Sunday in the Park with George made me stop acting. That performance was just like, I mean, I love that musical, but his commitment and level of passion and how good it was

I was watching that, I was like, "Oh, that's what it takes. I don't have that." But that was transformative. Yeah. I'm trying to think. I mean, early, early impressions of seeing Chorus Line and just like, "Man, this is great." I just saw Days of Wine and Roses in New York with Brian and Kelly O'Hara. And those are two performances sort of for the ages. These were fantastic, really impactful.

Man, I'm trying to think. What did the Book of Mormon do for you? Set a new bar. Right. I went and saw a third preview. I was like, oh my God, this is fantastic. And I stepped out at intermission and sent a text to Wayne and John. And I said, because we were writing something rotten, and I said, the bar has been set. Wow. And it's high. Yeah.

That was fantastic. And I was like, man, that was such a good act one. Are they going to top it? And they did. They did. And you know something? Just because she's sitting here, I'm parsimonious. I'll pay for something great. But those tickets were nuts. And Mary wanted to see Book of Mormon, and we were in New York, and she just bought them. She just was like, whatever. It's the most expensive musical I've ever seen.

And we were jammed in those little seats that were too small, and we were a little off the side. It didn't matter. That thing was so good. It just was stunning. It was stunningly good. It was fantastic. Hamilton? Yeah, I saw Hamilton first at the public, and I was like, there's a lot of words coming at me, and I don't know what's going on. But it was pretty overwhelming. And then once I went home and sort of learned it...

It's really an amazing piece of work and just so beautifully staged and realized and directed. I don't begrudge. Hang on just a second. Big texts coming in. You did it, man. I actually kept somebody on so long they missed a conference call. I hope something doesn't not get greenlit as a result of that. It's a...

We're pitching a... Yeah, we're about to go out and pitch something to studios. But anyway. Well, go sell the idea. And good luck with Charlie Brown. Oh, it's going to be... I can't wait to see it. It's really turning out nice. It's going to be great. It's going to be terrific. You were awesome. This was great. This was fantastic. Thanks for having me.

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