The Grass Roots, Part 2
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Hi, my name is Ested Herndon. I'm a reporter with the New York Times. I was looking for Delaney. Yeah, that's me. Hi, thank you so much. I am calling because I host our politics podcast called The Run-Up. And we were hoping that you have five, ten minutes for us to chat right now and record it for possible use in our podcast. Is that something you think we could do? Yeah, yeah, that'd be okay. Sounds interesting. Okay, cool. Thank you so much. Well, first I would ask some basic stuff. Just where do you live and how old are you?

I live in Bloomsburg, and I'm 24 years old. Bloomsburg, all right. Pennsylvania. When you look at these midterm elections, is there an issue or set of issues that matter to you the most? Yeah, I mean, gun policies and abortion laws are pretty important to me, I think. Also, the way that we fund our schools. And honestly, just

you know, having politicians that aren't dick bags. You're a young person. I mean, have you always been interested in politics? Have you always voted since 18? I'm curious of how interested in politics you are. Um,

I'm not super interested. I haven't always voted when it was against Trump and Biden. I don't think I voted because, to be honest, I had my family, well, my parents, telling me that Trump was like the way to go and he was the best and they would give me money if I voted for him. Oh, wow. Yeah, they told me they would pay me like...

50 bucks if I went to vote for Trump and that didn't work telling me, no, it didn't work. Um, but they also were talking really bad about Biden and that he was like being mind controlled and that like, uh, who's, who's the vice president now? What's her name? Uh, Kamala Harris. Kamala. Yeah. Um,

They were also telling me that the whole reason for them getting Biden elected was so that she could take over and that she would ruin the country. And it, I don't know, just a whole bunch of crazy stuff. So I just decided to stay out of it completely. Democrats used to brag about their grassroots voter coalition. And in the Obama era...

they had good reason to. They had a diverse base led by young people, minority voters, and college-educated women. It was supposed to carry the party for a generation. But in 2016, that coalition began to crack when some of those voters stayed home. And even more so in 2020, when some of them backed Trump.

And now, facing a hardened Republican Party that's unified in its vision for the country, the Democratic Party is trying to re-energize its base before it's too late. Today, in part two, the lost Democrats in their own words. From the New York Times, I'm Astead Herndon. This is The Run-Up.

Um, there's a couple of things I wanted to ask you about that specifically motivated young people around the last two, three years. I've been curious how you saw it. Um, what did you think about the, the protest in 2020? There was a lot of young people out there. Which one was that? Was that the, was that the White House one? I'm talking about the George Floyd, uh, moment where there was a lot of protests all across the country. Oh.

Right. Are you asking like anything specifically or just like what I thought about the thing in its entirety? Well, I guess I'm asking that those moments influence, if any, how you saw Biden or Trump or politics. That's kind of a tough one. I don't think I really thought too much about...

the presidents when that was happening. I was thinking more about the individuals involved in the protests and like some of the really bad things that happened. And yeah, I don't know. It did not make me think of, oh, the president did this or that. And that was horrible. It didn't. What about January 6th? Did you follow any of that?

Uh, maybe. Can you refresh my memory? You know, there was the folks who stormed the Capitol, um, uh, after and between, in between Trump and Biden getting elected. I wonder if that hit your radar any. Oh, it did. It did. Um, my parents who tried to bribe me to vote for Trump, they were there. Oh, okay. They were there. Yes. In like support of Trump and everything. Uh, it, uh,

Was I yuck? It was yucky. I did not like that that happened. I, I just don't, I didn't agree with like any of the things that they were doing and why. I don't know. They've had a lot to do with why I don't follow them.

their political views. I don't align with them at all. Has that changed any? Have they gotten more political? Have they gotten, were they always like this as you were growing up? Or has that distance grown between? I don't, yeah, I don't think they were like this when I was younger. But obviously, when I was super little, I wouldn't have been paying attention to it. But I don't know. That's, they've definitely gotten worse with Trump.

You know, one of the things that Joe Biden has tried to say is that even people who are not that political, people like you, would have to become more motivated in this moment so they could save democracy. So things like the six would never happen again. Does that message resonate with you? I mean, he's kind of asking someone like you to become more political.

I actually didn't, I wasn't even aware that he like came out and basically said that, but it does make sense to me. And I think we should, all civilians should be more involved in politics and see it as like their voice does matter, but

I don't know. We also have a really hard time agreeing on anything. And the people who are really loud are the people like my parents who are extremists and they'll go to the ends of the earth to tell you that you're wrong and what you believe is stupid. Um,

And then everyone hearing that gets super defensive and it just causes fights. So I don't know how we're supposed to come together and agree on stuff and make certain things happen. I don't know. I'm probably getting off topic from what you asked me. No, no, no, no, no. I think that's really interesting. For you, is there like an outlet or a person or a place you go to where you find your news that you trust?

A lot of the time it's TikTok. I don't really trust any news channels.

I hate to use this term, but it is kind of like fear mongering. The people I've met who watch the news all the time are like really paranoid and just terrified of everything. And they get all this weird information just repeated to them over and over and over again from multiple different news channels. I would rather get information from...

people who have similar views to me or views that'll somewhat challenge my views, um, with like facts and, um, information that maybe I didn't know about, you know, I'm, I'm always willing to change my opinion if it makes sense. And if it's real, you know, uh, the last thing I would ask is like, um, I mean,

You're describing that like people on the sidelines have been apathetic while your parents, who you don't really agree with, have been more motivated in politics. But at the same time, you're saying you're not, it don't seem like completely sure that you're going to vote in November. I just want to know, like, how do we reconcile all of those things? If you feel apathetic, people haven't really gotten involved, but you seem to be yourself not really fully getting involved. I'm saying, doesn't this apply to you too?

It does. I just, the fighting, man, I don't know, the fighting. If someone starts screaming at me about their opinion, like, I just drop out of the conversation. It's no longer interesting to me to fight with them. So if I have to fight with people on...

You know, every single thing that a politician stands for, I'm not interested in that. I don't want to argue with people. I want to be able to sit and have normal conversations where people are rational, willing to take in new information, new opinions. But I guess my experience has been that people with opposite views of me get really, really angry when others don't agree with them.

And I am probably the opposite of an extremist. So I guess that's part of the reason I stay out of it. What is going to be the determining factor on whether you decide to, are you definitely going to vote or not vote? Are you waiting for something to know? I'm just trying to make sure I don't misrepresent that. Hmm. Hmm.

I think we'll probably try to go vote. I think maybe it would be good for us to look at the options a little bit better and have an opinion on it. So I think we'll try to. I think it would be good for us to try. This has kind of been a good reminder for me.

Hi, my name is Ested Herndon. I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I was looking for Nelson Aquino. Aquino. Aquino. I'm so sorry about that. How are you? No worries. Hey, how are you? I'm doing well. I guess I want to start with some more basic questions. Just tell me about what you do and where you live. I'm an IT project manager and I live in Central Florida. Okay. Have you considered yourself a Democrat or a Republican historically? No.

Democrat historically, yeah. Okay. When was your first Democratic vote? What's your origin story with the Democratic Party? Man, I'm trying to think back. So I think I want to identify more with it after I got out of the military, which was, I want to say, 2006.

So I guess my first major vote would have been for Obama in 2008, but I was just getting out of the military. I was 20 something years old and I don't think there's any 18 or 19 year olds that are taking politics seriously. So not for the most part anyway. But once I got out of the military, it got me thinking about more of our role in the world and how our politics affects it. So that's where I kind of got more involved in it. And at that time, what led you when you were doing that type of thinking to the Democratic Party?

Well, I want to preface that, I think, because with Bush, it was more when 9-11 happened, you know, everybody was super gung ho. I enlisted in the military. You know, it was a very somber but proud moment for us to come together. But after, you know, the initial adrenaline rush from Bush, it was more like you started seeing all these, you know, I don't want to call them mistakes.

But our world standing started dropping more and more. And then the justification for going into Iraq and all those things started kind of piling up.

And Obama kind of brought a different take on things outside the fact that, you know, it was a historic vote, first of all, but his policies were more realistic because there had been other black candidates before, but nobody kind of took them seriously. Right. Not to his level, but it's because he was talking with substance. And how did you, I mean, how did you feel at that time once he was able to win? How did you feel that day? What was your sense of the country when that happened? I,

I felt that there was hope. I felt that this experiment of democracy that we have, that, you know, that the changing demographic does affect it. It's like people felt like their vote didn't matter, but it did. We wanted to have an African-American president and we felt that it was historic and not just that. He was a good candidate just overall, which I think is more important. You know, there was hope. We can change stuff if we wanted to. That's kind of what the overall feeling was for me.

Do you still feel that way about democracy? I want to, but I can't say that it's not greatly diminished at this point just because of how the environment is today. When did that start to change for you? When did that hope for you start to fade into that deep sigh? It wasn't when Trump got elected.

It wasn't. It wasn't when he got it. It was after. I mean, when he starts ignoring Congress and now it's, you know, you're defying a subpoena. When it came time for Democrats to nominate a challenger to Trump, who did you support? Uh,

I like Bernie. I like Andrew Yang. Biden wasn't my first choice because I think Democrats are too soft. And that means we have to push a stronger agenda. Did you always think Democrats were too soft? I mean, it doesn't sound like it. No, they weren't too soft for the times, but today they are. When did that shift for you? When did you start wanting more from Democrats?

Now, like with all this patriotism talk, like Republicans aren't the owners of patriotism. I just think that they're defining patriotism by their beliefs. And if you don't believe what they believe, then you're not patriotic, which is BS. Like Republicans, pro-gun, pro-life, whatever those kind of standards are, then they've tied that into either patriotism or religion. And if you don't believe in those things, you're not a patriot or you're not religious.

There's been a really effective job. And you don't have Democrats that come back and challenge those points. You know, I don't think they do it in a way that resonates with people to understand that they are also patriotic. It sounds like you want Democrats to have like a rallying, uniting cause that you don't really see them having.

Right. And it doesn't have to be centered around religion or a specific thing, but it's just something that resonates with people that would kind of overcome those. Like I could be a Christian and be pro-life or pro-choice or pro-gun or anti-gun. I don't have to be a Christian and have to be pro-life and have to be pro-gun, you know?

One of the things we've talked about on our show is this exact thing about how Republicans have used ideas of religion, of patriotism to really unite their voters. One of the challenges that Democrats have is they just have more different types of voters. They're trying to unite people across a lot of different types of races, a lot of different types of classes, different educational backgrounds. What do you think they could say that would really bring all those different type of disparate groups together on one set of priorities?

I think people are tired of the way the system is. And I think if there was a candidate, and I will say this, if there was a candidate from any party that said the system is broken,

I'm going to do away with the Electoral College. I'm going to do ranked choice voting. I am going to put term limits on Congress, put term limits on the Supreme Court, like a systematic change where most people can agree. I think that person would go a long way. If a Democrat did that, then great. But.

I think systematic change is required. And I think more people are fed up with the system than they are with their actual policies. So if you wanted something more substance that Democrats can bring people together on, those are things that would pull just Democrats and Republicans and independents alike. I mean, I got to tell you, I hear so much about

Democrats trying to find a singular issue in the kind of traditional sense that could unite these groups. What I'm hearing from you is like, it's not an issue. It's the fact that all of these groups feel like the system isn't working. Right. Because of all these other underlying factors like gerrymandering and redistricting and all these other things that it's not working for everyone or the majority of people, because we make it seem like 100 percent of us have to agree.

And it's never going to happen versus we get the majority of us to agree. And that's the direction that we move, because that's, in essence, democracy. The majority should rule. So, yeah, I think the majority would feel in the conversations that I've had with Republican friends and family is fine. Let's not talk about abortion. Let's not talk about gun control. Let's not talk about any of that. How do we fix the system?

to be more serving to the people. Okay, like 90% of Americans agree that background checks are sensible. Why isn't it done? 90% of us, that includes a lot of Republicans. Yeah, that's a system question. That's not an issue question. You're right. That's a systemic question. So why isn't it done?

If 90% of us agree on it, that's a systemic question. How do we fix that system? Remove lobbying from Congress. Make campaigns publicly funded. Remove special interests. That's a systemic issue. There's a lot of Democrats right now who are focusing on other issues, like identity and culture, one of the things that come up when we talk about Republicans.

is they're very upset about how Democrats have talked about issues like race, issues like gender and sexuality, things like that. Yeah, I mean, they use that as a dividing crutch or a rallying call for their base, right? And...

There are some things that I think, especially when it comes to like the gender identity kind of things that we have to look at as Democrats and say, OK, listen, there's one thing if you want to. I don't know if this is inappropriate to say, but if you want to identify as whatever you want to identify as, I respect that.

But you can't make me identify you as that, right? Like, especially if it's not clear cut. Like, I want to identify as a billion dollar playboy and I'm, you know, four, seven and 400 pounds and balding. Like, I identify as that, but that doesn't mean you're going to call me that. You know what I mean? Do you feel like the party has focused too much on cultural issues? Yeah, I think those kinds of things are just distractions as far as how we behave as a society. People will get used to it.

And whether we have two bathrooms or four bathrooms or three, like whatever the case may be, whether it's how sports participates, that we'll figure that out to where it feels fair for us. But that's something that government and we shouldn't really be focused on. We have much bigger fish to fry.

But as a Democrat, like there are real numbers that show, you know, violence against trans communities that show the need for education around gender and sexual identity. How do you balance those realities with the feeling that you seem to be expressing that talking about those issues has maybe put some other things that you find more pressing on the side?

Well, no, I'll say this. If there's education in regards to it, to make people aware of it, I'm totally OK with that. And I think that should be something that is just like how we started doing education on race 40 years ago. That stuff kind of takes time. But when you're spending time on a debate stage talking about this.

It's taking away from more important issues. And I think there's a bigger threat right now than that. And I think we have to prioritize those threats first. And that bigger threat is challenges to the system. Right. Okay. Okay. The last questions I have is a look ahead. Like in these midterms, what are you looking for, hoping for? You all have a big race in Florida. I'm very pessimistic about it simply because of the level of misinformation there is.

The truth has been skewed so far that now you can't make an informed decision, especially if you're not keeping up with it. Like I consider myself someone that keeps up with politics a lot, but I'm not the average person, I don't think. And if the average person can't find information quickly and make a determination about what their beliefs are and whether they agree with the candidate, then...

then it just becomes that much easier to manipulate them into making the wrong choice and voting against their own self-interest. And I think that's what's happening now.

I mean, if you are both pessimistic about where the system is and pessimistic that Democrats are going to be able to fix it in November, where does that leave you for the look ahead for the future? Depressed. No, I think it's in cycles. I think if I hope as well, I hope that, um,

it doesn't get to a point where there's more violence and there's bigger threats that we kind of get a handle on it and we can kind of take a step back off that cliff. But I think we're definitely standing on the edge of it. And that's kind of my feeling, right? Like it's actually going to take more Republicans like Liz Cheney to say, look, it's not whether I agree with Democrats or not, this is wrong. And even if it costs me my seat,

I would vote for her in a heartbeat because she's literally telling me, I don't care about holding on to power. I care about doing what's right. I hear that. But because it cost her her seat, like I have a hard time seeing Cheney as an example of hope because in doing that, she has lost her credibility with Republicans, right? Yeah, but that's the thing. If they just want to tell you what you want to hear,

then it's not the right fit for you. And I mean, people have to figure that out eventually, I guess, right? Mm-hmm. I keep coming back to that cliff you talked about, though. What's the exit route? I don't know. I really don't know. I think I would want to say it's a Democrat that comes forward and kind of sets things straight, but I think it has to be someone from the Republican Party that has enough weight to bring people back to their senses.

Because the more we keep barreling down this path, it's not, I don't think it's sustainable. So yeah, I'm still on the edge of the cliff and I don't know if we're going to jump or not. We'll be right back. With Instacart, starting a new school year can be easy. Because memorizing your daughter's volleyball schedule is hard. And explaining why she needs to take geometry is hard. And remembering whether emojis are cool or uncool is hard.

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- Hello, this is Yuande Kamalefa from "New York Times Cooking," and I'm sitting on a blanket with Melissa Clark. - And we're having a picnic using recipes that feature some of our favorite summer produce. Yuande, what'd you bring? - So this is a cucumber agua fresca. It's made with fresh cucumbers, ginger, and lime.

How did you get it so green? I kept the cucumber skins on and pureed the entire thing. It's really easy to put together and it's something that you can do in advance. Oh, it is so refreshing. What'd you bring, Melissa?

Well, strawberries are extra delicious this time of year, so I brought my little strawberry almond cakes. Oh, yum. I roast the strawberries before I mix them into the batter. It helps condense the berries' juices and stops them from leaking all over and getting the crumb too soft. Mmm. You get little pockets of concentrated strawberry flavor. That tastes amazing. Oh, thanks. New York Times Cooking has so many easy recipes to fit your summer plans. Find them all at NYTCooking.com. I have sticky strawberry juice all over my fingers.

Hi, my name is Ested Herndon. I'm a reporter from The New York Times. I was looking for Catherine. Thank you so much for picking up. I am our host of our politics podcast called The Run-Up. And we've been calling people to try to get a sense of how they're feeling about politics heading into the midterm elections. If you have like 10 minutes for us to chat, do you think we could do so right now?

Yeah, that's fine. Thank you so much. Well, I first would just love to know more about you. Where are you in the country? How old are you? And what do you do for a living? I live in Texas. I live in the San Antonio, Austin area. I am 30 and I'm a graphic designer. How would you describe yourself to someone who's never met you? Well, I am autistic. I am ADHD. I am queer. Um,

I identify as non-binary, but I am typically clocked as a woman and have that experience growing up. Did you grow up in Texas? Yeah, I've lived here my whole life. I grew up in an extremely liberal family, which is really surprising and odd for Texas. Yeah, yeah. And you've always considered yourself a Democrat.

Um, yeah, given given the options. Yeah, I'm pretty far for much further to the left than most of the Democratic Party. But that's kind of where we're at right now. You know, Texas is obviously notoriously conservative and has long for a long time taken pride in that on the state level. As someone who has spent their life in Texas, did you consider going elsewhere?

I have, and a lot of my feelings about that are going to be determined by this next election because I'm in a situation where at this point I'm actually questioning my safety and certainly the safety of my friends. There's kind of a run of us worried and making exit plans if we have to. And it's hard because there's a lot about Texas that I love and admire. Texas is an absolutely gorgeous state to live in.

But I think, you know, it's not a good time right now. It's, you know, with Roe v. Wade and the just serious extreme anti-women sentiment as far as reproductive health. Just on that level alone, it's really frightening. And then you count in the fact that probably 40% of my friends are trans. And the anti-trans sentiment across...

more of the smaller towns has gotten actively more hostile. What do you trace that to?

I 100% trace it to Trump. Okay. I think it was always there, but I think Trump being elected and running on the platform that he did, it gave people license to be more vocally awful. I, you know, it's, I am not as visibly affected. Most people are not going to look at me and guess anything about me, LGBT wise, but I have a lot of more friends who are, and I,

I'm trying to figure out how to explain this. Um,

We have to sit down when we're going to go out in a public place that is not in San Antonio. And San Antonio is pretty fine. Most of the time it's fine. But if you go outside of San Antonio, any of the small towns around it, you kind of have to make plans. You have to have contingency plans for what happens if somebody decides to get hostile with you. You have to have sort of practiced de-escalation techniques. Is that what you mean by plans? You practice those de-escalation techniques? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's sort of my approach. I know other people who have different approaches that are more combative or more based around just avoiding the situation in the first place. My go-to is to try and just calm a situation down, but it's not fun. You trace the change and this kind of palpable sentiment back to Donald Trump. I'm curious as to what you think about Democrats. Have they countered that effectively?

Can they counter that? I think more than anything, my frustration with Democrats has been a desire to continually play nice with people who are very determined to not make that an option. I think back to Michelle Obama and the when they go low, we go high. And the problem I have with that sentiment is that.

it gives legitimacy to claims that are not acceptable. And there has been way too little pushback on rhetoric of that level. And I think it's slightly getting better. I think there's finally been some understanding that you can't, like there's a group of people in this country that has gotten way louder and way more aggressive that,

you just cannot argue with. You cannot reason with. You cannot somehow be nice enough and make them understand and want to work with you. At this point in my life, I've seen enough people who there is no arguing them into a kinder state of mind. There is no arguing them into understanding of a group of people that they don't want to understand.

showing showing that you are willing to recognize that that's not a viable path forward anymore is massive and getting people in my demographic on your side. How do you balance that desire for not compromising when it doesn't make sense or cutting Republicans out when it doesn't make sense with the reality for Democrats needing to win?

I think it's a tricky balance. I think you don't compromise with people who decide to overthrow the election. I think that's a big start. But you could argue that under that umbrella falls a big chunk of the Republican Party currently. I think you absolutely could, and that's terrifying. But there is not an answer where...

Tolerating a complete disconnect with reality does anything good because the shift to the right just keeps going. We are not course correcting. We just keep moving as a country for the right when we tolerate that side.

Of the GOP and the GOP was not always that way. OK, well, let me ask you differently. What would it look like to not tolerate that stuff? I get that Republicans could vote them out and they haven't in primaries. But like, what would it look like for Joe Biden to not tolerate it? What would it look like for Democrats to not tolerate it?

I think, honestly, it's been getting better on that front lately. Joe Biden's calling out the insurrectionists for what they were, as much as it made a lot of the GOP angry. I think that was really necessary. I think there's a lot. I would like to see more boots on the ground efforts from the Democratic Party at large.

to reach out to people who are turned off by what's been going on in the GOP, because there are significant numbers of people who have left the party. I'm okay with... There is an ideological difference there, and I am willing to shelve that until the current right-wing nationalist uprising is pushed back where it belongs. You're willing to shelve your differences with people until...

though Trump wing of Republicans are cut out. Yeah, that's more important to me right now. This rising tide of right-wing nationalism is actually terrifying for huge swaths of the country. And as much as I am super leftist, super progressive, have really strong ideals, it is vastly more important to me that that

go away and not have a place where it is a part of everyday American politics than it is for me to get everything that I want right now. But would that require deprioritizing, for lack of a better word, like LGBT issues? I think when you're looking about at certain things,

Probably, yeah. I mean, I think there's room to still talk about them and try and like help people understand. But there's also a difference between, OK, maybe we aren't focused on creating national protections for LGBT people and are just focused on not creating laws that directly harm and attack LGBT youth. To that point, when we look ahead.

Like, it's a good chance the results don't go your way. Not just that, at least in Texas, but even if the Democrats do find a way to hold on, they're not looking at great prospects to be able to provide protections for LGBT communities, to be able to codify Roe v. Wade in law, things that are tangibly important to your life and the people around you's life.

What then is your prospect for the future? I mean, if it is like this now, where do you think it's going? Oh, no, we're good. At this point, thinking too much about what could happen is so overwhelmingly terrifying that it's paralyzing because I really think that the worst is a situation where most

The majority of the country has no voice, and there is no good outcome from that. If it doesn't come to that level of bad, if we just sort of continue to muddle along, I think there's a chance that if we fight hard enough and long enough, we will be able to pull this country back into some semblance of understanding that diversity is good and allowing people to live their lives with some amount of freedom is good. I...

Don't know, though. And I don't like speculating because there's not a lot of options that I see that have me hopeful. The most hopeful thing in there is fight hard enough and long enough. And I don't want to live in that world. But that's kind of the world that we're facing. Hello, my name is Estet Herndon. I'm a reporter with The New York Times. Is this Rochelle?

Yes. Hi, thank you for picking up. I think we talked earlier this summer. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for picking up again, then. I'd love to learn more about you than we did last time. Can you just tell me, like, where you are in the country, what you do for a living? Just tell me some more. I'm in Pennsylvania. What part? My family's from Pittsburgh, my mom's side. I'm in Wilkes-Barre. Okay. Okay. How long have you been there for?

I've been out here almost five years now. Oh, okay. So you're not from Wilkes-Barre? No, I'm originally from New York. Okay. Long Island. What brought you there? The rent prices and...

The housing and the schools out here were much better than they were in New York. So I came out here because there are better opportunities. But I'm about to move out of Pennsylvania and move to Georgia. Pennsylvania is not, yeah, it's not helping. Is that again because of opportunities? I'm curious. Yeah.

Why? Yeah, for opportunities and because of the high rent prices. Okay. When I first moved out here, I got a four-bedroom house for $750. Now my rent is almost $1,500 in the same house. I'm a hardworking single mother that's trying to survive in this country.

You said you're a mother. How many children do you have?

I have three children. I have a son that's 19. I have a daughter that's about to be 17 next month. And I have another daughter that's going to be 12. When you have thought about politics, have you typically voted for Democrats?

No, I really just started getting into politics within the past five years because of my son as he's getting older. When you have to live for somebody else, you know, you got to look for good schools and good communities and stuff like that. It takes a different look on the way you see the world. Well, let me then start before that, though. Were you not voting originally before that, before five years ago?

No. You weren't voting. Okay. Why weren't you voting? I wasn't voting because I didn't believe in this country. Okay. I didn't believe in the government at all. Really, I don't, but I can see how when you don't vote, how things can really change. Mm-hmm. Well, let's take something like Barack Obama's election in 2008. You set that election out? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

That was a big moment where people talking about things like hope, change. You weren't moved by that? No, because I know it was a lot of forced hope.

How did you know that at the time? I'm curious. Because I know the history of America. They wasn't really going to put that black man in there and really let him do a lot of change. They wasn't going to do that. I mean, think about it. Everything that man did, they blocked every chance they could. And then you turn around, you get Donald Trump, and every time you turn around, he passing laws, passing this, passing that, passing this. And don't got to say nothing to nobody. The only reason why I voted...

This year for Joe Biden is because Trump was just outrageous. It was just really picking the lesser two evils. That's the only thing. Let's just deal with Democrats for a second. They tell me all the time that they're the party of the working class, right? That they are prioritizing people like single mothers, that they are trying to create economic opportunities for people of color. What about that general message that

isn't translating to your day-to-day life? Because it's all lies. If that was the case, why they been having been doing it? I believe single black mothers have been around since the beginning of the time. Why have nobody been helped? Why nobody... Everything they keep talking about is the same thing they've been running on since the government started. Helping the people.

Helping the people. When are y'all going to help the people? I'm still waiting. I'm 36. I'm still waiting. When y'all going to start helping the people? Really? Because, I mean, literally, like I said, I got three kids. I'm 36.

When I was younger, I couldn't get daycare for my son. I had to work two jobs, go to school, and I couldn't pay for daycare. Why? Because daycare was anywhere from $200 to $300 at that time, and that was 19 years ago. But at that time, I was only making what minimum wage was. So imagine having a child, going to school, and still got to pay almost $300 in child care. How are we doing it?

Like, literally, I wish the politicians would live off the paycheck that they give us and see how we do it. Okay. I get your point about the economy and Democrats not doing things that touch people like you. What about if we move on from the economy? What about issues about race, identity, culture, representation? Democrats would say that there's a lot of reasons for someone like you should support them, not just the economy.

I mean, what's your response to that? That even if the party can't provide a better livable lifestyle for you, better economic opportunities for you, what they can provide is, you know, to not be as racist as Republicans, is what they would say. That's not possible. Number one, we don't even acknowledge that racism even exists in America. We still clean the blind eye like it never happened.

So that's not going to happen. That's not going to change. When people stop lying and tell the truth, racism is real. Racism is in every part of America, but nobody's going to say that. We got Democrats and Republicans running around talking about CRT. But what are y'all talking about? Critical race theory. That's what y'all talking about. What is so critical about somebody else's livelihood or them sustaining that y'all haven't figured out?

Like, y'all literally had to learn or teach people not to be racist. And that's what's crazy to me. Those courses are taught in college. They're not taught in elementary. I was taught ever since I was younger, you can't hide from the truth and you can't hide from reality. I don't know why we keep acting like our children are not growing up. Like, they're going to stay babies forever.

Like, you know how many kids out here in this world that don't know anything out in the world? Their parents won't set them up for the world because they think this world is a nice, peaceful bubble? No, you got to tell them the truth. Like, we got a lot that's going on in this world, and racism is not going to stop. Democrats, they can promise that to the end. Democrats, Republicans, they're not going to help. They're not. Anybody that we know about America, anyone that's set to help black people is not going to fully help. They can give us a good mouthpiece, but they're not helping.

I'm not alienating this country. But you did vote for Joe Biden in 2020. Do you think that vote has been worth it looking back? Like I said, it was just picking the less the two easy. That was it. Joe Biden ain't going to help do nothing. And even if he did want to help something, look at it. You got the government fighting against the government to help the government. You got the Democrats fighting against the Republicans fighting against the president.

Where the fuck are, where's the people supposed to be in the middle of life? Okay, well, let me ask a question that looks ahead. Are you going to vote in these midterms? I have no choice. The way they're going in this world, we have no choice but to vote. But, okay, then let's just slow this down, though, a second. You're saying you will vote in these midterms and you will vote for Democrats because it's an emergency. Yes.

But you aren't really happy about that vote because you don't think the Democrats do much for you. Nope. And that, if Republicans win, you think what? If the Republicans win? Yeah. Oh, we're going to war. They already stated that on every chance, every challenge they get. And if they don't get their way, we're going to war. So either way, we're going to war. This is what I'm saying. Before January 6th happened, they said they were going to do it.

All this stuff, people are telling you what they're going to do and nobody is taking it serious. That's the problem.

Like, you know, the only time they really started talking about how bad the rhetoric and how bad the threats were getting when they started going against the House, when they started going against their teammates, their running mates, when they started talking about AOC and when they started talking about hanging Mike Simpson, all this other stuff. Remember, y'all passed a law literally saying that y'all couldn't go outside certain people's houses and protest. Y'all passed a law.

I get what you're saying. You see what I'm saying? Y'all literally went past laws because y'all was doing this to each other. So something like January 6th takes up a lot of their energy only because that's the time when that stuff came to them. When you're saying that, like, when you're saying that that type of violence, that type of rhetoric, that type of intimidation has been something that the people have experienced and felt for much longer. Exactly. I see it. I see you.

In 2024, if it's Biden versus Trump again, how would you vote? I'm moving out the country. You're just, you're taking option C. I already started looking to other countries. Is that just if it's Biden again, or is that period because of how you feel that where the country's going? Period. Really at this point, because it don't even matter who goes into the White House or go into the system.

It's not going to help us. It's not going to help us. If the Democrats win, we're going to see a whole bunch of promises that's not going to be fulfilled. And then they're going to get a whole bunch of excuses. Oh, the Republicans blocked this. I couldn't get that. Republicans blocked this. They're going to do the same thing that they did last year and the year before. They're going to go back and forth with fighting with each other while people out here is dying.

That's all it's going to do, because that's all it's been for the past four years was a fight. People like, oh, we got to fight for democracy right now. Well, guess what? Democracy ain't never fight for us, literally. You know, more than any other demographic group, basically in America, Black women are loyally Democratic voters.

And have backed the party through all of those things you are talking about in terms of, you know, promises that may not have been followed through or things like that. I mean, obviously you're articulating a different relationship to Democrats than that. But I'm just curious, largely, there's been a lot more rhetoric about the importance of Black women coming from Democrats. Has that resonated with you any? That's what I mean. It's been the same rhetoric forever.

Y'all get the black women, y'all get the black votes, and what happened to the black community? Nothing. We get more things done to us than anything. When we out here voting for Democrats and we helping the Democrats and we looking at politicians, then we turn around because they went on a war on drugs or a health crisis or whatever. It's our children that's getting locked up because this is what I'm saying. They don't connect one thing to another.

They don't understand the reason why black women are out there fighting the politicians. We're not doing that just because we need to be seen now. We're doing that because we have no choice now. This is what I'm saying. This is a diet of emergency because if we don't start going out there and letting the world see that we're here,

You start fading away. Like, look at it. If you had blacks running in the Republican Party, you'll probably get one or two that may be able to run. And that's because of the ignorance that they level. The statement that Hershey Walker made a couple of weeks ago, which made me so, and it outweighs a lot of black people, when he said, I'm nothing but a dumb country boy. Yep, yep, yep. I'm not educated and all this other stuff. That's how they see us.

And it was bad because that's something that they use. That's why people are mad at Hershey Walker because we like, dude, we know the dog wishes. We know the side calls. And you're really running into it just to make yourself look like a fool. But then on the same side, they'll use it and say, well, you know, that's a typical black man.

That's not right. Because everything that man is going through in his life, that falls back on the black community. That's just not on a black person. That's what people don't understand. It doesn't happen to one people. It happens to a community. Because we all get cards and labels the same way. Right, right, right. White candidates can be individuals where black candidates are representative of an entire community. Yes. Exactly. You mentioned your son.

As a motivating factor for you getting involved in politics. Tell me that story. How did that happen? Because as my son was getting older and I've seen more and more incidents with police officers dealing with black men, snatching them out the car. Police officers not even knowing the law and feeling like they are in charge over people. And my stepson was murdered.

And when he was murdered, we literally went to the police. And the way, I'm sorry, but the way the police treated us was so disgusting. This boy went to college. He helped raise his sisters and brothers. Boy was 21 years old. Great kid. I mean, great kid. And the way they smeared him destroyed me.

And it's like, then they want to represent us. Who are you representing when you don't see us? When you really don't care about what's going on with us? Who are you representing? All these things that's going on with these black children and these black men and black people. How many times did you see any kind of police officer go to jail? Really go to jail? Not just sent us to a probation. And then we look for our government to help us. Why? We're their target. We're their payoff.

This is what they do. And then we got to sit here and we have to deal with this. They don't have to deal with the stuff we deal with. Because who are we to talk to? Who are we going to give our grievance to that really cares? Who? That story brings up a lot for me as a black man, a lot for me as a journalist, a lot for me as someone who has talked to a lot of people who feel like you, who feel unseen in politics. How...

Do you, like, it does feel wrong then, my next question is how you overcome that, because it does feel like it should not be your job, but it does also feel like it is, right? It is. How do you overcome what we both know to be the deep discrimination, the deep ignorance that exists even among Democrats? Yeah. Honestly, I have no clue.

Really don't know because this battle is so much bigger than one, ten, ten thousand, ten million. We don't know. And we don't know how people really truly feel in their heart. So you could be smiling and being happy and, you know, you think you're good and they say, you know, everything gets pulled out from under you. We don't know because it's hard to trust anyone when you really can't see them.

And we can't see our government. We can't see our country. Like, people like, why do you think the country won't look in five years from now? That's if we even got five years. I appreciate your time, really, Rochelle, and I appreciate your honesty. Okay, thank you. And I appreciate you, and you keep doing the great job that you're doing. What I hear from Rochelle and other voters who represent the promise of the Obama coalition is a sense that the party is not positioned for this moment.

doesn't know what it stands for and is struggling to fight back against a more unified and radicalized right wing. And look, the majority of Democrats will respond to the party's message this year. This is no ordinary year. So I ask you to think long and hard about the moment we're in. A message President Biden repeated this week in Washington. In our bones, we know democracy is at risk. But we also know this.

It's within our power, each and every one of us, to preserve our democracy. That the country is not so far apart. That progress can be made. And that a country united can protect democracy. You have the power. It's your choice. It's your decision. The fate of the nation, the fate of the soul of America lies where it always does. With the people. In your hands, in your heart, in your ballot. But for a key group of voters...

the ones who once offered the prospect of a new generation of democratic dominance. It's not resonating. Not so long ago, they were the ones who believed in the promise of hope and change. Now, they see a broken system, incapable of producing either. So if the system hasn't worked, why protect it? Next week, The Midterms.

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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. The Run-Up is reported by me, Astead Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez and Caitlin O'Keefe. It's edited by Franny Carr-Toth, Larissa Anderson, and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Alisha Ba'i-Tub. It was mixed by Corey Schreppel and fact-checked by Caitlin Love.

Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam Dolnick, David Halfinger, Julia Simon, Mahima Chablani, Shannon Busta, Nell Gologly, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Maciello, and the team at The Upshot. Thanks so much for listening, y'all. When it comes to making plans, you are the best.

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