The Blueberry Billionaire | John Bragg
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Why we succeed IT is we try to find the product we could run and run the hell lot of IT, as we would say, well, by far the largest wide blueberry as we sit here today or process in carrot with the largest carrot processor in canada. So we learn how to do, do IT well, and then just run up as much as we can, then we do about at products and and we try to do the same thing. So stick your nothing, do what you can do and do more of IT, and try and grow IT, don't trying and do everything. There is so many people failed by getting successful one and then think they can do everything.

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Check out the link in the show notes for more information. My guests today is john brag, the blueberry billionaire from humble roots. This entrepreneur that you've never heard of has grown oxford frozen foods into the world leader in harvesting and processing wild blueberry.

And if that was not enough, he also started grow largest private text communications from this link, and all of this from a small town with a population hovering around twelve hundred people. I travelled all the way to oxford nova s goal to hear his story. How did you start? How did he grow? From the early days of wild ebers with the rake to huge acquisitions across the border recover at all?

This is one of my favorite conversations in recent memory, and i'm so happy I get to share that with you. It's time to listen, aller. There are too many podcasts, not enough time.

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What was that like? Well, I grew up in the village of three hundred or three hundred and fifty people. As I remember, we had a sport event of some kind going all the time. From time I was five or six years old, do I have a sponge ball game? And so a lot of sports activity and skating on thumps and hockey games on trumps.

And in great day, we had a new regional school on oxford, brand new school with a gym nadian which was a just a wonder for us because we've been playing baseball and hayfields and to get gernau um and and germain teacher IT was just fantastic for us. So that became a big part of our life. I was a member of four agent at a winning cah and all those little things that, you know, I guess, you could build on through the years.

What kind of values and principles did you learn from your parents?

They were both very straightforward. My father grew up in a country store. You had to have repeat client, small community and people didn't travel. So you add to treat people with respect and and are our play if you tell somebody you're going to something you're going to do, if you're say you're gonna there seven, you're gonna there seven or before. Very straightforward values, you know, good base to go on.

So you started collecting while blueberry is in high school.

I did my very first year. I was fifteen. So I had higher somebody that drives the pickup truck and and we had four, five packers and pick four thousand pounds of blues is when you think today we do one hundred and fifty million pounds a quite difference? IT was the beginning of an ordinary career.

I guess, and use that to pay for university.

My last year of high school, I actually made four thousand dollars picking blue age, because that would had developed. And IT cost twelve hundred to go to our day. The game was, I could pay my way and I will.

My parents could afford tube. And then by the end of university, I would thought a lot Better than that. Had a choice to teach school for thirty eight hundred dollars on an extra hundred of, I coached the basketball team, and I had made several thousand more than that picking blueberry that year. So I do what I was going to eventually do.

So you built an apparent building in university.

I left the university fellow student I built on, ah you're well informed, I forget about that but but IT was a great bad turn, a great learning .

court force and you ended up burning that Philip.

fifty years under a long while. And and finally, when we were we're doing one of our major cable acquisitions. We said that we would sell some non core asset and that was a non core asset and and went along with some other non core items.

But after mountain, you went to deal houses law .

school and went to deal house law school, which was kind of interesting because I didn't ever plan to be a layer a friend of mine was going. So then I had talk my way in the law school at the last minute. But I was only there for three weeks when I realized that was for lawyers. But IT was a great education. I met some great people, good friends was probably that my best education was first year law.

And how that helped you in the business world .

after whit helped me with the principle of of a fair deal on both sides of the table. We'd like to think that when we've completed purchase or an a deal of any kind that the other side happy and more happy, you can always do that, but it's it's good objective.

You laugh. And then you went into .

the blueberry, but came back to the small village and and decided that my father and brother were in the saml business, that I could help them, but that I could pay my way. Who is a blueberry business which worked out all right then in nineteen sixty eight years, real turning point when there were big crops at main and and the grow Price went down. Some case seller, on some days we had stop picking.

I had already made a decision. I was gonna in the blue ry business, and I decided if I was gonna be grow blue es, I Better have my own freezing plant. So I built a freezing lampon nineteen sixty eight when I was, is twenty eight, and didn't have any idea what I was doing. Just a focus. Who told you .

the blustery business? Like how did you even start to build a frozen plan .

on the farming side as the department of agriculture? T A. nova.

Gosh ahead, some very good extensions workers and a commitment to try and grow the blueberry industry and over the kosa. And so I kind of came along with that. I was truly a cottage industry at that time.

And then the frozen food side, we were fortunate to find some consultants in pensylvania that had done work in man. So we hire these consultants, design, we we built plant with their own help. But really, where I eat, there's no question where I eat. You know, if you're dedicated and after you can make.

what was the reasoning for the frozen plant like y go frozen, you're picking a wild blueberry .

while blueberry is well. And sixty seven, we couldn't sell them. And if we did, we thought we were giving them away.

Not a good ways to go forward on if you trying to grow the industry, but you can't sell them. I decided I should become master of my own destiny. And, you know, was an easy.

The first year, we had a complete crop failure. The only one in the history we had had poor crops and good crops. But that year we had a disaster.

And that was right after all the factory .

having built factory and all year ded up to run two may and pounds and we ran, 还想 让 我 看着 到 just was no crop。 People could understand that our bankers, they knew that wasn't something we did wrong. That was mother nature.

And so we got through IT. How do you handle em? Do you save when the pricing is bad so that you can release IT in pricing bad?

Sometimes you think that that's what we should do. But when there's an opportunity data sell and get the cash, I guess you take IT and and that's what we do now that taught say we don't Carry inventory or strategically, you know if the markets too weak, we we might Carry some water hoping market will form. At what point did you .

realize the blither business could be as big as IT it's become? I don't .

think I ever really understood that we could grow to what that is and that I would be a base to grow other things and other companies and other discusses, you know, we say good years and bad years, but we ve made IT work when I started the industry. The wild berry industry was forty million pounds in total, and I hope to do two of that. And today, the industry is over three hundred million, getting closer to four.

And we do of we couldn't see the growth. But of course, we made a major acquisition, one thousand nine and eighty three and main. We bought one of the two largest Operations in main.

And then more recently, we're developing a lot of land in the K, D, M. P. But it's probably pretty mature now.

So what why did you buy more land, the vital acquisition, the you bought more land as IT come up around oxford. Is that control supply? Yes.

I think we have a lot of money invested in the factories are position would be to grow half them on our own farms and buy half from farmers. If you took the extreme and bought them all from the forests and you could be pretty vulnerable to competition running the up too much. The girls game up on you and me.

They're all great guys. But you don't want to be a hundred percent there when you have all the money tied up the factories. And the other side is we don't want to have a hundred percent the industry.

That wouldn't be good politics. We need a good farm in community, and we enjoy working with the farm community. And we've got friends we've for fifty, sixty years.

we will talk to me about that a little. You do a ton of research and you make IT available to your competitors. You make IT available to farmers.

We do. We we developed quite a while ago a philosophy that said, if it's good for us, why don't we share with the farming? A lot of them deal with us and bring us their fruit if we can make them more fishing, that keeps us in business and were continually seeing to our own farm people enter the farm community.

We have to be more efficient. We have to compete. The world were competing with all fruit, all foods. So if you're going do that, you have to grow more pounds per acre and do IT more efficiently. So that's what you say, a business.

Talk to me a little of what's the agriculture of while blueberry, my understanding is they're not planted.

You're right. There's different basis in nova goal to on abandoned farmland on the back roads where people moved out. I say in the thirties when ral electricity went through, didn't go to every backside.

Now when we're dignam's wireless and then we have to be in every backroom IT doesn't matter whether there's just a camp there, they want internet. You compare that with world electrification, which did the backroads but not the real backroads. And so a lot of people, when electricity went through, moved off the the back road farms, and those farms eventually became blueberry.

If you, they revert to nature, spruced, grow on blueberry plants, grow on, usually thirty years after they were farmed by a farmer. And so they're not planned, though they are actual. And in many cases, some of these farms had already been taken over by fruit trees, whether quite thick or scattered.

And William cut the spruce trees down, and with a blueberry field, the industry and mine, which is the mother, the industry, at about a fifty fifty ratio between all farms, which tend to be smaller than they were here. But then they had the blueberry bar, which were big fields that were pine forest original. And then through forest fires they became a, you know, the history written about the picking blubberin, the seventeen hundreds on these parents.

They've been burned over the years. And so that's a different industry. And now in the brunch week, on the society around week, again, it's all farmland. But on the north ore, it's a pine forest that were clearing were really excited about the potential in the branch. We're gone to have more accurate blueberries than the run to c, has some potatoes to going to change the kv plan.

the economy there. What is IT about? My understanding is quebec mean nova new brands with those were basically the only places while blueberry really grow.

Not quite right. Novice ation were right. Main as the mother of the wild blueberry industry. But lake saint john is also quite a big production area .

in eighty three when you did the Cherry field acquisition, yes. Was that the big step up for oxford?

Yeah, I would say eighty three was kind of a transformer of year is also the year that we bought control with store rest of helix stable and took us from being Operating small rural towns to having the major city. And so those were basis that we've built on. We weren't that will finance. So lots of borrowing and lots of convincing banks we could do IT. So eighty three was a big year.

You've never shied away from using that.

We haven't shied away from using that though. Today are about sheet, are in great shape. But through the years, we've always spent, what I would say, almost fully livered the food business.

We were livered, but we had good assets. The cash low was in is consistent, we should like. But in the cable business, we were buying cable companies ada and western tero, but the the cash flow was pretty consistent.

You could but see where you're going. So I washing, afraid of death. And I think that separate made from, you know, the original cable owner, there were lots of them.

As the industry developed and fiber came along, we started tying them together and there was a lot more capital involved. Lots of the small town Operators just decided that was time to move on, that they didn't want to leave themselves the way I was required. So we started buying small systems and tying them together, and that we had the opportunity to get health actually eventually dark.

But basically all of nova should, except place by in a little bit, keep in. We just get lovering and livers and buying and buying some more. And that was hardly year that we didn't have an acquisition.

I want to come back to east link. In the second you own one, the largest I mean the largest private tele communications .

and private yes, by far, what are the input .

costs to blueberry? I think one of the big ones is bees.

the biggest single cost? Or are the rental of honey bees for pollination? These barriers there fifteen, and blueberry support, where every blossom has to be visited by A B. To get a blueberry, so we would require a lot of hides.

And I was reading an article this morning on on the canadian economy and where scio bank had put out a report that said, if we would eliminate the borders within our provinces, there was something like two to seven billion dollars of efficiency that would come to canadian. So in R, B, business were stuck with the, with restrictions. We can bring bees from the open organ, bali, all wait a new brunch week, and we have to get permission through each province, and we get the permit to we bring.

But when IT comes to ossia border, no. So nova goal and P, E, I are the only jurisdiction to north amErica that have restrictions in. Historically, IT was about protection ism as some local backups which come together and love at the government.

So we don't want others coming in here. This is our market, but that's a small business compared to the blue y business. So we're held hostage by by a lack of potlatch in nova scotia.

My understanding is like there's a almost like a team of moving pollinators in the U. S. They start on the west coast and the right sort of like go across the country to florida and then up to northeast.

I asked one of the guys about their business model and they said, abc, almonds, blueberry, cranberries. Then they go to fda for the winter, and then they go back to california in the women, they do the road over again. And IT makes some quite efficient.

Or a nova goa. What can you do? You have to stay within the border. We have a great junior hockey team. And hello, ax the moon heads.

And it's like saying you can play in the q, but you have to use only overseas inputs here and you can't bring a body yet. It's not only bees to just restrictions all over the place on on border crossing. And there's been panels and people studying at harper head, a study group, and everybody finds the same thing. It's kind of ridiculous, but that's the country we live in. And and but those always hope.

Do you have a professional beekeeper on staff?

We do, where the large big keeper in the the school ship by fire. And one of the largest in canada because we couldn't get be. So I would start their own April. We still don't have enough and the farmers don't have enough.

And what difference does that be make and yelled like the pollination .

cess five times. I think if you had no honey bees important and relied on on a local pollsters, you might get a thousand and fifteen hundred pounds. If we use four to five hives just considered high, but we can grow eight thousand and or nine thousand pounds.

So it's tremens different. And with a research, we've been sensing research with a doctor, purple let the agricultural college, and he's really taught us how to to grow plant seller more productive than with fungicides and fertilizers. And we do have the basic crop there, but then you have to get promoted to real problem.

This year was particularly bad. The farmers lost, in many cases, fifty percent the bees over winter. So we should he take those bees of prada of maybe in the water .

time there was too cold.

I'm not sure there's always lots of of reasons. Our bikey papers say they went into the winter and poor condition, so then I didn't survive well, does mean that if you want to raise peace and no, so you know there's a second market in the brand, get the input ten days later than the the goal and micro cot. So we could ball ate here and then take them the brunch week, but we can't do that.

So our biggest input cost our bees of the total is two thousand dollars of thousands of thousands. Its in bees. So it's a big, big factor in a big issue and of a big disadvantage in novatian primers to rent this disadvantage.

And when you started, you're picking blueberry of the rakes manually.

That's right now.

I know how is that process evolved today.

They're been all kinds of people trying to develop a mechanical harvester. And my brother and a mechanic looked at some at least efforts that were done in may in another basis, and they said, we can do this. We can do IT Better.

So I took them quite a while because we really weren't focus. That would be something that we'd say. And joy all, we should get that old machine out and see if we can pick blues with IT.

So the only thing I brought to the table, which I got them, a dedicated tractor. And so we're going start working on this in january. And they did and they solved the problem and took couple years maybe, but very tell ted, and the same basic principles being used today, that they develop back the eighty.

So, uh, there was a big effort and IT costs the money. But again, we made IT available to the farmers. That is still the standard. There are some other harvesters that are made by local farmers or mechanic. But but the one that my brother and loyd weather may developed is its kind of the standard.

IT was nice that you made IT available to everybody too. I could have give you such a competitive advantage because labor is obviously expensive.

We not only have our own farms sufficient, we need the farmers sufficient.

I like how you think in in terms of the ecosystem, a lot of your competitors that sort of coming gone over the years, why as oxford survived .

was a cottage industry. When I started, people were were Operating like a cottage industry and is the requirement for more capital and more capital and and bigger Operations came most of the existing people really worry up to more reaching what they had. And and there were a different generation.

And so i'm a Young guy that says I wanted do this to us in my life and I want to grow the industry. So I was more of an attitude. I think I just fell under an industry that needed to be developed. And so in some ways, we provide IT the leadership for that. Do you think that.

that long term sort of approach to that helped you?

Yeah, we're big, big evers. And looking at the horizon, there's a famous quote by that was the camera shal who said that the only those who look at the rise and find the right road, if you look at your at your feet, you stumble. So we're big lockers at the horizon saying, how can we do that? And a private business allows you to do that.

One of the interesting things about oxford, from my point of views, you never get into formulated through products which be naturally pretty easy in the frozen food market, probably have hired marges.

Why not? Lots of people have suggested we should have our own brand products of my great friend and matter. Pretty crapper used to say, john, you'll spend ten million dollars on the factory, but nothing on marketing.

But our real business, IT, was business to businesses we call IT to selling to jam manufacturer in europe and manufactured. And if you're a pie manufacturer, you're gna go where the apples are because there are fifty percent of the buys or apple or if you're in the chAmber, you know have a whole variety. So oxford did anything to offer global jam, and north amErica would be maybe five or six popularity list.

We're a provider to manufacturer and whether smoothes or whatever. Uh, so there is no economies of scale. I remember, you know, we have this great golf course cabin down in k britain, and the industrial commission of inverness before been built. Cabin came to see me, see if I would make blueberry jam. And in buras, well, you know, their intentions were great, but IT made no economic sense to try and like blueberry, to keep britain, make jam and then bring everything out, whether first vis or whatever shover action from other areas.

So many people chase these higher margin products and they lose focus.

That's exactly right that a lot of people do that. Why we succeed IT is we try to find the product we could run and run the head. Lot of IT, as we would say, were by far the largest wild blueberry proof as we sit here today, were processing current with the largest carrot, certainly caret processor in canada, maybe in north america.

So we learn how to do, do well and then just run up as much as we can. Then we do Better products and and we try to do the same thing there. So stick your nothing, do what you can do and do more of IT and try and grow IT don't try and do everything. Is so many people failed by getting successful on one and then think they can do everything.

Was the rational al for carrots to sort of use the factory or more? Because understanding is like the Price. Season and sort of mid september and then current .

season starts. And we said, what can we do in the fall, extend the season because we start the first of August running twenty four hours, seven days and and the minute blues you're done, we moved to carrots, had taken is quite a while to learn how to do and do IT really well, and which we're doing now. But that was exactly IT. And then we wanted to to have a core of people in the winter time. And so we started making Better products for mccain puts.

that was the oneness .

engineering and cheer sticks and colleague flowers, and primarily talk to .

me about that deal with the machine for the online rings.

But very interesting, I would say, a typical maritime deal. I went to see walls. Mccain, this is over fifty years ago, and to look, I need something to keep my people busy.

And have you any ideas? And he throw me a file on on your rings that they had looked that and bit IT didn't fit because they were doing frenches year around. And he said, well, maybe you can do IT so needing, needing something to do in the winter time and off season.

We took the file and and we had at one page agreement, which I still have, which gave us the kills Operate to make on your ranks under the mccain label in canada. And we've been doing that for over fifty years, and I would say only in the amErica times, you know and and of course, we've had our absent downs. But in all those years, I never went to went back to walls or her, and I said, I need help your guys or give me her, that I always worked IT out behind the scenes because I thought I could go to the once, and I was going to save that. But if I became a nuisance to them, then the relationship would disappear or so we've worked all these years and I never had ask a favor. We've got bone a pr commercial basis, and I think it's worked well .

for both of us. Like the fact that it's simple one page agreement over a handshake, but at the time you enter that you had no idea how to make them and drink.

didn't know how to make on your ring because the deal we made this is still going still one page. But it's altered in many ways, of course, over time with investment since on yeah we didn't know how to do IT, but we we do not do blues either or carts.

We'll give you the confidence to figure that out.

Other people in the world you're doing IT. There must be some way you can learn how to do. And I can't be that complicated.

This is back in the day before google or anything that you're not like searching how to make rings.

suppliers love to talk. So you've talked to the people make Better and say, well, you know, what kind of bad should we use and what so theyll tell you more than they should sometimes IT was difficult, but and and the objective wasn't to make good union rings. That wants to make online rings exactly the same as the competition because then it's else.

He said, you don't have gift, have something unique and and that was not as easy as you would think. And we could make Better chasing on. We could put them in a blind test. An hours would win, but they were little different. And the objective who make the same as the other guy.

what's necessary to be successful in a commodity business if you're making the same product and a very similar way that other people are making yet, what gives you an advantage? How do you create an advantage?

You have to be the low cost producer, and you have to big top quality and blue age and character ers. They have a established grades and some. So I Better than your names, little different because IT was only one major competence we are trying to compete with.

With that violates you have to be a low cost producer and and have top quality. And and top quality doesn't have necessarily caused. In fact, quite often, it's cheaper because you have less product on the floor and less shank age and you're donnot, all right. And the end product become Better. Top quality, low cost is a pretty good model.

There seems to be a natural entropy business. As you become successful, you start spending more money, you start doing things that are are different, or you getting a fancy office or doing these things. But how do you maintain that low cost over fifty years?

I'd like to think that were low. Hopefully we are. But we strive every day, and we have a culture of every year trying to do IT Better.

There's always changes we can make in the manufacturing line or on the farm. And so we have a real culture of being opened the door Better tomorrow. I could could least five or six things that I know we're gonna Better next year.

And from some of the things we darn this share and uh, you improving the mechanical harvester, improving how we unload the product and how we deal with the farmers said there there's always steps that you can do and you can't be satisfied with the stablish qual. You know we could sell four may impounding of blueberry, while blue is kind of as a special the item. But when you want to sell three or four hundred million pounds now you got to compete with with culv ated blueberry, with straw and marmara. We're always trying to be to be Better and and they get cost down. Whats the difference to me?

While blueberry and cultivated blueberries from .

ga tremendous different. First of all, the the health benefits at the accident are double in wild blue is the flavor is much Better. The collegiate blueberry, the fine product. But but if you have them sight by age, anybody will choose the world for flavor. And that's a big, a big hill.

We have, like jam manufacturer that one of the biggest and the world is under ocean france, and they only use european blueberry, which are a different species again, or our wild bilberry. And the eur ans can compete with us because they're still a called each industry. So they're gradually disappearing. But there are a lots of people who will will change the recipe and maybe use fifty percent calivada. Uh, so so this big competition.

this is more expensive, wild blueberry are more expensive.

historic blame more expensive and we could get a prawn um but it's becoming more difficult. So our objective is to be the low cost producer even against what are the .

key sort of performance indicators or matrix that you would look at to judge the business.

Food business is is very difficult to put down on paper ah you know you fighting the weather and and all kinds of weather conditions, a currencies, a big issue. Labor's supply is is because we're seasonal really in the food business and the blue y business in particular, we just have to put all the inputs in, do at all at the right time the exact day for this phrase and the and then hope that mother nature gives you a break and doesn't take that away from you.

Like, for instance, this year, we think the kalian potential has great potential for wild blue ies and IT catches showers because IT sticks out IT in the water and the bay shores on one to hide in and and the either my machine bay, whatever on the other. But they Normally had catch good showers in at good rain this year and get any rain. And we have a tremendous crop, and you go to see at the day before harvest and the just little wheat blueberry, hardly way anything.

And as a result, we had less than half a crop. And so we did everything right, all the conditions to the right. So very difficult to project. But but what you need as a framer is somebody else to be in trouble with aircraft at your crop. Work out well, I bet you're all look at.

So what's what's the cottage industry and what's the crop? And lake, say, john, was the crop and made what's the culminated crop? So you're always looking for somebody else to have trouble.

All you can do is farm through the cycles, keep putting the inputs and do IT everything on time, professionally. And hope you hope you get the break. And our advantage is that we are in three, three different micro climates like IT.

Imagine that we are poor crop in the peninsula, but we are a very good crop in mine. And so just a different micro climate. Most business issue can kind of project in business plan, but in the food business, weather, place of big car.

that which gears a little bit to break communications, which became island. But IT started way back in nineteen sixty eight. Rate, after you just had a crop failure, you're just dressed at all this money into the factory that you can use, right?

And then you .

bought your first was at a television licence.

was a cable television license, and we didn't really buy IT. The license were owned by the federal government. And so they accepted applications for different towns. And their philosophy at the time was to have local entrements to local television.

But that got taken over by technology with fibre and and where you could tie ten small systems together and have a good size one and have a lot more capital. When we started, you know, we hit two american channels that we were offering. And and I remember when we were upgrading halifax from six channels to twelve, our engineer, the time says nobody ever watch twelve channels and that's all of my dive.

So we built twelve channels. And course, with their short, that was out date that we had rebuild. But so we didn't pay for the license, the license we applied for and nobody else applied.

This is average of goa. We build a system and with correct cable, and put up a big master and tend to get the signal to health. And then we got microby american channel then.

But IT was tough. IT was really tough. But again, we didn't know what we are doing.

Is IT true used to buy in tape from new bronze .

that I wasn't going to magine that. That was so terrible. We built a tower down mount sham cock on the U.

S. Border, and we received the band guard channels there, hate them, put them on the bus and a card. Halifax got them first time.

We got him an hours. There were two weeks old, but the sitcoms were okay. But the boston bronze, two weeks later, or, but not quite so good, there was not not a lot of entertainment.

So we were selling these us. Channels two weeks. All then eventually we got a microwave system that brought them man directly and still off mount sham cock. And now, of course, all this stuff comes by fiber. And so tremendous changes in that business .

was IT capable intensive back in six year. How was you're building this? So where does the capital .

come from to build well, that. town. And so you know he didn't take a lot of capital, but but we borrowed the money from the bank over school or most of IT, and we worked hard and amazing how to develop.

But then we could see that you could tie them together with fiber and we keep and they keep more capital is required. So a lot of the other towns, the guys just decided they didn't want put more capital. And so for sale and by corporate lawyer at the time, George join, there's something interesting here.

Always sounds come up, they're six players, but you always get them. And that was basically, we became easy to deal with, and we always live by our word, and we always paid up Price. And so we just kept picking them off one a time and and made IT easy and didn't over over the goat.

We gradually picked up a lot of town. And then, you know, we bought company out of no finland that had systems in sudbury and bridge rumba Alberta. We just gradually buy them, but there's nothing to buy any more.

I think about this, we have both are cable and food business that were both quite rapid growth businesses from really small cottage industries to to professional companies. We've played that game and they're both good businesses. But but I don't see the next big step.

There are kind of mature businesses .

yeah and all the bigger companies said, know our public companies and and they're not going to sell .

at one point. You were losing a lot of money every month yeah and you went to see your father and .

your brother try I guess maybe IT was eleven thousand a these number number grow or shrink over fifty years. There was eleven thousand a months we were losing.

But that that's like that was hundred and of thousands today.

Thought we should have a little family meeting on IT. Uh, that look, we're losing IT not cutting costs everywhere. We did cut costs to all the extra people out.

I can see like the end the title, but i'm not really sure where we're going. I think we could sell to some of our neighbors or maybe we could buy one or two because they were, they were everywhere. Wish ed struggling, my father said, we spend a lot of money on your education.

We shouldn't throw away the prey wise advice. And I said, case, I don't will ever get IT back or not. But but turned out that was right. We had expense of education, and we had learned out how to go on IT. Sometimes you get a little wisdom, take a long way.

how important with scale.

Well, scale ended up being very important in that business. And and that's why. And eighty three, when we got californians were able to tight, we couldn't really afford that professional engineers. We were lying on suppliers to give us the technique advice, but scale is absolutely important. And so as you you expand IT .

that you've done, I think hundreds of acquisitions effectively in a link why the reputation for paying the most.

I don't think we paid too much, but we were prepared to be at the top of the cycle again. We are looking at the horizon. If you hey, a little too much in your private company, you just have a little little longer to make a work.

My brother, you say about buying a wood lot. Well, maybe we're paying too much, but if we live long and if I will be a good deal. So this is the same with cable. IT just meant that instead of a ten year payback, you talk twelve and you worked for nothing for two years. And the big game, that was the right thing to do is that .

something private company is can do easier than .

public company. Yeah absolutely. We were still doing all kinds of land development.

And this development we have in the food business on the plate, it's all twenty years arion types them to get get the land clear and developed and get a productive. But is june and nobody else gona have IT. So there's a lots of of projects like that. What are some of the .

other other projects you have going on that you can do privately that you couldn't do publicly or advantages of just being private versus public?

I think there's tremendous advantage to if you have good management and we d like to think we have good manage that would be work hard at that.

But there's just all kinds of decisions that were making that, of course, if its efficient season in the factory, we anna, have a two or three year payback but sometimes you have to make motherhood statements shift say, well, like built hundred and fifty million dollar factory and and the ki m pencil that's a motherhood statement and you couldn't say what was gonna. A three year payback is not be built, but IT is a good long term asset for the area, a good long term asset for us. But so there are some what I call motherhood decision you make to keep yourself efficient and and going are there are other .

ones that come in demand.

The land development we're doing up there is is the same thing. We we bought about three thousand makers should Carry lang. The lap was badly at premium Prices.

Why would you pay premium? We need to secure the base. That's where we grow our carrots and and we were, you know, doubling the production of carrots. So we need the land base, in some case, pay twice what the market was, but it's only available once, you know you you know yes, not always available. Buffet talks about well.

I went almost managers to run their businesses as if they own one hundred percent of IT, right? And then you would do these things where it's like, well, this might not make economic sense for ten years, but IT makes economic sense .

over fifty five hundred cars. And not not your buffet would agree in he he buys going companies with with existing revenues. And he I don't think he's done much start up and and you know he gave up on a bird chair, which was the right thing, but he he's he buying companies all over the world there are already casal positive and making money.

And you can measure that. My business of food and cable and even england were buying kind of startups and growing them. And uh, maybe we are just lucky, but we made that work.

But you know, we could see that we we could do that. So too little different about that. Now that we have mature businesses, we'd like to find something that fits buff ts model, find something already has good cash and good management. And we're looking every day and um we almost closed on a significant one. But but at the end of the day, we said now we've reached the limit, we can't pay that Price and we could have could have quick easily, but we would rather buy more butt of stock and then pay too much for Operating company.

You you did that we are talking on with this earlier. You took one public company, private in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, which was A M telecom.

Yeah, i'm teleme. And in southern ontario, we got to real efficiencies by taking a private well ended, you know became a branch plant as compared with a separate hill of the separate accounting separate I don't know how much IT wasn't that big company, but we probably took three, four million hours of overhead out of that.

which is part of the cost sort of of being public anywhere.

It's costly to be public and IT slows you down and you and you're a target for everybody. Public companies, a attract government. I've been a director of one of the major banks in canada and have been a dress or many other companies that were public.

But IT seems to make that you know living in oxford, running a private company, you're under the radar a lot compared with public and public violence and and and regulations. So when we have them all and we like our food business, we run top quality in. I used to have this discussion with doll soi, who encouraged me to to go public because that gave the liquidity for the shareholders.

But i'd like to think we could solve that problem without going public. That is really cumbersome. There's no question and very hard to make long term twenty year decisions.

One of the things you never got into with each link, to my understanding, was really buying programing, which seems to be the whole nature of the last ten or fifteen years of the business where you have the bells and the calm cast and everybody y's sort of like trying to buy up the programming, right? Why did you guys ever get in to that?

I think IT was probably a gut feeling. They were paying a lot for this programming. And do you think bill are happy that they spend a lot of money buying programing?

Now I don't think so. IT really hasn't worked out well. Were we lucky? We thought a lot about IT and they were programme we could bought. I guess, for if you know we felt we had limited resources, we'd rather buy another company. Then then by .

programing, how do you think about something like starlink? Now with rural internet access, you have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in physical assets, delivering .

when IT comes, the technology business on the wrong one day to try and answer that is very difficult to to be Better than a good fibre system in rural overcoat of rural areas because you have so many options with the in fact, we're doing business was starting because when they get down, they want to have fibre that they can feed people. Are the competition, are the customer? Uh, i'm not sure where that's going.

And there's limited capacity and these satellite to certainly, there's gonna be competition. But I take a little different view. We've got the customers and so our job is to be efficient, provide good service, make IT easy and and can we do that?

I mean, are we're gonna Carry start link that we we're a distributor of other people's products. So I think having the fiber the fiber network in our office and a half acts on the wall, we have a picture of our fiber network. It's really amazing.

And I think it's an asset that's not recognized by the financial advisers and so on of the big company. But if you look at our map, we have fiber from ireland to bermuda, the to the east coast, and then we have fired, gone west through through chicago and detroit trial and up north and an all the way to british columbia. And a lot of this we own, some of that we trade.

We might have forty eight, five bs in area and somebody want twelve of them will say, sure, we'll give you a twelve and a rule, but we need to to the detroit over the to chicago. So we either own or have trades a fibre network that's really amazing when you see IT on the wall. I remember I went to lunch in stockings with the errico guys when we were first getting in.

Sell business. And I said, when you put a set of business, will you put my cable business out of business eventually? He said, look, week got to get off those towers and in the fiber as fast as weekend.

So you know you think of it's all cell, but it's really coming to you from fiber. And wherever the cell is, there's fiber to another node and and you're picking in out. I think the cell network is a big asset for a lot of years, but voice is changing all of time.

Talk to me a little bit more about the fier and the asset nature of IT. Is IT more valuable than people think because it's harder to get permits to put new fiber in? Is IT more valuable because it's super expensive to .

put new fiber? And I think IT just gets more expensive all the time. And by now, there's a lot of fiber built to who's gona build another one, right? There's a lot of competition, but we've got this. It's cloud in capital that's there. It's gonna a big asset for a number years.

I think why did the name change from brag communications to land?

Or we called the central cable and east, and that was to keep our name often. But then we had a holding company in something named at brake communications, holding company that would what is not in the public at all some way. As we bought companies, the bride name became a little more, but in most cases, we still ran under the original name, whether IT was in sydney or summer side, or sheldon for finance reasons, on head to put them together.

The holding company communication sort of got out there, but I was never on on the walls of any of our buildings because they were all run as halifax's here, whatever. IT was truly a holding company. And then and then we've moved IT on from there. But those were kind of decisions that I was pay much attention toward, didn't care much about. We we are always said regio ging the financial .

structure. You said something interesting there, which was you didn't want your name on there. Most people, I think, would almost be the opposite. They do from an ego perspective.

Don't our name on the food business is a good classical name around the world. One of the best marketing tools. You could not even use your own name. People, caton or mccain would be a great example. Everybody knows, again, french fries.

But I was determined that from a family point of view, and my great grandson or grand dollar want to have a just a Normal job in the business, are outside of the business. They don't need the burden of of the name being everywhere. So I was quite determined to keep her name off.

And it's more so the day. But but security, you don't need a high profile in these small towns and and I think I think its just makes a Better family situation if you don't have your name plaster over everything. But I can understand why people do IT but but in my case, I prefer not to do you .

like the low profile?

Yeah, i'd like the profiles. No question about that. My son met you, and I were looking at the cottage that he was looking to buy.

IT was the former cotch of alex cowal, who is the famous artist from Morales and my university. And IT was for sale. We thought that would be nice on the covent coddle.

And we were there, and there were some other people showed up looking at on a sunday afternoon, and I said, we understand for sale. We understand that people interested. But Matthew and I were that they had no idea who we were and and they were talking this as if, you know, baby, we d know who might be buying IT. It's just nice to have a nice slow profile and they I want to get around and not have the burden of people and not as much for me as for my children and grandchildren.

When you are acquiring all these companies, whether through oxford or through each lank, did anybody ever ask for equity?

Yeah we've had the from time to time there's spent that discussion. And I faced IT here on and say, look, family companies are great to work for and we're going to pay well and you're gona feel very comfortable here. But there's no equity available on and too complicated with with the finance structures if you start giving anyway and then if they want out.

And I just didn't need that complication in my life. I think historically, there's a lot of good family companies. And there, especially in europe, there's tremendous a generation said and people are comfortable.

I tell the story about a Young guy that was a basketball player and he was recruit to on the athletic department is sent of actual university. The president of the university said, i'm probably, i'm gonna pay half of what you're earning today, but i'm gonna give you a job with twice satisfaction. And that's the most important thing in life.

He took the job, and these get great jobs, satisfaction shop. And you know, there's more life than than just to pay on below, be having a good civil place to go to work and good fellow workers. And and and a sense of working together is trying to get ahead of the other guy all the time I took brush, we've a great employee, just traumatically employee dedicated. That's what we are.

Talk to me a little bit more of that. The culture inside the companies and .

how you shape probably the best thing we've done on the culture side is everybody is dedicated to do Better next year and open to that. Now will we serve some people who have to respond with a new idea, with a negative comment, to start with that human nature, but they get through that within a day.

And then there the great team leader having a culture that you can just bring up ideas and and there is really no room for naysayers around the table. You've got just say, we got do this. Don't tell me why it's difficult to do IT you agree?

That has to be done. We should be Better than we are. So no, let's get together.

And and I always say that my team is so you're smarter. Anybody else why can't you figure? Do IT.

And that's a good chAllenge. But they are smart to anybody out. You know we don't have to bring people from torto ottawa to decide how to solve problems of oxford. There's a culture of hard work and all all of those basics and and and civility and respect. I think IT runs highly through the business and and we say the people, look, if you can't be respectful, if you're not happy here, please find a place where you can be happy.

How do you think about incentivising sort of leaders of the company?

That's always quite a chAllenge him. And we have intent of programs and and they seem to work. If I had my brothers, i'd rather pay you a million dollars, just expect you to work hard than to pay you five hundred with a five hundred bonus. And cent of seen be a way of life, but a lot of people will perform without without incense. Certainly, we have set up programs and and they do seem to motivate people.

Will john, if you want to hire me from million boxes here, i'm available starting tomorrow.

There ago, say, without a bonus.

no bone is necessary. How do you manage .

IT all or r recording this and my so called head office, which is only two hundred yard from our food processing plan, but it's an effort for me to get away from the food business and let the professional run IT. We have a very small head office and we're running several Operating companies. And and a few years ago, we started a portfolio, which is, I think, quite significant today.

I read or some tos running two billion dollars in three billion, and we're doing more than that. And so we've got big portfolio. It's done very well for us. So we have tried to streamline and keep IT simple and let the Operators run the business and and they have to deal with the people problems. And we work at .

IT who makes the investment decisions for the public companies.

We have a very small team here in our head office at the three of us said, and we we're not traders. We're not trading all then. We're trying to own like a lot of buffet.

We're just hanging on to IT. Probably i'll have IT ten years. So though I read an article on the weekend, the contrary in view. But buffets maybe burch is not doing so well, but they compare IT with apple and microsoft. And some eyelids that have done extra work by an buffet for a ten or eleven or twelve percent return were not looking for twenty or twenty five percent. We just like to buy good solid investment and let them grow.

How do you think a bit that when they're so liquid, like if they got overvalued, would you sell them? Or would you just sort of like cold bad.

basically would just hang on, you know, you wonder whether bertrade s or value today or not. He says he buys the stock when it's one point two tight book, but he's actually buying at at one point five times and buying IT consistently. So he knows something that we don't know.

So maybe you should sell the stock, but uh, they're gonna grow. We have good stocks. Some will be up, some will be down, but we don't really pretend to be able to pick the high fires that, that really are objective.

We've always said, if modest or poo, but when in interest strates were down the world, we could borrow money for one or two percent. We said like this, and opportunity we should get at this. And so we did borrowed lots of money, buy good stocks. Senate been the right thing to do.

used to go to the verge halo meetings. What are similar lessons you took away from monger and buffett?

Alright, if there's so many, so many basic lessons, I say that my kids every once in a while would buffett do that and and they think, well, I guess he wouldn't. So that the answer we we don't have to have big discussion. We're looking at the company recently in my son said I think i'd rather have more burke chair and so it's a good test until he just bring valid or ever that everyday life all the time.

What would warrant do?

What would one do that really? What are some of the .

lessons you've learned from investing in public companies?

Buffer would say that, that if you're a businessman and investing in your business, you're probably about Better stock backer because you use the same principles. But if if you're an investor, IT will help you in your business because you're using the same principles in your business. So it's just like I said, my son, this company we're looking at not not a very big company, but IT would kind of fit and my son as well, i'd rather buy buffer t.

It's a pretty good benchmark. So you use that every day and he grew this business by bike. Try other companies that he had charge money to do that. You know he he always says he does not doesn't borrow money, but but some way he he's borrowing the George money so he said cash available to buy. In my case, I built businesses from scratch and that's different and you have some different then then he would agree with the, you know he wouldn't believe the way I did. He would have but of use in charge money, but he hadn't call that .

leverage is one of the differences that strikes me from your past and and his and they both obviously worked out of exceptional well as that after the sixties. He basically seems positioned for success to matter what happened. Different businesses, yes, but like look at today, they have three hundred billion in cash on the baLance sheet, right?

If the economy crashes his win. If the economy keeps performing, he's gonna win. And if he stays the same, he's gonna. When IT sounds like he's almost positioned not predicting the future, where as when you're leavers up your you're making a prediction IT might be reliable because your revenues are constant and you you're borrowing against that.

That is different because he's relying on the market. If the market crashes my cable business systems, people still watch cable or still use cell phone. IT might go down some, but it's basically if the market crashes, people are still many blueberries now might be might be tough going, but they're not going to stop eating.

And you might have to take a year too when you don't make any money. But you know back and was seventy eight when the interest rate for eighteen and twenty percent, I have a cable business and financed and the interest rates were killed. Y, but we just hang in there, cut the cost.

And I remember say, well, if we can survive in this situation, we will be pretty good shape gone forward. I understand buffet, but I I don't know. We agree with them that money and see is a long term investor having that money sit in cash. I don't know. It's got a Crystal ball that nobody else i'd be investing in, in good stocks because the stocks go down IT doesn't matter, but I guess he's waiting for the opportunity to buy them cheap.

We will find out I and he's .

creating cash. So he obviously anticipating credit correction like he does lover up .

some businesses. They are like not to the point of a lot of people, but like the real world business has that the specifically with the predictable revenue is what are the key indicators you look at for your businesses on a regular basis to gage how well they're .

doing conder above war, a big ebt believer, the cash they generate. Um if it's through the appreciation, that's alright. How much cash were we generating and and how can we service the that and what can we buy with that cash? And is a private company that worked for us.

Know when we were building the cable business, there was lots of depreciation, but the cash flow was good and still is at the same in the food business as we invest in factories and on. And we also you know try to work the angles on on the tax situation and user depreciations Warner said in the past, not a believer in ebit, dub, but but we are we think it's the cash that the business generates that. And so we're always saying what's the mult wall ever. So we know what cash is coming because you can you can usually cut back on your capital if you need to. We're always trying to measure how much free cash the business are generating and what we have to either pay down that or to buy buy more buffet stock or or something somewhere.

How would you classify management .

style history? Ally, a lot of hands on. I really don't find the day to day Operations as much fine less as I do the investment of the funds. And so i'm enjoying moving to a head office role as compared with but I still like to monitor, uh, we still monthly meetings with all over major investments.

So probably a little people would say a little too much detail and but cut, when you're sign of the checks on the notes, you want to know what's going on. And so I would rather be well in from rub front so that I can help with the ship problem, then come to the problem late, Operating without surprises. It's pretty important .

to make this is a trend in business, sort of like getting away from the details as you move up in. The organize .

friend of mine one time said you can run any company with five pots on the back of a cigarette package that was years ago, but that's really basic. You know, just what are the key items is revenue, is sales as a margin and and cost of a big believer. Bangalore cost produce doesn't matter what you do.

There's no excuse to waste money. Your low cost, you're gonna stay in business that tough times. The key points are different, every business.

So I would save, for instance, in the food business at all about costs because you know what the revenues going to be because we don't what are going to have a frost where the currently got to change or whether somebody else got a big crop or or a poor cop. But if we keep our cost in good shape, we will be alright now on run. And I would say in cable, you know you are always have develop cost, but capital, probably the biggest thing. And and the cable business because you can make big mistakes and and you don't get spending out and say a big lion dollars to get into programing, and that just didn't work out. Every company I would say every business has you know the five points might be .

different year eighty four, now eighty .

four and you're .

still work in full days.

Try do yeah, I do. I do. I enjoying IT and I work a little every night and reading about stocks.

Are reading this a stop? Yeah, I guess i'm not working quite as much I used to, but I could share with you i've given some money to an entrepreneur university of print center island a Cathy cobo was a former premier there and and the business schools named after and SHE was a friend of my university and a great person. And so we gave some money to the to an entrepreneur school.

And I said, on the condition that you put seven old on the wall, what's seven old? That's the hours entrepreneurs have to work every week. I love IT, not fifty, but seventy. And after hours, do work seventy.

What role did judy plan? All of us, i'd say she's .

a great mother. SHE spent a full time other we have four children. I don't know whether SHE didn't have interest in the business or I didn't want to share IT, but I do like go and home and not talking about the business.

We have four great children and we grandchildren. She's been just a very support of mother. I travel the world for years and SHE brought up her children. Her role is a supportive role, but not directly in the business.

Is there anything looking back that you .

would have done differently? Probably if you said, sure, you've done differently, baby. But on the other hand, I was very comfortable doing what I did, and I worked hard.

But but we bought our first cottage. And theory was that judie could be at the cottage was the kids and I could work, which work out well. And basically our our philosophy, life and so on, I wouldn't change. We've lived a low profile at the rural community day, and and and at the same time at the ability do whatever we wanted to.

What role did focus play?

Focus on business is a big deal. When IT comes to business principles. There is in one day bigger than focus.

Just stay at IT and work at IT. It's amazing how hard work brings you. Good luck after while focuses absolutely critical public in the biggest, the biggest single principle you can have the business.

Is there anything about decision making that you've learned that you think most people mess or would benefit from .

your knowledge? Stick to your living. And i've seen a number of friends are associated to made the first mayor and then thought they know how to make the second with these and they would get off focus, go buy another company they did know anything about ah and just just not focused on on what they know.

I think it's fine too diversly, but you have to be careful how you do that. Frank soi, when I was in university reading a financial times, I don't know which one and and I read a quote, where is always keep the back door open. So so although we were levering through these format, appears the real that load was in cable where the cash flow is quite consistent.

The mistake many people make is is they have business. They make the first man and dollars, and now they get in to things they do nothing about and too big way. I mean, if you won't test the water, that's one thing.

I am a great believer and and having all the answers, no, you say the guy that asked the question looks Better than the guy that has the answers. And so i'd like to have the questions and but people get to have the answers, you know you with all then around the associations that want to they make a little money. They they know more than this guy. In your experience.

how often have those people self corrected after they've started to go down that path?

I I haven't seen much self correction and a guy that really don't well, when he speak up, uh, you listen to me when he goes broke, nobody listens what he is saying more. So maybe to make you didn't make you smarter and lose that didn't make a silver to me.

But the role of patients and long term thinking in terms of your success looking back over the last fifty, sixty years.

patient is a real virtue. I don't know whether I have enough, but but i've had to have a lot because we we've built our team. We have lots of imports now. But on the early days, we built her team on on locals that you know didn't have as much experiences, people from away and and some have turned out to be great entrepreneurs and but yet they're patients bring them along and and get them h exposed.

One guy said to me because I was I was trying to point out the way I wanted to report no guys is yeah but john, your outside and see in all these boards and reports, we don't see that, although you smart just didn't have the imagine but today, tremendous excited. But but that does take a little time and patients respect several day. Those words are are big in our culture.

One of the things that you've said that I was most intreated about that gives me a lot of hope, is that most fortune made after fifty.

I was a member of Y P. O. like. But weather entrepreneurs, and you get rock boat fifty. And I remember saying, you know, for me, this just the beginning, because I built a base, now even really made a money.

But I built quite a base, and now I got to take that base and move on most of my real equity way you would measure. IT has come after sixty, but before that, I was building land bases in factories and people and and but IT didn't shop at the bottom line, but I was building a real base of asset. And then I could say that after seventy, we've got a lot Better still, could got the base going.

And and like the portfolio we have, I didn't really get started until seventy five maybe. And we played, I shouldn't say played around. We are maybe a significant at portfolio on some people might, but but not one that you would see written up in new york times to some.

But when I decided when when these interest strates were so cheap that isn't have to be a genus to or or one or two percent in best and dividends at five. So we did could have sit back and then nothing and not everybody was doing that. We have aboard. And I was explaining to them what my my yeah thought were and how I thought that would work and what the downside was. Well, we've just plugged away and we ve got a couple of bin of equally or more now and in the portfolio, all that came late in life.

What role does the board play?

I don't want to downplay the board, but one of the great things the board does this bring discipline to our management team. The team loved up the board come and like to present, but they also have to be professional about IT. So it's it's forced our team to be more professional.

Now we get lots of wise comments too, but the the discipline that they bring by the board, the the different leaders coming before the board, presenting what they're doing, answering the questions, that's that's great discipline. I use the board, different people on the board, different times as listening post. I wouldn't without.

I'm a big found of private company boards. I don't think they slow us down and decision making, but we won't make a big decision. We don't like to surprise the board that might be, you know, smaller decisions.

We just make a move on. But if IT significant, we like the board to be primed and advanced to what we're think about what we might do. So we kind of try to Operate with the surprises. You've mentioned interest .

rates a few times as somebody who's lived through basically the highest interest rates and the lowest interest rates we've ever seen. How do you think about interest rates and how they shelter?

Shouldn't be. They've been a big, big factor. I me was being eighteen or twenty percent one stage for for loans didn't have has made loans, thank god.

And then when they're cheap, cheat, you least these rates have been exception shaped and and then when they get to be six percent every dots, so expensive cheese, I never dropped that I ever see six percent. Certainly I didn't allow that to slow me down. You know, it's kind of Normal, but now were coming back.

That doesn't allow leverage and and IT affects to the portfolio. Some you might buy few more dividend stocks of the money cheap, if if the dividends twice. What what got friends are. Yeah, pretty. You can get returned without we out to my tourist, pretty easily itself.

It's my cost of punch. How have you learned to deal with success? I don't know.

I my lifestyle that much different now than however .

you kept in that way. There's no yachts, no mention.

Well, we have a few too many homes. We don't abuse that. And certainly, you know, we are, uh, you know, hate to admit, but we have a plane, but that keeps me working.

I couldn't be traveling around of with your porch. My age and my help. One beauty of living in a small town where no help from doing down out like I could be gone to dinner every night now, vex. But the beauty living years, I just put on the invitation, sorry, I might send my executive persistance sense a lot. The low profile helps, but that the wear and tear of go on the turn, go on the reception, you know.

takes time away. A I grew back to focus.

That's exactly right. I don't feel any different of about myself now, and I did thirty years ago because we have a place and why and so on, and where next door to the americans. I would say that the business community in the U.

S. If they make ten years, they spend like they have one hundred. Canadians make ten, they hide.

That seems to me the culture of the U. S. IT. IT is making money to spend that. I never thought of IT that way. I'd rather, you know, we have a significant foundation to typical of state freeze. But I kept a portion of myself that that is going to a foundation for public good.

And so that's one of the reasons I keep working is to is to be able to really, really leave a foundation and the same time the children are more than they need or more than I should have probably. But but we're onna have a significant foundation and to work for that as compared to work for a big yard. I don't know how you measure those things, but that will give me satisfaction anyway.

Are there any policy changes you would make to encourage more entrepreneurship and business in canada?

There are so many road blocks with every turn, my friend walls mccan, one of his songs, will don't let the basterds get you down. Well, I don't know who the baking chart, but there's somebody hope they are trying to slow you down every day and it's quite a statement. So yet worked through that tax policies and canada aren't bad.

Jurisdictional hold up at the border, you know with all these border deals is terrible. I'm in an environmentals. We have big woods lots and and and i'm really an environmentally but but if you're not careful, they'll take IT over.

You know, we had a woodlot when you this particular case, he was a thousand acre wood lot, and we were building roads through IT to do silva cultural work great for the future. And I went to see where they put a bridge chain. And IT wasn't a bridge, but I was half bridge in a half rock.

They ended up costing seventy five thousand dollars. And when I was, there was no water and IT, and there is only water and IT. Maybe the month of April, when I came down off the hill so they no fish and yeah but they make IT.

They could do things that are absolutely no common sense to and we could have had a nice rock way that you just traveled through. But you know so there's just things like that. That's a minor issue, but it's irritating.

So there does seem to be general lack of common science. And in most regulations around the world at this point, it's like sediment, right? IT started out with good, but IT keeps adding and adding and adding and nobody would have chosen to get to the place where we're at. And yet here we are and we .

keep sort of adding, setting, add to IT. And the most irritating comment that you get from the civil services, but this is the regulation ah don't talk to me about common sense this the regulation yes. You know when the people wrote the regulations, they couldn't envision thing, but then the regulation covers everything, just bypasses common sense. And i've heard that now is the regulation. You know, we're just going by the regulation drive crazy.

John, really appreciate the time today for this conversation. We always end on the same question, which is, what is success for you?

Suck for me. This is the development of a great team. And in many cases, we have people that work in this factory through high school, university, came back to work with us and are now running the company.

That to me, real success, we have the same thing in our other businesses where we develop at least think we have home grown leaders that are competing with the with the world and doing IT very well. And so real successes is developing people so that they can add value. My my filter is always how can we add value today? Or if you can develop good people ah, they can add value and add that society or any way you want to judge that.

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