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That's BlueNile.com. Welcome to the Serial Killer Podcast. The podcast dedicated to serial killers. Who they were. What they did. Tonight, dear listener, we return to the Australian outback. I know the third and final installment in the Ivan Millet saga is one week delayed. This is due to the fascinating interview I had the privilege of conducting last week.
As the old saying goes here in Norway, he who waits for something good does not wait in vain. In part one and two, I took you on a journey through the Australian bush where we took a closer look at the various sites Ivan Milat conducted his brutal torture, rapes, and murders before he was finally apprehended.
We now depart somewhat from the scorching Aussie outback sun and venture mostly indoors to the Court of Justice. The trial of Ivan Robert Marko Milat began on Tuesday the 26th of March, 1996, at the historic St. James Road Court in the heart of Sydney, with more than a hint of the horror which was to come.
Crown Prosecutor Mark Tedeschi, Queen's Counsel, started by outlining the attempted abduction of Paul Onions, who, he said, Millat intended killing purely for psychological gratification. He then graphically explained the injuries that were suffered by the seven victims of the killer.
The backpackers were killed in a ferocious and sustained attack, during which vastly more force was used than necessary to kill them. These killings were for killing's sake, he said. Though it was bogged down in essential detail, the crown case was simple.
The physical evidence found at 22 Cinnabar Street linked Millard with all four groups of bodies found in the forest, and the modus operandi of the killer showed that whoever did commit the murders did them all. The jurors had the chance to see for themselves the sites where the bodies of the seven backpackers were discovered.
On the 18th of April, the Belanglo State Forest was closed to the public to protect the anonymity of the jury and the court adjourned to examine the area. The prosecution took three months to make their case.
But among all their damning ballistics and forensic evidence, it was the testimony of two very different witnesses that probably convinced the jury there could be no reasonable doubt. The first was Karen Millat, aged 37, who rarely looked at her ex-husband as she recalled four different trips to the Belanglo State Forest with Ivan in 1983.
On two occasions, he had gone to shoot kangaroos and finished one off by cutting its throat. The other two times, they just drove around and had a picnic. Despite Millat's claims he had never been to the forest, Karen told the court how he seemed to know his way and never used a map. "'Ivan just liked guns,' the woman now under witness protection explained.'
Ivan knew how to handle them and was confident about handling guns. She also confirmed that Ivan was known by many aliases, including "Bargo Bill." The second key witness was Paul Onions, who had escaped from Millat in 1990 and whose identification of him in 1994 from police photographs helped lead to his arrest.
Mr. Onions, now aged thirty, told the terrifying story of how Millat had pulled a revolver on him while he was hitching south along the Hume Highway. Millat said it was a robbery, but Onions saw some rope sticking out of his bag. It was just a bag with dirty-colored rope. I saw the rope, and that scared me more than the gun.'
I undid my seatbelt and jumped straight out of the vehicle, he told the court. Onions tried to flag down passing cars as Millat chased him and fired a shot at him. I heard the gun go off. I just froze, and then I started dodging and weaving as best I could. When no cars stopped, Onions said he was about to give up when he felt Millat's hand on his shirt. He struggled and managed to get away,
"'Once I broke free, I thought the next vehicle that comes over the hill, I'm just going to stand in front of it. Even if it runs me over, that's it. But the young engineer was lucky. He managed to stop a passing van, jumped inside and locked the door. The people inside were saying, "'Get out! Get out!' And I said, "'This man has got a gun. I am not going anywhere.'
Onions, who had left all of his belongings in Millat's vehicle, said the last thing he remembered seeing was a stupid grin on the face of the man who'd just tried to gun him down. It was the thirteenth week of his trial that Millat climbed into the witness box and swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
He could have made an unsworn statement from the dock, but to the surprise of many, chose to give evidence and, more importantly, to face cross-examination. Ivan was by now a middle-aged man. His defense team had done everything to make him look more presentable. His iconic handlebar moustache was gone.
His usually unkempt hair was now clean-cut, with grey wings on the side. On his face was still his very recognisable, distinct, overbite grin. Dressed in a navy-blue suit, Millat coolly answered the questions of his counsel, Mr. Terry Martin.
He denied having any knowledge of or involvement in any of the deaths or the abduction of Paul Onions. He admitted having up to 30,000 rounds of ammunition for Chinese-made rifles at his home, but had no idea how the vital Ruger rifle parts came to be hidden there.
He claimed he had never been to the Belanglow State Forest, contradicting the sworn evidence of his former wife, and he had no explanation as to how many of the victims' property came to be in his and his brother's homes. It was soon after this that what many regard as the turning point came under cross-examination from Crown Prosecutor Mark Tedeschi.
to whom the ever-cool Millat just kept up his denials. So, the Queen's Council began. You asked the jury to accept that someone broke into your locked house, despite the burglar Aram, planted a Ruger rifle bolt in the ceiling of your garage, dropped the weapons receiver in one of your boots in the hall cupboard,
making sure both gun parts were painted in the same camouflage colors you use on your firearms, then left a single-fire cartridge linked to the murder of Miss Caroline Clark in a plastic bag, on the bed, in a spare room. The usually cocky Millat could only answer, they must have. It was a low point for the defense,
from which they never fully recovered. There were only a half-dozen witnesses for the defense in the entire trial, and conspicuous by their absence were Millat's sister, Shirley Swar, with whom he shared the Eagle Vale home, and his mother, Margaret Millat. The witnesses that Millat's side did call presented him as a good neighbor, who was always willing to help,
but the damage had already been done to his reputation. In his final address, Crown Prosecutor Mark Tedeschi said it was Millat's incredible arrogance and unbelievable self-confidence which led him to keep his victim's camping gear and parts of a murder weapon at his home. He said Millat not only fitted the physical description given by Onions,
but at his four-wheel drive and a revolver with copper-tipped bullets also matched the traveller's testimony. Mill had also often visited Lombardo's shops at Casciola, where Onions was offered his fateful ride. "'It is my submission there is only one person in the whole of Australia who matches all of those descriptions. The man—'
"'The car, the equipment, and the place. And that is the accused,' he concluded. It's almost as though the accused left a fingerprint in the forest because of the incredible coincidence of all the items being linked to him. Then Millat's counsel made a strategic concession.'
and raised a terrifying theory which has continued to haunt the case to this very day. Terry Martin said there was a reasonable possibility that one, or both, of Ivan's younger brothers could have committed the murders and then planted the evidence on their sibling. Ivan himself had testified that he had no knowledge of whether his brothers were involved in the offences.
Both Richard Millat, a laborer at the time aged 40, and Walter Millat, a self-employed builder aged 44, had featured prominently in the trial, but both had denied having anything to do with or any knowledge of the backpacker crimes, despite the victim's property being found at their homes.
"'There can be absolutely no doubt that whoever committed all eight offences must be within the Millat family, or very, very closely associated with it. Blind Freddy can see that,' Mr. Martin said in his final address. He said if there was any doubt that Ivan was the guilty party, he should be given the benefit of that doubt.'
But in closing, the defense left the jury with a tantalizing question. Do you think that a person capable of those most brutal crimes would give two hoots about planting gear on a brother? Do you not think a person guilty of that behavior would do anything to avoid conviction?
Mrs. Millard was not called by the defense to give evidence, but shortly before the end of the trial, she told a newspaper reporter that her whole family was not guilty of any crime. But if Ivan is innocent, then they'll go and arrest Richard, she said. They are both innocent.
"'They were living here when those murders were meant to happen. "'I did all their washing. "'There was no blood. "'They're good boys,' she said.'
Then Justice Hunt began to sum up the evidence, which had taken sixty-two days, involved one hundred and forty-five crown and nine defense witnesses, and concerned four hundred and twenty exhibits. The sheer weight of minute detail had filled more than three thousand five hundred pages of transcripts.
He asked the jury to put aside any sympathy they might have for the victims or their families, many of whom were present throughout the grueling days of testimony. And, he reminded them, suspicion is not a substitute for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There was still no definite evidence that placed Ivan Millat at the murder scene,
But the judge told the jury, circumstantial evidence may be compared to rope, a thick piece of cord made up of a number of strands of fiber. Not one of those strands alone may have very much strength, but when those strands are taken together, the strength of the rope may be very great. The image was appropriate.
As the jury evidently considered, they had enough rope to figuratively hang Millat. On Saturday, the 27th of July, 1996, after a four-month trial and twenty hours of deliberation, spanning four days, the jury returned.
As the foreman stood to read out guilty verdicts to all charges, Mrs. Gillian Walters, the mother of the murdered Welsh backpacker, Joanne Walters, gasped loudly from the public gallery. Millat did not react, as he was immediately sentenced to jail for the term of his natural life. The whole nightmare seemed over for the grieving families,
and an outraged Australia. But there were more disturbing surprises to come. In passing sentence, Justice Hunt stated that Millett's callous indifference to suffering of his victims was almost beyond belief, and he suggested that the only motive ever raised by the court for Millett's reign of terror was that the backpackers had been savagely and cruelly attacked—
for the psychological gratification of the prisoner the judge then stated what police investigators the families of the deceased and public feared most it is inevitable that the prisoner was not alone in that criminal enterprise he said
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For me, one non-negotiable activity is researching psychopathic serial killers and making this podcast. Even when we know what makes us happy, it's often near impossible to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever.
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Visit betterhelp.com slash serialkiller today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash serialkiller. Manfred Noggebauer, the father of one of the German victims, remains convinced that Millat was not alone. He said, and I quote, "'Gabois was 186 meters.'
and very strong. When he sometimes went into the forest to cut firewood, he would cut huge logs and carry whole stumps. It would have taken two men to kill him." Dr. Peter Bradhurst, the forensic pathologist who conducted all seven autopsies, said throughout that he thought it likely there was more than one person involved.
The theory of multiple killers was supported by evidence that two rifles had been used at one death scene and shots had been fired from different directions. Evidence was also given that the branches used to cover the bodies were too heavy for one man to lift. Different methods were used to kill two pairs of victims. Caroline Clark had been shot ten times in the head
while Joanne Walters had been stabbed fourteen times. Gabor Nogabawa was shot six times in the head and strangled, but his girlfriend, Anya Habshid, had been decapitated. Police also considered it unlikely, with six victims travelling in pairs, that Millat could have restrained them alone during the bumpy drive into the Belanglo State Forest.
They also could not explain why cigarette butts and liquor bottles were found at the gravesites when Ivan Millat allegedly neither smoked nor drank. After the trial, the chief suspects were Ivan's brothers Richard and Wally, who had been named in court by Millat's own counsel.
In a remarkable television interview shortly after the trial, Richard Millat, who had allegedly told workmates that stabbing a woman was like cutting a loaf of bread, denied that he had any links with the murders. Wally Millat denied involvement and refuted the theory that there were two killers. I quote,
End quote.
soon after ivan's conviction sydney's daily telegraph released tapes of a secretly recorded conversation in which richard millat discussed details of the killings just days after his brother's arrest
The tape, which lasts 72 minutes, was recorded in a Sydney pub in 1994 during a covert police operation involving a family friend of the Milletts called Philip Paul Glaze. He went undercover for three months following Ivan's arrest, after telling police Millett had earlier informed him of his killing spree.
The tape was said to show the extraordinary insight that Richard Millat had into the mind of the killer. He told his mate, who was wired for sound, that there must have been more than one person involved, or how would the Big German have had a broken arm, a broken jaw, and a broken back?
Richard Millat told how there would be heaps more bodies, and spoke about some skinny fucking pommy backpacker who police believed to be Paul Onions. Richard also admitted he had scant evidence. I quote, "'So I am a lunatic. I'm not worried about it. I don't worry if they come and arrest me for fucking killing all those backpackers too.'
There is very little defense on me saying where I was, where I was at. End quote. That tape was never tendered in evidence. Halfway through Millat's committal hearing in November of 1994, Paul Glaze was killed in a head-on collision with another car near his home in the country. Police concluded there were no suspicious circumstances,
But considering those circumstances, maybe you, dear listener, come to a different conclusion. A disturbing allegation was raised by one of Ivan Milat's former cellmates, suggesting he might have started killing in the early 1970s. Noel Manning spent eight weeks in a cell with Milat in 1974 and heard endless stories of rape, murder and torture.
"'Manning was then eighteen, "'serving twelve months for stealing and assault, "'and told that none of Millat's stories were ever the same. "'I was terrified. "'He talked about how he would stake people out on the ground, "'cut them open, and let them bleed. "'The stories went on and on. "'Male, female, boy, girl.'
He never spoke about the same person twice, and the stories were non-stop every night, recalled Manning. He gave a lengthy statement which a police source said was plausible, and was supported by the way in which some of the backpackers had died. But Manning, who was then facing fraud charges, never lived to see the trial. He just happened to commit apparent suicide a few weeks before it began.
Even so, detectives began looking into the files of five women who went missing in the late 1970s and 80s, near where Millat was working at the time. Police also began re-examining the files of 15 other missing persons who had disappeared while hitchhiking in New South Wales, and could also have been victims of Millat.
on the eighth of august nineteen ninety six an investigation team began searching an area of the blue mountains one hundred miles west of sydney for what they feared could be a second burial ground soon after millat's conviction
Police had also reopened the murder case of 18-year-old Peter Letcher, whose badly decomposed body was found by bushwalkers in Janolan State Forest in January of 1988. There were certainly striking similarities to the backpacker victims.
"'Letcher was last seen alive the previous November, "'when he had hitched away from his home at Busby, in southwest Sydney. "'A coroner's report revealed that Letcher had been shot several times in the head, "'and killed in a similar manner to the backpackers. "'But meticulous search of the area with metal detectors "'failed to turn up any new evidence or any further bodies.'
Meanwhile, the police kept their files open on the Belanglo State Forest killings, while several members of the Millat clan complained that they were still under surveillance and that they believed their phones were being tapped. Ivan Robert Marko Millat began the rest of his life in a small, three-by-five-meters,
Sandstone Cell in Maitland Bay, north of Sydney. Officials almost immediately classified him as an A2 maximum security inmate, the third highest classification a prisoner can be given. He was initially only allowed one visitor per month. However, unlike so many serial killers, his story does not end with cold iron bars shutting behind him.
Ivan Millat has been corresponding with his Sydney-based nephew, Alistair Shipsey, from the country's most notorious maximum security prison since 2002. Mr Shipsey self-published the Millat Letters in Australia in 2015. In the letters, Millat complains about his cell resembling an enclosed cement box.
He explained why and how he hacked off his own finger with a plastic knife and addressed it to a judge in 2009. According to Millat, he knows how to get what he wants behind bars. Hunger strikes, self-harm, and displaying aggressive behavior are two of his favorite tactics. He also claims to get his share of women who writes to him in search of love.
According to Millat, he's not interested in romance. Some of the women are, and I quote Ivan here, crazy fucks. In fact, he's not overly interested in anyone other than himself, professing to avoid other inmates as he shares his views on them.
The killer's words do not give any mention of sympathy for the families of the seven young backpackers he killed in the Belanglo State Forest, south of Sydney, between 1989 and 1992. He has been described as a highly manipulative inmate by prison authorities.
But that hasn't stopped him from reaching out to those on the outside and convincing at least one person, Mr. Shipsey, of his alleged innocence. If scandalous behavior inside prison wasn't enough, the Millat case never seems to come to an end. In 2012, Millat's great-nephew, Matthew Millat,
and his friend Cohen Klein, both aged 19 at the time of their sentencing, were sentenced to a respectively 43 and 32 years in prison for murdering David Ochterloyne on his 17th birthday with an axe in 2010. They murdered him in the same Belanglo State Forest Ivan used as his hunting grounds.
Matthew Millett struck Octorloni with a double-headed axe as Klein recorded the attack with a mobile phone. In a confession, Matthew Millett said he was just doing what my family does when he and Cohen Klein lured their friend David Octorloni into the forest on the 20th of November 2010. Millett and Klein had told Octorloni that they were going there to drink and smoke marijuana.
But when they arrived, Millat accused Octorlone of going round telling people his affairs, and told him, "'Look at the fucking dirt, Octo. I'm going to fucking kill you if you keep fucking moving. Look at the ground and answer my questions.'" Millat continued to interrogate and threaten Octorlone while Klein recorded using his cell phone. The fifteen-minute audio recording, which captures the sound of the axe hitting the victim's body,
was played in court, with Octor Lowney's family members present. A third teenager, Chase Day, was with Klein and Millat, and tried to stop Millat from swinging the axe, but was told by Millat to get back in the car. Also presented in court were several poems written by Millat prior to the killing. One poem, entitled Killer Looks and on Evil Side, reads...
Take a dash, safety in twos. Look for a friend, so you feel safe. Trust them, or your life they might take. Are you safe? You'll never know, but one day you might come to blows. Another poem, Cold Life, contains the lines, Kill for cash is what I do. Call me up, I'll work for you.
I am not fazed by blood or screams. Nothing I do will haunt my dreams. What follows is an excerpt of the audio transcript of the video showing the actual murder of Octorloni. Millard. Look at the dirt. Don't look at me. Look at the dirt. Don't look at me. Octorloni. Crying.
"'Millat, look at the fucking dirt, Octo. "'I'm going to fucking kill you if you keep fucking moving. "'Look at the ground and answer my questions.' "'Octolone's still crying. "'Millat, you keep looking at me, I'll cut your head off. "'Look at the ground, cunt. "'Tell me, is it true you have been going around telling people my affairs?' "'Octolone. "'No, it's not true, Matt. "'Millat, don't look at me, all right? "'Octolone, I'm not man.'
"'Millat, look at the dirt!' "'Octolone, I am. It's not true.' "'Millat, put your arms up around your head.' "'Octolone, it's not true, Matt.' "'Millat, shut up, cunt. Put your hands down next to your face. Pull them up to your face. You're going to keep meddling with me?' "'Octolone, no, I won't. I swear to God, man.' "'Millat, how am I going to know that?' "'Octolone, you have my word.' "'Millat, how good is your word to me, Bert?'
Ochtolone. Mate, we've been mates for ages. My word is good. Millat. Yeah, we've been mates for ages, and how many times have I been told that you're dogging me behind my fucking back, cunt? Right? You got me? Ochtolone. Yeah. Millat, look at the ground. Do you understand what I'm saying to you? Ochtolone. Yes, man, I understand, dude. Millat. Do you really, bud? Ochtolone. Yes, man.
''Millat, do you really, Bart?'' ''Ochterloni, yes, dude.'' ''Millat, seriously?'' ''Ochterloni, yes.'' ''Millat, seriously?'' ''Ochterloni, seriously?'' ''Millat, yeah, I don't believe you, cunt.'' ''Ochterloni, I am serious, man. I swear to God to you, dude, I never said nothing about you.'' ''Millat, I really do not fucking believe you right now, all right?''
"'Octorloni. Man, I give my word I would not—' "'Millat. Yeah, you give me your word and your word isn't fucking good enough, Octo. I've had your word before and it ain't worth a pinch of cold fucking shit.' Sound of axe hitting Octorloni. End recording. "'Police maintain that Ivan Millat may have been involved in many more murders than the seven for which he was convicted.'
In 2001, Millat was ordered to give evidence at an inquest into the disappearances of three other female backpackers, but no case has been brought against him due to a lack of evidence. Similar inquiries were launched in 2003 in relation to the disappearance of two nurses and again in 2005 relating to the disappearance of hitchhiker Annette Briffa, but no charges have resulted.
In May of 2015, Millat's brother Boris told Dr. Steve Aperin, a former homicide detective who serves as a consultant with the LAPD and FBI, among others, that Ivan Millat was responsible for another shooting, that of taxi cab driver Neville Knight in 1962.
After conducting polygraph tests with Boris Millat and Alan Dillon, the man convicted of Knight's shooting, Epron is convinced that both men are telling the truth and that Ivan Millat did in fact shoot Knight. On the 27th of October 2005, in the New South Wales Supreme Court,
Millat's final appeal was refused, and he is likely to remain in prison for the rest of his life.
Whoa, easy there. Yeah.
And
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