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In the request the flight ship podcast of wondering whether are you wearing the same drag this last week. I'm a friend they like, and I don't know the answer to that question. Dog trans is here .

are your friend.

You just know the answer to that question. I I put my wallet in the same pocket as a wait. I think I did that last week.

That's fine.

but it's a radio show. This is the problem .

with video video.

David here. hi. I um for many months just wore great t shirts on every episode of our test, and I legitimately do on many great t shirts.

I like the old mark archerd who just opens a closet. I have like fifty identical things and that everywhere, everyday. Dude, netty, he was, I envy you this new thing. He's doing wrong idea. I go back to the great shirt .

work yeah every day he's got to pick a new lattin phrase yeah.

it's a lot.

It's just going be like.

i'm tired the very end he's like, I ve been defeated ah yeah by the way also the flesh of advice of our game cube, the hino cube next to my friend gay, who really thought I was going to send that packed to him.

H. D, now, multi podcast, multi platform, potentially award winning podcast to Jason.

Yeah, gave you because I read this on the studio and we put our game cube in the corner and then all the rocks, me, the protester in here, and they don't take IT down.

So now every podcast is sponsored behind. Again, it's fine. I'm sure making torpedo .

and super don't have thoughts. You have that at all. Anyway, please watch the rest the shows and boxing, your pocket network of which the instruments of election there is a lot what's not edit that out, but if you work of ox, just pretend you edit that out, right? Uh, there's a lot to talk about this way, a lot some controversies.

I think we might break a little news on the show, A I announcements, funding deals and then we got a lighting round which remains unsponsored. That's your full because some of you control ad budgets. And then there's someone here at this company should talk to who is not me that you should spend that money on. That's how works here.

And or you can then show us.

can you bend more, alex directly then?

Mo.

i'll take IT see if you can cope. The number of sneaky add is also just have to show, right? So i've got to run down here.

We got to talk about copilot. Ah there's opening eyes. Big funding round gave a newson veto to major A S if you go on the run down, David has written both letters. But first David has a question. David has a question.

David was a question. So youtube were displayed ards. I would say I am not a displayed.

So I I have a thing that I would like to present you with that surprised me greatly. And I would like you to react and tell me how to feel. So I ve bought a new iphone.

I bought A A blue iphone sixteen. I decided that going pro, I was going to go regular because it's like a little later. The blue is .

one this year. This the best looking .

phone at apple has made in a very long time. I think this color is is great .

in moving the cameras really did a .

thing there did it's really nice. Uh, so I bought this one brought at home. Uh, and I think on the same day that I bought IT uh, federal of a tg at max stories know a thing about how he had gone from a pro to a regular iphone IT turns out this is like a bit of a trend, especially because the colors there are a lot of people i've heard from like the the nerd pro users who have gone to uh, the iphone sixteen Michael Fisher, mister mobile is one of them.

He he made a great video about IT, I would say, in in shocking numbers, both to me and to all of those other people. The overwhelming response from people is what? How are you going to live without promotion? What's wrong with you? Do not have eyes how the refresh rates, how do you survive? And if i'm going to be completely honest with you, I do have not noticed.

I I could not tell you the difference in my phone experience between one of the other, but I am also not a display iner. I have a forty two inch junk y TCL T V behind me that will test that. So I bring to you the display nerds, uh, how big a deal is IT that I lost promotion. And all the people who are worried about losing promotion on the iphone, should they be worried?

If you're worried about losing promotion, then yeah, you should be worried because you care that much. But ninety percent of people aren't gna notice the difference. We see this all the time with refrigerate stuff. Like once you hit thirty, most people aren't gona notice, but then some people aren't like nearly will definitely notice. I can see him noticing right now thinking like no cry is wrong.

I think cray's is moving IT too low or refresh ate right now. The I R L see IT up double. Sorry.

sorry, sorry. I just got, I don't know how to do fast refresh rate.

You know, my feeling on this is the the things you can see, you can see in the things you can see, you can't. And that is is just like pretty much that simple. And I think a lot of people are very sensitive to motion, like more than we, more than we suspect.

So if you are the sort of person who can see tearing on a screen or the jolly effect, you're onna really see IT. You're just gonna see IT. And a lot of people can't.

The jelly y effect is when the screen controller, the electronics controlled, the screen is on one side. And so that side refreshes a little bit faster or on the right side. And you can see the thing just work as you scroll.

I can see that every time, every time it's a curse. Ninety nine percent of people, I don't think, can see IT. And you shouldn't ry about IT. And that's why most screens have that effect because you can minimize point where doesn't bother most people.

So you're a hundred percent confident that if I handed you two identical devices, one of one hundred and twenty hours and one sixty, you can mean they tell the difference.

I could. So promotion makes the heart because it's always changing, right? So I don't know um I think on if I started scrolling them I could but if there were playing videos and the promotion, one has fAllen back to twenty four and the other one is interpolating frames to get to sixty no on a phone no um but on screw I can Price IT OK I doesn't bother me.

I am actually not that sensitive to IT. But I what I am sensitive to is like um all those emotion artifacts, like I 的 the weird screen tearing and all let's have promotion minimizes。 So yeah you know there's like videos on there like people that we are not up to puts the frame counter in front of the display and it's only eight. It's like you guys are all .

crazy like you are I think you are though if you can see IT, then you can see IT. And yeah you should probably spend a little more money. And if you can see IT enjoy having cheaper devices.

Yeah like a lot of people uh, own toyota and then some people have lexi's. And if you take a real hard look at the cheapest like this and the most expensive toyota, they are the same, you know? Yes, the finest edge of difference there, right? And naturally, I think for a lot of people, promotion represents, except for the people who are like, no, I can see IT.

I see. okay. So it's a little bit like like I always tell people, one of the dome's financial decisions you can make is developing a taste for a good wine.

Because if you think six dollar wine tastes good, you're gona live such a happy, easy, simple life of wine. And then when you discover that actually sixty and six hundred dollar one taste much Better, just group. So like, don't ever learn that, just enjoy, enjoy your crappy at six doors one and life is fine.

You know you can just smoke cigarettes and then then they will all taste the same and you're fine.

I don't know, I think this episode no further comment, mom, um I don't mean I do. You should have some taste. I recommend end finding the things that make you happy to many money in those things. But I chasing a if you can't see IT in motion is one of those things where I think people consider I can, I can teach you to see motion. I can teach you to see motion smoothing, and then I will .

have ruined your life. Yes, agreed. right?

yes. And so that's like one of OK. Now, I can see you, or if you have a roof, T V, the're gona lie you and not let you turn that off, which is still an ongoing scandal.

Um but like the the refresher ate of the screen is like I do see you that I I think it's the same with them. There's like ultra crazy high refreshes on monitors now. And I asked him warm like, does anyone even can you see this? And he was just very conflict PC gand. And okay.

only some.

It's like not right. It's counter strike, right?

And it's the people who play the witchy is twitch games yeah and they can see IT because they're like, yeah that one million d means I can get a head shot or not yeah one else because none of us are trading our brains .

that way yeah if if if the refrigerators a different treating you and a rewarding career any sports yeah got .

last year um it's not for me.

I don't know. Yeah I I think the promotion one of the the thing that you will actually see and you have a kid and I would just in its blue and it's a beautiful phone and it's quite fine the camera on the problem is substantially Better ah with the main camera is substantially Better on the grow. But IT doesn't matter because they all just kind of HDR to hell him back and fine, I spend your money in a good camera in the regular iphone sixteen terrific.

Yeah, that's kind of where i'm landing. I'm like I bought this phone uh, at the beginning of a year in which I am going to try to do fewer things on my phone a including like chase my child around so i'm going to figure new ways to take pictures.

flip cam and like a beautiful reo camera like for steals and I can't wait for you .

to .

have just a full dad utility bill.

low Fanny pat.

Just like, you know, like the dominant in technology is convergence to the phone. David has the divergence built just like sixty gadgets.

except that is definitely going to be like a dire bag just full of gadgets. Do you will be like to have any snacks and there be like, no, just cameras.

Uh, alright, are a good question. Thank you. I would say that was a lot of people, the promotion boys, if there are there are such a thing, is very able repression ate fan boys. You're out there. We appreciate.

Yeah oh, for sure. I think it's sort ally valid. And I was just the thing that surprise me most was that the overwhelming feedback I got and others got was not what are you going to do without the camera? What are you going to do about the extreme size? What are going to do about the bigger battery IT was promotion like overwhelmingly that was the future.

People said they couldn't live without. And I was surprised you have a lot, counter strike players said.

And again, god bless all of you.

But I also to say to people who can see, you can really see IT, and I think there's a more people who can .

see IT than you think. I T, I totally do. I just not .

one of those people. It's like, Michael, they had a lot of incense this week. Would you call a new version of copilot? Not really.

I so it's a new vibe for copilot. It's like, yeah, IT feels different in a way that I actually think is really important. Like copilot was headed down this road of being just a tool inside of office that was like very businesses and focused on helping you rave emails and get stuff done. And they made this shift out of something that like looks and feels and wants to be very different, uh, which is different from microsoft, sort of odd strategically given like what the company is and what they have been pushing towards. But I think it's really different.

I do. So I wanted tell what what is different and new about actual copilot, the microsoft product that has been redesigned in the quote on quote bot inflection by hiring all of its employees in the co and making the CEO inflection the C O of microsoft. I but that is sure .

about the company.

Yeah this like one guys still work in there like the the the lina mopo that's A I call IT down and you .

just like don't buy the domain name. You're a good we did .

all that and know this new product was a lot of completion. We should come to that. I I want to take one step back, David.

You and I have been talking about this moment in A I kind of probably in its feels like every company has realized the models are whatever they are, all kinds the same. And we have to build the set of products and all of the products are the same idea. We're going to go do stuff for a and IT.

This feels like part of that is that I know you have taught to bunch people. You've seen a bunch of these products now. Is that just the shape of like we have to build a product and only product anybody can think of is an agent basically?

Yeah, I think we're at a moment now where, uh, these things have to be more than just novelties. And the quickest way to get there is to make them actually live out the idea of being assistance, right? We're seeing like rabbit, which did a lot of work to actually like popularize this idea.

Earlier this year, with the large action model thing launched the large action model a beta of a beta of a beta of a thing， pretending to be the large act, like we can look at that if you want to. But, uh but the idea is essentially like these are things that can go accomplish things on your behalf, right? And those things are not just write an email or make a deck for you.

Like the thing everyone always talks about is travel. Everyone like, I should say, I need to be in seventh cisco next tuesday to thursday. And IT IT should in fury be able to go like, book my flies and get my hotel and put together in a literary for me and tell me fun stuff to do on there and restaurants I should try and like that's what everyone building towards.

It's that and it's a multi model search. Those are the two things, uh, and multi model search, I think is gonna come faster because it's a lot more achievable with the technology that we but like everyone is pushing on this idea that instead of like opening a bunch of tabs or doing a bunch of goal searches or flipping between a bunch of apps, you should just be able to ask I to do something. And IT will go to you all of those things for you.

yes. But like we've travel specifically, we already have trip adviser and stuff, which will always put me in buttle instead of seattle. You don't want to be in seattle proper, you want to be in buffle.

And I don't like I just struggle to try these things every single time because buffle, and that's what I think of every time one of these things, like we're going to all of these steps for this really finanical thing for you, and we're going to just magically know how to do IT. And i'll be like, but you've never done that before in the history of computers. I have never successfully IT happened and said, I get off.

have a lot to say. What does two things? One, I interviewed rabbit seo justice u for a decoder that's going on monday. I don't want to give too much away about the conversation except to say that was a bananas um in the thing you're describing, which is but I can have the computer to use the computer for me and then that's a little brittle yeah that's that's rabbit. That's that's the thing they want to build that debate the a of debate, literally rabbit is best thought of as a vnc client, right? The rabbit device is A V, N, C client to a chrome brother and in the sky.

and I can just open chrome.

So this is the chinese. Yes, I want to fail too much of that. But I spent a lot timing.

Like what is IT? What is the thing that you've made in? The answer is of the ency client to a cross on the sky that A I is running for you, which is fascinating, but that's pretty brittle yeah.

And I think that's all of these agents or the answer is we built an incredible enabling technology that lets us see and interact with the world in sort of natural language. Or today it's point multi model in voice, in images. great.

So now we have this like interaction back and forth. What are we going to build with? This is like about like I invented blue truth, it's twenty dollars a month.

Like that's kind of where we are. Yeah AI chat pots. And now everyone has skipped all the way ahead to the final vision, which is you will talk to the computer and everything will happen exactly as you desire.

IT doesn't seem like any of the middle steps have been filled in and the vision is pretty the enabling technology. The L. M. Is still pretty brittle when I tried to to go use the computer for you. Yeah.

是 这 okay。 Doesn't seem like you guys have actually done the thing. I I see the vision, but also where the execution are my staying in buffle.

And the big question I is, is that just because they have to pay awfully investment or because there's nothing in the middle like general film? Very cool. Microsoft nounce.

Ed, the paint, microsoft paint is getting generated film. That's sick. That's awesome. Is that worth the money that we've invested? I like I don't know, probably not. But hey, there's an A I agent that you can talk to you that we'll go do things on your behalf and that will cost a lot of money. That seems I get to worth money.

Yeah well, and I think I think the middle step is actually the only thing that's interesting, right? The middle step is pointless if you think we're gna get to god level a in twenty twenty seven. Um I do not believe that is going to happen. And so I think all the interesting stuff is is in the middle and lake. It's very much on both sides.

There's the there's the underlying technology of at all, which is can basically can the the vnc get Better and more useful and more powerful? Or are we going to build like an A P I ecosystem of things so that data providers can pleg into each other and this becomes powerful over time? Like there are a bunch of ways this could go that are really interesting.

Like a delt airlines has lots of good reasons to want every A I service to be able to tap into all of its data because then I will book flex like there's a way in which these things can be put together that doesn't require magical AI, but the magical AI is also like definitely continuing to improve. But then the other question of like do I want to just say I need to be in sentences co. Next tuesday and everything just magically happens.

Is that the right outcome? I don't think so. I really don't. And I think the question is like, am I going to get to a point where I trust the A I. Such that I just roll up to the airport on tuesday and like, right, GPT, what do we got for me? Let's go.

Or is there like a really interesting U I question in like, okay, how does IT present that data back to me? How do we make choices together? How does he ask me questions without being annoying? And how far can you go down that road before i'm just doing as much work as you would have to go on katia and put to flight myself? Worth the very beginning of expLoring all of that and is actually why I think the new copilot is really interesting because this is a really different U I am this stuff like the copilot.

APP now is not just a chat, but you don't open IT up in the same empty expects. It's like full of props. You go on and like the screen shot they have this good afternoon at the top is this is like beautiful sort of warm baji colors. It's like IT looks like a meditation .

APP IT looks like a inflection to be very hard. The company they did not right.

Uh and inflection. I think one of the reasons people have been interested in infection for a long time because theyve been doing smart U X stuff on top of ai, uh, which is very hard to do when you also have to build your own models, but makes a lot of sense to do inside of a company like microsoft, which has all the other resources. But anyway, you you go in and IT says, like the the screen shot that keeps sharing as good afternoon and then that offers you a bunch of things to do, right? You can go to is as export skills you can learn in a month, uh and presumably you click on that and I will essentially engage.

The copilot model in like leading you to do a bunch of things you can learn how to do in a month, IT says tips for meditating, which is another one that like that quickly turns into a text conversation, but is like a different way into that interface and I just think this is really smart and clever for microsoft to say basically like A I is such a discovery problem in terms of, like you open this thing up and its a chat back and waterway de, what do I do? How do I ask these questions? How do I talk to this? What's available to me? What's gonna work? How like what is the actual correct interface for this? And microsoft is like starting to abstract away the text box a little bit. Uh, and I think we're starting to see bits and pieces of like what this new interface might look like, but even this feels like the very begin of that.

So I want to to see the quote for a staff of sluman who was the co infection that was now the c of microsoft abbot reminder microtv not .

buy inflection yeah, for make sense. They just hired .

everybody for inflection and gave them an equivalent invite of equity and microsoft stocks. They would have had inflection had they bought inflection.

but they didn't .

buy IT got the old con two step. yeah. This is described in the bar down the valley.

Here's a quote from his office living in is a CEO max shot. I and again, this redesigned to compile ots first spect project in microsoft AI. We are creating an AI campaign for everyone, he says.

I truly believe we can create a common, more helpful and more supportive era of technology. Quite unlike anything we've seen before. I shall not hear that my stuff has delightful british accent. And so when he says quite a like anything .

we've seen before.

you have to imagine that. nice. yes.

So this is like the notion here is that they've made you a friend. Everyone has a vision of the, you know, the great executive assistant. And I can't tell if they're thinking of jarvis for pepper pots. And I think microsoft much rather have you think of jarvis given that deplete like being tried to bank Kevin rules, I don't know else to say about that yeah like friendly but not trying to bang you is the very much the time they're trying again.

like not horny, that's the dream .

they're trying to have strand IT from being human like and .

us bangle. I don't know there are some people there. Good do not make a good is true.

I lady, the roller host all the .

time we have to see a republic undergoes again there IT doesn't matter um but this notion that here's is like very calm like space free to be in. We're going to ask for help with everything from uh, your mental wellness to getting worked on to booking flights and you've got this assistant character that is what everybody wants.

My question is the reason ChatGPT took off in the whole industry for a reorganizing itself is because the wide open text box is such a powerful thing, right? Like I don't know just when to talk to you. You can talk back to me and ask IT whatever question it's gonna wer correctly. That is the enabling technology.

right? IT isn't. IT isn't really. It's it's powerful in the same way that the command line is powerful that if you if you know how to Operate IT, you are unstoppable, but is in the .

point that you don't need to know how to Operate the thing you just talk to IT.

sure. That's a great idea that isn't remotely concurrent with technology if you want to .

think about what you're going to say, right? Like i've run into this every time I trying to use a chatbot as i'm like, what the hell do I use this for? What do I need this for? And then I feel really weird talking to IT because I can think of her and all these other things. You've seen that happening. You like that persons kind desert.

Like what do .

you doing later? And I copeland like this, please leave alone. chance.

Well, I do think there's a big chunk of people who show up to something like ChatGPT, knowing what they want and will do stuff like that. There are lots of people who work like that. Most people don't.

Most people are not like that is not baked into their brain that like, i'm tired. Let me talk to a chat bott about IT, right? And so like maybe someday will get there. I think it's not crazy to imagine that, that becomes a much more Normal behavior for a much larger number of people, but we're no where near that yet.

And so right now, it's the chat bott is both very powerful and like the ultimate cold start problem uh, and I think even you're starting to see ChatGPT and others like offer you prompts and ideas and just like little things that it's like here's the kinds stuff I can do just to get you over that hump of like what am I supposed to type into this box? Yeah because I think the more you use IT, the more you get IT and the more natural fields. But those first few are really changing. But I just I just want to mention one thing.

There was a really great piece in the atlantic this week uh about uh a bunch of researchers who got a huge data set of people's transcripts with ChatGPT uh and basically went through IT and found people are willing and able to reveal so much about themselves to a chat by in this incredibly like deep personal way and that just keeps reinforcing this idea for me that like the bar for people to pour their lives and souls and hearts and minds into these things, treats people is so like what way pass that are all of these models pass whatever turing test there is in real life at this point, right? And and so now the question is basically like, what products are we supose to make out of that? And the first one is just it's fun to talk to, right? That's where we are with so much of this.

And like now the the that doesn't microsoft anywhere IT just cost microsoft lot of money, right? Like being fun to talk to is not how microsoft kes money over time. They've gotta figure out this other stuff. And I think you're starting the .

co pilot push towards that. Yeah, so was faster with this is on the flip side of this then again, so I agree with all that. What is deeply fast named to me is the flip side of the new copilot, which is the voice mode, which is inherently open ended. You just talk to IT IT doesn't wake up and say, hey, would you like to matter?

Just like push the button, start talking and then IT talks back to you, interpret IT like all the new multimodal voice modes can do and that IT seems like you don't have to prompt people like they will just start talking to the AI and A, I will just talk to them. And that feels very natural. And then the other one is copilot vision, where can do all the things that all them can do now, which is, like, look at the web for you and like do searches.

And that also doesn't have fronting. It's just that text box were like we need to show people what they can type. Everything else is kind of wide open. And I think that's really I think that split is just going to keep going. It's just going to keep getting wider and wider and wider where when you want to do IT in, where you want to interact with the computer and ways to feel more human like talking, we don't think we need to prompt you because you're just going to start talking and in my and keyboards and typing still feel like computer stuff, and people still need instructions or training leads or whatever metaphor you want to use. So I get up and running yes.

Yeah I I totally agree. It's why everybody is pushing toward both voice and vision, right? Like the camera is very much the same way, like in the way that sitting down at a text box to accomplish a goal is not a thing that comes nature.

For a lot of people taking a picture of a thing. Super, is that just the world now? And so the like google just rolled out the the geri searched with a video in lens, which I think is going to be very successful.

Uh, everybody's doing this multi moddle search. Part of copilot is now that IT has the same voice mode and IT will do the the video search stuff. And like those, I totally agree. Those are the things that are gonna like immediately click in people's brains. And I wrote this future for wired when I was there, like in twenty sixteen, being like the voice for revolution is coming.

Uh, and for years I looked at that piece being like boy and I with on now one because he was like that this is then was that IT was IT was alexa IT was syrian IT was google assistant, was like, this is going to change how we interact with our computers and yet, like like microsoft. Uh, I wasn't wrong. I was just wait too early. Well, the enabling .

technology was in there. I want to keep coming back to this point. Everybody had this idea. And in the first problem everybody had was the computers can actually understand what you are saying. And the end, they do set a time for for five minutes that gets filtered into some pretty static algorithms like I will set a timer, or in the case of theory, only one at a time.

Help us two timers, it's them like five years, or I can place some music or I can go to a google search, or I can look at with her out, like these very prety planned routes. And now you have an enabled in tele logy, which I can just understand anything you're saying, and I can go look at stuff. And with a multi model search, find IT understand IT and sped IT back out to nurture language that is a very powerful set of enabling ing to, like you, just everybody had the right ideas, but the literally the core bits and bobs weren't there. I knew when I was a child that call phones would exist.

I could not make LCD screen like that is the thing right? IT. Just in the middle is all of the, I think what everyone uses this agenticity like an agent. Oh.

it's good. yeah. The first time .

I heard is a good agented .

OK ounds.

Like a consulting .

firm, a sound like me medication .

of like that doesn't you're not sure if that works like daughter Better today you ask your doctor if you are ready for agented.

Well, if you're A I curious, the verge test and agents are here for you. Um okay, so you've got all these ideas which are okay now can understand you can go do stuff for you in in the middle, they actually doing stuff for you. Unclear how those test will be accomplished.

Is IT a bunch of aps? Will delta provide a bunch of flight booking? As to all AI products.

delta can even manage to get their a flight at the plains .

of software. Very tense relationship right now is everyone just can allow A I bots to to set up V N, C clients in the cloud and click around on their websites. That is a very slow and very brittle .

and computationally like expensive.

probably computationally expensive. Been like they could be wondering them in black light. I don't know there's right some way, you know, who knows, but that is such a hack.

But the pure hacked to say the way the AI agents are gonna is we're going to light up crime on A P, U. S. On a linux instance for every individual user.

Take your credentials to the cloud and then click around in websites to accomplish the task for you, because what you really want to do is speak to your phone. Maybe could do IT locally, right? Apples going to do IT with intense in theory.

So you talk to theory presumedly. Whenever apple intelligence ships a bunch of APP developers, we've had to allow theory to accessors services in syria locally. Will fire off a bunch A P. I calls.

And do you stuff on your front? The middle part is totally up progress. I don't know if anybody has an answer. I don't know if anybody has a fallback that is Better than we're going to light up a co instance in this sky.

And I don't know if anybody has a solution for what happens when kaap or dorax or delta like don't have the ability to show you their user interface, they will leave you on door ash. And suddenly people can order stuff without ever looking at the door ash interface. You don't actually run much of a company anymore. All of your revenue opportunities go because you are built an advertising, the thing where they try to get you to order more stuff the second you order and something .

and convinced this is door ash and .

ah they like john wanna sota with this like double dash counter comes up and you like that's just more stuff but that's the business uber is like would you like uber eats if you just if you commoditize all of those services and the things that A I can do, those companies are me like actually know like uber and lift want to be different companies, not just commodity .

providers of .

taxes to AI pipe. You get a know that I think all of these companies are going to run into the reality of what everybody else is going to be a commodity for your AI. And I truly right now, that seems like the fall back answer is, well, just kind of click around in your website. I want to do not have a website and IT lately IT seems like the answer is not .

have a website yeah or .

like a terms of service battle about you have to be a human .

user website in the conversations i've had with folks. That part of this is also they not necessarily wanted do that. They just wanted to be like this companion you talk to and doesn't necessarily it's not your executive assistant. It's not ordering you flights that are anything like that. It's there to help with.

It's there like .

basic things. And then I think with all of you, you still run into this cultural cons like culturally. Are we prepared for this? Are we prepared to make these things are friends? And I don't think people are well.

so the new co pilot, because IT has open I A win, IT has a feature called think deeper, which allows you to supply step by step answers to complex questions. Like, should I move to new york or 3Frances co。 H, which is definitely something you just want to ask.

You want to ask a computer that that is the thing like, right? Like it's it's trying to replicate friends and and I don't know how to tell IT computers are not friends. Their computers, they don't have souls, they don't have the ability to reason.

But this is what a David saying. Once you let people talk to computer.

they just start talking, right? They like to talk once you let somebody on the internet. They love to put everything on the internet, right?

Like like there's no, we all love to, just not everyone, but a lot of people just have to put themselves out there. And all these forms. And generally speaking, culturally, we think it's weird when someone talks to a computer over over again.

We see an TV in film that's like the the example of that person is cut off from everything they know. That person is profoundly lonely. I think of was that mr.

Robot, where the woman would, every episode, have a conversation with alex a and and IT was meant to show you how sad, empathetic SHE was. And now we're like, actually that isn't sad of pathetic. It's cool with copilot.

We should do a remix .

of this very I .

actually don't know I I I don't know if the answer, why I know the answer a question I should you mute york is obviously york just put their straight out um everything no.

that's true. Yeah, I was going to fight that for it's sorry .

to everyone in sentences.

Sorry, importa. Can you Robin and our reporter report in a loge reporter, but i'm right. It's york.

But the idea that you can have some like big life decision and you're asking, computer always takes way. I help you think through IT fine. Does that make you Better talking to other people? Unclear that. Like that's what the replica of people says. The people practice having social interactions of the robots and then they go off in the the world and .

they're confident. I am really of the mind that we should spend more time wondering if actually those two things have nothing to do with each other, right? Because I think the like a armies side of that argument is people are talking to computers and thus not talking to other people.

And you hear the stories is about like the the women in asia who are dating men who are a eyes instead of men in the world. And there's like this big moral crisis about IT, like there is probably a lots of interesting research being done on those friends. But I think to me, the question of is that a good and healthy thing to have a relationship like this with a computer is interesting and important in its own right.

Can I read the quote from silicon on that directly responds to, yeah sure. We are not creating reminder beautiful x musical did not get .

acquired by microcode.

by crosse. We are not creating SATA tool so much is establishing a dynamic, emerging and evolving interaction. IT will accompany to that doctor's appointment, taking notes and following up at the right time. It'll share the load of planning and preparing for your child's birthday party, and IT will be there at the end of the day to help you think through a tRicky life decision.

This is just a friend, what he is, what he is describing as a friend who's going to come do all that in and then you can just take a advantage of the friend, like plan this birthday be party and I that is a huge vision. And again, i'm just pointing out, okay, planning and preparing for child's rather party requires doing a bunch of stuff. And how IT does this stuff is not a technical problem.

IT is illegal problem and IT is a set of business problems. And I don't know if anybody actually has the answers to those problems right now. Can this robot go use a website on my half? Well, I can meet.

Someone can just try to, terms of service, agree on the prohibits that. And now we have to have a lot. And microsoft can paid the money.

They get money, but like they they gonna get fought out before this vision happens. And I think there's is always with the tech industry, there are, uh, permission. It's still really .

weird that a couple of years ago, google fired a dude in part of the reason that fired him, not the entire reason part of IT, was that he insisted the AI was like human enough now and then now we're back now we've gone all the way around. You look at how human r AI is a feature .

or not a bug now yeah and .

that's just that's a weird turn that i'm having trouble making along with all of the tech companies they did that. And i'm like, hello, i'm so back here like it's kind .

of weird google like you've planned to many birthday parties out here.

Can I just say, by the way, to companies, stop using children in your marketing for A I C. It's just a bad idea like stop having them right letters to olympus with IT stop having their birthday parties planned with A I like please, please leave children out of IT it's just not a good look IT makes everything feel very to stop y and .

and bad can let us not do that most parents yg children deep, extraordinary, controversial discussion about whether can should have ones at all yeah, just what you do also, if you're going to spend your time to doing anything, it's planning your kid's birthday party. All of the rest of the time he had freed up. So you can do that thing. Yeah right?

We have. They can do that because all the other stuff is business stuff. And and you get into what is legal, like your company GTA say, if you're using this to plane all of your your meetings, they might have problems you know, like like you run into that thing of, okay, this has to be in the personal space because we're .

not yet ready to put this. And who can .

get more money with kids?

loser. What would be a good add for A, I is me sending my stupid A I note taker to all of my meetings so that I can go play in my kids birthday party. What if i'm outside with my children while my? A, I is in a meeting now I been on A, I.

I just want to point out the area on the sea of zoom came on. The coder said, soon all meetings will be AI avatar ars talking each other, and you will have thousands of AI over thousands of meeting.

Somebody posted something on thread the other day. I don't know if that was true or not, but they posted a screen shot of a google meet with several people in a meeting, and all of them had just sent their .

A I note that's the scene from a the the greatest movie of all time. Real genius. We fell cuma, where in the eighties everybody puts their bomb box in the record, the lecture, then the the professor comes in place the lecture of the boombox.

This is one of the most undated movies outside. This is welcome er's greatest performance region. Go watch this movie, everything you need to know about my personality comes from this movie.

I'm just letting you know this sounds like a special episode we need to do. Sort of serious.

we just wash. Real genius. Yeah incredible final scene.

Um okay ah speaking of A A I companies that don't ask anyone for permission to do anything, opening I just for six sixteen dollars. So build god, that seems fine. That's cheap. Yeah.

everyone works.

They're still right. They're in now more founders of OpenAI who work at anthropic that work at open eye. This is a real step.

Prety fantastic. Who knows? Going to that single man has consulted ever more power. I think one of the big questions here with all this microphone news is that feels c. Microsoft is pulling farther and farther away from OpenAI.

I mean, for microsoft, this is just it's just a really great way to get a lot of computing money. Uh, I forget to with the authorities, but somebody at the information wrote a very good story, basically epm like here's why all these investors would do this and you just go on the list and it's like, oh, in video is in this because in video is actually just giving OpenAI money that IT will get back yeah because for all of its technology, microsoft same uh thrive is like into deep now you've just they've pin their whole yeah like being grows with founders and with same altman in particular.

Uh you you could make a case that this is not the like vast bet that open the eyes greatest company in the history of ever, that IT appears to be on its face. Uh but IT also is IT puts open eye on a pretty wild position, which is I think that the money hinchingbroke company becoming a four profit company within two years, uh, which is a big deal that we've come known, was coming. Uh the thing I thought was the wildest was that uh, opening I apparently asked all of its investors not to invest in other basically similar companies, not to invest in in opening I competence, which is just a wild thing to be able to ask your invest like I watched silicon valley, I know that you're supposed to have multiple place in every in every sector of the market. And so for open eye that just be like, no, you you can touch anything else you on part of this is pretty not um also soft bank is in this no which is not great .

yeah but .

now what you want that money is good, but the pipes are bad.

All this also hinges on we would have mentioned the phrase enabling technology one two times. There's a difference behind the engineering you need to make the technology and then the product work. You need to make the products. And all the stingers are open at going from a research in engineering company to a products company. And right now I have but one product which is tragic ity.

Are there being some vast lep left to do in the engineering side? Like but all those people left, what right? But I mean but but organize cases is got right. Like they they if if opening ee is right about that, there are several gigg antic leaps left here.

And there are an increasing number of people out there who say maybe they're aren't and maybe IT doesn't matter that maybe this technology now is good enough to do most of the plausible stuff that we want to do. And actually, to your point, all the interesting stuff left is product like we've built the internet. Now what are we going to do with IT is like that one moment we're in, there's another moment that we're in. This has all of this is about to get one hundred thousand times Better at like a fountain level and that will change everything all over again. And uh, I hear an increasing number of people who don't believe that second thing is true, but that's open in eyes entire pitch for why it's worth all of this money.

And that pitch comes down to we will run an even larger, will train an even larger model and even larger amount of data.

which they are running out of data. So they're they're .

going to make that tic data to do IT and theyll use all of the power and satya ia to build a senate like legitimately. This is how they are talking to this, how this when their money. And that's just a big bet.

You had to do a lot of things. I believe the people at t sm c, for the same woman is a podcast pro. When they heard, they heard his ideas to be thirty six morpheus s to making ships. But that's just a big idea. And maybe i'll get the money.

Maybe i'll do IT who is it's just in the meantime, while you're busy building thirty six fabs to build the world's largest data center, to train the world's largest model on synthetic data that your current models have produced, everyone else is going to go build products in like maybe that's fine. You like I just there's a weird here, you know we're covering IT, we're all over IT, but I would just zoom out of like the data day sam altman drama. I know like what are the products?

There's also is the third one, which is that A I is a bubble and and it's about to pop, right? Like like that a lot of this stuff is is just built on dreams and ambition, and there's nothing actually to back IT up because if you don't have those products, if you don't build god in the next five years, shareholder can be like you. We got, yes, I gave you a billion dollars.

This is, look on a capitalist. I often do capitalist critique, but I would say shareholder will get mad if you don't. People got the next five years is the perfect imation of where we are in technology castles. And that is there's a very verge test right there. And I just want everyone to hold on .

to IT as tightly as well. We have the title of the show that is good.

we to take a break, come back to talk with gadgets, and I might mention the genus three or four more times. Support for this .

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We're back with the real genius radio hour. The movie is great actually to be to be a hundred percent on the nose. That movie is about A A group of scientists to invent a laser that gets production zed into a weapon. And at one point, one of the main character says, that's where the engineers to figure out the real thing with. IT is great, truly one of the finance movies.

often apparently to prepare for. They did a lot of research into the C I, A. And laser really founded in.

do that much in months.

We can previous as months of like this is a movie .

and watched the breakthrough, its octo screaming ice is nice. Give me the director and did the research.

not the writer, something research they did .

a lot of researching to like MIT and caltex secret societies. Okay, this movie is great. It's it's a tremendous eighties movie.

Then you to watch like five times sketch all the jokes. It's great. All right, lot of gadget stuff going on. So we start with the the meta glasses.

Yeah, this is like, realize dream came true and a horrible. And we have to talk about IT.

So so many people have pained me with this story, the email on threads, just, I in the comments of unrelated stories slacked. A group of cultures are believe in harvard. They took the matter revenons, and they just hacked IT together.

So with the meta bands, you can just stream live to instagram to set up a private instrument account. They start streaming life from the meta bands, and then they set up facial recognition watching their computer's live stream to just tell them who they were looking at. And he droch this video. It's great. You know, everyone is the video at of the videos at at all snappy there's like moments of discovery and despair.

It's like the whole thing but like dudes on the subway and he just looking at someone and IT tells them who they are because you've done facial recognition and then he walked up to them and is like, hey, are you this person that where did I meet you at this place and ever in elsewhere and IT is, maybe I put on like, maybe this only worked half the time. It's a video, right? We don't know.

But the proof concept is there, like that chain of things all exist, streaming live, instagram exist, world by facial recommission systems exist, text messaging exists. You can make this product today out of the things that exist. You can go do this.

And IT is terrifying. IT is one hundred percent the product I want. I want to be very clear at this. I said this so many times in the show, but if you could give me A R glasses that just tell me who people are, tell people's names, that is a killer APP for this product. And that always has been, always will be in the cost of IT, which I have said every single time I have said this is a kilar APP is that you need to build a worldwide facial recognition database and that is terrifying. And the second someone build, even this had together prototype, it's obviously terrible.

Yeah by though I met a we asked .

him about IT and they just send a block quote of their terms of service to us yeah I mean.

IT makes so plain that the only reason this isn't happening is because everyone is slightly skied out by except for you, apparently I would be the .

greatest politician american history. I could remember people's ames. I do not want to shy away from that is my claim.

I will stick to IT. IT is unapprovable. But I know in my heart that IT is true.

Everyone should have this when they have to go to like c or something like that, like really big events. I would be totally fine with that. You wearing on the street? No, stop.

I don't even like where the nf tag built into the bad.

No, no.

I wanted know who everyone is. see. Yes, I want to be like, okay, I did meet you five years ago. I'm so sorry.

That seems great. This is made me think so much about the U. X. Of all this.

Like, like, what if you can wear these glasses? But I wouldn't show you somebody y's names unless the glasses had seen them before. So in theory, your first encounter with somebody wouldn't just tell you their name.

But if this was a person you knew somehow you had a picture of them in your google photos where you are a friends with them on some social network, like again, a series of very query database. Then IT could be like, oh, you know, this person? Like.

does that the sketchy? No, because then your spouse puts on your glasses and finds out you been having going to fair for five years. I just went to straight there, right? That's gonna en because you put him on and then there's like, why does IT recognize this person because they were being in them wow.

you look at your phone. It's like he's been banging the assistant this all time. No, you 哪 扣 牌 了。 Just starts and be rule, uh, I someone's going actually do this whether whether it's this hacky product or another one of these companies, once the display technology is available, some instantly build product.

I mean, that could go build this right now, but then we would not be making talking about a shirt as much. We would be talking about that.

Well, I don't know the U. S. This is David saying is the thing because you need the glasses and actually show you the name of the person. I think it's just saying the name no, this is why it's a hack yeah right now like texting .

you the name I mean, so I be fine with that.

but I I think it's like as a consumer product that's a little chAllenging yeah right?

Or am I watch you've just pops up on .

your watch fill it's .

a teacher like I think .

that be great on everyone. Film you're film. I'm saying once the right medical buildings with uri on presumable because I have to display technology, but that's fair ware. Yes, i'm saying once and sometime I once in this way technology to put images on glasses that you just see the real world exists. This technology is vital.

No airports solves this problem. Like, did you do you watch whip? Yes, you know how gary and vab is just forever behind her?

Yeah, this. This is gary. Like, call this product, gary and it's just whenever someone is like clearly walking towards you, IT just tells .

you who they are and it's just .

tony hale's voice inti ill give tony hill millions of dollars to do this and I will IT is funny.

how obvious ous the trade office to everyone once they see IT oh, because again, four years i've been saying I would buy this product hard people. But you have to build the worldwide special recognition to a to do and then you see IT, right?

But everyone don't like that. Don't like that.

There is a worldwide facial recognition. It's just the internet anyway, want one. If these questions calls with the whole, I want to know everything about this project networks give this call a other garage.

Oes, sonos announced a plan to fix the APP. We haven't covered this too much on the rich chest. I don't think in bits and pieces. Chris watch has been covering the story top to bottom on the site. Uh, so obviously shown us without the APP, IT was not a hit.

People hate IT IT. Yeah, I think that, I think that is safe to say people hate .

IT IT missing A A functioning ality. The ongoing narrative is that they needed to rush out the headphones. And I want to take conspiracy theory because I think IT, I think IT is correct. They needed to rush out the headphones they needed to put version at to support the ability of the headphones a in the apple machine must functionality, very bugging, missing core functionality.

People at the company were upset that they were releasing IT. And so now they're like, okay, what if we listen?

Why are you guys being so nice to sonus? This is like weird, delicate sonus released a horrible APP everyone hate IT and IT has basically .

tank to the company like it's .

just that simple. The reason that IT happened was because they weren't listening.

No, it's because sonus release a horrible APP that everyone hate.

IT is what i'm trying to have to do. I'm trying not to just just repeat like redit conspiracy theories and say only what I actually know because the red concert aries are in fact out of control. And yes, at this point, the company is so tanked its reputation.

They can do anything, right? So what they have done is they took a lazars, who is their chief legal officer, and they assigned him the project to figure out what happened. And he was in a rather report.

So he did that at, he's been on the show. If before we talk to him and they released to their plan, the plan is charitably, fairly vae. The plane contains things like unwavering focus on the customer experience. To ensure that we deliver the highest levels of customer experience, we will always establish ambitious quality benchMarks to the outside of product development. Is that the plan the .

plan is like IT just makes me think of the people who are like, no one holds me to a higher standard than I hold myself. So to everyone i've disappointed, please know i've disappointed myself even it's like, no, you still did bad. One of the .

other pieces of a plan is demonstrate humility and introducing changes. Uh, in contrast, you all once automated public, we should make any major changes soon as apple is gradually. I would just point out, this is how every other company has done everything forever.

So I I think there, yes, we should have some humility. But also, just like, do IT good is one of those in the last one, which I think is oddly backfired in peace. People of the most is the executions are for growing their bonuses.

See, they know they did bad, just like they sad. No one knows more than they do.

So there in their advising the assembling customer advisory board to get feedback and insight. And people are going to like finish the APP.

make APP good yeah there are two real things I will say um in addition to all of those not real things that you just said, uh they are extending the warm, the manufactured warn on a bunch stuff which is good to like OK minute will keep supporting your stuff through that um and the other one they are doing, which actually to some extent confirms some of the conspiracy theory uh, as they appointed, I believe are calling at an ombudsman en to basically uh help internally figure out what people think and deliver that opinion to the people who are in charge because one of the stories we've heard is that people inside of sonus were freaking out about how about the apple s and that they were sort of resultant ly ignored in favor of just shipping the APP.

And so there were people inside of the company who were like this, we can do this. This is a disaster which made me think of, like, the folks of humane who are trying the thing before ship to like, this thing sucks and they were just wap. And so so on is, at least IT seems, taking steps to make sure that particular thing doesn't happen again.

What seems good, yeah yeah, if they listen to that person.

I think at this point to us, is very worried that a lot of people, but are realizing that airport to exist.

I, I never use the empty more. I just use airplay.

yeah. But a lot of people have realized that airport to exist and can group speakers from variety of manufacturer together as can conceive. A A lot of people have discovered that their phones have stuff in them.

They're betting on at the arc to and a bunch of new products that are coming out. But if your APP doesn't work, IT doesn't matter. Yes, but I get wrong edition ger strategy of ratee is making .

good yeah what's .

on these new chrome box?

So they found A G button.

Sorry, sorry.

it's the gi button. They found the gin .

are not calling IT the german I button. This is the thing that throws me. It's called the quick insert button.

Oh, good.

What is basically? So one, one of the hacks for years on chrome books has been to reuse the caps button. A lot of people do IT.

You can use IT to like invoke uh the the menu, but no, a lot of people do that. You can do IT for like a search. The capsule is a sort of endless ly mutual thing in the chromo universal.

Lot of people do IT. So what google is doing now is replacing the cap lock button, which is also sometimes the searcher enter button, uh, with what's called the quick insert button. And I think the idea is that it's just gonna be the like way to do all of the help me write or turn this into different kind of google doc or whatever inside of any product. The idea is to like A I your way through the internet with this one.

Yeah, it's like this little Sparkle. You see an android now. Yeah, exactly. It's a little button and it's got A G on IT.

Yeah and I think that's fine. Yeah I mean.

that's the same thing we saw with copilot, right like it's like the copilot but yeah, on on windows this this is google version and it's like, yeah, they had to do this. Windows did IT IT makes sense.

right? I do think this is like A A statement of A I is important to us more than IT is like an actually useful user feature. But uh, IT is IT is something that will remind people to use IT, which I think counts for something.

I I don't know。 I ve spent a long time like waiting for chrome box to be like cool, exciting to computers. And i'm kind i'm just over IT now this just makes me tired. This is just like a bunch of students who are going to, like you say, I to write their papers now and now easier.

great. But isn't samsung saying this is this is like one of their their fitness laptops ever? Sure tom says that about .

every crime work they ve ever made? Yeah, but they're running out of there are running .

out of chrome book. No room are .

all talking now about like thirteen and twelve hours about life. I think with the number on the two here and they're like six hundred and seven hundred dollars and then there's a link vo one that's cheaper. But like these are not impressive numbers anymore like we're we're in a new phase of laptops. You all like chrome books. Come, come, do something new and interesting again.

yes, or be cheap.

The fact that new li, I bet, still has not replaced his mom's chimbolo pixel, uh, should be a real problem for everyone of the cream b team a google and I super don't think IT is.

yeah. So if you don't know, this is an I, my mom, a crambo member. Bow pixel was a thousand, all lar crab.

Still maybe the sexes laptop .

all is IT all yellow?

No, no, fine. IT was A I ought that for a big case the .

one that got weird on the progress, the chrome book pixel was the one .

that was like metal and was ordered was was IT was a USB c computer back when I was like a thing and not every computer um but I was my mom needed a new mac and I was just like there's too many interface metaphors here and I was before all the ones that exists now on top of the reading else and like he just wants to a brazing your shit and so I bat her comb over a thousand dollars cream book with an I seven and ridiculous she's still using IT because just once crime yes yeah and just know she's banging around the ball day. I would love together anyone but there's I can't think of a .

reason to not complain .

and there's not one that is as cool looking as the crime pixel because you again, that was a thousand old .

computer .

and that was a little light .

bar that on IT yeah, the very top and great. Every morning I check on IT and IT continues to run from which is all anyone really needs. And I think google just hasn't chased that idea all the way to ground, right? Like what most people, they're just cheap and like students get them to cheat on their homework of setting more time with pix line pro in google is just like AI.

Clippy is everywhere. Every time you pick up that funds like more stuff and it's just fun yeah in a good we can bring that to a chrome book. Maybe that will be fun. But I I don't think they think of the come up of the same way, think the pixel agree .

yeah and as as a layer on top of stuff, google is is like the quick insert button, where you can just like put IT anywhere kind of make sense, right? Your invoking like system software instead of just doing inside google. But I I don't know. I don't see IT hard to get excited about IT. It's interesting that .

we didn't talk about this next one in the context of microsoft twin co pilot because microsoft was ahead on A R glasses with all lands and in the same breath that they are doing this new copilot, they are just continue hollen. The everyone's idea is that you'll have an an assistant that just looking itself with you. But I think hollands just .

never got there. But also the who like was a big champion .

of hollows.

He was not a great guy.

He was not a great guy and left the company and setting.

oversaw the whole thing. And he, so you didn't have any advocates within the company with real power, is a me figured IT a lot of IT out straight off the bad, and then just never did anything. The sides teachers .

have to change red IT out again, so they solved a display problem. Well.

I don't think the display problem, I think I think the user interface, I thought the user interface, and I really just made sense. And we've seen bits of kisses of that in stuff from that. A we seen but some pieces of that and stuff from from google ah yeah we see for a lot of people like that the pinch pinch on stuff like that saw that there first. But then again, all they did with that was teach you and I how change Spark plus.

And that's not so to the day, one of the coolest amos i've ever see, super, super court, set up a full garage.

Pull up beauty.

Yeah, there's all of that problem. They set up a full log in the walk round. And I was like, there is a Spark up there were go, is that IT was sick. And I if I ever open up in A T, V shop with a lot of extra money, I don't know what i'm doing.

This just makes me think that like this, coming on the heels of what we are talking about with meat last week, click, it's so clear that the only way to do this right now is to have some states ler, ideally your C, E. O, who is so Helen, on the idea that this is the future, that they're going to just pour money on the rain to make that happen. So tim cook, I think tim cook is one of those people like he.

That man has been a true believer in A R for a long time, like a long time, and has talked unusually publicly about how much he beliefs in A R for a really long time. And I don't think microsoft has that conviction. I don't think microsoft has that conviction about much sometimes. So it's detriment.

IT did have that conviction for a little bit there, right? Like like they like they were like this is going to be the future of computing. We're going to do everything this way. Go get yourself one of these aster headsets and put IT on so you can see the future and then and said they're like, never mind. Well.

I think to your point, the people with that conviction don't work there anymore.

right? And and so and then they saw I I and they said that chinny in networks, that's what we're .

gonna and IT also makes us azure money like yeah I just I feel like microsoft conviction is in office and an azure and everything else IT will just worry about later. And microsoft has figured out a way to make a lot of money on the AI revolution without winning the AI revolution.

And I think is gonna fine with that, whether that is the right call long term, or whether some next generation of microsoft leadership is gonna like, dear god, why did we give up on this in the same way that I think a lot of people feel like microsoft watched mobile in all of the decisions that is made and has made a lot of wrong decisions about killing products that turned out to have been the wrong decision over time. Who knows? But I I think you're right that like holy land got a lot of things right. And there's no reason to believe that if microsoft hadn't really, really bought into this idea, that I could be very much in this race instead of like kind of a joke inside of IT. Yeah, I don't think .

they solve the display.

I just want to be clear the the thing that is the problem for all these devices is the displays. And any microsoft got as far with lands as they could realized they were not getting any farther and decided to walk. And I will reveal this much.

I think the people who work on holds have looked at the iron and said, matter and already there. 嗯， just a, just a thing that i've heard to get fun at last one and we're going to try to get to this one day quickly. But I know it's just no, it's it's very complicated, but we can add some reporting to IT.

Like I said, we might breaks some news on the uh, there is a lot of drama and open source world about word press. If you don't know word press, I don't know how you listen to the show. I think the people is more chasing presses.

The word press, the most dominant content management platform. On the other is the thing runs on websites. Famously open source, famously, the verge is moving toward press. Uh, sometime next year. Uh, I would call this a conflict of interest, but we're paying them 嗯 yeah like slack is a .

conflict of interest because i'm force to use slack every day is fine。

Whatever that is a although evokes me, networks are the on word press Polly, on notably on word press vox to come on word press today, uh, sometime next year, where to move the back and the front will look like to the same IT doesn't matter. I'm just you know because we disclose everything is at at this point force habit, lot of drama and wordpress world. David.

what is going on? Oh, good. okay. So the very short version of this story is that I have to explain the structure of the internet, too. So the very short version in the story is a map on weg, who is one of the cocreate ors of of all things wordpress and is the CEO of automatic, which is the company that oversees wordpress c com, which does provide a lot of service to word press.

The the simplest way I can explain the difference here is there is where press com, which is a for profit company that provides a lot of wordpress services and host of websites and those all kinds stuff for wordpress. There's also a wordpress at org, which is the open source software that s up in everybody. It's google version of android and open source andred technically different things.

Super messy oversight questions over both of them. Uh, that mom weg is the super messy overset question over both of them. Uh, got mad. Mom wegg got very mad of this complicate W P engine, which is, I think pretty neatly, a wordpress to calm competitor. They provide lot of services to wordpress people.

They host wordpress. So wordpress is soft. You can download, just like host to yourself, right? We can pay another company to host, to manage IT for you just run your upset on W P.

It's got bought by a private equity company. Uh, matt moon weg, like many people, have strong negative feelings about private actually a pick to fight, basically saying you're being a bad citizen of the open source community because you're not getting stuff back to the open source community even though you're taking things from the open source community.

This spiral into W P engine essentially calling him exportation ist, which LED to uh, a lawsuit calling him extortioners after automatics sent them a term sheet basically demanding a chunk of either their revenue or their employees time dedicated back to the open force community. Uh, and I think that's a rough sense of worry, are these two sides are very mad each other about everything. And that mulan wegg would tell you that he is just being a defender of the open source community and the word press community. Large wp engine would tell you that he is trying to bully them out of their money and .

or out of existence, right? So along the way the only mechanism for wordpress stock common automatic to get money out of W P engine was to claim some amount of an illegal al property infringement somewhere 儿。 But you can do that because wordpress dot, because the worst ss code is open source, so that their claiming is trademark and french ment over the word press .

name and woo commerce, which is the thing that automatically and is a big it's like a shop of five competitor inside of the press and it's very, very popular.

So are claiming the street mark O E, you can pay some person revenue, which huge. This is all very messy. Then we've been reporting on IT. Ea, oh, on our team is amazing job reporting on IT by the time you listen to this, SHE should have a story up because he just talk to matt malon league but we were protesting SHE was doing reporting um there's a thing here going on but IT feels like where we're sleut and hairs the mad is trying to split hairs between the word press foundation, which has like a board of directors like a there three of them match one of them. They actually makes decisions, automatic and work. Press com, which is the company that he is the CEO of in in the middle wordpress at work, which is just a website that is the most important website in entire world press ecosystem. Because the other way that you can make life miserable for W P engine is by blocking access to the repository where all the plugins live on wordpress, which is wordpress outward plugins.

seems like all the all the stuff that isn't like the very basic infrastructure lives in.

yeah. So if you set up, if you take open source wordpress code, build IT yourself and put up here on website, you want to use a new theme, it's gonna. Look at wordpress word, which is all the plugins and themes. Bad moon way just had to M R wordpress dot, or just belongs to me personally.

Wow.

that's just his website. He's the one to control through repository plugins.

He made IT on wordpress site. I did.

I think IT runs a word. Ss, so there's the foundation which controls the open source code, and also notably has the trademark automatic, gave the trademark to the wordpress foundation of wordpress, and an wordpress foundation license stood back to automatic. So there's that mess where to call yourself wordpress, you need to apparently get the trademark, which is hazy.

That's a new idea. And then there's to use wordpress at any scale you might want to repository of plugin teams, everything, which just means that s to like you, because IT just is. Here's the other quote.

I happily provide world press network k services to literally every other host we serve, over thirty thousand requests per second. I can see the exact numbers, like forty times the size A W engine websites to pay wordpress outwards, for updates, for plugin searches, for iron searches, for everything they have, every right to the gpl code. And that perhaps that my P.

R. Team is trying to explain, they have access to the code, but they don't have any rights to call our services. So he's basically thing I can just take this away from you. Boy, and that is complicated. Like in the world of open source, the whole point of this is no one gets all the control.

And he's saying why I have this control, either they can pay us for the trademark, which will help pay to fund the development, or they can walk away from everything that I provide to my own. That's a lot of like I think a lot of open source people are having a lot of feelings about this. Can I just make the devil s advocate argument here? The the thing about open source is your other companies are supposed to able to take your coat, do whatever they want with IT.

And so I have all the feelings in the world about private equity. We did an entire decoder about private equity being that into the idea the privately by companies going to come and free ride in the open source community and provide hosting services and never contribute anything back to the code get problematic. But you know my offense.

But the leverage points and open source are rarely in taking things away. That's against the ideals of the community. And I there's something there that needs to get sorted out here that I don't understand. Like if you are on the chrome team at google, lots of people are doing all kinds of lucky stuff with the open source premium engines, including microsoft building browsers that compete with you. But you they're so open sourcing chromium because that makes the whole ecosystem Better.

I think the Better analogy in this particular case might be with a android because you have, on the one hand, A O S P, the the open source android, which which anyone can take and do whatever they want with a lots of people do like there is an overwhelming chance that everything in your house that you think is a gadget runs on android in some way. Many of them only open source. And and then there is what you would call like recognizable android.

And google famously littil ly regulatory, uh, said, if you want the full experience of android that feels like IT is to people, which means you need things like the place store, which means you need things like youtube, pretty popular. You need gmail, pretty popular. Here is a long set of rules that you have to play by and and it's technically you can have android.

Technically, IT is open source. But if you want the thing that is functionally recognizably the android that people want, here's a long set of google rules for IT. And that is a lot like either the thread or the reality of what happening here is like, sure, not yourself out. You can have wordpress, but if you want the thing that actually is wordpress, you have to play by my rules and that feels .

different if you want ww commerce and all of that like .

literally like plugins, like the thing that makes comments work is like that. That's a separate thing. And you if you're gna take away literally everything other than you can have words that render on a pitch and make that part of the like if you're in my good Graces side of things, you've completely changed the way that people can feel about this.

Well, so let me make a tiny distinction here because it's a small distance tion. It's a big one. So if you're motor a and you want to make an android phone and you are like, I can't sell on andre from the us.

Google maps, that means got to take all of place services and sign google's contracts that and this year, big company, right? And there isn't anything other than android you can run like, you know calling micros to me like so inner fun, right? But whatever but you have some kind of agency because you're a company and IT you I cannot make a funder.

In this case, the VP engine is a reselling wordpress hosting to its customers who are now being blocked from going to get plugins. And those customers are kind of being punished for picking a hosting provider. Competes with wordpress 点 com。 And I think that's where this just gets really sideways.

They're are trying to punish wp engine. And maybe you're right. I don't know my doing losers to us, but at the end of the day, it's a bunch of wordpress customers with people using word depress to run their businesses who are something getting the access shot off because of a business dispute somewhere above them.

And that's pretty weird. And so like just in the world of open source, like the whole point of IT is that that stuff when that happens, you just walk away and IT. Turns out the whole world protective system is runs on one guy's website. That's really saying to the technique.

You can get all of the a lot of those plugins and the stuff, not through the website, right? Like like I mean, it's been a while since I an a wordpress website, but you would go and you'd build IT. And then if you wanted just to quickly grab wu commerce or any of those other things, you go to wordpress at work or you'd go through the plug and set up.

we choose a or you .

could be like you'd go to, I went to theme forest and got a theme, or i'd go somewhere else, something like, oh, this this student just has a weird plugin on this website. I'm gonna take that and so you can still do that. But the the the convenience was you could just go a word press total.

Can I just read you a paragraph from this that actually think like me? He describes what you're talking, uh, so this is map mun weg route, this at the beginning of all of this uh, when they first ban W P engine from where which they did, but then that is spired. I don't I honestly don't know where we are. There's particular.

But what he said is if wp engine wants to control your wordpress experience, they need to run their own user logging system, update servers, plugin rectory theme directory pattern directory, black directory translations, po directory job word d metus conferences, bug tracker forms, slack pomatia showcase their service can no longer access our services for free like sure, yes, agreed. All of that is building and replaced undoable. IT is a hell of a lot of work. Like you can go build your own youtube .

if you want to go for IT.

No, thanks. God speed.

I feel like the line other way to conferences. Like a lot there. I mean, your plug directly, also a little more reasonable, will see and is got a piece coming out.

She's doing all the reporting. Those quotes came from her in real time as real time reporting from someone else. Well, he talked IT about hall and see here on the verge cast but that, sorry, shall we have the time you are listening to this? She's on the major job all week calling this part. It's gone to keep gone, much like our shot, which will be back after this break.

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I were back for the lighting round. I'd break some .

news on the lighting round.

The worst sponsor we've ever had lighting. We have some news. Alex saint ness, yeah.

So the news is of I am leaving the verge today is my last or when you're listening to this, it'll be my last day. This is my last verge cast .

IT might not be .

the last verge cast, might not be the last verge cast, but this the last one is. Host, yeah. Um and IT IT great time. I've had a wonderful time work with you guys and and doing really cool stuff here and talking about my black server, as is humanly possible, subscribed.

Now email how this thing to start a description for server business.

Yeah, that definitely won't end in litigation. So yeah, just gonna take a break for a little bit and plays many video as as possible. Hit me up if you you got recommendations. But IT has been a blast. And now we're going to talk about a lighting round.

No, first we have a surprise. Who I going to talk about? surprise?

yes. Oh, hi, yes. That the studio .

on fire with this plan for what happens? Well.

I figured out gs would make A A secret wish for her last step. Some of the verge casts, but our canal.

we am said alexiy have to make a secret wish and then blow.

you can. okay? I don't think this is .

we usually I should have .

to give .

you .

his jacket for your last.

First, I take the jacket with me because then not tell you what my secret wishes.

We're going to off one .

hundred percent. This is what IT gets. They send us out. We get my secret wishes.

We don't get arrested.

My secret wishes. Amazon fixes the kindle.

Hey.

I feel that in my heart. I feel like i'm bringing that .

into existence, willing welling, willing into existence. Well, IT has been a delight and a pleasure IT has. I'm glad we have to spend our last few years chases in the studio together.

Is this gorgeous studio that .

we have now lit on fire. IT smells like burning birthday in here so much.

IT smells very, very good.

You know how? Usually when we set down and here, IT smells like the next people, are you like.

what is that we and it's it's cake.

weed. All right, what's what? And is alex you the person .

of on? Yeah yeah. So lintons do is is continuing to find, switch a emulators and kill them. In this case, IT was rio drinks. I think that's how you say rio games and rio jinks um however you want to say that but IT was another switch emulator. They actually reached out. The intindola apparently reached out to the developer was like, can you stop? And it's unclear if they reached out the legal channels via stopping will give you money channels. It's it's it's not really clear there there they haven't said a whole lot, but but IT stopped a lot of theories for this to know is famously not gone after emulators in the past and now it's gone after this or two switch emulators that have been killed um and the my favorite theory so far is that the switch and the switch to have such similar like they work so similarly that they're trying to just head off switch to emulation by killing the switch one emulators which we saw the same thing with weavers that .

we use and uses the .

same things like the interest yeah so so that's that's like .

knowing switch to is so small of a leap yeah that switch one emulators now have to be illegal is if you like.

I know a lot no yeah so so um definitely play all of your switch games on your PC run Better and um that which is what we learned this week because of emulators like this. We saw like oh that actually runs Better when it's not the cakes .

not so good IT smells so much like taking here so much.

It's like a Baker ery and here in rules but but yes, so that sounds like the switch two is, you know if you still have your copy of this stuff, you might be only place some switch two games when IT comes out. We'll see same thing happened again. Same thing happened previously, but they didn't go after dolphin and all of those companies. So sometimes different this .

that is fascinating that they have not pushed the switch to that forehead yeah at least but what IT feels .

like yeah the exact same thing. We were all like, why is that we use so similar? And they are like, because we will want you're money and we didn't want to build about this stuff.

Alex, wasn't this stone that supposed to be untouchable after all the user stuff that was like, oh, but there's this other one. People started using IT in .

and they won't shut IT down based in brazil, right? yeah. So I was based in brazil.

So they thought like there's less litigation I guess you can do because brazza laws around this stuff is little different, but that's why nantongo apparently reached out directly to the developer and was like stop in unclear if they said stop really like really seriously or they said, stop. And then slowly pushed over a bag of money in a little mario suitcase. But something happened there.

Ah chan's been on IT. He will continue to be on IT. I'm sure he will find out the truth and he Better text by .

first we asked on right uh, story about the state of emulation and he came back with, I could do a multipart the future package and like .

one story started, he's not wrong.

He's not wrong, said, there's a lot. There are David.

what's this? I just wanted briefly talk about a web, A P, P. That i'm very excited about, which is the the new google pixel buds ds web APP is a web APP or went an APP on the web that you can download on lots of devices and use to manage your pixel buds.

You can update your firm where you can change the multipoint connection stuff. You can like do all the things you would Normally do on one device, but you can do IT on the web between, you can do IT anywhere. And i'm just like this, to me, was one of those moments.

It's like, oh, this is why the web is Better, right? Like this. This is an example. I will point you to a lot of people.

You can, you can update the form where on your blue tooth headset through a web APP. I just want to say that out loud, that that is the thing that is possible to do that's good. And that means you can do IT anywhere. And this is very exciting. And this is how we should work everywhere.

Wait the pics about stuff to talk to your phone to blue, to right through blue. De, right? yeah. So the web APP can control the blue eth on your phone or communicate a blue tooth on your phone. IT just feels like tim cook is standing being like you shall not pass.

It's a progressive web up, right? So you like have to sort of you have to like do the screaming thing. But IT has they are able to have this same kind of access.

And to me, it's like this is something google has pressed on for years, right? They're like rather than make good native apps, especially for IOS, we're just going to make you use our websites. Sometimes that sucks like with google dox, which I desperately could use a Better native APP on IOS but not in this case. It's like, oh, it's ridiculous that the only way to manage your headphones is through one single device and the fact that you can just open up a website and do IT on other devices is a good thing and like speaks to how powerful progressive ABS can be when they're actually like developed and worked on and allowed to be powerful. And I just think that's very cool.

IT sounds e so Normal that like you can already do this with a bunch of other products.

Well, with other products historically, yeah, they have all run tiny web servers in them, right? So you can control my SONY receiver through A A web browser. But you shouldn't mean not like there there's something there's there's a full on web server like a poche is running.

You think to be like what's happening in my house next week and .

you won't yeah it's just like web server.

I have a great time .

server writing on my receiver. I know you're after alex. Alex is bought a net flex. Several idea this in beijing, this to these these .

are on the country .

it's going to do. But you're talking about the actually talking the device directly.

not some more website idea, right? And it's a it's just a more cross platform way of doing the same kind of stuff lic. If you have a pair of airports, right, like you can, you can manage the settings of your airports on your phone in a way that you can't anywhere else like, god help you if you wants to, like, change the way you do stuff on your airpower ds through an android phone 是 best of luck fronto um you that's not how IT should work。 And this now works in other places like you because .

you don't have to write an android APP and IOS up.

And I just right with that, and IT works everywhere because IT actually has that access. And like I have I have a pair of bows. Uh, quite comfort head funds that like theoretically do multi point, but they never ever guess correctly which thing I want to connect to.

So I like turn IT on and it's like connected to these two devices and then I just play on my phone and it's like you didn't want that, you're trying to play from your computer, which is closed in your backpack. So have to open up the and on my phone, turn off the computer one, turn on the phone one and then and I will play in the the right place and that all of this management is bad. But the idea of just being able to, like, whip open a browser and do IT anywhere is good.

And I am in favor. So here's my worry about this. The web slips on the web, which means when google wants to turn off, which google often wants to do, IT just disappears whereat least if I have the bit of my I S device whatever, or my entry phone at least.

So there the thing i'm specific thing about um this week we ran a story, uh juice box E V charger juice box analysis just was like effort. We're out like we're just leaving north amErica and all of the back and infrastructure, including the commercial charges that they have installed, it's just go in dark. So the thing will still charge your car with whatever settings you have.

But if you want to change the am still want to connected to your electric company or whatever gone do like literally they change our website to just a letter that's like we out no, you can email this email dress that we are not listening to. And like that's the always the worry right is like if you're now depending. On google maintaining an APP on the web. Let me tell you about google history of maintaining APP on the web.

Ah I should also say IT only works in uh chromium so of a large serious brother IT won't work inside of including the I O S once. Uh, IT all sucks. That's Better like I just buy. I IT just confirms my belief that if we do IT right progressive where apps solve a lot of problems, yeah, somewhere deeper bone just did a thugs up at his head vons. Here we said that deter, I love .

you phones repair to the wrong the real .

years I knew I what's yours uh.

i'm so sorry for this but also you're welcome that sometimes you introduced what .

you're about to talk about and just immediately know and i'm like, oh, I can leave for twenty minutes. It's like this fine.

对。 So my lighting round is a direct T, V. The satellite T, V company is emerging with dish, the other satellite T, V company. It's for a dollar like the you you look at the transaction by cmc is like jg, T, V. To buy dish for a dollar, it's actually they're taking a nine billion dollars of debt.

Sometimes if you have one titanic and you put IT with another titanic, maybe I won't think as well.

You like you reduced the debt that i'm taking on by one dollars is what you have accomplish here. So requiring this like underwater company for A A dollar, a whole bunch of debt and drug T V is being further sponge out of A N T. By a private actually company called tpg management and then are going to merge holding with dish. And that would be the satellite company. And then echo star, the company currently on the dish, will be free to pursue its dream of starting a five g network in this country called genesis, which I does not exist.

So this doesn't kill the possibilities for access.

Genet five. This is still exists. The only film they have is the twenty twenty three motoring edges plus uh which you can get in some markets and mostly which from at least the redit uh rolls over to eighteen t and network and sucks on IT.

Sure that and I will remind you that this all happened because t mobile wanted to buy sprint and the trumpet administration didn't know how to stop IT. So the orchestrated a deal in which t mobile was allowed to buy sprint, a bunch of sprint spectrum went tradition network. Tradition network could stand up a five g network using a technology called open, open radio access network that would become a fourth wireless career and provide meaningful competition to A N T verse. And in able competition, which all this can feel every day with the lower Prices and Better services that we experience in our nation's wise system.

you have rise and definitely didn't go down this week for like a lot of people and a lot. So that good.

So that's what that that C A S news. That's what's happening.

Now I just the thing I want to a point to you is that this merger mania has been going on for twenty five fucking years in Rachel waller and I have been working there for a long time and we have covered so many versions of these merges between these companies that we just like looked at each other like is IT over? Is IT just beginning? How damaged are we? How much of my brain contains the knowledge of who owns direct TV? It's so much of IT.

So Richard in west Davis and I set down, we meet a time line. By the time you listen to this, our poor designer cathrine, may have solved how to make this timeline a short of mergers. I will tell you right now, IT, there's too many mergers on IT to make a visually coherent time meine.

Like, she's like, can you take stuff out of the timely? And like, no, those are the merchants. So let me just review some of what has happened here to arrive at directv buying dish for a dollar and .

billions of dollars. Why keep list of the number of companies I forgot exit .

or i've taken some out of? I've condenser IT. I'll put one on there right now.

There's a whole company, the whole sideshow of a company called skype a that I just removed from this just on my list. The the sky tera sideshow is just, i've removed IT. alright.

Our story start in january two thousand, one when a well time want to respond. In october two thousand, one, general motors G M, the car company tries to sell huge electronics, which owns direct TV, to echo star, the company that owns dish network. This is a Victory for echo star CEO x urgin, who beat out rupert murdoch, who wanted to buy a, who wanted to buy hues.

The fcc blocks urging from my acasta so huge acasta deal is blocked. This is a huge defeat for charley organ and news corp. River murdoch swooped in december two thousand three and wins the bid to buy huge and electronics, giving rupert murdoch control of direct TV.

March thousand four, huge electronics we brands itself is the direct T. V group. November two thousand and five, a city in texas called the Clark texas changes its name to dish texas. what? In exchange for ten years of free TV and dvs?

That's amazing.

This is a real thing happens in h two thousand six. I graduate from moscow, put in there, uh, because this is when Richard dii entered the scene and start blogging. Every one of these deals engage january. Doesn't echostar officially, we named itself to dish network and splits into two companies. One is dish network, the provider of satellite services, and the other is certain satellite assets which are owned by a new company called echostar is a sense no ecosphere. Renaming itself to dish in splits ofa company that only the satellite told echo star time Warner in march thousand nine spins of time Warner table, december thousand nine spins of a well, just keep that in mind. June thousand eleven, echostar, by huge communications member which .

didn't exist anymore.

giving echo star and therefore dish access to those satellites. February of two thousand and thirteen, conchas buys the remainder of nbc universal from G E general electric general, a process that had started two years earlier. March twenty fourteen, direct TV in dish are rumored to be in talks merger, which falls through may 4 eighty， announced that or by directv.

So now ten years ago, eighteen t is about to A T V june twenty eighteen eight and t buys time Warner and reading Warner media. I'm just reminding you, this started with general motors selling huge electronics to repair murdoch. And we end in june twenty teen with a buying time Warner, which I will remind you resulted in the four three gray scale ster cant. Just putting that out there, twenty twenty dish network suggest merging with directv once again, once again shut down August twenty twenty one eighty spins off track TV because the warm immediately was a disaster, but keeps seventy percent of the assets of the company April twenty twenty two spins off water media, which murder with discovery and Warner brothers discovery is born january twenty twenty four echo star once again by the dish network I don't know, man, what is the october .

twenty twenty .

four eighteen t will sell the rest of T, T, V to tpg, which will then buy dish network and merge the two together. Finally, what a disaster that is. So many billions of dollars in so many of us.

I cannot even tell you every one of those deals, thousands of people, people lost their jobs. Every one of those deals, thousands of people lost their jobs in all of our service declined. All the bankers got rich. All the layers garage. Well, what a disaster.

A budget. People in Clark, texas, the people of Clark.

texas, got ten years of free D. V.

It's only like four hundred people that live there.

And you can argue that this is all because sadi distribution, one away streaming. But this all painted nothing dish. An ecology have merged in, split and been owned by different companies like eight times.

I think ecology you just described as like four completely different entities over the course of that.

And somewhere in there, i've like to point out that they became the the relief valve for the t mobile spring deal, which reduced the amount of competition in wireless. And they have utter ly failed to stand up their fourth competitor, which was suppressed to solve the problem. What are we doing? Just why have returned? I thought about this watch. I beg of you, why do I know all this information now?

Echo targets to do IT. I just want to say my reaction to this is the the the camera that facing you right now also shows a little bit of crisis computer and he was on threats for like eighty five. Which I think is that is .

a really great time over here. I was, I was looking at, I was looking at dish.

Texas general motors tries to sell his electronics in two thousand. And somewhere in there, right, there's a little domino. The big domino one hundred percent is the four three gray skills later time.

I don't want to tell you this is such a waste. The whole thing was a waste. No one got Better service. None of their stupid ideas. cancer.

Remember, eighty was like, here's we're going to do we're going to preload everyone's android phones with blowhard and then give you many episodes of game of phones. And that's the future of mobile. I remember because I am a good reporter, I SAT in the briefing and I tried not to laugh. They're buying IT for a doll that's IT be dead in ten year.

This is why cranes .

is leave and she's like, I can't listen to this.

No two b is going to them all. It'll be fine. My flag service .

coming for him. All .

right? trans.

IT has been a joy. IT has been a joy .

and daily lovely pleasure working with you.

But there is cake. I will tell you this. One time David left, and we dressed him up as a pirate when he was leaving.

And go look that up. I was on video. yeah. So is saying a song.

And now there's an H. R. Version of our company. Now we have lot.

I will just say two things.

One, paramount plus is officially dead now, they earlier in the verge. This is that you were the last one. It's over. Good riders to pay up plus. And also, I I do have your phone number and I will be taxing you about eating for times a week. Yes, so just let me know whatever, like, you know, france, for you need for that to just yell IT else, good yell at me about, I will miss you terribly.

I miss you too.

right? That's a, that's a very chest, very naming ourselves to ecosphere as next week 不要 生 了。

And that's IT for the verge cast this way. Hey, we'd love to hear from you give us a quality six six verge one one. The verge gas is a production of the verge in box media podcast network. Our show is produced by liam James will poor and air gas, and that's IT.

We'll see next week.

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