414: ‘Annoying Friendliness’, With Joanna Stern
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I was doing a very important project in the garage. I feel like I should be giving this exclusive to the verge cast, where I have spent many hours, and in fact, I face time to rely from the garage. But fans of mine and the verge cast and my interview with rank federici will know that i've been on a month long journey to get my garage. Working with theory.

This is now that you've got, you've got to break IT here.

I want to break some news. Break this news here. Joana stern has finally gotten her garage to open by saying, and you know what i'm going to say here so everyone is listening if you have this set up IT, we'll do IT on your phone. Hey siri, open the garage.

What was the trick, can you? Yeah, no. Now you were a open in your garage. No.

I need my place idea. So it's good. I didn't do IT good.

That's why I used on the podcast. If I can think of IT. I called all of the .

various devices. Hay, dingus. You know, you got.

I watched your everyone, I want to talk about a couple of your recent videos and columns, but I watched your most recent one where you went on the weekend or was IT the weekend, I don't know, but you went on the overnight trip with a bunch of voice assistant and i'm a gun, the homework d in my office, set a timer for six minutes or whatever whatever you were.

I've heard from quite a few people that i've done that. But I wish there was a way like for the systems to know this is not a natural voice in the environment.

You should not suppose sely. I mean, i've never looked into IT because I don't even know what they do. I don't even know. And I I tried to remember to say having is myself and that as much as I can be bothered, but my understanding, and i've never that might be something you'd like to look into is like on T, V commercials, on sports.

A lot they are the apple will have a commercial and they'll say, just ask theory something, something and thell y'll demo IT and IT doesn't set off devices and that i've there some kind of like trick with the modulation. Humans can hear IT, but the devices don't know. Like a frequency thing for that recording. I don't know. I can't be bothered right.

right? I mean, and there were something recently, some headlined about that, that they were working on something deeper around that. But anyway, I can get into the details. OK. Okay.

I could. No.

no IT. It's more that everyone will stop listening to the podcast if I go through the details. IT is such a technical dict ous really nh nh issue.

But let's just say top line and I should write this and maybe maybe johna youll let me write IT for for daring fireball and pretty sure no other one, no other place. Maybe I could do a red thread, or you just do a red thread about how I did this. All bottom line is chamblin, which owns all the garages, downtown ers, lift master, lift gate, whatever all of them are has become really entry.

Anything else other than its my q APP, which is what you use to open the garage through their digital platforms and they just don't like anything else. And so you have to buy a third party adapter, a third party accessory that is basically a hacked together small module that works with all of this stuff. And I bought this mirror accessory, which nei suggested that a few other people on this world have suggested, as we've been going over this in the last couple of weeks, thread, let's thank you to all the people and threads share who share their seps.

Anyway, I had to get an accessory, but then, because I have a lift master version that is really anti working with anything is just completely closed down. I had get another accessory to have an accessory for my accessory. This is all to say. IT finally works, and now I have to do some, some clean up and some rewiring in the garage. But I am very proud of myself today.

Sounds like an accomplishment. Yeah, I couldn't remember the name. I know that are. No, we do have a garage. We actually even we live in the city. We we actually have a car as, but we didn't want a two car garage. We only have one car, but we have a two car garages and it's we do have a lift master, but we don't use IT enough.

I guy don't even i've never tried to hook IT up to home home kit if I drove all the time, I drive me nuts, but it's such a hassle. But I know that this is one of those weird things like when we talk about anti trust lately, is everybody is whether it's technology like us or even people in the outside media world looking at a lot of from a political perspective, they're looking at the big tech companies. And for good reason, they are so huge financially and in terms of people's daily lives that, of course, they're going to get the scrutiny. But in some of these little niche industries where it's absurd and like I don't think you can buy a modern garage door opener that isn't from one of the companies from chamblin. I mean.

you you cannot I have looked to deep into IT and none of them support home kit or google assistance or even like me, i've got this in integration with the I Q P and amazon, but it's it's just completely on user friendly and they they think their APP is the ultimate and IT is not.

It's like if you found out that that general motors also owns ford hana toyo, ta unlike how is that possible and then none of them want to support car play or android daughter or something like that, you know and the whole thing you've covered, would you had the ford CEO on steering .

finally like every day? Yeah, it's my .

best friend. But IT really is like the gm t strategy that they're taking of, hey, we're gonna move away from the car play type stuff and make our we're gonna endeavor to make our own home built console entertainment system so good that you won't even miss IT, which is the technique that tesla and riva have taken um and in some sense, IT is competition at work where if car play really is important to you, you can go to a car dealer and they and say, hey, does this car i'm looking at the car play and if that's a deal break ker for you.

You can tell the sales person and the sales person will save. You know, I lost the sale because this car doesn't support car play. It's competition to work because you can just go across the street and buy a car from another company that supports IT. But when it's one company like this chamblin that owns all the garage door openers and they've decided they're going to do their own member with with apple pay, when there was the big the current .

current sea of the currency where .

you'd have the convenience of scanning A Q R code on a piece of paper at the check out every time you wanted to pay. And it's like competition actually works ideally. You know, I know IT doesn't always work and is always exceptions, but when one company owns everything, IT really does break down.

Although I think and I think one of the I think nine to five mac was reporting in and somewhere maybe it's been confirmed that home depot, which is been one of the last hold outs on mobile payment and apple pay because I believe I I need to go back to what I was reporting on like ten years ago, which was that currency thing, but I believe they were gna beyond that trend or with that protocol. But home depot has apparently decided to go apple pay, and that is a game changer in my life.

And I happened to know that because I write about IT that home depot, I don't know if if they're related or what the level of separation is. But in canada, home depot has supported apple pay for a long time. There are some kid north american divide between canada and america. And the last time I wrote about IT at during fireball, i've got a couple of emails, es on people saying, I don't know what you're talking about. I go to home people all the time and apple pay just works and I write back and I say, i'll bet you live in canada and they're like, how did you know and I like because you like.

I watch you yeah either watching you go to home deeper in canada, that's all right now. I mean, I go to home deeper a lot, as as you can tell, very interested in my garage and so very often there but my kids love IT and that IT is annoying in that IT does not take apple pay yeah and I often .

at this point I ve thought about IT and written about IT enough that I remember. But I can't tell how many times I get to the check out. Like in the garden center, something like that where it's like your you're practically in the garden center, you can see your car, it's right there, you're already outside and you're just like let me pay and IT doesn't work and .

out ah put your stuff down and I have had people that the employees of hum deep say you should write to the company and it's like me to the company is that .

can help no but you could. This is where like being especially you with your purch where you're like, you know what I know you want to get into what I could do.

Yes, yes. right? exactly. exactly. Is I could write to the company I couldn't fact. Anyway, thank you for giving me this time and space to talk about theory and my garage.

You one of the other companies that's like that, that owns like more brands and you think and I always forget how to pronounce your name, is the glass company that owns riband look exact and you .

think .

about him like gray band is especially in our beat. And I know you were just wearing them on your trip like with the .

ray and wearing and all up right now, how do you think I capturing opening my garage.

of course but they own you that I actually am a fan of riband uh sunglasses and glasses frames but they own a million brands of glasses. Is is crazy like when you go into to buy a new paradise glasses, what percentage chance you I think especially sung asses, like they own all these brands that you think of. Our rivals are all own by oxo. Da, there are not rivals. They're all part of the same company.

And I think you've go into like a landcraft ters, ninety percent of those are those brands .

yeah because they do kind of rotten anti competitive things because of their market share where it's like, yes, sure. Why not you give us how about ninety five percent year shelf space if you want any of our glasses and it's like, uh, that that seems I ought to be illegal and they're like.

sorry, they own landsat rafters.

No, that's IT yeah, that's IT yeah.

Which is doesn't .

see like IT should be right.

And in fact they also own sunglass height.

Yes, exactly. See what I mean. So when you go to sunglass, you don't even have the option of buying glasses .

from a brand that they also own perl vision at which .

they didn't always right that, that was like an acquisition at some point as they built up this arsenal of both the brands that make the high and glasses and the stores where you buy glasses, which present themselves as being sort of oh, you just go to pro vision to get your eyes checked and you get a prescription. And you choose from all these brands. And instead, it's all sort of a like when you go in the apple store and everything is from apple except for a couple of bulk and charges charges, you're not surprised.

no. But anyway, everyone should go read lizza tics with a pedia pages, as it's fascinating.

But before we get into IT here, I got a new demio on the show.

You hear that that sounds like a real one.

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Work O S. It's how to spell exactly how you think that come. You want to start with your weekend adventure you wanted start with the federal I interview did lighting classmates.

I guess they kind of an interact in samples.

Yes, they do. I think because I think this is actually a very theater episode. The show, yeah, to be honest, and IT fits with the you know as we've head towards the end of twenty twenty four IT is the year of A I and I think next year is going to continue that. I don't really think it's a fat IT is there's some real there there unlike let's say, I don't know that crypto in general, but those nf, right you .

think we could even diverse in there?

Yeah metaverse yeah everybody's got even matter. The company that would David itself does dog matter anymore.

We can say that, that was just a nice hype trend of I don't know.

Let let's just start with the most recent one. You, I loved IT IT is such a perfect joana stern video. You you took one overnight was IT one one day.

twenty one overnight. Yeah, we ran on the premise.

Well, I would .

people been wondering like why I did that. So let me let me start with the premise of and and he's featured in the video. But mustapha solemn, who is now the C E. O of microsoft ai and overseas copilot, they were kind of the last on the train to release voice bots or voice capabilities to add to their chat bott.

And so copilot came out with that, I believe in early october um when I was interviewing him, he was pretty clear and he was very clear in the video in the column I wrote this past week, which is this is a new generation of relationships and I kept saying like a relationship with the computer but he kind of kept wanting to go further in that to say that this is a new type of companionship and friendship and hearing the word friendship with bees just kind of kept making me think about, what would I do to test friends? What would I do with friends? And so gr strip IT made total sense.

I was gna take my robot friends, my boat friends, the voices of made A I, which they also came out with, within the last months or two, a slew voices, celebrity voices that you can use an instagram WhatsApp messenger eeta with, met a AI. So you've had bet. I had copilot.

I had ChatGPT with advances, voice mode. And then I had, what was my last one, google gi there, a google gi, which came out in the end of August and just this week, came to IOS with the geri a. And so I strapped them all to A A tripod thing for phones, decided didn't needed ahead, because obviously I just didn't look right.

Head wig put in the car, drove up, brought a wonderful producer, David hall, and reporting assistant, cordia James. And we we just spent twenty four hours in this cabin, mostly me just talking to these things. We have.

So we recorded so much footage, our, we have ten hours of footage, at some point strong out about me talking to these boss because that's what they they are, their voices, you're supposed to have conversations with them. They have very arbitrary limits about when you can kind of start like I did hit the limit with ChatGPT, ChatGPT will say, sorry, you ve talked to this thing enough with you. You can you can keep you advances voice mode. But that happens like, I would say, six hours .

and we had account.

and so we kept going. So that was the premise. I just I sort of that, okay, whether some things I can put you through the test. And as you can see the video, we built a fire together. David produce producer really thought I would be hilarious if I learned at a chop wood. I was like, maybe just the hatchet on the the branches is fine and you know, try to have some serious conversations with these these bots and that didn't go as well. But IT was all and all the very, very fun I opening experience.

I had my favorite part and you seemed genuinely I I don't know how he was the first take or what, but you seem genuinely blown away was when they started talking to each other about movies. I think, no.

jillian flin novl.

yes. yeah. That's novels, which was.

I think I was so verse all, they started talking to each other because you all have new button. So i'd knew, like, okay, i've got to use this one to test this one and keep muting. And that was in the beauty of having the tripod set up.

But I have left them all on muted. And I don't know how they started getting on this topic of books. But again, the fact was I try to like, programme them to be not programmed.

But I wanted this to be a girls trip. I set them to all have female voices. IT was IT was definitely stereotyping their right. And then they all start talking about pretty woman. Men would read these books too.

But like, you know, this is is a pretty popular year among women and they all start talking about Julian flan and gone girl and this genre of books. And i'm just like dying and I tried to like talk and get my words in and they won't let me in and IT. I mean, I guess that was kind of a human experience because I often feel .

that way people don't let me talk IT reminds me of like when I first got into computers, when I was really Young. And I mean, everybody did this in my generation, like even every time I went to came out, i'd go to the computer sixty four display unit and type ten print cart socks. Twenty goes to ten run and then IT runs the infinite loop is I mean apple named their first campus infinite loop.

It's it's just a fascinating concept that to to A A mind that strong to computers, it's just kind of beautiful. But hooking up two machines to do something where they will never stop doing IT to each other IT, it's satisfying in a weird way. I don't know.

I think partly it's just like a neat technical trick and part of IT is reassuring. Even going back forty years to ninety eighties, come to sixty four in an infinite loop. It's a way of asserting the r humanity versus their machines like a human is never going to get tricked into an infinite loop, right? You can trick people for a long time, and it's kind of funny in a practical joke kind of way, but eventually they're just going to pass out or something, where is you get computers talking to each other?

They'll never stop. They never to stop. And we saw that.

I mean, IT beautiful, but it's also amazing to just watch where they're go because these large language matters. Their the basically program to never not have an answer. They're not even programmed.

They just never not have an answer. IT is they will always come up with something. And that's part it's like the most charity of friends that you kind of just you just needed to give me a one line answer, but you gave me four paragraphs.

And in that case, they just will keep keep going. There was another instance where one of them started talking about, I don't know, must have been maybe something in the memory of germany ee or something based on me, but I wanted to talk about writing an essay about E V. charging. And if they just all kind of kept going, not all because I was got one of them, would copilot specifically would get confused by this all but three of them would got, keep going, keep, keep, keep going.

You mentioned this. What was the phrase I think I wrote? IT down, annoying, friendly, this. And I in two words I can summarize my that that might be my single biggest frustration with all of them is and part of its me, you know me I mean my personality i'm a little the I come on.

I don't need the overly friendly stuff, but I think anybody gets tired of IT because it's clearly phony. Everybody knows that these are computers. And to me, this sort of annoying, friendless ss that is clearly programmed into these things is I I find IT.

This taste is if every, every food offered, like if you go on a resort or a cruse ship or something where you you don't have options and everything is desert, and I get first, the kid da knew there is a part of you that is, oh, it's a friendly computer. That's amazing. This kind of funny.

And as a kid, you might think like a week of nothing but Candy and and cookies and ice cream would be great. You get physically sick up for a while. And it's like mentally, it's like this fake cheapness IT just is so overly sweet.

It's like the mental equivalent of my teeth. I I feel like i've getting cavities. And I just want I wish that and they don't have this is the thing that really gets me is they don't have a way to turn that off.

They don't they should have a friendly ess dial and and should just be like you should be able to set that. And I think, like I said, the annoying, friendly inss common in in the context of that, these companies have to build trust with us with these pots, right? We've got ta feel comfortable asking IT about cooking, but also a major life change, whatever that spectrum looks like. You've to feel like I can can fight in this thing and i'm going na trust that IT says something that smart and you need to feel comfortable to do that. But like some people are just asking for cooking instructions or every time I like open IT up IT doesn't need to get me like i'm the queen of england.

I don't know yeah and it's like sometimes I really do just want a button on on screen alert. I just want a button that just as okay if there's no other option, I just want to want to just says OK, OK, OK or cancel and it's like again, I just want to hate OK. I don't want like a button that says, hey, good, good to see you again, john do IT.

But and it's not just give me OK, I would really love to turn the personality the off on these things and just get flat answers. And I there's a part of me that thinks like is that when we first started talking to these things at all, like when syria came out twenty ten or twenty eleven and whatever the year was, IT was more like that. And I we all know what these companies are thinking.

They are thinking this is a disruption to society that are you can have a with your computer now. And we want to make this, as I don't know, as as seamless or not seamless, but is acceptable as possible or as non threatening as possible. And right? And I find the fake, friendless ss, in a weird way, is actually a little more disturbing. And maybe.

and that's why I finally got with some of this too, which is with, given what had happened with the the boy who had committed suicide, and there's information about how he had been chatting with character A I leading up to the that and all these other types of boats are being built for loneliness and companionship. I think that's where this is just a disguise, right? The friendly ess and the personality is a disguise for code and just a computer yeah.

And sometimes I really wish I could turn IT down and just get the code and just I don't wanted to actually, I kind of would me person, I if if there were a dial for like sarcastic and I know if anybody's trying to do IT for that. I know it's the X A I that elon making and i'm glad someone's trying to do other than pure sacer and friendliness, but it's like I do not share elon musk sent of humor at at all and what they think is biting sarcasm to me is is also not funny at all. This is not my my vector of sarcasm, but at least they're trying something a little different.

But I would know and that's like the sarcasm thing. Obviously I am dry and sarcastic and there's this moment in the video too where I I can't believe we captured exit IT like flub dry IT made a ChatGPT flubs and said how the fire making you feel and I was like a, you know and I thought that was hilarious, like if you was like human, you'd be like, you would laugh at somebody dies like the way they put or something as and I say back to IT fire make me feel good and i'm cracking up. I can't like really bite my tongue. I'm cracking up and you can hear my producer or cracking up and IT like, doesn't get IT right like, and I just but he gets the laughter like IT IT picks up laughter so IT knows that you are there's human laughter and so IT somewhere in there it's and I just went, haha.

it's just worse. It's just worse. And I do find that funny now that i've been doing this for so long and just not just professionally, but just going back to being ten years old and way computers were then and and like, I see all of this progress and more than any other industry, the computer industry is why I I continue to love following IT and doing what I do is that it's still moving so fast and things are changing so far.

And you get all of these examples over the decades of things that had previously only been imagined in science fiction and other real right. I mean, just the fact that we have, I mean, IT comes up all the time, but the things that are iphones and are all modern smart phones can do in our pocket are just flour castings. Ly, amazing in science fiction.

I mean, video calls like what you and I are doing right now to have this conversation used to be science fiction, and we could be doing IT on our phones over the air. It's all amazing, but it's always so interesting to me, like the thing I I, the thing I always think of first is how one that becomes real. What IT first is amazing and then settles in.

And everybody, nerds and non nerds, are like, IT just becomes a part of life, right? I mean, and things that happened a century ago are like that running water is is a water a marvel of technology? I often say, like if we could time travel, bring ben Franklin to the modern day, and you want to take him to the airport and show me airplanes, you want to show me the internet and google search and ChatGPT, I think just getting him to stop raving about being able to take A P in the middle the night indoors and hit a button.

And IT just goes away to give a couple of days to absorb the toilet and running water, because it's just amazing. Yeah, IT settle in. We just take IT for granted. But I think that another way of looking back is how the science fiction writers who imagine IT got IT wrong.

And it's like one thing is everybodies imagine talking robots and talking A I, whether they are humanoids robots like c three P O who walk around or like how nine thousand from two thousand one which is a lot closer to yeah to the modern A I. The one thing you know could is the way that how isn't a robot who moves around but is everywhere on the ship, and it's the same how you're talking to in the place where the pod by doors are, as in IT, the living room area or whatever. Nobody imagined these fake, friendly attitudes. nobody. How how is what I want? I want a little bit personality, but mostly just sort of flat and just the facts.

I'm gonna honest with you. I don't, I don't even i've never watched most of these science fiction movies. Every time I try to, I fall asleep.

But I think so much of what you just hit on is so is so right. I think especially the parts where we we are amazed by IT and then we just take IT for granted. And actually, that is something I don't have the exact quote from here.

But when I interviewed crag fetter a few months ago, weeks ago, I don't know what data about apple intelligence, and I really was trying to go after, why a theory like this? Where is the theory improvements? I was really hitting him on theory.

He really did back up and and really wanted me. And I think he even was thinking about how far theory has come. And we got used to IT, right, right? We started like to want more and more.

I want to pull up the quote because he, he obviously said IT so eloquently. But I think, yes. And now even so, with these boat, like you hit a wall, right? You, we hit a wall with theory. And alexa and I say that in the color we hit a wall, we now know we can say, what do you call IT?

dingus?

yeah. Can say, hey, dingus. Set the think. Just do this right.

We've all learned the very strict formulas of how to do those things. We've had to talk to talk in their way. We hit a wall with that.

So now we have these bots. We are now hitting another wall with that. I don't know if I think that they can change the friendly ess and they can there's probably a lot that can be done there. But then you hit this wolf like IT sounds really believable, but it's it's just still a computer like .

there's .

more you can do and I will walk you through these things and more personable, friendly way. And IT is smarter but you also will hit this wall um .

and it's I I I only I the fake personality, the fake friends I just never would have guessed IT but now that I hear it's all of but I see IT as of course they're doing IT this week because they think it's nonthreatening and they realized that people are going to feel threatened by the weird dance of this and and then I think IT also sets in with everybody else is doing IT this way. So we should do nobody wants to stick out and just sort of put out a more, much more robotic personality type, which I I think after the novelty wears off, people would settle in.

be joy Better.

right?

yeah. And here's and this is what he said, he said, but as humans are expectations for what that means to use our voice to communicate and ask for things is almost unbounded, which is like this. We start to ask, and we start to feel more conversational rights.

So we've gone from the like. We know the formulaic. Now we're in this moment with with large language minors where we were able to talk more or like yourself.

I mean, that was kind of also the amazing thing of being away with these things were twenty four hours. You don't prompted. You just like, oh, let's do a thing, a yoga picks them.

Let's make a yoga routine for me. Let's do IT now, right? Like you don't talk to you Normally. And so I guess if the end point is hell or whatever, that dream robot that is our partner and maybe friend, we're going to keep hitting walls.

It's like there's our internal monologue in own brains, but nobody you know that everybody's is our own. And the next level of communication is speech is the oldest part of evolution. Literacy is a thing and there are human beings to our illiterate who cannot read the right.

But there's unless you have like some kind of disability, everybody can speak and it's kind of amazing. It's IT really is one of those things really like oh, that is kind of amazing that people of who are really, really not very intelligent at all, just naturally on their own learn to speak as babies and. What do you do when you speak? You communicate your thoughts.

And your thoughts are for whatever your level of intelligence for you. They're unbounded and you just speak. And so speaking to computer IT is it's a really interesting observation by there really is no limit and it's you and I are, in fact, professional writers.

We try to be, but it's I feel you and I are at the higher end of aptitude for expressing ourselves through writing. But for most human beings of whoever you do, wherever you live in the world, whatever you however you are, communicating yourself by speech is the most natural thing in the world. And so interfacing with computers that way is very, very different than pushing buttons or typing commands.

It's just a complete, it's like a removal of abstraction. IT is a level of abstraction. But we we're evolutionary hooked up not to think of IT is as being abstract.

You mentioned like the you know, I think I was a fourteen year old in australia who recently was found to have gotten obsessed with a game of throne's constructed character in IT said all all cases of tea, all tragedies, and there are way too many people who, in the midst of depression, turn the suicide with. IT always been true. IT still is true.

And they're used to not even be chat pots. And now that there are chat pots, somebody who's in the midst of an episode like this that might have, and probably would have been just as depressed, if not more so, without any access to chat pots, got obsessed chat pots. And now that's the headline.

The same thing with self driving cars, where how many people die in all human driven correct cars and vehicles per day in the us. IT is one of those things that once technology solves IT, people are going to look back at twenty twenty four today and see are driving culture and the number of deaths. And for all the deaths, all of the good, some injuries that people don't die and thankfully, and recover from as barberry IT is really, really strange histories.

How we've just, and one of those things that we've just accepted, you know, we mean you and every most of the people listening to this were all born in our culture in north america. We just accept IT is the way the world works, but it's really weird and gruesome. And self driving cars are way out of that.

And but the problem is there are still going to be some accidents, especially getting from here where, well, we're already at a point where some cars were self driving, but getting from the point where all cars were human driven to a future where all cars are either self driving robotically or have systems in place to prevent collisions. And we're seeing that where you can be like not paying attention. And if you get within a certain proximity of the car in front of you, the car breaks itself.

And fantastic, fantastic tic lifesaving features. And even at a lesser degree at lower speed, just nobody was going to get hurt. But thank that.

I didn't read that guy because I wasn't paying attention and avoid just the minor irritation of a funder bender. But the problem is that doesn't matter which branded is. But of course, if it's tesla, IT brings in all this other political baggage and personality baggage of a elon musk.

But one accident that killed somebody with a self driving car is the man bites dog headline, right? It's oh, there IT is but meanwhile there's ten thousand other people who die. I don't know what but its numbers like that every month in human driven cars. And I think there's that sort of effect with these chat .

bots one hundred percent and and looked like there's also a big difference between the chat box that I and I try to make this point in the piece in the video and the column. Big difference between the smaller started a character A I, which didn't seem to have many protections in at all in the APP, for if somebody y's using words that like suicide or killing themselves to provide more information versus what I saw here.

I tried to test that with all of these, and they're all providing hot lines or talking at saying talk to a real human. So there's certainly also a lot that can be done on the product side. I don't want to say like always answers and product is an add, and I don't think but this we've got we've got a lot of forces and you could talk about lots of forces that um play into all of this horrible ness.

But I I agree with you, I don't think we we should hope that up as as the not now. And by the way, I IT sounded to me like in that case, he was also typing IT was a text base chat. IT wasn't voice though, character, A I and a few of these.

Do you have the voice based stuff? But that makes IT more realistic and human. I mean, it's just if there's no double that. I had formed an image, especially have met as met A A I I gave the Christian bell voice to to IT.

And because I just, I love Christian bell and is like I made to be hanging out with Christian bell all day, and I have an image of that in my head is not just a chatbot, right? Like there is something of a to say, species. There's something more there than than just, oh, I was testing with a computer.

Yeah, yeah. IT tickles a lower lizard part of your brain. I guess lizard don't really talk to each other. But you know what I mean, older, very old, evolutionary, when we first started to communicate with our voices, part of our brains, where, when you hear the voice of a loved one IT IT sets off endorphins in your brain.

If you just happened to run into your kid accidentally, you were out about and your kids school group happens to be where you are and you hear your kids voice as well and it's like, you know your brain like kind of lights up in a funny way. You just when you hear like a friend, do you haven't seen a while, they just happen to be in the same store as you and you hear their voice and it's like ool or when you see somebody's face, you recognize IT and you have a reaction. It's not voluntary.

It's it's in voluntary and you don't get that I mean, weird like me can get IT from like type faces or something but even there, even for someone who's obsessed with something like that, oh, this book has a real I love this fun i'm going makes me a little more likely to buy IT. It's still not the same as when I see the face of a loved one or something like that. It's we're hooked up for that and computers have never had that before yeah and .

now they .

do kind of kind of for, right. And if that's the other thing that science fiction didn't really imagine, it's like science fiction always gives us the finished product rate. And again, even if you haven't watch two thousand and one, how it's the red eye and see three P O, it's like, but that nobody ever imagined like, hey, what was IT like the first year where they had this technology, where you could talk to them and IT was, and it's so different than I think anybody would have imagined IT to be.

It's because if you think about IT superficially from the perspective of a science fiction writer twenty, thirty, forty or more years ago, you start thinking like, well, maybe because it's the early days, they can only understand three or four things or something, because I do IT superficially that seems like a good way to get IT going. But no, it's there's they'll answer anything. They're answer questions about anything.

And there, at times, incredibly amazing and knowledgeable and give you these helpful answers, and then at other times, are more stupid than any person you've ever even father them. You know, like when google turned on the AI in research and was giving really funny answers to how many rocks should I eat on a daily basis, right? which?

Or had to grow up the cheese on pizza.

like, yes should yes.

They're just engineer to be confident.

right? And IT takes a human being at the moment to come up with a question, like how many rock should I eat a day to trick the LLM based A I into giving a funny answer because it's a nonsensical question in a way, right?

right?

There's a you probably haven't seen IT given what you said about science fiction movies, the movie blade runner from nineteen and eighty two, I believe spoiler here but there's the whole premise of the movie is the Harrison ford plays a blade runner who is a police detective whose job IT is to hunt down replica. Republicans are robots who look like humans.

And so you they have skin and completely visually look and talk like humans, but they're fake underneath. And the ones who get out and are illegally out about, you have to identify them. And there's a thing called the void comp test.

Where is a series of questions that the police can ask? And you give twenty questions and a replicant is going to get tricked up by some of them. And it's a really good scene in the movie is everybody who's watched is one of the most memorable parts of the movie.

But the type of questions they ask are much more thoughtful and cool and interesting, and they're not. How many rocks should do you eat today, right? Like IT. Turns out at our current moment, the way to figure out if you're chatting with an AI is to ask a nonsense question yeah not a deep philological question.

It's true. Well, i'm making a list of all the movies I need to watch.

right? Blade, and I put you to sleep. I love IT, but and and looks good.

But a lot of times i'll start. I've started a lot of these movies. I .

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And by using that, you are, although no, you came from the show and you the listener who's signing up will save ten percent of your first purchase of a website or domain. And you get thirty days free just by going there to start, thirty days to start, build the whole website whole month. You can build IT out, use IT, turn IT on, go life makes sure you like IT and only after the thirty days are up you need to pay just go to school space to com slash talk show. You did not include theory in your your girls trip.

I didn't.

And the reason why was so fully you said, siri, can you introduce yourself to get, I guess, be role for the of syria introducing itself? And serious answer was just a confirm. Do you want to turn .

this device off? Yeah, I was. I was. I was looking for a moment to just have that like a sound's like theory having a basic answer, but siri knew exactly how to write itself into the script.

I'm sorry there because I said, syria now .

i've got device.

And but I noticed back at W B D C, when apple unveiled the whole apple intelligence array features and they said IT, that with this new interface that came out with IOS eighteen point one last month, where the new theory gets this, all new visual interface were like, let's to speak about the phone, where when you invoke IT, you get a whole new visual face where the the, the border of the screen lights up, in theory, rainbow of colors.

And you can they, they, in a typical apple fashion, IT made IT seem like it's nothing but great, which is that you can continue a conversation. So you could say, having us, who did the bottom ravens play last week and the siri will give an answer and and while it's still up, you can say who did they, who did they play the week before and siri and theory should know we're still talking about the bottoming ravens or whatever IT was and then give you an answer from the week before. But then once you're done and that syria interface goes off, then you're starting over each time.

And so the continuing ing context in a session is IT definitely Better than the way siri used to be. But the fact that IT forgets everything by design each time you started up is very different from these other chat pots. And I think that alone would have ruled IT out from inclusion in your girls A I weekend, right?

Well, I think it's also the like image just testing something using apple and intelligence to just to see I was been testing eighteen that two and wanted to see about the ChatGPT immigration. And if when you do start talking to theory, if it's gna really start to draw on ChatGPT and IT really doesn't no.

i'm i've been running eighteen point two pretty much since the first data too.

and IT doesn't. Yeah I mean, and that's supposed to start happening.

I'm finding in my testing of chain point to that, uh, I don't mind that this ChatGPT integration is there, but i'm finding that it's kind of if I weren't there, my opinion of the overall thing would hardly be different IT, really. And I don't know if that's because leading up to wwdc, I mean, there was a lot of reporting.

Mark german, of course, the king of the rumor reporting in apple world, had a bunch of stories leaving up to wb dc, suggesting that the deal with OpenAI didn't really get finalized until the last minute or or close to the last minute band. Apple said at W, B, T, C that there will be or could be future partners like google in the future that you could switch from using ChatGPT as your answer questions. Syria alone can't partner to german I or something else.

Here's, I think happening. You go keep to finish your sentence. And well.

i'm just saying I think they built IT so that if they had zero partners, if that's just the way that worked out for this year, that would still be we can still tell people buy these things for apple intelligence. And I think I think IT shows.

But I think what's happening is specifically in eighteen at two because us like why wouldn't theory fit into this? And I think the main reason is that theory does not have a strong large language model component to, like, be conversational, right? And that, see, my interview with crag, we went deep on that, and he definitely hinted at.

He didn't hint. He just said, is that where this is going? Of course, we've gotta figure out kind of the right parts to put that together. And so because he was very clear, this is the garage example, he was very clear right now, siri does the garage IT does IT very well.

But what we don't want is siri to go off and not do the that thing very well, so they have to figure out the right way. And that, to me, made a lot of sense. You have billions of users using this thing gotto.

Make sure that you can do the thing everyone realized on IT for, but then also be able to go and do the advanced thing. One thing though, that I think is happening right now in theory, so like I just asked theory, give me some good recipes for me. Balls, I don't know.

I I always go to meals as I like, go to test of IT, right? And IT searched the web and found that and gave me, like, the little pop up that has that. I tried a couple of things, and I didn't bring up ChatGPT. But when I asked you to write a poem about john gruber, IT did. He asked me.

yes.

what happened to the pom? 好吧， but IT also went away. Nice screen. yes.

It's clearly by design, and I think partly to cover up for limitations and neuron system, but also partly because they don't want to even get into that now like the permanent memory of your interactions with the service. They really want that blank slate each time you bring that up.

I've gona asking me to do IT again. But I think that what's happening is that there's a very specific types of prompts where IT right a poem or whatever the other ones are that they're saying, hey, let's go to ChatGPT for that. But then for some other things where a large language model could be useful, it's not doing that. And I also wonder if I had asked you to write a poem about john ruber and I was doing IT because i'm doing IT by text right now. If i'd done IT verbally, would IT read IT back to me?

I don't know. Probably not. If you do that, if you text IT IT text the answer, right?

I have found myself, I, I, I don't care enough about these things to use them all. And so i've sort of gone all in with ChatGPT. And I mainly also, I like the answers.

I think the four oo model is probably the best or closest to the best for the sort of things i'm using IT for. But I really love their mac APP. The ChatGPT mac APP is by far away the best macintosh APP for any of these pots.

And I use IT.

It's just a really well engineer mac APP. It's not an electron thing that's a wrapper for their website. It's a really good fast with a great interface. And it's interesting that IT has your whole history with IT because I have i'm logged in and I have a ChatGPT account and I pay ten box a month for whatever.

And there was A I don't n of if it's a meme or what but like thing a couple days ago where people are saying to ask ChatGPT or ask any of these things to make a picture. How do you imagine a typical day in my life? yeah.

And I don't think ChatGPT knows a lot about me, but I imagine the picture I got IT didn't have a lot. Some of the people's pictures have so much in a mine was like, of course, all the rooms look ideal. IT was sort of a rusting, lots of wood, a big leather, old leather couch, which is kind of me, like, if i'm onna, have a cat, don't have a couch in my office, but if I did, I probably would have a leather one.

And I like an old looking leather couch, a typewriter on a desk, not a computer, but a typewriter. And some, not a lot. In real life, i've probably got more crapper around my office, but some books and papers on the floor and I am kind of a mess.

And I do one of my my one of my very favorite most use things that I asked ChatGPT is when it's like my super powered the stores, either I know i'm looking for a certain word and I can't think of IT or I want a Better version of the word i'm always asking ChatGPT for either specific I can think of or like a Better word than the one i'm thinking of and IT it's it's amazing at how good IT is at IT. It's so good at IT. And so based on that, that kind of knows i'm a writer and kinds, some seemingly knows i'm a little scattered that I do research, then build up piles of books and there lots and lots of books in in my imagine ChatGPT world.

this, this is the permitted right about you. Now I finally got to working again. John gruber, with wisdom, keen in the world of tech, he's often seen with markdowns, elegance and Grace, his thought and code, find their place and not gonna ep going on.

That's pretty good though.

Yeah, that's pretty good. Okay, my image of that ChatGPT did of my world, which was pretty funny. I am, I tried a few of them, but I posted on threads. IT thinks I, and it's not wrong, but IT IT must think I am truly like the worlds leader of the cub scouts. I don't know what that's call like outing america.

They ve changed the name .

to scouting america.

S and girls .

separate my son. My seven year old did just join the cub scouts and so I have been using IT a lot because it's complicated that the cruz and like, please explain to me, i've been asking about dense verse packs, have been asking about what are the the different than names or what are the different pack names and the cub scouts and their wolves, and there's bears, and there's this.

And so IT really took that to heart so that everyone I generated, i'm like, i've got cubs scout, perfect everywhere. I've got patches. I've got kids in the background with cub scouts, and I guess at some point I also asked about basketball. I want to say at some point I was asking about the best way to get a basketball hope into cement, because that was something I was struck like I used IT a lot for home stuff.

and I send you a picture of mine I should posted on social media. And i'll put, I put links years from threads.

I mean, this is a beautiful home that you have here from that early, I don't know. One thousand .

twenty eight. Well, IT is you know what though you know what's funny is in the early years of daring firebomb um you know I started to in two thousand four and there weren't youtube wasn't a thing and i'm never really done much video and podcasts weren't yet the thing so all people new me by, I was the writing and I didn't put a picture of myself on the site. And I started going to things like W, B, dc or mac world expo.

And people would meet me for the first time. And I mean, like dozens of times, people would just say, oh, I thought you were really old. And at the time was like, twenty years ago, I was only, I don't know, like thirty, so I wasn't really old at all. And they, I thought you were like, old. Somehow ChatGPT seems to have the same impression .

of me standing written voice.

I guess I guess it's it's .

not just your time is .

a manual type yeah I also I also enjoy that there's a map on the wall of mine and it's it's like a nonsense map, but it's not a real place.

You have a lot of plants. Yeah yeah I mean, I like really you said I just sent you mind but you can see i've i've got the boy scout. I've got basketball and thinks I love bangles. I don't know about the bill .

peace um oh yeah see that years years is really years are very very uh jam .

act with look they they packed and I love that little safari ah compass they gave me on the .

first one yes oh the first one.

Look at that safari compass .

on the table no yeah yeah I see IT it's like like A.

I mean, if and now i'm like, I want that. I the cosco, I wanted safari.

Yeah, they've definitely got you as being like the scouting mom.

I mean, but I was very appropriate because that week I had obviously asked a lot about, yes, but my life is I wish, I mean, I don't wish I was as involved that the boys scouts, this things I am. But in .

the second one, that you've actually got a boy scouts framed .

logo on the watch yeah.

And also in that second one, you've got a wood grain sign on the wall big with your name on.

yes, I love myself. I love my self. I love basketball.

Apparently I you have an imac, not a, you know, you have an imac on a desk and a laptop on your lap and another like .

a stability attached keyboard.

So you've got a lot of computers. I don't have any. But well, but just .

going back to the the ChatGPT integration, I think look, I think there's something there about how apples thinking about how much they obviously, we know that, that they've taken some they wanted to minimize some of the risk and they also what if we want to say they're behind or how whatever the reason is, they're being cautious about how they roll this out.

And so theyve use ChatGPT and potentially some whatever whatever partners they can to plug into theory. Eventually, as crag said in that interview, we will see a theory that has more large language model capability and can converse and can likely do a lot of what we've already been seeing from these other bots that I went to the cabin with is, is they're they're just not it's just not comparable right out. And look, we're going to see this from alex. A I mean, amazon has been delaying and delaying, but that that's onna come soon too. So I have no other choice .

because IT is conspiring. And I thought of that with you. I thought of IT just earlier on the show when you were trying to remember all four of the anions who you took with you that I think german, I was the one the fourth of that you couldn't take up. But IT does stand out.

which they are not forgettable.

We're not talking about amazon at this point. We're clearly they're working on IT. And I think amazon is sort of taking amazon and apple are the two can say where does, but exceptions. They're doing things in very different ways from the others. And apples is let's be very deliberate and slow but will start with very simple stuff.

So like when I S eighteen point one came out, which is the only non beta version of apple intelligence that anybody out there listening has IT doesn't even do much, right? There's not even that much to IT. It's got like the writing tools doesn't do any of the image generation stuff. They're releasing stuff, but it's like a little bit of time. And I get the feeling that amazon, rather than release a little bit at a time, is sort of holding back and they're going to come out with a big thing that wants I don't know, I could be wrong.

And I think you know as much as there was some controversy, I feat that controversy. But like when apple intelligence launched a few weeks ago, there were many people on the side of apples layed. They're behind.

They're clearly behind. There's reporting that shows they are behind. That was one camp and there's the camp which I don't didn't actually take a stand on in my piece.

IT was mostly leaning on greg who was saying we're doing this to be deliberate. We're deliberately being slow. We want to get IT right. We're doing IT all right, because we have a response sibling. Probably some place in the my opinion is that some place in middle of those things.

But when you think about apple and amazon, specific mean the two big assistance that people make fun of and talk about the most, our syrian alex, a yeah google assistant as well. But I think, to a lesser degree, they have the most writing on IT, right? If people wake up and alexa can't do the basic things, lisa can turn on the lights or start doing those things in a ridiculous, crazy way, people are going to freak hello.

yeah, the me, we haven't hooked up to do real things.

to do real and talk about the garage if the garage just doesn't do the thing, or alex is not turning on the lights, or alex is turn in on your fireplace, like those are the real things. And these companies built massive business on them. Again, google has this tube, a google done IT weird.

In a typical google way. They're put german. I live within assistant and IT, but assistant still lives. There is a mess.

It's total. It's google that I was thinking of when I retracted my use of the word weird for apple and amazon and said their exceptions in doing IT differently because it's google is always the winner.

I mean, it's a weird thing too. You can still set, if you s gin alive, set a timer. IT won't, but you can still go back to google assistance and set a timer.

And they worked out a new way with extensions to set a timmer. But it's it's all like either. They obviously just wanted to get that out the door again.

Do I think amazon and apple were behind and our plane catch up? Yes, but I also think it's not as easy as them to for them to just say rush IT out, rush IT out. And and I think .

the proof that apple was caught flat footed to some degree, maybe behind isn't quite right, but just IT cut flat footed is the clear, obvious. mean. At my live show after W, D, C, I asked about IT.

And IT was one of those questions that I thought there is no way they are going to give me a straight answer and they just answered straightly, yeah, that's an issue. Is the amount of RAM in the device for on device processing. And yet it's like we apple intelligence really needs whatever the device, iphone or ipad or mac, and needs at least a gig by RAM.

And so devices with less than a cake by RAM don't get IT and wall. I was like that. That's a really clear answer to the sort of question apple secular ves usually don't answer in the fact that so many recent devices, most conspicuous ly, last year's iphone fifteen non pro don't have that much RAM.

And we know that things like that gets set a especially for the iphone because of the massive hundred million units per year scale IT. Is that done a year in advance, right? Like the the iphone seventeen years from next year are locked in at this point.

I know there's i've talked to people at apple where there are certain little things that could happen as late as december or january. But for the mode, I mean, something like how much RAM is on the actual system on a chip that's already set in stone, probably months ago, if not even longer. The fact that they put a lot of especially iphones out in the world that don't have enough RAM for on device apple intelligence processing is a sign that they were caught flat footed.

But I also think apple is kind of I don't think they are happy about that. And I think if they could go back in time and say, hey, maybe maybe start put a giggs around in the iphone fourteen or thirteen, they would. And I think they kind of regret IT, but I think overall, they're comfortable.

And tim cook said IT in his walls y journal profile recently that very, very clear it's a long time apple message. Our aim is to be the best, not the first, and there are comfortable with that. I think google was very, very uncomfortable yeah culturally being accused of being late or behind and is sort of panic and still does. And it's just sort of like, okay here, fine, here's everything we know how to do. And this lot .

and what they had researchers that worked on these transformer I needs of all places to be behind of, they had that reason to feel like this was happening in our own house. Everyone in the house get IT together. Get IT together, everyone. That is a different situation across the. Four or five wherever they are down in geographic, I don't know california geography, not my thing.

I do think apples comfortable with their position. But I will say I I really don't like the ad campaign, would say that might be my the most dislike apple advertising campaign that I can remember is the commercials they are doing frapp l intelligence because I feel like all of them. My wife even says when they come on its sports season, when he sees because we don't really see a of regular TV commercials.

But i'm watching footballer when the anchors were still playing and she's sitting with me on the couch and she's like, why would I want that? Like with there is a commercial where somebody and some of the two IT just makes the human beings in the ads look rude. There's one where the actress she's the actress from the last of us and he has like A A meeting with an agent to somebody in the entertainment industry.

I did you read my script and like looks at her phone and there's an email with the script. He's like summarize and she's right there. It's up a is just rude top level IT is rude to show up at a meeting where you're supposed to have read the script, not having read the script. It's rude. It's rude and considerate.

And we give me reading materials before this podcast and I absolutely read them. I use apple intelligence to summarize your text to me.

Yeah b, how stupid do you think this other person is when you're staring at your phone, poking at IT and going, oh yeah yeah it's a story about coming of age of whatever the plod is. IT was pretty good. Then it's like the commercial's implicit message is that the other person is so stupid that they don't see that you're reading a summary of the script on the fly right in front of them and then that you're lying about IT and saying that you liked IT when you haven't read IT. It's all all of those things are I don't see any of that is positive.

right? And then there's the one to where the name SHE SHE runs into somebody. And I actually really think that's a good use case where SHE runs into somebody who sees them at the like down the hall, or whenever as like, remind me of the person I had coffee with a blank cafe. I actually would love that. But that doesn't exit strait.

Now on the problem, that's the one commercial that and i've seen some people complain about that one, two. That's the one in the campaign that I like the most, because I am often bad with names.

I am so bad with names.

I always have been. I not, not worried. That is a sign of dementia creeps up on me, but i've always been bad with name. So I do look forward to a future where i'll get some kind of assistance, you know, when I wear glasses all the time now. So I lake up on that where if all my glasses do is just tell me the name of everybody i'm looking at or or give me a button, I can do IT. I would buy those glasses in a second.

I love over all. Look, we all want that thing, but we know that that is the worst privacy situation in the history of the world. And also, by the way, maybe apple is the only one that can deliver that kind of feature with privacy because of the iphone integration. But prime another conversation.

everybody. Yeah, that is a whole other conversation where the whole idea face recognition is this enormous kind of worms for privacy and civil liberties. And I am not being blind about those very serious things that I agree with are true. But in my dream world, I want to feature, I wanted available, and I wanted to be provably private.

I absolutely want this. And in fact, we had a great story in the journal this week by colligan angry, and he wrote about how apple notes being used for at least ridiculous y funny things. And I actually featured one in the news, my newsletter today, about how people like make stickers of their outfits and put them in notes.

Anyway, checked out at my reason for bringing this up, as is that we will have this conversation about notes and that to me, that's the most private thing. If that we're to ever leak, I would be defecated and I I would be cancelled truly, not even maybe publicly, but just like by friends, right? Because I have very specific notes about people's names.

Are people mom of so and so, where so and so, her name is blank, right? This is I have, that is what I have to do. So I don't seem so rude every time I run into them at a practice or something.

I do IT to join. I would be cancelled right with you. A lot of mine, the notes like that are, in my context, not apple notes. It's, it's the t but, but there are ones. I have some apple notes.

Talk about this system a little bit because how would you know the name .

of the person I kind of know, which people I I have an intuitive sense of who I ve say, contact from. So when Jones was in school, for a lot of his friends parents, they're all in apple notes because I don't have contacts from most of them. I in fact, I had I think I was just one apple note with jonas school friends or something like that.

I have that, yes, yes, exactly.

And but I have stuff in there that I definitely wanted to come out like somebody has a gain teeth.

you remember right?

Not the worst thing in the world. It's just but it's like the mom with the gap tooth is so and so mom and now I have the .

same crap in mind IT is only the parenting nights are yeah it's not .

rude and I do trust that my apple notes are not going to be leaked publicly. And IT is a note to my future self IT is john grubber right now making a note to john gruber in the future after I forgotten whose mom SHE is and so nobody has ever intend and and that is, we had the gap to mom. I know and I my god, yeah and and yeah .

and you also know you can go surge gap truth, mom and o, yeah right there because I know that right because .

I remember that the thing that I that I would put .

I know you go and you're like, oh yeah, Lucy, right? Okay hey Lucy, how are you? And then you can be don't feel IT.

but if body ever uncovered, all of you would be like an out of carbon enthusiasm where everybody's going to be mad at me because there's something in there that and i'm like Larry David, i'm like, I didn't mean that I didn't. You never see IT IT IT, right? Just how and you do have a cap to you do have we literate IT?

This is, I don't know we got what I do know how we got .

here yeah you know what but it's funny to circle IT back. We're not getting that sort of companionship from our A I friends yet, right? Like you can't keep a secret with ChatGPT like like just between me. And you remember that the dad who walks .

with a limp or something .

books really old, you know, like somebody has a really old look and dad, or something like that, you know, these unpleasant things. But that's the thing that I remember. I we don't I can't ask serious about that.

I can't ask ChatGPT. And in the future, i'd like to have a trusted you know where every bitter and apples, the one who sort of going towards that. They haven't said anything about a future version of apple intelligence having contextual access to your notes. I know they're talking about email like .

there calendar.

Yeah the halo demo that does not exist in any shipping forum in beta yet. Is that the woman? Yeah, when's my mom's flying? When's my mom flying in the town? yes.

And IT involves siri knowing the emails that her mom had sent. And IT involves siri having access to the calendar where maybe you put the flight information and stuff like that. None of that.

But if siri had apple intelligence, I guess, had access to my notes, IT would be very helpful to me. But I really need to trust IT. I mean, cause and I don't think my notes i'd sure there's a lot of people out there with a lot worse stuff in their notes to mine, but it's private.

very private. Well, yeah, we have a great story about just all the weird things people are doing a notes.

I have not seen that, but I made a notify here and I will put IT in the showed tes. The other thing I just be before I forget to bring IT up is one of the interesting examples from your video with these for chat companions is that none of them, for that you can have these ongoing conversations with, can do, set a timer for six minutes as right.

And if I don't know why, timers and everybody in our field, me, you, everybody who writes about these things, we all turn the timer as the shortcoming. And famously, seri couldn't set more than one time at a time. But I know you have I know you've talked .

about a great success. I feel I feel great success and partial credit to all of us in this industry who would force stable to create multiple timers. There's like some engineer who is forced is like that.

I worked on that. I worked if you were the engineer to have worked on that, me and john and and so many others out there so proud of your work. And we know it's thankless, but we are very proud of your work.

I might have probably not with you, but at some point, I think this has come up on on this podcast before, but we have home pods and and alexa in our kitchen and you've met my wife. He is not into our world at all. SHE doesn't read my side every day.

She's not attack. And me getting permission to have two different talking devices in our kitchen is really out of character for her. But it's because a lex a for so long was the only one to can set multiple timers.

And aim is the one who does cooking where there might be two different things going in a kitchen. IT is not IT is actually more unusual if you only need one for a even mildly, completely x meal that you only need one time or at a time. And so relax IT effectively she's there just for multiple timers.

But and they at some point, they had added multiple timers to homework. D, and that was the answer, which was like every time that we're going check just to make sure IT doesn't work, go check with the P R team is say, well, IT does work on the home pod.

right? I mean.

I practice timer parenting. I don't know if this is a thing. I should probably like some parenting expert, but i'm constantly setting timers for my kids. Five minutes, yeah, five minutes till we are gone to leave here you can finish watching your ipad for five minutes, and we're not eat dinner. Five minutes that you can sit on the party, you know all the good things. And so I need more people, and I have two kids, and I ve got a cooking, I ve got multiple timer is essential to my life.

Yeah, reading time was Mandated. Read a book for thirty minutes. We definitely use that a lot. I mean, Johnson is twenty now.

She's but like read book .

yeah I I can't make up do IT anymore.

right? Yeah, I don't think I can make my seven year old three a book for twenty minutes still.

But IT was interesting that these other ones, which are so much more advanced conversationally, can't can't do the device timers. And dumb d theory is pretty good at IT at this point yeah and but they .

can do all those fundamental device control the things that we we, I think we would call them more a voice assistant than A I companion. Or whenever these are the assistant tasks, said a timer, set an alarm, play the music at a reminder. There are so many of those things that are essential to what we do with syria, alexa.

And that's where that conversation with greg really went, which was that we need to be able to get both things right. And I I assume that s the same thing that happening amazon with alex a especially relax, you like, when did my package arrive? What I ordered this thing off amazon? All of those, those things. We talked about the beginning of the conversation where we've trained our language. We know the vacuum and the the the words to say to get the assistant to do the thing right.

right in in some ways, if really is the same thing that is made, people like us that able to make sense of the terminal interface where you have to enter the command in this order or is not going to work, or if you screw up the R M. Command, it's going to permanently delete files that you didn't want, delete IT. And it's, well, yeah, of course, because that was my fault, because I entered the command wrong.

And we're like curse when you get mad and you curse, you luck. But you'd think, well, I was my fault. I put the command in wrong.

And where our minds naturally go that way, and most other people's do not and they shouldn't they shouldn't expected to learn the magic way and and even to learn something as simple as that makes total sense to me. That city and Alexander are now very good at setting timers on devices. And these other ones aren't because these ChatGPT and copilot style ones aren't don't have the device context. They don't run.

They're just apps on your phone, right? So IT makes total sense to me. But to a Normal person, it's like i'm just talking to the thing at a timer.

But if you be so smart, I could hire the world's worst human assistance, somebody who is so eneb ed and batted their job that i'd going to have to have an uncomfortable conversation in fire them. But they could set a timer for five minutes if I told them to. I mean.

exactly. And like when you look at what google did, they seem to take that as a moment to say, okay, we'll still have like this added on functionality for that. We need to have that functionality.

And I believe now I have to look on the pix on, I have to set this up and i'm sure there are ongoing to be some android listeners that will say, yeah, that's just an extension now you just have to plug IT in, but that's still complicated. It's not what I would see you like apple doing or even amazon doing, right? They know absolutely know what the most used things are. There are the most used, most requested things of syrian alex are and they are going to make sure that those things do not break.

I think so, right? And it's just they're approaching IT from very different perspective than these other the other child makers here. I'm going to going to hit the money belt one last time.

What you think of this? Do you think of this? Gic, but people know.

I mean, I just break up the show.

Yeah, i'm going, i'm going to stick with that.

Anyway, I want to have time to use the.

well, yeah, I used IT last week with marlin, but marlin, the one who had the bell, I said, I wish that I had a bell, but I didn't know. IT turned out he had to bell on his desk, and he had IT for me. And then I went on amazon and and book myself the bell.

Anyway, that was the money bell. And I gotto thank our third final sponsor of this episode, and that is our good friends at membership member. Ful is best in class membership software used by many of the web's biggest independent creators, publishers and even bigger media companies. It's really, really good.

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You and they have great customer support too, where you can contact somebody for help for your particular case and they can make recommendations because they know so from their experience what sort of things work and which don't for building IT and making IT successful, like what sort of things you should make members only in which ones you should put out there for everybody else, so that they want to become members of your site, they help you with that. So anyway, where do you go to find out more? Go to membership dotcoms lash talk show M E M B E R F U L dot com slash talk show member ful dot com slash talk show just as we head down the home stretch, have you had this experience?

I I think everybody in our racket dealing with apple has where you encounter an issue or a problem or an observation, and when you're communicating with apple pr about IT, they act like, uh, they don't they don't say you're crazy, they don't they don't guess like you per say but they they act like it's like a nobody he's ever said that before, which I guess is sort gas lady. But for me, I ran into this testing the iphone sixteenth in september and they they didn't say you should install the eighteen point one beta, but they didn't discourage IT. And for reviews who don't know how to do IT, they gave instructions.

And so I tried to I use them for a couple days up with eighteen point zero, which what they were gonna ship within the box, which I thought was important to note. If you buy IT, when you first on rapid, here's what you get. And then I put the eighteen point one beta on, and that's when I first got the new theory, a new series.

Voice is definitely more human, and I still use, I forget, they don't name their voices cut style anymore. They just call my voice. I think i'm a voice, three person, which is sort of the traditional, like a original theory, female american voice.

But see her boy, oh, nope. It's a voice for, american voice for is my theory. And IT definitely sounds more realistic, but also is talking to me way too slow.

It's I have a making voice too. I ve been playing around with them now, so I am .

going to, with the guy, fade with the sending sun as the stars begin to shine through the clear night.

Sorry, I was downside aid with the setting sun. As the stars begin to shine through the clear night, the colors of the sky fade, the colors of the sky fade with the setting sun you are so r you are sing you a slower and now i'm trying to download this and sorry.

I don't hear the song est in those can examples when you're trying the voices, but just day to day talking to IT and getting verbal answers back, IT seems like new theory simultaneously does sound more human in inflection, which has been like a slow boiling frog. As federal, he told you in your interview, over fifteen years now it's gotten more, more realistic, incremental every couple years.

But I find that IT talks way too slow and never nobody said that and maybe i'm the only one to notice. I don't know. But then I if you go into set IT on your phone, you can go into settings accessibility theory and there's a talking speed. And i've turned IT up to like a one hundred ten percent.

which to me still sounds a little slow.

But the other thing, and amy agrees with me, because at one place I hear, I hear the series voice all the time, is when we are driving and going somewhere in getting directions, is the new theory has like a gz vocal fry that I find annoying and it's it's not friendly, but it'll be like, get off at exit three forty seven.

It's like, why? Why are you talking like this? And I realized that this is sort of a verbal tick of Younger people to sort of reflect like that. But I don't want my phone talking to me like that. I don't know if you noticed this .

or is this the .

so yeah, I think I might be a voice forth thing and i'm going to try switching after this after we're done.

Recall just download IT says still downloading voice for I think for this some sort of bug because i've got very good connection. IT should be downloading. Downloaded already. I noticed something different than that, which was when I first was using the beta of I was sitting that one in my car.

I would just misunderstand in a real bad way like I would like IT IT was just was like I didn't make any sense if I would ask like directly to this or play this like they were very, very a greg's errors. So that's gotten Better. I feel I want to keep in I on that, but I feel like that was my biggest thing about the switch.

yes. But to gret, to your point, yes, into apple credit, IT has gotten to some more natural. They did really highlight the fact that if you ask something in a new flab, but or if you like, oh, actually I meant this IT picks up on that. I've noticed all of that working very well, and that happens to me frequently. I say, oh, turn off the lights in the actually mean.

yeah, I do that out. I don't know why, because I astanding bly as a podcasts or should be fairly good at putting sentences together without stammers ing. But when i'm talking to C, I guess I know i'm talking to a device and so I don't vote my full attention to IT because I don't have the respect I have for that. I have for either a person i'm talking to physically or like here, conscious of the fact that tens of thousands of people are going to listen to the podcast. IT has my full attention in a way that when i'm just asking siri to open the living room shades in the morning, IT doesn't right.

I do makes sense. Or you and I sometimes you'll at for me, i'll say I wanted I wanted do this, but then I just slightly change IT and that works pretty well yeah because I .

could change your mind half through because you started the command before you've really thought IT through. You like actually make IT seven minutes, not five minutes or something like done like that. I was going to heat up a pizza, pizza and the other side even hard yet.

So yeah, I don't seven minutes. It's not gonna hard. Give IT ten minutes and it's like you you change a halfway through. Definitely, that is a real noticeable improvement and also won that i've already taken for granted. No ones which just go to what crag was saying.

which is that, that we're just gonna ep wanting more and more. But to be fair, IT is a pretty low bar still. I mean, I think for me, and I highlighted this in my apple intelligence review, is that when you say that series getting Better, people expect some of the worst parts of theory to get Better.

And I think that one of the worst parts of theory for me, IT will, isn't like they're at speaking of the great Larry David, there's like great Larry David scene, which I think you linked to a few minutes ago. It's not the misunderstand. I mean, the misunderstanding happens and it's funny or IT triggers all of the devices when you want to ask one, and it's trigger ing your computer, the home pipe.

Those are all, I think, other theory corks that we live with. And it's fine for me to search the web, right? Something that I think is pretty Normal or I expected, have the answers. And IT tells me to search the web is where I think that like serious stupidity lies .

yeah totally. And IT just feels frustrated. And now that these other bots can do IT IT really stands out as and omission. But it's like, don't just tell me to go to wikipedia. I'm asking you verbally because I want a verbal answer and one hundred percent certain that you could pass the wikipedia pages that you're sending me to and get the answer from the first paragraph. H, I know you could do IT and you're just refusing not to.

You been this theory.

The Larry David dig was so funny, and I saw that I saw that he was him talking to her to syrian his car and getting anger and other at the directions and the argument they're having A I having trying to get the directions, and somebody asked him about that scene, and he said he was complete. Know, like almost everything in the show is totally based on real life, except that in real life, he got away angry. And he said, usually the me on the show is actually a worse version to me than real me, I think. And he said, in that case, the real me is ready to drive the car off off the Cliff.

I mean, I think also there's each just like fully like he's cursing. I i'd linked to IT a few months ago and seven years got bad because they said he was just pledge, not good ability. He's really cursing.

But sometimes you really need curse words and sometimes when syrian, these things really let you down. It's there's no other way to express yourself that completely. The other thing I ve noticed with the ChatGPT in integration with syrian eight in apple intelligence is it's clearly not the ChatGPT you get in the APP.

It's it's just like pure access to the model, which is powerful and does amazing things like right poem ms that that series or apple intelligence can do. But IT doesn't have the integration with the live web results that the ChatGPT APP does, right? So there's the whole training window model problem where oh that this model was trained on data up to the summer of two thousand and twenty two.

And that's like we're all of its knowledges. So IT doesn't know anything that happened after whatever the cut off data and when you're using the ChatGPT APP. Now I don't I don't even notice that anymore because yeah behind the scenes that will go on the web and get live answers for last week's election or sports, the word series that took place last month or something like that.

And when you're using the ChatGPT aggression in apple intelligence, you don't get any that IT just isn't there. And again, it's if that integration in apple intelligence wasn't there, I wouldn't miss IT because when I want to ask a question like that, I don't go to apple intelligence because I know I going to work. I go to the ChatGPT p, so I not even sure why just use the ChatGPT APP for ChatGPT things. Isn't apples answered to these questions? See.

i'm just and again, i'm doing more testing and i'm planning to do something more on this in the coming weeks. I haven't really played around deeply with the ChatGPT stuff, but like when is IT going? I just don't know if I have a best the hand all yet on when IT is going to go out ChatGPT.

I mean, I know it's asking chat P T in the rating tools. So when now we use, specify a prompt. So if you say, write an email to join grubber, telling him I will definitely beyond his podcast, but I can only do IT at these times, make a professional above a, but I will use ChatGPT.

That's how I know you used to ChatGPT if I came across this professional .

right that using ChatGPT there. But when I go to theory and I type something, i'm not getting anything going to ChatGPT beyond like my polar mask.

no. And I I feel and that's one of those things I I really do think that sometimes talking to apple like can you and I can through apple P R, in a way that rare IT is sometimes like talking to an LLM because they don't want to give you in a way that these LLM won't just say and and are technically capable of saying, I don't know, right? So they give you a rather than tell you I don't know how to make your cheese stick Better gear pizza i'm sorry, I I realized that a problem, but I don't know they'll just make up an answer like you sam's glue and apple when you ask them questions like when does he go to ChatGPT, they're like hot that's a good question and because they don't want to answer instead of saying, you know what we don't want .

to give an answer to that because example all right. I know like I like the apple P, R, but IT IT says I asked IT to do a gluten free banana putting recipe, and I went through a ChatGPT. But when I asked IT before, just for a me ball recipe, IT did not go to chat. You see.

I don't know how, I don't know how to .

live testing here on the on the show.

Yeah and and when you interviewed federal year and of course, on camera, he's going to stay on message. But IT was a great interview and IT wasn't cycle one in many ways. But in terms of getting an answer like that, they just they know it's a thing and they know when and why it's going to ChatGPT, obviously, yeah, but they don't want to talk about IT.

And I think part of IT is that they want to be flexible so that if they have if if there on device processing is Better in three months than IT is today, that IT will do things on device that previously went to private club compute and and maybe they'll use private cloud compute for things that previously IT was handing off to ChatGPT, and they don't want to give in the answer in november. That may not be true in march, but they don't want to say that either. I wish that they in the same way, I really, really wish ChatGPT would just say, I don't know how to answer that when IT doesn't have to answer that. I wish apple would tell me, yeah, we just don't want to answer that rather than talk around IT yeah and yeah. I mean.

I think there's a lot of things going on because i'm also using this two and it's it's using obviously the knowledge based wikipedia, which IT has had before. So and it's using whatever other web sources is already brought in. So it's it's clearly there some segmentation of use ChatGPT for X, Y, Z types of prompts. And to your point, maybe we can ask apple and they will get back to us or maybe they will just have A L response that is just we are looking into IT. But thank you for .

inquiring about this pretty much. I don't have anything else that I wanted to talk about. I at least on this subject and you're I always appreciate I I love talking to you.

Join him. I love this conversation. I I mean, I took a lot away from IT, but especially that I must watch these movies.

I I realized now the one thing I is, the last thing I wanted to talk you about them, am a little come, a little heart. I learned only through your most recent video after I I don't know which one of them, but one of those boats started addressing you is joe and and you said, well, it's interesting because I didn't tell you to call me joe, but my closest friends call me joe. Will you never told me to call you joe?

You can call me joe. My family calls me joe, my my friends from, like, high school, college calme joe, my wife sometimes yeah, everyone calls me ja, yeah, you can alright, you can do IT you were there. We're there.

I didn't feel like I was there, but a chat. B T, but I mean, IT really took like that. yeah. I think my only other thing that I wanted to say was you wrote an amazing essay last week, and I don't know if you've talked about IT on your show.

but I can interview you about that if you like. I did talk about IT with merland. Man, last on the last of it's all right. I did and thank you very much.

The response has been it's una unusual essay for me and I would just say to, I generated way more responses than I usually get anything at, right? And every single one of them, not even ninety nine, but one hundred percent of them that i've since I ve just been gracious and wonderful and and i've trying to, unlike my usual self, for just gives up on answers. I'm trying to answer everyone. And if anybody wrote and I didn't answer and you're listening, know that I did read IT and I thank you. IT was very.

very touching. No, I think I was. I was. I loved IT. And I think sometimes we don't get to see the other sides of people. I don't even know that was so much of that as I feel like. I do know you a little bit as as a friend and some of your personal life, but I just the way you ve thread at that was was so, so wonderful. touching.

Thank you. Thank you. And if it's it's and I always amy always knows amy knows that when i'm the most uncertain about publishing something IT turns out to be like one of the best things about britain.

It's I I my mom died back at the end of june, a very end june. And like her funeral, was joy first. So I for a while I was saying july, but I was the funeral.

I was in a juba anyway, I was summer and had no words to write about IT, but I thought about IT and thought about IT, and it's been there. And then the election happened and my dad lost his ring. And the whole thing .

just can just .

IT just formed in my head. And it's, yeah, that thing where your mom died has been turning in my head for so many months. And IT just is like all I need to write this and I think people might might suit the moment for a lot of people to read. And I took me like three days to right. And by the time I got done with that, I was like the seem self I know.

No, I think I I think that's where I was like your story. But I think at least for me, I was so reliable. I'd also gotten some bad news about a family friend last week. And I was just everyone was not everyone, unfortunately no yeah but everyone.

but many people was sad.

And I just was a IT was beautifully written actually I was wondering, know that about your writing and you're very out and open about your politics and you must have some readers. I mean, look at the makeup of this country right now. I mean, you must have some readers that don't, that did not agree or did not vote. Harris, do they share with you? I mean, what do they so .

that that's an very innocent I I like this bonus interview. Yeah.

this is again my podcast that I .

don't but again, but I often hear this when you're on the show is this show is that people love IT because you tend to take over waited.

I waited two hours.

I know one minute and again, i'm often reluctant my nature to be reluctant to talk about the behind the same. But on this particular one, i'm i'm actually happy too. I if IT so I started daring favorable in two thousand and four.

And I had very strong opinions politically about the W A bush, dict I. Administration and especially the second term. And I i've almost never wrote about IT on daring foobar, and I wasn't because I was just starting this and I don't want to piece people off.

I just thought even though I had extremely strong opinions, I felt in the natural way in a way that people who don't agree with me politically still think I should separate them, because I come to your side for attack. Please leave this. Stuff off.

And I just I kind of felt that way about IT then. And I also didn't spend much time even though I really, really like barack obama and I really especially his two thousand and eight action was one of the best days of my life meant. And amy and jonas, jonas was four at the time.

We voted in the morning and flew to chicago to be with our friend jim koto and his lovely family. And we went to grant park for the big evidence, like, I don't know, hundred thousand people. I mean, that was is enormous place.

And IT was packed to watch the election results. And I I mean, i've had this feeling many times, but I thought he was gonna in them and is partly why we flew to chicago. But we didn't know, you don't know, and we're there for his speech.

And IT was remarkable and they didn't know who we were. But there's i'll put a picture here, I make a note and i'll send IT to you that. But IT was on the front page of the chicago tribute in the next day was a picture of people from grand park.

And you can see me with jonas on my shoulders. And jim, his son Spencer, was a couple years older than Jones was on his shoulders, even though his six or seven at the time. And you can see amy and the games of family is White hidy.

We're in the crowd. Is that a picture of us persue, but is especially jonas and spend as the kids who were there? I got a and you can buy, I know of the journal disease, but we you can buy pictures from the newspaper and we bought we have a big frame version of the picture.

It's just a great moment. I didn't spend a lot of time writing about obama in that time either. So it's not just that I hate on republicans and so I just didn't feel the place.

But when trump got elected in twenty sixteen, to me, IT crossed the wine is other than politics, it's it's not just policy and you agree with IT or you don't agree with IT and its traditional conservatism and liberalism and left right band. It's these bigger things like just truth and lies and competence and object stupidity. And or as I love the word cadoc racy, I can't say IT, but I love the word and is a word that means government of the least competent people.

And you know, nominating this idiot gates from florida to be the attorney general is goes beyond the definition of cca astok racy. But the whole first trumpet administration was full of this stuff. And then he tried to overflow the results of a fair and free election.

That to me, isn't political in the traditional sense. It's different. And I couldn't see keeping in my mouth shut about IT for four years.

And yes, I definitely heard from people who were upset about the people who still like trump. Willey y was the president. And I guess I lost some number of readers.

I mean, I don't really pay attention to analytics that much. I I seems like my site is popular and I feel like when I did pay attention to stats, IT was not helpful. And you know and I .

was I was IT any any different of IT seems what's interest.

So what's interesting is when I posted that, how IT went the S A about my mom and is never really talking about the election much other than my experience is watching the results come in, in a very nerdy, data driven way. I got a bunch of a bunch of the emails I got. We're from people who said, hey, we disagree on politics.

I voted for trump a ba but it's just really nice like the people who some people stop reading from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty and other people who I think are more they I they disagree and they still they voted for this month but I think are less passionate about IT for whatever the reasons to vote for the sun of a bitch they they're not as the you all love in the veins about IT and just wrote very nice thank you. Note and acknowledge that we have different opinions on IT and but that was a lovely thing to share. But here we are again and facing down four years of this. And I I don't know I don't have a strategy for IT. I post I know I posted .

last I posted there was.

uh, there is my tyson, fifty eight year old. My tyson is fighting. Now by the time this podcasts is out, it'll be over.

But it's on friday, november fifteen th. He's fighting jake paul, the youtube r yeah. And at the way, it's a real fight though that sounds like a stunt.

But at the real, at the real way in for this fight, which has to take place before a sanctions official boxing match, tyson slapped him in the face. And I linked to the headline at E. S.

P. N. My test slapped jake, paul and face. And then I quipped, the winner of the fight gets to view the next secretary, the treasury, which made me laugh out loud. I thought last night, sitting on the couch, I literally laughed out loud before I wrote IT and I said, oh my god, i've got to write that.

And then you realized there is a chance that .

could be come yeah with mad gates. Is the dominy for eternity general? I actually think mike tyson as secretary, the treasury, would actually I, if I can have one of the other, i'd rather have my tyson a secretary, the treasury, in all seriousness, than peppo crew.

Matt gates, as a turny general, I really would turn that much into pro wrestling. Yeah, I mean, how cogan hope cogan actually went to the republican convention. He's got to be mad at his .

there's a lineup of people, your kid rock, there's a lot of people that could be up for some jobs that we don't know.

Yeah, a kid rock. I mean, why is he? He should be in charge of like alcohol, tobacco and firearms, right? I mean, that seems like he loves them also or just .

education that's right there for the taking. It's tty much the same thing that you just described. Anyway, I didn't want to get into politics. I just wondering about IT.

No, I realized for examples you know there's no way that you know you work at the wall sty journal and you have a beat and your your day job, you have to stick to the beat, of course. And other people who are more independent creators who the election came, went and there's nothing on their site about IT, whether pro or can't. I don't pass any judgment on them at all. And you write what you want to. But I realized the way I do that is a bit unique in in our field.

I think we have very strict standards and guidelines of the journal, so i'm not even allowed to really share much on politics other than news headlines. And and I mean, I can stretch that, but I just have tended not to. I've written some pieces in the last couple of weeks.

I read a lot about tex spam, and I got this crazy amount of tax spam a few weeks ago and I was completely all right wing like insane amount. And I wrote about, like, trying to track down, because I did text, stop. IT was the stories, basically my text and stop.

And I got flood, a flood within. Within the first twenty four hours, I had another thirty messages, and I went over on for three days, and I had about one hundred messages. And so I wrote all about this.

But they were all like, from truth, from packs, trump supporting packs, all of those things. And so a lot of people assumed I was a trump supporter. And so I got a lot of hate mail from people saying, where you're going na support him and then this week I twisted something.

I was on nbc news and I said something about why people are leaving x they had interviewed me and a lot of people from the other side saying, yeah, this is that. And so I try, let IT all be out there. And of course, I, i've also told my standards, people at the journal, I always said, if these are social issues that affect my life, i'm going to be out there talking about them.

Social media.

yeah, on social I mean, I wasn't quiet around october s and what's happened in israeli and they're certainly am not quiet when we when things are about l GPT rights, i'm not quiet about those people can make their assumptions. When I tried to .

stay away from IT all then there's realized, president, I have fear with with J, F, K, junior apparently being nominee for health and human services. A vote for Donald trump is a vote for school shootings and measles. So I said, oh, I love IT and it's really, it's both. It's what makes us human.

Is the the another butch of the paraphrasing? But the f scot fits geral line that the sign of a first class in elect is being able to hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time, so you can both find that funny and find IT heartbreaking at the same time, right? IT is, IT is a vote for meals.

IT is a vote for more school shootings. IT is. And those, those are the vaccines are one of the great technologies of, it's all human kind. IT is just absolutely astonishing how many people either died or went blind or, with polio, wound up unable to walk from these diseases from the time human beings existed until vaccines and a wide distribution of them. And nothing is as electric emotionally at school shootings.

It's thank god that you can, if you want to put on your data and lift cap, you can say very few kids as a percentage are in schools with a school shooting in any given year. But IT is very small consolation when they keep happening over and over and over again and randomly anywhere, right? So IT is also is very much human nature that anything that's Randy reinforced is on your mind and yeah.

I guess if you want to be really destroy and to bring the whole episode for circle boat, they don't, my friend, boats. They don't need vaccines.