3. The Psychology of the 9-5
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Welcome back to the podcast. I hope your week has been well, that something amazing has happened or you got some, you know, cool news. I'm recording this with a little cat on my lap right now and it's very, very satisfying. But this week we're going to be delving into the chaos, the absolute fucking nightmare of the nine-to-five job.

This is a topic that my friends and I talk about all the time. And the general conclusion we most often reach is that the nine to five job should be abolished, left for dead. It's not a happy way of life for many, I think, and myself included. So today we're going to talk about how a nine to five is not conducive to a healthy, rounded and happy way of living, especially when we're young. And we're going to have a special guest come on later. But first, let's just talk about some of the psychological concepts behind

behind why a nine to five work week is actually just really terrible.

So our work can be a big part of our identity and offer some pretty key insights into what's important to us. So it is a really rich area of psychological study. And for many people in their 20s, the transition to full-time work is very much like the transition to adulthood. We have those fun years in university and high school where we have a lot of freedom to work the jobs and the hours we want. And for many, that means that we have our days and, you know, well, our lives just free to do what we wish with.

But that can really come crashing down when we enter the workforce and suddenly we have to adapt our lifestyle to the typical nine to five work week. So I've had this experience recently. I work the typical nine to five every day, every week. And after the first few weeks, the novelty kind of wears off and it really started to wear me down and it can be pretty, you know, fucking depressing. The thing that really got me was that monotonous procedure of going to the same place every day,

the same commute, doing the same silly little tasks surrounded by the same people. And so much of your day becomes devoted to this bigger entity and what's in the interest of this company or organization, which can be, you know, insanely unfulfilling in many instances. And I especially began to notice this when winter struck. You wake up at nine, you know, 730, the sun's still down, commute to work, maybe blasting some music so you don't feel like, you know, an absolute robot. And you finish up after five when the sun is set and

And where has your day gone? Where is this natural instinct to be active in the sun and outdoors going? With the hours you have left, how do you create fulfillment and an identity in so many short hours in such a short period of time when the sun is down and you're exhausted? And I've just come to the conclusion it's almost impossible to remain human in the system and to maintain a concept of yourself beyond your function as a worker or as an employee.

you know, you just end up having so little time to be yourself and to pursue things that truly do bring you joy. Now I know this is not the case for anyone. Some people find work and jobs that inspire them and light a fire under their soul and push them towards really, really great things. And some people find it immensely enjoyable and fulfilling to be devoted to people and projects that are bigger than themselves and a sense of purposefulness and productivity.

There's also that element of money, you know, in a world where we have to pay to exist. No wonder we've become so conditioned to a system that asks us to sacrifice, you know, the majority of our daily hours to work in an office of something we don't particularly love just to afford, you know, the small pleasures in life like rent.

Like I mentioned, this dilemma between being a free spirit and embracing our youth or sacrificing these young years for full-time employment is one I'm sure many of my listeners have experienced, especially if you are going through that transition right now.

It might even be keeping you up at night. I don't know. But even if you don't have this experience, I think we can all recognize this intense societal pressure to enter into this system and the corporate world and work our lives and days away until we're 65, retired, no longer have the bones or the stamina for the life that we actually wanted for ourselves. And when I started investigating this and the psychology behind the nine to five job in our 20s,

It started feeling even more startling and a pretty shitty deal that we've entered voluntarily into. And I have had this feeling recently, like at what point did I actually choose this life for myself and come to the conclusion it would bring me happiness? Like how much of that pressure was external or intangible? Me feeling this idealized equation for a perfect life whereby, you know, you have a good job. That's the foundation and everything else kind of falls around it.

But enough of my rant, let's just get into the psychology behind full-time work. We're going to talk about why a 9-5 job is not ideal for making a living, burnout, exhaustion and the struggle for fulfillment in a modern day capitalist society.

So before we understand the psychological effects of the five-day work week, we have to understand its history. So the truth is this type of work schedule hasn't always been the standard in Australia or many places in the world. So basically in the 1900s, factory workers, they were known for being forced to work 100-hour weeks or more.

But fortunately after years of activist work and many people fighting, the powers that be change began. And now the nine to five work week has kind of become a standard. And we've certainly been really lucky to have people from the past who fought for these labour rights and for more free time.

However, I think many of us still believe we're not really getting the best deal. So there was a study recently, it was a worldwide study that had over 3,000 individuals all working those classic eight hours, sometimes more work days. And findings showed that half of these individuals believe they can do their jobs using only five hour days. This means they think they'd be more productive if they worked fewer hours instead of more or a four day work week instead of five.

which really kind of poses the argument that working eight-hour days and 40-hour weeks aren't necessarily even effective. And further studies have also shown that those who work a nine-to-five job versus those who have flexible work hours, more days off and greater emphasis on ledger, they're more likely to express symptoms of depression, anxiety, they're more likely to laugh less, express less satisfaction with how they use their remaining time and have fewer fulfilling relationships.

According to this recent study that I read about, I think it's only around 30% of the US workforce is engaged in their work. So in other words, they're passionate about their work and they feel strongly committed to their companies. But that leaves 70% of workers who are either not engaged or actively disengaged. So that's 70% of the population who have this work lifestyle who appear quite frankly, quite miserable and not really engaged in what they're doing.

And on average, we spend at least 35% of our waking hours at work. And if we're not happy in our job, then it tends to have pretty far-reaching impacts on other aspects of our lives. And it affects things like our relationships, our sleep, physical health, our ability to relax. So what is it about this system that creates such unhappiness from a psychological perspective? I think it's important just to break it down from an evolutionary perspective to begin.

Humans, they didn't evolve to work a nine-to-five job. We evolved as hunter-gatherers and our innate instincts, our minds, our bodies, they've evolved to suit this context, not that of an office. Our central nervous system and many of the structures and features of our bodies, including our circadian rhythm,

fight or flight systems, sensory systems and cognitive features such as our attention, they've all adapted as a result of that evolutionary environment. So, for example, one of the primary jobs we used to have in a hunter-gatherer society was obviously hunting. And this involved brief spurts of intense activity followed by large amounts of leisure time.

Similarly for those who rely primarily on gathering food, this would have required more time invested but involved large amounts of physical activity, rest time in between and it was the lifestyle that brought about specific and instantaneous rewards such as finding something edible. So both elements of this lifestyle have three important aspects that are no longer present in the modern day work environment.

So firstly, they have this specific task-based reward. You've got time outdoors and you're active and you've got a greater amount of time for leisure as well. So our bodies and minds, they were formed for these activities. They have evolved for environmental stimulation that is varied and involves active and external input from our surroundings.

Our genes, they're still expecting that we chase prey or collect roots and seeds. But human innovation, firstly with the creation of agriculture and manufacturing and industry, it's really moved us away from our natural tendencies and rhythms. And this is why the discomfort and boredom of a nine to five job can be so profound and unsettling for so many of us because we've forced ourselves into a lifestyle that is fundamentally opposed to what our bodies and minds have evolved to do.

What's worse, I think, instead of being outside, people now work in these large buildings. They're awfully tightly packed with people, technology, not much ventilation. And instead of being this tribal creature chasing after your next meal or working alone in small groups, humans have become cells and pretty unindividualized cells in a much larger organism. And it's an organism which has little use for their creativity and their individuality.

Basically, our genes haven't had much time to evolve to this lifestyle. So working nine to five on small tasks and projects that rarely have much larger meaning or you feel anyone could replace you, it doesn't really fit the logic that's hardwired into our DNA. Like I kind of mentioned, we've traded brief spurts of intense focus and activity for long days of continuous monotonous work.

We traded skilled, knowledgeable work for this cog-like activity and we exist in concrete boxes with little time outside or in nature or as individuals as well. And it's really interesting because a lot of organisational psychology has shown that employers who are willing to adopt an evolutionary psychology approach to organising their workplaces, they may drastically improve their workers' overall physical and psychological health as well as their general productivity.

So what impact does the nine to five have on our mental state and our psychological well-being? So not just being asked to fit into a nine to five lifestyle, but also does the things we know we're not doing the things that we aren't passionate about. And we don't really do things that fulfill us cognitively or creatively. And there are some pretty long term consequences of that. Firstly, we've got fatigue, anxiety.

burnout, depression, existential dread, just to name just some fun for you. And long hours, they do cause fatigue, both physical and mental. And that fatigue affects not just the last few hours of a workday, but all hours of the next day. So an employee who drags back to work after only a few hours of rest at home isn't going to be very productive in the morning. Then the next long day ties them out even more. And this kind of punishing cycle begins. And

They're not going to be able to fulfill their other obligations in life or properly utilize their leisure time if they're exhausted, mentally under or overstimulated and dealing with the pressures of the workplace and just life in general. And this is particularly pronounced if it's a big life change kind of shifting into that everyday habit, which it is for those in their 20s who are just entering full-time work. And it's probably why we see so much burnout and dissatisfaction in that age group.

So burnout, it can happen pretty fast and is projected into all areas of life. It doesn't really help anyone maintaining a nine to five schedule. It doesn't help the individual or the employee who has a group of tired, exhausted, you know, unfulfilled young professionals aspiring for better things and greater pleasures of life. And it's not just the nine to five long working hours and blurred boundaries between work life and private life. They're pretty common amongst young professionals and

And for employees, there may be, you know, temporarily acceptable reasons for working longer days. You expect positive career outcomes in terms of a higher salary or intrinsic rewards. But long term, this isn't emotionally or psychologically sustainable.

Burnout, it can present as neglected personal care needs, dim detention, withdrawal, depersonalization, which I talked about in my episode with Kate, emptiness, emotional instability and depression. And in the long term, how do you recover from repeated cases of burnout? Or do you just adapt and begin to detach and close off doors to other areas of your life that might be contributing to your schedule?

Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is by trying to recover from the exhaustion of monotonous office life, you might actually begin sacrificing other elements such as sleep and passion projects and socializing to adapt because so much of your day is being taken up by your work. And it really only leads to you becoming a bit of a shell of yourself.

And I found this quote that I think really captures this pattern of thought. So work time actually is lifetime too. And I don't want to spend my lifetime only at work. And when I read that, it kind of sent me a little bit, made me a bit scared because it really does hit the nail on the head in terms of what we're giving up to work for a larger entity that might not even care about us, might not even know who we are.

And a meta-analysis of, I think it was like 200, over 200 records of all these academic papers that had over 800,000 participants. So think about that, close to a million from 13 countries. It demonstrated that longer working hours, they have a positive relationship with occupational health problems and higher rates of depression and anxiety. And this is particularly the case for employees who report feeling unfulfilled by their projects and their role.

And your ability to enjoy your life beyond your workplace becomes intrinsically linked to your position as this kind of capitalist cog and it strips you of your health and it strips you of your individuality. So this is the question. If the nine to five causes depression, dread, fatigue, burnout, why do young people feel psychologically pressured to submit to it? And we have a guest to explain this a little bit and I'll welcome her in just a second.

So welcome Erin. Hello. Hi. How are we all going this fine? Day? Night? Yeah. Lunchtime? Evening. Midnight. Spicy. Podcast after hours. Podcast after hours? No, that's not the theme of the show. We didn't agree on that. So Erin is a good friend of mine. It's our one year friendiversary. Around this time. Around this time. Definitely. Yeah, I think so. And...

an avid listener of the podcast and also a bit of a nine-to-five expert. I don't know. I feel like you were the first one of our friends to really jump into that kind of way of living. I think I was. Yeah. I think there are a couple of other people, but I started my nine-to-five job

In August last year. So that's almost a year. And she was still doing uni at the time. And I was still doing uni at the time. Which is a terrible idea. If anybody ever says to you. Do a university degree. And work 9-5 Monday to Friday at the same time.

Don't listen. They are not your friend. They are not your friend. Run in the opposite direction as fast as you can. How many courses were you doing? Sorry, I'm eating a cookie, by the way. I was doing... Well, this is what I told myself it was fine. I was doing two courses at the time and then I had to pick up another two to graduate in time. Holy shit. To qualify for my other job, which will remain nameless. Secret. It's secret. No!

Sorry guys, the spud, the cat, just stood up to leave us. This is a very casual episode. I was like, I'm bringing on an expert. But really it's a let's get friendly in disguise. It's a let's get friendly. But we're talking about work. And Erin providing commentary on the cat she's looking after. So you started in August last year. Yes.

Now it's almost August. It's almost been a year. I hate to remind you. I know your concept of time is... My concept of time is short. Probably due to being in an office. A work slave. A work slave for a year. There's a lot of... Sorry, the jingling again. The cat. Please cut the jingles out. Spud. Nobody wants it. So yeah, I've sat in a room...

in an office building breathing in other people's air for a year. Fuck. How terrifying is that? But it's one of those things that I... I think we've talked about this a lot, but being able to afford the lifestyle that you want at one stage at uni, I would go into the grocery store and I would really stress about what I was spending money on. And now I can go out for drinks with friends. I can treat friends.

I can buy... Ubers. Ubers. Yeah, and I guess I try to still be... Do it all within reason because I'm not earning the largest amount of money. But it is nice and there is a certain amount of privilege associated with that that I certainly don't want to take for granted. But also, as I've said, I feel like it's good because you're kind of being like, oh yeah, let's talk about the positives. Because obviously it's not...

modern day slavery like we really make it like i know a lot of the early part of this show was me being like fuck the nine to five my life's so hard like i get paid you know in the top two percent to do nothing but i don't do nothing i i think that i actually do quite a lot of work but like you know erin's made a very good point this is something you sign a contract voluntarily like yeah you know what you're getting into you get to afford things you like and it's it's suddenly i

the position I'm in at least is a lot better than a casual job that I used to work in that doesn't really care about your health and wellbeing. So the workplace that I'm in at the moment,

to, you know, make sure that their workers are looked after properly. And we have people advocating for our rights. And, you know, we've got, like, I'm a member of the union, which I strongly encourage you all to be, all of the listeners. If you're not signed up to your union, definitely do that because they're the ones advocating for positive change in your workplace.

yeah yeah this is a very socialist episode i think and i i don't know i also think we were talking because we had dinner before this and we were talking like i know you can't really get into it because you don't want to get sued to whoever someone from your work listening yes i was about to say someone's name but you know who's name i was about to say but yeah um

But I also think that sometimes they don't always have your best interest at heart. Like, you've had a pretty shitty experience whereby they were pretty standoffish about letting you be flexible. And it really kind of raised those questions of, like, why am I being forced into a nine-to-five, five-day work week when, A, I'm not even being productive, B, it's really bad for my health, and C, you guys don't even need me here. Yeah.

Yeah. As so I'm, I come from this standpoint as somebody with a mental illness. And so I worked five days in my job a year ago. Oh, spud creating noise. It's fine. Um, so as somebody with, uh,

mental illness I worked five days in my job a year ago when I was doing uni and then I dropped down to four days to do uni and my life became eminently so much easier and currently in my current job I'm trying to do that I'm nearly there it took a lot of negotiating and

and a lot of advocating for myself but I I think you can probably attest to this I already just feel so much better because I think there's a there's a huge concept of everybody always asks you your whole life where are you gonna work like what are you gonna do what are you gonna be when you grow up fucking hell I hate that question it's so every time you see I can't say that because they listen to this but like especially older people will often ask that and it's like

why do I need to answer you? I'm 21 years old, 22 years old. Like, I don't know. Also, it just puts this whole emphasis on like, what are you going to do for work? Like work is your whole life. And I remember I told someone like, I'm going to take a year off. And they were like, oh, oh, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'm going to do creative things. I'm like, oh, that'd be really good for your resume. And like, what are you going to do afterwards? And I was like, well,

I don't know. Like, just let me be, just let me exist. Yeah. Just let me exist. So much, so much worth is put on to your productivity and what your career is going to be. Like I've been listening to a lot of other podcasts. Of course, this podcast, loyal listener. Yeah. What do you mean you're listening to other fucking podcasts? But I've listened to a lot of podcasts that are talking about finances and careers. I like, I, there's a beautiful, beautiful Facebook page.

I love this. ...post out here, out there in the world, rather. And it basically says, what's your dream job? I simply do not dream of labor. Yeah. And that's exactly how I feel. Like, I really, until I started having three days on the weekend for myself and four days during the week for work, I had no balance. Like...

And if you're not, I'm sure that there's people with really amazing jobs out there that fulfill them and that's what they want to do. But I often sit at my desk and just think, oh my goodness, what I would give to be outside. And I stare out the window and I go, why am I here? And I think it's like, there's so many skills that I've learned at work.

And all of that. And I think the more that you have a work-life balance, the more going to work is something that isn't terrible. And so for me, like having flexible work arrangements and working part-time has really helped. Quick question. Do you think you can have a flexible work-life balance of five days of your life?

Oh, absolutely not. I don't know. Bring on the four day work week. Honestly, whoever came up with this concept of having to work five days a week, two days on the weekend is simply not enough to do. Like I describe it as I have my day that brings me joy. I have my day of life admin and then I have my day to do whatever I want. Yeah. So like all of the stuff that like the relaxation, the laundry, I guess that's life admin.

But you know what I mean? Like the stuff that's like you have to do. Like maintenance kind of stuff. Look after your plants. Look after my plants. Oh, I love it.

hours of my life going to my flat. But it's fulfilling. It is. And it's something I care about. And I also remember speaking of like you being at your desk being like, I just want to go outside. I remember being terrified when you told me when you were working at your old job in that building. You would say to me like, oh, it was bucketing down rain today, but I made a promise to myself to always eat my lunch outside. So I went and sat outside. Yeah, and I was just sitting in the rain. Yeah, and I was like, oh my God. Yeah.

Sounds fucking terrible. Yeah. And I mean, the other thing I do because I really don't enjoy sitting inside all day is I eat lunch outside. I try to do that as often as I can. And I cycle to and from work. And I was saying recently to my housemate, shout out to Naira if you're listening.

That my favorite part of work now is not work because work would never be my favorite part of my day, but actually cycling to and from work and doing exercise because that's how I've built in looking after myself when eight hours of the day, which in winter...

is all of your daylight hours gone. Literally nothing. We live in Canberra and it's like sunsets at five. Sunsets at five. So if you're working nine to five, you don't get daylight hours. And so that's my motivation to exercise is I cycle to and from work.

because I can, luckily, which is obviously not something that everybody can do, but that really, really helps me and helps maintain my mental health. And I think the really interesting thing, actually, there's probably a direct correlation between 9 to 5 and me actually realising I have to look after my mental health.

Like, I don't know whether you remember that when I started my job, I like suddenly, like my nine to five job, I suddenly got very into like running because I was like, I have to. No, walks was a big thing. I'd be like, what are you doing? Because we used to live around like literally like 100 metres from each other. And they're like, what are you doing? Can I come over? And you'd be like, I'm on a walk. Yeah, just because I needed to breathe fresh air and be outside. Which is a big thing. And I had this realisation today when I was leaving work.

And just quickly, disclaimer, we... I don't know about you. I love my job. Like, I love the people I work with. Okay. I'm very...

Very different. I'm so glad that you feel that way. I love people at my work, but I don't think I share the same sentiment. I go to work to get paid. Yeah. And hopefully one day. Well, me too. Like, I wouldn't go if I was a volunteer. There are people who would go to work if they weren't being paid because that is... They've been brainwashed, that's why. Simple explanation. It was like people... No, don't get it. It's also like people who volunteer, like in old age. I'm like...

I get it, but I'm also like... Really? I don't know. You've lived your whole life and now you're retired. Are you going to go work for free because you can't do anything other than work? I actually really like volunteering, though. But if it's like...

I don't know. Maybe I'm just dissing what I haven't tried yet. Yeah. I think it depends what volunteering you're doing. I find a lot of satisfaction in volunteering because I know that what I'm doing actually contributes. But is it like you're outside? Because you often do like tree planting volunteering or at the food co-op. Yeah, not always though. I did volunteering for a while where I worked in like a Vinnies.

like, an equivalent of Vinny's overseas. And I loved that. That was amazing. And that was a lot because of, like, human connection as well and being able to talk to people. Okay, you actually didn't think that. Yeah, and I volunteer for a group called Sea Change who are a non-for-profit in Canberra. And I do that because, like, I like it. And I think I like the feeling of contributing to being part of a community. That's, like, a big value for me. Yeah. So... Community is another big thing we should talk about. Yeah, definitely. Um...

But yeah, I don't know. And I think that's probably what I do enjoy about work is having like a network of people. Yeah. That's what I was saying about my work. Yeah.

I really love the people I work with. Like the things I do feel somewhat meaningful. I have responsibility. And I think that is really important, by the way, not to interrupt you, but if you are working in a nine to five job and you have the ability to change where you are and you are not feeling fulfilled where you are, just move, find somewhere that does fit. If you have that flexibility. So what Erin's talking about, like I am a notorious job quitter.

Like, if I don't like where I'm working, quit. Quit, quit. As you should. Life is too short. I know. That's what I used to say. If you have the option to, life is way too short to sit in a job. Yeah. And especially, I think, while you're young and you don't have a mortgage. Or kids. You don't have kids. You don't have looming financial responsibilities. Why not? Yeah. And this is the thing about, like, being in your 20s. Like...

a lot of us do have that freedom and it's like why do we submit to something that doesn't work for us and I had that like my friends used to always joke with me like you're a notorious like oh how many jobs are you working now like where are you working now Gemma because I would constantly change but I had this really very strong feeling like right now

World is my oyster. Yeah. So much freedom. Why would I stay in a workplace that I don't feel valued in? Working hours I don't feel valued in. You know, it just isn't worth it. And it's not worth it when you're young and you have so much health and stamina and opportunity and friendships. Yeah. To just sacrifice that. Yeah. And this is like, obviously there are people in positions to not, who can't do that. Yeah. And in which case I think I had an amazing conversation with,

with my psychologist the other day about the concept that if you do have to be where you are and like that's something that's important to you because you need to grow your income or for whatever reason you know you maybe you do have financial responsibilities yeah yeah and and in some ways as well there are people who work to support what they love in other aspects of their life so they'll work to be able to do other things that they really like and i think that's

You know, that's obviously a value as well if you do have that kind of balance. But my psychologist, I'm not going to name her, but shout out to you. Shout out to you. Tell her to listen to this. I will. I will tell her. I think she'd like it. Get her to recommend it to all her patients so we can get some more listeners. Many people in Canberra are public servants. I would say...

The majority of our friends, I would say almost all of our friends, work in jobs that either serve the public service or are the public service. So even if they are not working in a department or a branch or a group, that's what my job is, primarily serving the public service. So it gets ingrained in you. And there's a lot of... Actually, there are benefits. There's a lot of flexibility in the public service and I'm able to go down to four days a week.

weak at the moment because of the flexibility with that but anyway um so she was talking about this concept of happiness if you are not somebody who loves to work and work is your life happiness is not just going to strike you at work like a lightning bolt from above and you're not just going to sit there and become super deliriously happy yeah it's not going to happen and for all my life i think because of the conversations that everybody has around careers and work and

What you're going to be and finding fulfillment through what you do. I always thought that if I found a job that fit totally right, I would just experience insurmountable happiness. Like a dream job. Like a dream. Oh my goodness. The concept of a dream job. Abolish it. Abolish it. Concept of a dream job. Hate it. Because she literally said, even if you work in something that you're completely fulfilled in, it is...

scientifically impossible to be happy yeah eight hours of that day yeah true you can't yeah or to be stimulated or to be stimulated or not bored or not bored constantly and even if you are stimulated you're probably stressed yeah you can't keep your attention for eight hours of a day it's literally scientifically impossible unless you're on drugs yeah even then you still need to go to the bathroom maybe not i don't know what you're taking but

And for me, that just, I found it such a concept. And she said, you've got to create moments of happiness in your day at work. So for me, I like cycle to and from work. That's a huge bit of my happiness. I have lunch with my friend. Shout out, Lindsay. Love you. Friend of the show. Friend of the show. Um,

I have lunch with her almost every day. I love it. Half an hour to just chat shit. Yeah. About the world. Yeah. Not the public service though. We never chat shit about the public service. Never. Totally numb. We would never talk about work on our lunch break. No. Abolish work. Yeah. Actually, you shouldn't talk about work on your lunch break. You shouldn't. Yeah. Sorry, just to interject. No. We had this moment. No. It's like we were having dinner just like hanging out and we got into like work chats.

And I like came and we haven't seen each other for like a week. And I was sitting on the couch and I got into work chat. And I really had a moment where I was like, I always promised myself. Did you ever do this when you were a kid? You're like, I'm not going to work a nine to five. Like people who talk about work on their free days, they're so lame. And then there I was. I have never ever pictured myself sitting in front of a computer in an office. And I've been doing that for a year of my life.

And I have many moments during the day where I sit there at my computer and I go, what the heck is going on here? What am I doing? Crazy. What am I doing? But, you know, it's skills gaining. It's the way of the world. It is the way of the world. It's one of those things. And I don't think anybody preps you for it. No. Well, I actually think maybe they do. Like school kind of preps you for it.

Think about like going to school when you're, but that's the thing. I had this thought and not in a good way that it preps you for it, but like a whole life we're conditioned to give up the hours of our day to something that we might not always see a purpose in. Like you go to school from 8.30 to 3.30 and then, you know, you go to work from 9 to 5. I used to fall asleep in school classes. Yeah, I'm sure you would have. You would have been so bored. How can you sit down for that long?

Anyway, so in terms of creating happiness in your workday so you don't feel like that, like me sitting at my desk going, what the fuck am I doing? Having an existential crisis. Having an existential crisis every single moment. You know, she was like, go get coffee if that's something that you like. Do something that builds connection if that's something you like, you know? And I really, I really appreciate that.

that concept and like going for a little walk in the afternoon walk do it go for a little walk who's stopping you you know and let's talk about that so you that's actually really good skills like really good habits to form because i feel like i don't have that right now like yeah i often skip my lunch break i often don't go outside absolutely not i drive to work and then today i saw the sunset and i like almost cried because i was like wow oh real existence um

But let's talk about making the most of your off time because you do a really good job at that. Do I? Yeah, you do it. Thank you. No, you're so good at it. You always like, you just prioritize your friends. You do things that make you happy. Yeah. Like she works nine to five and she still has time to volunteer. Like, yeah. I've been volunteering for about six years. Like,

Well, it's what you value, right? I don't value work. So I think I do put a lot of time and energy into doing things. Like on almost every day that I work, because I work four days at the moment. Yeah. On...

two of those four days so 50% I have a set activity that I know I will be doing every week and then the other 50% of that time I usually fill with spending time with friends yeah so I go to pole on Tuesday night which I love so that's like my first day back at work absolutely heinous yeah gross but I get to go to pole in the evening and that's something I really like I tried to get her into spin classes but we tried once we tried spin on Wednesday

I cycle. So why would I spin when I cycle? But still loved it. Still loved it. Of course. Yeah. And then on Thursday I played netball and it's like social netball, which is amazing. And I never pictured myself playing netball either, but it's really good because I get to spend time with a whole bunch of people that I really like and they're super lovely.

And then on Friday, I usually do something really fun with my friends. Yeah. Normally we get drunk. Or I go out for drinks. They're actually... That's an interesting topic. People drinking to forget the fact that they have to work five days a week. Because I think that is a...

Big thing to talk about. That's a big trend, especially in Canberra, where a lot of people have disposable incomes and no children. And a job that means that they have both days on the weekend off. Yeah. So it's also a lot of young people. I feel like most of the people who are listening, but it's a lot of people who are under the age of 30, moved here for the APS.

and have just come into heaps of money off and moved out of home. And it is a huge thing. Also, the big thing is if you're young, this is meant to be your time to really figure yourself out. If you're working all the time, when you do have time off, there's this huge compulsion to be like, I need to have fun. I need to be fun. I need to do things, make memories. And often that's like, well, I need to be drunk. Or like, what's the... Well, that's how you socialize, right? In Canberra, there's not much to do.

If you're okay, we're not really outdoorsy people. Like we have a lot of friends who like, you ride your bike, but like we have friends who are like go to the snow. Ultra marathon runners. Run ultra marathons. Kate. Yeah, Tanea, Lucy, they always go skiing. They always cycle, Meg. Yeah, I think there's a lot of people who do the weekend activities that require traveling and then your whole weekend is spent camping. I wish I could be that person. I think we should work on it maybe. Yeah.

Hey, we're going to Braidwood this weekend. We are. We're going to Braidwood for the day. That's making the most of your weekend. But this is the thing. We need, we got off track. Well, actually, quickly. Yeah, please. Sorry. We often get off track in our conversations in case you haven't noticed. That's the thing, right? And if you have three days a weekend, three days on your weekend, you can have a day going on a little trip. Yeah. And your other days, you don't only then have one day to get your whole life together and then go back to work on Monday. Yeah.

You have two days to get your life back together and go back to work. Or you could take a night time. You could go for a night. I mean, you could do that, I guess, if you've only got two days a week. Yeah. Two days a week off. Just basically what we're saying is so much more opportunity just to do more things. Yeah. And like Erin was saying, and like we kind of went off this point a little bit, but I do really want to talk about it because I think you raised a really good point.

When everyone's young, everyone's been forced into these lives that they don't necessarily love. You've kind of cut short your young years. Oh my goodness. Premature. Like I'm 21. I've become like a 50 year old. I'm sitting here on my, on my couch with my cat. Yeah. Am I drinking tea? Drinking tea? Am I 50? No. What, what happened?

But this is the thing. Because you always have that, like, what happened to my 20s? What happened to my young years? Where were they? What did I do? Yeah. I blinked. Yeah, you blinked. And it was gone. And now I sit in an office. Yeah. I know. Now you sit in an office. And I think that is a thing that really, like... Because this is the time to be young and...

Like we're talking about psychology here. Our brains don't really want to be pushed in. We're still developing. So our brains are seeking new stimulation, new memories, new experiences. So you often see like there's nothing to do on the weekend. A lot of people have disposable income.

Go out and get drunk. Go out and drink and forget that, you know... And then forget that you have to go to work in a day. Yeah. For two days. And then, you know, it's awful because then you get really hungover and then your whole Sunday's gone anyhow. So now you only have a one-day weekend. Yeah. It sucks. But, you know, there is actually... There is actually a formula to making your days...

What is it? I've told you about this before, right? No, you have never told me about this. Really? No. Okay. So again, my beautiful psychologist, shout out. She said that when I started having my Mondays off, she said...

okay, that's great. Don't spend all day on the couch resting because whilst rest is great, you need to do something that makes you feel fulfilled. And so she said that you need to do something on that day that brings you joy. Yeah. So something that you really like. So that could be like spending time with friends or cooking. I often like do a little bit of planting, like a new little plant, plant some seedlings, painting, painting, reading, reading, reading.

Something that's practical. So prepping dinner for next week. Laundry. I often try to clean every Monday so the house is nice and clean for the week ahead. You need to do something that's cognitive. So it itches the scratch in your brain. So an easy one is watching a documentary. Scrabble. Scrabble? Crosswords. Crosswords. Scrabble? I guess. Yeah.

I haven't thought of that one. Words. But, or like researching a topic that you're really into or like a new qualification that you want, podcast about something scientific or that's kind of my realm of interest is like science and the climate and stuff like that. Or like doing a bit of reading. You read the... I read heaps. You read so much. But you read really intellectual stuff. I don't think so. I think I just read like really weird novels.

that are like kind of whack. But you were talking about reading that article the other day. Oh yeah. So my friend got like a New Yorker subscription. That's right. And like when he's finished with them, he like gives them to me and I read this really insanely good article about the rise of ovarian cancer in like rural Alabama and like the intersection between that and like Medicaid and how like, yeah,

yeah this is a real detour but it's a really good article that's something that's cognitive right yeah and it was actually was really fulfilling because i read it right before bed and i felt like i'd done something that challenged my brain rather than just pressing a button on an excel spreadsheet um and then you got to do something that's physical so exercise so go for a walk um i love going for a walk up a hill where i live at the moment and if you time it right you can see a

That's like a combination of joy. Combination of joy. All the others. All the others. I forgot about joy. So something that brings you joy, something that is practical. Yeah. Something that's cognitive and something that's physical. There you go. There's the equation. That's the equation. So if you do all of those things in your day, then you'll feel better. You'll feel better. But I don't want to say you'll be happy because happiness is a construct, but it is.

That really helps me. And that makes me feel like I've... Because productivity sometimes, I think, can... There's a very narrow field of what productivity actually is. And I think sometimes there's a big push to be productive. And what does productivity look like? And the rise of the that girl... Oh, yeah. ...trend on Instagram. Which we could talk about for hours, so we won't go into it. We will do it on our other episodes that we're going to do. But...

Um, but that's also tied to like professional success and like having everything put together. And like a big part of that is like having the job or like working towards the job. And I think what we're really talking about here is like, if we took the job out of the equation or the nine to five job, would everything really fall apart or would everyone get a little bit happier? Oh, like universal basic income.

Just look at the studies done with universal basic income and how those that want to work, work. People who find joy in working, work. And people who don't get to pursue what they actually love. And I feel like everyone falls into place of doing things that they would enjoy. They'd be good at, they'd be specialised at. You would have more productivity and efficiency, I think, because you wouldn't have a bunch of people who feel compelled to work but not motivated to work.

which is a huge thing I'm sure you've seen. Like so many people were like, oh, I've got to go to work. And when they get to work, do you really think they're going to be there? Like, yeah, I'm at work. Like, let me put in everything I've got. Let me really commit to this. No, they're not going to flip and do that. Especially when you're in your twenties or in your thirties or when you're young and you have so much other shit that you want to do. And I just think like, yeah, I just don't think that it necessarily works. And I think with what you were saying about that equation, um,

You've got these four things you need to prioritize. Do you find it easier to do it on days when you're not working or days when you are? Oh, I don't think about it on days I work because I simply do not have time. There we go. Because by the time I have woken up, got myself to work, been at work, come home, I've got, what, three or four hours left in the day. Yeah. And most of that is spent...

Eating dinner or having to cook dinner. So you're home by five. You want to be in bed by ten Yeah, yeah, you want to be in bed by ten so you don't feel like absolute crap the next morning You've got a shower. You've got to tidy up do whatever you need to do in your house. Yeah, and

Take care of yourself. Take care of yourself. Eat. So at the end of the day, often as somebody who is a little bit introverted, I often just sit and watch television because I'm like, I do not have the mental capacity to do anything else that is slightly challenging. Yeah. Or, you know, you go and do something that is good. Like you go to netball, there's your physical thing and there's your joy thing. Not really practical, but...

yeah like physical and joyful there's two things that are really nice somewhat cognitive but it's also like but then you have less time to take care of yourself completely so it's this whole thing if it's like when eight hours of your day are gone and the first three hours two hours are spent just fucking getting ready and going to work well i lie in bed for an hour because i literally don't want to go to work

Oh, terrible. I always set my alarm at 10 past seven, but I get up at 7.40. Yeah. Because I like to wake up and then be like, oh, I get a snooze a little bit. Because if I wake up at 7.40, I'm going to be like... It's just not going to go well. Yeah. And I've really been cutting it thinner and thinner. Like today I woke up at 7.50 and I was like, shit. Yeah. I've got 40 minutes to get out the door. Like...

I've actually, I managed to perfect it down to 15 minutes getting out of the door at one stage when I just was so sad about going to work. I couldn't get out of bed, which is not a, that's not a good space to be in. And I'm not there anymore. When I first started working my nine to five job and there have been occasions as well that I have literally had to, like I've not been able to get out of bed in the morning and I've slept in and then I've woken up at 11 and I've had to call work and have a chat to them and be like, Hey, this is going on.

My mental health is not great at the moment. And luckily, they've been really understanding. How much of that do you think was tied to work? Or do you think it was just lack of balance or other things? No, I think it really was tied to work. And it was tied to the fact that I had no time for myself. And I was just so exhausted. And my mind was just not able to cope at all. And I think as well, like, if you...

have a mental illness like I find it really important to have time to prioritize just looking after myself because sometimes looking after yourself is quite difficult yeah and sometimes it does like take time to do things that other people could do quite quickly yeah you know

so part of that is like if I have more time on the weekend it is easier to do stuff like that yeah no that's a really big thing and I'm glad that you kind of um recognised that and kind of took control and were like yeah this needs to change but it's you know and you were really lucky that you they were somewhat yeah no I was really lucky flexible around that somewhat flexible yeah um but do you think if you weren't working your nine to five what do you think you would be doing or is that too much of a scary question no um

Sorry, I'm taking a moment to think. I had a concept at one stage of really wanting to be able to do woofing, which is like working on an organic farm. What's it called? Woofing. W-O-O-F? F? Maybe just one F. And so basically you work on an organic farm for free in exchange for like shelter and food. Wow. This is a real socialist episode. Yeah.

Universal basic income. Free accommodation. Well, because I was... I think I really enjoy doing things...

they're super practical and whilst i did not grow up in a farm in by any shape or form i love plants which you know yes she does my i own a lot of house plants i'm staring at them all right now it's about 15 they are very hard to miss they are in your face well there's 15 on that one table alone i know and then you just look around and there's even more but um

Yeah, I just love the concept of maybe living in a commune. Yeah. Oh, gosh. That's a terrible thing to say. No, it's not. It's not at all. But why... I feel like it's very... No.

no basic no it's not but if it's basic we have to also examine like why do so many people want to do like how many people listening have those fantasies of dropping everything and going and living in a van or traveling the world or moving to a new country or like living in a commune i think it's super stigmatized because it's the absolute other end of the spectrum from what like capitalist society expects of you yeah

And sometimes it's like you're trying to be like unique. Like, Oh, look at you go. It's like, actually maybe you're just doing the thing that's right for you. And you just are scared that you can't do it. Well, who, who is meant to be living in an office? No one. Not living. Sorry. Well, practically. Yeah. If you consider your spending, how much? 35% of your waking hours at work, but that does not include, you know, the time spent getting ready for work, the commute. Like I,

I've got like an hour commute every day. Oh my goodness. Like I have to leave 30 minutes earlier and then it takes me 30 minutes to get home. It's another hour. Then you have to fucking get ready for work. Then you have to depress from work. Then you have to have a shower. And then, you know, if you want to go to the gym, like there's just all these things that become so much more limited. Whereas if you worked in a commune, you really have a lot more time just to actually exist and know yourself. And I think that's so important. And what working in an office does not do is,

is allow you space or time to be an individual be an individual because that's the last thing that capitalism would want yeah can you imagine oh the world would fall apart yeah if people actually realize that and again if this is your goal in life i'm not dissing it but moving up in a workplace what is it like what is it going to serve you what are you going to get from that yeah apart from like a weird narcissistic sense of power and money and money obviously and

Yeah. I thought this as well. Cause I think when I was in high school, I was really like, all I want to do is make heaps of money and be super successful and everyone admire me. But why did you want to do that? Because I didn't have anything else that I thought would bring me meaning.

So when I, that's the thing, because I was like, this is what I've been taught will bring me meaning. This is what I imagine. People admire people who are rich, people admire people who are successful. And I'm so dependent on people admiring me. And then I got to uni and about my second, third year, I was like really restructured that whole ideal. And I was, I just had this moment where I was just like, that is actually not going to work for me. It's not going to work for me because I,

And I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I do work a nine to five now. Don't I? But is your one life goal to become the CEO? Hell no. Exactly. Hell no. You're not a hypocrite. You just exist within a capitalist society. But also I'm working because I know that I need money to go off and do the things that I want to do. And I think I've also been able to do other stuff alongside it. Like I do this podcast, like have heaps of time for other things in my life.

But yeah, I think that that was a huge thing that I had on my mind. Like this is what I need for my life. Like this is what I want. And then I had to completely rethink it. And I used to always be like, oh, I can't imagine people who like, oh, you're just going to be a bum all day. I was very conservative. I'm not now. I've obviously done a full 180. But I really think it's like restructuring your priorities. And I think a lot of people hit that point where they have that conundrum

And why do you think people have a midlife crisis? Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. Like, because quarter life crisis is a quarter life crisis because you realize that like what you're doing, what's it actually? And I think actually quickly, um, COVID has had a huge, huge, like generated a huge societal shift into wow. Okay. Life's actually quite short. Yeah. Yeah.

Life is really uncertain. We don't know what's going on. So you better do something that you actually enjoy. Yeah, and family. Spend time with family. Spend time with family. And I actually think that as well. And also just like how many workplaces, you know, how much we realize that actually you could take time off. Like you could work from home. Quickly. You could be flexible. Half pay. Yeah.

Leave with half pay? What was that? I don't know whether that's available to you, but it's a bit of a thing in the APS. If you take leave, take leave with half pay if you can afford it, because basically for that day of leave or days of leave, you will get half your pay, but that means you get twice as much leave.

Oh, if you can afford it. Fuck yeah. If you can afford it. Concept. I didn't know that was something people could do until like eight months into working in this job. I want to do that. I don't get leave. You don't get leave. Are you a... You're a contractor? Well, yeah. I just get... I'm not on a permanent contract. Yeah. So I'm technically casual, but I work...

Well, but I don't know, but I, on a semi-permanent basis working nine to five. Oh my goodness. But I think it's just because I started out there as someone who was like, just there as like a support person, like as a researcher. And then I got like promoted, not promoted, but they needed me. That's how they get you. No, I love my workplace, but like, it's not the workplace that I don't like. It's the concept of the work life. Yes. That's a really big thing to distinguish. Well,

I truly, and I have had a serious existential breakdown about this before now in front of my mum and my brother, where I literally lay on the kitchen floor and I cried because I was like, why can I not simply receive money for existing? Yeah. Why do I need money? Why do I need money? And why do I have to work to a giddiest? And I can, like, I can hear the economic bros shouting at me as I say this. Shut up, Brad. That's your name. Oh, gosh.

Oh, something lame like that. Oh, but why? Like, why? Yeah. Why do humans like we've created obviously this system? Yeah. But why? Why? Like, why don't we choose another one about me existing actually requires dollar dollar bills? Yeah.

Nothing. Right? Nothing. It obviously facilitates things like healthcare and somewhere to live. But then again, why does that require dollar dollar bills? Why does that require dollar dollar bills? Yeah, we've got to go back to that. It wouldn't. Well, once upon a time it wouldn't have. I mean, bartering. But you also would have died at 35. But I also would have died. Oh, I would have died very early on. I got sick as a very young child. I would have been killed off early. Oh, okay.

We do not condone infanticide on this podcast. No, no, no, no. I'm sorry. No, I'm kidding. I'm teasing you. No, but you're right. Like, why does everything require money? And that's what I think we were really getting at. What's the pressure? The pressure is money. Yeah. The pressure is two things, actually. Like, kind of what I was saying, the pressure to be conforming and to be doing what you think is going to give you meaning. And work is what has given so many generations of people meaning because that was really a necessity. Yeah.

And also money. And money allows you to do other things. But it's like another equation where it's like, at what point do you not even have the time to spend the money that you are earning because you wanted to spend money on things that you like? And at what point are you just accumulating wealth? And for who? Yeah, where's that going to go when you're dead? Where's that going to go when you're dead? And if we throw into this the good old little climate crisis lurking in the background, if we only have like however much amount of time that we have left...

which are probably not a lot, before things really... Hit the fan. Hit the fan. Am I going to spend 20 of the best years that we have left on this planet as human beings before we go extinct sitting in an office staring at a computer screen? It's like an episode of Black Mirror. It is! We are living in an episode of Black Mirror. We really are. But, I mean, seriously, I'm like...

So, I mean, if this is a motivation to anybody, quit your job. Are you going to quit your job?

Look, I need to figure out what I want to do that is not working nine to five. And then I will be seriously considering. And also you're kind of locked in right now. And I'm locked in. The job that I'm in right now requires a certain period of time. Yeah. To do things in. So... To do things in. It's like a set contract, we'll say. Yeah. So it's kind of like... But if you have the opportunity... Also...

If there's younger people who are like... Because I remember last year, I had this whole thing where I was like, I just want to get a normal job. I just want to work nine to five. And I thought that was going to make me happier. I was like, I just want to do it like that. No, no, no, no, no. Spend as much time as you can...

Yeah. On A, Centrelink. Yeah. If you have that option. Or B, just like doing other things, working jobs that are, you know, might be different hours, but like are a lot more suitable for your lifestyle. Having a nine to five job fitting into that lifestyle doesn't actually bring meaning. It doesn't make you a more mature person. You don't need to rush to grow up and fit into that. Yeah. Because you just give away so much of your freedom. And even though you might've been told your whole life that that's something to aspire to and work towards. Yeah.

Sometimes... It's just not. It's just not. And, you know, the grass is always greener on the other side, but... Yeah, exactly. That's what... Obviously. But if you seriously, like, seriously consider...

What is it that brings you meaning and value? And joy. And joy? Yeah. For probably 80% of people, it is not working in an office. No. It's not for me. No, it's not for you. Oh, it isn't. There we go. That's 100% out of our sample of two. So, obviously... Lessons learned.

Peer-reviewed research. Yeah, literally peer-reviewed because we are peers. We need to say goodbye because we have recorded 45 minutes of this. But we hope, well, I hope especially that this was kind of an informative look into what it's like transitioning into 9 to 5 work when you're in your 20s, the psychological shifts and changes that you undergo, and yeah, what it means for your health, what it means for your sanity and your sense of self.

And why it's probably not all it's cracked up to be. And yeah, I think it was just a good discussion of the pressures that you face to fit into that mold. Yeah. Even if it's against your own wellbeing. Yeah. So thanks, Erin. Thanks for having me. No worries. You know, I love a good chat about work. Yeah. No more work chat. No more work chat. No more work chat. Can we ban them? I think we should. I think we definitely should. Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed this episode. We'll have a new episode next week.

It's the psychology of the breakup. And yeah, spicy, spicy. Juicy episode. Oh yeah. It's juicy indeed. Erin's giving me a knowing look, but thanks for tuning in. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and subscribe on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much.

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