Championship Paths, Defending Luka, the Impact of Porzingis, and Draft Chatter
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And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post Podcast. This, Tim McMahon, this is why we do this job. All the trades, all the transactions, all the rumors, all the smokescreens, that's all cool, that's fun, that gets clicks, that gets listens, but this is about the Larry O'Brien trophy. This is about the NBA Finals after almost two months of

Two teams left standing. One team has run a gauntlet to get here. The other team has run something else to get here from the always friendly Eastern Conference. But they are here. They have survived. They have advanced. They have some of the best players in the world. And...

Now we get to watch the chess match at the absolute highest level between the Boston Celtics and the Dallas Mavericks. This is the whole point of all of it. The NBA Finals is here. One team expected to be here. One team was in eighth place at the trade deadline when they remade their roster around Luka Doncic and Kyrie Irving, who they acquired at the last trade deadline before then tanking and getting Derek Lively, who has emerged as...

On some nights, maybe overall, the third best Dallas Maverick, the fourth best Dallas Maverick, something in that ballpark. Tim McMahon, you're not in Boston yet. You're going to be there soon. I'm going to be there soon. Are you ready?

Howdy, partner. I am ready to roll. I would say Nico Harrison certainly earned the contract extension that was announced this morning. You knew that was coming. They decided to go ahead and put ink to paper before the finals got started. And, you know, you nailed it. The Celtics, like it was crazy.

Really championship or bust for them all season, but certainly finals or bust, right? They were the team that best record, best point differential, historically elite point differential all season long. They were penciled in to the finals long, long ago, where the Mavericks, obviously, they've got the superstar, the MVP finalist, perennial All-NBA first-team player, Luka Doncic,

But nobody looked at the Mavericks as a legitimate contender going into this season. There were still a lot of people had questions. Kyrie Lucas at tandem. They clicked, and they scored a lot last year. They clicked all around this year.

But like you said, it wasn't until really that final quarter of the season after the trade deadline and then after J. Kidd needed a little bit of time to kind of figure out how the pieces fit, how the rotation fit the best. It wasn't until that final quarter of the season where the Mavericks really morphed into a legitimate contender. That's when the defense, boom, oh, wow, 20-game stretch. The Mavericks are the number one defense in the league. Kyrie and Luke have been –

You know, one of the best, one of the most dominant clutch duos all season long, you know, a pair of lob threats, all this athleticism around them. And it was a gauntlet to get to the Western Conference. But honestly, they didn't go to a game seven. You know, it was a it was a pretty smooth run for the Mavericks, especially considering that Luka Doncic has been playing almost this entire postseason for

on a sprained knee and there have been glimpses of peak luca but like they got through the clipper series without him at his best most of the oklahoma city series you know he struggled until those last couple of games now minnesota i was gonna say minnesota's like we had enough glimpses that was enough glimpses for like the next 10 years we don't need any more glimpses who's crying now

And then he said the Slovenian word. Like I said, I know a handful of Slovenian words. I know more than I thought I did. And they obviously need that version of Luka going to the finals. If they get that version of Luka, that version of Kyrie that we saw in the Western Conference Finals and really for a lot of these playoffs, then it's going to be a heck of a series. I want to zoom way out before we get to the nitty-gritty.

This is a very exciting – as soon as it became very likely that this was going to be the finals matchup, I got really, really excited. Because A, to me, just thinking about tactics and strategy, any series involving Luka Doncic is immediately like 20% more interesting than the average NBA series because –

It's just everything is going to center around not how do you guard him, but how do you guard him and the whole system that orbits him. And that answer is going to change 20 times within each game. And he's going to have 20 different solutions for all those times that it changes. But also, like, when you think about this series, it feels... It's a weird dissonance where it feels, like, fresh and new and even a little bit surprising. And yet also, like...

Not that surprising. You know, we almost got this same finals two years ago and we have two of the six or seven at worst best players in the NBA. Jason Tatum's 26. Luka Doncic is 25. They've kind of been circling around each other on first team all NBAs and the back half of MVP ballots and all-star teams and all of this. And it sort of seems both...

a new surprising fresh finals and also inevitable that at some point these two teams and these two players would meet at the mountaintop. And then you look back at the sort of journeys and I'm talking like the long-term journeys to get here. And they're really interesting with tons of pivot points and twists and turns, but let's just start here. Like one of the sort of classic questions going into the finals is which team is under more pressure to win the series. Um,

I think the answer, and that's a real thing. Like you can poo poo that away as like a TV friendly question. And we're going to get to the X's and O's. Don't worry. We're going to get to who guards who and what's the matchups and all that. But I do think it's a real thing. I do think the Celtics are indisputably the answer to that question. I do think the media...

covering the series in that macro way can kind of just, just the discourse about it. A team like the Celtics has to learn how to deal with it and bat it away. And you have seen even just recently Joe Missoula completely right. I believe that,

bristling at the Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum coverage, which I just don't really like. Like whose team is it? Is it Jalen Brown's team now? Is it Jason Tatum's team? Who's the guy? And I do think that's a very easy storyline for the media to latch onto. And it can, in the wrong circumstance, create this sort of ill-timed

I think division is too strong of a word, but like tension. Why are we talking about this? And when Perk brought it up on TV last week, he said it's Jalen Brown's team. Jalen Brown's the guy. I said, okay, so what does that mean, Perk? Does that mean...

If Jason Tatum now runs 26 pick and rolls per 100 possessions and Jalen Brown runs 15, which is about accurate, you want to flip that? You want to give the offense to Jalen Brown? Because I think your team is worse. But that's all to be left aside. My point is, I do think the answer is the Celtics just because...

They've won. It's essentially already unprecedented for a team to get this far and win so much and advance so many times in such a short time span and never win the whole thing. The East is never going to open up for them in the postseason like it did this year. Denver's out. Minnesota's out. Dallas is every bit their equal in terms of a championship level team. They've proven that.

But this is pretty close to like you kind of got to win this series and finish the job as a 64-win team with the best point differential and all of that. And just their journey here, six conference finals in eight years, two finals in the last three years.

It's been really interesting how many times they've kind of had to reinvent their team. But is that also your answer? Do you feel that it's also the Celtics? Yes. I mean, listen, again, it was championship or bust for them going into the season. This was a team that had been knocking on the door, couldn't break through with that previous group, made two massive mistakes.

When now trades to go get, although with Porzingis, the fact they got a couple of picks is pretty impressive. But, you know, trades that were about, hey, let's get over the finish line to get Chris Tapps, Porzingis, to get Drew all day. Both of those guys have played huge roles throughout the season. Now, Porzingis, obviously, you talk about an interesting little storyline. Porzingis coming back off of a pretty extended injury absence.

to face of all teams the Dallas Mavericks in the NBA finals is pretty fascinating but no the Celtics have been the team with the most pressure on them all season long that certainly doesn't change in this series you know now the Mavericks I don't want to hear like they're playing with the house money or any of that though because that that's absolutely not the case you know they they aren't

They're not here to get their little participation ribbons. Oh, this is cool, man. Look at. Wow. No, but and you've got Kyrie Irving who admits like there was a time in his career where he did take finals appearances for granted. You know, he asked out of Cleveland after making three straight finals, went to Boston. Obviously, there's a whole big old storyline there. And Kyrie addressed that when we talked to him on a Monday afternoon, but

But, you know, Kyrie and people are snarky and snicker when I say this. Kyrie is absolutely the vocal leader of the Mavericks. And his message throughout the playoffs has been, do not take this for granted. Appreciate this opportunity. You know, let's pour ourselves in this pounce on this phenomenal opportunity that we have.

in front of ourselves. And I tell you, Kyrie going back into that building to face that team that obviously he could have been a part of, opted not to be after a couple of years. That's pretty fascinating stuff as well. Just very briefly on that, the crowd is obviously going to try to get under his skin and bait him into something.

In past matchups, particularly when he was with Brooklyn, he took the bait and, you know, flipping off the crowd, mocking like they're crying, mock doing the wah-wah gesture when he's inbounding the ball, stomping on poor Lucky, who's been stomped on by so many people at this time. Poor Lucky is going to need some medical attention after this series.

I think we're going to see him completely tune it out. I don't think he's going to take the bait. I think he's just going to just hear it and move on. And I think that's the right response. And maybe there will be a point where

other players on the team sort of come to his defense with some bravado or like they go at the crowd. But I think he's going to set the example of this noise is stupid. This noise is silly. We are here to win the championship. We've traded all these picks and swaps going forward. I'm 32. Our star is 25.

We're not playing with house money. They may have more pressure on them because of expectations and previous accomplishments, but there's no guarantee in the Western Conference with the young teams that are rising up, at least one of these aging Lions is going to make some kind of trade this summer to give them one more shot at it. You know, there's no guarantee you're going to get back here next year or the year after as great as Luka is. You mentioned Kyrie and the Celtics, and I just, like, all analysis of the Celtics is so, not all, so much of, like,

The idea that they have disappointed in the postseason recently, it comes down to the last two seasons. Losing the finals to the Warriors in 2022 when Jason Tatum was 24 years old and Jalen Brown was 25 years old. And then losing to the Heat last year in the conference finals and totally letting go of the rope. Like in game three, it was pretty close to an elite team.

kind of throwing in the towel on the court in the middle of a game in the in the conference finals which you've never seen to their credit they rallied and forced the game seven and jason tatum turned his ankle and here we are i kairi is a magnet where we can go backwards and look at sort of why this finals feels both surprising and fresh and inevitable and just sort of the journey of this team so let's just do a few minutes on that so kairi goes to boston

After Boston has been in so many trade rumors by that time for Paul George and Jimmy Butler, mostly right. And I don't know what was exchanged when, but you know, what, what, what was offered when memories are hazy. I've been making calls on this recently, trying to get people to go through their notes. It's unclear, but I'll bet you at some point from 2014 to 2022, uh,

There were moments when if the stars aligned right and if the opposing GM on trade negotiations said the right thing or made the right kind of offer, one of those picks that became Tatum and Brown or one of Tatum and Brown could have been a little bit more in play in some of these trade talks. It's sort of like a road not taken for Boston. There's reporting...

As early as 2015, that one of the Nets picks, neither of which had come to fruition by that point, was in their monster offer to the Charlotte Hornets to acquire the pick that they wanted to use on Justice Winslow in the 2015 draft. Depending on who you talk to, there's a Nets pick in there. So Rhodes not taken. They get Kyrie. They get Hayward in the same summer. Those guys are friends.

The idea of that team was not just those two... That's an interesting friend tandem. Go on. But they were at the time. Remember, Hayward was rumored to go to Cleveland back in the day as a free agency target. They had a prior relationship. And the idea of that team was...

Kyrie was going to be their lure to trade for Anthony Davis when it was time for Anthony Davis to force his way out of the Pelicans. And the sliding doors moment is obviously the basketball tragedy of Gordon Hayward's leg snapping in half in his very first quarter of his very first game as a Boston Celtic.

And you just wonder, like, what if he stays healthy? You know what, though? And then Kyrie wasn't healthy in those playoffs, and you had a rookie Jason Tatum, a sophomore Jalen Brown, lead that team to the Eastern Conference Finals. That was found money. That was a found money Conference Finals run. But you're like, holy moly, like there are two young stars on this roster. Kyrie –

And then, you know, Kyrie's not going to rehash old history at this point. And so, you know, he said the whole story will come out probably after he retires. But it's not like he left Boston because he looked at the roster and said, man, there's no way we can win here. He ultimately he left Boston because he wanted to go form a super team with his good friend. And and.

And choose it, which he did not ultimately get to choose Boston. Although, obviously, if he had sent signals before that trade from Cleveland that I don't want to go here, don't trade for me, I'm going to leave, the trade doesn't happen. My point is, Hayward staying healthy is like an entirely different basketball universe that would be just fascinating to play out. What does it mean for Tatum and Brown's development? What if Kyrie's happy?

What if Kyrie being happy means they actually have a shot at Anthony Davis instead of watching clutch poison the well and direct him to LA who's going out in the Anthony Davis trade Tatum Brown. One of them is definitely, one of them is definitely going out, but my, then that happens. And the warrior series is 2022. The heat series is 2023. We've kind of wiped away the intervening year of 2021. And that's only three years ago. And that's the year when you look at the Celtics and you appreciate the

Not only the road's not taken that I've mentioned, but just the road actually taken to get here. Do you know what the Celtics record was in 2021? I do not recall.

500. Do you remember what happened to them in the playoffs in 2021? Didn't go well. They got obliterated by the Kyrie Irving, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Brooklyn Nets, who played five of their Kyrie Harden, Durant games, five of the 16 total that they ever played in that series. And then Lucky ended up with a black eye. And Jalen Brown was injured in that series. But if you go back to that 2021 team, they had a bunch of young guys who weren't ready.

They had a bunch of free agent signings that went bust, including Tristan Thompson was making like $10 million a year on that team. Kemba Walker, his body was betraying him.

They were 500. And if you talk to people within the Celtics, they look back at that net series. That was a crisis moment for them. They felt this is only three years ago. They're like, we have Tatum and Brown. That's cool. It's awesome. The rest of our roster is totally in flux. This star point guard that we acquired is no longer a star and is kind of rapidly on his way out of the league almost. And we just watched this new East super team.

That may be here a while. Completely destroy us. And in three seasons. That super team's gone. And the entire supporting cast around Tatum and Brown. Has been remade. In one master stroke trade after another. So as much as you want to hit on the Celtics for the 2022 finals. I think the criticism of them for losing that finals is totally unfair. I picked the Warriors to win it.

That was a veteran championship-ready team that had the best player in the series, and the Celtics were super young. And it was not shocking, given how they played in that playoff run until then, that they did not look great in that series, particularly after going up 2-1. Last season is a disaster. They deserve all the criticism for that. But I like to go back and freeze it at that 2021 moment and just think,

And even after that, they could have traded Jalen Brown for Kevin Durant, and they didn't really even want to go too far into those negotiations. I don't know how far they even got from the Nets perspective, if at all. But that team looked like, uh-oh, we got to reinvent ourselves, and they did.

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It's like, oh my God, Tyson Chandler. They let him walk. Then they bring him back. Monte Ellis is involved. Rondo is involved. It's a disaster. They have like a glorious Monte Ellis offense for a hot second. And then they acquire Rondo and it ruins everything. Dirk is looking around like, why is the whole team changing around me every year? And you look at their roster the year before. They got about the Chandler Parsons max contract. Well, I was going to say, did DeAndre tenure?

The DeAndre Jordan kidnapping, Wes Matthews gets four years, 80 million or whatever it is. Chandler Parsons is maxed out. They whiff on Darren Williams and then get him when he's washed up. They whiff on Dwight Howard and never get him. It's like just this. And then they punt on the draft every year, either whiffing picks or trading down or trading out. You look at the roster before they draft Luca. You just look at the 2017-18 Mavs roster and

And it's like, oh my God, it's this motley crew of old guys, random guys, overpaid free agents, not a single young player of any consequence on the team. The team is somehow bad. That Luka trade was an earthquake when it happened.

It's even more of an earthquake when you look at it in retrospect. The team was like going absolutely nowhere until they got him. And then they have the Porzingis detour and now they're here. And you just have to sit back and really zoom way out sometimes and appreciate the journeys, the luck, the skill that is required for two teams to reach this place, even though it seems like inevitable that they would given Luka and Tatum.

The journeys are just so crazy. I mean, you lose Brunson for nothing, but no. You go back to the last championship team, and it was an aging roster, right? You had J. Kidd in his late 30s, Dirks in his, what was he, 32 at the time, I believe. And they traded a bunch of stuff for Kidd. Like you trade your future for your present, and you win a title. That's how it's supposed to go. And by the way, that was a surprising run. That's a team that had been bounced from the first round.

almost every year since that 06 finals round. I believe they got to the second round one time in that span.

So, and then it was, did you read the CBA? You know, Mark Cuban, smartest man in the room. That new CBA came out and he knew more than everybody. He couldn't keep that roster together because you know what? He was the smartest man in the room. He read the CBA and he was the coolest owner ever to exist in the NBA. So free agents were going to flock to play for him. And he was going to be able to sign that Chris Paul, Dwight Howard duo. That was the ultimate plan when they broke up that title team. Well,

Chris Paul got traded to the Clippers, never really hit the free agent market. Dwight Howard got traded to the Lakers. The Mavs did make a run at him.

a year later, but he moseyed on down to Houston instead. Sometimes the moves that you don't make work out pretty well for you, by the way. You remember the Darren Williams thing where Darren Williams was kind of the consolation prize, but then Cuban decided he didn't really want him. So while the Mavs were pitching Darren Williams in New York from free agency, Cuban's on the other coast at Shark Tank, filming Shark Tank. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

And then Dirk was like, I'm never going to watch Shark Tank ever for the rest of my life. I'm so mad. And then Cuban like months later.

You know, it was like I did that because I didn't want the guy. And then years later, signed him for a fraction of the middle. But it was, you know, they were in on Melo. Like it was, you know, they tried to get in on LeBron, you know, before the decision. And it was like swing and miss at star free agent after star free agent after star free agent. Monte Ellis was like a, you know,

Later in free agency, nobody really wants this guy. We'll take him type of thing. And then he was the leading scorer on the best team during that span of team that took the Spurs to seven. Remember when Vince Carter hit the tippy-toe? Oh, yeah. Corner three. To win the game. Then there was the Chandler Parsons-Mark Cuban bromance. You are the chief chronicler of that bromance.

My guy Parsons, and I can't lie, Parsons was really, really good to me. He's a big media star now, and he was on his show recently.

He was talking about how, you know, they don't like KP and Dallas. They're going to boot KP. I'm like, bro, like the KP left on a lot better terms than you did, my man. Well, and in that span, they have they did not win a playoff series again for a long, long time. And I started covering multiple teams in the Western Conference in a desperate attempt to

create some level of job security for myself because I was like, being the beat writer of the mediocre mass for ESPN is not something that's going to allow me to feed my family for years to come. That was, I remember Cuban, that's when the great banning occurred. And Cuban, that is why I was banned because Cuban was mad that I wasn't just the Mavericks beat writer. I was expanding to cover other teams.

and I missed Harrison Barnes' debut. He's involved as a free agent signing that was kind of good, and then it's like, why is he here? What does he do? I don't know. Harrison Barnes was here for years. I missed Harrison Barnes' debut with the Mavs, and Cuban had told me, we had talked off to the side. He told me he was going to do this, and I was like, we had a man-to-man conversation that...

wasn't contentious just i strongly agreed what he was doing i told him you're really putting me in a bad spot and he basically was like i gotta do what i gotta do so i covered the it was the uh

The Grizzlies Timberwolves season opens when I cover because that's when we thought Minnesota was going to be a thing with Wiggins and Towns, you know, that group. And then I was also hopping on the Grizzlies. I woke up the next morning to a Mark Cuban. I mean, it was like an old blog Maverick post in length, but it was an email just ranting and raving about the whole thing, telling us why ESPN was going to be banned from the American Airlines Center.

And I'm telling you, like all the head honchos at Disney and ESPN were on that thing. I just remember looking at that going, oh, Lord have mercy. This ain't good. It wasn't CyberDust? Or was it just a regular email? It was a good old-fashioned regular old email. My point is this. I kept scrolling. But no, that's when that year and then really the next year is when Cuban came to the harsh realization. He would always say –

The worst thing you can do in the NBA is be on a mediocrity treadmill. And he came to the harsh realization of, damn it, that's exactly where we are. And the Mavs kind of half tanked that year, you know, late in the season. And then the next year was a pretty strong tank of Palooza. I mean, to the point where he bragged about it on Dr. J's podcast and got fined 600 grand. And if you remember,

They were lined up, I believe, to be third in the lottery. They were third in the lottery odds, and the Mavericks have literally never moved up in the lottery. And there have been several times where they've moved back, including like the Shaq draft.

They got bumped back a couple of spots. I remember Dirk tweeted something like, of course. And that's why they had to make the trade to move up to get Luka and give up the next year's first-round pick. Ended up being Cam Reddish. I think everybody in Dallas is A-OK with that. And had to have these sons who had just hired Igor Kosciuszkoff

coach on the Slovenian national team who loved Luka and absolutely wanted to coach him, they had to have the sons pass on Luka Doncic. They had to have, you know, a

Balkan legend Vlade Divac, running the Sacramento Kings as the GM, passed on Luka Doncic and blurred out the night of the draft. It was an easy decision. Marvin Bagley III is a better player and a better fit. And he didn't want to –

disrupt the development of De'Aaron Fox. He didn't want another ball handler to take the ball out of De'Aaron Fox's hands, which is, you know, just FYI, the Dallas Mavericks are in the NBA finals with two alpha ball handlers on the same team. Well, and he flat out didn't think Luka was that good. And as accomplished as Luka was in EuroLeague, he was the most accomplished teenage European prospect ever.

ever he had won euro league mvp youngest guy ever to do it he had won uh the early final four mvp he had won a championship year league title an acb title you know the spanish league title with real madrid he had won alongside gordon draga to euro basket title with slovenia you know lighting up some nba players in the process there were a ton of questions there were it was

By no means, everybody I talked to thought he would be a good NBA player. It was a very mixed bag as far as people who really believed he would be a superstar in the NBA. It was a very mixed bag of people who believed he could be a point guard.

In the NBA, well, he's not athletic. There were questions about his work habits, his discipline. Honestly, some of the discipline questions in terms of diet conditioning, those have come to fruition. He's still that damn good. But again, it was so far from a consensus that there had to be three teams to pass on him.

For the Mavericks to be able to get him. Now, the Mavericks had him number one on the board. Donnie Nelson had him number one on the board. Oh, yeah. We forgot in the whole Mavericks dissension into not just mediocrity, into being a bad team. The whole Donnie pounding the table for Giannis and cueing Trayden down. Well, I mentioned Trayden down. Yeah.

But my only point is that sometimes you have to sit back and remember where these teams came from, all the paths that could have led them astray, and yet here they are. And to go back to the finals now, the primary reason that Dallas –

I think has a real chance to win the series against a team that is, even if you just isolate the late season Mavericks versus the Celtics is, is objectively the better team and reports today coming out as we're doing this podcast, that poor Zingas is going to be a go for game one, which is huge for Boston assumed, but still it's nice. I mean, also the fact that he was full blown in practice for the last two or three days. Right. It's like, it's been assumed, but,

But the primary reason I think Dallas has a real chance to win the series is that they have the best guy in the series. And every Dallas Mavericks series, every Luka Doncic series starts with, okay,

What's the defensive answer to Luka Doncic? There is no defensive answer, but what are you going to try? So let's start with the side of the ball, Dallas offense. The first thing I'm going to be looking for is not who guards Luka. I think that's probably going to be Jalen Brown, but it's going to be a bunch of people at the same time. Could be Jace Tatum. Could be Derek White. It's not going to be Derek White. Could be Drew Holiday. Well, I'll tell you, Luka's going to talk today.

I expect him to say Drew Holiday is the best perimeter defender in the NBA. He's said it before. He's said it many times.

Well, Drew Holiday may be on Kyrie Irving and not Luka Doncic. But ultimately, the number one, the first, very first thing I'm going to be looking for, assuming Porzingis starts, is where is Kristaps Porzingis? And I don't think, unless the Celtics throw a curveball for the first couple minutes of game one, which sometimes you see coaches do, like we're not going to, we're going to make you think that we're doing one thing for 90 seconds and we're going to do the thing that we actually are going to do.

I would suspect Porzingis will not be on Daniel Gafford and then Derek Lively when Derek Lively comes into the game three or four minutes into the game. I expect Jason Tatum will be guarding Dallas' rim-running, lob-catching, monster-centered duo. And that Porzingis will either be on P.J. Washington or Derek Jones Jr. This is something the Celtics have done almost every time they've played the Mavericks in the last couple years. Well, I mean, not with Porzingis, but with their other bigs. And the idea is obvious. Luka...

You want to target our centers. The only weakness we have on defense against Luka Doncic, just as it was against Donovan Mitchell, is that we could not switch everything against an apex ball handling superstar because we can't switch our centers onto that guy. He will torch our centers just like Donovan Mitchell torched Al Horford. Luka can torch KP, which is a whole different battle of itself given how things ended in Dallas between...

KP in the franchise. I would say more so given how they started, but yes. So if you want to attack our big guy in the pick and roll, we're not going to let you use your best screener to do it. You're going to have to use a guy who is not your go-to pick and roll screener, whether it's PJ Washington or Derek Jones Jr.,

And we are, at first, to the degree we can, going to play our typical drop-back defense. We're going to count on Jalen Brown getting over PJ Washington's screen or Derek Jones Jr.'s screen. We're going to drop Kristaps Porzingis back. And we're going to make you prod into the paint. KP is going to be retreating. Jalen Brown is going to be on your back. And the reason we're going to live with this bet is...

Over in the dunker spot is going to be Derek Lively or Daniel Gafford. Jason Tatum is going to be there. And effectively, instead of defending the pick and roll two on two, which is what normally a drop back scheme would be against a lob catching center, we're going to be defending a pick and roll that doesn't involve your lob catching center directly three on three. And that is the bet we're making that we're going to crowd your space. And that's going to be, I think, the base chess match. Now,

On the other end of the floor, Gafford and Lively are going to be guarding Porzingis, which means that cross match is going to persist into Dallas's offense a lot. And so Boston won't be able to rejigger the matchups the way it wants. And then Luka can run his normal pick and roll. But even when Boston gets the matchups it wants, the battle is going to be fascinating because if it's PJ Washington screening, he can pop out for threes.

And Luka is so good That that picture that little three on three Matchup against the drop back defense that I'm talking about He's so good That yeah it looks like

It looks like you're kind of like you freeze the possession and it looks like, okay, Dallas is expected points per possession right here are really low by their standards. This is a win for Boston's defense. Well, guess what? Luca turns a whole lot of those wins for you into wins for him because you drop back and Jalen Brown's on his back. He's the best in the world at slowing down, slowing down. Jalen Brown suddenly flies by you. I'm taking a mid range jumper. He's a floater. God,

He knows that you know that he's a floater god and a mid-range god. And he knows how to make one little half pump fake, one little footwork fake, one little step toward the rim, one little just eye fake that makes you think that shot is coming. And then boom, the corner guy comes in. Boom, Lively's defender takes a little half step toward him. The lob is there. That's the genius of Luka Doncic. He turns what looked like...

advantage Boston into win Dallas two points the other way. And then you have to do it all again. 90 more times. He's coming at you again. And I do think there is like a, the longer a series goes, there's a mental fatigue of, oh my God, we just played perfect defense. Maybe we got to stop. Maybe he, he, he gave us a gut punch basket. Okay. That possessions. Oh my God. We just got to do this again and again and again.

So that's the basic chess book. The longer a series goes, the more comfortable Luka gets with whatever you're going to throw at him. Because how many new things can you throw at him in a game six, in a game seven? You've probably showed all your hands. So I do think the longer the series goes, you're never going to fool him, but just in terms of him being more and more and more comfortable. And the Mavericks have, with Luka and Kyrie,

two of the very short list of tough shot makers in terms of like off the dribble, you know, attacking in the paint, you know, pick and roll or driving type of shot makers. And then, you know, like what you're talking about, Luca Joker might be the other guy putting this conversation. Those two guys are so good at creating indecision in the paint for the defenders and,

And making great decisions off that. And a lot of times, like you said, it's that bullet to the corner for a wide open three, which P.J. Washington has hit at a really high clip. So is Derrick Jones Jr. too. That's going to be the guy the Celtics are going to help off of. It's the only guy I think they're going to feel safe being like, we're going to make this guy beat us with open threes. We're going to direct...

All of our help when we have to – we don't want to help off any shooters. That's the whole goal of playing drop-back defense is we're going to stick to shooters as best we can. But guess what? Can't do that against Luca. He's too good. You're going to have to send help somewhere else. Even if everything is perfect architecturally in the middle of the floor, you're going to help off somebody. It's going to be Derek Jones Jr. And by the way – Josh Gray has become a really good corner three-point shooter too. And then as soon as you think it's that corner three –

He flips it up for old Gafford or Lively to go get it. I mean, how many times? And the Wolves put so much on Gobert, which is what you do, the four-time defense player. But how many times was it Gobert in a two-on-one situation where he's kind of trying to bluff and he doesn't want to just let Luka comfortably step into a floater or a little mid-range and

but he doesn't want to fully commit to it then he kind of stuck in between and luca just hits a little floater or look at those the lob over his head what else are you looking for in this in this dallas offense versus boston defense chess match what's another interesting battleground to you oh i think it's interesting that you you see drew holiday covering kairi um

Look, the matchups are going to change all the time and within possessions. Yeah. Well, I think the other thing is, and I just wrote a whole story on the Luka look-ahead passes and the Luka touchdown passes. Those are going to be big in this series. The Mavericks, and it's funny because I kind of rolled my eyes when J. Kidd was talking about we want to play faster this season because every coach in every training camp says that every single summer, right? Yeah.

And I'm like, man, Luca walks it up like they were 28th in pace last year. Luca absolutely bought in. They were seventh in pace this year and they're looking to run even off of made baskets. I mean, how many times have you seen off of made basket? You know, like Luca had the one in game one against the wolves where he sees ants tired. He catches the inbounds pass off of a made basket, looks directly across the court to Kyrie. They're both free to the line extended in the back court and

And there's a little nonverbal eye contact there. And basically it's, hey, you know, run and go route. And Kyrie takes off. Luka lofts the thing over the top of the defense. Boom. So they're going to look to run. And I think, you know, some of those cross-match things, like if Porzingis is guarding P.J. or Derrick Jones Jr.,

He better bring his track spikes because those guys will be flying up and down the court. And again, when Luka gets the ball, the first thing he does is he turns his head and he's looking to throw it over the top. I'm glad you brought that up because –

There's all the little battles within the big battle. And one of them is transition points. And in a series that could be really close, like one game could swing on, Oh, Dallas got eight more fast break points than expected. Luca,

throwing those passes and playing at that pace is, I think, example number one when people talk about the chemistry between Luka and Kyrie. That's Luka adapting to a guy who likes to play fast, who likes to play in chaos, who likes to play in havoc. The Celtics, wire to wire, were the number one transition defense team in the league.

And I think an under and to, you know, to show how the two halves of the court, although we're separating them now are never discreet. They always interact. I think if you ask Joe Mazzullo over a beer about the three point shooting and how many threes Boston takes and all the fretting about that, including not didn't fret, but I would like them to take like three more shots at the rim. Every game gets to the line sometimes and all that. I think one of the primary reasons he talks about math all the time, we're going to win the math battle.

And one of the fun stories of this series is that Dallas has gotten here by choking off the paint defensively. We're just not going to let you get to the rim. And now they're suddenly facing a team, particularly with Porzingis back, where that is very, very dangerous. This is not Chet Holmgren. It's not Rudy Gobert. It's not Ibiza Zubats. There's no...

Josh Giddey, there's no Terrence Mann, there's no P.J. Tucker where you can stash your centers. This is a team that your centers are going to have to guard Porzingis and Horford, and they're going to bomb threes. I want to hit on that. I do want to hit on one thing. You talked about the chemistry with Kyrie and Luka being willing to adapt. I think this is also the Luka thing. It's a great example of Luka being coachable.

And Jason Kidd doing a great job coaching him, right? And Luka is coachable because he has that relationship and that respect for Jason Kidd. But J. Kidd told me, because Luka, he was a walk it up, pick you apart at my own pace kind of guy. I mean, that's what he was known for. And J. Kidd told me he hit Luka with a, I believe it was a text, and said, hey, we want to play faster this year. And he was like,

I thought it was going to be a day or two before he responded. I thought he was going to have to think it over. This is when Luca was over in Slovenia, I believe. He said the text came back like this. We got to get the ball in faster. Basically like, okay, I'm down. Here's what we got to do. And it's just, again,

Being willing to be coached and understanding he had to adapt after a really disappointing season, I think that's huge. The three-point stuff, it is fascinating because they have— We'll get there. We'll get to that end of the floor. My point was, as much as Joe Mazzulla talks about the math and winning the math, I think if you gave him truth serum—

Another reason, maybe reason one B, why he likes taking so many threes is because it helps your transition defense. You have three guys spotted around the arc at all times, including often a big guy, and you're in ideal position to get back on defense. If they have two or three breakdowns and the Mavs score eight points out of those breakdowns, that's a game.

These are two very low turnover teams on both ends of the floor. They take care of the ball on offense. They don't force turnovers on defense. We could see a lot of games where it's like 10 turnovers for Boston, 10 turnovers for Dallas. If there's one game where one of the teams gets sloppy and that's 16 to 9, that's a game. These little games within the games really matter. All right, back to the Dallas offense. A couple of things that I'm looking at. Derek White.

If and when he's on Kyrie, I think Dallas could activate the Luka-Kyrie two-man game because I think Derek White, as great as he is defensively, is a matchup where Luka can take him to the post and do some harm. Number two, little thing... Not little thing I'm looking for. We're talking about Boston playing dropback defense, trying to stay home on shooters. Well, Luka's going to win a lot of those battles, particularly when he has the matchups he wants, when Boston centers are on Lively and Gafford. And I think...

Sort of question number one in this series is when does Boston feel, if ever the need to come out of that defense, when do we see them blitz Luca? When do we see them switch against Luca? And when they do switch or when Luca forces them to switch and it's Porzingis or Horford on an Island against Luca or Kyrie, are they living with that? Or are they going to send a double immediately? And those, those,

Those the if and when's of those are very interesting because there is no one answer to Luca. That's the genius of a player like this. You're going to have to try a lot of different things and you're going to have to try them in rapid succession. If Luca like everyone, it's very sexy. So you got Blitz Luca. You got to make Derek Jones Jr. beat you from three. You got to make these other guys. Well, guess what? If he knows you're going to blitz him.

It's not going to be a Derrick Jones Jr. contested three every time. They're going to manipulate the floor and get Derrick Lively dunks and P.J. Washington threes and Kyrie Irving threes because he's a genius. And if he knows it's coming, he's going to pick you apart. Or he's going to get Kyrie going downhill playing four-on-three basketball. The key is...

He can't know that it's coming every single time. And so the where and when and how, and by the way, blitzing Luca, as Stan Van Gundy mentioned over and over on the broadcast of the conference finals with Gafford is the screener versus lively as the screener is a very different animal.

Blitzing Luka when two or all three of Green, Hardy, and Derek Jones Jr. are on the floor so the shooting is a little bit less, although Dallas stopped playing that trio together toward the end of the conference finals. It's a different thing than blitzing Luka when they have their best shooting lineups on the floor, which lately don't involve Tim Hardaway Jr. because he doesn't play anymore. We'll see if he gets back in the rotation. But

There's a whole sort of theory of like, do you wait until he's hurt you to start breaking that out every once in a while, breaking out the traps? Or do you just spring it kind of randomly and see what happens? See if some of the other players miss open shots. See what that does to their offense. It doesn't just have to be...

sort of a white flag kind of defense. It's going to be very, very interesting to see when and how that happens because he's going to break your base defense. Kyrie's going to break your base defense. P.J. Washington, another thing that can swing a game. If Porzingis and Horford are on P.J. Washington and he's popping them for threes above the break, he goes four of six, one game, that's a game. Like that could swing the whole game. Swung the whole second round series against the Thunder.

when the Thunder did a hell of a job defending Luka and Kyrie, and P.J. Washington had 29 points and 27 points in wins and was just lighting it up from the corner. I mean, P.J. Washington, he changed. You know, he was...

MVP of that series might be a little bit strong, but they don't win that series without P.J. Washington stepping up and knocking down shots. A lot of those shots were presented to him because of game plan, because of the fear that Luke and Kyrie strike in an opponent. I think both these teams are going to be able to score in this series at a decent rate. A couple other things before we switch ends of the floor. Peyton Pritchard and Sam Houser and Boston's bench.

One of the reasons that Porzingis coming back is huge in this series is I got six guys now I know I can trust if I'm Joe Mazzullo. Not five, but six. So that if Sam Houser gets played off the floor, which kind of almost happened in the last round, and now he's facing Luka Doncic and not like Andrew Nembhardt in the last two games of the conference finals...

Peyton Pritchard fights like all hell. Luca's going to go right at him. If the bench, if this ends up finally being the series where Boston's bench is a little bit rickety, well, now I got six guys back if they can all stay healthy. Um,

And keep an eye on the half court picks that Dallas sets for Luca because you can play whatever defense you want. You're going to be in blitz. You're going to be in drop. If he gets a pick at half court, those defenses are gone immediately. You can't blitz there. And a drop is just, you got 20 feet of Luca runway to work with. And if he's feeling it, he's pulling up from 30, just like we saw in game five in Minnesota where he's on the logo and he's, he's lighting it up.

I think the other thing is if they do put Porzingis on Jones or PJ on one of the non-centers,

You better battle to keep the bigs off the glass. Bingo. That's Gafford or whether that's lively because that's another game. That's another game. Lively gets five offensive rebounds and three putbacks. Gafford is like Jokic all of a sudden on putbacks. He's tipping the ball with either hand. It's going in the basket. Like that's a game. And those guys, they're a tag team. They are relentless energy players.

They're obviously both extremely athletic, unbelievably springy, and then, you know, Lively's massive. He's 7'1".

And maybe the best athlete on a team that has Derrick Jones Jr. Airplane mode. That perspective. I will miss Kevin Harlan's, hold on to your hats, when Derrick Jones Jr. is in any kind of position to run. Like, they're going to be having a whole conversation about blitzing and trapping. And Derrick Jones Jr. is in the open court. The conversation is over. Hold on to your hats. I love Kevin Harlan. He's just unbelievable. Last thing on Porzingis, defensively.

I mentioned Luka winning or trying to win all those little battles in tight spaces in the paint, all the ways he does it. The lobs and the floaters are just a little different with Porzingis at 7'3 versus Horford at 6'10 or 6'11 or whatever Horford is listed as. They just get a little harder. And I wrote this last week.

Boston's opponents are shooting 71% at the rim in the playoffs. That would have been like disastrously bad from a defensive perspective. And a lot of that is that Porzingis hasn't been, now they haven't gotten to the rim at all because Boston switches and takes all your good, good stuff away. But that's that little marginal difference is, is a big, big deal. All right. You want to switch ends of the floor? Let's do it. Boston's offense against Boston,

the Mavs defense, much improved defense. Where would you like to start here? Well, I mean, you have to start with Tatum and Brown. And my guess is that they will put Derrick Jones Jr. on Brown. Now, he usually gets the toughest defensive assignment, but I just think with

with Tatum's size that he might be better suited to defend Brown, which would probably put P.J. Washington on Tatum.

um that honestly is a pretty concerning matchup for the mavericks but like there's not i mean there's not a lot of great answers and then i the other thing obviously is you nailed it as far as the mavericks what they've done throughout the playoffs is they have packed the paint as well as any team i think last i checked teams are shooting like

Something like 56 points, some odd percent within, you know, within five feet of the rim, which is an elite number defensively during these playoffs. They've got two rim protectors. They have Maxi Kleba back now so they can play big. I do think Maxi is going to spend a lot of time.

covering tatum he is one of their best on ball defenders which people don't think for a six foot ten european guy is the case but if you watch the mavericks you know what i'm saying it's true not not only that in prior matchups now the teams have changed so much over the years you don't know what's relevant and what's not but there have been games where not only has he switched on to jason tatum the mavericks have just used him for 10 minutes here there is the primary guy on jason tatum i think he's going to spend a lot of time as the primary defender on tatum

Just like he's done in previous playoff series against Kawhi Leonard. So I think Max is going to be a big key in this series. Also, getting back to the offensive end, whether he can hit threes after coming off that shoulder injury could be a swing thing. And then...

So the challenge here for their bigs is going to obviously be defending out on the perimeter. And I think that's a much bigger challenge for Gafford than it is for Lively. I think that's one big reason that these minutes could tilt pretty significantly in Lively's favor. And

I go back to game six of the second round, and that's the game. The closeout went over Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City absolutely lit the Mavs up from the corners.

In that first half, you remember Lively checked in pretty early in the third quarter, played the rest of the game, ended up being plus 26 in 30 minutes in that game. I had a double-double. Joining, I think it was David Robinson and Magic Johnson as the first

Only players in the last 40 years or whatever would have doubled. Only rookies would have double-doubles and closeout wins. But the Mavericks spent a lot of that second half basically zoned up where Lively is in the paint, but he's getting from corner to corner. And his ability at 7'1", 2'0",

protect the paint, and cover that much ground to be able to contest threes in the corner is remarkable. I called it a one-man zone. He was playing a one-man zone within Dallas' man-to-man defense. That's exactly what he was doing, and that changed the entire game. Obviously, people are looking at the rebounding and the energy, but them being able to zone up with him and have him basically like, hey, Lively, you've got baseline to baseline, and he did it.

in a closeout game against a team that was, you know, it ain't like Giddey was out there most of the second half. You know, they had corner three-point shooters. So I just think Leib is going to play a massive role in this series because of his ability to cover so much ground. And I thought the most under-discussed, overlooked play in the Western Conference Finals, you might be able to guess where I'm going with this. You're a basketball nerd.

One single play? You're asking me to pick out one single play from a five-game series? I'm talking about Lively here, so I thought you might get it. No, go. And it was overshadowed by what happened right afterwards, which was Lucas' ridiculous, hey, he went right for the first time all playoffs, maybe all season. I'm going to step back for a game winner over a seven-foot, four-time defense player of the year. The play right before that, Lively got switched on to Ant.

And he is one-on-one in space. A 7'1 rookie, one-on-one in space against one of the most dynamic attackers ever.

in the league and Lively sat down and handled his business. Ant couldn't get, he couldn't, you know, he couldn't create anything on him. Ant ends up just, you know, picking the ball up at the free of the line, pivot, pivot, pivot. He's got nothing. And he tosses the ball out of bounds. Instead of the Wolves being able to take advantage of what you might thought was a mismatch and making it a two-possession game, essentially sealing the win, Ant

Lively made an unbelievable defensive play against an all-NBA guard and gave Luka a chance to win on the next possession. Point is, this kid can guard on the brimmer. He can stay in front of really, really dynamic off-dribble attackers. He's a good switch defender already, and you nailed a critical battleground in this series. I think he's going to switch more than he ever has before against Boston because...

Boston's whole thing is our centers. We move around the floor on defense. Your centers are going to have to guard poor Zingas and Horford because you can't put them on Tatum and Brown. You can't put them on Derek White. You might want to think you could put them on drew holiday. That hasn't worked for any teams that have tried it. And, and,

I think the Mavs are going to switch a lot defensively and try to keep Boston in the mud. Try to see if Boston's going to settle for contested twos. Try to keep Boston three-point attempts down to the degree that anybody can. And switching is a way to do that. But you have to be able to switch with Porzingis to do it. And I think Lively, when he's on Porzingis, will do some of that now.

I think it's tough for Gafford. I think Lively is... Lively can do it. And that's why Kleba at center...

Although they don't really want to play that way now that they have Gafford and lively. I do think we're going to see a game where that's where that is not just a, again, a white flag moved by them, but an ace in the hole. Let's try this. Cleba makes a three or two and we ride with this for a little bit and switch everything on defense. I think we're going to see a game or a quarter where that happens. Now, this is all you got Porzingis for two reasons. Number one,

When Boston is running all of its other stuff, which we'll talk about, which is aiming Tatum and Brown at Luca and Kyrie and playing one-on-one out of that or playing in four-on-three out of that.

Porzingis' spacing around that is just a different animal than Horford's. He spaces to three or four feet further behind the arc, his release is quicker, he's taller, you have to pay more attention to him, it opens up the lane. He can impact the game without touching the ball, which he hated to hear when he was in Dallas, but he bought into it now.

But what he wanted to do in Dallas was post up more. And if Derek Lively is going to switch here and there, that's what is unlocked for Boston. That's another reason they got Porzingis here. And Porzingis was an elite post up player all year. And one of the reasons he was an elite post up player is that when he got guards and wings on him, he didn't just catch the ball 17 feet from the rim, turn and settle for that shot. Sometimes he did. All he did in Dallas, by the way. Sometimes he did. And he can make that shot.

But more than ever this season, he said, you know what? I get it. I get the assignment. I'm going to take a dribble. I'm going to spin. I'm going to burrow. I'm going to hit you with an elbow. And then I'm going to be an arm away from the basket. And that is when I can finish. And I think this series for Boston to go back to the stakes for them

is the ultimate test for their offense. That was number one in the league. That was number one ever. And yet everyone has questions about, okay, when a team tries to bog you down, are you going to take the bait and get bogged down in the shots they want you to take? It is the ultimate test for them because I do think Dallas, and I've said this before,

Boston's offense is at its best where there's a small, skinny, defensive liability guard on the other team who often has to defend Derek White. And it gives them an easy entry point into every possession, which is that guy is

You're you're either you're your guy. Derek White is either screening for Tatum and Brown or Tatum and Brown are screening for Derek White. And they've used Tatum and Brown as screeners more in the playoffs, which I like. And you're going to have a choice. You're going to switch your Darius Garland or your Tyrese Halliburton or your Tyler Hero on to Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown. Or you're going to trap. And then our passing game opens up and our passing game leads to open threes.

Dallas doesn't have that kind of player. Kyrie has guarded his ass off. And he is strong. I think he's listed as 195. He plays bigger than his height. He is not a pushover. He is not someone you can just roll over if you're Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. What I mean by ultimate test is when they switch, and I think they're going to switch a lot, I think they're going to switch with Luka too and just say he's 6'7 and strong. Go at him. The ultimate test is going to be when it's Luka,

You're going to have to go fast. That means catch and go right away. Beat him with speed. The minute you stop and dance with the ball, he gets to brace himself. The defense gets behind him, gets to brace itself, and you've lost the battle. You got to go fast. Or if you give it up, give it right back to Tatum with Luke on him and then go. When it's Kyrie, you're going to have to be diligent about being physical with him and trying to get to the basket. And you're going to have to set all of this up

With decoy actions and slipped screens. Like if you know they're switching, slip some screens. Run some decoy stuff off the ball. Get them confused so they can't switch the switches they want. And Boston, undeniably, as great as they are, has periods of haziness where they just don't do this stuff anymore.

And the East has afforded them the margin of error for periods of haziness. That margin for error is... You've started using hazy to describe offense. I've only heard it used to describe like IPAs, but I like that it's an offensive term now. Well, but look, the margin for error for that is over. This is a totally different animal on both ends of the floor. They need to be on it at all times. And part of that is Porzingis. Part of it is just how they play. Part of it is where they go. Um,

But the other thing is when Gafford's in the game and Gafford's on Porzingis, that's when the pick and pop for him becomes a weapon again. And if you send a third defender flying at him to kind of get in his sight line when he pops for threes, he's gotten better at making the passes. And once they get their passing, once they have an entry point to the basic, simple swing, swing, swing, then they become really, really hard to guard and borderline unbeatable. The threes start falling. And I think this is the series where they need Porzingis because if they have him, they

I think they have just enough spacing and answers to Dallas's defense. And if they have a limited version of him, I'm not sure that they do. How much do you want to see Lucas with Shana Porzingis and KP go to the post? Well,

Would he show the same contempt for KP's postgame as he did for Gobert? Gobert at least got a couple of and ones on him in the deciding game. I tell you, Luka, though, all year long, he has graded out as a very good post defender. And I always compare Luka to Houston Harden. He's just a little bit bigger version.

but it's the same thing. Like those guys are strong and you're not going to get your, if you post up, it's not going to be the spot you want to post up at. Usually he's going to, he's going to nudge you off, bump you off, uh, of that spot. Um, and look at actually is, you know, his isolation defensive numbers are really, really good, but I agree with you. Um, especially he's going to be playing 40 plus minutes game 40, maybe 44, 46. Um,

He, the knee is still not great. He's still playing on a sprained knee. You know, those guys who are super athletic, I agree. Like if you're attacking Luke off the dribble, you know, don't dance. You got to go. Are you, have you joined, did I hear you correctly recently on the hoop collective podcast that you've joined team wind horse and not making predictions anymore on series that I cover?

So you won't make a prediction. You're going to make me do it solo. No, I'll do, I'll make the same prediction I've made the last couple of series. And I was wrong last series. It's going to be a long, fun series. You know, everyone in my life,

This is the time where everyone becomes an NBA fan, right? All your dad buddies are suddenly big NBA fans, which is cool. They follow other sports I know. Is this going to be a long series? I hope it's a seven-game series, six-game series. And I keep saying, I can't imagine this is a short series. I just can't imagine it. But I couldn't imagine Wolves-Mavs was going to be a short series either. And it was. Five is short. Anything over five is medium to long.

Five is the line of demarcation. Gentlemen sweeping on. Mavericks fans will claim that I picked against the Mavericks anyways because that's what's happened the last couple series. Actually, the last three series.

I'll tell you when I decided I was out of the prediction business, I'm in the locker room and I'm talking to Kyrie. He goes, Hey man, I'm about to post you on my Instagram. This is after the Clippers close that game. I'm like, what are you talking about? And he shows me this thing. It's either, it was either from like an old Mavs Clipper series and doctor look like this year, or just straight up doctor where everybody at ESPN picked against the Mavs, including me. I'm like, dude, that's not, that's bad info. I picked Mavs in six and I'm,

So did I in that series. I didn't pick them in either of the other two series. I looked it up. She's like, yeah, you're telling the truth. And then he was like, okay, who are you picking next round? They were playing the Thunder. And I hadn't really thought about it yet. You know, Thunder were awfully good, number one seed. That's when I was like, a long, fun series. I decided at that point, like, dude, I don't need to be in the prediction business. I don't need to have, like, either, oh, you don't believe in it. It's not my job to believe or not believe. It's my job to cover what happens. Now, I will say...

To your point about the doctor picks thing. First of all, there are a lot of very gullible people on the internet. Second of all, I've actually reached a point where I just assume everything is fake. Like every, every like excerpt from a podcast with somebody saying something inflammatory, I'm like, well, maybe that's fake. I have to check with that person and see if they actually said this. Like that's the world that we are heading towards where I just like, you just are not going to be able to assume anything on social media is a real thing.

By the way, people listening, you should start to at least question, is that a real thing? If you see 17 people picking Mavericks in four, maybe that's not the real thing. You can actually go to ESPN.com and see the real thing. I'll make a prediction. There you go. Drum roll. Between both teams can win. I've made that clear.

Dallas has the best player. A lot of momentum. Boston has not been tested at all in the playoffs. And I do think there's going to be... This could go one of two ways in game one. The shell shock of, oh crap, this is a real team. Like we got to really be fired up for this. Or...

Kind of what happened in the game ones of some of the series, in every series they've had, I think, where they just come out like a house on fire and it's like 15-2 Boston. Like they go the other way of like we are just coming out crazy amped up and the only question is can we sustain it? And they couldn't against Indiana. The Mavs are also 1-5 in game ones with Jason Kidd as the coach. Now they are on a one-game win streak. I'm going to go – so my head says Boston and 7.

My head also says that's kind of a cop-out home team in seven. So I'm going to just go, although that is my actual pick. I'm going to pick Boston in six because I do think Boston is going to win. I don't feel strongly about it. I would advise no one to bet money on it. I would advise no one to bet money on anything because I said anything. I wouldn't bet my own money on it, but I'm going to go Boston in six. You're not getting an ESPN bet endorsement deal out of this, you know, Vince Rodding.

ESPN bet brought to you by, I don't know. I don't know anything. I don't even know what the odds of the series are. Last I looked, Mavs were plus 180, meaning if you bet 100, you can win 180. I know what that means, at least. Maybe your little super intelligent basketball fan community is not a bunch of degenerate gamblers that's trying to help the people. Degenerate gamblers.

It's got to be so stressful. You've got Celtics in six. Every time I gamble, I'm like, this is just – and I lose. There was a time – I only bet on football and I literally only bet like five or ten bucks a game. I may have told this story before. This was like 20 years ago. Me and my college buddies used to get together every summer. None of us had any money. I mean, I was like a high school teacher making nothing. Every little bit of money was like –

Just precious. And so we went to Reno instead of Vegas. We went to Reno because we get a hotel room for all four of us. We were in San Francisco. We drove to Reno for nothing. And I had like one hundred and fifty dollars. That's my gambling budget. One hundred and fifty dollars. Walk into some depressing ass casino in Reno.

Three minutes just out like blackjack just cleaned me out. I got, my friends were laughing at like, my luck was so bad. Like dealer throws a 10 dealer or dealer like gets up to 20 randomly. I did the, I did the math correctly. Every hand. I know the rules. I did the math out just like three minutes. I'm like, all right, well now we have three nights in Reno. What, what am I going to do? And I just went to the sports book and watched like watch, watch games and,

So don't bet on anything. So I just think this, I think the Celtics are ready. This, I think there is a sense of like, this is what we've been waiting for. This is our moment. I think they're going to go the other way with the pressure and say, F the pressure. We know the pressure. We're going to embrace it. We know this is a different animal. We're going to come ready for it. And I think if Porzingis is healthy and ready to go, this is the whole basis of my prediction. Obviously injuries can change anything. I think they have enough answers already.

On both ends of the floor. Barely. Barely. Enough antidotes to their worst habits. On offense. Barely. Barely. And enough ways to at least. Make it a little bit.

Difficult isn't even the right word. To complicate Luka's path to getting the very best shots for Dallas. And that's all you're trying to do. You're trying to drain the shot clock, drain the math little by little by little so at the end of the possession, you've tilted the odds a little bit in your favor and then you've got to do it 90 more times. I think they can do just enough of that to win the series and finally get over the hump. But...

Dallas has the best guy. And I will say as Richard Jefferson caught a lot of flack on the, I don't know which pot it was. He was a road trip in or the old man in the three saying he thinks Dallas is going to have the two best players in the series, not just the best player in the series, but the two best players in the series possible. I think in a vacuum, if you ranked the players one to five, that's all due. Yeah. I think based on just the aggregate performance this season, Luca one Tatum two, uh,

Brown, Irving, Pickett, three and four. And I would put Derek White five based on the season. But it's absolutely plausible that in a finite seven game series, it could be Luka one, Kyrie two, in which case the Dallas Mavericks are winning the NBA championship. I'm going to go Boston in six. Any final thoughts on this? I cannot wait. I'm going to Boston tomorrow. I cannot wait for game one. This is an awesome finals. The finals are amazing. It's a little bit of a

you know what show with the level of media that are there and covering it as a whole different animal. But I just love the finals so much. Well, I'm looking forward to being part of the, you know, what show Tim McMahon hoop collective. What was your most recent? What you had the, you had the hit ahead passes recently with Luca, but I think you feel like you had something else after that. I do have a, I've got a story coming out soon on the tank of Palooza coming up aces for the mighty man house.

Yeah. Yes. Well, two times two. I mean, the one we talked about in the lively one, the lively one. Yes. I mean, he is absolutely sensational. All right, Tim McMahon, I'll see you in Boston. We'll have some beverages. We'll enjoy some basketball. Godspeed. I'll see you there. Appreciate it. Adios, amigos. Church's original recipe is back. You can never go wrong with original.

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All right, while the Boston Celtics and Dallas Mavericks and the NBA's Glitterati are gathering in Boston for the NBA Finals, 28 other teams are preparing for the NBA offseason, an offseason that promises to be quite eventful. And it starts really with the NBA draft, which is only a couple weeks away, scarily enough. Jonathan Gavone, how are you, sir? I'm doing great, Zach. How are you?

I'm good. I'm good. The lottery is in the rear view. That's the last time we talked. It was a wild lottery with big jumps for the Atlanta Hawks and Houston Rockets by way of the always generous Brooklyn Nets around this time of year. From my end, it's been a little bit quiet, chatter-wise. It doesn't feel like the real chatter quite has started up yet. But I've also been in the playoff bunker. I haven't been in the offseason bunker quite yet. So I've probably missed some chatter. So I wanted to go to you.

You can go anywhere you want. Mr. Chatter. From Hawks at one to Wizards at two to Spurs at four and eight, which I think is my nominee for most interesting team in the lottery, to Portland at seven and 14, to Memphis at nine, Houston at three. Good teams with top 10 picks or teams that want to win now with top 10 picks. Where does this start for you? Who's the most interesting team, most uncertain team? Whatever you want to take it, you go.

I think there is uncertainty all over the draft, in the top five especially. It's one of those years where there's no clear consensus on who the best prospects are. And it's just really weird the way that the lottery played out with some of these teams jumping up, Atlanta from 10 to 1,

You know, Houston moving up. I mean, these teams were not really expecting to be drafting this high. And so, especially Atlanta, I think this kicks off this really long process for them where it's like,

wow, we're drafting with number one. This is amazing. And then it's, holy, now we actually have to decide who to take number one. And it's not one of those years where it's like, okay, Victor at the top, boom, done, or Anthony Davis, LeBron, whatever, Zion. There's no clear consensus. I've heard that they're trying to invite between six to eight guys in, but there's also some talk that

Maybe they're going to look at moving down, taking multiple swings at this, which I think could be an interesting play in this draft. You know, they have a lot of things to figure out internally first with Trey Young and DeJounte Murray and, you know, Clint Capella and DeAndre Hunter. There's so many moving parts on their roster that, you know, how do they view themselves? Are they, you know, does this kick off this

you know, potential rebuilding process where maybe they look at trading one of Trey Young or DeJounte Murray or both.

And, you know, what's the appetite there? You know, first of all, in the front office and then with the coaching staff ownership, you know, there's going to be a lot of voices there in terms of what which direction they should head in and which is normal. I mean, every NBA team goes through that process for, you know, where are we at? Where do things stand and where are we going to be and how do we view it? And I've been told that.

It's going to take them time to figure out this process and sift through the options, you know, figure out, you know, what to do. And I've been saying all along, you know, even from, you know, our very first mock draft in February of 2023, we said something like, this might be a draft where we don't know who the number one pick is until Adam Silver steps to the podium and announces the pick, which is insane.

You know, we saw that, you know, a couple of years ago with Paolo, Bankero, Chet Holmgren, Jabari Smith. But usually, you know who the number one pick is going to be. You know what the top five is going to look like. And we really have no clue. Part of that is, you know, one of the guys at the top, Zachary Rizashe, just finished his season.

Instead of coming over here to start his pre-draft process, workouts, and getting ready for interviews, he had to fly from France to Italy. The NBA is doing a combine over there in Treviso. And so that's where he's going to be doing measurements and athletic testing and his medical shooting drills. The NBA is compelling all these players to participate in all of these combine activities.

And the timing really kind of sucks for a lot of these guys because, you know, Zachary Rizashe has played 75 games this year. I'm sure the last thing he wanted to do is fly to, you know, to Venice, take a, you know, drive down to Treviso and, you know, shoot by himself in an empty gym and do interviews with, you know, I doubt it's even like GMs or executive level people over there. So, yeah.

I think this is going to be an extended process. And, you know, so it's going to be very interesting to see how it plays out. So I've used the lull between the conference finals and the finals and some of the days between games to start making these calls. And I just everyone is like, no one has any idea what Atlanta is going to do. Everyone just tells me it's too early. Atlanta doesn't know what nothing nothing has really started yet. Yeah.

To your point about the chaos at the top of the draft, I believe your latest mock has Klingon going seven to Portland. And even in writing that, you say this feels like crazy low for a guy who has been mocked anywhere from one, two, three, four for a long time. I have had a lot of teams tell me the early intel is that that is his absolute floor. That if he's there at seven, Portland is taking him. Now, who knows if that's true or not. But that to me is indicative of...

The kind of chaos at the top, but you have a little interesting tidbit in there on Klingon and Portland and you say Chicago and Memphis and even the Blazers, if they have to, may be interested in trading up in the draft to get Klingon specifically. Can you elaborate on that a bit? That was a little interesting one.

Yeah, so we have Donovan Klingin ranked number three on our big board. You can make a case for him as high as the second best prospect or even the number one prospect. I've heard that Atlanta likes Donovan Klingin. Quinn Snyder especially likes Donovan Klingin. And so Atlanta had...

I think one of the worst offenses, one of the worst defenses in the NBA the past few years. And one great way to fix that is to draft a guy with a nine foot seven, seven standing reach, who is, you know, the best shot blocker in this draft, who, you know, anchored a national championship defense the past two years. So,

Donovan Klingin, his issue is... I don't know how much of an issue it is, but you look at the teams drafting three. Houston, they have Alperin, Shemgu, and four. San Antonio, they have Wimbanyama, five. Detroit, they have Jalen Duren, and six. Charlotte, you know, this is a dicey, but Mark Williams, apparently they really like him in Charlotte. And so the idea that he might fall to seven isn't implausible. And with that said...

In a draft like this, where the cost of moving up or getting into that top five isn't as high as in a normal draft, that is when you could see teams like Portland, like Chicago, like Memphis saying, OK, let's package what in our pick, 7-9 or 11-7.

put something on top of that and move in to get Donovan Klingin before another team goes and gets him. Because Donovan Klingin has a lot of fans around the NBA, not just in those three front offices. And so I could see him being a guy that teams try to move up to get.

Memphis at nine is an interesting one. They do desperately need a big in one way or another. They're going to get a big, it just might be free agency. We'll just see what we can get for a minimum contract. They'll always be, they'll always be bigs. The one thing I would not expect Memphis to do is trade out of the draft unless they're getting somebody really, really good by doing so. Cause I do think they value the sustainability of like our team's about to get really expensive. Having a guy on a rookie contract, even a midsize to big one, like the number nine pick, but,

could be valuable to us. I mean, they're one of the teams that you hear likes this draft. And there's been this narrative out there, it's like, this draft stinks. And, you know, you should just light your pick on fire. It's a complete waste of time. There are a lot of teams around the NBA who really like this draft. And it's outside of the top five where teams especially like this draft. And so I've heard Memphis are a team that maybe, you know,

Could look to move down possibly as well and get multiple picks, maybe target, you know, like a Devin Carter, a Johnny Furphy, guys like that, you know, guards, wings. That's what they need, you know, and so they need shooting and they need a big, so, you know,

If the cost isn't that high on draft night, a team like Memphis or others, I expect them to be opportunistic. And that's where I can see a lot of trades materializing because every team kind of values this draft differently. I mean, with the second apron and all these rules that people like Bobby Marks understand a lot better than me, there's going to be a lot of movement. Teams need to do stuff to clean up their salary sheets. I do like the idea of...

lighting a draft pick on fire is a fun image. Like, I do like the idea of Adam Silver. With the number nine pick, the Memphis Grizzlies, pass. We'd like to pass. Minnesota Vikings did that one year. All right, let's talk Spurs. Four and eight. Obviously, they have the generational prospect. Not even a prospect, just a guy who might...

be a good bet to make it all NBA team in his second year in Victor Wimbanyama. You know, well, they have two top 10 picks. They could go in a million different directions. Everything from the simple thing, which is just make the number four and number eight selection to packaging them to move up. If they want somebody higher than four that they don't think will fall to four to pair with Wimbanyama trade one or both of them for a veteran, which is,

I just, you know, I don't expect them to do anything rash. Like if they trade for a veteran, I think it will be someone not that far from Wemba Nyama's age curve. Obviously, Darius Garland has been mentioned for them both in fake trades and now in actual trade rumors for quite a while. They are the most, because they have Wemba Nyama and two top 10 picks,

As down as some people are on the draft, whatever, it is a precious, precious opportunity. When Benyama is so good that they may never have this kind of opportunity again, certainly to pick at four. Eight is courtesy of the Raptors and Jakob Pertl. What's the latest intel on that? I remember the last time we talked, I had heard

Topich, I had heard Rissache because of the Wemby connection and the French connection, but he's obviously going to go higher than four. Reed Shepard is a name now that I've heard a lot with them and just a shooting, shooting, shooting, but is he going to get to four? What's the intel there?

Yeah, I mean, I think you hit it spot on. I mean, those are a lot of the names that we're hearing as well. Obviously, like they have a big need at point guard. And so that's where you hear that got like Topich, you read Shepard, Rob Dillingham, Stefan Castle, if you view him as a point guard, which not everybody does. But I think there's also a sentiment that they might want to accelerate this process and

and try and be competitive sooner rather than later if they can. If there are good trade opportunities out there for them to add veteran pieces that could help them make a playoff run as soon as next year, I was told that they would look at that. And they might look at older players in this draft too, especially with the eighth pick, like a guy like Dalton Kinect, for example, could be intriguing to them.

You know, I've been told that they don't want to be bad. You know, who wants to be bad? You know, but like they some teams are have more of an appetite for it than others. And I think that, you know, Victor Wimbenyama, he's a very competitive guy, very

And he's not used to losing very much in his career. And I think that they understand the urgency of having a generational player like him. And to try and tank next year to try and get a Cooper flag, it's probably not an attractive option for them at this point. I've got good news for them if they want to make a giant leap next season and at least be in the play-in race.

I've got bad news for any Spurs fans who think they might tank for Cooper Flagg. Victor Weminyama is so good already that with decent health, one or two transactions that don't have to be these crazy home run transactions and getting something out of at least one of these picks in terms of production next year.

They could be 500 just like that. Like this, that's how good this dude is. And they could be better than 500 just like that. That's always the question, right? That's why health and all of that. Um, what do you make of, um,

So they could go in any number of different directions. What do you make of the Garland noise for them? And look, Cleveland has put out there pretty aggressively. Kobe Altman and his postseason media availability said, you know, hey, all the conversation with Donovan Mitchell has been great. The extension is going to be on the table. There's been reports that I believe are credible that if Donovan Mitchell does sign that extension that

uh people in darius garland's camp would would prefer the calves at least explore a darius garland trade and break up that backcourt i've said before i think it's unlikely that the two of them will be on the same team next year kobe all been pushed back on that and said kind of like why not we're not looking to trade darius garland he's 24 years old he's really good and i get that and you got to fight the good fight both publicly and privately as a gm but what do you make of the garland noise so far

I mean, I buy the noise on one hand because I understand why Darius Garland would want to have his own team. I mean, he was an all-star level player and he's really young and he's really talented. And there's just a real scarcity of players like him around the NBA who are at that age and can shoot and can play make and are high character. So Darius Garland is going to have a big market if Cleveland decides to

to shop him around, which I don't think they are going to because he has, I believe, four more years on his contract, including this upcoming season. And so what is their rush to trade him? And so the Spurs come to them and say, hey, we'll give you Keldon Johnson and the fourth pick for Darius Garland. Keldon Johnson

the Cavs are going to laugh at them and say, like, absolutely not. That's not interesting to us whatsoever. It's going to take a lot more to get Darius Garland. And so I don't know how much urgency there's going to be on the Cavs part to do that, but I could totally understand why the Spurs would want to have Darius Garland on their roster next year. Well, yeah, he does have four more years left, all guaranteed, no options on it.

through 2028, well, he'll make $45 million a year. And he is only 24 and a half years old. He's not like, he's not one of these, like he's 24, but he's like secretly turning 25. And you don't want to mention that because it sounds better to say he's 24. He's actually just 24. And talk about a team that has a lot of margin to absorb a weaker defensive player on the perimeter. When Benyama is like playing with two big man defenders, it's like an extra defender. So you can absorb a lot of weakness at the top.

Um, I love Darius Garland as a buy. I guess by low is not the right word because he's not going to be on the trade block for low, according to what you're saying. Um, but I, I would love the fit there in San Antonio and I get what Cleveland is doing. I get it. Like,

It does feel like there will be one big first domino that drops somewhere in the NBA as the draft approaches or on draft day. Maybe it's in Cleveland. Maybe it's word about Donovan Mitchell's extension. Maybe it's in Miami. Maybe it's in wherever. Maybe it's intel on who might actually take Philly's cap space.

um some domino maybe it's in atlanta you know what what what's brooklyn tell me about brooklyn i mean i don't have any intel here but like i heard joe's size um press conference where he talked about you know uh being patient and you know rebuilding and the buzzwords that you at times hear you know like but this is a team that doesn't have their picks and

And there is a team in Houston that does own Brooklyn's picks. And so, you know, just playing. I mean, and you hear the interest that they have in Macau Bridges, you know, so it's like Brooklyn has a third. Sorry, Houston has the number three pick and all Brooklyn's picks moving forward. And so, like, is there a deal there that makes sense with between Houston and Brooklyn for to get Bridges picked?

to the Rockets and really allow the Nets to jumpstart their rebuilding process. And this is total speculation on my end, you know, just looking at both teams' situations and just reading between the tea leaves of Joe Tsai's press conference. Well, I mean, there's been a whole pile of teams that have expressed interest in Mikael Bridges in the last couple of years since the Nets got him.

In the Durant trade, Memphis, of course, made a monster offer right off the bat. And Woj reported that at the trade deadline, the same trade deadline that Durant got moved to.

And let's put it this way. I don't think any of the teams that have expressed interest in McHale bridges have kind of like closed the book on that. I think the nets are understand who the teams are and that that interest remains open. I talked about the nets when I was going through sort of fake Carl Anthony towns trades after Minnesota got eliminated. I talked about the nets is like, well, if they want to go the other way,

and do the opposite of what Joe said in his press conference. I actually think you could make an argument that there's a semi-plausible path to Mikhail Bridges and Carl Towns playing together in Brooklyn. And then I said, I don't sense that either team... I mean, I don't think... Minnesota is still sifting through the wreckage, but I've said before, I think Minnesota should keep it together and damn the tax, give this team another run at it next year and keep Towns, including keeping Towns. And I said, I think Brooklyn...

Brooklyn is clearly aiming. I think the Joe side comments you're talking about, they're aiming at the summer of 2025 when they could have a whole lot of cap space and get someone to come with bridges. Potentially that's one quote unquote, rebuild path kind of tread water this year. Forget the picks or a sunk cost. And I think they'd rather take that cap space path than, than use effectively use it now on cap. But it's interesting. You mentioned another detail you and Jeremy Wu had what's with, um,

Like some prospects don't want to work out with Charlotte. What's like, what's so bad about Charlotte? I think it was more of a scheduling issue early on than anything. I don't, I think that they'll get who they want in eventually, but what a lot of teams have told me and also agents of the top players is that

This whole draft process started much later than usual for them because the draft is being held June 26th. It's usually like a little bit earlier in June and the combine was early. And so there's like a, it feels like the draft should be in a week from now, you know, like not in four weeks. And so I just think that it was, there was some challenges for teams and agents just trying to figure out what is, what are all these teams trying to do? And in so much, it's such an uncertain year, right?

Who, where, what's my client's range? Like, where should I be working out? And so I think that was more the challenge that they encountered as well as

You know, what direction is Charlotte going to go as well? The other teams in the top 10, you know, like they could. I mean, where does Lomelo Ball stand there? You know, like long term. I mean, so I think these are just the normal things that that, you know, the teams go through. And it's so early that, you know, if you can't get a guy on the books a month before the draft doesn't mean that you're not going to get them in eventually. I mean, a lot of the action really happens like the last year.

10 to 14 days before the draft. You know, a couple months ago when Charlotte was in the quote-unquote front office hiring process that ended with Jeff Peterson, I had front office executives from other teams. So just sort of spitballing the way you do in conversations, sort of like I would ask them just, what would you do if the Hornets interviewed you? Like, what would you do if you got called in? None of these guys got called in. We're just shooting a breeze. And a few of them said, I would go into owners. I would go into Plotkin and Schnall and say,

Step one, I'm investigating the trade value for LaMelo Ball. I'm going to see if we can get some team to give us an absolute godfather offer of unprotected picks and swaps. Bottom out next year, try and get Cooper Flagg, whatever. But step one is going to be I'm kind of resetting the LaMelo Ball thing. You know, that's easy to say. And I don't know that there would be a godfather offer out there. Maybe there would, maybe there wouldn't.

you know, I get the foibles. I get that he hasn't been healthy and that's been the number one thing. He just hasn't been healthy. I'm not rushing to get out of the lamello ball business quite yet. If I'm, if I'm Charlotte, um, there's something worth at least looking at there with ball plus Brandon Miller, who I thought was fantastic for them. Plus Mark Williams, if he gets healthy, plus whoever they might get in this draft, I wouldn't be in a rush to just bail on that before seeing it a little bit. Um,

I thought LaMelo was a little more diligent getting to the basket and probing into the paint before he got hurt last year, which is an area that he and the coaches have talked about. Like, I've got to get better at that. It's just that struck me as interesting. And I'm glad to hear it's more of a scheduling issue, because if I were a certain kind of player,

That situation would kind of be appealing to me. Maybe there are guys who just think, well, LaMelo is just going to have the ball all the time and I don't want to be like one of the LaMeloettes. But with Miller there, it's an interesting situation.

I would want to play with Lomelo Ball. I mean, like he's one of the best passers in the NBA and he's only 22 years old. He's younger than Dalton Connect, who is going to be a top 10 pick in this draft. And so, I mean, the issue with Lomelo is like, what exactly is his value? Because he's only played in 58 games the last two years. And so like, I don't know that the Hornets really know what they have in Lomelo Ball yet. And

So I would expect that they go into the season with him and Brandon Miller and we pray that he's healthy this year and really try and get a better feel for where does he stand and how does he fit in. And I mean, because like you said, I mean, we just talked about Darius Garland, how hard it is to get a young point guard that you could build around.

LaMelo Ball is 6'7". I was going to say, you know what the difference between LaMelo Ball and a lot of these young point guards are? He's gigantic. He's Luka's height. He's not Luka's strength in bulk, but he's that big. That's a huge, huge deal. Yeah, and he can really, really shoot. So 6'7", shoots it.

of it can really pass 22 years old. If the Hornets ever decide to export the market for Lamella ball, which I don't expect them to anytime soon, he's going to have a lot of value on the trade market. People are going to be very interested in him. Last question, open-ended like a couple of things that have happened. Newsy wise. You have a tidbit in your mock draft about the Kings at 13, potentially wanting to move their pick. We have had the new Orleans Pelicans, uh,

defer the Lakers pick to next season so the Lakers will be picking at 17 I thought that was the no-brainer smart move for New Orleans once the season felt like it did to kind of short the Lakers next season even though they could make a trade in the offseason any team in the top 20 or otherwise I mean the Knicks have two picks in the mid-20s back-to-back is there any team that you've heard interesting stuff about that we haven't talked about

Yeah, I mean, the Lakers will be obviously an interesting one just because they're at such a crossroads with LeBron James and Anthony Davis. I mean, they need to get good.

fast and the West is so tough right now that what how do they get there how do they find that third star you know what is the value of the 17th pick of Austin Reeves Max Christie you know like what does that net you in a trade and so I mean that's going to be a big one obviously for us to follow I mean

I'm interested to see what Oklahoma City does at 12. I mean, I mean, the most promising roster in the NBA. They have, you know, they own every draft pick from here until 2050. They could literally do anything they want on draft night. And but they've got so much talent already. They've got, you know, guys who are really talented that can't even get on the floor for them. And so what do they what do they do with the 12th pick? And, you know, do they try and

you know, accelerate their pathway to contending for a championship by, you know, trying to trade for veterans or packaging picks or whatever it might be. And so, I mean, those...

Oklahoma City is always an interesting one to follow on draft night. Now, it's hard to know connecting the draft to the offseason, the free agency offseason. It's hard to know, particularly Oklahoma City, what's real and what's not real. But there have been reports out there about Hartenstein being on their radar as a free agent. I've heard the same thing, but it's all sort of like

scuttlebutt going around the league that would be an interesting fit and hartenstein's getting paid like whether it's by the knicks or somebody else like that dude is getting paid starting center money i thought i thought that because of his passing ability he can fit in a lot of different places he's an interesting name to watch in a free agency class that is not that deep in top tier talent i mean he took less money to go to the knicks on the first go around so i'm not sure that they're gonna be

ready to let him go anytime soon i mean why can't the knicks just empty that you know give him a blank check and say like you need 100 million sure here's 100 million you know i mean they're trying to win a championship i agree with you and given that mitchell robinson's health always seems to be in flux like you can't i don't think pencil like oh we'll just have mitchell robinson play 30 minutes a game all season um

But if you give Hartenstein whatever and you give OG Ananobi whatever, and I still think OG Ananobi will re-sign with the Knicks. If you're asking me to bet where OG Ananobi is next year, I think that's still by far the most likely play on the board. You know, you're getting up there and you're wearing an apron or a couple aprons at some point. But that's life. You're the Knicks. How about you just, you know, you're the freaking New York Knicks. How about you just act like the New York Knicks? And when was the last time you were any good? And so...

I can't imagine them like pinching pennies here, you know, and taking a step backwards because they've done such a great job getting themselves to this point. And so, yeah, so you pay because but like TV money is going way up and all that. And so I think that's fine. That's not crazy money for him, considering how valuable he is. He's very, very good. Yeah.

Before, well, look, we're going to be leaning on you a lot in the next couple weeks. So I want to let you go now. It's finals time. You go do your thing. But what is, when is the next mock draft? What else do we have? What else do we need to look out for from the Gavoni Wu tag team? Or where are you going? Where are you going to be? Are you taking a secret trip to Australia to see somebody? Like what's going on in life?

No secret trips. I mean, honestly, it's pretty boring, but I'm just going to be at home pumping out articles all day, doing TV hits, you know, podcast appearances. And thankfully, the draft is here in New York, so I get to stay here. But yeah, no, no big trips planned and just watching a lot of film, being on my phone and a million articles. So every single day you can expect something from either Wu or me or both of us probably.

It's go time for you. I mean, it's always go time one way or another, but now it's like really go time. All right, John DeGiovanni, go do those things. Thank you for spending a little time with us. We will certainly reconnect at the very least, you know, the week of the draft or something like that. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Zach. For the first time, Monday Night Football streams exclusively on ESPN+.

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