Interview with Alan R. Warren
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Welcome to the Serial Killer Podcast. The podcast dedicated to serial killers. Who they were, what they did, and how.

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Alan R. Warren is a distinguished academic, author, radio, and podcast host. His novels include serial killers around the world, confessions of murder, the killing game, and more. Tonight, I have the pleasure of having him on the Serial Killer Podcast for an interview. Mr. Warren.

Welcome so much to the show. You are a man of an impressively varied background. Can you please expand on who you are and what your background is? Well, thank you for having me on the show. I've been a writer and broadcaster for several years. I started out in Phoenix and worked around, and now I'm up on Seattle and NBC News Talk Radio.

And we do serial killers and mysteries of the world. And I've written nine books now. So quite the extension. I never planned on writing. It just sort of happened. Really? And I will get back to all of your books. But before we go to that, may I ask, how old are you? 56 now.

56 years old. So with that age, you may actually remember the serial killer superstars of the 70s and 80s. Is that right? Oh, yeah. As they unfolded, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. So many of them. Actually, the late 60s onwards. Right. There are only a handful of the really big names, but...

So I really do try to space them out, and we are going to go a bit in depth on at least one of them tonight. But before we do that, can you list to me and my dear listeners all of your books in addition to the ones I mentioned in my introduction? Well, I've done The Killing Game, which is the story of Rodney Alkella, that's the game show killer.

And that's been made into a documentary in the States as well from the book. I've written Beyond Suspicion and Above Suspicion and Bloodthirst and Deadly Betrayal. And you mentioned Confessions and The Last Man Standing is the newest book. It just came out maybe two weeks ago. Fascinating. The Last Man Standing, what is it about?

Last Man Standing centers around a man named Jack Daniel McCulloch. And what happened in 1957 was a six-year-old girl went missing and was found brutally murdered about six months after she went missing. This Jack Daniel McCulloch was a neighbor who was eventually convicted of her murder. About three years ago,

He was released, and he was actually pronounced innocent. Not only was it overturned, but they have the evidence that he didn't do it. And the story centers around his life from his point of view, because so much was written about what a bad man he was. And they made a movie about him, several books, and made him into a monster.

And now that we know he didn't do it, I thought somebody should write something from his point of view, giving you his story, because he's an innocent man that was put away for so long. I think I'm going to have to read that book because such fates are truly horrifying.

I mean, one thing is to be innocently convicted of serious crime, but when you are convicted of child rape and murder, that is the worst thing you can do, and your life is ruined. So I can only imagine the terrible life he must have led up until his exoneration. Yes, yeah. Actually, I dedicated a whole chapter to some of his experiences

things, like the things that happened to him in prison, because he was an ex-cop as well. So they really didn't like him. From day one, other inmates were trying to kill him. He was stabbed in the eye, stabbed in the ear. He was constantly under attack. Unfortunately, the guards at the time would put him in with people that wanted to kill him

On purpose, because the guards didn't like him either, being an ex-cop and a child killer. So he had a really, really tough time. I can imagine. There is a prison term called KOS, I think. Kill on Sight, regarding people who commit crimes against women and children. Yeah, yeah. It's quite awful, because the guards are even...

kind of promoting it, purposely setting up people like him so that they would get at least badly beaten, if not killed, and kind of a torture in a way, which is terrible when you have it happening to someone that's innocent. Yeah, it's very odd for me as a Norwegian to see all the different prison documentaries and TV shows about how American prisons are. They are

quite foreign, literally, to our Scandinavian humane prison system where the guards and the prison authorities are very much responsible for the prisoners' safety and well-being. But in America, it seems that it's every prisoner for himself and the guards are simply there to protect themselves and to make sure no one escapes. Yeah, I think the prison system in the U.S. has become...

so so Busy there's so many people in prison that what it really is is housing your housing of so many people that it's not really about rehabilitation or about Any sort of support for someone that's in prison. It's just housing and what happens happens You're warehousing human beings exactly well

Let us move on to something a bit more in tune with this podcast. So my main reason for wanting to have you on the show is your book, The Killing Game. It is, as far as I can assess, about the world-famous serial killer Rodney Alcala, the game show killer.

I plan on doing a special series on him in the future. But let's give my listeners a tasty morsel of who this guy is. Who is Rodney Alcala and what were his crimes? Rodney Alcala was, it seemed like an average American kid in the 60s. He grew up and he went to school and did everything pretty good. He was a good student.

good person, had a good family, good middle-class family, no issues, and all is well. After he graduated, he went into the army, and again, he was doing a good job, thought of as quite well. And all of a sudden, after his father died, he disappeared, and he showed up AWOL at his mother's house, and she turned him in, and from that point on,

he become a murderer, a mass murderer. And trying to figure out why exactly is still a question, still a big question, because you have a totally normal person with a normal upbringing, no problems as a child or as a teenager, had girlfriends, was popular, did very well in school.

was even accepted into NYU with Roman Polanski to study film. So good grades, he worked for the LA Times. What made him twist? We don't know. How many he killed? We still don't know. He's been convicted of five to date and charged with three others. But we don't have a total number because they found hundreds of pictures.

of different people in positions of, you know, being photographed, and a lot of them without clothing, in his storage locker. So the NYU has that posted on their website, and they're trying to find out who all of these people are, and if they've been missing, or what's ever happened to them over the time. Exactly. In my view, from what I've read about Alcala,

He is near to be the perfect psychopath. He mimicked the affable, handsome, and slightly buffoonish boy next door to such a degree that he ended up on a game show. He masqueraded as a photography enthusiast, and due to his mannerisms and appearance, managed to entice hundreds of young women to come home with him. There, in the security of his own domain, he raped and murdered dozens of them. Well...

Maybe not dozens, but at least eight, as you say. I believe his actions are mostly due to him being a born psychopath, a human who does not feel sympathy, but does feel empathy and enjoys causing suffering and fear instead of happiness and pleasure, as normal people do. But I might be wrong. Do you have any theories or speculations as to what his motivations were for his actions?

It's really hard to tell. Something happened with his family. After his father died and he came back for the funeral, something happened. I'm not sure what. He stopped talking to his brother and his mother at one time and seemed to go on this rampage. And the problem is most of the people that he killed were quite young, like teenage.

anywhere from 8 to 14 was his popular age. He did kill older, but he had a preference for the young girls. And he would also want to put them through torture. So he would have them tied up and rape them, and then he would choke them until they passed out. And then he would wait till they come to, and then do it all over again.

And then he would do things to hurt them, like burn them, cut them, break different bones in their body while they were still alive. And that's why it was important to me to put that in. I put in the report, the autopsy reports after each victim so that you knew they focused on letting you know that they were still alive while all of this was happening to them.

And an interesting thing is, as he went into it further, he started putting them in positions where they were posed. So one girl, he had her posed in a position facing Marlon Brando, the actor, his door, so that when someone, whoever opened his door, would see the girl rolled over in a position with her legs open so that he would see them.

And they were dead and tortured. So he wanted to advertise it. But having the young girls was the question that was, I'm not sure who he's trying to hurt.

That is very interesting and very reminiscent of several serial killer cases. The first one that comes to mind is, of course, Ted Bundy, who operated in the same era, the 70s. And he, too, had a preference for teenage girls, attractive looking.

Picked them up, kidnapped them, and tortured them, much in the same way as you describe Alcala doing, only Bundy did it in his car, in his Volkswagen Beetle, and out in the woods. And he too strangled them and cut them and burned them and beat them and raped them and eventually killed them.

And as you may know, Ted was very handsome, looked like a movie star, very intelligent, did very well in school, was a psychology major, was looking to study law, was a rising star in the Republican Party.

Like very, very all-American. Men and boys wanted to be him and girls wanted to have him. But underneath all that, he was a sadistic sexual serial killer. And Alcala seems to follow some of the same pathways. So that's very interesting. If I can say another thing that Alcala had that I haven't seen in other serial killers...

is that he would go to different cities. He went to New York and he killed two girls that were in their 30s. And he did it in the same way as the .44 caliber killer who was going on at the time. He also went to Seattle and tried to copy the Green River murderer by killing, we think, two girls.

and same as the Hillside Strangler. A couple of victims that were considered the Hillside Strangler in LA turned out to be Rodney Akeles. So he was imitating other killers in their particular town, and he would also select the age group and the description of the girl that would fit that serial killer so that it would get thrown in under that killer's MO and not him.

So that's when he selected other age groups and other looks and styles. But when he was back home at Newport Beach in that area, it was always the same. He was looking for the 8 to 14, 15-year-old. That is truly fascinating. I did not know that. Yeah. It's one of the most unique things about him.

And as we're going, and why they have the photos up on the website, is there's quite a few girls now that the DNA has hit positive with Rodney Alcala. We're talking about in Wyoming, in Salt Lake, and Texas. And we have to wonder how many of these he did in his travels.

Wow, that is quite horrifying. I mean, when you consider that and consider his age and how long it took before he was caught, I mean, the number of victims could be very, very high. Yeah, actually, the NYPD has it somewhere around 130. They have over 200 pictures posted.

for people to identify, they're throwing estimates, like I said, up to 120, 130. Wow. That would make him the most prolific serial killer in the United States ever. Because Green River, which is the reigning champion, I think he was convicted of 60 or something? Yeah. Yes. Quite high. And Green River, of course, which I will cover in the future, he...

He killed everyone the very same way. Strangled them, raped them, and dumped them by the Green River. While Alcala, as you say, was far more varied in his modus operandi. It's very fascinating. I really do look forward to doing some proper research on him and making it into a special here on the show. So, let's talk a little bit about why he got his nickname, the Game Show Killer. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah, well, what happened was he actually, he got to be on the game show called The Dating Game. In the 70s, that was a very popular show in America.

And it's sort of like The Bachelor is now in a way. You would get him in behind a wall and there'd be three girls that he would get to ask, or it was the other way around because there was three guys and one girl and she would ask questions of these guys and then she would select who she wanted to go on a date. And the game show would send them on a really nice paid weekend, you know, hotel dinner date somewhere.

And so he was on that and he won. The girl selected him. So that was quite, and so did the audience. I mean, if you watch the clips of it, the audience seemed to really like him as well. So he was very popular. He was a good talker, looked good. But afterwards, she wouldn't go on the date with him. She said he was too creepy when they were backstage and talking. He was really creepy, really, um...

a weird character. So she refused to go, even though it was all paid for. So she didn't go on the date. But in return, I have to mention that what happened was he went out and killed a girl that night. Wow. I guess that woman really should be grateful for her very excellent judge of character. Yeah, she's quite relieved now. We talked to her in writing the book, and she just said that he...

give her the shivers. And there was no reason she could pinpoint. He just didn't seem right, as she put it. And she made him nervous enough, or she was so nervous, she wouldn't go on the date, she wouldn't go anywhere with him, and she just wanted to leave the studio. So it's something about him, about his presence or aura,

is what did it because there was no particular word said or anything like that that she could pick out. It's that time of the year. Your vacation is coming up. You can already hear the beach waves, feel the warm breeze, relax and think about...

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I can imagine. Sometimes psychopaths, they are very adept at working in crowds or in informal, superficial settings where they just small talk or are in groups or...

as in a career setting or as you say on a game show and stuff like that because then they can mimic behavior as they have watched others do and can do it quite well but when they need to be up close and personal they struggle more because they really don't know how to be good human being fellow human beings and that often shows and um

That, again, can generate anger and rage in them, which may be what happened to him when he was rejected, since he went off and killed a poor girl. Well, an unusual thing as well was that he had a body in the trunk. At the time, he was at the studio recording the game show as well. So he was in the middle of one of his...

I don't know what you call rages where he was in amongst killing girls when he went to the studio and they recorded the show. So he was a busy man. Holy wow. That is quite extreme. Can you imagine doing something like that? I mean, the sense of, I mean, the arrogance of someone like that, it's mind boggling.

to calmly and quite successfully appear on a nationally broadcasted game show and appear as a very, very handsome, very funny, charming fellow, and at the same time know that you have a corpse in the trunk of your car right outside, and even planning to take the woman you are trying to get on a date and murder her as well. I mean, it's...

It's quite mind-boggling. I did not know that about him. It's very interesting. Thank you. Yeah, he was an interesting person. And the more you research him, the more you find out things. And it's actually quite scary how aggressive he was at killing. And I have to tell you as well, one thing you'll find out is during this whole process, he had a girlfriend and she didn't have a clue

what was going on. She didn't know he was on the game show either? No, she knew he went on the game show, but this happened just when they were first dating. And then afterwards, she started where he would stay at her place all the time. And they were like almost a live-in couple.

And he would go out and start murdering and continue doing this. And that's where he attacked one girl at the beach, one in a park. Then he would fly to Seattle and kill. He would fly to New York and kill. He was doing all this outside of home. She thought he was out looking for a business, that he was going to open up a photography store.

And so he was out scouting, looking for a place to do business in different towns and cities. And that's where she thought he was. And he was in different towns and cities, but he wasn't looking for a shop. He was looking for girls to kill. That is quite scary indeed. And to not know the extent of his crimes, even to this day, is...

It's horrifying and interesting at the same time. And as far as I know, he's been on trial quite recently, hasn't he? Yeah, he's constantly being charged. And there's a real problem with the California law because he's been convicted and sentenced to death, I mean, five times. But what happens is in California when you're sentenced to death, there's an automatic appeal.

So it goes to the Supreme Court of California, and they are against the death penalty. So they've overturned 65 of 73 death penalty cases in California. So his convictions keep getting overturned for the penalty of death. So in some cases, he's been retried three times for the same murder.

And this is a problem. You put the family, you put the victims, you put everybody through this whole trial over and over. And in fact, you know, the family from 1968, we consider his first murder,

you know, got tried three times and you have to think, wow. So their whole life, this stays with them. It's not resolved. You keep having to go to trial to reconvict him just to have him do it again. And then they're finding more and more, of course. And so in some cases, they're charging him. In some cases, they're not. So it depends on the actual prosecutor of the state where they get the hit on his DNA.

It's terrible, especially for the families and victims that need to relive this horrible, tragic, murderous crimes over and over and over. I mean, they deserve to have this matter laid to rest. And I am a very firm believer in life without the possibility of parole. I am, as most Norwegians, very much against the death penalty.

And perhaps his case would have been solved and closed earlier if there wasn't these automatic appeals as it is in the death penalty cases, as you mentioned. Am I correct in that? Oh, for sure. If he was just five life sentences, it would be done. It's over. You don't need to keep going through this.

And, you know, one of his victims from the 60s is still alive. She got away and she had to testify against him again just in 2012, I believe was the last time she was up. But, you know, the terror that these people must live, it's like holding on to the event and reliving it. And the worst part, I haven't even told you the worst part. It gets worse. He actually...

fired his lawyers, and he's representing himself. So in the book too, you'll see like on this third trial here with these five girls, he actually got to question them. So here they are, a victim that lived, that was tortured and raped and left for dead, has to answer his questions in court.

So it's maddening because he's having a good time. When you see the tapes, he shows up to court with a sport jacket on, sunglasses, his hair's all done, and he's acting like he's a rock star, smiling at all the cameras, smiling at all the people, and he's having a good time with it. He makes the jury watch his dating show appearance.

He's having fun with it, and he doesn't care. He just gets convicted again, all five, and nothing's going to happen to him. He's in jail, but he's just going to go through this again and again. And I feel terrible for the victims.

As do I. And to go a little bit back to your latest book, Last Man Standing, and the poor man's fate in that case, where he was an innocent man being tortured in prison because he was charged with killing a kid. I don't think Alcala experiences the same things, does he? Because he is probably on death row or in a maximum security prison. Is that right? Yes.

Yeah, he's on death row, so it is maximum security. And plus, then you're alone. He is in his cell 23 out of 24 hours a day. He's allowed one hour outside in the air, in the field. But with the death penalty, they're all by themselves. In some cases, there's some, how do you say,

People that are challenged mentally that are in there as well. So they put them all in one. And like I said, he's alone most of the time. So he's never under threat of being attacked. Exactly. Which makes this even more unjust. Because if someone deserves a bit of a beating in prison, it's surely Mr. Alcala and not the poor man you mentioned in Last Man Standing, in my opinion anyway. Oh, for sure.

So, let us move a bit forward and go a bit broader. Serial killers are, in general, and surprisingly, the focus of my podcast. And your work certainly covers that, but it also covers a wide variety of other crime subjects.

One of my challenges is that there is a finite amount of serial killers. However, lately I have discovered that more and more fresh new serial killer cases are being reported on, especially in Russia, but also in America. Do you think we're entering a new golden age of serial murder, similar to the one we saw in the late 60s to 80s?

Yeah, there is definitely something going on. And there's also a lot of different type of murders. You notice there's a lot of, in America, a lot of mothers killing their kids and children. So it's varied now. But there's definitely something going on. And I don't quite understand it. I think it's a little different than what we saw in the 70s. It's a different type of mental problem going on.

with people to do this. I can't figure it out yet, and we probably won't until after it's passed. Exactly. It's like, yeah, it's quite ominous. It's like there's sort of a dark mood globally, turning people more and more insane in some way. It's happening, and it's happening everywhere, mostly. I hope it blows over and we can see some lighter things

some later period even though that would mean i would run out of topics to talk about on my podcast that is a small price to pay well i i think in the us too you've noticed a lot more group and mass killings certainly in the last 10 years than normal so there might be a different type of of killing that you'll i mean i mean it's different than a serial killer

But it isn't. The end result is you have a lot of deaths from one person. That's true. You have the mass murders, the school shooters, the people going, quote-unquote, postal.

That's quite unique for America. It doesn't happen as often elsewhere in the world. It's quite unique. A lot of people have a lot of different theories. I see that a lot of people say that the American easy access to guns is the main issue, while others say that it's a mental health epidemic, that there are

So many people struggling with isolation and alienation and psychological issues that they turn violent. But I don't know. But it's clearly a very, very serious topic that seems to only get worse as time goes by. Oh, yeah, certainly. I don't know. It's probably easy access to guns probably helps.

The amount of shootings and that, it's not hard to get the guns, so it makes it easier. But, you know, in all countries, we have mental issues. You know, it doesn't matter what country you're in, you have people with problems. And you have people under stress, and you have people that hate other groups for whatever reason. You have all of that.

And that's equal in all countries. The only difference with the U.S. is the amount of shootings. I mean, with four or more people being shot, the U.S. this year has had one a week average. Nobody else does it like that. Yes, it's very alarming. And I really hope that you guys manage to fix it somehow.

But I do not have any idea how to do it. And Europe is quite rife with problems of our own. I mean, in France, we have a wave of terror going on as we speak. Just last night, we had a fatal mass shooting at a Christmas fair in Strasbourg. So and that's the...

I think it's the fifth or sixth mass shooting from terrorists there in just under a year or something. So it's something going on in Europe as well. But luckily, there are very few serial killers that are active. Although in England, there have been some cases that have started to pop up. So I think it's a global phenomenon, definitely.

But let's talk about something a little bit lighter. We are nearing the end of this very fascinating interview, but I would like to ask you the same as I ask all my guests on this show. Have you listened to my podcast? And if so, what did you think about it? Very interesting. You have a good way with speaking about true crime and serial killers, murder.

Thank you. I'm a really big fan of the topic of serial killers. It's something that has stayed with me since I was quite young. It started, as with many others, I suspect, with serial killer fiction, not just true crime. For example, my love of the topic began when I read Neil Gaiman's fantastic graphic novel called Sandman, The Doll's House.

In this story, we are presented with a roadside hotel where there is a cereal convention with a C, not an S, just starting up. The attendees are, however, not breakfast cereal tradesmen, but instead call themselves collectors. I read it first way back in the late 1990s. Do you have any serial killer fiction or other crime novels that you can recommend? Just mine. Okay.

Actually, you know, there's so many. I don't do much in the fiction. Nonfiction, I listen and read a lot of that and a lot of history. That's where I get my influence from. Exactly. And on the topic of serial killers, do you have one book or do you have several? Oh, that I listen to or that I write? That you write. Right.

Well, in the serial killers, I've covered probably one, two, probably covered three serial killers. And the rest were just normal killers, single. All right. And who were those killers? Oh, well, the Rodney Alkella, of course, which we talked about. And one that I did just recently was on Russell Williams, right?

which was the colonel in the Air Force in Canada. He had the highest security clearance. He was the one that flew the Queen of England or any dignitary. He had really high clearance. And he was serial killing. He was killing girls, and some of them even in his basement in his house. He was a very bizarre one. He would break into their house

and tie them up and again, he would, but he would tie them up and set up a camera. What he would do was put on their clothing and film himself wearing all of their different outfits. And he would stay there in their house for eight, 10 hours. Some of them he raped, some of them he didn't. Some of them he killed and some of them he didn't. It was a very strange, another strange serial killing.

And the other one I wrote was Bloodthirst. And that was about the vampire serial killer in Canada as well, in Montreal in the 1970s. And he would, again, he would, him, he would actually date the girls. He would get to know them and then he would attack them. He would kill them and drink their blood.

and raped them at the same time. And we know of five that he got convicted of in Canada. We think there was a few others, but we still don't know for sure. That is extremely valuable for me because those are two of those three I have not heard of before. That's rare. I usually stay on top of

the various serial killers in North America, but those two I have not heard about. So that will surely be separate episodes here on the Serial Killer Podcast. Thank you so much. Well, thank you.

Okay, so do you have any comments or questions or anything you would like to tell my dear listeners about that you have in the books or that you would like to make them aware of that they can purchase perhaps or a website maybe or something like that?

Well, everything to do with me, you can find at the website somethingweirdmedia.com. And that covers me and the other hosts that do the House of Mystery, as well as all of our books. There's three of us that write of the five hosts. And yeah, by all means, go to the website and you can find anything you want about us. The books themselves are at all bookstores and Amazon, of course.

That's great. Thank you so much. Alan R. Warren, thank you so much for joining me here on the Serial Killer podcast. And I normally don't do this, but if you would like, I would love to have you back to talk some more about maybe one of the other serial killers you mentioned at the end there. So if you are interested, maybe we could do that in the new years. That sounds good. Just let me know.

Fantastic. Thank you.

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Start a 30-day free trial at walmartplus.com. Paramount Plus is central plan only. Separate registration required. See Walmart Plus terms and conditions. And so we come close to this evening's conclusion. The case of the game show killer is truly fascinating. And I promise to come back to it more in depth in the future. I hope you enjoyed this interview.

Next week, I will tell you another tale of a fresh new serial killer case. I think you'll love it. This podcast had not been possible if it hadn't been for my dear patrons that invest in this show via Patreon. My special thanks go out to those of you that have stayed loyal for a long time.

Those of you I would like to give an extra heartfelt thank you to are...

Your monthly contributions really helps keep this podcast thriving. You have my deepest gratitude. If you wish to have your name read here on the podcast, go to patreon.com slash the serial killer podcast now and choose the $15 tier option and I'll make sure to include you in this very exclusive club.

As always, I thank you, dear listener, for listening, and please feel free to leave a review on your favorite podcast app, my Facebook page at facebook.com slash the SK podcast, or website, and please do subscribe to the show if you enjoy it. Thank you, good night, and good luck.