Exploring the Game of Thrones Universe (with Tommy Dunne)
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Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. I'm Greta Johnson. And I'm Jason Concepcion. And today we're going to look at what's happening in the wider Game of Thrones universe.

Yes, we have many things to look forward to while we wait for House of the Dragon to return. HBO has a new show based on another story from George R.R. Martin, so we are going to talk a little bit about that. And then we're going to nerd out over an upcoming Game of Thrones auction where the common folk, such as us, can bid on authentic props and stuff from the show.

the show, we have the catalog. We've been browsing it. It is full of really cool stuff. Yes, it's super cool. We're going to talk about it. We are also going to talk with the official Game of Thrones weapons designer about creating some of the iconic swords up for auction. But first, as always, here is your spoiler warning. We are going to be just like free reigning all over the Game of Thrones universe. So consider yourselves warned. What do we say?

To the god of death. Not today. Okay, Jason. Yes. So fair to assume that we have a minute to wait until we get to see the next part of the story in terms of what happens with Rhaenyra and Alyson and everyone else. Correct. Obviously, season three of House of the Dragon is going to be huge. But as of right now, we do not know when it will grace our screens. Only that the whole team is super hard at work making it happen as we speak. That's right.

That's right. Good things are worth waiting for. But we do have another HBO original series based on the work of George R.R. Martin coming next year. And if you're watching closely to a Max teaser trailer that aired after the House of the Dragon finale, you saw among a litany of other projects such as White Lotus Industry, The Last of Us.

A very brief, tantalizing peek at a new series called Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Yes, these are all shows that are slated for the 2024-25 season, which we are very excited about.

And Jason, I have questions for you because as you know, I mean, I read I think the first four books of the original Game of Thrones series. But aside from that, I have kind of abstained from the lore because it's such a pleasure to get to just like sit back and react to the shows themselves. So I would love for you to do like a forensic analysis of those seven seconds of teaser trailer if you're up for it.

You and I? I'm Sir Duncan the Tall. So what do we see? I think we see our main characters. We see Sir Duncan. Sir Duncan is a...

as his moniker, The Tall, lets us know. He's an extremely tall knight of a somewhat common background who becomes the companion of a youngster named Egg, who's the young boy that we see there. This is an enriching relationship for both of them.

and they go off and have adventures throughout this world. I think we get a pretty good taste of that. We see Egg, we see some gentleman practicing his swords, we see Sir Duncan punching a guy, and all of this takes place like less than...

a century before Game of Thrones during the reign of King Maekar, Maekar Targaryen I. Okay, cool. That's awesome. And this is based on Martin's A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms? Yes. So these are novellas that have been collected in one tome.

And they're honestly wonderful, like rip-roaring your classic adventure story in a fantasy setting. I think they're quite wonderful and a quick read, too. If you're like, I need something that I could read in a day or over a weekend, these books are absolutely readable in that amount of time and super fun.

That's cool. So it sounds like there may be sort of kind of a tonal deviation from what we're used to with some of the other stuff in this world. Is that a fair thing to say? Yeah, I would say so. They are more of your classic kind of high fantasy medieval adventure story. And honestly, I think some of the best action that George has ever written. Nice. Just a wonderful relationship story. And you learn a lot about how...

the government works, you know, from this story. And you get some great scenes of tournaments and what those were like. It's a wonderful tale.

That's awesome. So here's what we know so far about production of this one. George R. R. Martin is a co-creator and executive producer. Filming started in June of 2024 in Northern Ireland. There's going to be six episodes. They will be released in 2025. And the showrunner is Ira Parker, who wrote on season one of House of the Dragon and also on Better Things, which is a phenomenal show. So I'm really excited about that too. Oh,

Owen Harris, who has directed episodes of Secret Diary of a Call Girl, Mrs. Davis, and Black Mary is going to direct the pilot. And he's also going to be an EP on the show. Yes. And of course, Ryan Condal, who has been showwriting House of the Dragon and who we call a friend of the podcast, is also serving as an EP on A Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

In an interview for EW, he called Martin's Dunk and Egg novella's a lone wolf and cub story told in this vast canvas.

And he said those always stuck with him as such a wonderful counterpoint to the upper crust of the 1%, like the kings and the high lords, whereas this is really about talking about the small folk more, which is really cool. I think that's pretty accurate for those of us out there who are aware of what Lone Wolf and Cub is. It's a series of stories about a samurai and a young kid having an adventure across medieval Japan. Very, very similar story.

That's so cool. What do we know about the cast? Anybody you're particularly excited about seeing? Well, they got a tall guy, which I think is... Seems important for this one. Good casting call. I like it. Peter Claffey, former rugby player. Has the build, for sure. And I think, you know, I think if there's one character who...

I am more eager to see portrayed than any other. That would be Prince Arion Brightflame, Brightflame, the nickname Targaryen, played by Finn Bennett, who appeared in the recent True Detective Night Country. Prince Arion is he's eccentric. Let's put it that way. He's an eccentric guy. And I can't. And it's going to be really interesting to see him portrayed.

That is the one I'm super excited about. Anyone, any one of these, the casting notes stand out to you?

Honestly, so I didn't remember Peter Claffey from Bad Sisters, but I just Googled him, and he is very recognizable. He is very charming in that, and I'm super excited to see him in this one, too. Yeah, and Dexter Sol Ansel plays Egg. Obviously, that's going to be a crucial casting. I'm eager to see how that young man brings the character to life. I'm really excited. This truly is a fun show.

set of books, if anybody out there is like, ah, you know, the Song of Ice and Fire, the book series seems so daunting. These are super readable, like really quick to pick up. And it's a great way to like dip your toe into the world before you decide if you want to truly dive all the way in. That is a great tip. I love that. I guess I should ask you,

What actually is a hedge knight? Oh, good question. So a hedge knight is a knight who is not attached to any particular house, is not in the service of any particular lord. And it's just kind of out there looking for their next job. And while they are looking for their next job, traveling from place to place, seeing if they're needed anywhere, they will sleep out on the road under a hedge and thus the name the hedge knight. Hmm.

That's awesome. I can't wait for this. I think it sounds really fun. Yeah, it's going to be fun.

Okay, so another fun thing that is coming up very soon is a Game of Thrones auction. It takes place online at Heritage Auctions from October 10th to the 12th. You can go to ha.com to see what's on offer. You're going to be able to check out stuff like Game of Thrones props and costumes. They are calling it the Mother of Auctions. Got it? Got it? I have been flipping through the catalog. Okay.

And I bet, you know, my head is turned. My head is turned by certain of these items. I think it would be, let's call it a conversation about bringing those into the home. I would have to have a conversation with my partner who shares the home about where these particular items are.

So you're thinking about some of the larger items then. Right. Would live if they indeed came to the home. But

My head is turned. There's some tantalizing things here for a person like myself. They're really cool. They're really cool. Have you ever done an auction? Are you an auction guy? I'm not an auction person. I'm not a haggler. Just tell me the price. That's my, other than eBay and stuff. For sure. Or if it's a charity event, I feel like that's a different situation too. Are you an auction person? Yeah.

Are you out there with your little paddle, raising it? No, I really am not. No. But, I mean, the fact that this is online is cool. And, I mean, there are just a lot of really cool props in this catalog. The fact that these are the true ones is crazy. I mean, it's awesome. It is crazy. Because I have replica stuff, like any normal person. Sure, obviously. Yeah.

Obviously. Like any normal person, I do have a... You have one within reach, don't you? I do. I have Brienne's Valyrian sword Oathkeeper here. And, you know, I have a replica of the Cat's Paw Blade, which is actually truly dangerous and deadly. Yeah.

Very scary. I have a couple of coins, you know, nothing huge. Yeah. A couple of coins and stuff like that. But I mean, a lot of those are things that you could get in this auction. Which is what's wild. They appeared in the show. These are stars of the television program. Yeah. Yeah, they really are. Okay. So yeah. Speaking of which, Arya's sword needle is in here. This is no toy. Be careful. You don't cut yourself.

You're so skinny. So are you. How'd the blacksmith make it for you special? It won't hack a man's head off, but it can poke him full of holes if you're quick enough. I can be quick. You'll have to work at it every day. How's it feel? Do you like the balance? I think so. First lesson, sticking with the pointy end. I know which end to use.

This makes me want to rewatch. I know. What a great moment. Oh, needle. Very, very cool. This is the kind of stuff that I like. This is the kind of stuff that interests me. Something that could be on the wall and you'd be like, look at that. There it is. There it is. Pretty cool. Yeah. Sticking with the point. It is. It's funny, like looking at pictures of these different swords that are in the catalog because it is, I mean, it is a lot pointier. It's definitely skinnier than all these other swords. Yeah.

Now, this is a hero prop. So it's the item that Jon Snow actually hands to Arya. This is the prop from that scene. That's pretty cool. That's very cool. That's very cool. Speaking of weapons, you mentioned another one that is going to be in this auction is the cat's paw dagger. So this is apparently an action prop. And of course, this is the...

This famous Valyrian dagger. This is, of course, the blade that appears early in Game of Thrones in the hands of the assassin who tries to murk Bran Stark as he lay in bed after being pushed from a tower. You're not supposed to be here. No one's supposed to be here. It's a mercy. He's dead already.

And then, of course, it is the blade that Arya uses to take out the Night King. Spoiler. An action prop, meaning this was used in all the fight scenes. Thus, it is made of high-density rubber, not something that would injure someone like a knight of brass. And thus, I think you could stab somebody with it and nothing would happen. So great to have around the house, for sure.

We should also note the cat's paw famously has the prophecy of ice and fire etched on it, which is, you know, we've seen it throughout House of the Dragon as well. Before Aegon's death, the last of the Valyrian pyromancers hid his song in the steel. From my blood come the prince that was promised, and his will be the song of ice and fire. Who has the dagger at the end of season two of House of the Dragon? Aemond has it, last we saw. Right, right.

And he took it from his brother, King Aegon the Crispy, after the unfortunate events of Rook's Rest, which Aemond knows nothing about. Yes. Okay, so next up, we have Jon and Sam's Nightwatch ensembles from When They Take the Black, which is amazing. Let's listen to that scene. Hear my words and bear witness to my vow.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. You know these smell crazy. That's a really good point. They don't, but if they were real, they would be nuts.

You have to boil these things for days. Well, and of course, this is the costume you will recall that costume designer Michelle Clapton confirmed in a 2016 Getty Museum speech that Sam's cape was, in fact, an Ikea rug. So this Ikea rug could be yours. Could be yours! Yeah!

Next up, Jaime Lannister's golden hand, folks. Oh, that's fucking cool. That's really cool. This is something that I would have. Now, of course, Jaime in one of the most shocking turns of the series. He's arguably the greatest swordsman in the realm.

is defanged, loses his sword hand while he's captured by some brigands on the road trying to protect Brienne of Tarth and later has a new hand fashioned for the old one and this is that, that golden hand that fits into the stump. Let's listen to the clip. Work of art. Really?

What a thoughtful gift from Cersei. I mean, it is. I love that. Days? Okay. Yeah, I was there from 3 to 3.30. It was a couple hours, but still.

So in the show, the hand is made of gold, of course. The Lannisters allow no other metal to touch their skin. But this one is made entirely of brass with a classy brown leather cuff. And so Michelle Clapton said that Cersei designed it to look like a caress. So thinking about...

Laying with her brother lover and what she would like the hand to look like as it lay across her shoulder. That's so romantic. Isn't it?

Another cool one in here is Sansa's poison necklace. Dun, dun, dun! This, of course, is the necklace that we see Sansa wearing at Joffrey's wedding to Margaery Tyrell in season four, which, of course, is now known as the Purple Wedding. Can we hear Joffrey choke to death just once? No? Okay. Now, of course, you mentioned that Sansa was wearing the poison necklace, but...

The entire scheme to poison King Joffrey, the placid King Joffrey, the chill, was set in motion by Lady Olenna. So let's hear the scene where Lady Olenna is speaking to Jaime. Jaime has been sent to her to settle all Lannister problems.

in air quotes, family business with Lady Olenna. And Lady Olenna is about to break some shocking news to Jaime. I'd hate to die like your son, clawing at my neck, foam and bile spilling from my mouth, eyes blood red, skin purple. Must have been horrible for you as a king's guard, as a father. It was horrible enough for me. A shocking scene.

Not at all what I intended. You see, I'd never seen the poison work before. Tell Sassy I wanted to know it was me. Oh my God. Amazing. You know, it's funny. When I was first reading the books, the death of Joffrey comes, I want to say, one or two chapters after the Red Wedding. So I was really like,

I'm still in shock and processing that, and I couldn't enjoy it. And the show really let me enjoy the last moments of King Joffrey Baratheon. Oh, my God. Yeah, they really did stick with it, didn't they? That first little cough. It was dry. We don't even need the clip, Jason. You can just do it.

Jason, you seem extra eager to introduce the next prop we'll be discussing, which is Oathkeeper. Oathkeeper, the Valyrian steel sword gifted to Brienne of Tarth by her really good friend. Firmly in the friend zone. Jamie Lannister. It's in that clip. Valyrian steel. It's yours.

I can't accept... It was reforged from Ned Stark's sword. You use it to defend Ned Stark's daughter. You swore an oath. To return the Starkos to their mother. Lady Stark's dead. Arya's probably dead too, but there's still a chance to find Sansa and get her somewhere safe. So good. So of course, as Jaime mentioned, the Stark's family Valyrian sword was called Ice. It was a massive...

two-handed great sword, huge as Tywin Lannister's, ridiculously large. So Tywin had it melted down because the Lannisters lost their Valyrian sword some years ago. And so they've always felt very insecure about the fact that they don't have one. And a lot of other houses, some who are not even as high in esteem as the Lannisters have them. And so they've always been eager to get one. And so they melted down the

you know, after Joffrey had Ned beheaded, melted it down, they made two. One being Oathkeeper, which Jaime gives away. I'm sure Tywin would have been thrilled. And the other was given to Joffrey, which he named Widow's Wail, very charmingly. What a fun guy he was. What a wonderful man he was, Joffrey.

No, that's not true. We delighted in watching him die. Oh! Uh-huh. Here's an instantly iconic item. Play the clip. Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame.

This is the one I'm the most excited about. I think this is so cool. Would this be the one that you would bid on? Yes. A thousand percent. Yes. Because how much fun would that be to just, like, have around the house and shame everybody, you know? This is the bell wielded by Septa Inella, played by Hannah Waddingham. The dour Septa, who I think you could say...

tortures Cersei and definitely goes out of her way to humiliate her. The most well-known way that she did that is by parading through the streets with Cersei, ringing this bell, saying shame. Yelling shame. Also, numerous Cersei dresses. If you're a Cersei fan and Cersei has her fans, we should mention that.

Those are gorgeous. I mean, that was some of the most exquisite costuming I've seen. Truly. It's just like Cersei, especially like the arc of those dresses themselves was so cool to watch. First up, we have Cersei's corset dress, which is from season three, episode five, called Kissed by Fire.

And this is the dress. It's maroon. It's got really long bell sleeves. It also has a gold metal corset that has a panel that goes up to her neckline, which is when you're starting to see Cersei's armor close, which is something that costume designer Michelle Clapton talked about in season one, saying that she wanted...

That armored look for Cersei. So that's why so many of her costumes feature metal belts and stuff. I just think they're so cool. Yeah, they're really, really cool. And then, of course, there is the Cersei in her full armored up queen of the realm form. The outfit she wears to the Dragon Pit Summit from the episode Dragon of the Wolf. Yes.

You know, where Dany calls this meeting and is like, hey, we got to fight the White Walkers. Let's have a truce. Cersei, of course, is not necessarily amenable to this particular communique and wears that really incredible black and armor number. Very cool looking outfit made of chain mail.

Yes, it's super cool. I think it's really interesting to learn that this dress actually isn't even metal. It's just like it's knitted and it just looks like metal. Isn't that cool? It is really cool. Is there any particular outfit over the course of this show or...

House of the Dragon that you could see yourself wearing just around the house. Obviously, out and about is tough. Tough to wear this out and about, although I have been a longtime advocate of bringing capes back. I think we need them back in our society. I was going to say, I know you're voting Jace Cape on this one. I mean, I like Jace. It's a little too dressy for me, but I do like it.

Murder cloak, I think, is something you could wear and get away with. Oh, murder cloak is cool. Like at a festival? I did just Google hooded poncho the other day and was wondering if that's going to be my fall-winter vibe this year. Yeah, like if I'm in Lollapalooza and it starts to rain. Yeah, yeah. Just like a little, you know, a sack with a hood is what I'm looking for, really. Other than that, I mean, I do...

This is so ridiculous, but I do kind of love the idea of Sam's Ikea rug just for like full gremlin mode, you know? Those like very cold Chicago winter days. It's like, yes, I would happily just wear a rug. That sounds great. But, you know, on more classy occasions, I think Allison's costuming is especially gorgeous in House of the Dragon. Green is a good color for you, I think. Mm-hmm.

Thank you. What about Danny? What about Danny's stuff? I mean, Danny had some good ones, particularly towards the later seasons. Yes. For auction is the dress that Danny is wearing as she's about to get stabbed by Jon Snow R.I.P. Perhaps the biggest spoiler of the episode. What? It's just a massive... We're dropping them. This is it. We're dropping big spoilers of this.

Is the sword hole in it? I cannot speak to whether or not there is a hole in it. However, Michelle Carragher, who designed and sewed the embroidery for Game of Thrones, developed a specific type of embroidery stitch that she called dragon scale.

And she said that as Dany gained more power each season, more of those stitches were added to her costume, which is like just the level of exquisite craftsmanship and nerdery that I love. Completely agree. In shows like Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon.

But as I was reading the auction guide, it said that this coat that she's wearing has a laser-embossed dragon scale pattern on it. And this costume also has a, quote, small bloodied hole in it. Yeah! From where Jon stabs her. Yeah!

Look at that. As we have discussed, this auction looks very cool. And to learn more about some of these amazing props, including Jason's favorite swords, we were able to talk to Game of Thrones weapons master, Tommy Dunn. Let's go listen to that conversation now. Tommy, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much. Great to be here. Tommy, we've just been reminiscing about Game of Thrones and all the wonderful props therein, many of which you designed, and we're so excited to learn more about them. I will reveal now to you that I have what's called in the business an action prop of a replica of Brienne of Tarth's Oathkeeper.

Well, you might say that, Jason, Brienne of Tarts, but I look at Jamie Lannister's. That was his gifted one. It was purely a pass on. So first, how did you get involved with Game of Thrones? I was very lucky with that because one of our executive producers, Mr. Mark Huffam, was on a project that I was on in Belfast. So I was doing Your Highness at the time. And...

probably three quarter way through mark had handed me a script uh a pilot for game of thrones to say will you have a look at that and get back to me in a couple of days luckily luckily i accepted because i sort of flicked through it and said well it's only a pilot how big could that be you know not a lot and uh because i was going to turn it down because originally i was so busy on your highness that i was sort of setting myself more pressure but it's like um

It was one of those small scripts and small piloting. Okay, Grant, no problem. We'll do that. So I said yes, obviously, which has turned into a great adventure, obviously. That's so cool. I know we want to talk about a number of specific props that you made, but I would love to hear first, like, how do you even get into making swords for TV shows and movies? I mean, this is a very specific niche position that you are in. It's really cool. Yeah.

It is. It is. And I mean, I was very lucky. I was very lucky. I started off in 94 and I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And I started on a small movie in Ireland called Braveheart. I've never heard of it. It'll come out. It'll come out eventually.

So I started on Braveheart and I was with a great guy, Simon Atherton from England. He'd come over to Ireland for about six months or thereabouts, four or five months. And I joined at that time. So I was very lucky to get in with probably one of the best in Europe.

at that time. And, you know, my background is oil engineering. I was late getting into it. I think I was 28, 29, getting into the industry. I was never interested in film work or weapon making or that kind of armory end of it. It just happened to be, you know, I got in at the right time on this particular job. Now we sort of clicked and went from there. We went from one great job to another. I think I went straight on to

So it's a Cutter Island and Gladiator and Troy and all these epics that were all makes and makes and makes. So you got used to it. You got used to making. Yeah.

making weaponry and items like that the designing came a lot later because obviously with that with that team when i first started probably the first 14 15 years we were part of a team and be more to do with um other people's designs or designers themselves but once i once i went down on my own was basically up to me then and i designed um everything that

I could get my hands on, basically. Hearing you describe the movies where you started out in Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven, Troy, and now proceeding to your career in Game of Thrones, do you ever think you'd see a world in which

that kind of action is on television? Probably not on television because obviously television was a new medium to the world that we were in. Up to that point, we never did a sort of, as we call it, sword and sandals genre. So that genre was never done. We'd always seen it on the TV, but we had done Band of Brothers television

So, because I do firearms as well. So we would have done Band of Brothers, which was obviously a big TV event for what it was, but obviously it's in a different genre. So this was the first for myself, for this longevity of a project in the genre of

medieval or fantasy and sword and sandals. Tell us a little bit about the process. How do you bring something like the cat's paw dagger or oath keeper to life from the designs to the actual building it? The worst part is actually the designs. It's getting a feel for it and the style of it. The make was easy enough because it was a lot to do with model making and

model making was bigger then from what it is now because nowadays everything's three deeper into which is a different forum but similar forum but I was very lucky because we had a great guy with us Will Simpson from Belfast and he's a

a graphic artist and Will was on the show with us. Now I know Will from, we were on Even Your Eyes Together but even before that. So we sat down together and we had a good old chat and he's one of these guys, he just flippantly draws and draws and draws and we talk and we draw and

So it was one of those great areas where we just batted each other and spoke to each other and had good talks and conversations and feels. And I bring snippets of horn and bone and items that I feel I like and construction of. Like for cat's paws, they say, which is the assassin's dagger to me. Again, that was like a roe deer. So it was antlers that I had to give that shape.

And I had bodkins, which are arrowheads. And that was the point of it. So it was all these little combinations of items that I like and have and seen and gone, oh, I like that, like that, like that. And then also it's jewels. I mean, I collect a lot of jewels. Even I travel the world and I never not come home with stuff. I've just been to Morocco on a job and I've just come back with fossils and

more ornate sort of daggers that I'll use pieces of, not because the daggers are always rubbish, but there's stones and there's jewels on it that I go, ah, I like that, I like that. Let's talk about some more of these specific weapons. What about needle? How did that one come to be? Needle. Needles was, yeah, it was lovely because needle was so simple.

So the blade, it was lucky because I mean, I have a lot of blades that I collect and make and stuff like that, and we will forge items. But I had a lot of epis and files. And so I knew straight away, looking at the epi blade going, that's exactly what I need in there.

Crossguard was funny because that's quite ornate. It's like an historical French design from that on the crossguard with those swirls. And then the handle is again, it's just a traditional handle off an Epi Blade.

for, you know, for file work and for epi, you know, fencing and that. That was quite straightforward. It's just the look and the style. And so the fact that it's so unique and small in itself, it just suited the character. It suited Maisie for who she was.

You know, simple. It was fine. Very, very fine for it. But also we have to keep it in the feel that the costume colours and the styles and the feel for that unique person has to blend in. I can't make something that just doesn't blend with costume or the feel or the family or the look and style of what the family is all about. You know, you see the Starks are quite down, quite dirty, quite...

quite warm because obviously that's a winter feel and it's you know the tough weather all the time then you get that nice little dawn who is much more opulent and um

Much more unique in their world and much more bling because it's a hot weather climate. And so therefore, you know, everything was much more ornate. That's really cool. So you're working with costume crews as well then? Always. I'll always work with the designers. You'll always work with designers because obviously designers are quite...

They're unique in their manner because, you know, everything is about the costume. And guess what? There's going to be a big heavy belt on it in about two seconds. So, yeah, beautiful silk little taffeta dress is going to have to support this.

half a ton sword. So we have to work together. We have to work together. It's quite simple. So we make sure that it's amicable all around and make sure that everything blends and works. And also you're fully aware that you can't have the costume puckering up and it looks terrible. So you have to work together and make it work. Sometimes you have to adjust and that's just the way it is. Or costume will adjust it. So again, we work together always. We have to. We have to. Otherwise it's just

It's a pure clash all the time and you can't have that. You mentioned that Needle needed to suit the actor Maisie Williams, of course, who played Arya. How much are you also managing the weight of these things for who the actors are and what they're able to just even manage? As much as we can, to a certain degree. Remembering that the hero one will be always a little bit heavier because obviously the blade will be, you know, it'll be a hero blade because we get very close, obviously, for camera and stuff like that. So,

It'll be a pattern welded blade. It'll be a certain weight. And then obviously from that point onwards, we'll make aluminiums, we'll make rubbers, we'll make bamboo if we need to and work it from that area. Like they don't ever fight with rubbers or aluminiums.

everybody nowadays basically fights with rubber weaponry because it's just for health and safety and that's just the way it is now but before we used to fight with aluminiums all the time and again there was no issue with that whatsoever the guys they learned they learned with that and they had plenty of training and the noise was authentic to it as well but

But nowadays, it's very much more in the rubber world. We keep the alleys or the real blades just for close-ups or swords on throats and that kind of scenario. So, very close to camera. What about John's sword, Longclaw? Longclaw. Do you consider that one a pass-on as well, or is that John's to keep? No, no, no. No.

No, definitely not a pass on. That's John's. I mean, I don't know who else, I don't know who else who has that unless it's on the sequel without me. He's still wearing that as far as I'm aware. Yeah, I mean, again, that's unique because obviously he was from Bear Island. It was presented to him, you know, by the Lord Commander and changed accordingly, look and style. And again, that was a hand mould. That was between myself and we had a lovely chap with me, Fergus McNulty.

It's a good friend and we model make that so it's all handcrafted through Milliput and then

The eyes then were opals. So we had a couple of nice opals for the eyes. And they weren't overly expensive, but they were expensive enough because he's the hero one, like the one hero one that he had were opals. And everything beyond that then were all like Swarovski crystals. Let's move on to some of the kind of non-traditional weaponry, the dragonglass stuff that comes in, especially in the later seasons. Yeah.

How did you go about designing, say, the dragonglass daggers, Danny's dragonglass sword? How did you make those things? You know, that was quite simple, really. You know, it was funny because as soon as I heard this end of script regarding dragonglass, I knew exactly what I wanted because I had a pile of it, which is obsidian. Glass obsidian I was really looking at because...

I have arrow tips, a lot of arrow tips that I would have that are obsidian and are napped. And the idea of napping is that you know yourself, you're taking off the edge and you nap them. It's very same as a flint. You would nap a flint to have a sharp edge onto it.

and that feel just so just the nap was the feeling that i want so you had that undulation undulation undulation so things beautiful sharp edge but then cut away and cut away scalloped out and scooped and scooped so that was the feel that i wanted and then we just model make everything so we we would get mdf for some sort of wood and we'd basically dremel all this wood in shape and then make a mold and then create all the rubbers and

And then we just create a new material that we add. It was like a clear lacquer with a drop of little black dye, but sometimes the black and the red, you'd add a bit of red to it. So you'd have a glint in it. So some would turn green, some would turn red if you held it up to the sunlight, which gave it a great little style to it. That's so cool. So speaking of materials, I'd love to hear too how you thought through...

steel. Can you tell us about your inspiration there? Again, I mean, my inspiration on Valerian, once I heard Valerian, there was a taste of Damascus feel to it. So basically, basically Damascus is pattern welding and pattern welding is also Valerian. So that's just the idea of

separate types of steel materials mixed together to give a pattern and then and then obviously forged and and the folded and twisted and folded and twisted and that will give you that elongated feel and different patterns so certain twists certain folds will give you a certain pattern once you then hammer out that blade and then you use ferrite like a ferric chloride which is a chemical that you dip it into and takes away the

lighter material and keeps the heavier material broad. So that gives you the shade of light and dark within your patterns. I knew the Valerian was exactly that. Well, as we're talking about swords, I mean, we have to ask too about then the Iron Throne, which of course is made of swords. Were you involved in that too? No, that was part of us as well. Yeah. But it was all to do, it was all...

my weaponry and weaponry that we, we, we molded and basically all the swords that we had in every style and genre and look and everything else that we had were, were, were basically,

create it into a mold and then a resin image was taken out of it so all these all these items swords were all like a resin item so they could be done I wanted to make it out of real I wanted to really make it but the guy said oh we haven't got time we haven't got time and we won't take the weight so don't worry about the weight we'll sort that out so I ended up doing it all out of like the the resin end of the on the sword so like saying so they can you know they can heat treat them and mold them and manipulate them but

I'd have done the same with the real swords. Let me ask you a slightly different question, Tommy. Yep. Castle Dunn is under siege. The defenders are about to sally out. Lord Tommy looks at his arsenal and reaches for what? That's a good question. That is a good question.

I tell you what I would reach for is the button for the trebuchets because I'd put every flaming ball out there in front of them to light up the whole place. It'll be still full of gas and, you know, you name it, it'll be all out there. So I light up the area first and then I'll worry about burning down the castle that I'm still in. If we're going, we're going together. Yeah.

Well, Tommy, this has been just fantastic. And thank you so much for joining us. Let us know if you're available for Halloween stuff. Listen, if I need to... Yeah, you're looking for more for your collection? Yeah. Yeah, well, listen, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Lovely to talk to you both. Thank you. That was great. What a delightful guy. A lovely human. Yeah, that was really cool. I...

Completely had not thought about, like, how he would have to interact with, like, pretty much every other person on that set. You know what I mean? Like, it's such a collaborative role. It's really cool. It's got to be one of the coolest jobs that nobody really thinks about. Right? Yeah. It's just like traveling the world making swords. Yeah.

For movies and television. And like ancient catapults and stuff. Yeah. And honestly, like I, if, you know, listen, I might need something for Halloween. I was dead serious. Oh, I know you were. Yeah. I'm not surprised by that at all. It's coming up, you know, now's the time to start prepping. Greta, I'm interested to know what items you would select for

If your coin purse was overflowing and your partner was amenable to having these items, some of which appear to be weapons of ghastly efficiency in your home. Shall we go to a lightning round where we select our favorite three items? Yeah, I love this. I think, and this is also if money were no object. Money were no object.

Okay, I think I'm going for Cersei's black chainmail dress. Love it. The shame bell and a giant dragon skull, because why not? Oh, wow, that's really good. Okay, I'm going to go with... What are you thinking? Longclaw, Jon's sword given to him by Gior Mormont because Gior's son, he was not worthy of the sword, or so he thought. I would then take...

A Hand of the King pin, and I think I want Tywin Lannister's Hand of the King pin. Let's be real. It's either Tyrion's pin or Tywin's pin. Ned, I don't think, was particularly effective in the role. Damn! That's fair. At any rate, did not have a good run.

I kind of thought you were going to say Jamie Lannister's hand. It's pretty cool. It would be pretty funny to just like have it on a mantle. I do. I was going to gravitate towards the coins, but I already have some coins. And so... That's a tough one. I just held up a coin to my camera to show Greta. This being an audio format, I decided to explain that. Thank you for narrating that. Yeah. You know what? I'll take the hand. It's a good one. It's pretty cool. I'll take the hand or...

Backup pick is Baby Drogon. Little Baby Drogon. Oh, that's a good one. That's a really good one. Everybody's familiar with the iconic scene of the dragons hatching. Dany sitting on the sands in the kind of ashes of this huge funeral pyre. And then suddenly you see these dragons, these three little baby dragons, like crawl up on her shoulder and

That's what it looks like. It looks like a dragon perched on the shoulder of Daenerys Targaryen. A baby dragon. I just, like, can't stop thinking about the idea of having the shame belt and, like, driving around and ringing it at people who are behaving poorly on Chicago's streets. How much fun would that be? That would be pretty fun. You know? Like, somebody cuts me off and I just, like, ring the shame belt.

the window well is this my chance to say like if anyone wanted to buy me the shame bell i would be cool with that i put it out there in the world that absolutely manifests you know yeah see if that manifests just mail it to hbo it'll get to me thank you very much in advance

And that is all for the season, folks. Greta? I can't believe we're here. It's goodbye for now. For now. Not forever. For now. We'll be back soon enough. Any favorite moments? Oh my gosh. I mean, it's all, it's just been such a pleasure. It's been so much fun to work with everyone on this team. Y'all are all the best. Thanks to everybody for listening. I want to do a special shout out to our studio pets who have been blissfully silent during all the tapings that we've done over this season. Yes.

We will be back next season. And in the meantime, you can rewatch every episode of House of the Dragon and Game of Thrones on Max. If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me at...

N-E-T-W-3-R-K on X and Instagram. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, J. Ann Barry, and Barry Finkel.

Our lead sound engineer is Hannes Braun, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makicha. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney, along with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and my lovely co-host, Jason Concepcion. Hello. Hello.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Erin Kelly from the Max Podcast Team. And an extra special thanks to all the other great people who helped make this podcast a reality. Melissa Bernstein, Clementine Donnell, Olivia Wells, Erin Tresco, Diego Aldana, Hannah McDonald, Stacey Shirk, Liz Keating, Cara Buckley, Mads Murphy, and Rosie Shen.

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Thank you as well to Dana Froome, Cecilia McGinnis, Becca Lambright, Megan Zenger, Bill Leopold, Emily Servodidio, and Emerald O'Brien. And thank you to all of our guests, especially, of course, friend of the podcast, Ryan Condal, and also a very extra special bonus thanks to you, our listeners. We love you. We love you so much. Thank you for listening. We can't wait to be back with you soon. What unites people? Armies? Gold? Flags?

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