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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

George Camel, Ramsey personality, host of the George Camel Show, very popular on YouTube, is my co-host today. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Very important day for Mr. George Camel and all of us here at Ramsey in that this is the last day of

You can get the deal on his brand-new book, Breaking Free from Broke, because tomorrow is launch day. Woo! Here we go, baby. It's here. Game on. Yeah, and tomorrow's the Super Bowl, and today is the warm-up. If you guys want the deal, though, this is your Super Bowl, because the book Breaking Free from Broke, The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress, absolutely incredible new book, comes out tomorrow. What that means for you, if you're listening and hear this before Tuesday the 16th,

Up until midnight on the 15th, you can get the book and a whole bunch of goodies. Oh, yeah. You get instant access to my talk, Show Me the Money. It's a video talk. We have an online private event happening next week with a Q&A. And this is the big one, the enhanced audio book. You get completely for free with all the sound design and custom music. And the team did an amazing job. It's a very cool audio book.

Very cool. And that's totally free when you preorder the hardcover and, of course, the e-book as well for you digital readers out there. And no matter when you buy the book, you also get three months of every dollar premium. So I wanted people to have an actionable plan when they walk away and not just, huh, good book. I want you to actually go live out the principles and take control of your money and choose hope instead of cynicism this year as we head into an election, Dave.

That's hard to do in that setting. But anyway, so the deal is that you have done some in-depth, detailed research on the scams and schemes of the people that want to take your money from you boys and girls out there, and George exposes the mythology of

and the villains in the marketplace. Absolutely. The first two-thirds of the book unpacks the system designed to keep you broke. And I talk about credit scores and credit cards, which I believe are the gateway drug into all the other types of debt. I cover car loans and student loans and mortgage traps and investing traps and marketing and consumerism, which just exacerbates the whole problem. And I think once you get through of that, you're going to want to take a shower. You're going to have enough ick

You go, okay, I need to opt out of this. I do need to break free from this kind of broke. I call them chains because I think most Americans, they work too hard to feel this broke. They're feeling the chains of payments in this world. They feel like they're on the hamster in the wheel, rat in the maze, an Uber ride from hell, and they just want something different. And I think this book is going to help you live counterculturally and give you hope that you can break free from those chains and have freedom with your money.

So you'll get the knowledge, you'll get the confidence to break free, and all of the evidence is there with great detail. And you guys that are a little bit nerdy and like the research, George is a consumer advocate at heart, and he can't resist...

digging up the dirt and proving to you how you're being screwed. There's 130 sources in this book. It was exhausting to do all the research, but I had to prove it. Not just my opinion and our experience of, you know, you doing the show for 30 years, but actual data from, you know, the Federal Reserve and from MIT proving our plan works.

So brand new book out on the 16th of January. If you hear this before then, up until midnight on the 15th, you can get the new book, Breaking Free from Broke, and instant access to George's newest talk, Show Me the Money, exclusive access to an online private event next week, a Q&A with George, the enhanced audio book.

And so what we decided to do was take all of our audio books from this point forward and put a little jazz to them, make them a little better, make them a little sound effects.

some sounders coming in and out rather than just us reading the book. So I was the guinea pig for this. Yeah, you were the first one out. I don't know if we're going to want to be called a guinea pig or not, but anyway, you were the first one. You were a pioneer, George. Well, it's because I've hosted our podcast, Borrowed Future, The Fine Print, and I've always loved that kind of narrative storytelling style that has some of those elements in it. And I even did some custom music, Dave. The intro and outro for each chapter is actually my playing. Even James, producer James got in there. He played one of them. Oh.

So that's a little Easter egg for you guys. Oh, there you go. Unless you hated the music, in which case it wasn't me, Dave. Well, until I see the bill for the royalty show. Oh, my gosh. Don't worry, Dave. That part is zero.

I like it. Breaking free from broke. Check it out at RamseySolutions.com. And, again, you get $100 worth of free bonus items if you get started on it early. We talked about this in our wildly successful podcast.

live stream last week. Thank you, guys. There were 419,000 of you signed up, literally, to come aboard. Not all of you came, but you signed up to come. And hundreds of thousands of you did, and it was by far the biggest live stream Ramsey has ever done. It was number one on YouTube that night of anything. Wow. Yeah, we blew YouTube up.

We just about broke the Internet with a number of people signing on our site to get onto every dollar and saying, hey, I'm going to break the cycle, which is what that's for. We're breaking a lot of stuff. We're breaking free from broke. We're breaking the cycle. I think it's time. But you talked a little bit about some of this for your section on that live stream last week. And the feedback in the comments was really excellent. I mean, people are hungry to not be stuck anymore.

Yeah. And I wanted to lead with empathy and go, listen, there's a lot of reasons. There's a lot of finger pointing we can do, a lot of things to blame this year as to why we're not going to get ahead and why we have to stay true. You even blamed the baby boomers. I did not really appreciate that. Well, it wasn't me blaming. It was here's what I'm seeing out there. Oh.

People like you. Gen Z millennials are going, the boomers ruined the housing market, Dave. This is why I can't afford a house. And my dad is saying, oh, shut up. You can do it. You paid $13,000, which, by the way, I've never lived in a house that I paid $13,000 for. I actually did buy one in the hood one time. Oh, gosh. But it was not a home that I lived in. Not quite Chip and Joanna. Nope, nope. Not before or after. But anyway, so we ruined the housing market for sure, buying our house.

Our home's for a mere $200,000 or a mere whatever. And then actually the home before last I paid $353,000 for. It's worth about a million. Wow. So we know. I mean, the appreciation of the housing market is real. And Daniel and Rachel were, Rachel was 10 years old.

We don't know about that. So that's a classic boomer story, but it's not 13,000, you goobers. But it's just one of the things, Dave, you know, that I talked about the Fed and Congress and the president and inflation. There's a lot of things you can blame it on. Yeah, and exactly. There's plenty of villains out there. The only person who can fix it is you. Yeah.

And the more we rely and complain, the less we're going to make progress. And so that was one piece of that talk I did. And I unpack more in the book. But the other piece is we all sort of fell into this trap. I tell people it's not all of your fault, but it's your responsibility. You weren't taught financial literacy. You were told the path to upward mobility is to take out unlimited student loans. And you got to have a nice car. And then you got to get a house because renting is a sin and a waste of money. And we all just followed down this path and realized that instead of the American dream, we got delivered the American nightmare.

Yep. And so I led with all of that empathy to go, I understand and I'm sorry, but I'm going to show you a way out in spite of all of that. And that was the heart behind this book.

There we go. Breaking Free from Broke. Comes out tomorrow, so order it by midnight tonight. This is January the 15th that we're recording this. So January 16th is launch day. We would love to have you purchase this. Go to RamseySolutions.com. You're going to love it. Go to the store and get $100 worth of free goodies with the book for only $20. Breaking Free from Broke by George Camel. Congratulations, George. Great book. Thank you, Dave. Appreciate you publishing it.

Hey, what's up? Dr. John Deloney here. The temperature of your environment plays a critical role in deep and restorative sleep. But if your house is like my house, I like things freezing when I sleep, and my wife would prefer to sleep on the surface of the sun. I've held out hope that somebody would crack the code on a solid mattress cooling technology for years, and now the masterminds at 8Sleep have done it.

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Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author of the book Paycheck to Purpose, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. We're so glad you're here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Christopher is with us in Dallas, Texas. Hi, Christopher. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Dave, I am a fellow believer, so you are brother Dave to me. It is an honor to be on your show today, man. Oh, we're honored to have you, sir. How can we help?

All right. I'm 28, married with 202. I work for a church, making $43,000 a year take home. We are nearly done with baby step three, and we have enough for our bills, but things are tight. I have a friend and mentor twice my age who is a successful businessman. He knows our financial situation and offered me a business opportunity that he has proved with someone else.

He suggested trying it independently or taking a $10,000 investment from him for faster growth, of course, a share in profits. I hesitated because of our close relationship, seeing it as a personal loan and the thought of trying to work hard and fast to make back his investment caused me great anxiety.

When I expressed interest in starting the business without taking his money because of viewing as a personal loan, he got very upset, claiming that it was a weak excuse for not wanting to admit that I could make more money on my own. He acted like I was trying to pull one over on him and that he was going to call my bluff, but my heart truly did prioritize the relationship over potential business gains.

So my question is, was I wrong to view the investment as debt? Did I miss out on an opportunity? Or did I do the right thing following my gut and not adding anxiety in my life? Is this just a conflict of different ways to view money? No, this is a butthole. I mean, what kind of guy is a mentor and then sets you up to get you into something he wants you into and then is mad because you won't do it? That's not a mentor. Mm-mm.

He violated mentor ethics. That's right. That's a manipulator. That's what that is. That's a manipulative move.

Yeah, big time. The relationship, by the way, isn't anywhere near what you think it is. And let me just say, as a guy who I still have older mentors in my life and I talk with them regularly, a true mentor, as Dave said, would never react that way. That relationship isn't anywhere near what you think it is. And I hate to tell you that, but you need to be aware of that. Yeah, I would take his name off the mentor plaque. Yeah.

Yeah. He gets the mentor plaque beside his name. We have to take that plaque down. I like that. We have to put up a different plaque that just says, guy who wants money plaque. No, that's not. I mean, a mentor wants your best interest at heart and has absolutely zero conflict on their part. And so he was way too emotionally and otherwise invested in you doing this. Okay. Okay.

Like, you know, if I'm mentoring someone, which I don't do very often for this exact reason, and I say, hey, go do this, and they don't go do it, they don't get anything from me, but the next time I get ready to tell them something, I might hesitate. Right.

But I'm not going to go, I told you not to do that. You know, if they come back and go, you told me not to do that and I screwed this up. Okay, learning experience. That's fine. But I'm not, you know, I don't have to search someone down and defend my ego when I'm in the mentor seat.

That's wild, man. It's kind of heartbreaking because you really depended on this guy. It was really deflating. Yeah. Yeah, it was really deflating, and it seems like a really good opportunity. It's like your dad talking down to you. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, like your dad yelling at you when you're a grown man. I mean, it's like, golly, that don't work. You know, you're confused about that, too.

I don't know, Ken. Yeah, I would say that a mentor needs nothing from you and should never need anything from you, other than if they call and it's relational, hey, pray for me or something like that. But this is a manipulator.

The reaction really disgusts me, if I'm being honest. It's almost like he's a little desperate. It rings of some desperateness if he's trying to shove $10,000 down your throat so that he can make a profit. Something about it is off. Yeah, we're going to share in the profits, and I'm going to put you to work over here. Yeah, something's off. Yeah, that's wrong. All right, Brian's in Salt Lake City. Hey, Brian, how are you? Doing great, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. Sure, what's up?

So, question, I've followed you for years, but I am in a situation where I'm starting again, and it is a little bit of a shame around student loans. So I'm 49 years old, and I've got about $20,000 in student loans, and I've been paying for about 19 years. What do you mean by starting again? I have used your program and had success, but I always...

counted myself as debt-free, not including my home and not including my student loans. So you used your program and said it was mine. Okay. Well, yes. Okay. But I get motivated, and then I don't, and I try to just, like, ignore that this is out there. Okay. And obviously you're calling because that's not working. Yeah. I'm anxious about it, and I'd love to know kind of what your –

Thoughts are, I know that there are some programs out there around forgiveness if you've been paying for 20 years. What's your household income, Brian? I make about $90,000 a year. Okay. The program is cut your lifestyle and pay this off in 12 months. That's the program. Live on $70,000 minus taxes and pay this off in one year. That's about $1,800 a month, and that means you're not going out to eat, and it means you're not going on vacation.

and it means you're not doing half the other crap you've been doing with your $90,000, and you're going to finally address this head-on. That's the program. Quit looking for a shortcut, man. It's not work for you. You're going to have to hit it right straight in the nose. Hit the bully in the nose. Okay. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. It's very doable.

You've got no other debt but this, right? In the house. I own my car. Oh, okay. So we went back to that, too. Okay, so how much do you owe on your car? About $15,000. Okay, that's not too bad. All right. So $35,000 out of $90,000. Yep. So we're debt-free in under two years. Can we agree you could come up with $17,500 a year for two years, please? Please tell me you can do $1,500 a month.

Or you'll figure out a way to cut everything. But I mean, that's what you got to do. It's you, you've been trying to find a way to not do this and it still go away. And, and the problem with the whole thing is there's only really one solution and it's, it's, it's name is not Joe Biden. I mean, there's only one solution and it's name is Brian. Uh, cause I'm not going to pay it off. You are Brian. Do you have any margin in your budget at the end of the month? Yeah. How much?

I haven't been good at budgeting, but I wouldn't consider myself living paycheck to paycheck. I have a little bit of savings. Give me a round number, a given month. I understand you haven't been disciplined, but what's a round number each month that you know you've got margin on? I'm not sure if I fully understand your question, Ken. How much can you scrape together in your mind right now a month to throw at this? Yeah.

I could come up with, I think, between $700 and $1,000 a month. Okay. And then when you start doing your budget, you're going to get that to $1,500, and you're going to be done in under two years.

And that doesn't include you going out and making some extra money. A guy who makes $90,000 has got some skill set. This is about absolute. You talked about motivation. I get motivated and then I lose motivation. And, you know, motivation is really about an end result. It's a real clear focus on a result that I want. And then the actions take place naturally. That's what real motivation is. What's my motive here?

for getting up early or eating right or saving money. What's the motive? And that's the end result. You've got to start looking at the end result. No anxiety over this debt anymore. You mentioned that. All the other things. If you get clearly focused on that, Dave, then the actions take care of themselves. Here's the way I look at it sometimes when I'm looking at this stuff. If I'm going, because I do that too. I guess we all do. We all do. I go,

If someone that I dearly loved, one of my grandchildren's life depended on it, could I? Well, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's a clear motive. I mean, you know, and so it's not a question of could I? It's a question of will I? Yeah, that's right. That's what it comes down to. This is The Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality is my co-host. Al is in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Hey, Al, how are you?

Okay, Al. Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. And just to let you know, I am a long, long time listener, and this is my first time ever to call. Well, we're honored. How can we help you today, sir? I'm honored, too. Okay, so question is, this is about paying off mortgage versus

versus leaving the money in investment. The mortgage is about $188,000 at a 3.375 interest. We owe about 26 more years on it, and I am 65 years. Well, I'll be 65 in May. The investments are roughly $600,000.

making about anywhere from say six to 8%, a whole bunch of mutual funds based on what you told me over the years. So that's my question really is, do I go ahead and pay off the mortgage, which would then bring the investments down after paying taxes in the range of say 360? What do you say? About 400. Yeah. Um,

Well, the way I do these things is I reverse engineer it, and then I see how that feels. Let's pretend that you had a debt-free house and $400,000 in investments. Okay. Would you go borrow $188,000 at said interest rate to put more in your investments? Hmm. I wouldn't. Okay. I wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't. That wakes me up when I look at it that way. And all that is is the exact same thing but backwards, right?

Right, right. So the only thing that gives me a little bit of pause is if you told me you had 600 left over or 800 left over, I'd go in a heartbeat, go do it. 400 is kind of like, it's a lot and you've done really well, but you're going to have to be careful to not, you know, go on a spending spree or something, which I don't think you're going to do. It doesn't sound like you.

No, no. And I agree with you that 400 would be on that edge because I've ran the retirement calculators, including yours, and it puts me on the edge. Yeah. With no house payment, I mean, I always use just on the high side, 8% of the nest egg. And so, you know, that's what, 20, what was that come out? $32,000 a year, right?

Yeah. $320,000. Yeah, $32,000 a year. So, you know, you've got $2,500 a month coming in plus Social Security. Do you have any other money coming in? As a revenue stream, no. Okay. Together we bring in about $118 gross per year right now. Working. You're still working. Yes, I'm still working. Yeah, okay. But, I mean, if you retired...

You'd be on 8% of that max of your nest egg with no payments in the world plus Social Security, right? Correct. So you'd have about half what you got now coming in, but you'd have no house payment. And, of course, the longer you work, the more we change that 400. That does change the equation.

That's correct. Plus those changes in social security. Yeah. Not enough to worry about. I wouldn't keep working for that. But I like working because I like accomplishing things. I like helping people. I like the sense of traction that it gives me. And I don't mind making money. I like doing that, too. So as long as you're doing that, I think I'd keep going and I'd pay it off today.

I mean, there's something to be said to not retire. Everybody thinks you have to retire. You don't have to retire. No. In fact, you know, retirement can look however you want it to. You want to work 20 hours a week, 25 hours a week, doing something that keeps you mentally and emotionally active. I'm not talking about wood shop. No, you don't have to. Talking about go do something in your career field, in your discipline, where you make some bank. Yeah, and you're doing something. You might do business coaching and make more in 20 hours than you're making now. Right. Yeah. I mean, something high.

With a high level of sophistication. I mean, when sometimes people say, you know, I'm going to be a fishing guy, that's not what I'm talking about. No, listen, I just read an article last week that hiring managers with the wave of Gen Z coming into the workforce, they are actively trying to hire older people.

the ageism that has been in existence for a while is dissipating. If you're in your 60s, you got some skill and experience. You're a great locker room presence for hiring managers. They'll hire you now. So to your point, you can stay active longer and work and do really well because companies are looking for that older, seasoned veteran, if you want to use that

football analogy or basketball analogy. I have not heard that, but I've got an instant theory that pops into my head. What's your thought? Well, the thing that I'm hearing all over the place in the leadership circles that I'm running in and where I'm doing entree leadership stuff is that Gen Z is highly skilled in their disciplines, but a lot of them have soft skill problems with relational skills. That's correct. And putting that old dog in there that's very relational is

almost to mentor and train just by their mere presence seems to make a lot of sense. It does, and it also squares with the data that Gen Z over, I want to say about 52% of Gen Z reports saying they want to actually work in the office because they want to be mentored. Keep in mind, what's

One of the effects of this generation of the helicopter parents, Gen X and millennial parents, is that these kids have been guided in helicopter to the point that now when they get in the real world, they actually are craving the good ones with character, not the ones we see on TikTok. They're craving some older mentorship in the office. They want that older guy. The tough old coach. They do. Someone they feel safe with. Hey, this old guy is going to take care of me and show me the roads. He loves me, but he's going to bust me.

Yeah, but they feel security in that someone's going to show me what to do. So there are some benefits. My point here to our greater audience is don't assume that your value drops in your 60s. The data says otherwise. Hmm, hmm.

That's interesting. And certainly that's true for Al. We didn't stay with Al long enough to find out what his actual career is, but he's obviously making some money, six figures coming into the house. And I was also going to ask you, depending on how much his house has worked, does that change your advice there on that? No, because here's the thing. The largest line item, folks, in your budget at any time in your life, the most expensive item in your budget is housing, your biggest expense.

Even if your house is paid for, it's still your biggest expense with taxes, insurance, and maintenance, right? So it's still housing is your biggest expense. When you can do away with the payment part of that expense, it stabilizes your golden years. I mean, when you go from 60 to 90...

That 30-year period of time with no house payment, with that kind of stability, it changes your emotional state. And therefore, it actually affects your health because you're not, as Dr. John Deloney says, you're not carrying around that stress between your shoulder blades.

which debt is, stress between your shoulder blades. Whether you actually remember it's there or not, you don't. Right. And I like that. And this is safe money, too, because as they get older, maybe they need to go into some assisted care. That house is sitting there. That's money waiting for them to cash out. Yeah, and it's just, it...

is one of the two things that we see with the people that have the first $1 to $5 million of net worth, your first million dollars up to your first $5 million, is a paid-for house and a big old 401K. And he's got both now, or he's about to have both if he does that. So Al's done a really good job. He's in the top probably 4% or 5% of Americans financially in his situation. He's done excellent work.

Um, and even at that, we're saying, Oh, I wish it was a little bit more. Sure. You know, but he's making a hundred a year. So you thought you start throwing, load that 401k up, load the IRAs up, anything else you can load up for the next and work three more years, four more years. Yeah.

That all of a sudden then that becomes a no brainer, right? That changes everything. If you had to retire today on that, that's when it kind of gives you, I want to take a little bit of a breath there. Right. Pretty crazy. But, um, isn't that a wonderful thing though, that that guy has been listening all those years to us and has gone and done the stuff and is in really, really good shape. Congratulations, sir. Very proud of you. Very, very, very well done. And, um,

You know, folks, you just don't want to get to retirement, and the only thing you have is the government, which is well known for its ability to handle money, is going to take care of me. That's a pretty dumb idea. That's the definition of insanity. This is the Ramsey Show.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey good folks, the back-to-school madness is upon us. It's hitting us right now. We got travel and work and all these forms to fill out now and sports to travel to and on and on. My family's schedule is so packed and we haven't even begun talking about things like exercise and date nights and counseling and church and home projects. And those are the things that make our life even worth living.

Here's what I've learned. When it comes to taking care of me, I have to put on my oxygen mask first. And that means that I have to do the things that keep me well and whole. And I know that you have to do those same things too. So don't skip the things that matter to you, including regular exercise, hanging out with your friends and regular therapy appointments. And when it comes to therapy, contact my friends at betterhelp.com.

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Call my friends at BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Deloney today for 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author of the book Paycheck to Purpose is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. Josh and Claire are with us in Des Moines, Iowa. Hi, guys. How are you? We are good. Cool. How can we help?

Well, we had a question if we should sell our house and move and rent or if we should stay put. And the reason we're asking is because we have some debt and we both drive about 40 minutes each way to our jobs. Which wasn't how it was when we bought the house originally. Okay. How much debt do you have? Combined without the house is about $100,000. On what?

$86,000 on student loans, about $10,000 on a car. Yeah, that's it. What's your household income? About $90,000 a year. Okay, cool. All right. And what's the house worth? About $200,000. What do you owe on it? Say that again? What do you owe on it? About $175,000.

Okay, so by the time you sell it, you don't have much equity, if any. No. Okay, so it doesn't really pay off any debt. It just gets rid of the house and you move closer. Mm-hmm. Okay, so it doesn't pay off of $100,000 in debt, right? Am I missing something? No, we're just wondering if... You just want to move closer to work. Right.

Well, that and the cost of renting versus paying the mortgage, is it worth to be closer to work? Well, that's what I want to know. So what's the difference? Give us the difference between what rent would be if you move closer versus your current mortgage. Our current mortgage is about $1,500, and rent will be about $1,500 to $1,700. Okay. So let's pretend it's $1,500. All you did was just trade a mortgage payment for...

For a house payment, but you got considerable blocks of time back, which I would then use to make extra money and work more and get this debt paid off. That would be the goal. I think just doing that and spinning your wheels, I would not do.

Okay. We also just had a baby boy about three months ago. Congratulations. So we're still trying to figure that out too. Yeah, well, you're not sleeping now, so that's it. That's true. I want to know what Claire thinks. Claire, if all things were equal, would you rather be closer to where you work or is it easier to change jobs as opposed to change the house situation? I know you guys have thought through this. Yeah.

Yeah. So the original thought was that when we bought the house, I was like 15 minutes from my job and Josh was like 40 minutes from his, which we knew was a sacrifice being in the Metro. We knew somebody would have to drive. But right now, Josh just finished his master's in educational leadership. And so we're not even really sure how long we're going to stay in Des Moines, but it feels like he leaves at 630 and doesn't get home till 530. I'm an occupational therapist, so I'm, I

My schedule is just flexible everywhere. And so it feels like, yeah, the time, it's hard to figure out, like, is it worth the same cost in the effort to sell a house versus rent? But like we would get some time back. And especially with a newborn, it feels like time is more important than everything right now. So, yeah, I don't know. We're just trying to balance that out. What's your gut telling you? Before we weighed in, where were you leaning?

I was leaning towards selling to get time back. That's the call I would make. So as a parent, I'm thinking through that. And I'm also thinking about the fact that with hubs here, Josh getting the master's, we

We don't know we're going to be in Des Moines long-term. I like the flexibility, and it looks like the rent is a wash, basically. You said it's about $200 maybe difference. And to get that time back, as Dave said, we got that time to hustle a little bit, pay some debt. But I think renting at this point gives us options if we're moving. I kind of like that as a bridge. What do you think, Dave? I feel like options right now are better since they don't know they're there long-term. Yes. Yeah.

I, what my fear is, and you just, if I were, I always try to figure out if it's me and Sharon doing something, I'm like, how can we screw this up? Right. And we go, okay, if we don't, if we do this part of that, then it's bad. And if we do the whole thing, then it's good. Right. Kind of thing. And so we have to, we all, sometimes we even write that down at our house. You know, we like type it out and go, this is the whole plan. Okay. Simply moving and getting time back and becoming a renter. No. No.

Not a good trade if that's all you do. But if there's a move out of town and up on his career in the future, good play. If you take some of the time you've redeemed for the newborn and some of the time to make some money and clear up this $100,000 in debt, good play.

Uh, cause you've got the flexibility. I mean, if Josh is going to be home more, maybe Claire picks up more hours on some nights and maybe Josh picks up some stuff Saturday mornings. Um, and he continues to look for a different permanent solution with his masters. It's a much higher paying thing as well. So all of that to say three years from today as a result of this and some extra hustle and maybe a move, I want you guys debt free and owning a house.

Yeah. It can't be you get over there and you go, well, we've got a lot of time with the little boy now, and we are renters for the next 10 years because we spin our wheels. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That would be a bad plan. I agree. And that's how I could screw it up if I were in your shoes. So you've got to be careful because what's driving this is the newborn. And if the newborn gets all of this...

Not going to be good for the newborns long term. Not going to be good for anybody's long term if he gets all of the juice from this move. So, yeah, that's a similar thing, but just similar, but similar. Sharon and I sold our home, but we had made about three different changes at the same time. We had our children in a private school. They were 45 minutes away, so an hour and a half each way.

45 over 45 back twice a day to go get them and pick them up. So we got rid of that. We got rid of the private school because we moved into a county, this County, which is the number one County for education in the state. And we moved into that County and, uh, and we rent it and we sold the house and we cleaned up a little bit of last little bit of debt that would survive the bankruptcy. It's my red stuff. So we cleaned up debt. We got rid of the commute. We, uh,

Got rid of the private school, all three of those things, so that we could rent for two years, so that we could move up. And that was a move we made almost 30 years ago. So that was a good move. But if we had just consumed the difference in time and consumed the difference in money and stayed a renter, that would not have been a good move.

You see, that's... Makes sense. But we talked about those exact things at that exact time very clearly. It's real. I mean, it's stuck in my head. And you could ask Sharon Ramsey to this day. She hated that freaking rental house. She hated that kitchen. She can describe that kitchen with anger in her eyes to this day.

She wanted out of there, which is great. It's a great motivator for you. We were not supposed to be there for a while, but for a little bit. It was camping. So chill out. It's camping. It's a camp stove. Leave the stove alone. Right? So it's a rental house, for God's sakes. You know, that kind of stuff. But that's the kind of stuff you want to fight against, Josh and Claire. You guys are awesome. You're awesome parents.

You're obviously thinkers, and you're working together to make these decisions. All of these things say you're going to make the right decision. Yeah, and I think you sell it and move. I do, too. And I echo everything Dave said, Josh and Claire. Here's what I'd like you all to do. I think you have to have a dream conversation tonight about what Josh's next move or moves could be.

And let's figure that out. That will determine the rest of this. That's what Dave just laid out so beautifully. Like, where are we headed? What's the 20-year, 25-year play? And what's the next move? And if a move out of Des Moines for Josh is the next right move, then everything else falls in place. So make that decision first. The baby's fine. Baby has no concept of time. You're tired.

I get it. Your heart hurts. You want to be with them. You can hang on a little bit longer. There's nothing cuter than a brand new baby. No. And so you got to make that big decision first. John Maxwell, our friend, once said, make the big decisions early and manage them for years. This is one of those decisions. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's the big rocks in the glass first, then the next little, then they put the sand in last, it'll hold a lot more. That's right. Put the big rocks in. That old analogy or metaphor that people use. It's a good object lesson for the youth group, right? Yeah, it is, it is. This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth.

do work that they love and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author of the book From Paycheck to Purpose and host of the Ken Coleman Podcast is my co-host today. Be sure you jump in and talk to us. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Abraham is in Lincoln, Nebraska. Hi, Abraham. How are you?

Hello, I'm doing good. Thank you for taking my call today and helping out. Sure. What's up? So, essentially, I'm in the chemical engineering field, and in my current position, I have a great manager and I have a great job, and a job that I enjoy a lot and I get to travel quite a bit for. However, I do know that in comparison to other positions out there that are of similar work,

or that would have the same experience that I have, I can probably get $20,000 to $40,000 more. What do you make? With that in mind, I'm sorry? What do you make? $100,000. Okay. So you think that you could change companies and make $140,000 doing exactly what you do now? Probably even less stress and less work, to be honest. Okay. So my question is, what is...

If I would like to keep my current employment, but with the added benefits of the additional salary, what is the best way to bring that up with my manager? And how do I assess even if it's worth it at all and just go pursue a different... How big a company? It is a global company. Okay. So it's not 100% up to your manager.

No, but their company is run pretty lean and it's similar to your company where it's owned by a single person and that family culture kind of penetrates through and through. Okay, so here's what I want to dive into. Two times you've mentioned the idea that this is either highly stressful, maybe you've got some balance issues. Is that true? Am I hearing that? What's going on with that, the stress part that you've mentioned?

So it's, there's a lot of requirements and a lot of expectations that I am able to meet, but it's still enjoyable. Yeah. So let me ask you this. If I called your boss right now and Dave and I made it happen behind the scenes and we called you back and said, Hey, good news. We got you that 20 to let's split the difference. We got you a 30 K bump. What would your reaction be?

I'd be very happy. Would you even be thinking about going to these other companies where you could make more and do less? Would you even be thinking about it? Okay. So I think that has to be the perspective. So my advice is pretty boilerplate on this. I'm sure Dave will weigh in, but I'm going to put myself in your shoes, but I'm thinking about your leader. And Dave's right. In a company this large,

It's the sole decision on your raise is not in your leader's hands. That's going to have to go up. And so you've got to make a case with your leader that your leader can then decide how they could make the case. So I would not go in just with the data that says, all right, I've looked at other positions out in the marketplace. And when I compare these, by the way, you got to know that they're apples to apples. They rarely are, but.

if they're not apples to apples, you've got to call that out too. And you say, okay, here's the comparison based on skill and experience, and this is the range that I see out in the marketplace. However, I want to be here. And you tell them why you want to be there. Tell them how much you appreciate them, what you've told Dave and I. Then you say, hey, I'd like to have a conversation with you about a growth plan to where I can add more value, and you and I are on the same page about what that value is, how we measure it,

And if we accomplish that, a path to where I can make this kind of money and be more competitive in the marketplace based on this, I want your take on this. Is there a growth plan that we can work on? And now I'm bringing the leader into the conversation and that leader sees that you're grateful.

that you're hungry, but that you've got some humility and you're not asking for a raise. You're going, hey, I'd like to grow to this. What could a path look like that on? And I know that I've got to have more responsibility. I've got to deliver results that we agree on. We measure those. And with that comes more responsibility and more income. That's how I would approach that. Because now you're going to find out two things. Number one, what your relationship is with your leader and how they're handling this and how they're communicating it. And two, you give them something that they get to

build as well. And they've got some ownership because they've got to take this up, as Dave has pointed out. So this is a partnership, not you demanding something. And I don't sense that in your spirit. But the way you approach this, they've got to have buy-in because they've got to present this plan up. They're running a P&L, yes?

I'm not sure what a P&L is. Profit and loss. They're running a business unit. They're running a business unit. And they're responsible for profitability. And you, when you get a raise, guess what that is? Expense. More expenses for them. Yeah. Now, to be frank, my relationship with my manager is excellent. Great. And we've actually had a similar exact type of conversation that you are describing a few years ago, and he's...

He and the company have given me many opportunities. So now, for example, I do projects in a lot of different countries. I want them to give you opportunities. I also want them to give you money. So have you gotten more opportunities but no money over the last couple of years? Give us the track record here.

Yeah, I mean, so I've been employed for five and a half years with the company. Progressed quite a bit. Level of responsibilities in the projects that I'm doing for my... What about your financial progression? It's been, I think, close to $25,000 increase. Over five years? Five and a half years. Five and a half years with... Okay, here's what I want you to do. I want you to do better...

to go with Ken's suggestion than you have done to date. I want some detailed written compensation studies from LinkedIn, Monster.com, whatever, showing this is the detailed description of these people and this is what the average person makes. Not I ran into a guy who's in our industry who's making X.

Okay, I want you to really make the case like you were going before a judge and you were a lawyer, okay? And this is the evidence.

of what the if i'm going to sell a car here's the evidence it's not i had a feeling or i had a friend once who sold a car like that i go and i pull up kbb.com i'll pull up traders and i'll pull up two or three things i find several examples of this car i show them to the person i'm trying to do the deal with and go this is what the reality of this car is

And then they do that. So, because let me tell you what's happened around here at Ramsey is we'll be on the other side of your conversation. We've had people come in and tell us that they're worth $40,000 more. And then we show them that they're not when we do the comp. When we do the detailed study. And then sometimes they come in and tell us that. And we do the comp study and we go, oh, crap, they're right. They're underpaid. And we pay them. We raise their income. And both of those have happened this year.

But sometimes the person bringing it doesn't do their homework. And I want you to do your homework before you have this next conversation and say, I don't want to leave, but I do want to make market. How are we going to work this out? This is The Ramsey Show.

I've been doing this show for over 30 years and some of the saddest calls I have taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible, are people that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills? How am I going to pay my bills?

I'm going to eat next week. Yeah, in the middle of all that grief. Like it's just, it is, it's terrible. So life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Zander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance. And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here.

You got to say it out loud and you got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of stinking pizza. To get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282 or go to zander.com. Thanks for joining us, America. We appreciate all the help you've given us in the past year. Just recently, we hit number one on Apple Podcasts among all podcasts in the world.

That's kind of mind-blowing. Over a billion downloads of this show now. That's really mind-blowing. Billion with a B. That's like a lot.

Thank you, guys. We appreciate that. And you know what's part of the reason is, is you guys are helping us. You're sharing the show. Thank you for sharing it. Clicking the subscribe button, the follow button, the share button, the like button, the five-star reviews. All of these things matter a lot in the old algorithms on podcasts and YouTube and talk radio. You just tell people, spread the word. When you see a good movie, read a good book or hear a good show. And you've been doing that for us. Thank you.

Thank you, thank you. We really, really appreciate it. Our question of the day is brought to you by Neighborly, your hub for home services. That first time you turn on your heating system every year, it can smell funny and maybe even make some noises.

If the noise hasn't stopped since then, don't put it off anymore. Contact AirServe to service your HVAC. AirServe is a neighborly brand dedicated to superior service. So find them at neighborly.com slash Ramsey today. Today's question comes from Joseph in Georgia. I'm 22 and didn't go to college. I feel stuck in this customer service job I have making money.

A little less than $30,000 a year after taxes. I had a few other jobs besides the one I just mentioned, and my favorite was in asphalt paving. I was making the same hourly rate, but within a few months I made close to that yearly amount due to all of the overtime. The paving job left me with no more than around seven to nine hours to eat dinner, shower,

and sleep almost every day, which I hated and it drained me. Should I go back to that job or go study something that could let me be in a similar position I'm in now, but potentially make more than what I currently do? Okay, you're 22, number one.

Number two, I'm seeing a lot of these videos on social media that after my job, I only have seven to nine hours to eat, shower, and sleep almost every day. That's kind of life. That's kind of how it is. When I come home from my very non-labor-intensive job here at Ramsey Solutions—

I'm in bed by 10 o'clock. There's lash marks on your back, I think. I know, but I only have, as I see it, about four to five hours, and my life's pretty great.

So I think we need a perspective shift here. So I'll leave it alone so I don't sound like the old man here. But you need a new perspective on what your long-term goals are as well as your short-term financial goals. What I would say, because I worked in the masonry industry in college, hardest job I ever worked in my life. I was on the job site at 7 a.m., Dave.

mixing the mortar, dumping the mortar in a wheelbarrow, wheeling the wheelbarrow around the job site, which if you've ever been on a home job site, that's like a mogul ski course. That's how you develop those muscles. That's why I am the brawny man I am today, Dave. It's stuck with me. And then when I was done distributing the mortar...

I've got to tell the rest of the story. It was brick tongs, and you repeat this process all day long. It was a 10-hour day. It was the most back-breaking work of my life. I get it. The asphalt paving is a very, very intense job. In this situation, I would look at most of the trades. I really would because the amount of education you need is minimal. The cost is minimal, but the long-term return on the investment of time and money in the trades is

is absolutely spectacular. In fact, for those of you that are younger and you think I'm kind of the old boomer, I'm actually an Xer, but just go on TikTok. It's where you like to hang out and look at all the TikToks of plumbers.

and HVAC people that are making well into the six figures. The trades are the great secret right now for this young generation, so I would be looking that direction. But if you want to win, young Joseph, you're going to be looking at that same schedule. You shouldn't be having 10 and 12 hours of free time if you're serious about working. It's just not a reality, and I don't know where that came from, this idea that I need 8 to 10 hours a day of free time.

I don't get it. Unless it's the college schedule. A lot of partying going on. Yeah, I don't think asphalt's in your future. See, I think you boil this down to two bad things and trying to choose between them. A bad $30,000 a year customer service job and a back-breaking asphalt job.

Those aren't the only two choices. Obviously, the choices are infinite. And so pick up Ken's book from paycheck to purpose. Start thinking about where you want to be when you're 30. If you're 22, clearly define that and then start asking yourself why you want to do that. If you just want to do it for money, you pick the wrong thing you want to pick. And if you just want to do it for passion, but you're going to be broke, you pick the wrong thing.

So you want to make some good money doing something you love and that gives you energy. And then the time will fly by and you won't feel put upon for having worked an entire day. So, um, yeah. So I think you got to say, you know, what have I got to do? Don't pick something based on lifestyle. Don't pick something based on money.

Pick something that gives you energy and that gives you meaning and that you can make money. And again, the time will fly by.

I mean, the old saying, if you pick work you love, every day is a vacation. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Every day is not a vacation for me, and I love what I do. But some days are harder than others, and some days are, you know, even the thing you do turns out to be work. But most days, you know, I do this show for three hours every day.

And I have for 30 years. And those three hours fly by. I look up and go, wow, just a minute I was on there. It's the company you keep. I mean, how could you not enjoy three hours with me, Dick? That's it. That's it. Hey, can we source? The brawny man over here. The brawny brick-tongue guy. I know. It's terrible. Hey, you know what? Benjamin Franklin actually said this. You know, you see all these quotes about these old famous people from history. He actually said this. And

And it's this advice that Joseph and this young generation needs to understand. He said, early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise. And I think we hear that when we're little kids at some point. We think, oh, it's a cute little nursery rhyme. No, that's actually a man. If you read and study Franklin, I know you and I have, the man was maniacal about his daily schedule, very intentional. And as a result, one of the greatest citizens of the world. Forget American history.

I'll guarantee you that has played an element in the level of success I've personally enjoyed. I know it has. I watch you. Because I am a, when I was growing up, I was naturally a night person. I mean, in college, I could stay up till 2 in the morning. I never thought anything about it. And I'd sleep till 10, you know? And I never took any early classes because I was lazy. Didn't get out of bed. I was the same way. But when I graduated from college, got married, became an adult, and I

quit partying all the time, met God, I started going, okay, I'm going to dedicate the first hours of the morning to my mind, my body, and my relationship with God. And so I'm going to read, I'm going to do some kind of exercise, I'm going to spend some time with Sharon, I'm going to spend some time in prayer and with scripture. And Sharon and I have gotten up at 5 a.m. for

I don't know, 30 years. Wow. Yeah. And we go and, you know, we were old people before we were old people. And, you know, we go to bed and we get up. And, you know, by the time I get to the office at 830, I mean, I've done half a day's work in one way or another around the house. And, you know, all the time.

all that stuff. And I'm not bragging on me. I'm just saying the stuff that I get out of my scripture and my prayer time in the morning, the stuff I get out of reading a good nonfiction book in the morning, making sure I'm connected with Sharon and we've got the day laid out. And by the time I get to work, I'm not stumbling into the first meeting fuzzy and hung over. That's right. You know, it's exactly. And I haven't, you know, in, in 30 plus years. So that's, you just, you,

that, you know, worried about my leisure time. Instead, I've got early to bed, early to rise makes you healthy, wealthy, and wise. And it does do that. It does do that. Franklin was on to something there. So something to think about. You know, you set your morning schedule. I met a guy when I first met God that knew the Bible inside and out. And I said, how do you do this? He goes, well, I read this many. I read three hours a morning on Scripture. I'm like, how do you read three hours?

He goes, well, I start at 4. Yeah, that'll do it. I'm like, how do you start at 4? How do you get up? He goes, well, if you want to get up that early, you've got to go to bed early. Oh, there's that. Okay. This is the Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personalities. My co-host, Cammie, is with us in Sacramento. Hi, Cammie. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Well, you've got to push the button, old Dave. Did I push it? I did push it. Hi, Cammie. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up?

I am calling because I want your insight on how I should start with long-term investing as a 21-year-old with no debt, no credit, and about $40,000 in savings. Way to go. Yeah. Wow. What a great head start. Thank you. You're obviously very smart. How did you learn all this?

Um, well, Dave, I have fantastic parents who are huge fans of yours. I think I've been listening to you since my drive back from kindergarten. You're a financial peace baby. Okay. I love it. That's awesome. Well, then, you know, that we teach folks to stay out of debt, which you have done to have a plan, which you have done.

to have an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses, which you have done, and then start investing 15% of your income into your retirement, first with a match, second with a Roth, and third, just make sure you get 15% in there. And once you're doing that, any money you have above that to save and invest, I'd start saving towards my first house.

Okay, and I'm curious about having the no credit, what your thoughts are on that, because I know you talk about buying your house in cash and kind of your process with that. Buying a house with cash means you don't need credit, number one. Number two, if you don't have credit and you want to buy a home with a mortgage, you do that with what's called manual underwriting.

Not all mortgage companies know how to do that anymore. Churchill Mortgage that we've endorsed for almost 30 years does know how to do that, and they can help you do that. If you're steady on your rent and you've been on your job two years and you have a good solid down payment, you do not need a credit score to buy a house.

You get the same premium, excellent interest rate as if you had a very high credit score when you do a manually underwritten situation. You're not there today because you set some of your 40 aside for your emergency fund, some of it aside towards your first house, but that's going to not put you in the housing market today. But you're well on your way, and you'll certainly be there in your early 20s without a doubt. So excellent question, Cammie. Way to go.

Wow. Yeah, I wish more people would pay attention to these calls. Fast forward, she starts investing 15% right now. She hits millionaire status at what age, roughly? 34. Yeah. She'll have a net worth of a million dollars probably in about 14 years. By the way, the American dream is alive and well. Yeah. And that's a Gen Z. That's right. By the way. Yeah. For those of you that are Gen Zs and think that, oh, it's all over. It can't happen. Oh, no.

You know. Oh, God. All the whining that's out there. It's just the drama. It's like every generation that has come along thinks that the generation before them stole all the opportunity. That's right. There's nothing left. The old people took it all. Oh, brother.

And the old people, every generation that's come along, think the next generation is a bunch of doofuses. It's true. It's generational warfare. Neither one are the truth. I mean, this generation is full of wonderful people like Cammie. We've got a building full of Cammies. That's right. I mean, half of our 1,100 people that work here are under 30. Wow. So officially Gen Z. Wow. I mean, we have four new people start this morning. I went up onboarding, hung out with them, talked to them. Really sharp. Oh, God, they're so smart.

And they're going to be great team members and they care deeply. And, you know, just explaining to them, this is going to be the hardest place you've ever worked because you're working with smart people that really care deeply. Yeah. And they're not into internal politics. They're just into getting the work done.

and it makes it really difficult because you've got to, I mean, when you're playing for the Super Bowl with the best in the world, you've got to play hard. You know, it's good. It's a good thing. But there's camis all over the place, man. They're all over the place. I'm thrilled with this Gen Z generation. I think they're amazing. Joe's in Scranton, Pennsylvania. Hi, Joe. How are you? How are you doing, Dave? Thanks for having me. Sure. What's up? Nothing. I just have a question for you.

Okay. So I've been investing in real estate for like the past 15 years. I got kind of lucky. I didn't use your advice. I used leverage, but I sold everything. I am debt free except my mortgage. The issue now is the price of real estate, the rate of return on it's like really bad. So I'm thinking, should I keep what I have, go work on something else, just wait, be patient? I

Me and my wife are a little confused what we should do. She works full-time, but it's kind of what I should do with my life now. Just looking for some advice. How much money you got stacked? About $90,000 cash. The only debt I have is my mortgage, and I owe about $68,000. And you're not working?

Well, I work, I manage my rentals. I currently have about 10 units. Oh, I thought you sold one. I sold a few of them, and I kept. And the ones you have are all debt-free? Correct. Oh, good. Okay. All right. Real estate, I've been buying real estate since 1982. And real estate always goes through ups and downs in terms of rates of return and pricing.

all over the place and so um you know it's very difficult uh following Fauci's pandemic to buy a good deal because house prices as you know shot through the roof and they stayed there they didn't come back down and so the um that makes the rate of return weird and so it sometimes it takes rent prices a while to catch up rents spiked as housing price spiked but not as much

translation the rate of return went down and so um you know on houses in particular residential is a little more fickle or a little weirder um so i i have i buy a lot of real estate i love real estate but i have ebbed and flowed throughout the decades as to you know there's times i just sit on the sideline and watch the craziness i'm not getting in

I don't like the rules. And today's one of them. Today, the rates of return, I agree with you, are not really high. But if I can find something at a deal, for whatever the reason, if it's because the marketplace has slowed down or because I just stumbled upon something that's a deal, then I will step into it and we'll go do it. And sometimes the deal is made up of the situation and it has nothing to do with the economy, locally or nationally.

It's just you find a distressed property of some sort or a distressed seller of some sort, and you're able to slip in with some cash and do a great deal. So I'm not completely sidelined, but I'm also not just running around buying everything in sight. Now, I'll tell you when I did buy everything in sight, I dropped almost every coin of cash I had into real estate in 2008 and 2009.

because I was buying stuff at 15 and 20 cents on the dollar after the 2008 crash. It was the best buying time in my adult life. Um, and I've never bought as much sense. I mean, we bought everything we could get our hands on. It's some of the best properties I own today, uh, rate of return wise are obviously those cause I got nothing in them. Um, and so, but it does ebb and flow. So just put yourself on the sideline until you get a great deal or until the marketplace shifts and more deals are out there. Either one's fine. Um,

In the meantime, you may want to do something for an income because managing 10 units is not a full-time job. Well, the other thing I want to know is he's got $90,000 set aside and he still has a house payment. It's his only debt. I'm probably going to clear that. I'd want to clear that, especially while we're sitting on the sidelines. So the $90,000 goes into the house. Yeah, if you don't stumble upon a deal to put that back into pretty quick.

I'm probably going to go ahead and clear that mortgage and then start stacking cash out of the rentals and out of whatever else I can do. I mean, you may want to go into the service side of the real estate business, go ahead and get your license, become a property manager, manage other people's properties and yours. Um, I did that at one point, many, many moons ago. Um, I can tell you it wasn't my favorite thing to do, but, um,

But I did do it for some extra cash flow at the time. It worked out good. It was fine. It just, ugh. But anyway, if you want to do that instead of go get a job, you can do that, right? That's a different way of approaching this. Good question, man. Sounds like you got a good run going. This is The Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Open phones here at 888-825-5222.

Ken, I just got a report in that your assessment, the Getting Clear? Yeah, the Get Clear Assessment. The Get Clear Assessment is one of our most profitable product lines.

We knew we had a good year. It's been really fun and rewarding to see that. People getting aware of who they really are. The way we translate that around Ramsey is it means we have something that's helping a lot of people. Yeah. Because otherwise we don't make money on it. If we make money, it means that we helped a lot of people. There's a correlation between those two things. If we sell a lot of books, that's a lot of somebody got helped, right? Same kind of thing. We have three new products that came out.

Late fall, just in time for Christmas, all three are doing very, very well. And also, Rachel Cruz, my daughter's new book in the children's space, a children's book. I'm glad for what I have. Her first ever illustrated kids book hit number one in the kids lists. And it is a great, beautiful little book and a lot of fun for the kiddos. Breaking Free from Broke, unbelievable data and lots of snark. George Camel.

The book comes out on January the 16th. If you hear this before then, you can get $100 worth of goodies if you order the book early, included in the $20 price. And Jade Warshaw's Quick Read.

Money is not a math problem. Hit number five on the bestseller list this weekend. Oh, fantastic. So Jade is officially a national bestseller. Her first time to be on one of the lists. So we're congratulating her and running around this place screaming and yelling and celebrating on her behalf. So all of those things are available at RamseySolutions.com. Be sure and check them out. Allison's with us in Jacksonville, Florida. Hi, Allison. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Thank you, Dave. How are you today? Better than I deserve. What's up in your world? Well, my husband and I are in a little bit of financial distress, and we're looking to see where we can cut corners, and we would like to reduce our car payments. One of our car payments is $508, and the other one is like $644.

but we're upside down on them. And so we don't have the money to pay the difference of the upside down part. And we wondered what is your advice on what we would do in that situation. Boy, you're deep in it. Yeah, we're deep in it. What's your household income? $115,000, and I'm looking for a job. Oh, you're not working. He makes $115,000?

Right. Okay, good. What will you be making when you get your job? Maybe about $1,200 a month. Why so low? Because it's just a cashier-type job. Do you have any previous work experience?

As a photographer, I was a photographer, had my own business, but I wasn't a very good business person. How old are you two? I'm 58 and he's 66. You can make $20 an hour, which is a lot more than $1,400 a month at freaking Target.

Okay. So, I mean, you're going to do a lot better than you think you're going to do if you get out there and poke around a little bit. That's right. Even on an entry-level cashier, you can do a lot better than what you're thinking. Anyway, the car that has the $600, $650 car payment, what do you owe on that car? I think we owe around $24,000. Really? What's it worth? I don't know. How do you know you're upside down?

Um, my husband, my husband tells me these things. Okay. Um, it's an, it's an electronic mini Cooper, uh, or electric mini Cooper. So did you guys get, did you get screwed on the interest rate? Cause that's a very high payment for 24,000. Yeah. Yeah. Our, our, our, um, your credit rating is real bad. So they stuck it to you with a, they electrified you with electric mini Cooper. Yeah. That's what they did. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, what year is that?

It's a 2023. 23, okay. Sorry, Dave. Oh, so you just recently made this mistake. Yeah. Yes. Okay. All right. So let's just give you some numbers as an example to answer your question. Do you know who you owe the money to? Yes. Who? We owe it to the Mini Cooper Financial. Okay. What about the other car? Who's it owed to?

Uh, by star credit union. Ah, okay. And, uh, that's the 550. Do you know what you owe on that one? Uh, 20,000. Okay. I'm going to use that one as an example. Okay. Let's pretend that when you look it up, you find out that that car is worth $15,000 and you owe 20 on it and you're upside down $5,000. You follow my example? Yes. I have no idea. I'm just making this up to show you how it works. Okay. Okay.

You have two options, three options. One is you live on beans and rice, rice and beans, and save up $5,000, sell the car for $15,000, add $5,000 to it, go down to the credit union, get the title, and give it to the buyer. Option number two is borrow the $5,000 somewhere else. Option number three on that one is you talk to the credit union about letting you sign a note for the difference.

Okay. Now you're going to owe $5,000 instead of $20,000. And on the other one, you're $7,000 upside down maybe. I don't know. I'm making that up. And you're going to owe $7,000 instead of $24,000. And so now we've got a total of $12,000 in debt instead of a total of $44,000 in debt. So we're moving in the right direction. We get a couple of beater cars, get this mess cleaned up, and pay cash for a little bit of a move-up in car out of the beaters a little bit later.

the credit union let me sign a note for the difference they might go down sit and talk to the manager with you and your husband because here's the situation if they repo the car they're not going to get even 15 for it so they have currently an unsecured note for five and a secured note for 15 all we're asking them to do is admit it okay you understand what i'm saying

And sign a note for the difference. Note for the difference. Let me sell it for what it'll bring. I'll bring the buyer in and I'll sign a note for the difference because these payments are killing me. And they might even loan you the money for the amount that you're upside down in that other one. All right. I'd mess with them, especially if you've got a long relationship with that credit union. But go sit down in person and talk to the credit union manager. Don't do this by email or over the phone. Easy to tell somebody no unless you're sitting across the desk from you.

Okay. Do you have any idea how many miles you have on that Mini Cooper, the electric? Around 50. You also need one of the assignments I'm going to add to this. I'm just doing some quick web research, so I don't want to hold you to this, but I would be looking to see if that thing is worth what you owe on it right now or pretty close to it. You might be able to break even on that one. Which would be the play. Okay.

But you've got to check that out right now. What's it worth right now if you sell it private seller? Now, a dealership's not going to give you what it's worth for private seller. I would be looking at that Blue Book value today. Put the thing on the market on Craigslist and Trader.com and get it sold for $25,000. Instead of losing money, you gain money because I'm looking over Ken's shoulder right now. I see $27,000, $29,000 might be the value on this thing. Yes.

Okay. So y'all look at that and let's make sure. Because if your husband is looking at trade-in value only instead of private sale, and that's how he determines you're upside down, then he's just signing you up again for another mess. Because y'all really suck at doing car deals.

I mean, everything you've touched around cars really sucks. So I'm really not trusting your husband's input at this point. I'm not mad at him, but I'm just saying y'all need to do detailed research, sell these things for as much as you can sell them for to an individual, borrow the difference or sign a note for the difference and quit signing up for ridiculous interest rates and stupid, but car deals that, Oh my God, an electric mini Cooper. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Somebody got impulse fever. Yeah. And it wasn't an electric impulse. I'm just saying.

I was wondering if that's where you were going. Oh, man. And by the way, I just pulled up just for our friend and Allison and all of you that kind of wonder, Dave, what is he talking about? Is it going to work? Yes. I'm looking at some really decent cars in the Jacksonville area under $5,000, folks. It is doable. What Dave played off, it's really doable. 2003 Honda Accord EX, $4,900. A Honda will run for like 300 decades. Until God comes back. I'm telling you.

A lot longer than an electric Mini Cooper will. That's true, actually. Oh, gag. This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth.

do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, host of the Ken Coleman Podcast, and number one best-selling author of the book Paycheck to Purpose, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. We're so glad you're here. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Holden is with us. He's in Austin, Texas. Hi, Holden. How are you?

Hi, I'm good. Thanks, Dave. And Ken, thanks for having me on. Sure. What's up? I am 39. I live with my wife and two daughters. We are debt-free, thanks to my wife and to your plan. We do owe $260,000 on a house worth about $550,000. I'm an industrial designer with a master's degree. I was making $80,000 about a year ago.

before I was laid off and I made about 50 contracting this past year. And I'm considering a career change between my undergraduate and grad school. I was a substitute teacher for a few years, had some long-term jobs and I love teaching. I've had some good, my design career, I've had some good moments but I've lacked some fulfillment and I've always felt called to go back to teaching.

And I'm calling for advice on how to make that decision and how to look at it from a financial perspective. Is that K through 12? Yes. I like to teach art. Okay. And have you considered the higher education level? I have. I was looking at a community college here. Okay.

and haven't been able to get my foot in the door. What is the pay range? Do you know the difference between community college professor versus K-12 in the Austin area? Yeah, starting it would be about $10,000 more at the community college. Well, what are those totals? What's the number? About $53,000 for K-12 and maybe $12,000 more around $65,000 at the community college. Okay.

And you've substitute taught enough to know that you really like that environment. And the reason I'm asking this is because I absolutely respect the calling. And if you've tasted enough of it to where you know the good, the bad, and the ugly, I think it's a different, deeper conversation. But candidly...

The public school environment across the nation as a whole is not very good. The National Education Association's own numbers show that 52% of the current teaching population are considering leaving because it is a very difficult environment. And so I'm leading with that because I want to make sure you know what you're heading into.

Right. Do you? I did teach for, yeah, I taught in some difficult schools in Baltimore City. I had long-term jobs during that stretch, teaching for half a school year, two times. So, yeah.

And, yeah, I understand that it is difficult, but I feel ready. Okay. If you had both options on the table, and let's go a step above community college. Let's go higher ed, community college level, then K-12. If you had a job waiting at all three of those levels, which one would you choose? I would choose the K-12. Because of that age group, you really have a real draw to that age group? Because of that, yeah. Yeah.

And to teach art. Yeah. No, I get that. I'm sorry. They don't teach art in a four-year university? Well, my degree is in industrial design, so. I know. That wasn't what Ken asked you. Yeah. You qualified this, and you qualified to force you into this answer that you've predetermined is the way to go that makes you happy. Because you've got income. I don't know why you can't teach art in a four-year just because you have an industrial arts degree. Right. Right.

No, I would definitely be open to that possibility, teaching at a higher education. Well, you have to look at that, because here's what I'm getting at when I ask this question. Is it about instructing?

the specific topic that gives you the joy or is it about instructing kids in a certain age group in the topic? That's really important because if you look at the numbers, you were making 80 before you got laid off and then you made 50 as a contractor. What I'm trying to do is show you that you can do something you really enjoy and make close to 80. There might be some short-term sacrifice, but I think you've got to look at all your options and I think you've limited your options is what I'm trying to help you see.

Right. Yeah, I understand. There's a weird thing that Ken and I have observed over 20 years, and you and I have talked about it many times, that sometimes, more times than not, for some reason, I don't understand the reason, people get in their heads that in order to do something that they love, it automatically means they make less. And I don't know where this comes from.

Because it ought to be just the opposite. If you're doing something you love, you ought to automatically make more because you would be enthused and creative and motivated and everything else. But we trap ourselves into this. The only way I can do something I love is I have to sacrifice my income. And that's just not true. By the way, Holden, I'm a teacher. Yeah, that's right. I teach for a living.

I'm probably the best paid teacher you'll ever met me, but, but I'm, I'm, that's what I do. It's one of my gifts, one of my spiritual gifts, leadership and teaching. And, uh, and I'm very good at it. I'm not good at a lot of other things, but, uh, but it's, you know, I teach adults and a lot of different formats and variations. And I didn't decide just because I love teaching.

watching the light bulb come on over someone's head after I present them an idea and they go, I'm going to take that next step. I'm going to do that next thing. A good teacher loves that moment like you do. And I do. Um,

But I didn't decide that that meant I had to make less. There's another path here, Holden, that I would suggest to you. What if you get back in the industrial design game? Let's say you get back in at 80. Or let's say that you repeat the year you had last year, and I think you should have higher sights than 50 as a freelancer. But let's say you did 50 again as an instructional designer.

How can you do art tutoring and lessons and things like that in an Austin, Texas area where the income would support it? Could you make $30,000 or more over the next 12 months as you begin to take that love of instructing art and you begin to teach some kids and some wealthy families private lessons? There's a couple ways to get to this. And that's what Dave and I are challenging you on is to see all of the ways that

that you can make the same income, if not more, and work your way into this. It's not a just all or nothing proposition here. Yeah, that's exactly right. By the way, the

Just to be very clear, the data that you're citing on the teachers leaving the classroom are not leaving the classroom. The indications are because of the children. No, no. It's the bureaucracy. It's the politics. That's right. And the bureaucracy and the ridiculous, you know. They've taken everything away from the teacher's ability to teach. That's correct. And it frustrated the crap out of them.

And so because they're all worried about some kind of virtue signaling rather than actually doing the job of teaching. This is The Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you hanging out. I'm Dave Ramsey. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Annie is with us in Indianapolis. Hi, Annie. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi. Hi, what's up? Well, thank you for taking my call. Hi.

So I am just looking for advice on how to talk to my teenage foster son about money in a way that isn't shameful towards his, like, reality, I guess. In a way that isn't what towards his reality? Like making him feel shameful. Shameful. Oh, I see. Making him feel bad. Yeah. Okay. So he's coming from a poor environment and you don't want to make him feel bad for that. That's good. That's sweet. Good for you. Okay. Okay.

How old is he? He's 15. And I can give you, like, an example of something, if that would help. Sure. Okay. So, like, for Christmas, these options are, like, crazy expensive things. And we're like, you know, we don't have the money for that. We can do this instead. And he's like, well, like, I know you have money. And it's like, yeah, but, you know, we have to buy groceries and all these things. And he's like, well, just swipe your food card.

Like, well, we don't have a food card. And he's talking about like snaps. So like things like that, like he doesn't understand. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. And how long has he been with you? Almost two months. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, if he's been in and out of foster, he may be manipulating you.

Okay, that's a possibility with that. It may not be simple ignorance. It may be a sense of I'm going to get what I can get before they dump me back out into the system. Okay, so beware of that and be careful with that because a teenager that's been in and out of that system, they know the plan and they know how to work it. And so you've got to be loving and kind. It's not a matter of shaming someone, but be very aware that

He may not care about your goals or your money. He may just think, I better, you know, I can get this expensive gift, and then when I'm gone, I'll leave with those tennis shoes or that jacket or whatever it is he's wanting. Okay, so that's a possibility. But all that aside, we still need to try to minister to him, try to help him while he's under your control.

care, and that's so that you've still got the right question you're asking. But having said that, then what do we do? Well, I would just sit down and say, hey, you know, I'm not sure if you care about this, but let me show you how this stuff works and show him a budget, that this is the money comes in and every dollar has an assignment, and we spend some of it on the necessities of life, food, shelter, clothing,

transportation, utilities. We spend some of it on enjoyment, and we invest some of it for the future. And that's what has enabled us to be in a financial position to be able to bring you into our home as a foster child and feed you.

And so we have to manage the whole thing, not just do we have the money for that gift. And let him look at it holistically over your shoulder. So when our oldest one turned 12, I sat down back in those days, we did a paper budget.

And I had her look at the budget with me and then actually start, back in those days we wrote checks. And you remember what those were. But she would write out the checks and I would sign them. And I'll never forget that she's like 11 or 12 years old and she's a sweet, sweet kid. And she's looking at this and she goes, the electricity is $340, Dad? Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah, that's just for one month, honey. She goes, oh, man, I see why mom's yelling at us to keep the door closed all the time. Unbelievable. And turn off all the lights. I now know why she's saying that. I'm like, oh. So she related it, you know, this request for, you know, to behave and not act like you're raising a barn. She finally related it to an actual economic thing, and she went, good Lord. Because this kid probably has no idea what your electric bill is.

He may not care, but he has no idea what the electric bill is. And so when he actually sees that and you go, that's why when you are staying with us, it's warm in this house because we pay that bill. And so I would introduce him to the whole picture of generosity, of future thinking called saving and investing, of making sure necessities are taken care of before we do luxury things. And then...

we may not choose to buy expensive gifts so that we can do these other things. And he might come away going, oh, that's how rich people do it. And, Annie, I would recommend you don't commit to this long term because I understand the volatility sometimes of these situations. But if I were you, I would come up with a small amount, not a huge amount of money,

What's small? Give me an example. Well, I don't know their budget. What do you guys make? What do you guys make income-wise? Like a year? Yeah. Around $85. Okay. Let me just say maybe you do this for two months and take $100. And I would sit down and explain the concept of give, save, and spend and living on 80%. Just as an example, say, hey, I want to teach you some basic concepts.

And I would say, here's what we're going to do for two months. And $100 may be too much. Maybe it's 50 bucks. Okay. The point is, is I would give that child a chance to make some mistakes. I'd teach them how to do it. Say, okay, if we're going to give you 50 bucks for a month, you're 15, 50 bucks. I think you should save money.

I think you should give 10% to somebody. You choose who you want to give that to. And the rest of it is we're going to let you just spend that how you want to with your friends or whatever. And just I want you to learn how to manage this money because long term and then show them based on a $30,000 salary, a $60,000 salary. I would try to teach with some real money knowing that you've budgeted for it. If he blows it, he blows it, but he learned something through failure.

I just think that's a valuable experience for some of these kids to realize how quickly money gets spent. Because I'll tell you something. This kid goes out with only $50. Well, $100, it's going to go quick if they want to go to a restaurant with their buddies. Our kids are learning that with the money they've made, Dave, working. They realize how quick it is. Oh, you want to go to the little place with your friends? Oh, yeah, an appetizer, a meal. Oh, you're broke. Yeah. And, Annie, you know, I guess one other thing, because this is great, such a great question. Thanks for letting us go off on it.

Um, I would tell him, say, you know, when I first started my adult life, I didn't have any money. And, uh, and so what I did though, was I started looking at what rich people do because rich people handle money. That's how they get rich. And so here's what I learned from the rich people. They always give some, they always save some, and they're always wise with their spending.

And, um, and then you could implement what Ken's talking about in that setting. And you just teach him, you know, this is, this is what I learned. I learned if you, if someone's doing something well, you can emulate copy what they are doing. And then you can be like them. If you want to be skinny, eat what skinny people eat, right? If you want a great marriage, talk to people who've been married 67 years, not 67 minutes.

And, you know, let's learn how they did that. And let's emulate successful people. That's called in business best practices. And you could tell teenagers this and they get it. And so, you know, I want to do rich people stuff with money because I got a good chance of being rich people. If I do poor people stuff with money, I got a good chance of being poor people.

Because the only reason they're poor is not outside variables. Some of it is outside variables. Some of it's oppression, bad systems, bad thinking. There's a lot of things that cause people to be poor that aren't their fault. But some of it is behavior.

And so the only one you can control is behavior, and that's how we meet people that used to be poor and now are rich, because they controlled the only thing they could control, which is their behavior, and to not spend everything they make on Friday night. Thank God it's Friday. This is not a rich people saying, right? And so they think in 10-year blocks of time, not the attention span of a gnat.

And so these are things you can teach him and talk to him about. And it's not about, there's no shame in any of that. Would never shame someone for where they're from. Because I've been there too. But I want to talk about behaviors that are going to get us to a better place. This is the Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. We're so glad you are here. Phone number is 888-825-5225.

Jordan is in Daytona Beach. Hi, Jordan. Welcome. Hey, good afternoon, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. How can we help? So I just got started on the EveryDollar tool. I was actually out to lunch with my manager last week. He told me about it. I looked it up and immediately signed up. Cool. Thank you. I'm really excited to get started on that. Thank you for making it. So I've done Baby Step 1. Luckily, I had the

The starter fund, emergency fund saved up already. So I'm jumping right to step two, which gets scary real fast. So basically, quick rundown. I've got about $58,000 in consumer debts. My question to you is,

I have an old 401k. It's got about $22,000 on it. I've been sitting there for a couple of years. I haven't added anything to it. Is it a smart move to close that out and use that as a jumpstart on my debts? Okay. Good question. What do you make? Um, it's a 60, 60 to 65. That's your household income. Um, yes. Okay. All right. Good. And, um,

Okay. Technicality to start with, you can't add to an old 401k. You can only roll it to an IRA. You can only add to a 401k where you currently work.

This is an old employer. That doesn't matter, but that's a technicality. The second thing then is, here's the thing. When you cash out a retirement account, an IRA or a 401k before 59 and a half, they charge you a 10% penalty plus your tax rate. Your tax rate will be probably 25%.

And so you're going to be hit with 35% here. And so mathematically, that's like you calling up and saying, Dave, I'm really enthused about getting out of debt. I want to borrow some money at 35% interest.

Oh, man. Yeah, we wouldn't do that. We wouldn't do that. So we don't want to give the government half of this or a third of this money, seven, eight thousand bucks. So I'm going to. Yeah, I wish I wish it would work, but it's not a good shortcut for that reason. People do it. But when they do it, it's all emotional. It's not math. The math, the math, the math just screams in your face. Don't do it.

That's exactly why I wanted your advice. Emotionally, I'm looking at it, and I'm like, man, I could knock out a huge chunk of this debt right off the bat and get started. Actually, about $14,000. Because the government would get $7,000 or $8,000, roughly, in where we are. So that's the problem. But I think you're going to get there, and I think you're going to get there because of the way I'm hearing you describe things.

your first interfaces with this after doing this for 30 years, you've got all the symptoms of someone who's going to play through this. You're really going to do it. And so, cause you, you reached a point somewhere in the last few weeks that you went, this sucks. Something has to change and I'm it. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. I mean, I can hear it in your voice and your sentence structure. It's all there. So you're, you're really, you're going to do this. And if you got anything that is non-retirement that you can sell,

you know, the jet ski you haven't used in two years or whatever, I would do that and get this jump started that way. I would do that stuff, but I wouldn't do this. As far as this 401k, I would jump on RamseySolutions.com and click on SmartVestor Pro, sit down and talk to a SmartVestor Pro. Anytime you've got a 401k, when you leave a company, you ought to roll it to an IRA into good growth stock mutual funds. There's 8,000 mutual funds to pick from.

and you'll get a better performance on that portfolio if you learn just a little bit about it. It's really not hard to learn about it. And a SmartVestor Pro can help you do all that and teach you. So, yeah, that's how I would handle this. Good question, sir.

That one comes up a lot over 30 years. Yeah, it does. And it's smart because this guy is thinking he's now, I love what you said. You can tell that he's tasted what the future could look like. He's like, I want that. And I love that. And that's the beauty of the EveryDollar app. When you lay down your stuff on there and you go,

oh crap 58 000 but oh we can do this that's right and i can do this and i can do this and i can do this and you start possibility you know what does this now make possible right that's your brain starts to work that way rather than oh god i'm stuck life sucks

You know, the Biden economy is killing me. The anxiety of my father-in-law. Everything. I mean, everything's killing me here. You know, it's just like everything. Isn't that what budgeting does, Dave? It opens up possibilities. People realize now they're in control. Yeah. It gives you a sense of... It's the weirdest thing. Somebody can be about to be foreclosed on and...

And when I lay out their budget and show them, A, we're not going to get foreclosed on, but B, here's not only the way to stop that, but you're going to make it all the way around the corner and start moving towards wealth. You're not even there yet. You're only six hours in, and yet your anxiety level has dropped way down. Just because you can see the future. It's called hope. Renee is with us in Nashville. Hi, Renee. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Yes, hi. It's so great to talk with you. You too. What's up?

Okay, so this is my second time doing the baby steps because the first time I did not follow instructions. Well, that was coming clean.

You know, and I want to get a bigger shovel. I want to shove more money at my debt. I've already paid off $5,000. I have a total of $21,000 of credit card and personal loans and then my mortgage. And I mainly want to pay off the mortgage. And I just, I want to do this as quickly as possible. How much is the mortgage?

The mortgage is $65,000. Oh, great. What do you make? $60,000. About half of that is tax-free. What do you do? I work for a pharmaceutical company. From home, I work remote. Absolutely love it. It saves me so much money on gas and food and everything. And then the other half is VA. Okay.

Okay. 90% disabled. So that's what you mean by the tax-free income? Yeah. Okay.

So when someone says they want a bigger shovel, that means I want to make some more money, bring in some more money. So based on your experience and what you're doing now, what comes to mind for you if you think about the freelance opportunities that are out there? Because we live in an age right now where freelance work is very available. So what could you do? What do you bring to the table as a skill set that you could start to look for freelance opportunities or even a better full-time job?

Well, I have a lot of friends that do DoorDash. Some of them, it has been a blessing and very lucrative for them. Others, not so much.

That's not a skill set. I can drive a car. I wouldn't call that a skill. In fact, my wife doesn't think I'm a very good driver, if we're being honest. So what are your skill sets that you know, okay, I'm good at organizational things or I'm a project manager. That's what I'm asking you because that's where your opportunity is to make more money.

Okay, I'm good at my job. I'm good at processing medications. Great. That's where I'd be looking. I mean, listen, if you could go from working at home to full-time or taking on another work-from-home job, that's where you need to be looking right now. What's available in my space where I know I have the qualifications, I don't have to learn anything, I just have to say I'm willing and I can come in and make a difference. That's where you start because that's where we double our income potentially.

If you can't double it, anything else right now is extra. That's what you need to be doing, Dave, when you're thinking bigger shovel. Yep, that's right. And it may involve stepping outside of some of your comfort zone. Very few things of growth happen inside the comfort zone. And so it may involve that you do something that's a little bit uncomfortable in order to have the comfort of being completely debt-free. So, I mean, if you found $100,000 extra money in the next three years, you wouldn't even have a mortgage.

That would be very cool. I'd be willing to be uncomfortable for a couple of years to do that. This is the Ramsey Show. Our scripture of the day, 1 Corinthians 13, 6 and 7. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Dr. Martin Luther King said, Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability.

but comes through continuous struggle. Wow. That works in the baby steps right there. Works everywhere. We honor him today on MLK Day. Wow. Absolutely incredible. All right. Cody is with us. Cody is in Indianapolis. Hi, Cody. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Oh, thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up?

So I've been listening to your show since about 2020, and I paid off my debt except for my mortgage and found a way to go to college debt-free through Starboard College Achievement Program, and I got my degree in corporate accounting. Good for you. When I graduated, I started working for an accounting firm in tax and bookkeeping, and I found myself hating every morning to have to get up and go to work.

So my wife and I decided that it would be best for me. How did you go through all that trouble to become an accountant and not realize you hated accounting? It was more about the leadership. Oh, so it's not you hated accounting, you hated that company.

Yes. Oh, okay. All right. I'm back with you. Okay. So you left, I hope. Yes, I did. I quit and decided I'm going to finish my CPA license and give myself some focus. But I also needed to get out of the house, so I got a job as a baker. Okay.

While I was training with the owner, the baker, we talked about my work history of being a manager of restaurants and coffee shops and my work in accounting. And she asked me to take on more of a business development role. And so now I truly love what I do, but I find myself

constantly thinking about work and doing things all day long at all hours of the day with the work. What does a baker need with business development? Yeah, that's my question as well. What are you developing? Well, she owns a series of restaurants, and I am helping her to try and grow her business. What does that mean?

We have a goal of increasing revenue this year, and so she wants to use my skills and do that with him. That's not business development. That's marketing. Business development is where you bring in investors or you bring in outside money of some kind. I mean, developing the business by adding revenue is just marketing. You're trying to get more customers, right?

Well, I'm doing bookkeeping. I'm writing standard operating procedures. I'm working on developing new products. For a bakery. So that means we've got to sell more bread, more cakes, more muffins, right? She owns a series of restaurants. Right. Yeah. Okay. It's more than just the bakery? It's not just the bakery. That's where I started, but that's not where I'm at. Okay. I'm sorry. All right.

All right, so that sounds almost like a COO, like you're doing operations and accounting. Okay, so all right, so you're CFO-COO combo right now. You're doing bookkeeping and looking at the finances and looking at the operations systems. Yes, that's correct. All right, I'm with you. Okay, and you all named that business development. Okay, now I'm caught up. So what's your question then?

So I love what I do, but I feel like I am doing a lot more than what I'm being paid at. When I was making $16 an hour, I was, you know, just in the bakery. I could clock in, clock out, and it was off my mind. And now I'm working overtime.

all the time or what feels like all the time and doing a lot more intensive work than I was before. Is she paying you $16 an hour still? Yes. And so I wanted to ask, how do I negotiate how to negotiate compensation for that? And how long has that been going on?

I've just gotten into this role about a month ago. Oh, okay. But we've set some goals. So why did you want to talk about compensation when we talked about changing your complete job description? That is why I'm calling now. I realized that it was a communication thing and think that I just need to know how to go about. All right. So how many restaurants? Let me try to break this down for you. How many restaurants does she own?

Two with a third one left.

being open. Okay. So what you've got to do is you've got to do your homework, your own numbers guy. And I would start with, you know, uh, the, the revenue I'd find out if she'll tell you certainly what you're in the books. Yeah, that's fair. That's true. You're in the books. Thank you, Dave. Uh, but the grace on the gross revenues of restaurants like that, and someone who's operating like a general manager or a COO for somebody who owns two restaurants. So I'd be looking at what that is paying, uh,

uh out there in the marketplace you've got to start with a baseline and i can tell you it's not 16 an hour so you've got to start with some real research that is what's our top line to figure out for the whole package right now uh just over a million okay all right so what does a coo make for a company that's grossing a million dollars a year it ain't 16 yeah all right so let's look that up

And then go, hey, I looked at this and this is what it appears. You know, I found these three different restaurant companies that are doing about a million and they're paying a COO or CFO, this kind of a thing. It appears I'm doing those types of jobs here. If that's not what you think I'm doing, then let's talk about it. But if I am doing that, then then this is the market rate for that. How do you feel about that?

Okay. One thing I'd pull out of the conversation is just because you're thinking about it all the time and you want to put all this work in, that doesn't mean that, you know, that, that plays into your compensation package too. I know you're excited about it, but also understand that, you know, this compensation you're looking at is, is based on you not thinking about it every second of the day. If you want to think about it every second of the day, that's on you, but make sure you don't kind of fall into that. Well, I'm thinking about it all the time and I'm working 60 hours. If she's not asking you to work 60 hours,

So my point is be level-headed about that. You can care deeply about something and still go home and have dinner with your wife and turn it off. I mean, I do, and I own and run this place for 30 years. That's right. So, I mean, and it's a little more than a million top lines. So, I mean, I turn it off at night. I don't think anything about it.

On Sunday when I'm in church, I'm not sitting and thinking about the payroll here or something. I'm just not. The other thing, Dave, I wanted to get you- Nor have I ever. Yeah, right. And here's the thing. He was talking about, listen, I was on my way to being a CPA. He's still doing that. And then he gets this opportunity. The bakery situation was just a stopgap. Really proud of him for that. But you get an opportunity like this, and it may not be the greatest opportunity. I think it's exciting to him. But I'd also, in this advice we've given him to go, wait a second.

Where am I at on this whole CPA path? And I was heading in this direction. Is this a distraction? I wonder. It's exciting. It's a challenge. This guy who's challenged by this. And I get it. But is it the right path? Yeah. You don't want to end up in something by default. You want to end up in something because of intentionality.

And you, you are in this by default. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, but, um, but it does give us both a reason to give you pause and say, Hey, you had a path in bread baking through you off of it. That's exactly right. And so, uh, you know, do you want to, do you want to do this? And are you intentionally going to turn down a different road than you were on before? That's okay. Okay.

I mean, Yogi Bear said, when you come to a fork in the road, take it, right? Yes, great call. One of the lessons here we all have to learn, Cody, is that we all desire to be wanted. And when somebody comes to us and says, hey, I know you're baking for me, you're doing a good job, but...

The fact that you got this degree in this and this, you could do this for me. And there's something to that to be valued and to be wanted, and that can be a distraction. And sometimes saying yes to something good is the enemy to this idea that we had that was great for us. And that's why I'm asking, just consider it. One of the systems you need to put in place is don't move any more employees to new positions without compensation packages. No.

There is that. I am concerned that it didn't come up at all from a leadership standpoint. From either one of you. Yeah. Neither one of you thought, you know, we're going to talk about the fact that I make $16 an hour and I'm going to run your business from the inside. I don't think so. It should come up. It should come up early in the conversation. Wow. Ken Coleman, good show today. Thank you, sir.

That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

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