Ep. 5: Regent (with Ewan Mitchell and director Clare Kilner)
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an abomination don't they realize we won the battle strange victory if it was one welcome to the official game of thrones podcast house of the dragon i am jason decepcion and i am greta johnson and hoo boy there is a new administration in charge at king's landing and it is not pretty no it's not but it's apparently more efficient and we'll see how that goes

We are going to get into all of that and more as we dig into the fifth episode of season two titled Regent. It was written by T. Mickle and directed by Claire Kilman. And later, we are so excited to have Claire on the podcast today to talk all about this episode. Plus, we are going to be talking with the Prince Regent himself, the wonderful Ewan Mitchell, who plays Aemond One-Eye.

But be warned, of course, there are spoilers for episode five ahead. Beware. If you haven't seen the episode yet, go watch it, then come back to us. The traitor, Dragon Maelys! I thought the dragon was just gods. It's just me. Okay, Jason, obviously lots to talk about, as always, with this one, but let's get a quick recap of the episode before we dive in. Lots happened. We open on Driftmark at High Tide, where Corlys is...

absolutely shattered and heartbroken at the news that Rhaenys and her dragon Maelys have been slain in battle. In King's Landing, where famine is quickly taking hold, Criston Cole's army drags Maelys' head through the streets and the people are not stoked. They don't like this. They don't like seeing it. They don't want to see it. They just want, like, food. Where's the food? The incapacitated and badly mauled king is carried away

in a pressure-sealed box up to his chambers. Alicent is disturbed by everything she's seeing and wants to know if Aemond had any hand in the grievous injuries suffered by King Aenon. Aemond's first move as ruler, seal the gates of the capital and don't let anybody leave.

Things are a mess on Dragonstone. The Black Council is bickering with the Queen. Rhaenyra tries to kind of settle things down. But Rhaenyra is finally starting to delegate to her advisors, and she's reaping the benefits from that. Namely, from Mysaria, who comes up with a plan

to benefit from the unrest on the streets of King's Landing. Jace, meanwhile, is heated. He's annoyed because Bela's already been scouting and fighting and doing stuff while Jace is just wearing truly awesome capes, like really nice capes and swishing around the castle. Jace figures if he can go to see the Freys who control the Twins, the major crossing over the River Trident,

This could speed the arrival of the Northern Army. They could go straight down to the Riverlands where they're needed. In the Riverlands, Damon is in Harrenhal where the weird dreams are continuing. He has a dream about his mom that we will begrudgingly talk about more. And he manages to bring the Brackens to heel by allowing the Blackwoods to commit war crimes against them.

Back to Dragonstone, Jace and Rhaenyra come up with a possibly crazy plan to find lords from other houses that might have traces of Targaryen blood running through their veins, making them potentially capable of riding dragons. Will it work? It might. Let's get into it.

One of the first things we see in this episode is the victorious army of Kristen Cole. And it is, as Gawain said, it is a strange type of victory that doesn't feel all that great. Yeah, I feel like Victoria should be in quotes in this situation. Yeah. Dragging the head of Melisse through the streets and the small folk hating it. Yeah. What did you make of the reaction of the small folk? Oh.

My main thought was like, oh, the King's Landing's PR team needs to take a seat and just chill the fuck out for a second because this is aggressive and dire. Especially when these people are literally starving. Unless you're feeding them with the dragon head, I guess. How are you helping here? Yeah.

Yeah, I think it speaks to the kind of isolation of the leaders, the elites in King's Landing who don't understand the pressure the small folk are under and think that they will be so excited to see that they won when really, to your point, they want to eat. They're much more interested in being able to feed their families. And also, shattering the mystique of the dragons, there's a price to it, right? Right.

There's a cost to showing people, hey, actually, these things can die like anything else. Right. And then the king is brought back into the capital in that little kind of ventilated box. It looked so coffin-y. At first, I thought it was a coffin. And I was like, oh, I guess they brought Rhaenys back, too. And then I was like, oh, God, Aegon's in there.

Oh, everyone's reaction is really interesting. Allison is horrified to look on the mauled body of her son. Amon kind of spreads his arms on the on the bed, leans, kind of looks in and puts his hands on his hip. It's like, what's going on? What do we think? Is this going to make it? I don't know. And Helena is not especially nonplussed, but definitely. I mean, she says to Amon, no.

Was it worth the price? Yep. She's seeming to know what Aemond had done. So fascinating. How do we think Aemond is going to do with power? It's a good question. I mean, the thing about Aegon as ruler is that, and I hate to say this, but I actually agreed with Sir Criston Cole when he's talking with Alicent later on in the episode, and he sets it up as like, girl, you should be thanking me for keeping you out of the fray with this one. What I saw at Rook's rest. What?

What did you see? Their armor melted. There were men walking, they were on fire. We have given the war to the dragons. The dragon riders should lead us. I found that very interesting and

Really complex on a bunch of levels. I think on the first level, Cole and the council, in a way, are very right. Right? I hate to say it. It's the only choice you can make. This is a regime that has set itself up ideologically under the proposition that a woman cannot lead. Mm-hmm.

How then could they put a woman in charge? It couldn't happen. The whole reason for this war falls apart from their side. Second of all, yeah, you want a dragon rider in front. You have to have it. You kind of have to. But also, underneath...

I found myself feeling like this is the only way Cole and others can relate to Allison and other women. You're there to, I want to tell you about how bad it was for me. You're here to listen to my emotional baggage. I am here to put that on you. I don't what your feelings, you're upset. You're frustrated. I saw guys on fire.

Have I been to war before? Yes. But I need to talk about how troubling it was. I don't care what your issues are. So there was also that level to it, too. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's so much. Let's listen to part of that small council scene because that was, oh, my God. Olivia Cooke just did such a phenomenal job in that scene. Did you have a candidate in mind, Your Grace?

I myself serve in this role for my husband. I am well prepared to do it again. You played your part admirably in a time of peace, Your Grace, but circumstances have changed. And here I had forgotten. The king does not lack for heirs. The obvious choice is his immediate successor, Prince Aemond. Agreed. Aemond is young, and his lack of restraint has already cost us dearly.

It is experience that offers the surest path to security. Queen Alicent ably shouldered the duties of the realm when her husband's health failed him. Experience is valuable, yes, but the Dowager Queen is a woman. I am no stranger to rule or to sitting at this council. Aemond is a fearsome dragon rider. His skill is best employed in the field, but my experience is needed here, at this table. No offense was meant, Your Grace, but at a time when we must show strength. Lord Larys. I agree, Your Grace. It must be Prince Aemond.

What would it say if in response to Rhaenyra's crowning we raised up a woman of our own? That the hand speaks with the king's voice, Ser Criston. What say you? Aemond is the next in line. It must be him.

It must be him. What do you think is going through Allison's head in this scene? I think shock, surprise, piercing feeling of betrayal. And I think we've all been in a situation like that where something devastating happens and you're having to just eat it.

Because you're in a setting where you can't deal with that emotion right then. I completely agree with everything you said. I think there's probably also some dread. Like, I could totally see her in that moment having like a, oh, fuck. Like, they're right. Of course, she can't be queen in this situation. She's been fighting on the wrong side the whole time. It's kind of what I picture is going through her head. And then I thought that...

the scene that you're talking about where they kind of zoom in on her and the audio gets really muffled behind her is her just like fully dissociating. And I thought it was so good. So it's like, of course that's, you know, like, oh, I would be livid if I were her. Yeah. I think you put your finger on something really important, which is perhaps Alison is realizing in that moment that what she is proposing is

would have flown on the other side of it. You're fighting on the... You're on the wrong side if that's what you're proposing. Yeah. That's not going to fly on this side. If that's what you believe, this is not what they believe. That's kind of the whole point. Yeah. As Alicent is disassociating...

You hear Amon's first orders as king. His first really substantive move is, okay, seal the gates. People are trying to leave the capital because it's a target of war and there's no food here and prices are really high. Things are getting very, very bad. Seal the gates. Don't let anybody leave. What do we think of this plan?

I was really surprised by that. I don't, what is the advantage to them to keep small folk there? Like if they want to leave, couldn't you just let them leave? Is it because you need to be able to tax bodies? Yeah, it's like the, you know, Eamon's not cooking his dinner. Eamon's not washing the clothes. Eamon is not making the weapons. Eamon is not feeding the horses and the dragons. You know, like this is the engine of economic activity. We can't let them leave.

Okay. Fair, fair, fair. I mean, that sucks. I'm looking forward to a riot. Yeah. I mean, it feels like it's coming, right? Yeah. I,

I think that on the one hand, he had to do it. On the other hand, there had to be a softer version of this where you raise the living standards and don't just shut the gates, which is absolutely sure to provoke panic on the streets as a mere thing that it has. Inevitability. Yeah. Let's go over to Team Black on Dragonstone where...

I think fairly naturally, the reactions to the debacle at Rook's Rest and the loss of their most battle-ready dragon and an important member of the group, Rhaenys Targaryen, are not good. Alfred Broome is really going at Rhaenyra. Yeah, Alfred's pissed. I could never doubt your capability or your quickness of mind.

Gagged him with that one. I thought that was a great point. I mean, come on. The whole fair sex thing, too, is like, really, dude? Like, you can't come up with any other reason? Like, he's pretty much like, no, I like you. I just have a problem with women is essentially how that conversation reads to me.

One of my favorite scenes in the episode is when Rhaenyra and Mysaria have their meeting about intelligence and what to do. But yeah, I found it very vulnerable. And it really hit me that speech by Rhaenyra talking about how she wasn't trained. Viserys didn't put a sword in her hand. But at the same time, he had her in small council meetings as his cupbearer. She got to

be privy to these really important high-level conversations. Do you think that influences her leadership style at all? Did that contribute anything to her ability to lead? I think it has to. I mean, I think in a lot of ways it probably speaks to Viserys as a leader as well. He never wanted battle. He tried to avoid it at all costs. And sure, maybe if Rhaenyra had been a boy, I imagine it would be different. But

It is interesting just thinking about Viserys himself and how he was always more interested in sort of diplomatic relations than war anyway, in which case being in the small council meetings is super useful. So is learning all of the houses and who's involved and how, because especially when you're trying to figure out who you can get on your team and who's willing to align with you and what sort of compromises and deals you have to make to get there,

Like, that soft power that she does have and that she has wielded pretty well so far. Yeah, and it was really an episode about Rhaenyra saying, okay, there's been missteps. I've made mistakes. But, you know, okay, how do I fix this now? Meanwhile, Team Black is...

you know, shattered at the loss of Rhaenys and trying to figure out how to put one foot in front of the other. Yes. No one, of course, is more devastated than Corlys, who loses his real partner in this world. Rhaenyra tries to hand him an olive branch by naming him as her hand. Let's listen to that clip between Corlys and Bela. Rhaenys was not only your wife, not a thing to be taken from you.

She was a Targaryen princess, the queen who never was, and she flew to Rook's Rest of her own will in defense of her kin. And she died? She died as she would have wished to die, with honor, in dragonfire, the way my mother chose and the way I myself wished to meet my end. I grieve my grandmother who loved me, but I carry her on with me. I will see Rhaenyra ascend the Iron Throne as Rhaenys wished, as Rhaenys herself should have. You yourself may do as you see fit.

Granddaughter, I would make you my heir. I am blood and fire. Driftmark must pass to salt and sea. Our girl Bela stepping up. I love that scene. I love it. I loved it too. And I think it spoke so highly of her. And I think it's a really solid argument too. Like, okay, well, Rhaenys died for this. And she did it knowing what it would mean. She fought for this knowing what she was fighting for. She didn't get hoodwinked into this.

So are you going to honor that or are you going to run away like you've done many, many, many times before? Go off on your sailing expeditions. I thought that was really, really strong. And that other sound I think you heard was Alan and Adam rubbing their hands together going, here we go, baby. We're going to – we've got an opening. Yeah.

Amazing. So what do you think of Rhaenyra's choice to finally name someone as Hand and to choose Corlys?

I think it's a great choice. Yeah.

you know, tremendously, tremendously wealthy through his travels. And he is experienced at war, both on sea and on land. Yeah, that's huge. So they need that right now. Yeah. What do you think of her choice? I think it's great, too. I think it's also, like, he's obviously very well-respected, which is really important in that role and I think could only help bolster Rhaenyra's positions.

You know, this episode is so much about delegating. Yes, I had that same thought. What it means to delegate, how important that is to leadership. I think Raniera made her mistakes early on were so much about the mistakes that new leaders often make, which is they try to do everything. I got to do everything. I seem to be doing this. I have to earn this seat. And really what she needed to do was bring people into her trust and then she's doing it now is so important. And...

And it's also like the seed of a lot of the problems we see here, which is when you delegate, you kind of have to take the good with the bad. So we'll see what happens. I mean, she delegated to Rhaena, who went to the Vale and is now having to make decisions on her own there. Yeah. You promised the Queen Rhaenyra 15,000 swords. In return for protection, a dragon. Then she has exceeded your terms. She sent two, both still wet from the egg. I have hunting hounds that are more fearsome.

They are dragons nonetheless. I do not recall you specifying the size of the beast in your request. Will you go with me, child? When your bread and shelter now depend on my pleasure. Kind of a bitch. I mean, necessarily so, right? I mean, she's got a huge response. I get it. Like, hey, you've got this impregnable castle that's high up in the mountains. And of course, the only thing we'd be vulnerable to is dragons. And so she wants protections against the dragons if she's going to come over to anybody's

And you know what? I get the annoyance if I'm her. I said dragons, and I guess we should have gone into the, had my lawyers get into the fine print, adult dragons. Yep. Dinner's at six, bitch.

That's right. And so it's up to Reyna now to like, okay, smooth things out. Yeah, that's a lot of pressure on Reyna. Greta, we get our first look at the infamous Frey family in House of the Dragon. Your thoughts on being back with the Freys and the twins? Yeah, so you're saying- Side of the Red Wedding. Because of course, yes, we knew them well in Game of Thrones. Yes.

Man, what an odd-looking couple, huh? Forrest and Lady Frey driving a hard bargain, as they always do. Yes, that's true. Yeah, I mean, I thought they held their own really well. It is their raison d'etre is...

We control this crossing, and if you want to get across, you got a deal. And they made a deal. Shouts to them. Like, you know, geographically, it's just super important because otherwise, when you come down, if you want to go to King's Landing, you have to go all the way around, like, to the west. And then loop all the way around and get to King's Landing. If you can come down and cross at the Twins, it's a straight shot to the Riverlands, and then you turn left and you're at King's Landing.

So, yeah. What do you think? I mean, that was really something that Jace just thought of on his own, the whole, like, oh, we should go talk to them because then we can get the Greybeards coming through with our friend Craig and Stark and, like, actually get those guys to King's Landing much faster. It makes sense to you then, right? I think it's a really smart idea and something that kind of, it needed to happen because you know it's like you're talking, you probably cut

months off of the arrival of the Greybeards to the battle. So super important. Great thought by Jace. Great move by him. Nice. Do you want to talk about Daemon in the Blackwoods where he's like, go commit war crimes? Yeah. Let's go see what Daemon's up to at Harrenhal with Lord Blackwood. I did not think they would be so eager to die. They made their choice. You should have indulged them. I need them alive. I came here to raise swords, not corpses.

But now you see what my house has known for generations. They are pig-headed, intransigent. They would rather burn than succumb. Exactly the kind of men I need. So I have to say, I did not realize that this was allowing war crimes. I didn't know what that meant, the whole, like, there are things we can't do. Yeah, it's clear from the scenes that follow that what... Yes. He raided Stonehenge, the seat of the Brackens, before...

Lord Bracken could return home and took captive their loved ones and family members in order to force them to come to heal. And also in the, in doing so, it seems like committed some terrible atrocities. I guess the question is Damon cool with it now. You know, it's interesting. I think Damon is, uh,

I mean, he clearly ordered it. So in a sense, yes, right. He is cool with it. But he did seem surprised also, don't you think, when they called him out on it? I think he was. And I think for this reason, I think Damon rightly says, well, this is what it is.

You guys wanted to – everyone wants to fight a war, wants to fight for their beliefs, wants to fight for the thing they think is morally correct. And when you do that, your forces who are fighting for what's quote-unquote right will also go into villages and commit terrible atrocities. That will happen. It will happen because –

You don't have any control. There's no command and control. We don't, we're taking people and forcing them to fight in a certain way. Like we're asking people to give up their most able-bodied men and to fight for us. And when we do that,

We're not going to be able to have any control over what they do when we loose them on the enemy. That's just the nature of this. And so I think Damon is surprised because he's like, really, did you think war was like clean? Did you think that the tools at hand were nice? Do you think there's also a part of Damon that's surprised to be held accountable? Yeah.

In this context? I think that there's that. I think that there's also that. Like, how dare you call me out for doing what I had to do, you know? Yeah. Speaking of that, let's go to that interesting conversation between Damon and Alice Rivers in Harrenhal. I'll cross you no further. I'm sure your tactics are, after all, approved by the Queen. She cannot succeed, Alice. Even if I willed it to be so. The people who support her will not be led by her. They look to a man for strength. Who's better suited to it? The Hightowers with their scheming?

It's a pity, don't you think, that you never knew your mother? I love her so much. Oop! Just the best. Oop! Well, so much to get into here. Um...

Or not. Alyssa Targaryen, sister and wife of Baelon, their father, the father of Viserys and Daemon. It was such a weird scene. I mean, it's very clear that Daemon is reflecting on all of the relationships he did and did not have with many women in his life, right? Yeah. I think that that's, I think his family is...

is on his mind at the moment. Yeah, interesting dream. I wonder what it means, but I think what it means on some level is Damon's giving himself away

permission to rule and permission to give in to his belief that he would have been the better king than Viserys. I think you are totally right, though. I mean, like, the Oedipus of it all, you kind of can't ignore that in a scene like this, right? Because it's like, that's the story, though, right? Yeah. I now, I believe what Daemon says at this point. You know, previous to this, I thought, well, Daemon is trying to make things right. Yeah. Yeah.

to Rhaenyra because he messed up. And now I do wonder if Daemon is thinking, Rhaenyra doesn't, she's dithering. She doesn't have it. And I have to do it. I have come around to believing that he really wants to rule. And I think he wants to rule because he feels he's taken Rhaenyra's measure and that she's not ready for this.

Yes, I completely agree. And I think it is really interesting. I think this was such a episode of like seeing where the players are on the board and seeing what moves are happening. And it's interesting to see like a splinter off of Team Black in a way, right? Because now it's like, is it Damon versus Rhaenyra versus Aemond? Meanwhile, Rhaenyra is...

starting to, one, delegate, which is very important. Yes. And two, kind of like form a plan. Let's play that conversation between Rhaenyra and Jace. There are those of our line who never ruled. Those who married into other noble houses. Their children born with other names. A generation ago or more, blood would be thin. And yet... The dragon will only accept a dragon lord to ride it. Also say the histories...

Wow. What'd you make of this? I love it. I want a spinoff series now that's just like kids learning how to ride dragons, honestly. Mm-hmm.

I think we may see something like that. I think it's a really important idea that Jace has proposed. And I think it could swing the war. It's absolutely a necessity, as we talked about. The blacks in particular cannot keep sending very, very important people out to war to potentially get slain. Especially without Damon. At the same time, you do also run the risk of weakening the Targaryen mystique if you put...

A Tarly or a Malister on a dragon. Don't you also say, well, gosh, are the Targaryens as special as we thought? That is really interesting. Yeah. It's like, oh, turns out there's a lot more wiggle room than we had been told. Yeah.

Well, the chess pieces are getting moved around on both sides. And today we got to talk to the new prince in charge over in King's Landing, Ewan Mitchell, who plays the very calculating, very ruthless Eamon One-Eye, our Prince Regent. Let's go listen to that conversation. ♪

We are so excited to welcome Ewan Mitchell to the podcast today. Ewan, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. It's been so fun watching Eamon come to the center of the story this season. And it's striking to me how he's so very still until he isn't. And we're really seeing that action, that explosive side of his personality now. What's your approach to playing Eamon?

Well, that's, yeah, I think, you know, so much of those opening episodes, you very much do see an Aemond who is, he's operating from the peripheries, you know, he's working from the sidelines. You get a sense that him and Cole are very much manipulating the council to make their ends meet and how they envision the war going forward.

And that's one of the things that I love about Eamon is that ambiguity. You don't know what is happening behind his eye. You know, he could be looking at someone thinking about how he wants to take them on a date, cook them a nice meal, or he could be looking at someone...

thinking he'll cook them and take vagar on a date you don't know what he's thinking but you do know that he is thinking he's not just your one-dimensional psychopath sociopath there are cogs turning and it is i i think there is a fear in the unknown with amand um and i do i also feel like if you do hold back and you save those moments those explosive moments it makes them all the more scarier

Could you talk more about the physicality of Amon? There's such presence there, even if he's not speaking. I was really struck by the scene in which Cole is returning to the city after the battle of Rook's Rest and Alicent and Amon are watching from the roof of the Red Keep, and there's...

He's got his arms spread and he's watching and there's an ominous presence. I think in that moment he's just trying to impress his mum. He's just saying like, look at me. I'm the daddy now of this family. I'm taking over. Yeah, there was something I found interesting in 80s horror icons. You know, the likes of Mike Myers, the Creeper from Jeepers Creepers. You know, Caterpillars.

characters that don't necessarily say a lot but just through their physicality you you get this impending sense of doom you know this idea of inevitability no matter how slow those guys walk they always catch up with jamie lee curtis and that was something that i i wanted to i wanted to bring to amand as well he he he does possess this other world kind of

Yes, I feel like relish is a word I think about a lot when I see you on screen just because it seems like you're really relishing playing the role.

I love him, yeah. Eamon is named Prince Regent in episode five. Talk to us about filming that scene. When they take over the council table. Yeah. Yeah. And he sits in the big chair. He sits in the big boy chair. Yeah. I love that scene because he doesn't say anything, you know, going back to that silence. He doesn't say anything for the whole scene. It's like you say, he's got it all worked out. And in that moment, I think he's just sitting back and he's waiting for the inevitable. He's waiting for them to name him Prince.

as the next in line to appoint him Prince Regent. And, you know, from that walk from the Master of Ships seat to the King's seat, it changes instantaneously. He sees them in a different light. Who's going to be useful for his vision? Who's going to be rendered irrelevant? That scene is so striking also because we see the rejection from Alison's point of view,

which is haunting. I'd love to hear what it was like to talk through that scene with Olivia Cooke, who plays Alicent. Every time I see Alicent Livcook in a scene, I always picture Eamon and Alicent sitting on a Dornish beach somewhere, just sipping on pina coladas, far from war. Eamon's become the war hero, and he can finally, you know, attain the affection that he's wanted so long from his mom, you know, and

Someone asked me the other day whether or not I thought that Eamon had mummy issues and I don't think he has mummy issues so much as he just wanted to be loved by his mum a little bit more and you know you need that unconditional love growing up to develop a balanced view of yourself and Eamon was denied of that and so he had to find that affection somewhere else. He found it in a

In a parallel in Vhagar, so to speak, an older she-dragon. He found it in the Madame that you meet in episode 9 of season 1. If a child is not embraced by the village, they will burn it down to feel its warmth. And Aemond, he's going to look for validation and ultimately just attention through other means now, through war. What's it like acting with the eyepatch?

Oh, I love it. It's my best. It's my favorite prop. But everything it means, everything it represents, you know, it's a tragedy that Aemond wears as well as his Targaryen blacks. It's all super informative. And also, you know, Shakespeare said, the eyes are the windows to the soul. And so what does it mean to only possess one of them? And in the other eye socket, you've got a sapphire. You know, do you have to compensate through physicality and beauty?

You know, going back to the way Aemond walks, he inhabits as much space as possible when he walks into a room for as long as possible. And so it's all super informative. Let's talk about Rook's Rest for a second.

In episode four, of course, the plan is to lure in one of the Black Dragons and then have Vhagar pounce. What is Aemond thinking when he sees his brother fly overhead? I think that's a good question. You know, Aemond, he's an ambiguous person. You don't necessarily know what he's thinking. In that moment, he kind of realizes, okay, let me just sit back. Let me reassess.

And then, um, Amon, he joins the party later on and it's, it's that it raises the question of whether or not Amon purposefully meant to burn Rainice and Aegon as a collective on purpose or, um,

you know, whether or not Aegon was just in the way and he was just a collateral damage in that skirmish, which I find interesting. It certainly is. What do you think? Do you think he was intentionally like... I think he wanted to see... I think he was genuinely interested in how his brother would do. And then I think when he joined in, it was kind of like, well...

You're in the way. You're there. Have a little bit of this. You know, you're there. And this is what battle is like. Let's see how you do. For sure. Yeah, it seems to me like...

Egon is probably one of those kids who didn't have to suffer consequences of actions very often. So I could totally see Eamon just being like, yeah, let's see what he brings upon himself in this situation. Yeah. I always liken Eamon as the studious kid who keeps his head down in class, does all the work, but then he never gets the attention that the teacher gives to him.

to the loud kid who doesn't do his work. Well, I loved that council scene where Amon speaks to Valyrian. And it's just so clear that like, oh yeah, no, this dude is actually much, like he checks many more boxes for like being what a king is supposed to be in this world.

Yeah. I find that scene incredibly fascinating because in a way it's very merciful because he's saying, you know, what he's saying in High Valerian, it's almost so Aegon can save face. It's like no one else in the room understands that I'm, you know, I'm putting you down in this moment. Only me and you do.

Yeah, it's merciful in a sense. Heyman is merciful. It's merciful, but it's also such a power play. Yeah, such a power play. And then he kind of stumbles on his response, which I love. So good.

I'd love to talk about a scene from earlier in the season as well. We get to see Eamon in the arms of Madame Sylvie, and this scene adds so much emotional depth to Eamon as a character, and I was really struck by the moment where Eamon admits, you know, I feel bad what happened to little Luke. I feel sorry for that. Talk to us about that scene. Yeah, I think it's a very rare glimpse into Eamon's life.

vulnerability. He is wholly vulnerable in that moment. He's not wearing any armor. He's not brandishing the weapons you usually see him with. And it's quite shocking because that's something that you don't expect of Eamon either. You see him in the arms of the Madame Sylvie. And talking about surrogate mothers, he found that surrogate mother in the Madame and he's

He's able to open up with her, unlike a lot of the other characters in the show, and she brings a different perspective out of him, which I find super fascinating. But it is an opportunity to show, you know, audience members that there is this little kid underneath the surface. I would love to talk more, too, about Eamon's relationship with Vhagar, because I think that's a really interesting one, too. I would love to know...

How you're thinking of, I mean, you mentioned, you know, Vhagar also being an older woman. Yeah. Yeah, they're a power couple, him and Vhagar. But yeah, I mean, it was apparent reading the scripts in episodes six and seven, seeing this young, neglected, bullied boy. You mean of season one? In season one, yes. You know, he was different and he was bullied for being different. You know, there's this dynamic that as the person grows, so does the hatchling.

You know, there's almost this symbiotic connection as they both grow that Aemond was denied of. And so you've got the largest, oldest, baddest dragon in the known world in Vhagar, who's so enormous that she can't fit within the confines of any castle wall and...

That's something that Aemond can identify with. You know, he doesn't fit in anywhere either. And so he's able to relate to her in a way that maybe other characters couldn't. I love that moment in episode seven when he claims Vhagar because not only does he find his voice for the first time, but he also makes a friend. And I also think she's evidence of his drive, you know, proof of his courage that I think is certainly...

one of the redeeming qualities of Eamon and was certainly something that I carried with me shooting season two, always having that little kid who stood in the face of adversity just resting and not forgetting that. What about Eamon's relationship with his brother Aegon? Aegon is, after the Battle of Rook's Rest, is severely wounded.

Aemond may or may not have had some kind of role in that. How is he feeling now about his brother? I think maybe the same as before. He always felt like Aegon was inferior to him, even though Aemond was the second son and it is the duty of the second son to fight the war.

He always knew that he was going to play attack dog, but he always felt like Aegon lacked the perseverance from the get-go. Whilst Aemond was in the Red Keep yard training with Criston Cole day in, day out, Aegon was in some sleazy corner in Flea Bottom, you know, up to no good. And he very much sees this moment to step up and claim what his brother had taken for granted, or at least what he thinks his brother takes for granted.

What do you think about the relationship between Amand and Helena? It's one we don't see a lot of, or at least haven't so far. But in this episode, she does ask him if it was worth the price, which I thought is a really interesting moment.

Mm-hmm. For sure. I mean, you know, they both share a kinship in that they were the kids on the side of the family that were neglected. It raises the question of whether or not, you know, it is worth it what Eamon has done. Yeah. So what do you think about that? Do you think it's worth it? Or does Eamon think it's worth it? Eamon probably, yes. Yes. Yeah.

But it raises the question of what Aemond wants. You see him standing at the foot of the Iron Throne and I think Aemond recognizes that he who sits on the Iron Throne also becomes the most wanted man in Westeros. And Aemond, he's got a pretty big target painted on his back already. Maybe he doesn't want the smoke. When Helena asks about the price, what does Aemond...

perceive that as meaning? What does he feel that the price was? I think everything he lost. He lost his brother in that moment. He's probably most likely lost the bond that he kind of craved he had with his mother. You know, the realm is undoubtedly going to see him in a different light and also the people around him. You know, I think it goes back to that kind of

I don't want to speak too much on what Eamon wants because I do want to leave a little bit of mystery out there but I think one of the things that he wants is his mum. He wants that love and affection from his mother.

And I love the quote in Michael Mann's Heat. Robert De Niro's character says something like, don't get attached to someone you're not prepared to walk out on in 30 seconds flat when you feel the heat around the corner. And that's the code that his character lives by. That's what allows him to maneuver this world without getting caught by Al Pacino and the police. And Eamon, he has a very similar code in that he doesn't want to be caught

as hurt as he was as a kid ever again that's why he's so easily able to walk out on the madame in episode three it's like the facade comes up you're gone to me now the word weak isn't in eamon's vocabulary so long as he is seen as like this nigh unkillable um almost terminator-esque horror icon figure

You know, it's all going to plan. And I think Alison, in a sense, challenges that code. I think she is the kryptonite. But, you know, sometimes you have to push the people you love the most away a little bit to kind of do what you want to do. Eamon wants to be the war hero. He wants this war to finish up so he can have that pina colada with his mum on the Dornish beach. I do like that image very much.

It seems to me, too, I think how I interpreted that idea of it being worth the price is Amon kind of crossing another line to become more ruthless in a way that's like, at what point can you actually not turn back anymore? Yeah.

I think maybe there is no turning back. I like to think at the end of season one in the skies above Storm's End, after what he did there to his nephew Luke and his mount Arrax, like there was no going back then. He's changed things forever. He's kickstarted the domino effect that will lead to the Dance of the Dragons. Whereas what happens in episode four in the skies above Rook's Rest, it's a lot more intentional.

I think if there was no going back before, there certainly is no way to go back now. Yeah. Yes, that is clear. Well, Ewan, thank you so much for talking with us. This was a real pleasure. I know. Thank you so much, Greta. Thank you, Jason. Wow, what a cool conversation, Ewan Mitchell.

I love how much he has thought through, like, the precise insanity and, like, lethality of this character. It's so good. And also, I mean, Jason, I think we both knew how committed this dude was when we asked him to do a sound check before we started recording, and he just started, like, rattling off sentences in high valyrian. He was like, oh, okay, we're doing this. Yeah, that was very, very cool. Yeah.

Well, up next, we've got a conversation with director Claire Kilner. Let's go listen to that conversation. We are very happy to welcome director Claire Kilner back to the podcast today. Thank you so much for being with us, Claire. Thank you. It's good to be here. This season has been...

for the role that the small folk play in the story. And we open with that really striking scene of Melisa's head being dragged through the streets of King's Landing and the citizens of the city reacting to it. How do you approach a scene like this with so many background actors and characters

How do you go about shooting something like this? I mean, it's a huge undertaking with so many people feeding into it. You know, we start with what is the mood of the scene. Like, there's been this horrendous war and, you know, they're coming back, bringing what seems to be the prize of war, but soon realizes people are shocked and disgusted by it. It's like killing a god, basically.

And, you know, people are beginning to feel hopeless and beginning to feel the vacuum, the power vacuum in the politics of their world. So, you know, we shot this scene in Trujillo and Caceres and Leavesden. So one of the first things we had to do was work out how long this procession was, how many horses, how many people, how big is the sort of the truck that carries

that carries Melisse's head. How wide is the head? Because some of the streets are really narrow, you know? So we had this very big blue head with all these sort of things hanging off it. So we had to measure everything. And then when we were in Leavesden, before we even went to Spain, we lined it up like on a little...

you know, with little toy cars and things, you know, on our desks to sort of get a sense of it. Then when Leavesden, we went out and we marked out how long is a horse, how, you know, and we marked out the length of the parade.

And then we had to work out, for example, in the squares in Caceres, they're not very big. So if you do one pass where the parade goes through, how do you turn the horses around, turn the big head around to then start the parade again? Because that's not easy. And so sometimes you might just go with half the parade or the end of the parade and film from the middle so you don't need to turn around the front. So it's an incredible puzzle.

There's so many elements you have to factor in. And then when you're shooting, even more things happen that you couldn't possibly imagine. Things just have a habit of sort of going a little bit not as planned. So you have to be agile and be able to

you know, just move with how things happen on the day as well. That's such a fascinating combination of like trying to plan as many minute details as absolutely possible, but still being open to the fact that like anything could happen at any moment and being able to roll with that too. That's my job. Yeah.

So you mentioned that the small folk do not react well to seeing this dragon being paraded through town. Why do you think the Greens misjudged what the small folk would think so intensely?

I mean, I don't know. You'd have to ask them. I mean, you know, I don't, you know, I don't know. I think when people are fighting, you know, their gut and desire for revenge overrules their heart and thoughts.

finer thinking and intelligence and thinking about the bigger picture and not just themselves. And there's this macho-less like, kill, kill, look, triumph, look what we've got, you know? And they're not thinking, putting themselves in the shoes of others. What do you think the small folks feeling about the war was before this? And what do you, before this parade? And what do you think it is like after? You know, I think the small folk, I just think of it

Like myself, like we, you know, we just want to live, go about our lives and have enough food on the table and be able to go for a walk, fall in love and have friends. And, you know, just those details of life you want to be able to have freedom to enjoy. And I think that's all people really want. And they just get sort of sucked into politics and, you

There's always nefarious people seeking power, and sometimes, you know, we're blinded by that. That makes sense. So you also directed episode two in this season, which also involved a procession. Of course, that one was...

Devastating in a different way, we'll say. That's when Alison and Helena ride along as someone is announcing the horrific beheading of Helena and Egon's son. They are different vibes, but they're both, I mean, very aggressive propaganda moves. How did your approach differ between those two processions? I mean, we shot them very much kind of roundabout the same time. Mm-hmm.

So it was interesting. And, you know, just in terms of physical production, we approached them in the same way. The thing about the parade was I just thought, I don't know, it just felt so awful how it, you know, to feel to be on display when you're grieving physically.

And I don't know, it reminded me, you know, when Princess Diana died in England and her sons had to walk behind in the funeral parade. And I don't know, it made me think of that. And I did a bit of research. And, you know, it was also in terms of thinking of Helena's distress. And, you know, Fia is such an incredible actress. She sort of really found a perfect tone for it.

I wanted to sort of build up this sort of distress. So I added the idea that there was this stone in the ground and the carriage got stuck. And so everyone started trying to

and the baby's head was sort of rocking around because I wanted to like add, sort of just build up the tension. And I guess it was feeling like if, for example, you were the king or queen or a famous actor or something, a star, and you were just traveling through somewhere and then suddenly you couldn't get out, please,

like wanting to come and touch you and talk to you and, you know, offer their love, but it could be extremely overwhelming as well. So I like the idea that they would be stuck and that would amp up the fear and distress. Returning to episode five,

there's that really amazing scene in which Alison is passed over for the Regent position. It's given to Amon. And I really love the, I love the approach here because, you know, the sound goes far away. We focus on her. You can still hear the deliberations as Amon goes through his first moves sitting in the big chair, but we really get it from Alison's point of view and that, and,

it's so affecting how she's trying to hold it together. I think everybody's experienced a moment like this where you're trying to hold it together. You're emotionally devastated, but you can't break down here.

Tell us about how you did that. I mean, Olivia Cooke is such an incredible actress and she brings so much sort of trembling emotion to whatever she does. And she never overplays it as well. It's just beautifully placed. And I just felt so badly for her in this scene, you know, for her character. I just felt it so deeply. You know, she's surrounded by idiots. You know, I mean...

Whenever I'm directing an actor, I always sort of stand behind the actor for a moment and look at everyone around the table and try and imagine what it would feel like to be that person. So, you know, because we're talking about her, you know, talking about Eamon, I might say something different, but

But because we're talking about her, it just felt like she was trying to be measured, trying to get a grip, trying to lead. And nobody is listening to her because she's a woman and because they all have their other alliances and secret sort of things.

and ideas of what they're going to do. I really love the moment as well when Laris sort of goes behind her back and shoots a look to Cole because it just...

just really struck me as a sort of like backstabbing, horrible moment, which really floors her and makes her realize how alone she is. And what I like about Olivia did is that it takes a moment for all this to land. And then when I saw Olivia's performance, I was like, we have to just stay on her for this moment.

whole section. Because, you know, of course, what the others are saying is important, but those are facts. And what we really want to deal with is the emotional, just the devastation that is hitting her. And that's so interesting with a show like this, because there are so many intricate political plays and details that

that the audience needs to hear, but how do you get that and also get into their hearts and minds and souls and what's really going on behind all of those words?

It seems to me also that that's the scene where Alison realizes that she's on the wrong side to a certain extent. You know what I mean? Like, the argument that, like, no, we can't have a queen, that's kind of the whole point is undeniable. But it's one that she had not, it seems to me anyway, like, fully considered until that moment. Yeah.

I think there's this huge shift happening with Alison from this point forwards. Something is shifting in her, like, belief in the system is dying. Mm-hmm. I would love to switch to Aegon because he's in such a weird state in this episode. You know, what were conversations like with Tom Glen Kearney about how to approach that?

I mean, Tom Glincarney is an incredible actor. It's incredible how he managed to communicate through all that, you know, makeup and his charred body and his charred head and the armour. I mean, you know, Tom comes in and he...

starts doing this rasping breath that, you know, I had no clue he was going to do. And as soon as he does that, it's just, oh my God, poor Tom, you know, had to be in, you know, hair and makeup. I don't know.

I guess, like for five hours before. Oh my gosh. Oh wow. And then he comes on set and has to lie there still. We can't hardly move him because as soon as we move him, everything sort of falls apart. You know, things, the blood starts seeping and everything starts going wrong. So he...

You know, I mean, he must be a good meditator or something because he lies there the full day having people pinch and crawl and touch, you know. And then as soon as we say action, he brings it. Yeah, it's absolutely incredible. That's amazing. When you're shooting something like that with a lot of prosthetics and a lot of, you know, body horror elements...

How do you balance, you know, realism with, oh, that's too gross. I mean, the gross, the better, as far as I'm concerned. There it is. I mean, you know, when do you get a chance to do something like that? I mean, you know...

A burnt body, you know. I mean, it was just, you know, the thing is you read it on the page and you imagine it. Yeah. And then people start bringing, you know, you start looking at the armour. You have to look at how you could take the armour, how you would be able to take the armour apart or not, how it would get stuck. And people, you know, again, like people,

The sounds, you know, as you pull the bit apart and away. Amazing. You know, the pus that's built up over, you know, I think it was like, I can't remember how long it was that they'd been traveling for, but at least 10 days, I think. You know, the dirt that's got in there, how they would have tried to protect the body. Cleaner. All of these. Stop. The smell. So, yeah, yeah, I'm into it. Yeah.

Let's go to Heron Hall, where there's this wonderful, surrealistic, almost horror element that is happening with Damon's various visions in Heron Hall and his kind of like developing interactions with Alice Rivers. Talk to us about approaching filming from that location. I mean, you know, we walked into Heron Hall and I couldn't,

I just took my breath away. It's very important as a director when you walk into a place, into a space, like your first feelings. And I felt like this was like, I felt like Alice in Wonderland or something. The table in the middle of Harrenhal was just so ginormous. It makes you feel really tiny. And, you know, the walls are so tall. It's so high. Yeah.

And these incredible murals, you know, etchings and paintings and the colors were incredible, the textures of the walls. There was like this water running down through the walls where there was like places where there wasn't a roof and things like that.

It was like, it was a maze when you first walk in, you're like, which way is front? Which is back? How do I get out of here? You know, you feel a bit lost. And, you know, I guess it's like, we were just thinking,

how to play with Damon's mind, how it must feel when you've sort of got a little bit of a break with reality and you start seeing things. I mean, everyone, I think, has a few mental health issues at some point in their life. Actually, I had a friend of mine who died just before Christmas, and I went to a place where she often was

And I just, it was like a very sunny day and I just looked up and I thought I saw her and it was someone else. But I had to really look closely because I was just convinced it was her. And it's just, our mind does funny things at certain points in our life when we're dealing with grief or with anxiety or huge shifts and changes. So I guess I sort of draw from that. Yeah.

What is Alice's role in all this? She's such a mysterious figure, and she seems comfortable, almost delighted at the confusion that Damon is experiencing. It's outstanding. She's so much fun to watch. And the performance by Gail is amazing. I mean, yes. Gail just brings in this whole other energy to the show. She seems to be the only one who...

is knowing exactly what's going on or what's about to happen or what has happened. She feels like a time traveler who's, you know, been backwards and forwards and sideways through history. She seems to enjoy it and she seems to sort of at times flirt with him and other times be like a mother to him and other times...

be sort of the voice of his conscience. You know, I think it feels like she's everything to all people. You're right. It does seem like she knows everything, but I also kind of get the vibe that she doesn't really care, you know? Yeah. Which is really fun. Like, she's just above it all.

And, like, the sassiness is just, like, it's just a totally different color palette than what we're seeing in the other characters. It's really fun. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it needs that, you know, because we all secretly want to be like that, don't we? Like, I just don't care what anyone thinks. I'm going to be my full, true self. Mm-hmm. My witchy self. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Um, what is Damon? Where is Damon's mind state right now? He's very, he's very mission. He doesn't have, he doesn't know where he is from minute to minute or if he's awake and dreaming or who he's speaking to. Is it real? But you know, he's very mission focused right now. He's trying to build up this army, trying to get the squabbling river Lords to come onto his side. But to what end to elevate himself, to elevate Raniera, does he even know right now?

I mean, I don't know. I think he wants, just in my personal opinion, I think he wants that throne. I mean, you know, I think he wants the power, but he is also an agent of chaos.

So I think he likes things not sitting right. He likes messing things up. He just needs and craves excitement. But the world is sort of conspiring against him at the moment. It feels like he's trying to do it with his hands tied behind his back.

And I think it, in a way, it's his conscience is sort of coming to haunt him. Harrenhal feels like a magical place that when you walk in, you will have to be forced to face your fears and face who you are. And that might not be pretty in the case of Damon. So, Claire, I really don't want to ask you about...

the sex scene in this episode between Damon and his mother but I also kind of feel like I have to ask you about the sex scene between Damon and his mother I mean actually it was really fun to shoot because we had I'm glad you had fun with it no no we all did we all did because the idea from the very beginning I wanted the scene to be sort of cut back and forth in time and nothing to

to flow in real time. And I felt like it's a poem. So we shot the scene with her saying all the words and without her saying the words. Sometimes she would be, you know, she would be speaking and you would hear what she was saying. Other times she might be speaking, but it would be out of sync, you know, or we just have the words of voiceover. Just wanted to really be able to throw it up in the air in the edit and play with it, you know,

So we all knew that that's what we were going to do going in. So we really wanted to create a sort of artsy poem. That's such a nice way of putting that. Yeah.

Gosh, let's touch on Rhaenyra. It's interesting to note how Rhaenyra, over the last most recent episodes, has really been kind of casting about for good ideas. She's very collaborative with Mysaria. And now we see Jace and her kind of...

you know, hashing out, okay, what do we do? We, we, obviously I can't, as the queen go forward into battle. I don't want to put you Jace on the front lines, but we need dragon riders. And they come up with this crazy idea to kind of look about for new dragon riders. Um,

Talk to us about that scene and Rhaenyra's leadership style in general. I think she's trying to find her leadership style in a way, because again, she is another person who has her hands tied behind her back. And I think at the beginning of that scene, talking with Emma, it was very much about

what's it like to be a mother with a teenage son who goes off and does his own thing? And then you're like, where is he? And you're getting more and more angry. And then you find out that he did a good thing. And, you know, how do you handle that with, you know, with terms of berating them, but also then being proud of them to trying to take matters into their own hands. So it's a complex, but very loving relationship. And it's always...

Fun to direct those scenes, you know, because there's often so much conflict. It's nice when two people are actually kind to each other. And then, you know, they also draw the best out of each other. You know, they're riffing on ideas and bit by bit, they're piecing together something that's possibly, this idea that's possibly going to change everything and everything.

you know, they're going to be able to take some power back. Does Rhaenyra have any doubts? Do you think she doubts at all the path that she's chosen? Yeah, I think she's a fully rounded human being. And if she didn't have doubts, she would be like a power crazy egomaniac. Well, Claire, it's been delightful talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. It's been really great talking to you guys. All right. It's time for our weekly check-ins. First up, Greta, who is winning? Team green or team black?

It's a good question. I think my first reaction is like, are we still calling it Team Black when it seems like Damon is like maybe sort of doing his own thing? Important distinction. I lean yes, because right now the things that he's doing are to the benefit of Team Black. Sure. Raising an army there at Harrenhal, I think would benefit Rhaenyra as well. Well, and it is still the Targaryen banners, so I suppose that's something. Right.

I'm not ready to call it a full-fledged schism, but I think it's worth keeping an eye on right now. Okay. So who do you think is winning? I think I'm still going to say Team Black because the Dragonrider thing I think has a lot of really great potential. And if Damon is going to do what he says, that could help. And I think the alliance with the Frays is huge. So...

That's where I stand. What do you think? I give the edge to Team Green, but I think you're right. There is a comeback perhaps in the making with the deal with the Freys, the looming arrival of the Northmen, the fact that Team Green only has a very depleted Vhagar ready to go into the field and Team Black seemingly is working on a plan to unleash their full stable of dragons. Yeah.

Watch this space. I think the Blacks are looking to gain some momentum and start a comeback. But I think it's edge to Team Green right now. Okay, well, we did skip bingo last week, but there is a square to check off, which is, of course, Dragon Death. Sad trombone. What about the other squares this week, Jason? Well, here's my one takeaway. Okay.

We're waiting on Aemond grinning maniacally. Yeah. And I think if he didn't smile in this episode, he may never smile. He just got named basically king. That's true. That's true. And if he can't be happy now, when is he ever going to be? Should we, can we amend it to Aemond gently smirking? Because I don't think we could call it. Also, I will, I think we could put another tally by surprising romances. Oh, yes.

I hate to say it. Disturbing brunch.

That's all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us next Sunday night right after episode six airs on HBO and Max. If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on X and Instagram. And you can find me at Network, N-E-T-W-3-R-K. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios.

This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jayanne Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannes Brown, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Mahuja, and Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter.

Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and myself. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstad, Alison Cohen, and Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening. Show them your worst. I am your servant, your grace.