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Welcome to the Serial Killer Podcast. The podcast dedicated to serial killers. Who they were, what they did, and... Episode 178. Tonight, I have a very special treat for you, dear listener. As my most loyal followers probably know, this show is not always about serial killer exposes detailing in story format the life and crimes of a serial killer.
Sometimes I have episodes dedicated to the phenomenon of serial murder. This is one such episode. I have the honor of having as a featured guest the esteemed Gillian Lauren, one of the women responsible for bringing Samuel Little to justice. Yes, the Samuel Little.
None other than the premier serial killer in all of North America. Only the Green River Killer ever came close to matching Little's kill count. Sam Little, who went under the radar as a serial killer for decades, has admitted to murdering 93 innocent women. You can rest assured that I will feature a series dedicated to his life and crimes in later episodes.
But in this episode, I have the pleasure of discussing the case and other topics with Gillian Lauren. Gillian Lauren is a writer, storyteller, and adoption advocate with a love for kickboxing. She is the New York Times bestselling author of the memoirs Everything You Ever Wanted and Some Girls, My Life in a Harem, as well as the novel Pretty.
Some Girls, in which she recounts her time spent in the harem of the Prince of Brunei, has been translated into 18 languages. She is also the only journalist so far who have extensively interviewed Sam Little, the most prolific serial killer in North American history.
This experience is what solidified her immense passion for using her platform in the realm of true crime journalism to prioritize the rights of the surviving families of deceased victims. Chronicled in Joe Berlinger's hit Starz documentary series, Confronting a Serial Killer, and in Michael Connelly's podcast Murder Book, The Women Who Brought Down Sam Little,
Ms. Lauren shines a light on the importance of justice for the people who love those lost to violent tragedies. Enjoy.
As always, I want to publicly thank my elite TSK Producers Club. Their names are...
Marilyn, Meow, Missy, Nick, Oakley, Operation Brownie Pockets, Reed, Richard, Russell, Sabina, Skortnia, Scott, Shauna, Sputnik, The Radio, Tim, Tony, Trent, Vanessa, and Val. You are the backbone of the Serial Killer podcast, and without you, there would be no show. You have my deepest gratitude. Thank you.
I am forever grateful for my elite TSK Producers Club, and I want to show you that your patronage is not given in vain. All TSK episodes will be available 100% ad-free to my TSK Producers Club on patreon.com slash the serial killer podcast. No generic ads, no ad reads, no jingles. I promise.
And of course, if you wish to donate $15 a month, that's only $7.50 per episode, you are more than welcome to join the ranks of the TSK Producers Club too. So don't miss out and join now. Jillian Lauren, it is a true honor and pleasure to have you as a guest on my podcast. I am delighted that you would take the time to join me.
Before we delve into the topic of serial murder, which is my forte, can you enlighten my dear listeners a bit about who you are, your background, and what it was that made you such a prominent figure in the true crime scene? Well, I am a very nice girl from Livingston, New Jersey.
here in the U.S. and nice Jewish girl who somehow wound up in a harem in Southeast Asia. And I was in the harem of the Prince of Brunei. I wrote my first memoir about that. And that kicked off my writing career and really
sort of brought me to the artistic voice or space that I live in, which is just heightened observation, really. You know, whether it be crime, I've also written about adoption, you know, I've written about parenting for years. I'm not doing that anymore because now my kids are teenagers. They call to halt to it.
And I was like, fine, great. I'm so sick of parenting. I want to write about crime. And that is really how I started delving into the true crime community. But I had written in many other spheres before. And, you know, this one is certainly sensational, as was the harem. You know, there are sensational aspects.
to the fact that I reached out to serial killer and interviewed him, which I'll talk about in a second. But really, I look at them all in the same way. I just look at it as bringing close attention to the world and seeing sort of how I can translate it and reach toward universal themes. And because I'm an edgy, fringy,
So cliche, but kind of person, you know, I'm always feeling for the edge. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bite when something exciting comes up. And this serial killer, Samuel Little, came up.
I was writing a mystery novel. I was interviewing Detective Mitzi Roberts, who is a famous homicide detective. She now runs the Cold Case Special Section in LA Robbery Homicide Division. Now, if you're familiar with Bosch or any of these kind of LAPD American TV shows, they're all about Robbery Homicide Division.
It's the very sexy, the ones who handle the high profile cases, the complex murder cases, celebrity cases. So I got this coveted interview with this detective because no one gets this interview. But I knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody. So.
At the very end of it, I asked her what she was most proud of in her career. And she said, well, I'm proud of them all. But I did catch the serial killer ones. And that that was pretty cool. Like the absolute the very end of the watery iced tea. I was just like, oh, my gosh, we buried the lead. What do you mean serial killer? Because they're not common.
They're not common as much as we would be inundated with them in the media because they're fascinating. They represent many things to us and allow us to explore a lot of pieces of our darkness as humanity, as individuals. We get to look at these monsters and either let them vindicate us emotionally or spiritually or really give a good hard look.
at the way that we are the same as the monsters and and also very different so
I was like, well, Detective Roberts, do you mind if I go home and research this? Because she said, you know, they popped in for three murders in Los Angeles. She said, there are many more. I knew it. There are many more across the country. I mean, they had eyewitnesses. They had living victims. They had...
trial after trial in which they failed to indict or he was acquitted, you know, or he served 18 months for kidnapping and assault when it was attempted murder and the woman happened to live when she was dumped in a trash pile in San Diego. So it's a tough case to talk about succinctly. And I could go on and go on. But basically,
I said, all right, if there are all these murders, well, I'm a journalist, right? And I'm a big, loud, take up space kind of, you know, I wrote a book about a Muslim dictator. I'm not, you know, it's hard to scare me. I'm like, I doubt I'll get as many death threats. But I said, I'm going to go in there. I'm getting this guy talking.
Like, this is what I do. And it's not just, I mean, I'm most proud of my victim interviews, but I can do a good adversarial interview too. And I was like, if anyone can get a narcissist and a sociopath talking, I can. I mean, I grew up with one. My father's apparently, I'm not a diagnostician.
but I would say rather a pathological narcissist, you know, and followed that up with, of course, a series of, well, I mean, sultans and pretty pathological narcissists. So I just feel like I had this unique skill set also from being such a survivor. Really, I, you know, I have a nervous giggle that
can get on people's nerves or feel like I'm being glib about serious subjects or something. But sometimes when you think that, you know, I have to look at myself here on this Zoom and go, wow, like that's you talking about your life here. Going into the men's maximum security prison and interviewing him. And it took me six months to get in.
And Detective Roberts gave me her blessing. They said they always thought it was an underreported case. They would love it. And my only idea was to bring some heat to it. Because serial killers, you know, three, you're a serial killer. It's a totally random distinction. They made up at the BSU at the FBI. Three victims makes you a serial killer. But, you know, obviously they're more like...
there are different implications to that or ideas that we have about that but you know as detective robert said to me she's like i said why do you think it was underreported she was like well you know all these other things were happening at the time in the news cycle you just don't know but three like you just don't get a lot of media attention she's like now five they start to care
And I was like, wow, I'm so like kind of blown away and disgusted by this. And I'm fascinated by this topic. I always have been. I've been fascinated with criminal deviance. I've never had an apologist dance about true crime.
Everyone's like, we're not focused on the killer. We're focused on the victims. And, you know, I did absolutely both. Like I said, I'm most proud of my victim interviews. And I have no apologies for being fascinated in crime and serial killers and murder because it is their stories with high stakes built in. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm very glad you said that. I mentioned in my podcast over and over again that I think the victims get far too little focus
from media and podcasters such as myself and novels and movies and so on. But at the same time, it's important to acknowledge that serial killers and other killers and criminals that do extreme things are fascinating because they represent something about humanity in general. And there's nothing immoral about being fascinated by that.
So, yeah.
The serial killers who get the attention are the sexy ones who killed the white girls. And that's exactly what I talk about in my book. So I think there's a way to both. Like, I always aim to entertain.
with my work. But, you know, I write things in my book, my book, Behold the Monster, which you can pre-order right now. And it's coming out next April. That is about my three-year relationship with Sam and how I wound up, you know, securing confessions that actually solved murders at the end of the day, which is highly unusual.
But yeah, you know, I write chapters from the perspective of victims. Like I, I take that kind of license because I did such deep delves into their lives and talk to their children and their parents and, you know, looked at these broken, you know, these like broken domino effect stories.
of murder in a family, you know, and senseless murder like this and unsolved murders, you know, and missing persons, you know, and watch them reconcile themselves and be there with them when they're, you know, hearing about it, like learning what happened to their relative. And, you know, it's been such a tremendous privilege
And also, you know, I'm interested in the neuroscience.
and interested in the diagnostic aspect, you know, the dark triad, you know, the Machiavellian narcissism and antisocial personality disorder, the psychopath, you know. And we all have questions about this stuff. I think we do. And the question I get at like every party for my kids
kids from the parents and every is just like why why why why why why and You know, I think I take a deep dive into that and I have answers from different places as to why and they're all different so, um
Yeah, I think that that is also what you do. Yes? Very much so. I recognize... Let's take on the why question. Is that the one you get the most? Yes, exactly. Every time I talk to someone and the topic of my podcast arises, it doesn't take long for them to ask, well, why serial killers? Why do you talk about serial killers? Why are you fascinated by serial killers?
And I often answer, well, probably you are fascinated by serial killers because you have watched Silence of the Lambs. You have watched Hannibal. You have watched American Psycho. You have watched many of these movies, probably. You have read the books.
Michael Connelly, the man that I noticed you had the pleasure of being interviewed by on his podcast. Michael Connelly is a mentor of mine. And he was kind enough actually to let me coach his detectives. So Detective Mitzi Roberts is his character, Renee Ballard. And Detective Rick Jackson...
is my favorite. I always call him, I always call him, he's my cop crush. He's Harry Bosh. Right. He is the Harry Bosh. Yeah, he's the Harry Bosh. You know, and he's like golfing with Connelly now. And he's got a big white walrus mustache. And he helped me. Like Harry Bosh, Rick Jackson, Detective Rick Jackson, who's historic like in
pushing the work on cold cases. Because it's so easy to just, I mean, if you've ever seen robbery homicide divisions, like hanging files of cold cases, it could knock you over with a feather. There are just thousands and thousands and thousands. And I mean, I have a number somewhere just not coming up in my head, but you get the idea. Anyway, Rick.
Yeah, it took me around downtown and walked around with me and Watts and we looked at the spaces and we looked at the maps I had and we looked at the confessions and he kind of taught me how to think through it.
Right. And also is interesting because I'm very like, like I said, I can get into anyone's back door and go. I mean, I think that sounded bad, but I can. How about their side door? And like say and like I can just knock and get in somehow and get people talking. Right. Rick's a cop.
Like he's still got his like badge. He's a reserve cop now, you know? But he just like walks right up, puts his arm on a fence and is just like, "Hey!" Flashes his badge. "What's up? How long you lived here? What was over there in 1987?" And like, we'll just start talking, but he's also as charming.
Like, it's just such a different approach. And it was really, it was really a gift and it was incredible. And as ruinous as this story was to me, and it was, it truly was. And I'm finishing it up now. I'm like organizing the photos for the book. I'm insisting that, you know, we have victim photos.
And I have all the unsolved, all the information about the unsolved. And check out my TikTok, Jillian Lauren author. I'm posting missing person and, you know, unsolved confessions of Sam's. And one thing that's really interesting about Sam is that he was an artist. So he drew his victims.
particularly during his confession process. So I have the photo, I have photos of these drawings, both that he gave to me. I have over 100 of his pieces of his artwork, I know. And that you can find on the FBI website, FBI.gov, and they take any tips about Sam as well.
And they have a list of different jurisdictions too, if you suspect. Yes, and regarding, you mentioned you have a hundred pieces of his artworks. He has admitted, as far as I could tell from the limited information online, - to 93 murders. - Right.
Do you believe, but he's not convicted of 93, of course. He's only convicted of, I don't know, six or seven deaths or something? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Well, it depends on what you're talking about. But closed cases are close to 60. Okay, close to 60. Right, right, right. Right. I was wrong about that. But still, I mean, there's a difference between 60 and 93. Yeah, right, right. 43 is still unsolved. That's what I say in all my...
And do you believe that he's telling the truth when it comes to the 93? Yes, I do believe he's telling the truth. I don't believe it's 100% accurate. My personal feeling, and this means nothing, but the first number he ever told me was 86.
he said around 86 and this was before anyone else was talking to him it was before the circus it was when i felt things were like much more in-depth and honest in our conversations and i was the only one talking he didn't have all these fans the story hadn't broken yet so it was just me and texas ranger james holland
were, who was, I mean, that's a whole other story, who's working with the FBI and the Department of Justice also to get a series of confessions from him. We sort of converged, Jim Holland and I converged at the same time on Sam. But when he was really honest, you know, he said 86, you know, give or take a couple, there was a time, like when he was on crack,
I've really studied the LA murders and a couple of Florida murders more than anything else, mostly because I'm here. I have relationships here. I have relationships with law enforcement. I can give the guys a call at noon division and be like, hey guys, I'm coming down to your area. And they're like, what? Can I curse on your show? Of course you can. They're like, Jillian, why you gotta be such a fucking idiot all the time?
They're like, "We're sending a car for you." And I'm like, "If you send a car for me, no one in the world will ever speak to me ever again. Don't you dare. I do not hang out with you ruffians." But I can, I have those kind of connections. And that is like, you know, I can get them to help me and look. And because I've worked so like respectfully,
Right. You know, like work so respectfully with law enforcement and that's like a whole skill. Although the FBI would say differently because I had a little fight with them. I do know a ton about the L.A. cases. They're not unsolvable. They're just really hard.
And if I can wind back just a little bit, - and I'm trying not to be offensive in any way, but... - Well... - You have to tread so carefully. - I won't worry about it. I spent three years talking to Samuel Little. - You mentioned the emphasis on the victims, - and I've read that you have a tremendous dedication to them, -
seeing justice and their surviving families seeing justice. But the case has not been very much featured in the media. It's surprisingly unknown in the American psyche. And when I looked at the case at first glance, it seems to me that most of the women were prostitutes. Is that correct?
Most, not all, almost all women of color, though not all, but certainly in marginalized communities, some homeless, some struggling with addiction issues, mostly prostitutes. He absolutely consciously picked women he knew would not be missed and that the cops wouldn't spend very much time on.
Exactly. It wasn't just the cops. He was acquitted by a jury of his peers. You know, that's us. I just always want to remind everyone of that. You know, it wasn't Sam who was just dismissing this marginalized population of women. It was law enforcement and it was the rest of us who want the documentaries. Why is Sam not known? Well, he's a black man for one. He was kind of an ugly old man. My
My babysitter said the other day, he looked like a baked potato. I was like, you didn't see him when he was young. And also, like, you didn't see him in person in action. But yeah, he's not like, he's not a sexy serial killer. All right. And these are not sexy victims. I mean, certainly one or two were pretty like wild and
artistic and fabulous and sexy and some were just moms in their sweats you know and did he uh did he have a modus operandi or did he uh okay so in the los angeles trial what they established as his mo is uh and i think this is really important
And also the reason the FBI and the DOJ were so involved with this is because they're pushing the VICAP system, which is the Violent Criminal Apprehension System. And right now it's voluntary in the U.S., but it's how you would connect behaviorally
If you say, oh, we can't solve this crime, it looks like a sexually motivated serial killer, we're going to put it in this database. Maybe behaviorally it will check not just DNA, but check with someone that comes up in another state. Problem is, it's a voluntary system. They don't have to enter it. And I mean, when you're a cop and you've already done your long day, do you enter it?
something voluntarily, maybe if cold cases are your thing. And that is how they got him. I mean, for a number of these later ones. But yeah, you know, he's a Black man who killed Black women for the most part. Prostitutes, people like to sort of separate themselves from
These victims, they don't feel like their daughters. They don't feel like their sisters, I guess, sometimes in the viewing population. You know, true crime is now like actually really diversifying. But it was a whole lot of white ladies watching true crime. That's the demographic. Yes. The demographic for me is me here. Yeah.
It's quite surprising when I see the demographic breakdown of my show. It's quite a large majority of women that are listening. That doesn't surprise me at all. I look at that as an extension of how few people know that only women read novels.
like novels were, novels were dimes to our trash. You know, when the Brontes were writing, you know, novels were for women. And I sort of feel like, like,
Jane Eyre was for women like true crime is, you know, it's just like way of sort of both imagining your greatest fear and giving you a chance to come to terms with it. And it sort of makes you feel powerful. I mean, at least for me, it does because I'm working in the sphere now. So now I'm like, I have a voice. I can get this out. I have no excuse to feel hopeless.
But going back to what we started out with, modus operandi... - Oh, his MO! I'm sorry. Okay. So, here's one of the big problems of identifying Sam through cold case evidence, is that he doesn't leave a rape kit. So Sam very rarely had intercourse of any kind with his victims.
The LAPD called him the choke and stroke killer when they were investigating him because he what he liked to do is strangle women and jerk off on them.
And I suppose I could put that more politely, but that's his M.O. And what he would do is pick them up in his car. They were largely prostitutes. So, you know, he didn't really have to kidnap them or assault them to get him in the car. His cars are very important to him. And they were really his killing field. He usually killed the women in the car and dumped them.
somewhere beside the road. I mean, he tried to bury the first one, it was too hard. And then he decided no one cared anyway. So he dumped them in a pile of tires or an upside down barrel like Agatha White Buffalo, which was one of the crimes that helped solve. I'm really proud of that one. And that was the detail I got. And that was the one that they were able to find a case that matched.
So what he would do would be he would either be in a already sexual, you know, exchange with them or he would fight them. He would box them. He was a boxer. He was a middleweight boxer. And if they fought back, he'd give them a pop in the head. There are different different ideas about this in the media, whether he always just knocked them out, you know.
I think not. And just based on what I've looked at, like that either happened or didn't. He'd scrap with them if he fought and if they fought. And otherwise, I think he would just strangle them and he would strangle them and ejaculate on them. So the evidence is on the clothing.
Most likely. And, you know, some places are able to hold that evidence and some places aren't. And some places, you know, he worked all across the country for 30 years. He was arrested every other day. I'm not kidding. He was arrested all the time as a petty criminal.
He traveled around the country with a girlfriend who was 15 years older than him. And, oh, 30 years older than him. Traveled around the country with, yeah, 30 years older than him. Famous shoplifter. Traveled around the country with her for 15 years. Everyone says she didn't know what he was doing. But she would, like, hose the car out in the morning. And they would shoplift by day and he'd go out and murder by night.
And he worked along, usually along the 10 freeway across the US, you know, states like
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And yeah, and the M.O. is strangulation and manual ejection, ejaculation on the victim in his car and then drop them somewhere in a trash heap uncovered. Do you know if he strangled them from the front with his hands or did he do it from behind with his arm? Mostly from the front.
And so, you know, he he liked to crack a high bone. So when you strangle someone, there's there's a bone here. It looks like a wishbone. Yeah, that's how he described it to me. Actually, he said, do you know, like, you know how it sounds like when you crack a wishbone? And I was like, he's like, that's what it's like. Yeah. So mostly that. But sometimes you need to chase them. And in that case, you know that he would use an armbar.
I see. It's a thing I'm going to say to my listeners again. I like to repeat it in my podcast because media, unfortunately, especially fiction media, has a tendency of portraying strangulation as merciful, as something that is painless and a soft way of killing. And of course, that is very wrong.
It is one of the most horrific and most painful ways you can kill someone. It's extremely. It is so personal, you know, I mean, he wanted to look in their eyes when they understood that they were dying. It is so painful. It can go on for so long. And Sam's whole thing was letting them come back.
strangling them, letting them come back, strangling them, letting them come back. He attempted CPR on some of them post-mortem because he wasn't done yet. Exactly. There we go. If there was a night that he killed them too quickly and he didn't get to ejaculate, he'd go find another one. There were a couple of nights that he had two victims in the same night. Yeah. Yeah. Strangulation is not...
quiet. It's not slow. And it is, it's, it's just terrifying. I mean, he, you know, I have the things that like, you know, the last words that came out of these women's mouths that was another thing that was important to me about doing these interviews with Sam and really, really digging into them was I didn't want him to be their last witness.
Like as hard as it was to hear these details and push and push, you know, like what did Denise say? And did Denise cry? And, you know, you know, and then have get to have people's kids say to me, what did my mother say? And like, I know the answer. It is, it's atrocious. It's not merciful and it's not fast.
No, it's absolutely terrible. And as you mentioned with the cracking of the bone, that can cause internal bleeding. So you drown in your own blood. In addition to, of course, the wound, the internal wound that opens up, it's very painful.
Very traumatic. So I always make a point about the strangulation killers, that they are actually not the kind ones. Dennis Nielsen, if you heard of him, a very famous serial killer from Scotland, he often strangled his victims. And he was known as the kindly killer because he strangled his victims. But of course, he was far from it. He was a very, very brutal, evil man who caused suffering and pain.
Samuel Little, as you explain, he reminds me in many ways about the number two most prolific serial killer in America, Gary Ridgway. Very much so, yes. Although Gary Ridgway was not intelligent. I mean, he was intelligent in that he got away with murdering prostitutes, but Sam was extraordinarily intelligent.
And, you know, Gary Ridgway was simple and I think really believed himself when he said, you know, I thought I was just helping you guys out to the police, you know, getting rid of these like the scourge of prostitutes. And Sam was slick, right?
Sam, you know, could pick up like any reference and would surprise you and then act like a big dummy. Like, oh, I don't know. You know, and his cousin was Malcolm X. Second cousin was Malcolm X. Yeah. Earl Little. Yeah. Reynolds, Georgia. And I said to him once, I was like, what do you think about your cousin?
And he was like, well, I think he died for what he believed in, you know. And I met the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And I thought he was a liar and a murderer and a crook, too. And I was like, I think you're not wrong. And also, what do you think about your cousin dying for what he believed in? He's stupid.
Good thing to do. I said, well, is there anything you'd die for? And he was like, you, I would die for you. Shut up. Oh yeah. I was his, I got a lot of criticism about, uh, from the FBI and everyone who was listening to all the conversations I had with him, you know,
I mean, I just heard gossip back, really. And then I had one level falling out with them. You know, they sort of criticized my rapport with him. I mean, it was okay for, like, the guy detectives to go in there and be like, hey, man, like, slap him on the back. Like, you know, I mean, you're important. You are important. They're doing the same thing I'm doing. It just sounds different coming out of my mouth, you know? But they're like, who's the fattest bitch you killed? Come on. Tell me, you know?
And like, of course, those people are not like that. Those are, you know, like I met a bunch of them. Like they're, I mean, you know, many of them are darling and helpful. Talk to me about cases. And, but, you know, when I go in there and I go, oh, Mr. Sam, you know, don't be so naughty. And they're like, you're a slut. And I'm like, am I?
Or did I just get his whole story? Exactly. I mean, like I'm playing, you know, it's a sociopath. Like it's a serial killer. It's sexually motivated sociopath. You're talking to someone with essentially no empathy, incredibly intelligent and everything he's doing is a transaction. And that's the most important thing you need to understand is
Everything's a transaction.
So you're going to have to make it worth it for him. And like my aunt said to me, who is a famous psychiatrist over at Harvard and Mass General, she said, when I said, what's it like to be around like a role psychopath, like a killer psychopath, you know? And she was like, she's like, you don't know what you're in for basically. But she said, I can, you know, we can talk about the hair psychopathy. We can talk about all that. She said, but,
How I tell if I'm around a psychopath is how it feels. And it feels like they're stealing the shirt off my back. And at the same time, I know that they're stealing the shirt off my back because they're telling me they're stealing the shirt off my back. And yet I inexplicably feel compelled to give them the shirt off my back. And that was just exactly what it was like.
And it was like an abyss that you just can't win. And you just I was like, OK, what's the shirt cost? If you're going to steal the shirt off my back, what's it going to cost me? You know, and my first answer to that was I just want this article. Right. That's what it costs. But then I start to see that, like, you know, I'm getting these confessions that I had almost an immediate hit with Agatha White Buffalo.
With my first set of confessions, I got a call from the Texas Rangers saying, Jillian, we found her. And I was like, what? We found her? And he was like, yes, Jillian, we found her. And like that moment, then that became the price of a shirt, you know? And then I wanted the book and then I, you know, so I don't know, maybe I'll be paying for this shirt for the rest of my life. And if we, if I can ask you, because I,
as i said samuel little has been showcased rather frugally by the mainstream media compared to
serial killer superstars like Jeffrey Dahmer, BTK and Ted Bundy. I also think Sam just confessed, so give it a sec. And my book hasn't come out yet either. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is true. But he has been going on for 30 years. Well, I mean, it was only 2013 that the trial was. And then the confessions just happened a few years ago. So, yeah.
But still, I mean, Ted Bundy, the media circus was huge. Right, of course. Yeah. Yeah. During the professions. It was also newer to people and they were more like, oh, such a nice boy. What? Yeah, exactly. Boy mask escaped so many times.
But to finish my question, when you went into prison to meet him, what was your first impression of him as a person? And what was your impression of him physically as a person, but also psychologically as a person when you started talking to him? What was your impression?
My first day, I went to this, you know, one of the largest maximum security facilities in the United States. And as you know, we really, really like our prisons here. There are over 3,000 men in this facility. And I waited for over 11 hours that first day. And it was 110 degrees in the shade, which I have been fact-checked. And apparently, it was only 109.
And I was like, "Fuck, it's 110!" But I waited 11 hours and then it was exactly, you know, it was Silence of the Lambs. That's always been sort of my favorite movie and I related to Clarice and fantasized about things like that and getting a chance to do that, but I didn't really expect it to go that way. It's never like the movies.
but it kind of was. So you know, you walk into the cage, thing closed behind you, the next cage opens in front of you, you go into the, and then it's like this endless walk through a desert that feels like hell into the prison. And I thought like every single movie you've ever seen, except for "Science of the Wild," that I was going to be behind a piece of glass
with a phone, right? That's how you meet violent criminals, generally. In the family room with like babies, kids playing with Legos, a photo booth, vending machines all around. Although I do have some scumbag friends who prepared me for this and told me, do not show up without rolls of quarters because if your person shows up without quarters, you're not cool. So you have to show up with quarters in a clear plastic bag and they can use them for the vending machine.
So I got just like a bunch of shit, like little Debbie cakes and Cokes and threw it on the table. And I waited and waited and waited and waited and waited and waited. And I was looking at the door where the inmates were lining up behind the red line and leaving the room. Okay, dummy. Did you see anyone come in that door? No. So maybe that's not where he's going to come in. He rolled, he's in a wheelchair. He rolled up behind me.
So I'm like looking at this door over in front of me. He came in from behind me and he just rolled up right next to me. He's like a foot in front of me. And he was just like, you, you, you, you, you're my angel sent me from God from heaven. And I was like,
holy shit. And I looked at him and there was a sense of, um, I mean, it looked like an old man. I didn't feel scared. The whole place smelled so much like microwave burritos. I could, you know, I couldn't like distinguish, um,
Like he had bad breath or anything. It was just like I looked at him and he was so absent. He's got these famous eyes. You know, if you hear people talk about them, everyone talks about his eyes and it's a trait. It's a family trait.
And it's the end, you hear it from his niece, you know, she'll say she married the man with the brownest eyes she could find to like, so that her daughter wouldn't have the slave owner's eyes. But they are these like blue, green, gold, like changes with the blood pressure or with the liquor or whatever. I mean, not with me, but.
That's what I've heard. And but like his eyes are so oddly light and absent. And it's like if you've ever seen a backlot of a movie studio, you know, where they're like, everyone's running around New York and dancing, except they're all facades of the buildings. It's actually very cool. Like outdoor backlots of movie studios. Yeah. Nothing behind anything.
Right. Nothing behind that New York street. You've seen a million times. Right. Right. It's just like, there's nothing behind it, but his facade is really good. Like he's charming. You know, he'll get you in a conversation. The first day he didn't confess. I went back the second day and he knew basically he was going to have to decide.
And because I was like, I'm going to let him bullshit me once, but I don't have this kind of time. I'm missing my kids soccer games. It's a Sunday. I'm up at four in the morning driving out to a shithole in the desert. Like if he's not going to talk, I'm not doing this again. It's too much work for nothing. But I said one more time. So I did it. And by then I was like an old hat. I was like, hey, Brenda. Hey, Carla. Hi, Sister Veronica. Hi, Veronica.
um, and hi sister Veronica, if you're still out there, but anyway, it went on and on for about an hour, and he said he wanted a TV, you can buy him a TV, you know, you can buy him, he's always, he's always trying to get a bunch of shit from the catalog, walking horse catalog, where you can order stuff, he says he wanted a TV, I was like,
I want stuff too, you know? I want to write a book someone's going to buy. So what do you think? Yeah, yeah, that sounds... I was like, no one's paying me to write a book about your innocence. So what do you think? And he said, all right. Or he drummed his really long, these really long fingernails, like claws, drummed them on the table. It was a good move. He liked. And he said, all right, little myth.
What do you want to know? You want to know about the first one? And then he just started talking. And it was like, I was just another cliche, but it was like ice water was like pouring down my head from my entire body. I was like, is this really? Is he confessing murders to me right now? And then I couldn't record because you can't record in a prison in California. Not since Manson. He ruined it for all of us. Scumbag.
But so I'm remembering everything. Like, I'm like, I have to remember every single detail. Well, I can do this. Like I, my father, my father is a gambler. I have much to thank him for. So I know that when I walk into a room, I immediately, you know, I'll know everyone's name at a table and where they were sitting, you know, because my father taught me to know where everyone's sitting because I'm poker.
So I'm mostly bridge, mostly bridge, little bit chess and poker. But that's how I learned these memory games. My father played with me my whole childhood. And so then after I left the prison, I mean,
The first time and certainly when he started talking, you know, I drove to the nearest restaurant, like an Olive Garden or whatever, sat down, wrote down every single thing he said. Just like went through my memory palace, went through my memory games, wrote down every single thing he said. And I called the police.
Fascinating. It's an amazing experience and wonderful that you were able to get him to actually confess and you were thus instrumental in bringing justice to some of these victims. It's a privilege. I mean, motherhood is like the greatest privilege of my life.
solving these deaths, like being able to bring other mothers answers, you know, to bring Alice Duvall's sister an answer, you know, about what happened to her sister. So she, as she said, like, she never has to worry now if she's okay. You know, she's like, I know she is. I know what happened, you know, and it brought their whole family together again to talk about it. So it's been, it's been a tremendous privilege.
I don't think I'm done with it yet, quite like you. Yeah, exactly. And regarding the victims, I mean, he murdered 93 women, at least, or around there. It would be impossible to do all these women justice on a single podcast like this. But have you come to know any of the victims' stories better than others? Can you tell us about one or maybe two victims that really stood out to you?
Oh, yes, certainly. Well, I mean, let me tell you, the murder that I saw from top to bottom is certainly the one that I know the most about and that I've become closest with the family. Although there were many others that I've been closest with the family. But I'll tell you about Alice Denise Duvall. Alice Denise Duvall was raised in Los Angeles. She had two sisters, Debbie and Doris.
Their mother was somewhat impaired, like physically disabled. And I think the sisters had a hard time growing up, wound up in different households. However, they did dance on Soul Train together. I have footage of Alice dancing on Soul Train. And Alice was beautiful.
Big afro. She used to wear these adorable, you know, bell-bottom little outfits her grandmother made for her. She loved Chaka Khan. She was a songwriter. She got involved with the guys from Earth, Wind & Fire.
She started hanging out. I mean, you might make a lot of assumptions about where these women come from or where they start. Alice was hanging out on the Sunset Strip with Richard Pryor. You know, she came from Watts. She was this fabulous thing. And she dragged her younger sister, Debbie, with her one day to the comedy club.
And some scumbag started coming on to Debbie and saying, hey, I'm Richard Pryor's manager. And Debbie said, you know, you ain't Richard Pryor. And so why should I give a fuck? And in fact, get me a cab because you people are no good. Except Alice stayed and Debbie left. Debbie joined the Air Force.
And is now like a very influential person at the Pentagon. And Alice went downhill. And Debbie was stationed overseas and came back and said, please come. Please come and stay with us in Germany, please. All you need to do is go and get your passport. Here's everything you need. But you actually have to go do it.
And then she was stationed. She was stationed over there. She had to go back. And she said she knew it was the last time she'd see her sister. And Alice was 41. She had had a long, hard life. That wasn't, most of Sam's victims were not 25. And yeah, Debbie said she just knew she wouldn't do it. She just knew it was the last time she'd see her. And Sam had seen Alice around the neighborhood.
Alice had just gone downhill with drugs. She had, oh, I'm not supposed to. She has famous baby daddies I'm not supposed to mention. And Sam picked her up one day from where her girlfriend lived on 55th and Central. She was definitely a prostitute.
She was, I think, an irregular prostitute. You know, she was prostituting when she needed it or had somebody taking care of her. And Sam, you know, took her for a ride. They went and got their drugs. He always made sure they got their drugs. They got taken care of. Sometimes he'd buy them a dress or shoplift them a necklace or something. Sometimes he'd take them to dinner. But Alice, he drove and...
He said he drove her down central and left her from 55th south on central and left her under an overpass. Now, there are only two over central ends. There are only two overpasses and none of them matched what he said, how he described them.
And, and I had overheads from that time period. I had everything there was, it just didn't match. And I brought them in and showed him, although you're not allowed to bring maps to the prison. And, you know, and he would just get really angry at me about it and say it was South on Central to the beach. And the beach is West, not South. Hello, West Coast.
So I finally realized that he had made a turn and he was talking about a city called Long Beach, not the actual beach, not the Pacific Ocean. Right. A city called Long Beach. So I did that drive and found every single thing he said. And we found an article about.
That detailed exactly. Once we opened up the field of like how long he had driven and gave up on the idea that everything he said was perfect or he had a photographic memory, which is a falsehood, which is largely a falsehood in general. It's kind of a myth, photographic memory. But I mean, he had certainly a remarkable memory. But I was talking to him when I found the spot.
I had him on the phone and I was like, Sam, do you think it's possible you drove to Long Beach? And he was like, I think you did a good job. It was like, yes, I think I drove to Long Beach. And then we found the article and then Sam had remembered the name was Alice. He remembered almost no one's name, but he remembered Alice. He thought that was a pretty name. So I called Rick Jackson.
And I said, I think I have it. I think I have it. I think I have the article. I think I have the spot. I think I have it. And I think it was Sam. And he said, hang on a second. I'll call you back. And he called Long Beach PD for me, which always helps to have a cop on your side. And he called me back and he said, are you sitting down? They do have the case. It is still open.
The name is Alice Denise Duvall. And I was like, oh, my God, Rick. And he was like, yeah. I was like, well, of course, it's not, you know, it's not a solve and they're going to have the DNA and the da, da, da, da. He's like, Jillian, you pretty much solved a murder. Like, what are the chances her name is Alice? And so...
That's Alice. That's the one I'm closest to. I'm closest to her family because Black Lives Matter and like all kinds of chaos was happening in Los Angeles.
And the surrounding cities, like the detectives were all in uniform and it wasn't getting done. And I felt like who knows how long her family is going to live or who's still alive. And I would normally never do a family notification, but it was so like I had already talked to the detectives many times. I knew they had a partial DNA match. They just needed to run the YSTR and now it is closed. But so I called her sister.
And I, you know, and I said, your sister's come up in my research. And I just wanted to know if you'd like to know what I found. And she said, give me a minute. Like, she was like, I'll call you back in a couple of days. And it's always, that's always a big risk to take as a journalist because I could have ambushed her too, you know. But like, I wanted to give her the space to say, no, I don't want to hear about my sister.
I just felt it was respectful. And I was about to tell her that her sister was killed by a serial killer, you know? And, and what we did was we had a long series of conversations. Like she called me a couple of days later, said I've talked to my daughters, talked to my husband. I'm like, I'm ready to hear until I say I'm not, you know? And so then I gave her like the first bit and she was like, okay, I've had enough.
You know, and then and I, you know, and then I would talk to her in a few days. And it was like, then they had a family reunion out here and were able to have Alice's funeral, you know, and I met with them all. And it just all of the horribleness of being around Sam. It I mean, who's to say it's worth it until the end of the you don't know and ever until you reach the finish line. Right. But that was worth the time.
That was worth the kind of blood I spilled on the page, I like to think of it as. Anyway, that's one story. That's Alice. Fantastic. Thank you very much for sharing that. We are closing in on our allotted time. I can finish off by ending on a positive note, as you like to do, I understand. You have a book coming out called Behold the Monster.
It's about Samuel Little. The title reminds me of the Blake painting, Behold the Great Red Dragon, made famous in... Yes. That's interesting that you got that. It's not a totally unintentional reference. Can you tell us a little bit about your book? Well, my book...
Starts from it. I mean, it tells a story of this serial killer's life, you know, from childhood to the end of his life. It also talks about my relationship with him, the interviews that I did, and then the cross country experience.
fact-finding sleuthing journey I went on, you know, to find out more about him, to find out more about these murders, more about the victims. And I also follow the original investigation where they finally caught him that, you know, it features Detective Mitzi Roberts, Rick Jackson, all these famous LA detectives on this manhunt.
for this serial killer they were worried was just going to slip into the night. He was a transient. So, you know, the book is both about the original manhunt where he got caught, which has some just badass detective characters and also some very bad ones. It's a great cast of characters. It's also about the confessions about Texas Ranger James Holland and
who got this set of confessions and ranged the whole circus of all the detectives coming in from all over the country. And Jim Holland and I had a very complicated relationship that I hope people will find as interesting as I did. Law enforcement and the press generally don't always see eye to eye.
And so it is a book about Sam Little, is a book about his victims in depth. And it examines the psychology of a serial killer. And also, you know, my experience as a civilian dropped into this crime world. It sounds absolutely fascinating. And it's coming this next April? Next April.
And where can we pre-order? You can pre-order Amazon now. And please go to my website, www.jillianlauren.com. And you can get on a mailing list to get updates about, you know, different appearances and things that I'll be doing. I have some very exciting things coming up.
And you can look at my TikTok. Please, please do. This is where I'm really... I was very reluctant, but I am really trying to get eyes on these missing persons. So that's Jillian Lauren, author. And then I'm Jillian Lauren on Twitter and Jillian Lauren on Instagram. So please follow me. And there'll be more Sam Little, more serial killers. I mean, definitely...
There might be one I'm going to interview soon. That's all I will say. Exciting. Thank you so very much for joining me tonight, Ms. Barron. It has been a pleasure talking to you. And to you. And so it is, dear listener, that this special interview episode come to an end. As promised, I will continue the expose on Edmund Kemper in the next episode. So, as they say in the land of radio, stay tuned.
Finally, I wish to thank you, dear listener, for listening. If you like this podcast, you can support it by donating on patreon.com slash theserialkillarpodcast, by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, facebook.com slash theskpodcast, or by posting on the subreddit theskpodcast. Thank you, good night, and good luck.
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