Amorim for Ten Hag & Who Deserved The Ballon d’Or? | Fan Debate
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Why would he take the United job? Look, our whole back four was completely reshuffled. You know, we had Thomas Partey playing that right back. Stop getting sent off there. It's hard because I'm selling morning for ten hogs. I'm going to miss him greatly. What a man. What's he got to deal with you digging him out on his own? United's big problem is goals. They've not got enough goals in the team. He might win the Dita Cup. In Cole Palmer, I genuinely believe that we have the best footballer in the world at the moment.

I just feel like that Grand Theft Auto meme, you know, that, oh, s***, here we go again. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. I'm joined by Scolzi again and all the fans from around the country. So we've got lots to get into. Paul, what's the best place to start? I mean, you were in confidence at the start of the season about where Manchester United were heading, even with the new signings and keeping Eric Ten Hag on. What are you feeling now?

Yeah, I felt it was the right decision. I felt any time over probably the last six or 12 months he probably could have done it. Look, I know he'll go back to winning two trophies in the League Cup and the FA Cup, but the league is where this club should be judged really. What are they, 14th? I don't care who's managing. If Manchester United are 14th in the league after nine games, they're getting sacked. And I just felt there was just too many lows over his period of time. You think of the Liverpool game, a 7-0.

Obviously, a devastating City a couple of times, some bad defeats. Then this season again, you're thinking, right, will it change? I think Adam was pretty sure it was going to change. It didn't quite work out as he thought. And then there was two again, really damning results. I think the Liverpool game at home was disappointing. And then the Tottenham one was probably the last straw. But I go back to last season, I think of that Crystal Palace game when they lost 4-0.

I thought that was the end. You don't like asking for managers to be sacked. You don't like seeing them sacked. You want them to work. I think they gave them enough chance, but after seeing that Palace game, I just thought, that's the end. They have to move on. Do you think they should have changed them then, before the cup final? I thought they should have done, yeah. I thought, I'd never seen such an abject performance from Manchester United. I thought it was one of the worst performances I'd seen since I can remember. I thought it was that bad.

Now, looking back, it's probably the right thing to keep him on because they went on to win that. Amazing how they won that. I don't know what they did. Now, to carry on as they did, I think it was well documented they were speaking to managers during the summer. They had his so-called review during the summer and decided to give him another year's contract, which looking back now is a big mistake. You think of the money they've wasted in that time with the players he's brought in and get to this point now where...

They're in a bit of a mess in the league, a bit of a mess in Europe as well. They've three draws out of three games in the Europa League. So it was time for change of thinking. Let's hope they can get the right man. Well, as well as the fans, we've got Laurie Whitwell from the Athletic, the Manchester United correspondent.

Laurie, can you give us a timeline about sort of maybe when they were really thinking about making this decision or was it just on the back of what happened at the weekend? No, I think they've been considering this for a little bit of time. Obviously, the way results have been, as Paul's reflected on, you know, last season even, they were thinking about it right back then. After the Crystal Palace game, there was actually a decision really made to change manager and that's why they went and

looked around and the FA Cup final totally changed the dynamic and then they tried to back Eric Ten Hag in the summer but I think in this season in particular that Tottenham game probably I think made them think okay maybe this isn't going to work after all they spoke Omar Barada and Dan Ashworth spoke before the Liverpool game that they went on to lose 3-0 fully backing him but I sense that in the sort of days and weeks after that there was maybe a little bit of uncertainty over how to proceed with him and I think that's

And then I guess there was that Exco meeting, the executive committee meeting that happened in London at the INEOS headquarters earlier at the start of October. And I think they were discussing what to do as a contingency if results didn't improve. And then as we've seen, I think they're moving quite quickly for a replacement. And that usually indicates that work has been done behind the scenes beforehand. You've obviously got good contacts at the club at the top, you know, the top brass there. I mean...

Is there a feeling that they've made a mistake in terms of holding on to Eric Ten Hag a few months into the season and spending, what, £150-200 million in the transfer market? I think they'll have to reflect on that, won't they? Because ultimately it's not worked out. I think they tried to make the best of a difficult situation because they had...

Dan Ashworth wasn't officially in the building at that point. Omar Barada wasn't until July. You had Jason Wilcox only just in as technical director in the April. But, Laurie, do you seriously think we all believe that those people were not in discussions with Jim Ratcliffe and David Brailsford at that time? When we're saying they're not in the building, I know you're probably trying to give them a little get-out there, and I understand that. But, I mean, when we say they're not in the building, they're obviously...

contact Andy speaking about the situation at Manchester United yeah they'll have been in the loop for sure but I think it's a different thing than being able to officially go to people and say right I am the sporting director of Manchester United let's have an open discussion about this and what can we do you know if we want to appoint you so I think it made it a little bit awkward that

that period and ultimately they thought Tanag has shown in the FA Cup final that he can get a performance out of these players against a very good man City side the fan sentiment at that point was overwhelmingly in favour of him so it would have been quite a strong decision I mean in reflection maybe they should have made it and stuck to their guns after the Crystal Palace game but

I feel like there was such a swell of emotion around Eric Ten Hag staying on. And he'd won two trophies, you know, the first trophies in six years for United. There was this sense, OK, maybe with the right structure around him, better recruitment, he can actually, and different coaching staff, he can actually thrive. Ultimately, they'll have to reflect on that and whether that was the right call because making a change after nine games of a Premier League season is not what they wanted to do. Do you think Ruben Amarin is the right call? Is that the man they're going to get?

I believe there's hope around that. They're obviously in talks at the moment to secure him from Sporting Lisbon. There's a release clause involved there. I feel like he's probably the one out there that will excite the fans and has...

a good record already in Europe as well it's a little bit mixed but he's playing in the Champions League he's got progress there he's won two titles so he's not coming to Manchester United in the hope of maybe becoming a winner he's already done that in Portugal and again you know team of Benfica and Porto decent I know it's not the same as the Premier League but you've got some competitive edge there and

And he's a young manager. There's an idea that they can build with him. You know, that's the hope if they get it all completed. So I think that's what probably appeals most. It's more of an exciting appointment than, you know, the other people that were being discussed. I don't know if there was that same level of hope that they would build at United for the long term.

Adam, what part right now about Manchester United, obviously Ineos have come in, what do you feel about how well they've done since they've come in in the last 12 months or so? I do give them a little bit of slack because they've just got there and they've kind of got to right the ship from all the wrongs that the Glazers have been doing over the years. So I do kind of want to give them a little bit of time, but I think this is the real first big decision they have to make and they will be judged soon.

I think harshly on this decision, maybe because Manchester United fans have got to a point now after 10, 11 years where everything that we've seen isn't working. Now, obviously, they're not to blame for a lot of those things, but it's still there. So I think, you know, patience with the fans is probably wearing a little bit thin. We'll want to see them act and make the right decision. Ruben Amrim, I don't know. I just feel like that Grand Theft Auto meme, you know, that, oh, here we go again.

I just feel like that every single time, like with United, where I feel a little bit gutted that we sacked the manager. It was the right decision. He had to be sacked. I agree with Scolzi, the 7-0, the 4-0 against Palace weren't great. But at that time, you kind of go, got a lot of injuries. When we do have those players back, we put in a performance like we did against City. And then this season, I think my head went after the Spurs game because we were so early into the season.

And Spurs, sorry Flav, whilst it's kind of like a big game, it's a game where you expect to beat Spurs no matter what the scenario is, no matter what the situation is. If they rock up to Old Trafford, it's a big enough game for the players to want to be up for it and we should be beating them. And the performance was just abysmal. And then you look at some of the things Ten Hag said yesterday.

After that, he kind of went, I'm not counting the Spurs game because the Bruno sending off got reversed. And he got, hold on a minute, we were crap before he got sent off. So how does that red card have any impact? And then talking about injuries when most of the players are back, it just, it looked like a manager that knew his time was up. He's probably a little bit relieved to lose the job as well, get a nice payoff.

But it is just sad to go constantly in this cycle. I am an eternal optimist, and I'm sure after Ruud wins a few games, I'll be back on the 21 is coming train. But

I just hope that Ruben Amorim, as much as a tactician he may be or, you know, is 3-4-3 or whatever, I hope he's good at all that stuff. But I think the big thing is having the personality and the character because Ten Hag is a good coach. No matter what we think of him, he's a good coach. Van Aar was a good coach. Mourinho, a good coach. We had a lot of good coaches.

But you feel like the personality hasn't been the right one. And I think managers' jobs are almost like politicians these days at times, managing their players, managing the fans. And we really need a connection with the fan base. You look at how Klopp was with Liverpool. I know not every manager is that good. Old Trafford, the last couple of months, even last season, has been flat.

It's hard to get up for games because you know... But do you think Amarim can fix that? I don't know too much about him. Who would you like as the Manchester United manager? It's a short list. It's a very short list. I definitely didn't want Gareth Southgate anywhere near it. Nagelsmann was like an ideal choice, but even then he's got the Germany job. Like, is he going to give that up? Amarim's probably the one where you go, he's an up-and-coming manager, he's got potential. But so was Ten Hag. Three years ago, we looked at Ten Hag like that and went, he's the guy. So I just kind of feel like...

Can't be arsed anymore. I'm not sure. Are you supremely confident Ineos are going to make the right decision? Because you said it's like the first decision they've had to make. First big one, yeah. No, but it ain't because they decided to keep Ten Hag in the summer. They could have replaced him. I agree with what Laurie said, though, that without those people in position... They could have got Amarone in the summer if they wanted him. They could have. They're Man United. But they could have got Tuchel then if they wanted, couldn't they? Tuchel hasn't been in work for ages. I think Amarone's a great appointment, but I think...

I wouldn't be supremely confident that Ineos are the right people to run. I think Tuchel was the right one. Obviously, it's gotten obviously with England, but I think you're looking at someone who can manage an elite football club and win big games. He's been there, proven, and done it. And I agree a little bit in the Amarant thing. It's a little bit like Ten Hag. He's coming from a league...

Portuguese league I'd say it's a little bit better than the Dutch league he's got to play against two big teams in Porto Benfica absolute giants and what he's done there has been good he's young he looks charismatic as well he looks like he's got a little bit about him well yeah but I also think I think he looks like they're going to do it in the next couple of days or it might have been the last couple of hours but

but Sporting they play I think they play City next week they play Arsenal in three or four weeks it might have been like a little chance to give them almost like a public interview if you know what I mean you can see how he handles the media see how his team plays and we can I don't think

Being in England, we don't see a lot of Portuguese football, do we? So we don't really know that much. Obviously, we'll see a little bit of European football. All the things we hear about, it's good, it's exciting football. Possession base, three at the back, something that United don't really do. But if he comes in to do that, then it could be exciting. Gareth, I wanted to bring you in because...

From the Liverpool side of things, and certainly going back to when I was a player, and we would be in the situation United are in right now, not permanently changing manager, but the next manager is going to take on United and Ferguson, if you like. And I always feel a little bit with Man United right now is no matter who you bring in, they're not Pep.

Do you know what I mean? So this guy's going to be the answer to that guy. Does that feel about when we were fortunate that we had Klopp and obviously City had Pep, we had someone who you'd look at right up that. Do you feel sort of Manchester United in the similar situation we were in sort of the 90s and the 2000s? Yeah, very much so. I mean, I always go back to that quote, I think it was Ryan Giggs saying, we're never going to do what Liverpool did and go 30 years without a title. Well, what are we up to now? It's going to be 12, isn't it? No matter what question I'd ask, he's going to say that. LAUGHTER

This feels like, to me, another manager that could be chewed up and spat out. You know, I've grown up in the Ferguson era and he was a man that demanded respect. Journalists wouldn't ask him the wrong question or they'd get banned. He banned the BBC, didn't he? You know, and he just had that aura about him. And this fella comes in where we're like, well...

has he got that and i'm not sure he has and you know liverpool chair managers man united have been chairing the managers and i just think it's one of those jobs where you need to be a special person to be able to handle the pressure you know every word what clothes you wear what you look like everything is analyzed to the nth degree when you're the manager of manchester united and that makes it an almost an impossible job and we've seen tena get chewed up and spat out

I'd worry if I was a Man United fan that this was another one that could happen to. I mean, what do the other fans think when you look at Manchester United, especially Villa Dave, Unai Emery? I mean, is there any feeling or worry that, you know, why would Manchester United not try and entice him? Yeah, I heard Paul say that Emery would walk there. I think he'd run away from there, to be honest. Yeah.

Had a good year, have you? No, but it's true because everything that Emery's got at Villa, he's got complete control. He's just coaching the team really well. He's doing fantastic. And I just think Villa are in such a good place. Champions League. We're talking about managers here of longevity. And I think...

Emery at Villa if he stays at Villa for long enough he's going to be winning trophies we can try and challenge and keep getting better and better each season so I think Emery he won't go there because he wouldn't have the control that he got at Villa and you know I look at sort of like managers at the minute everyone's now a coach Emery's the manager of Aston Villa and I think

That's completely different to what he would probably get offered elsewhere. Stephen, I want to bring you in. Manchester City, I'm just...

Thinking in the last sort of two weeks, I've seen Amarin being sort of linked with Man City because Hugo Viana has come in as I think as your new sporting director, maybe to replace Begiristan. Is that right? Have I got that right? So I was thinking if Pep does move on, which is that's the talk for next season. Is there anything in the back of your mind that Manchester United could be getting the manager that was supposed to?

take over Manchester City it's hard because I'm still in mourning for Ten Hag I'm going to miss him greatly what a man but yeah he was the guy apparently he beat you in a cup final that's like look where I led you mate look where I led you I ran off the park by McTominay by the way that was

I played 4D chess there, mate, and it took a lot longer to get rid of him, so I was fine with it, trust me. But yeah, the thing is, he was apparently meant to be the guy that Guardiola was going to step away for eventually, because Vianna's... Sporting directors like their man, don't they? And apparently Vianna loves Amorim, because obviously he made the most out of his signings. It's interesting, because I probably feel that Amorim...

probably expected the City job afterwards, not expected, but probably felt, you know, it's probably in the bag here if Pep moves on because I've got those connections and all that kind of stuff. I've worked with the guy, but there's still so much noise around Pep's future and I don't think anyone genuinely knows the City if he's staying or not yet. So you've got your Amarim now. Look, I know it's not quite City, but it's just across town, you know, and it's a good job for him. So I don't blame him for taking it. It's a phenomenal job, you know. Go on. Didn't Amarim...

come to London to force an interview with West Ham to force Liverpool's to have... He apologised. What is he up to? And he apologised? Yeah. That's your manager. He didn't want him to have a back three as well, which is... That is the one thing, sort of, tactically. I mean, you think of some of the big teams now in Europe, you buy a Leverkusen with Alonso, Inter Milan as well with Inzaghi, Amarant at Sporting. So there is a few teams playing, but we don't sort of associate that, do we, with sort of teams...

But that was something back in Man United, because you think, how does that affect the tradition of playing with wingers? I mean, is that something that put you off the actual system? Yeah, slightly. I think so, yeah. It's not a system that we've been used to. You go to the old-fashioned three at the back with a five in midfield...

We tried it a few times and I reckon it lasted 10, 12 minutes at the most before it got f***ed up. It's not working. And we always went back to the back four, something we knew. But we're in a position now where you can't look back now and think we're a 4-4-2 team or a 4-4-1-1 team. We've got to bow to whatever this new coach wants. And look, whatever he's done at Sporting Leeds has been brilliant. Now look, the level again,

be a lot more expensive and Manchester United have cost it well I just wonder if City really wanted him why would he take the United job? That's what I was going to say yeah Do you know what I mean? Especially a young coach this could be it might be the only time to manage a big club and we see if you fail at Man United I think

I think other managers struggle a little bit to find better jobs. Where does Ten Hag go from here? It felt like Mourinho's last big job, really, didn't it? I know he's still gone to Roma and these type of clubs, but not clubs that can go on. Not clubs that can win Champions Leagues or leagues. Exactly. No, but seriously, Fenerbahce again, it's where do you go? What do you do in Van Gaal? Do you go to Holland?

Maybe. It feels like the... The thing with Adeline's struggle that I get worried about is already you're seeing some of the tweets from your lot, all the journals popping up, with like, he won't change from the back three. I get it. He won't change from the back three and stuff. And it's like, why are you going to bring a manager in and then kind of create this pressure for him to change from what's worked for him? Yeah.

And like with Eric Ten Hag he kind of He's got to have the players as well though hasn't he? I do think we've got three centre backs Like we signed Jaro and De Ligt and we are kind of overloaded in centre backs We've got no left back so it kind of works that we play without a left back Who would he play wing backs in? Deleuze or Masraoui maybe?

I think he wants to be more attacking. It's a front three, isn't it? So you think you put three in there? Well, it's tens, isn't it? Bruno's an interesting one because if you play without a ten, unless you... He plays with two tens, doesn't he? Apparently. Yeah.

Two sixes, two tens. I hate saying numbers. To all the midfield players, two number tens. Two number tens is not bad. So Bruno would fit into that, wouldn't he? Maybe. As one of the tens. It's kind of like, you'd expect Rashford to be one of them. His big problem is goals. He's not got enough goals in the team. Oh, did you see Sunday? Yeah, chances are. But they don't score, do they? You'd go for Giocares, wouldn't you? I reckon.

We've already bought two lumps. See, that's the problem. They could be scarred by the country with Ten Hag. You think of all the players Ten Hag brought from Ajax. Again, you think if this lad comes from Sporting Lisbon and all of a sudden wants three or four of them players in there, they're not good enough. That would be a concern, wouldn't it? Because I think some players haven't quite made it.

I've been over to Sporting Lisbon and done alright. I think there's a young lad from Tottenham actually who I saw at 18 months old. The centre-right from Liverpool. When you thought when he was in Quartus, he was in. You thought, he's not good enough, is he? He's got a great goal at QPR one time. And he goes over there and looks like a really good player. So,

I think there'll be scars there thinking what can we let this lad do or is that where Dan Ashworth takes over and Jason Wilkins? I think it's really interesting with Amarant because so many managers have had the Manchester United job some of the greatest managers we've seen Louis van Gaal probably alongside Capello the manager of the 90s if you like Mourinho 10 years later and they just haven't quite happened so it's not just about ability isn't it in terms of how good they are so I think if he's

He will be in contact with his sporting director if he's going to go to Manchester City, wouldn't he? They're obviously probably really good pals. I think that will be a really interesting conversation about whether he...

maybe the Manchester City ones there he won't know for certain do you take the chance of waiting and you miss out on Manchester United so I think he's got a big decision to make it's a big risk for him isn't it really big risk but do you put any stock in the fact that a manager head coach might see the chance at Manchester United the challenge at Manchester United as more appealing to create your own legacy than going off the back of Pep Guardiola who's won everything

maybe I'm being naive in that and thinking that's a good question but the job would be a lot easier you see how Arne Slott's going to Liverpool and that squad to me as we say it felt ready it felt like a squad that could challenge him I think it was a little bit easier for him to go into that

What he'll be coming to is... I don't think our squad's that bad, you know. I know we're missing a few. I genuinely don't. That's why I was a bit frustrated. He never says this every year on this call. It's not as bad as 14, but it's bad, isn't it? Yeah. And plus, I don't think... Where's the very best the squad could finish, in your opinion? If they had the season of their lives now, where could they finish? Fourth at best, but even then, you're looking at the teams above us already. It's probably gone.

There's too many in between us last season. I think at the very best, he could finish fourth. Very hard to see that happening at this point. You'd probably say sixth. Yeah.

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From losers to winners and we've got Lee at the top here. He has won the Super Six £1 million. Oh, jeez. You lent me a fiver, brother. When that final whistle blew at the Emirates on Sunday night, you were...

We're no longer a postman. He's through his hand in at the job. He's won a million pounds. Can you just explain to people here about how you went about keeping up to date with the scores and how you went about picking them? I absolutely didn't. An hour after the game had ended, I was having phone calls, texts, it's you, it's you. And I was just using my first name. I was going, no, it wasn't me. I'd gone on and looked, but I looked on the week before. I'd only had two wins.

So that's definitely not me. And then I was having phone calls off sky saying, well, I was blocking them because I thought that they was coming up as unknowns. I was blocking, blocking, blocking. And then my daughter come up on Instagram and said, she said, you've won it. Your full name is you. Twitter, sorry. Come up, you've won it. And I said, oh no. So all of a sudden I had to get the block off, which we was panicking to get it off. And I

And as soon as they got it off, he rung straight away and he said he'd won. So he wasn't even watching the game at the end, the Liverpool game. He turned the Liverpool game off. He didn't have a clue. Yeah, I didn't know. And he must be the only man in the country who picked Man City 1-0 to Southampton. What was the thinking there? It was only because Southampton has been, they've been quite poor. And I thought that the manager used to be Swansea City manager and I thought they're going to sack him if they get a 5-0, 6-0. And he must have just said, we've just got to go out and give a performance. And it looks like they did. But they scored in five minutes going in.

I thought, oh my God, you know, I didn't even know. So looking at it after, you think, after they scored five minutes going in, how do they hang on for, you know, just one nil? All those last minute goals, all those last minute goals on a Saturday. Yeah, three. You must have been going mad. Well, I didn't know. What, even on a Saturday? You didn't check the Saturdays either? I didn't know, no. You didn't check any of them? No, nothing. I'm glued to it. He didn't even go into Sunday needing the two games. Sunday, I didn't know either. Is this a good answer for Super 6? I don't know.

I think it's the best way, I've got to be honest. Well, everybody at the overlap and especially here today on the Fandy Bates are absolutely delighted for you, mate. Well done. Right, I want to go to Chanel, debut on the Fandy Bates representing Arsenal. I was ready for a tough grilling from Clive today, so I'm actually glad that you're here. So what are your thoughts on the game from the weekend against Liverpool? Do you see that as a point gain, two points lost?

In my opinion, I feel like we should have really have won that game. I feel like Arsenal went out attacking. Like Arteta said in his press conference prior to the game, we're going to go out there flying. I'm sure a lot of people are probably writing us off the fact that we had Saliba out because of his red card, the fact that we was faced with all the injuries that we did have.

But I was really proud of the team. Happy that Bukayo Saka managed to come back from injury as well as Uri and Timba. And I feel like we really went out there and put a bold statement. We played so well in that first half. And Liverpool got quite lucky in the second half when Gabriel Maglihese came off injured.

Mo Salah, yep, he's a world-class player, but he got lucky scoring that goal. It's because, you know, our back four is not our usual back four that we normally have. And Lewis Skelly, one of our young talents, you know, left that space which allowed Salah to score. So, yeah, it was a good game, exciting game, but really and truly, we should have won that. So we got lucky, Mo Salah, 163rd time. LAUGHTER

Let's be real though, how many chances did he have in that game? You're right, he didn't and Arsenal were far better in the first half. I want to ask you a question as an Arsenal fan because I spoke about Arsenal and not just after this game but I've had this feeling around Arsenal probably for about 12 months now that they're going about it trying to win the league a different way than sort of Man City or Jürgen Klopp's Liverpool.

and it was more Jose Mourinho type, and that's definitely upset Arsenal supporters on my timeline on social media. Do you agree with that? Because if you actually just look at this game in isolation, it was a complete contrast, your performance first half to second half.

It is something that we do sort of struggle with a bit in games, I'll be honest. You know, we go out in the first half, put out an outstanding performance. Sometimes in the second half, we do sort of drop off a bit. But there are factors that need to be taken into consideration as well. You know, the fact that referees, you know, the poor decisions...

that they do make. And I know I can hear you guys laughing, but when you look back at some of these decisions, like... Which ones? It's unfair. All right, let's take in... Let's look at the Liverpool game, for instance. We got done for...

our player kicking away the ball. It happened in the Liverpool game. Nothing was done about that. You know, penalty calls, you know, should that have been... Have you talked about the Liverpool game last season when someone unballed the most blatant unball you've ever seen in your life? No, he was slipping. I mean, he slipped and naturally your hand's going to come out of position when you do slip. But,

But I feel like there has been quite a few instances where the referees have been unfair to us. And that's not just me moaning about referees, because I'm not a fan who normally likes to moan about refs. Also in that Liverpool game as well, you know, the penalty. That was a pen, to be fair. That should have been a penalty that was awarded to us with Martinelli and Canate.

And then the goal that was this allowed as well. That wasn't this allowed though because it was given as a free kick before the ball went in the back of the net. All right, but the referee... And didn't he kick Trent into the goal as well? That goal should never have been given. That's fine if you're an Arsenal fan. All right, listen, as well, the referee... What was that about being an Arsenal fan? Come on, Chanel. Come on.

What about when the referee, so he held the whistle in his mouth. He waited for us to, when he saw we was about to score, that's when he blew it. That's what referees are allowed to do, that. Anyway, yeah, so that is my perspective. And there's been quite a few. OK, well, listen, everybody in here always feels like, you know, pundits against them, the referees are against them, you know, the Premier League. We all have that feeling as a group of supporters. So, you know, I take that on board. But do you feel Arsenal can win the league...

playing how they're playing. Not just right now, the set-up of being maybe not as on the front foot and almost backing your defence to win you the league rather than scoring the goals to win you the league. Because if you actually go back to last season, you were top of the league and you went to Man City and that was a very... I keep talking about Mourinho. That was a very Jose Mourinho type of performance where you had a tight rival. And...

And again, I just want to make this point. When I'm saying Jose Mourinho type of football, it feels like Arsenal supporters who have been on to me are taking that as a criticism. This is a guy who's won the Premier League three times. You can't win the Premier League like that. So, I mean, do you think you can win the Premier League playing like that? I feel like we can because I feel like, yeah, we do defend when we need to defend, but we can also attack. And we've got,

you know, different players across our midfield and our attacking front line who can score us goals. So I am happy with the style of football that we are playing and when we need to attack, we're able to do that. When we need to defend, we're able to do that also. So I do feel like we can win it.

We've got players as well who are versatile, who can slot into different positions. We've got our fullbacks who can invert as well. So I do feel like we can win it with this style of football and providing, you know, we're not, you know, bombarded with injuries like we have been. And the key thing right now is discipline. So I think that Mikel Arteta was able to get under control at the club. You know, it's been a little bit shaky. Arteta's got under control.

He did have it under control. We've got off to a bit of a shaky start this season, but that is something that Arteta is going to stamp out.

I feel very confident. Yeah, go on, Jamie. Discipline's a problem. But I think Arsenal miss Oldergard. Massively. Oh, massively. From that first game. He changes the way you play football. And I think that one player can change a team. And I think the attacking player... And I said this earlier in the season as well. I've been disappointed with Arsenal. But

But I think it's all down to Odegaard not playing in the team. I think the rest of it looks all right. OK, they've had injuries, they've had suspensions, and we don't know how long the two... Well, one centre-half's going to be out now, but looking at the game, it was a game of two halves, wasn't it? Arsenal were obviously good first half, Liverpool were a lot better second half, and I just came away from the game... I wanted it to be a game to show me that someone can beat City, someone can give City a right run to win the league, and I wasn't convinced...

by either of them I think both teams will get better I think with Odegaard with Liverpool as well I think they'll both get better once this international break gets going you can get into a bit more of a rhythm

I still think Liverpool are the one team out of them two teams I think who could get the closest to Man City. What do you think, I mean, Scores, you've won the Premier League so often. I mean, when you're actually watching Arsenal, the way they're going about it, you know, we spoke on this show about last season where they went to City. How they've actually reacted to going down to 10 men three times this season. We know that's tough, but they've really defended for it. Does that make you think they've got more chance of winning the league or do you think they need to go about it slightly differently?

I think the big games, they've got to be better. At some point, they've got to beat Liverpool. They've got to beat them at home. If you're going to go and win the league, you think when you're playing your main rivals...

They're big points, they're big games, you knock Liverpool down. I think when you play Man City, I keep going back to that game last year at Man City where you had a great chance of winning the league. City had some players missing and they were so happy with the draw. That's a mentality that needs to change. Now look, I know he had issues with his suspensions and injuries on Sunday, so he probably thought a point was a fair result, but...

At some point, you're going to have to have the mentality to beat these teams. Now, look, you can win the league without beating the teams around you, but we always felt going to Liverpool in March, if you win that game, that's massive. It's so big. It kills them. It gives you such a boost. Going to Chelsea, going to Arsenal and winning games, I don't think Arsenal have proved they can do that. I think Liverpool can. Look, there's no proof of that yet against this brilliant City team, but I just think out of the two teams, Liverpool are the ones who are capable of doing that more than Arsenal. Gareth, can Liverpool win the league?

I think so, yeah. I wouldn't have said that before we got going because I didn't know anything about slot, to be honest, or not enough.

And I thought, such a big man in Klopp, such a big figure, has left the club. How's that going to affect everyone? What's morale going to be like? What are we going to play like? But I've seen enough now. We've had a quarter of the season, haven't we? And we're there. We're a point off City. I think the draw at the weekend was better for us than it is for them. They're four points off. We're only a point behind City now. And I think he's a very pragmatic manager, Slott. And I think it might not be the most exciting football at times, but...

I'd say to you, Jamie, we had Julio who was very pragmatic and people complained about that football until we won things and then they didn't. As soon as you're seeing Silva with red ribbons on, you're not too bothered about it. And I think we can keep on going. And I'd just like to say as well, we had injuries at the weekend. No one mentioned it. No one mentioned that we didn't have our goalie, we didn't have our centre-forward, we didn't have Elliot, we didn't have Bradley. You know, we...

All he heard about was Arsenal injuries all weekend. What about us? Our whole back four was completely reshuffled. We had Thomas Partey playing that right back. Stop getting sent off, Ben. LAUGHTER

Some of them have been a bit out of our control, you know, in terms of injuries. Can I ask you a question? What would have needed to happen on that pitch on Sunday for Zinchenko to come on? Do you know what? Maybe play him in midfield. You know, I don't feel like he's the strongest player to deal with Mohamed Salah. You know, I don't feel like he is...

His best position is in defence, if I'm being completely honest. More or better in midfield. But, you know, Lewis Skelly came on the pitch over him and Kibio. So, kind of answers that question. You are right, Jamie. It is interesting, isn't it, with Arsenal? They've definitely become what they used to pretend to hate.

They used to be really sneery towards Chelsea tactics. When Chelsea were winning the league under Mourinho, they almost would rise above it. They would look down on that. They were really pious about the achievements. One of the loudest I remember the Emirates ever being is we went there and we got a 0-0 draw, Mourinho 15. We got a 0-0 to win the league.

the whole stadium boring boring Chelsea now look at them now look at them I think Rory are you with me that they're turning into like a Marino Chelsea well they're becoming winners yeah absolutely it's a huge compliment it's a huge compliment they should love that they should love that you're saying that as a City fan though I still feel like we don't fully fear Arsenal I know they beat us a couple of times recently but

Liverpool batters Liverpool batters sometimes that's the difference you're still worried about United in 14th you're still worried about United in 14th what's Arteta supposed to be doing this is coming from a Spurs fan what's Arteta supposed to do just continue to do things that didn't win in the league or adapt and evolve one of his major if you've got to give him a compliment which you should give many is

His ability to adapt and evolve his team constantly is impressive. If this doesn't work, he'll do something like that. It's impressive for anyone else, though, but it's them. You know when they sing that song about 49 games? The last line of that song is what? Playing football the Arsenal way, as if playing football their way was the only way that you can play the game. He's not concerned by that. Nor should he be. I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of their fans. I think you're right, and I go back to it. I think Arsenal got to a stage...

Do you remember there was a little break, maybe you were out of the FA Cup, you was lost to West Ham and Fulham. And then you had a little break and you came back into Liverpool, I think it was maybe end of January, February, and you beat Liverpool 3-1 last season. And I think from then to the end of the season, I remember analysing it Monday Night Football, you...

I think you're possibly the best team defensively probably in European football for the second half of last season and I do think that first season where Arteta was going for the league with City but you can't beat them at their game and you haven't got the attackers they've got I think in Odegaard and Saka they are proper top class I don't think they rest out with us I think City have got four players like that

And then I think the second half of last season, you've had those couple of results and you've become almost a different team. And again, when I use Mourinho, it feels like a criticism. That's why I wanted to say, this is a guy who's won the league three times. So this is not a criticism. It's an analysis of where your team's going because...

He used to basically work for Pep, so you'd automatically think, oh, he's going to be Pep Guardiola's disciple, when he's actually not. Arsenal are becoming a different type of team. I mean, it's not a criticism. Would you accept that analysis, Chanel? Well, Charlene, by the way, Jamie. Can I not read here? Don't worry. No, I'm not having it. I'm not having it.

Oh, yeah, it's Charlene Smith. We'll play a production on that one. Me and Gareth know there's a really famous woman in Liverpool, isn't there? Chantelle. Chantelle, yeah. Sorry, could you just repeat the question? Because that could be blowing me off.

Me and you are going to have to come in at the end and do our own audio. What was the question? Sorry. I don't know what you need. LAUGHTER

Do you accept... Do you take that as a criticism or do you accept the analysis or do you agree with it that you are more like a defensive team now than maybe an attacking team like Pep Guardiola's City are? Well, actually, no. I disagree with it because it's not like we just go into games and we just want to sit back.

The Liverpool game, for example, you know, when we was leading 2-1, we didn't decide, all right, we're just going to defend now. We still went for it and we fought and we attacked all the way to the end. I feel like we defend when we need to. When we went down to 10 men against Man City, it was only right that we, you know, defended, which we managed to hold out all the way to the end. Again, Man City got lucky because the whistle should have been blown at them.

point before Stones scored that goal get off your arse then and play football in that situation when you're playing against Man City down to 10 men and you're leading yes we needed to defend in that game but I wouldn't say we're a team who's just going to sit back and want to defend we've definitely got the attacking players and we do go out and attack so I disagree with that it's the dark arts stuff as well though isn't it you were disrupting at the weekend lying on the floor when nothing's happened

and our players stupidly are putting the ball out because there's someone lying down. I'd be putting it in the back of the net and then worry about it later while he's lying down. Because Timba, he had just come back from an injury and as you saw, he had gone down twice and he came up injured. This is out of our control.

season we had him out for a whole season with a big ACL injury. It takes time for players to come back but that's something that's out of our control. We're not a team that just go down for no reason. I don't agree with that. If they win the league no one will remember any of this. If this is how they find a way to win

The last against Bournemouth, though. I mean, I know I can't really talk here, but... One defeat so far. You have to find different ways to win, don't you? You can't drop points against Bournemouth when you've got a decision. Through a season, throughout a season, you have to find different ways to win. It's not always going to be a bashing team. Sometimes you have to. You might get somebody saying, you've got to adapt, and he is adapting to it. Yeah, he is, and he's going to give them the best chance, whether or not it's palatable to everybody else is irrelevant, isn't it? Liverpool are the only team that stops

Pep recently was that during Covid was that like Covid season no they'd won 26 of the first 27 games oh cool no no no I'm just asking how many times have you said that Rory we haven't brought you in come on where are we going with Chelsea we're talking about all these teams competing for the title are Chelsea one of them

No, I don't think we're going for the league. I think that we're going for a points tally that's going to be very respectable. And I think that we are at least second favourites for the top four spot. I'd say that Villou, Naimery should probably be most people's favourites. But I think that we are a brilliant young team. We're playing very well. Like when I was last on, I got it in the neck a bit because I said, let's just wait and see.

and since then... No, you said you hadn't played anyone. Well, we hadn't. We hadn't. You know, but since then, we've beaten Brighton, battered Brighton, who were unbeaten at the time. We've put in some excellent performances, and in Cole Palmer...

I think that we have, I genuinely believe that we have the best footballer in the world at the moment. I know it's nonsense, isn't it, Roger? He always takes the headlines in this show. I mean, I said the best in the Premier League sort of over the last sort of year and start of this season. I think he's amazing. I love him.

The best in the world. I genuinely believe because you know what he's done? To be totally frank, some things in football over the past, say, half a decade, it's sacked my joy out of the game. Like, I hated lockdown football. I have no love at all for VAR. I feel like the over-sanitisation of stadiums is painful. I don't like the direction that football's moving in.

And suddenly, watching Cole Palmer play, it's just like reinvigorated me. It's amazing. It's like, I feel like I'm 15 watching Zola or 10 watching Rudd-Hullet. It's like, I think he's that good. He's been brilliant. Yeah, I think he's brilliant. Big United fan as well, isn't he? I know. How did we miss him? He's lucky you're 14th in the league. There's nothing in it for him, is there? That's right. If you weren't 14th in the league, I feel like the lure of Manchester United could be strong. We wouldn't be 14th in the league, would we, if he'd come?

he'll come I think maybe 15 now you've got look brilliant players so some talent goals assists he's got everything and I think we've got to give Maresca credit because I remember on the show at the start of the year we felt or I felt he could have been one of the first ones gone and what he's done he's really I think he's been quite ruthless in what he's done we've seen

Potter not quite managed to do it, moaning about stuff behind the scenes, buying too many players, couldn't really get it organised. Pochettino then comes in and you felt last year he'd really sorted it out for the last five games and then he goes, he said he can't control it and it feels like he's, I just felt he's a coach but he's coming and it looks like he's done everything. He's got control, he's bombed people out of the squad and put them to one part of the training pitch where they're not even allowed to train with them.

He's built a squad of players now that seem really good. They seem to have found something. They look like a brilliantly coached team. Absolutely. I think Maresco deserves an awful lot of credit. I've been very hostile to our ownership.

But what they have done is assembled a really young, exciting, sometimes irresistible team. The problem that we have is, is this fair to say, our front line, our attacking players, we probably have the most depth in the Premier League. Not necessarily the best, but... Your front six. Yeah, the front six, say. It's the most amount of depth in the league.

But our back line is so poor. The goalkeepers are warriors. I mean, it's just pointless, isn't it? It's ridiculous. Pointless. Yeah, I mean, it's pointless because, you know, he has these moments and it's almost worse that he can do this, where he can just pull an amazing save out of it. Like the save of Jota at the end of the Nottingham Forest game, for example. He's not great with the ball, though, is he? No. I think Maresca wants him to be better. What do you make of his comments about Rhys James?

I think it's fair enough. I do think it's fair enough. I think Rhys James is obviously almost universally loved by Chelsea fans and I feel the same way about him. The problem is he isn't fit ever and I don't feel like there is enough leadership from him.

So he's, I think it's a sad indictment of the squad, actually, that the players that he's saying are our vocal leaders, the players that we can... He said Tosin, didn't he? He said Tosin and Levi Colwell. Both youngsters. I think that's the one imbalance that we have in the squad. The goal you conceded, just I mentioned this on the TV, the goal you conceded against Newcastle

I thought I can imagine Maresca looking at that and saying that's what I mean by Rhys James he just allowed someone he didn't scream he didn't shout he didn't say nothing we know he's a brilliant player but he's probably coming to that club thinking I don't know too much about him I've heard about him he's a great player

And you probably know better than me, is he a really shy, quiet lad? I think he is. I think he is quite a reticent bloke, like naturally. I don't think he's a captain in the way that he was traditionally. Yeah, he's not a John Terry style captain. But you can still be a really effective captain without being that. You could be N'Golo Kante, for example, captain by example. You can still be that. But no, I don't think that Rhys James exudes the qualities that's needed. I don't think he's fit enough.

So it's a very difficult situation that we have because what's so apparent, and Rhys James really needed to elevate his stature in the team because we're now so young and so new. You know, say Thiago Silva was still there. Just somebody who has a little bit of prestige. Will they change the captain, do you think?

I mean, probably the worst thing Morescu has done is ever giving it to Enzo Fernandes. Sorry, you talk about John Terry there. Your captain usually plays every week, doesn't he? This is the problem with Rhys James. Rhys James made his first start for basically a year the other day. It basically feels like it's unsustainable what's happening with Rhys James. And in Malagusto, we have a decent player. But I think the captaincy needs to move from James and from Enzo Fernandes. Who would you give it to?

I personally would give it to Cole Palmer just because I feel like he is the kind of player that would rise to the occasion. It would inspire him and take him to the next level. Manchester United did it with Rooney once, didn't they? Gave him the armband. Yeah, I don't think it was a permanent thing. They've done it with Bruno Fernandes, haven't they? I'm looking for something to back my point.

What is the value of the actual armband to the players in the squad? Does it mean that much? Do you know who the leaders actually are? Is the band really important? Yeah, I think it's quite important. We had some unbelievable... When I first came to see Brian Robson, I think it's someone you look up to with the stature, the presence. He looks after his players all the time.

Roy Keane, these types of players. I think it's important and you look at us, you look at the great captains, Tony Adams and then you look at Chelsea and you think John Terry, Donny Liverpool, you captain, Stevie G, all the big characters in the team. I think it's important for these young players to look up to that type of thing. So I think it's big.

I remember Rhys James got a point. I thought, he doesn't look like a captain to me. He seems very quiet, very shy. You can be captain like that, but it just wasn't the character you'd expect for someone of a size at Chelsea Football Club to be a captain. Do you think you can be the kind of player that Cole Palmer is and still be a captain? Because the players that you listed there, they're the kind of gladiatorial, gung-ho players. They're all like 100 miles an hour in tackles and all of that. Whereas...

Cole Palmer is different. Off the pitch, the big characters as well. I mean, people look up to... I don't see Cole Palmer... I like Caicedo. He's been good. You talk about Kante, sorry, leading by example. I think Caicedo was very good last year. I think because of his price tag, people look at him and think, oh, I think if you take that away, he was amazing last year and this season he's carried a pit door where he left off. Yeah, I think

I can't imagine Cole Palmer talking to the ref for very long. What? Flav, where are we at with Ange? Are we Ange in, Ange out? Is it changing week by week? No, no, it's not changing week by week. We're very much, well, I am very much Ange in, but I don't think it's a conversation that's really, that has much debate in it, really. Since he joined the football club,

I've essentially watched every minute that Spurs have played and I've seen a significant degree of improvement. So it's difficult talking about this after the terrible display against Palace. But if you look at how much better we are this season compared to last season, defensively, in possession, creating chances...

getting into the box, causing problems for almost everyone we've played. It's a massive improvement. Improvement on what's gone before or improvement on last season? On his performances last season, but definitely Conte's era, for sure.

barring three or four months in his first season. So, yeah, there is no... This is something we've just got to see through. There will be difficult times, given the way he plays. There will be games that we lose that we perhaps felt like we shouldn't. But overall, it's an exciting brand of football. We're enjoying following our football club and we're looking forward to matches. Do you think you can get top four? I think it's difficult. Villa look so good. I don't think we will get top four.

But we could, obviously. But Villa, I like Villa for fourth. Do you think the mood of Tottenham supporters would change around the manager if he don't get Champions League football? I don't think Champions League football is as important as having a real good go at the Europa League. Because if we win that, you get in the Champions League. But obviously this elusive trophy that just will not come means that these League Cup runs, FA Cup runs and Europa League runs are going to be more defining for Ange-Poster Coghlu this season than ever.

If as long as we finish fifth or sixth and that's a really good season the trophy is gonna come this year though Isn't it because pasta koglu guaranteed it? Yes I always win silverware in my second season. You know what? I absolutely love I loved him for saying I love him saying it may when you've won nothing. Yeah, but so what was he got a deal with you digging him out? What's been what sort of

What are the things that have been aimed at Tottenham that with Spurs we can't win? We don't have a manager that believes in what's going on at the football club. Conte literally setting fire to the club from the inside out.

he's going in and going no we win this is what we have to do that isn't how people that work for Tottenham talk typically so what we're seeing is a manager taking responsibility saying I will deliver a trophy this year that's not something I've heard from a Spurs manager for a long time so if he's saying we can do it if we don't in the end we'll do it next year if Ten Hag wasn't in trouble there'd be a lot more chat about Ange I think

if Tenor wasn't the story right now. You think Andrew Scobie? Yeah, Solanke's a big lump. He spent how much on him? That's an insane thing to say. He's useless. He spent 60 million on him. He's not useless at all. He's like a Bournemouth striker. That's it. Wait a minute, sorry, did you say before that if United won on Saturday? I nearly said today, but I thought you'd... It would have gone ahead of Tottenham. Sorry, what was it? United would be above Spurs if they'd have beaten West Ham as they've

probably should have done. Yeah, the results haven't been there this season, for sure. I'm not suggesting that thus far we should be over the moon, but you can see the improvements and if you want to, you can look at the data and it proves that we're playing much better than the results. It's not the league table. Data? Yeah.

He might win the data court. It's not an outrageous thing to look at the statistics and maybe have an idea about where Spurs are at the moment. All right, Luke, I want to get to you. You said before about... You didn't just say trophy. You said trophies when you were talking about Aston Villa and Unai Emery. Now, if we're being honest...

what Scorsese just said there about Tottenham before, about maybe a manager winning something there, it's like, these are both really big football clubs, just on the edge of sort of maybe joining the elite, you know, Aston Villa are top of the Champions League group right now, but I think if you ask most people, they still don't believe that you would probably win a trophy, you still need a lot, we need a lot more convincing. Do you believe United will win a trophy? Yeah, definitely. I think, I think when I was on last time, I said, you know, we keep getting asked, like, can you get top four? And I think,

Why are we only focusing on fourth place? We're in the Premier League at the minute. We are averaging two points a game. We're 11 on points of Arsenal. I think there's so much potential in this team. And like what I said earlier about this is like...

our Klopp, our third year at Villa. It feels like we've got this guy now that he's just taking on the massive challenge of being consistent and trying to take Villa up as far as he can in the Premier League. I think trophies are important because that's what everybody remembers.

Carabao Cup we got Crystal Palace we win that you're in the quarter finals we've got an opportunity there to win a trophy but I think the big thing for Villa is that we're consistent I look at Spurs and we're so much more consistent week in week out than Spurs and this has been a horrendous show don't dig us out why was there anything else how good you were he's saying it he's predicted the Palace are going to beat you like nobody has any faith

He's confused, isn't he? He's confused. Palace had a 1-0 season and he's saying a new defeat by now. Oh, he's had that or you've just saved that one. I suppose, yeah. Yeah, so I just think everyone probably should think of Villa a bit more than just a team now that's just trying to maintain Champions League. I think we can go higher and...

yeah alright Stephen talking about trophies your man won the Ballon d'Or last night there's been a big fallout from that certainly from Real Madrid I mean must be really proud to have a first man City player to have a must be definitely we had George Way once oh yeah he was a bit older then to be honest yeah I feel he deserves it obviously as a City fan I mean Madrid by the way to quote your mate big babies absolute babies

not turning up for that ceremony just because one of their players won't win something ridiculous but Rodri for me is...

He's been the key player in the best side the Premier League's seen over the past several years. He's been absolutely phenomenal. A men's professional who can do absolutely everything on the pitch. He's sort of been a narrative to try and pay him just as number six, but he's so much more than that. To have 20-odd goal contributions in a season, to score wonder goals in the last minute with Ivo to be one of our chief playmakers while also being the guy to win headers in his own six-yard area and take the ball up the pitch. He's absolutely brilliant. He can do absolutely everything.

and you look at what he's achieved over the past year you know Premier League the UEFA Super Club Club World Cup played the tournament in the Club World Cup won the Euros with Spain played the tournament there as well and it's not just that I mean it's been building to crescendo for a long time of course you know the treble the goal in the final the Champions League play the season before that I know that was two years ago but

It all builds to this moment and Rodri's getting his just rewards. And if I'm being honest, I really do feel it's a victory for football as a game because so much is drawn to the attackers. Rightfully so. I know how you feel about this, Rory. I saw you tweet about it, mate. But to me, football, it's not right. You can't always just celebrate the artist. But then even painting Rodri as a simple footballer, it's just such a misunderstanding of what football's all about. And you guys know, you played probably at times. I've just got to say, it's a victory for midfield players.

I think especially you look at the players I know Ronaldo and Messi have had a big say in it but you think of the players like Xavi and Iniesta who didn't win it pretty sure Busquets wouldn't have won it either would he? Modric won it a couple of years ago didn't he? Modric yeah but again he's more of an attacking flashy player and I think it's not

probably something that will happen a lot but Rodri fully deserves it for all them things you said there he's been unbelievable I think he's lost one game in the calendar year 74 games unbeaten which was a new record lost against Real Madrid

We keep pretending this didn't happen. You lost against Real Madrid. I don't make the laws, mate. It's a penalty shootout to separate the tie. You lost. But either way, 74 games unbeaten, which beats Maldini's record. I mean, look, ultimately, Rodri is a phenomenal footballer. If Vinicius Junior had won it, so be it. I mean, I'm sure Rodri would have turned up anyway, you know, because he's got a little bit of class about him. But it's one of those things where, you know... Real Madrid have played a blinder, in my opinion. Yeah.

They've made this... I didn't even... Do you know how long I had to wait to the segment on TalkSport earlier to listen to who actually won it? It was all about Real Madrid. So if you're Real Madrid and you're talking about the club and the gravitas of it and the way people think about it, they've just taken all of the headlines. Rory, why do you feel he shouldn't have won it? You and Adam. You both said you felt he shouldn't have won it. Yeah, I...

I think that what the Ballon d'Or should be is a celebration of beauty. I'm not suggesting that Rodri's not an excellent player. He is. He's an excellent player, but I don't believe that he's a better footballer than lots of other players around. I don't think he's a better footballer than Vinicius Junior. I think he's ludicrous. It's only forwards to win it. Because you don't appreciate his art. It doesn't mean he's not there, you know? No, but suggesting that you see football on a different level is also mental.

I see things you don't see that's not it either

We can't argue that Vinicius Junior is... Rodri's not a better footballer than Vinicius Junior. He might be a more effective footballer. No, I don't disagree with that. I think he is a better footballer than Vinicius Junior. I think he is way more persistent. Vinicius Junior would probably win you more games. I get that. He'd be more skilful. But Rodri, I think, is a beautiful footballer. Laminia Mao is a better footballer than Rodri. No, you've got more skill than you mean. Cole Palmer is a better... But let's put...

that's what this is a celebration of. It's a celebration of footballing ability. It's not a celebration of being effective, being robust, which is what Rodri is fantastic at. I don't think you're being fair on Rodri. I think Rodri is a brilliant footballer. The goals he scores. That position especially, in that Spanish position, it's like,

where Guardiola used to play and all these great players in there Busquets they make your team play brilliant football so you have to be a beautiful footballer you've had some great players you being one of them playing in that role for Manchester United the fact he's done what he's done for Man City in terms of winning the treble he's won a tournament with Spain he's now won the Ballon d'Or is he the best player in Premier League history now to play that position yes above Roy Kane I don't think Roy played that position

I mean, seeing a little smile, yeah. He definitely, Roy did everything as a midfield player. As I think a man, yeah. So does Rodri, he's got to win in the Champions League final. Yeah, but you still associate him with being a playmaker. He is just a stopper. No, he's a playmaker as well. He starts the play. He does everything. Do you know, like, Rodri winning it. Yeah, but... It's a sad indictment of where football is at the moment. What's a sad indictment? If you had a look at the top ten,

From 15 years ago, they're all better players than Rodri. That's... No, I don't know. It's a sad indictment of where football is at the moment, don't you think? Like, where are the... Why don't you think Rodri's a beautiful footballer? Yeah. Because he is! He's technically brilliant. He is! Do you think there's a lack of superstar attacking players? Is that what you're trying to say? Completely. Being coached out in the game. That's not Rodri's fault, is it? When it was, when football was brilliant, years... Like, what, a decade and a half ago, 20 years ago...

Like, Ronaldinho won it. Like, the most inspiring, invigorating footballer that maybe I've ever seen. Certainly the best opposition player I've ever seen play at Stamford Bridge. To be fair, Cannavaro won it in 06, and that was a disaster. Yeah, but if Ronaldinho is playing now with Rodri, then Ronaldinho will probably win it, yeah?

Yeah. But you're only about 15, 20 years old. So is it fair to say that the standard of football at the moment is in the pits? Do you think Vinicius is better than Ronaldinho? Pardon? Do you think Vinicius is better than Ronaldinho? No. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But there were times where Ronaldinho wasn't the best player in the world. Like Thierry Henry was robbed of a Ballon d'Or. Yeah, and do you know what? That's a good point. There were times when Vinicius wasn't, but there was never a time when...

Rodri wasn't effective for his team. Brazil fans are quite critical of Vinicius Junior as well because he just doesn't turn up for them. And then it doesn't matter what level he's playing at, what game he's playing at, Rodri always, always is one of the best and not the best on the pitch. For Spain, for City, he's absolutely immense. He just doesn't have a bad game. And there is so much more artistry to his game. I just deny the idea that he's just a simple footballer. It's...

scoring wonder goals with either foot from 20 yards out winning big moments big games a leader he's a complete footballer I think what we're saying maybe is that he doesn't light up a stadium but he is the most functionally beautiful player that you can ask for I think he lights a stadium up for educated football people

Well, listen, that is the end of the episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. We can't wait to see you next time.

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