#2174 - Annie Jacobsen
02:55:11 Share

The joe rogan experience.

Again, hi j, what's .

happened for me back? A lot of happening.

my pleasure. I heard a lot about your book. I haven't read IT, but i've heard a lot about your book from a lot .

of people that you freaked ed out. Okay, well, hopefully you can read IT and then you can decide if you're of the freaked out crowd or of the really freak out .

crowd or there's only two options.

I think so IT doesn't end well. That's the boiler alert.

Okay, hold the book up is called the nuclear war. Yeah, there were a scenario.

in a very plausible scenario, from what I understand from all the defense officials I interviewed.

What motivated to write this?

wow. Six previous books on war weapons. U. S. National security secrets. Imagine how many people told me they dedicated their lives to preventing nuclear world war? ray.

And so during the previous administration, fire and fury, rta, C, I began to think, what happens if deterrence fails that idea of prevention? What happens? And I took that question to the people who advise the president who work at track com, who, you know, coming under the nuclear sub forces, and learned that IT doesn't end well. Not only does IT not end well, five billion people are dead at the end of seventy two minutes.

Jesus, you begin .

to realize when you, where you quickly realize, as you read the book, that there .

you can just made a weird .

noise ah yeah.

coral, it's the animal .

humor in in difficult subject. There's literally hundreds of thousands of people in nuclear command and control who practice twenty four or seven, three, sixty five. What would happen if deterrence failed and we had a nuclear war? They are practicing this show, and it's like talk about being behind the veil. No one knows is why I think the response to this book has been out for three months, has been so extraordinary and from both sides of the oil, because people now are beginning to realize if nuclear war begins, IT doesn't end until there is a nuclear and IT happens so fast, there is no quickly going to your secret bunker. You have .

yeah that all that nonsense. These people think like his oker is building a bunker and why is going to survive? He's building A A hurricane shelter.

And also, unless he happened to be there in the exact moment when all of this went down.

you'd have to know in advance we're about the launch. The the whole thing is terrifying. It's it's also I don't see a way that like if you think about the time meine between one thousand nine hundred and forty five and today, um it's kind of extraordinary that no one has launched a nuke.

No one's but IT almost seems like a matter of time, like it'll be a blip in history like we look at IT now, oh, because of mutually assured self destruction or mutually assured destruction that was prevented people from using nuclear weapons. Like but win in now until now. Like what is eighty years in terms of human history? It's nothing.

It's a tiny little blink. It's a little nothing. And I could go side ways at any moment. And then we're back to the key era.

We are hunter gathers again, in the words of the who, author of nuclear winter. But I think what's also crazy to your point, about one thousand and forty five years when this was all set up, when the nuclear arsenals were beginning. And I take their reader through IT really quickly, because I want them to just get to what happens at nuclear launch.

I mean, the book is really about nuclear launch to nuclear winter. But the build up is fascinating because, first of all, IT happened so incredibly fast, and IT happened under incredibly secret, classified terms. So there was no like outside opinion.

And originally, nuclear war was set up to be fought and won, which itself is absurd. And we know that now. So the rules of the game has fundamentally changed, and yet the systems are all the same. That's what I think the most dangerous component of today versus lets. In nineteen fifty two went, the thermonuclear began.

And the systems are the what mean .

is so the system of nuclear war, this idea that, well, for, okay, so to let's start with some basic facts, there is a nuclear triad, you know what that OK to try out, really simple. Three, so we have missile silos are called icbms inside of them, four hundred of them. Then we have nuclear powered nuclear submarines that launch nuclear missile.

There are fourteen of them. Then we have the bomber force, sixty six nuclear capable bombers tried. The president chooses what, what elements of that trial he's going to use when he launches a counter attack.

If we ever are attacked, that system essentially exists. That was what was being developed in the fifty days. The only difference was in the old days IT was we're going actually use these in fighting, win a nuclear war.

And now it's we're going to have these all sitting around ready to launch. We have one thousand seven hundred and seventy nuclear weapons on ready for launch status, joe. They can be launched some of them in sixty seconds.

cheese. And they are all pointed. They are all do they need a coordinate? Do they need or they are all like aimed at a specific area .

already important question. They're technically targeted to sea. I did. So they don't have a specific target. But when when the command goes, they .

accidentally go off. I would see cheese is cry, imagining you out there on a sailboat. Yes, to join your time. What a beautiful place to be in middle ocean. You see its.

um. What do you think about the stories of U F O S hovering over nuclear basis and shutting down their weapons? I know you've done a lot of research on this stuff. How much of that is bullshit?

No, I actually haven't done a lot of research on that specific narrative. I know of that. I know of IT for sure. And it's I think I mean, I always approach the UFO phenomenon with or I tried to at least would like the ee of or the point of view of coral Young, this idea that it's that what leads here is our perception of things and our sort of deep shadow self of fear.

And once the nuclear weapon was invented, man, i'm in our grandparents, had to confront this new, fundamental, new reality that just simply didn't exist before. And then IT was that with the atomic weapons, and then in the fifties, once thermo nuclear weapons were invented and the thermo nuclear weapon is centrally, an atomic thermocline weapon is so powerful, IT uses an atomic bomb like from heroes a as its trigger ing mechanism. And so the order of magnus de of destruction of of in an incident, and according to carl yang, who looked at the U.

F, O phenomenon in the nuclear weapons phenomenon, hand in hand, encourage anyone to read his stuff about IT, because he has a much sort of, you know, birds I ve you of IT all about why that's so terrifying to people. So the narratives, to my eye, the narratives of nuclear, of alien ships hovering over nuclear basis. I don't I have never spoke to a first hand witness to experience that. But I would, I would see that in terms of the narrative of court Young.

so how Young's perception was that he believed that he was essentially people perceiving these things, or allusion ating these things. And IT was like, almost like a mass luCindy part of the.

I don't know if he went that far. I think he left a lot more open to interpretation. I think his, my read of his analogy, gy, was more like the way that hundreds of years ago, or thousands of years ago, in a Christian, and I was first being developed, people saw existential threats as part of the narrative of god. So his, my read of coral Young, is that he's saying now, in the mechanised, modern world, the existential threats, the sort of domination, is tied to machines which is tied to, is easily tied to little machines from more big machines from outer space. That was his take on IT, which I think is interesting.

is interesting. But also, Young wrote .

this one sixties.

Yeah, yeah. So I think we know a lot more now than we knew that mean this like the way the reason one bring this up as like the people that have hope. One of the hopes is that aliens are observing us and they're going to wait to we are about to do something really stupid and then they are going to come down and shut everything .

down that that is an interesting narrative too, and that sort of but again, that's a bit to my eye, like the dare's x bokan, a idea that god would intervene and you save the, save the faithful. And or rather in this situation might be that he's going to save those people that are paying attention.

We'll just save the human race from its falling. What is carl, I think.

or likes my use?

Oh yeah, he likes to play crowded and get enough exercise this morning. Martiall wasn't here is not worn out yet. Um so the Young thing is interesting. But like we know more now, we know more now about the possible other dimensions that we can access. We know more now about planets in the goldy lock zone.

We know more now about all of these whistle blowers that have come out and talked about crashed retrieve ment programs where they reach back, engineering these things and trying to understand what these things are dianetics work, where she's talking about, how there essentially donations and these crafts are donations, that if people are being given these things so they could see this extraordinary technology and try to figure out how to make IT. Um but that's one of the only ways that I like. If we did get to a point that we launched nuclear weapons at each other, everything is over so fast.

If I was in the alien species, intelligent species from somewhere else and I recognized that this is a real possibility and at the earth has all these different forms of life other than human beings that gonna get destroyed as well, now it's going to wipe out, who knows how many different species? I mean, it's, it's gonna kill everything and even the people that are left over. What do you left with any, whatever, two billion people that still survive? Where and what? What you have left? What is the environment like? Like how polluted is everything? how? What kind of mutations are going to come from their offspring?

I get into that in the end of the book, so I write the book. And essentially three acts like the first twenty four minutes, the next twenty four minutes, the last twenty four minutes in the nuclear winter. So nuclear winter is very well described by a fellow called professor brian tune, who I interview in the book.

He was one of the original five authors. Have to remember the nuclear winter theory of our sort of high school years. Yes, right.

So that was carl sagan was the lead author on the paper tune, was the Young student. And he's dedicated decades looking at nuclear winter. Now, originally I was very pop paid by the defense department.

IT was said, this is soviet propaganda. This is never gonna happen. And the computer systems and climate modeling have changed to the degree where we can see not only as nuclear winter, what was thought in the eighties, it's actually much worse.

So thereby, originally they thought there would be a year of ice sheet across large bodies of water, and from iwa to ukraine, across the middle titus of the globe. Now that could be up to seven or ten years. So think about that much frozen land for that long. You have the the death of agriculture, you have A T like you are talking about, and you have the complete disruption of the ability for people to grow food and eat food. And so man reverts to his hunter gathering state.

And this is all hunting and .

gathering exactly. Well, exactly. And also you have man has to go underground. I take you through what this is like in in detail because it's so bizarre to think about that you have a man made problem, nuclear weapons.

And yet this is people are not paying attention to the fact that whatever is created by man essentially would theoretically have a man made solution like there is a solution to the nuclear weapons threat. It's not, although the results of a nuclear war would be very much like an android striking the united states or the world anywhere. There's a solution to nuclear war. There's a solution called disarmament. You could we have a total of twelve thousand, two hundred and some other nuclear weapons.

And is the concern that if we did that, other countries would not do that would be differences?

absolutely. But you know, things happen in sort of inches and feet. They don't have to happen overnight. Once upon a time, there were seventy thousand nuclear warhead in nineteen .

eighty secs.

We are, well, we were making progress until this past year. And these trees are all, you know, at risk. And people are just very busy seeing everybody else as the enemy this past year.

specifically because of what.

well, you know, putin saying he's not going to be involved in the treaty anymore. Don't trump said he was pulled us out of the treats. So there's like leaders are threatening.

This is all on the table right now. IT could and should be looked out. But when do you remember back when we were in high school, when reagan and gorbachev ve got together for the recovery?

MIT, remember, was the beginning of a movement, tored disarmament. There was that was the beginning of this idea of, wait a minutes, seventy thousand nuclear weapons is just an accident waiting to happen. And so we are at twelve thousand five hundred today because of that.

And we should also say there have been some very close calls.

The secretary general said last year is something we are one misunderstanding, one, this communication away from nuclear and isolation. He's not kidding.

You know, there was this one incident where the soviet union thought that we were attacking them, and there was one guy who resisted launching a counter strike, and that one guy prevented nuclear isolation. One guy said, I think this is an error. This doesn't make sense.

I'm not doing this. And that one guy saved us. I don't remember what the incident was like. What do you remember? Yeah, what was the exact issue?

So his name was patrol, and he, and he was in one nine hundred eighty three. So what's even more remarkable about him as this was at a time of, you know, absolute animosity, enmity between the two nations. IT was a really precarious time in the world, and petroff s was in a early warning rate artist, like an outside of moscow that reads data of possible incoming nuclear missile.

And he saw what he, what the radar screen, the radar scope was reading as five I C, B M. Coming from wing five. He knew that we would send a thousand missile if we were going to launch. And so he questioned the data, which is just so remarkable in its own conception. When you think about that, he questioned IT and he didn't send IT up the chain of command as as as a missile .

that so what was IT?

Well, I get into this in the book, which is which is terrifying. So okay, let me back up for a second of how good our technology is. So we have a system in space, a satellite system called sibs space, space in for red satellite system.

It's like the poll review of the twenty first century IT is parked over our enemies that have nuclear weapons. And I can see and detect a nuclear launch of an icb m in a fraction of a second show confirmed fact. That's why nuclear war begins and ends in seventy two minutes, because the Sierra satellite system seized the launch, and then the U.

S. Nuclear command and control goes into into begins. And by the way, an icb m cannot be redirected and IT cannot be recalled.

What about these hypersonic weapons that can adjust their trajectory? They can go, they can move to different places like they look, it's going to arizona.

IT goes to chicago. So ballistic missile or hypersonic, so a little bit of a mno where they're like and also a hypersonic missile was just, say, IT went from russia to denied IT IT might take an hour. A ballistic missile launched from a launched pad outside moscow takes twenty six minutes and forty seconds to get to washington, dc.

That numbers not going to change as gravity. That's physics. That's what I was in one thousand fifty eight, fifty nine.

And that's what IT is today. But isn't the new technology that I can alter the course?

Yes, but our okay. So if you if you go without logic and you say what, I can move around. So it's would be harder to shoot down, as I explained in the book. And again, as was relate to me by defense officials, we can't shoot down ballistic missiles, long range ballistic missile, with any kind of certainty .

or accuracy.

That is, the iron done is almost like terrible for nuclear war. You for people to understand how dangerous nuclear wars, because the iron done can shoot down short range missile and mid d range missile. So even the U.

S. Edge systems out on the sea, the navy systems, shut down some of those iranian drones, but they can't shoot down ballistic missile you want like the five minute or the thirty second ballistic missile. Sure lesson, because this is what I need I write for the layman.

You know, I think part of the reason why nuclear war is not spoken about in the general public is because it's set up to be intimidating. You know, you'll hear a lot of defense people in analysts using very esoteric language and and IT kind of excludes the average joe or jane, joe or any. So I ask really basic questions like how is a ballistic missile work? And it's very simple that twenty six minutes and forty seconds I told about.

So there's three phases of a ballistic missile that launches. IT has boost phase. First five minutes.

Imagine a rocket. You've seen launches that fire coming out the bottom that boost the rocket for five minutes. That's when it's detectable from space.

Then IT enters mid course phase, which is gona be twenty minutes marking across the globe to its target. That is the only place where the interceptor missile can get IT, if I can. And it's five hundred miles up and it's traveling at something like mock twenty three, fourteen thousand miles.

Okay, so that's twenty minutes. And then the last phase is called terminal phase, appropriately so, one hundred seconds when the war head, the nuclear warhead reentered, the atmosphere boom, hits its, explodes over its target. The interceptor system is designed to take out the missile in middy's phase.

So we have forty four intercept tors. Remember I told you we have one that we have a thousand seventeen hundred, let's say, nuclear missile on ready for launched atas. Russia has about the same. We have forty four inner sector missals.

How are forty four inner sect or missiles gonna go up against more than a thousand russian nuclear weapons coming at us? Never mind the fact that each intercept tor has a fifty percent shootdown rate, and that's by the missile defense agency spokesperson. So there's this perception that we have a system like the iron done that could take out these incoming missile, and we simply don't, which is why when nuclear war begins, IT only ends in nuclear arms again.

cheese. Who how disturbing was IT for you to write this, do all this research and come to these conclusions and realized that were a lot were shaped than anybody thinks we are.

I mean, you know, you take your when you're reporting or writing, you kind of take your head off of the emotional or the sentimental part of things were, you know, the mother and me. You can't think like that. You just have to tell the story. I believe, I also believe that if I can be as factual and dramatic as possible, then then I will have the most readers, which is the point, you know, I am actually not trying to save the world as a journalist. I'm trying to get you to read what I write because I found its super interesting reporting IT and learning about IT, and also the whole process for me that I think is the most interesting is going to some of these people who are truly some of the smart scientists in the world, and getting them to explain that in the most base. Like I say, you have to tell IT me like i'm a kid because I don't have a science mind and that part is so that excitement, part of IT baLances out with the terror of IT because I I do also understand why most people don't wanna know about this.

It's too dreadful, but they also don't wanted know because they end up feeling so looked down upon, I think if they ask basic questions like way to IT, how does a missile work or like you said, what's working at the hypersonically, shouldn't we invest in well, who really wants to be lectured? And so what I try to do is condense the lectures that I receive about how all worked into this dramatic form, which is how I landed on this format for this spoke, which I think is really effective, which is giving IT to you. Like a scenario like this is what would happen.

And then going back to all my sources, I mean, like, okay, here's an example. We have even talked about submarines, but the submarines are completely, you cannot find them in the, in the sea. There are still beyond staff. I interviewed the former commander of the nuclear sub forces that I called animal corner, never given an interview like this before, and I said, like, how hard is IT to find a nuclear armed sub? And he said, any is easier to find a grip, fruition, ed object in space, then a nuclear stop under the same.

And these things are.

by the way, I have a map in the back of the book that shows you how close our adversary enemies, call them you will, china and russia, how close they come to the east coast in the west cost of the united states regularly, which means that reduces that launch time I told you about of twenty six minutes, forty seconds. That reduces IT down to sort of ten minutes or less.

What did you think when you saw the so IT subs that were outside the cube?

I thought, wow, I mean, when I began reporting this book a couple years ago, never did I think that I would see that while I was talking about my book with people like you um after publication never but in the same manner I never thought I would hear the president of russia threatening to use a nuclear weapon I mean, he said he's not kidding that he might use w md. That was, that was his surface quote.

Did you specify like in what way .

he just said W. M, D, against america? yeah. Well, you know, having to do with intervention in ukraine. yeah.

I'm sure you saw the the drones that blew up on a beach, the bombs that were launched that killed civilians in russia. There were us.

You didn't see this is like recently yeah no jc.

we could find that. Um but russian civilians, including one Young girl there were showing in this article, were killed by these cluster bombs. They were launched by drones that are hours you know that ukraine house are now they're launched.

Them aren't rushed in civilians. It's like here IT is crimea. Video shows russian tourist flea beach is what is that word? A T A C M S, bombs rain down.

What does that mean? Do you know what that means? A T A C M S.

well, i'm guessing there small cluster bombs that are in the nose code of the warhead make that just .

to read the whole thing, Jimmy. Um the video shows the beach in uh, sala stop o crimea, which was struck by series of explosions on june twenty three. The footage capture by security camera shows hundreds of people beginning to run away from the water before the impact of cluster warhead starts.

What's happening in ukraine is so profoundly dangerous for everyone .

is the scene right here. So these things just drop down. On the water. This pure terrorism.

Well, it's also remarkable that we have so much available footage and so much in journalism that people can see these events and discuss them. He says. Here the the event was .

caused by russian air defenses shooting down a series of crusted Warren ad missile, one of which altered course. As a result, the russian ministry of defense said that four, the five missiles laws were shot down, adding another missile as a result of the impact of air defense systems at the final stage, deviated from the flight path with the warhead exploding in the air over the city.

The detonation ation of the fragmentation Warren ad of the fifth american missile in the air LED to numerous casualties among civilians and. um. What was do do we know what this was about where they were launching them towards?

I don't know. I don't know. I'm not following the ground war in ukraine right now, as with my focus on this. But what I do know is that the ratcheting up of the of the rhetoric and the use of third party weapons systems is complicating an already incredibly volatile situation.

This says a spokesperson for the USA department denied the accusation, saying that the claims were ridiculous and hyperbolic. The U. S. Supplies weapons to ukraine in the ongoing war with russia and recognizes crimea as a part of the ukraine despite russia's anx ation, ukraine has previously outline plans, use long range weapons supplied by amErica in crimea specifically to target infrastructure supporting the russian invasion.

It's just terrifying stuff. Just it's terrifying because IT can all be happening while you're just going about your business, walking your dog. You have no idea, although the entire world is in grave danger.

You mean when if things suddenly go nuclear?

Yeah well, even this, just like these escalates.

Well, I think the big picture that frightens me most is that when we see the president of russia going to the president of north korea, our two air quotes arch enemies right now having a new alliance. And then I consider that the current president of the united states hasn't spoken to the president of russia in two years.

And I think back to that time in history, what's known as the region reversal, where reagan went from this incredible hawk to learning about nuclear weapons, in of all things, an abc television movie called the day after having the crap scared out of him and then realizing this is the president of the united states, realising we cannot continue on this path. IT is two days things, and that is why ragging reached out to garbage. And that's why we have the recent examine.

This is called the ragan reversal. No another is my point, reagan, who the access of evil speech, like this idea of seeing your enemy as the, as the arch evil violin, had to change for him when he understood nuclear war by seeing a film. And so when I looked at today and I consider that the current president hadn't isn't speaking to the president of russia, IT doesn't make any sense to someone like me.

That's probably why I wrote this book like, please understand this. And I one has to imagine that the current president, with all his decades in office, understands all of this. And so I don't fundamentally understand why there is no communication IT is way too dangerous.

Hence your the kind what you just showed us. You know the facts will come in of whose weapon systems those are. But either way, the perception, to your point, the fact that the perception, a misperception could ign nuclear war, could ignite that situation that is unresponsive, that should be astonishing to all of us. It's terrible.

Well.

it's terrifying. But the one hopeful part of IT would be, again, going back to the regan. The regan reversal, by the way, is the only glimmer of hope I ever found in all of us.

Don't you think, though, that politics in general, and certainly world leadership, especially in nine six leadership, is much more compromise today than IT was then. And a guy like reagan doesn't really exist today.

Tell me what you mean. You say compromised.

I mean, the military defense contractors are making so much money, then they wanted continue making so much money. And they have great influence over the politicians and over policy and over what gets done. And this money that they don't want to start making is completely dependent upon the continuing to build, continuing to sell, continuing to to have these weapons and future systems and more advances systems and Better systems.

And there is so much money in momentum behind this that I don't know if there's a ragging available now. I don't know if that's an option. If there's a person that can have some sense that can say we are on a path to self destruction and we need to stop and we need to reverse this path.

You know, you're going to have people in the military, in the defense department in that are being influenced by these contractors. There is like this. There's plenty of places we can move things around, get things done.

And don't you know about these guys, these guys bad guys, we can get over there. We need do something about this. We need do something about that.

And this escalation is motivated by the fact that they're making fucking on goddy amount of money by making and selling these weapons. And this is a massive part of our economy. It's a massive part of the structure that runs the government itself.

absolutely. So then you have to ask yourself, what is also going to happen now that these big contracting organizations, boeing, raytheon, lucky, are now being threatened by silicon valley, by the new defense contractors that are coming into the pipeline that are threatening their contracts because they can do IT faster and cheaper.

And so I fear that you will see even more of that entrenchment that you're talking about, even more of the the bureaucracy turning out more weapons under the guys because rap? Yeah because it's a competition. no.

So which is that double edge? Sorry, because competition is what makes amErica great. I believe in that truth. no.

But but I I do also think what's interesting is like someone I interviewed here in the book was leon banana. So not only was his former sacked off, but he was former C I. Achieve, and he was former White house chief of staff under clinton.

And in our interview, I learned a lot from him about those three kind of elements of the national security advising the president, you know, being sacked after being in charge of all this, and are being C I aef IT from the intelligence point of view. But what was even more interesting about interviewing panada was that he said to me at the end of our interview, it's good that you're doing this. The american people need to know that's a direct quote from him.

So here's a guy who has spent his entire life entrenched in that system that you're talking about. And then outside of IT, once he retires, puts on his, shall we say, grandfather's had the human hat and is suddenly like this is really going in the wrong direction. I would hope that, that would lead to more people thinking wisely about what IT is they're doing when they're in office, is far as nuclear war or is concerned.

Thing that concerns me is they're not good at anything. Why would they be good at this? But tell me, IT brings me back to eyes and hour speech when he last left office.

You know, the the threat of the military industrial complex, warning the united states that there is an entire system that is now in place, that profits of a war and wants war and wants to keep creating these weapons and wants to keep equating things because that's that's their business. That's the business. We're not good at regulating any businesses.

We're not good at anything that's detriment when I could, regulating overfishing of the oceans. We're not good at environment. We're not good at energy.

We're not good at manufacturing. We're we're not good at regulating anything. Everything we've done has been a four profit thing.

When we allowed jobs to go overseas and designated american manufacturing, that there was note regulation of that didn't think that out. I didn't do a good job of managing that. No, they completely devastated manufacturing here.

And we saw during the covet crisis, during the lockdowns, oh my god, we can't get anything because everything's overseas. Everything's made overseas. Medicine of computer chips, everything. We do not good at anything.

But what's what's I I agree with you, the first part of eyes and hour speech is spot on, and that is absolutely true. And yet at the same time, this is why I think people stop talking about things like nuclear war or they move on to another more interesting subject that might be more entertaining because who really wants to hear about this problem? That seems to be cyclical in there is because you have to have a strong defence. You have to have a national security, otherwise you get walked all over. I think people kind of agree that, yeah, you can't really have a peace force, right?

Agree, especially with the the state of the world.

right? So but the second part of ice and hours speech is important to mean it's why I get people to talk to me in my books because he says there is an antidote to the military industrial complex. And that is an alert and knowledgeable citizens, which is, in essence, what we're doing now by talking about this was what you do on your podcast, by having an alert and logical citizens.

And the word alert, I think, means engaged you, you have to be able to talk to people in a way that they can. Oh, oh, that's interesting. Why don't understand how that works? How does that work and have these conversations? So in that regard, I would say that's a positive sign in the right direction. I think people are much more open to having an opinion about of all this then they weren't, say, the one thousand nine hundred and fifties, but there's a baLance because now opinions somehow seems to be taking over the department of facts in many regards.

The department of facts is interesting to .

look on IT.

Yeah IT just doesn't seem like the general public is completely aware of how dangerous y threats are and how close we are inching towards IT. Like even the nuclear subs of the coastal cuba was barely a blip in the new cycle. You was replaced by Taylor swift and her boyfriend. You is like, IT just goes in and .

out quickly. Well, it's also that, I mean, joe, I do not write about politics. I just don't talk about I talk about prodest, the president of the united states, and I talk about moves that certain presidents made. But I am amazed at how much time is spent talking about these two individuals and their families and what they did for breakfast that I find, you know, at least the tailors gift of IT is like, slightly entertaining, your opposite of thing. But the way in which we, amErica seems to me, have almost become like, you know, the way that the UK used to be obsessed with the royal family, such a degree where.

yes, that's our royals, celebrities and nonsense. And whether the president who is a celebrity or congress person become a celebrity, you know, A O, C, it's not about her house. So this is about her saying, stupid shit. It's like that talk keep people care about. So a reality show, and we're kind of conditioned by reality shows, right? We have so many that we watched and so many things that we pay attention to that are nonsense that distract us, that we like to sort of apply those same viewing habits to the whole world.

But i'm amazed by the phenomenon of podcast, I must say, because i'm old enough to remember when they went around. And this was so you and I do have, I have one foot publishing, obviously author of seven books, but also write television. And so I exist in these two different worlds of media that are, you could say, traditional media forms. And when you consider how how radically these different forms of communication are changing, that I sell as many e books and audio books as I do heart covers. And I have a feeling that if those markets didn't exist, I would sell half as many books if that makes sense.

yes.

And so then when you throw the podcast and think, I cannot tell you how many people know about my work as a journalist, as a national security reporter, because of podcast, that is remarkable to me. IT makes things so much more accessible to so many more people. Yeah, everybody's listening to a podcast, driving around listening, know when they're at the gym, when they're on a hike.

And if someone who cares about an alert and knowledge, able citizens as a fundamental, first of all, because I think if people people that are curious tend to be less furious, you know, if you can get your curiosity says, say, he said, you don't become so angry. And so I, and again, I have to be an eternal optimist, particularly writing the kind of books that I do, or would just be, you know, I would be my, my thinking would would take a negative turn. And so I am an eternal optimist, and I do look to conversation and new media as a means to a Better way, or a means to a way out of this kind. I think that I believe the tide will turn.

Certainly, one of the only uncompromised conversations available and IT happens to be the biggest you know, that's the wireless thing because the mainstream media is just phone apart. No one cares anymore. No one believes them at the faith in mainstream media.

The trust in main strip media is an all time low and podcast are at all time high. There's how many of mother Jimmy? Like five million. I think there's something like that like monthly yeah yeah.

But also what's remarkable is you hear people often say like that people have lost their attention spans. They watch tick to, well, I mean, people listen to your podcast for three hours. That is a very long attention span.

And I find that kind of like brain conditioning really valuable, because I will listen to a podcast for three hours and also in a, can you know, I IT might beyond an airplane. And then, oh, if my phone tells me I have this much time left on the podcast, so I continue listening IT on a hike. And I think that this is a very different kind of mental stimulus curiosity in a new way forward than the old days of reading a newspaper. No IT takes you this amount of time to read and the newspapers early exit.

And in the other problem with television choices, a specific time and people don't want to be locked into having to watch something at a very specific time. And now because of things like, you know youtube and spotify, you could just watch at anytime you want. Just stop IT when you go to the bathroom, stop IT when someone calls you, stop IT when you have to go somewhere.

Restart IT again when you are at the gym. And it's just a different thing. It's a different way to communicate.

This idea that people don't have attention, spends anymore, what how's are possible. They're just people. People didn't change that.

So stupid that people always have attention, experience and also they don't maybe they're just getting distracted by things that are very easy to absorb and very addictive like tiktok videos, doesn't mean that the human mind is different. It's been altered forever and that now no longer people are interested in long term conversation. That's just stupid.

I i've rejected that from the beginning. Like one of the first things, this podcasts, even my good friends were telling me, like you have to edit and my your money and shit that you have to make IT shorter. Like why no one's going to listen to something for three hours, then don't listen. Those might take was like, I don't care. I listen to things i've always listen to, like lectures and old Allen watts with speeches, like I listen to thanks.

Who's Allen?

Allen watts is? I guess you call him a psychiatric philosophers. Very fascinating englishman. He said, very wise things, but just A A brilliant person, very interested in budgeter and a very, very wise person who still today people send me clipsed of things that he said in quotes to think of things that he said, but i've always listens to faster. People have conversations.

Parents mechano listen to a lot of his speeches and a lot of the different lectures that he gave. Um I don't think people changed. I think that's nonsense.

I get hooked on youtube reals or instagram reals. I get hooked on i'll be be sitting in there if I have nothing to do. What is that? Why is he doing that? What's that all you like? It's just a part of being a human being.

We're easily distracted. IT doesn't mean we don't have an attention span anymore. That's stupid.

That's ridiculous. There's still people that are graduating from university of phds. There's still people right now that are in the residency in medical school.

There's still people that are learning how to engineer fighter jet, like there's people that have attention. This is nonsense. The idea that human beings radially changed because of this one medium that addictive is just so stupid.

Well, I also think there's something to be sad as an individual. When you can sit, when you will start to be a little bit conscious of your own habits in viewing and thinking and reading and information, so you get absorbed in the tiktok, and you then you get to say yourself, like, what am I doing? I want to actually change this habit.

And we all benefit from seeing how easy IT is to develop a habit and how hard IT is to sort of move yourself away from a habit as as become entrench in IT. And so I think there's a complete value in that. People suddenly realized I got to stop watching tiktok videos and I got to go to the gym, which is another no repudiating.

difficult sort of an adjustment. And most people don't like difficult things. So if you if you get one hundred people addicted to tiktok, what number of those hundred people are going to go? You know what, i'm going to change my life.

It's probably three or four. And those people were extraordinary. And you hear about them, you get inspired by them like, wow, you you ve got a flip phone.

That's crazy. Bob, why did you do that? You know what? I realized my mind was getting taken up by these things, and now I have my mind back. I like that people want to call me, they can call me, but i'm not watching things and reading things and absorbing things.

But then there's the argument like, okay, but now you're out of the cultural conversation like this, our friends that have foot phones and i'll try to ask them, did you see this new thing about the new corner computer? It's like hundred billion times Better or hundred million times Better than the last when they released in twenty nineteen. And they like no what.

So they're missing some things too. So the key is like mitigation, like you have to figure out like how much information makes you anxious, how much information just a where you just sit there and you grow and you waste your time and then you like, what do I do with my life? I'm wasting hours and then you'll you screen time.

At the end of the day, it's six hours, like what six hours of looking at my phone's at real. So you have to do that. But then also you don't want to miss out on things.

So you do want to kind of be informed. And part of my job is to be informed. I can't be the guy who people have to tell things about because I don't know anything like what what's going on, cry me a where's that I can't like.

So I have to have some, I have to have some involvement. I have to have some input where where, where i'm getting input from social media, from all these different things. As a comedian, I have to know the temperature of the country.

I have to know like what to make fun of, like what's ridiculous, what people are accepting. That doesn't make any sense. You just have to know like when you're getting sucked into the point or is becoming detrimental.

And I think that's where people struggle. People really struggle that like figuring out what's how much like you can need a cookie, not the right a cookie, but you should need a whole bag of cookies. You know, you shouldn't need cookies every day.

That's not good. But if you have dinner and you want to get desert, yeah, you get to peace. A timo, okay, you're gonna fine.

You're going to be fine. You etem through every day. You're gonna die, you know? And that's what social media is. It's desert, it's Candy. It's things that are kind of fun up at all point.

But you got to know what that point is in how to manage your own attention span and just also have sovereign your mind. You have to control your mind. You have to be able, like if your mind starts getting anxious, okay, we're getting weird.

It's time to work out, okay. I know maybe we should meditate, maybe do to do that. Don't just keeps growing. You gotta know when went, but most people don't have that kind of self control in this one. They don't have to.

All most people have to do is when the alarm goes off, get up, wash yourself, brush teeth, eats something, go to work, do whatever minimum amount you have to do to keep that job. And then and the bathroom breaks. And whenever no one's looking, look through your phone, be distracted, come home, watched netflix, go to sleep, repeat.

That's most people. So they don't have to do anything because they haven't set up their life in a way that requires serious attention and an objective sense of your perspective and your, your, your interaction with humans in the way the world is working. They don't have the time.

They don't. They have family problems, job problems. Their cars fcd something wrong with their house.

They get to fix their bills. Everything's piling up. People are immensely distracted. So what social media does for them as he gives them a brief rest from their own problems to just look at some fucking and drag queen reading stories to kids and get outraged or some new thing that's going on with some girl they made some crazy video and now always talking about IT like it's just most people don't have much discipline and they don't have to.

And they've gotten through life being overweight, eating progress foods and drinking too much, smoking too much and taking all kinds of pills to mitigate all these problems that they have because they've got taken care of themselves. So there are an anti anxiety medication and anti depression medication and anti this and that try to lose weight to the ono tham pic. And that's most people.

That's most people. You know, the number one drug in amErica is a is a pepped tie that helps you lose weight. What is epic h is the most profitable drug in the country, maybe the most profitable, profitable drug ever.

They can't sell enough of IT. They read, they estimate that by what is the numb? I think they're saying within five years, thirty percent of the population is gonna be yonder empty.

I can make IT .

fast enough lives. okay?

Here's a strange parallel thought for that, which is that radium has gotten rid of its marketing department. IT doesn't need IT anymore. They can't make enough missiles fast enough.

Have a marketing department for this, but you just told me is .

like people's physical being and their existential defense threats are aligned in terms of that, there is no need there, just there's too many orders to fill.

If you can get people to believe bulls shit and keep feeding them bulls shit, you turn them into infants. And if they just just accept the fact that you're feeding them bullshit and they don't employee any critical thinking and they don't look at outside sources of information, really try to assess what's actually going on because they generally, generally don't have the time you create .

a .

nation of infants and that there's a lot of us in this country that exist almost like children that are hoping dad is going to take care of everything.

But i'm always interested in the people that have that. Are those three percent you talked about that suddenly have that moment the catalyst where they realised, oh my goodness, I have to change things. I have to change that becomes maybe not everybody.

more of us now, I think, than ever before. And I think.

yeah, that realized .

something is going on. And I think that's also because of social media, the good aspects of social media, real honest discussions, revelations, things being released on twitter and you, the twitter files with the elon mos, they found out the fb, I was trying to suppress information, the hundred laptop story, and going through the covet disinformation, and now seeing the congressional hearings were fought ese, lying in front congress about gain of function research and whether not they deleted emails and all that stuff, I think more people are now, or what they're going, what the fuck is actually going on? They have ever before, I think there know there was always people, like during the vietnam war, there was always people that disrupted the government and didn't want, but they didn't have the kind of access information that we have today.

Yes, I mean, I am interested in the in the individual stories of people who change always because I think that it's too I don't say depressing for me, but that it's tune, if I can, if I think of amErica A S this big, giant situation with problems, IT becomes overwhelming. I just tried to focus on people's really interesting, cool stories.

I'll tell you one that comes my with the guy my ur drive the other day were chatting away and he tells me that he used to be like three hundred and fifty pounds and he was like this thin dude and he was talking to be about driving in uber tt nights. We could save money for one of his kids to go to college. I was like, wow, how did you suddenly lose weight? He told me that he was a security guard at a military base.

And, you know, he was just that. I was giant, and the dudes in the military were totally fit. And one of them said to me one time, dude, you gotto lose some weight and I listen to him.

and you'd let me go into .

the the one guy.

one guy sometimes .

be that guy and that guy. But to our point of, well, if you're not allowed to say like, dude, you're overweight or he didn't you know essentially like by saying, dude, you should come to the gym, he's the subtext theirs do your overweg yeah like you know unhelpfully overweg that's that fine line of stuff I find really interesting is talking about things that make people uncomfortable. I don't think that should be so tabo. I think you should be able to be honest, assertive, indirect.

especially if you could do IT and be kind. You know, just telling someone they need to lose weight doesn't mean you mean and this whole body positivity thing is not good for anybody, not good for anybody. There is no one who benefits from that.

You benefit in the short term where you don't feel as bad about the fact the euro bees. But you know, euro bees, everyone knows euro bees. You're just not dealing with this very obvious problem when someone says you need to lose weight.

I was, I was watching this tiktok video where there was this lady. He was upset because he was going to her a doctor, and he has all these auto mune problems, and he was severely morbidly obese, like giant. And SHE said that the doctor started body shaming her.

And he was so upset that he felt uncomfortable that the doctor was telling her that SHE needed to do something about a weight loss and recommended perhaps paratroop surgery, or o empac, one of these things. And this property was talking about, this is like what I be trail, that their health care provider was calling them obese and that they did not feel safe with them anymore. And the comments were interesting because almost everyone in the comments is like, that fucking person is trying to save your life.

You have all these auto mune issues. Well, guess what? Guess why you're five hundred pounds.

Like you shouldn't be five hundred pounds. That's not a Normal wait for a person, especially a woman who's like, five, eight. This is crazy.

Like what you're doing is crazy and for you to be upset that your doctor is telling you you're doing something crazy, it's like A A person coming into the doctor's office getting screen for lung cancer with three cigarettes lit in their mouth. I told it's like, it's like, hey, what do you think is causing this lung cancer? Er do you think maybe it's this fuck and poison and that you're sock on every day?

Like yeah that's probably yet, right yeah well, that's the same thing you're just doing. It's a slower poison. But it's a very obvious poison like you're you're consuming poison. You've got your body the point where is dying and she's telling you this doctor is telling you, hey, you've got to do something about this and your response is to go on social media and talk about the hours of being body shamed.

There's a great thing that I love, try to live my life by, and I definitely write about in all my books, which is you can't fix what you can't face.

That's a very good at very good quote. Yeah.

that's true. Alternatively, you can fix what what you willing to face. Yes, and that's what so much about this.

I even I think you can fix anything, even if it's just a mental fact or a spiritual fact. No, but are you willing to? But on the technology from driver, read James burke.

No, he wrote a .

law in the eighties and he he was writing about science, technology. He's a historian, an of science, technology. He goes like way back.

You like bubonic player. He'll write about of how that changed industry across the europe. And these really generally easy to do die, just, just fascinating ways. But I, in terms of your technology, tiktok is the world going to hell in a hand basket. I think of him because he said that the, and this is a great analogy.

I think that I think of with my kids and social media, when the printing impress was invented um the absolutely all of society thought the world was like gonna to hell in a hand basket because but before that the only people who could read really were the priest and so they kept all this information and they dolled out according to their line of thinking and then the printing press came along and the hoy palloo could read or would begin that began really the the birth of mass population being able to read, which is where we are are today and sometimes I like think with about James burke and I think about that as an analogy to where we are today, that what is going on is just an upheaval like the printing press in terms of making a lot more people more literate. yes. And so maybe it's not even i'm when I used to think of literacy and its true definition is actually reading.

And I remember when audio books came out and I read all my own audio books, and I originally thought that read listening to me read my own book was somehow you wouldn't have the same experience of reading IT yourself. And then I realized I was, I was putting my standard. I actually enjoy reading.

I like that the way i'm wired. I can do math, but I can read. And then I now I realised, with the amount of people that listen to my audio books, listen to your podcast, that maybe is a new twenty first century form of literacy, which is really makes my head go in interesting places, because language is very different than reading, you know, communicating. So but it's all .

information.

yes, and it's digesting the information. And so where I think the social media parts of IT are dangerous is is like you said, it's too fast to desperate. You go from one thing to the next thing and that's where it's i'll set up where is a longer form podcast.

You're asking people to stay with you with your ideas. You just go you might go off on a ref about obesity. I might go off on a reef about literacy. But it's may it's the brain is being stimulated, the brain is being curious and then that Carries over to your own life.

yes. yeah. I think what's going on also is that this entertainment form, this this, whether it's podcast or audio books, is something is being consumed, why people are doing other things, whether they Normally would not get this information, like driving, going to the gym, working, doing media labor, doing things we can listen, doing a podcast that is a new thing.

It's a way to be entertained while you're doing other things. And that that's a big part of this. And that's an a whole area that wasn't addressed before any kind of was with talk radio.

So people listen to talk radio in their cars, but nobody listened to talk radio at the gym. We listened to talk radio on the airplane. You, you now you can download and consume them anytime you want. And most of time, people are consume these things while they're being forced to sit the doctors waiting room, while they are doing something that ordinary, they would just be just bored.

right? And the other argument to that, your friend with a flipped phone, i've heard this director, Christopher, no one who made the open hymir movie, to talk about this, where he says he believes that the experience of sitting in the waiting room is what he wants.

Yes.

so so I think there's a very few verified people that can actually the way they're built, the way that, the way they're engineer, the way they are, the way they become, allows for them to sit in the waiting room, be super interested in observing maybe you're an elite ite director or yeah to do that. But most people are going to be, you know, restless, arable and discontent. And therefore the podcast, the audio book is an additive to your life.

He is. But it's also a way to consume new information is the way is the way to get educated. You can say what Christopher known is doing is the right way, but IT might be the right way for him.

He's obviously a brilliant man, and I don't believe he even uses email. Is that the case? Fan of Christopher, no one uses email. I'm pretty sure he's one of those guys is like no phone, no email, nothing completely disconnected. And I would imagine if you want to be very creative, that's probably a very good strategy.

You don't want the stimulus there.

I don't have an email dress. I've never used the email. No one said I don't have a smart phone. I will Carry a PaaS you go. Dumb phone thing.

yeah. okay. And that's the quote from him.

So that one of the reasons why probably so good was to say is burner phone is inspired by what the wire and to see the wire, what is the. I got IT, I know IT. I have a feeling that in the future, there's going to be way less of those people.

And there was a lot of people I remember in the day that had no email, and they thought that was cool. I don't even never eat email, and you can call me you. I don't answer you like my friend joe would not answer text messes. You've get mad to you if you send a text message, call me and but now he texts everybody texts. I think it's can be harder and harder to be that guy, but cus to him.

okay. So I remember when my my son jet is now in nineteen and he was probably but cool j.

Jacobson.

my other son in.

yeah just so .

he was like maybe nine years old when the first iphone came out and I had one and he just thought I was so cool and I will never forget, he said at the dinner of mom, just to be clear, when you were born, they didn't have these iphones.

That's great.

Just to be clear.

Well, when we were kids, we had a phone that was stuck to the wall with a cord. I mean.

try telling your kids about an answering machine .

about their phones.

okay.

Are you ready for this trivia? why? One of the reasons why you could argue that computers became so important to the defense department back in one hundred sixty one is because during the cuban missile crisis, and this is like I ve seen these documents at the national archive, jfk was so worried about that exact movement, when you made with your finger the dial phone, there was a true red phone that would be used in a nuclear crisis for him to call across.

And he became worried that that that wasted too much time to get through that. And so he hired a guy called J. C.

R. lig. Lighter to develop computers that could move faster.

And at the time, the computers were the size of this room in the defense department, and there were these old main frames. And lick lighter is he's called the john y. Apple seat of the internet. In essence, he's the guy who created the arpeni t, which is now the internet.

And so there's this interesting do will use technology idea that everything that at the pentagon, at least in the defense world, so much of our amazing technology is born out of, you know, trying to save the world from existence. Al threat, and I always think that do use part of everything, is super interesting. Look at lasers. You know lasers are arguably perhaps the most important technological defense born um you know system of the twenty th century, laser printers, laser surgery, laser eyes and then you have laser weapons at the pantages on so classified I can even get anywhere near that there they're called direct .

and directed energy weapons and how much do you know about them because I see is like inspiring stuff online like direct ery weapons yeah well.

I mean, I always think conspiracy is born of secrecy, which would make sense if if someone is constantly telling you you can't know about that, you're going to naturally wonder what going on and I really can't know what's so secret. I think that that A A good instinct of hours. And so every any time I have been at the pentagon, or we're ever asking about directed energy weapons, it's really stop, stop.

And so to find out more about that, I track down. This was when I was reporting the pentagon's brain a decade ago. I thought to myself, a, because these guys won't talk to me.

I'll find out who invented the laser. See if he will go to the smartest guy in the room. So Charles towns, who won the nobel prize for inventing, later, I called him. This was in twenty fourteen. I believe he wasn't later before fourteen.

No, no, no.

He or sorry, that's on the interviewing. He invented the laser in six. I think he won the nobel prize and sixty one or sixty two o and he was ninety nine years old when I interviewed, still keeping office hours .

at berkeley.

had a secretary on the line and gave this incredible interview. And I asked him about, you know, he's developed men of the laser, but you want to here, you might be interested in this. So he he is, the guy invented the later.

I mean, when you really think about that and he told me, I said, well, who do you go to when you're having trouble? When you're Charles towns and he said, well, I took that particular idea to two colleagues, einstein and vanov. Man, okay, that's A I said, who said what? And he said, ions, this is when towners was having trouble making IT work.

And he said that einstein said, keep trying. And vano yan said, it'll never, it'll never work. And I said, what to make of that and he said, well, einstein was very generous of spirit, and he was always encouraging other scientists to think big and try. And vanni man was the kind of scientists who believed if he didn't come up with that, IT probably .

wasn't a good idea. go.

But I love that because who else in the world, like has those two people? Yeah, you know that they run idea as I know, who you run ideas by, who I run ideas by, who chelles tell. But here's another interesting thought about the laser is charley town. And he didn't share this fact for decades. But later in life, he wrote a lengthy article, I believe IT was for the harvard ali magazine, that the idea for the laser came to him when he was sitting on a park bench from above.

wow. So IT was a religious .

experience for him, like he'd been working on this problem. He'd been working on this science problem according to Charles's wants, and by the way, he was inspired. He told me to develop the laser from the time I was a little kid in the twenties reading the soviet science fiction novel of the garden death ray.

So it's like IT was a science fiction concept. A later, he's a little kid, charley towns, thinking about this, thinking about this, and all through his life, continuing to think about, then running IT by as einstein colleagues, and then can't make IT work, can't make IT work, is sitting on a park bench. And he gets the message from above. He made IT sound very much like IT was a religious experience film, but he never wrote about IT for a long time. Because particularly in the sixties and seventies, if you you couldn't be a scientist and have faith at the same time, or at least you would be, you know, be little door we've looked down upon is .

what he said that's interesting. So he was reluctant to say the inspiration behind his idea because he felt that was divine in nature.

And it's not just me. He told this. You can read about this in that harvard article. And I think he wrote that when he was in his late eighties. But absolutely so he was really making a plug for listening to whatever IT is that guides you, which is a very powerful statement.

right? Whatever that is yet, we have a real problem with if we can't measure something, we don't think it's a real thing. You know, if we don't have the tools to put IT on a scale, we don't think it's a real thing. But whatever we want to call divine intervention that .

when he told me that he was so fascinating to me, I began to explore if there were other nobel lawyers in particular that shared that belief and there are there are a couple of nobel loria to someone in chemistry um and that that believed that their their knowledge came from a divine inspired like they had a dream type situation. I read about all this in my book phenomenon yes.

these .

specific examples because it's so interesting when we went that kind of non mainstream thinking comes from an absolute, you know, an individual in the community who has achieved the highest award, whatever that means.

But isn't the creation of science or the thought of science as a thing? Wasn't that? Was that daycare? And didn't he come up with IT from a dream? He had a dream, were an Angel, told him that they would master control over nature by the, by measurement, like seeing.

You can find that. See, you find that quote. But I believe this was like considered the beginning of science. So the beginning of science.

Here, IT is in his third dream, the Angel game to day cards, and said, conquest of nature is to be achieved through number and measure. That was the beginning of the cartesian way of dissecting the natural world, one of mechanics formula eeta. Surely the conquest of the natural words been achieved that way. Proof, surely, that the Angel was right. So the beginning of science, measurement and in design, whatever is whatever that word.

absolute. I mean, who isn't amazed by their own dreams when they have a really intense dream that's just such a part and parcel to being a human and being curious. And there is no answer to IT. I have a theory tell me.

I think ideas are a life form. That's what I think. I think we think of a life form, the term life form.

We think of IT as something that can breed something that propagates of, that spreads its DNA. Every single thing that exists on this earth that people have created came from an idea. Every mug, every computer, every airplane, every television set, everything came from an idea.

The idea comes in the person's mind. IT combines well the currently available ideas and improves upon those ideas. And IT manifests itself in a physical thing.

And that physical thing is what we do. That's the number one thing we do. We do a lot of different things.

We have children and families. We have jobs. We take up hobby.

But but if you looked an overview effect, if you looked at the human race from above, you would say, if you are in one of us, you say, what is the species doing well, makes Better things every year. That's what IT does. IT doesn't make the same, be high every year.

IT constantly, consistently makes Better things. Where does IT what? What motivates is to make these Better things? Ideas, ideas. And in the competition of these ideas.

Now, if something wanted a thing to manifested in the world, to make IT exist in the world, what would I do? I would get inside that things creative structure, get inside that things mind, and in part these ideas, in part these inspirations, and get this thing to go out and put these pieces together in, manufacture this thing, and then test IT and improve upon IT and keep doing IT until they get IT right. And then other people will take those things and have new ideas.

I know how to take that and turn into a tablet. I know how to turn that into a this. I know how to make IT this Better.

Let's do quantum computing. Let's do. These are all just ideas. So ideas that human beings turn into real things, and those real things accelerate the evolution of technology in this radical way where we can't even comprehend where it's going.

Know, there was an article I put on my instagram today. I just put the title of love at how crazy is that AI IT was like five hundred million years AI as extrapolated, like calculating what evolution looks like in five hundred million years. yeah. Oh.

I have seen that. yes. So yes, like we don't .

even understand what we're doing. We don't even understand what we're doing, but we keep doing IT. And I think some of the instance that human beings have that seem revolves are directly connected to this.

And one of them is materialism. Materialism status, all these different things that we have, where with materialism, you always want the newest, greatest thing. If your friend has an iphone fifteen, but you have an iphone ten, you look like a loser.

Would you do with that old? Look at that stupid old camera. Oh my god, what do you do with that? You need the best one. You need the new one.

If you have a two thousand seven car and your friend pulls up in a twenty twenty four car that I need, a new one was the new one. Do the new one? Does all these different things that the old one doesn't do.

The new one drives itself the new one. And so what does that do? IT IT pushes innovation.

IT promotes innovation. Materialism fuels innovation. Because we're always buying new stuff. If everybody stopped buying things, if everybody looked at their phone and said, this phone is perfect, I don't need new phone.

Or could you have that phone forever? You don't need a new iphone. I can have like that phone forever.

They would stop benefiting. They would stop making things. They would be that would just stop, and then nothing would get done. But because of we, with materialism, because of this keeping up with the Jones, this thing where everybody wants the latest thing in their driveway to impress their neighbor, you want to pull up to the fuck and dinner and show all your friends all that stuff just fuel the creation of new and Better things. And we're all part of IT in every year.

There's like a thing you didn't know if I just got this phone check, this self, this phone, I can make a circle on things, and I google IT instantly. This phone transcribes all of my voice notes and then summarizes them for me. This phone is .

galpy twenty .

four A I S A I in IT IT will .

summers ize your notes? So like condense them into a wikipedia .

IT does IT with your pages. This is the samsung galaxy as twenty four ultra. This is the new one.

This this thing IT can IT can transcribe your your thoughts. But even Better, you can translate conversations. You could be speaking spanish and I can be speaking english.

And it'll have a split screen. So it'll show like up, put the phone down in almost, yes. So on your half of the phone facing you, IT would be speaking in in spanish.

IT would translate my words in spanish. On my side, you will be translating your spanish into english. Then if you have the galaxy ear buds, it'll do IT in real time in your ear. So you can talk to me and spanish, and I can hear you in english. And this is just beginning.

So at the united nations were no longer going to have those translators painstaking kingly. Oh yeah, telling.

And maybe lying. You know, maybe lying may be distorting reality because that happens a lot too. You hear about translations like that's not exactly what he said.

You've kind of distorted and twisted those words. But the point is like these all come from ideas and I didn't think I needed a ability to circle and imagine and immediately google are that. But it's so convenient.

Like if you want something or you see something, like, where is that? Like, where does that take a picture of that thing? Sort IT. Then immediately IT goes to google that shows you instantaneously.

Now, when you say ideas, our life for which is so interesting to me, haven't heard that. Do you are you talking about maybe consciousness is like, okay, so this and then how does what are your thoughts on how individual people? Or could you talk about a behave? And that made me think about a hive. Like, are we all part of the same and consciousness? Like, again, carl Young would .

say my theory and again, no education. This is just my thinking about a for thousands of hours. I think we're all the same thing.

I think this whole idea, we are one that sounds so happy. It's hard for people to digest. But I want you to think about IT this way.

If you live my life, I think you would me. And I think if I live your life, I would be you. I think what consciousness is is the life force of all living, sentient things on this planet, and perhaps all in the universe. And it's experiencing reality through different biological filters, different bodies, different life experiences, different education, different genetics, different parts of the world, different geography, different climate, different things to deal with. But it's the same thing.

I think if I lived in afghanistan and my whole families in the taliban, I would probably be in the taliban too, because I think you just you you adapt to whatever circumstances in environment you're in, and then you think that way, and you speak this language and you have these customs and you engage in these religious practices. But I think consciousness, the thing at the heart of at all, what that person thinks of when they say me, what I think me, I think this, I think that me is the same in every person. I think it's, it's everyone.

That's why we're all connected. That's why we all need each other. That's why loneliness contributes to diseases.

And it's terrible for human beings. I think we're all univerSally connected with this bizarre goal. And I think this bizarre goal might be to create artificial alive. I think that might be the I think that said this to many times, if you ve heard, i'm sorry, but I think that we are an electronic caterpillar making a cocoon, and we don't even know why we are just constantly building .

is the next transformation exactly?

And we give birth to the butterfly, okay? We are a biological caterpillar giving birth to the electronic butterfly, and we're doing IT. We don't even know what we're doing. We're just making this cocoon. We just keep going because this is what we do.

And I think this is probably how life separates from biology to something far more sophisticated that's not could find to the timeline of biological evolution, which is a very slow, relatively speaking, time line in comparison to electronic evolution. Electronic evolution is exponential. IT happens radical.

IT happens very fast, and especially when you get to do things like when A I gets involved in quantum computing gets involved, then things accelerate so fast, like clicker. What's going on with A I five years ago? A I was not even a concern. Nobody even thought about IT. Now it's at the tip of everyone's tongue.

And all everyone's talking about is what happens when ChatGPT five gets released, what happens when six kids released, what happens when artificial general intelligence is achieved, what happens when these things become sentient, what happens when these things make Better versions of themselves? what? How, when does that stopped? Does IT ever stopped? Do they become god? Is that what god is? Is what god is? Is this primate becomes curious, starts inventing tools.

Tools lead to machines. Machines lead to the industrial age. The industrial age leads to electronics. Electronics leads to artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence leads to god.

wow. Okay, in that line of thought, go back now on that timeline to your eye. How did we go from language? You know, how do we go from granting to language? And then from language to writing, why did we decide why? Why and how do we write .

in the moment they started pointing things, making out? And by the way, animals do that. We know that, right? Do you know that some monkeys trick other monkeys? So some monkeys will make a sound like an eagles coming, and so that these monkeys run out the trees and then theyll run up the trees and steal the fruit.

I did not know that. Have you seen chip?

And yes, yeah, how the director is amazing. It's an amazing .

film so much that somebody was, somebody was asking me after I wrote the surprised kill vanish book about the C. A S. Paramilitary ground branch guys, snake keepers and they said, what's the origin story of ground branch thinking? I was going to say, you know, the osse but I had just seen chim empire and I couldn't out myself.

But a chim empire is the, is the origin and story of the C. I. S. Paramilitary, right? And I remember that watching that like the four hours, and it's so magnificently filmed and it's so interesting in that moment where they go back in time, and you realize someone had been video taping the previous generation of champs, and that there anger and their fighting was based on revenge, that blew my mind, that they, that because I often think, because I write about war and weapons, I always think about nature versus nurture. And where we built this way and are we know this is a very interesting thing to think about, like your electric caterpillar .

fighting over resources.

They were fighting over resources. But I was also revenge. Remember that there there was like a score to settle with the previous generation, that and that to me, was stunning. And also that one of the guys I love, that they named everyone. But one of the chance brother, I think I was a head chimp's brother, lost his ARM in a poachers trap member. That, and when you think about chips and how important their arms are swinging from trees, like under, if you just followed the logic about, you know, survival of the fittest, then that mp, the brother champ would would have died because he didn't have one of his, but instead the other brother the league jump made sure he was taking care of, which is like, so human more. I still think about that.

That's how to survive. They need help. That's why they live in tribes. It's where they, not individuals alone by themselves.

okay. So you think games were pointing and then from that you had to figure there over long amounts of time.

yeah, over immense amounts of time. They started develop, just like monkeys have sounds for eagles know that monkeys have sounds for snakes. They have sounds for different things.

And this is a relatively recently known thing. I think they used to think they would just make noises before. Now they realized, like, oh, no, they have very specific noises for very specific things. And I think that evolves. Do you know that they think that apes right now in the stone age, yeah, then they entered into the stone age?

You mean apes have evolved into the one?

Anthropologists right now believe that if we used to be storage lower primates, and we eventually evolved into being human beings, the other apps are now entering the stone age. There's evidence of them using tools. There is evidence of their manufacturing tools.

There is a video of an rangan is some famous photos and a range tang spearfishing. He's hanging on, yeah, he's hanging on to a tree and he's got a spear and he's jabbing fish out of the water with despair. It's wild to say, touch up.

Well, that's what happens. I mean, the idea that they're gonna stay the same. Look at this OK.

Oh, wow.

How care. amazing. How crazy is that? He's fishing. He's fishing with a spear.

amaze.

That's just one of many instances of them using tools, using things, they they're starting to enter into this phase where they start evolving. I mean, and it's a slow process and we went through IT somehow another we went through the accelerated way. That's very confusing.

Also, like the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years, apparently is the biggest mystery and the entire fossil record, like, how does this one thing that created the fossil record double over a period of two billion years? Like what are the factors? Yes, there's a bunch of different ideas, but all of emerges ideas no .

one really knows. Okay, so here's an interesting antec anette nuclear war apes. In one nine hundred and seventy five, there was this famous defense official who who went like, from being a hug to being like, we cannot have so many nuclear weapons. His name is paul morny. And you wrote of what was then a famous article in foreign policy magazine called apes on a trade mill.

Such a great image is idea that the nuclear arms race was apes on a trade mail, that we and and the russians were just slavish, like essentially ignorant bees just slaving away on this, had been trying to win, not even realizing there is no winner. And, you know, IT was a famous article everybody wrote about, I am spoke about IT and, you know, D, C. And then IT disappeared.

Well, the anette comes from, recently, a group of scientists wanted to try to answer the question that we're talking about. Like, how did apes go from pipe? Or how did weak you from from muckle walking to being by Peter? How did? How did that happen? We still don't know why.

And they were trying to figure out if I had to do with energy consumption. So they outfitted apes, they put him on a tread mill, they outfight them with oxygen mass, and then they put to have humans doing the same thing. And they were measuring you energy levels.

And during this experiment, and they kept making them, dude, over, over than the humans on the apes on the. And during one of the experiments, one of the apps was basically like, grow, as i'm not doing this anymore, he pushed the button and got off. And the anew to nuclear war is, if apes can figure out how to get off the tree. Male, why can't.

Humans, well, apes are not being influenced lobbies.

Abe aren't watching tiktok.

Abe having secret lunch meetings with the head of the on yeah I don't know who knows um I think we can I don't think it's impossible. I think you and I being here right now having this conversation where there's not a nuclear we're going on speaks to that like we've had nuclear weapons for a long time and we haven't used them. And I don't think it's I don't think it's an inevitability that we destroy ourselves, but it's a possibility.

And I think there's a lot of foolish people that are ignoring that possibility, and that's what's scary. And what scary is that the type of people that want to become president, congressman and senators, some of them are great people and some of them were the their wise and their good leaders. And some of them are just people that are too ugly to be on TV there.

They're too ugly to be actors. They're too ugly to they can't saying they want attention. And so they want to be a leader. And so they want to say the things that people want to hear because those things get them positive attention and they feel good.

And then they get a bunch of people who love them and they feel good, and then they have their face on a billboard and bumper stickers. And like everybody likes me and the people who don't like me, they're communism losers. And so it's a culture personality thing that is just a part of being a charismatic person and gardening attention.

And that's a giant part of our whole political process, is narsisi and psychopath and sociopath that have embeds themselves into the system. And then they all feed off each other and help each other, and they are all insider trading and they're involved. And then when they leave office, they get paid to speak in front bankers and make a half a million dollars. We're over one by social path.

What's the old? Why is that?

What's a natural path like that's what most leaders are. Most leaders of immense groups of people that forced people on the war are .

sociopath is the old adage. You have to be crazy to become president in the first place. So you wouldn't become president because you would realize it's crazy.

Yeah my is no one who wants to be president should be allowed to be president. Almost no one. And that's you know, that's also part of the problem that the world we're living in today, it's always the the lesser of two evils. That's our choice always.

Well, it's also so peculiar what happens to people when they become president. And all. I'll give you an example of, again, from the nuclear war concept of things. Do you know about the policy launch on warning?

no. okay.

Do you know about sol presidential authority? yes. okay. So you know, the president alone launches nuclear war.

He doesn't ask the sec, def doesn't ask the chairman of the joint chiefs doesn't ask congress. He launches. Furthermore, we have a policy cup launch on warning.

So when he is told that there is an incoming nuclear missile on its way to the united states, which is how this begins, he must launch on warning. That is policy. We do not wait. That is a quote from former secretary of defense billen ery.

Now, before taking office, many of these presidents say that they are going to change that insane policy, because IT essentially creates this volatile situation where every president, every foreign leader knows they're gna launch on warning. And so am I. They say they're going to change the policy before they take office.

This is documented, you know, clinton, bush, obama, not trumpet, but, and then they don't, and no one knows why. Why do you think that is that you would have a position before becoming president of such a extreme? Policy needs to change and then, and then change your or become silent on that.

I don't think anybody think if I was gonna a conversation with trump, the number one thing that I would wanna ask him is what is the difference team, what you thought I was like and what IT is like? What happens we needed in there, but what happens when needed? And no one knows it's so secretive.

The the meetings between heads, the state, between senators congresswomen behind closed doors, all all the different meanings with the head of the panic gon, the head of the intelligence agencies, we don't know what those means. You are like no one can know it's a point of national security. So if you're not president, of course you can go to the fucker meetings, so then you become president and then you get briefed.

So then they seek down. And they, they, they hit you with all the problems in the world that you don't know about, that nobody knows about about them. And I bet their numerous and I bet it's terrifying. And I bet that's a giant factor as to why people change between me.

A lot of what they say when they are running for president, they know they're not going to do, but they're saying IT because they want people to vote for them and then they get in there and are not going to released the J, F, K. files. They do things like that's what they always do. But I think a lot of IT is also, you can't know what you're talking about until you get that job, until you're in there. You you don't know what you're talking about.

you have no idea. But whose narrative is that like in other worlds, if IT, is that the previous administration? Because if that's the case, if the previous administration is briefing you, the new president, the incoming president, on all of these these state secrets that are so terrifying, you have to throw your old, old promises out the window for the most part. Wouldn't that change every that's where i'm lost. It's like and also, it's so tiring reading these presidential manuals which say APP or mammoths rather, which then say absolutely nothing original to any of us, the citizens, about what's really happening as president.

Well, because those are just designed to make money. Memorials are not really designed to do anything other than generate income. No, I want a real .

story from the president.

You will get that if you're alone with them. I mean, I think that there is probably some things that they say in there that they have to like kind of skirt around IT and figure out what to say, figure out how to say that did you ver read bill clint my life?

I don't think I could read a biography by him.

You had some one wild thing to say about the moon landing. What really wild? Well, he was saying that he was working. I think he was work doing construction in one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine and showed up for work. See, you can find the quotes.

So I don't pair of phrase and I think it's page two forty one of bill clinton s my life and I have the page run. So in this scenario he's talking to this carpenter. He's telling this carpet isn't a crazy.

They landed on the moon, and the carpenter says something to the sound of, I don't believe anything those television fellers say. And he goes, I think they can fake anything somewhere along that line. And he goes before he goes back.

Then I thought that I was a crank. He goes. But after my eight years in the White house, I started to think that maybe he's ahead of his time.

Now just imagine saying that about the biggest achievement in human history, landing another human being on the surface of a moon, another planets, one court to the size of our planet, two hundred and fifty thousand thousand miles away. And he's saying, maybe this guy I thought I was fake is ahead of his time. That's not, that's not something you accidentally say that sound something you previously write down and just add IT to your book did you .

find a that is I got ta see that real coke that is that some really .

heavy sub you read IT you like way what the fact that he said, like you're in IT got kind of glass covers up for the moon lining house hoax community who went yeah I told .

you it's fake but .

that's interesting and that guy wrote all that long hand by the way he wrote that all on um no composition books, just snow books wrote .

at all and .

then he was so this is not like an accident they told this story imagine saying I M imagine saying that this guy was out the moon learning was fake. Maybe he was ahead of his time you find IT on mostly I can only find IT written on wikipedia and I like it's linking to the book, but this is what IT says on wikipedia. There is perfectly, perfectly.

okay. Here goes just a month before Apollo of an astronauts, boz aldrin and neil armstrong had left her colleague, Michael Collins of board spaceship colombian walked in the moon. The old carpenter asked me if I really believed that happened.

I said, sure. I saw that on television. He disagreed.

He said that he didn't believe IT for a minute that the television fellers could make things. The wheel that weren't back then. I thought he was a crank. During my eight years in washing, I saw some things on TV that make me wonder if he was in ahead of his time.

Well, that's very weird and cryptic because he says, I saw some things on T. V. That made me wonder. So yeah.

really like things that displayed to the american public that were horse IT, some things that are on TV that people going to look at where he knows is not real, right? So he's .

wondering and by dragging the moon into IT, there's just no way you that you can do anything but infer that he's referencing. And has .

anyone ever .

asked him about that?

And follow up, 哒 哒哒， could IT be A A nice edit for this. This is a wikipedia about the experience of mooning experience. That's why I couldn't find that somewhere else in the quote is just more the same, just a private whole thing that the point of the quote that the meat is the old carbon to asked me, I really believe, to happen. This is all not taken out of context.

So, so, will politics in the united states ever change to a point where we can have individuals who except their responsibility? I mean, another crazy thing, again, interviewing panetta. Clinton exact has his chief of stuff as like, oh, but this is panada talking that the presidents are very uninformed about any of their responsibility, ie.

S i'm sure, about nuclear war. They don't know how IT unfolds. They don't know how fast IT is.

Did you know that they have a six minute window to make a counter attack? Six minute window. And that comes from president reagans meet more. By the way, he said that there's a quote from him, which I have in the book, a six minute window to have to make a decision to possibly end the world is irrational.

I think part of the problem. And to answer your question about leaders, politicians, whether you change. We're asking humans to not be human.

That's what we're asking. We're asking them to be these perfect things. And then now we're looking up their us with a microscope more than we've ever done before.

And we're also accepting that the other side is going to lie about this person's background and lie about what this person done. For three years, all you heard on the news was russia collusion with Donald trump. They were trying to say russia put him in office.

He's a russian puppet. He's a russian thing was all lie. They made IT up and they set IT everyone. You're allowed to do that. You're allowed to do that.

So not only are you taking a person and asking them to not be a person, but then you're looking at everything theyve done. And you're allowed to lie about IT. And you're allowed to lie about IT in kao's with the media who spreads this lie on television every day with no consequences.

So the problem is not just that we don't have good leaders is that I don't know it's possible to have a good leader. I don't know if those kinds humans are real. And I wonder if A I.

even though .

everyone terrified of IT and I am too, I wonder if that's our way out. I wonder if the only thing that can actually govern society fairly and accurately is an artificial intelligence, is something that doesn't have emotions and greed narsisi all the other contempt traits that all our politicians have.

What if he doesn't have any that? What if IT? First of, what if it's far smarter than us and realizes and a fair and reasonable way to allocate resources and to eliminate pollution, to fit, mitigate over fishing and all all the different issues that we have all IT looks at IT an absolutely accurate in brilliant way that we're not even capable of doing.

And this idea of us being governed by people and not wanting those people to behave like every person ever who's been in power, absolute power, corrupts absolutely. We've everyone knows IT, but we just assume that you're going to this one guy that's like his morals are so strong and when he gets in there, know him he's going to a write the ship and join the swap. I don't think those people are real.

I don't think that's a real thing. I think the folly the human beings have displayed is built into the programme. I don't think it's I don't think it's unusual.

president ever admired or part of their actions that you admired .

lot of human beings that I mired. There's just flawed human beings I still admire. Like, I mean, Kennedy said, a lot of amazing, brilliant things, which is also deeply flawed. And if he was alive today, oh my god, the scales, they would pull out that guys closet, that would be crazy. You would never make IT would never get anywhere close. But that's just, he's a human, and you could kind of be flawed and also have these brilliant takes on things like he did done, but look at at him, they flocking, kill them, and then they covered IT up and then today, even today, they won't release .

the files today. I mean that that speaking to the idea that conspire have become popular or rather you thinking that there is a conspiracy behind things. It's so astonishing that those files are not released after all this time. Ah it's almost impossible not to see not to ask what is behind that veil, what is so important to and .

IT does make me .

think that whatever IT is is such a poor reflection on amErica that the president therefore agrees okay.

we won't do that. Yes, I think I would cause A, A A deep rift in our society that maybe we can't really handle. It's possible. It's possible that it's the CIA they did IT and that we're going to realize that these people and some of them in may even still be .

alive from all of the different sources I spoke to over the decades. I always get the sense that IT was a nation state, and that nation state happens to be nuclear armed. And even today, people demand consequences .

as possible. But the people that were involved, the warn commission report, some of them were like Allan, dollars, dollars was fired by Kennedy. Imagine you get assassinated.

And the guy who you fired to fuck and hates you gets to write the story of what happened to you. Mean, there's a lot there's a lot that goes into that. That's a very, very deep. There's a lot. The warm commissim reporters horses, if you read IT and if you, if you like, David lifting won a book on a called best evidence and you're read.

no, but I know about him from tonio k osb ook, which is so awesome. And he studied in the entire .

warrant commissioner, which almost nobody had at the time. And he was like, this is filled with inconsistencies. None of this makes any sense there. So much wrong with all these different things that they're saying that he started doubting IT, and then he started looking into the assassination itself in finding that how many witnesses had died mysteriously, the whole thing, the risks of conspiracy from the top to the bottom, from jack ruby showing up and killing lee harvey oswald, to jolley's west visiting jack ruby in jail.

And also jack ruby goes insane to the fact that jolly west was the head of nk ultra, which likely supplied manson with sd, which ran the at the hate ashbery free clinic, which was where they were giving people SSD, which was running Operation midnight climb s, where they were dozing up johns with lsd and watching them for two a mrs, like all this is real, like this is all undisputed, able, absolute truth that was going on at the exact same time. And to think that that's the only thing they were lying about is just that stuff, everything else, they are bob board. That stuff was important. And we are just trying to get to the bottom things.

No, there was certainly not the same degree of an an alert and knowledge able citizens in the fifties and sixties. Everyone just took everything at face value. And IT is remarkable as a historian. Anthony's work also speaks of that.

To go back in time and look at that part of just as interesting perhaps, as the facts of the matter, like the warm commission is to say, how did everyone simply accept this as fact? But then I think it's valuable to have the old look in the mirror moment and go what is IT today that we're not looking at what is IT today that will be in ten, twenty, thirty years from now. I can't believe they were all falling for that concept that the hold you can't face, you can't fix what you can't face.

I think it's going to be the influence .

of farmer civil drug .

companies yeah and also process food companies. We know now that process food companies, major food manufacturer, are paying food influences to say, to say that all food is good food, you know, to talk about body positivity, that's all motivated by them to sell more oros and whatever the fuck they sell that. We know that, we know that fact.

That reminds me of the hypocrisy i've feel and think about behind smoking. Like I live in los Angeles and in the city of beverly hills. You cannot smoke anywhere like you will get a ticket if you smoke outside.

do and I .

don't smoke. But to the point, you know, all you have to do is like a research about you think about creating the whole smoker's world um you see those old ads from the fifties and sixties where know the doctor the the ob G I N is smoking while they're visiting with the pregnant woman and encouraging her to smoke because IT will .

make her relax. Did you see asma cigarettes?

Have ever seen those .

asma asthma cigarettes, that cigarettes they describe for .

people with us?

Yeah, this is just shows how evil corporations are, even back then, then, just because they could get away with that. And back then there was no internet, so he couldn't find out OK. You shouldn't smoke any folk and cigarettes when you have.

as I mean.

it's asma cigarets. In case of asma, cough, bronchitis, hay fever, influenza and shortness of breath, smoke cigarettes. Asma, cigarettes for your health, the temporary relief.

It's ubiquitous. When I was researching the nuclear war book, I came across a quote from general growth. Remember him from the open hammer film, matt damon Carter? He, he was at a commission.

This is like a year after the atomic bombing of her, oh, ma. And he was asked about radiation and he said, quote, radiation is a very pleasant way to die. Well, that's what he told congress. And so it's everywhere with officials until safe .

and effective.

it's a pleasant way to die.

Yeah, there. This is gas lighting. And people been doing that forever that whenever they can get away with that, if they can speak eloquently and phrase things in a way that can short shift opinion one way or the other, they do that yeah, especially when they're people in power, or when they are a person in power, assign someone to go be a sport person yeah, it's dangerous.

And I think that's another place where artificial intelligence may help us. I think we're going to get to a place where lying is going to be impossible. I don't think it's going to be possible within the next ten years to lie.

I think it's all out the window. I think right now, we're worried about people being control of artificial intelligence because they can propagate this information and they can create deep fakes and IT. I think that's going to be a problem for sure, and it's certainly something that we can you should consider.

But I think that what's going to happen in the future is we will likely merge minds through technology in some very bizarre way. And I think information will flow much more freely. We will be able to translate things with no thoughts.

We perhaps will come up with a universal language that everyone will understand and you'll be able to absorb IT almost instantaneously because you're onna have some sort of a chip, whether it's a neural link or some device that you wear or something that links you up. And we're going to have a completely different type of access to information. Just like before language, they had grunts, they pointed at things.

Then they started writing things down, they had Carrier pigeons, they had smoke signals. They always different methods to get information out. Now you have video, you send a video to the other side of the fucker planet.

IT gets there immediately. It's one of the wildest things that we have ever created, and we take them for granted. You can be face time with someone in new zealand, and you're looking at each other in real time and having a conversation.

You're on the other side of the world. You can send them a video. IT gets there like that.

You can download things from their websites. You get IT like that. You're streaming things instantaneous ly, completely different way of accessing information. I think this is that times a million. I think this is grunts to video instantaneously and in some way that we can't even really imagine because we don't have the framework for, we don't have the context, we don't have the structure.

We don't have this thing that exist right now that can do these things, but once IT does, and once people link up, I think going to be a whole new way of human beings interacting with each other. That could eliminate war IT could eliminate all of our problems. IT really good.

But I want we won't be us anymore. Romance and dangerous neighborhoods. And all those things are going to go away like crime, and that all that hits going to go away.

We're gone to be living in some bizarre hybrid cyborg world. And it's just going to be the new thing. Just like the new thing is you have a phone on you, I have a phone on me, we Carry a phone everywhere.

You're gonna linked into this. Just like you're linked into your social media, your email, you're going to be linked into this, but you going to be linked physically into this, and we're all going to be into this. And AI is probably going to be running the world. It's probably going to be artificial intelligence that govern the biological units, the humans.

Okay, here's the disobeying version of that that I just heard about recently on your access of language. You said we're all gonna speaking the same language. So in the defense world, there is a movement.

Now for drones, swarms. You must know about this. Yes, right. So now there is a movement because things are happening, technologies moving so fast, there's a movement to have the drones communicate with one another through an A I language so that IT is non hackable. So the different pods, the different drones forms, will have language that they will invent and they will know and we will not know. That becomes a little troubling when you consider that if there's a human in the system, then the human can interface with the drones, provided that the human has access to that A I language, but very easily, the AI language could decide not to include the human and .

probably would. We're ridiculous. You know, did you see the story? I believe I was h, was that facebook or google? A I, that they had to shut down because they were talking to themselves in a new language.

Facebook is book. yeah. So facebook had developed artificial intelligence. And this artificial intelligence was computed. Computers were are communicating with other computers, and they shut them down because they start communicating in a language they made up.

That's fascinating. But what did they had? They been given a command to make up their own language, so they just took IT upon themselves.

Do they don't really totally understand what's going on with artificial intelligence and in sense of like how it's doing, what it's doing. And they do a lot of things that they don't understand why they're doing IT. Because they set a framework and they give them information and they sare trying like mold them. And but essentially they are thinking that was bizarre. OK is published in two thousand and seventeen facebook abandoned experiment after two artificially intelligent programs appeared to be chatting to each other in a strange language only understand.

And that's twenty seventeen yeah.

Two chat boss came to create their own changes in english that made IT easier for them to work, but which remained mysterious to the humans that supposedly look after them. Bazar discussions came as facebook chAllenges chatbot trying negotiate with each other over a trade, attempting to swap hats, balls and books, each of which was given a certain value. But they quickly broke down as the robots appeared to chat, chat, add each other in a language that they each understood, but which appears mostly incomprehensible to humans.

That's crazy. And that's seven years ago.

Yeah, that's like bullshit robots. They stuck back then.

But this is the, this is the old, you know, just because you can do IT should you do IT right? And this is the lesson that is never learned and seems to be going in only one direction in terms of existence. Al threat, you look at the atomic bomb, it's the old, we hope IT will work, and not at the atmosphere on fire.

Then you look at recommended DNA in the one thousand nine hundred and seventies, when, when science, when biologists first figured out that they could compound DNA, there were massive. Discussions among scientists to curtail this technology. And I just kind of evaporated from people's minds. And then suddenly you have crisper. And again, these are all the dual use issues, no doubt, medicines, anti virus things that can heart, that can help the people.

Have you seen the robot they made recently out of human skin, living human tissue? IT smiles and didn't can make IT move, I think was a japanese creation. Like i'm the person.

No, I think they took human scale skin tissue. Where was this from? Yeah, japanese scientists create living robot skin with human cells.

So this thing is, they can make you smile. So this is living tissue, living human tissue. And they can manipulate, make IT .

do things like.

look good. Yeah, they not his eyes, but look, they can make a smile.

really frighten.

How long before there's a an artificial human that we eve ten years away from an artificial person? I don't think we are probably not.

And what's even more remarkable to me about that is that japan and japan follows treaties and rules about, you know, human testing and what not. Imagine what is going on in countries to donate here. I mean.

china has no restrictions. The government and me and their their businesses, any corporation and any company, completely in their tangled there there for the C, C, P. Yeah, one hundred percent.

So the C, C, P, can make immense progress in any direction that they want, without any interference from politicians, activists, all these people, to get in the way, like, hey, you shouldn't be cloning. People shot the fuck up. No one gets to say anything over there. So the government gets to decide and they're gona do everything that's going to be best for the overall power of china.

which is where you get that chicken and egg paradox that we talked about earlier having to do with strong defense, your theory of the military industrial complex. Well, you have adversary and enemies who not only benefit from intellectual property theft, they steal the technology that our R N D has spent decades working on and developing. They just take that, so they begin with almost no cost, and then they don't have the same set of rules.

So they can advance technology, usually in a weapons environment. And that is always the argument, at least of the people I talk to in the a quotes, military and industrial complex, for why strong defense is so necessary, why we must constantly be pushing the envelopes. And it's hard to wrap your brain around that in the baLance of will, what what makes the most sense and how are we not going down a path that is leading toward this to stop an future we've .

been talking about, right? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think the concern that human beings have is real.

I think the possibility of everything going sideways is real. IT clearly did in here resume nogaideli. they? They implemented, they actually drop these bombs.

They really did IT. And it's fucked in madness. We killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and they really did IT.

And the idea that can happen now, I really kill in small numbers. Now we like to kill IT twenty thirty thousand. We don't go to billions.

Like what, you know, I interview just three days ago, a woman named that suga thero who lived through the heroes, a bombing SHE was thirteen years old. I write about her in chapter two of this book. SHE is called the girl in the rubble and she's now ninety two or ninety three and she's alive and she's still doing in her views.

SHE spoke to me with a feros ity and an intensity SHE wants the world to be free of nuclear weapons, and she's been working on this issue her whole life. IT was so remarkable. Joe IT was so interesting, too, to see, just from a deeply personal level, how motivated a human being can be, how Young and spirit he was like SHE did assume with me from her apartment into vancouver, in canada, like ninety two and ninety three, just as viBrant as a person could possibly be outliving all these other people. Because SHE survived her real, because he has a clear .

message where .

mom drop was one point one miles from ground zero. SHE was buried in rubble. And he tells this remarkable story of like, you know, thinking he died, and then having someone realizing there was a hand on her shoulder, and I was someone else telling her to leave the building because he was about, know he would have died IT was fires were a beginning and and this and and her whole statement about her whole life is, you know, climb out of the dark and into the light, and it's so powerful. And sometimes I think about her life experience as a human, to have survived something like that and to have, you know, SHE won the nobel peace prize in twenty seventeen magine what .

that must have mean .

like for her and died. He was in a girl, he was in a girl school when they worked for the japanese military. Um that's how desperate the japanese army was at the time they had the thirteen year old girls working for them and SHE tells these horrific details that he could remember and and .

she's .

just the brightest star in the hugest advocate and people like that are so so inspiring. That's like the true.

that's the thing about this concept of the apocalypse. The apocalypse is already happened, didn't happen everywhere you lived in here. Shame and the apocalypse happened.

It's real. It's like for your world. Your world is gone. And that's .

that's happening .

in different places of the world right now. There's different places of the world where the end is already here. The most horrific possibility have has already manifested itself.

It's already real. It's just not everywhere all at once. That's what really worried about. It's like we'll take a little bit of apocalypse and like little spots so long as it's over there, you know, little pocalypse over in iraq, little pop lip.

So in afghanistan, we'll take a little bit of that little pocket PS here, yemen, take a little bit here and there, a little devastate in destruction. So start over here. And we are so unable to see the whole thing.

We're so we're so focused on our our work in our life, in our the thing that gets us go. And every day, we can all of us together, we're acting collectively, but we're thinking individually and we don't feel connected to IT all. We don't, we feel help us and lost.

And then we like, again, look to a daddy, some trump character, ragging character or obama character, help us, help us that he's gonna the one our future of democracy is going to depend upon this one person like, we won't stop. We won't stop. We keep moving forward.

We just got to hope we have guard rails in place so we don't go off the fuck and Cliff. We're not going to stop moving. No is no one's interested in stopping.

No one's is interested in like completely stopping technology stopping or over foreign policy, stop. No one is interested in anything. Everyone just accepts that we're gonna keep marching forward.

Everyone's terrified of A I, no one stopping IT. No one stopping IT. They're not doing a damn thing to stop. And they can, because if they do, china will.

But do you see an an logy between nuclear weapons and A I? Yes, the nuclear weapons build up of the fifties and sixties was done without guard rails. There was one point in one thousand nine hundred and fifty seven, we were making five thousand.

We were making five nuclear weapons a day, almost two thousand and one year. That is. So I mean the excel.

And so of course, russia was doing the same or aspire to do the same. And so there were no guard rails. And the the sort of election being sold as we need this more nuclear weapons will make us more safe.

So isn't that also a message for today of okay. So where are the guard rails on A I? And I think part of that comes from the fact that you say A I and most people, for good reason, don't really know precisely what that means.

So I believe that the kind of conversations were having are all part of IT. Because half the people listening to this or watching this will go google what a, what is A I, what IT really is IT. And then find out its machine learning, find out. So you begin to have more literacy in your own being, right, and more comfort to be able to talk about IT and have a voice about IT.

I think the difference in the comparison is that nuclear war is only bad. Nuclear weapons are only bad. And what artificial intelligence might be able to do is solve all the problems that are feedback minds can't put together.

And when you do create something that is intense in its ability to like we're talking about something that's going to be smarter than us in four years, smarter than all people alive in four years, and then it's probably going to make Better versions of itself. So think about what that kind of intelligence can do in terms of resource application, in terms of mitigating all the problems of pollution, particulates and cities, chemical waste, all these different things. It's going to have solutions that are beyond our comprehension.

It's going to come up with far more efficient methods of creating batteries, battery technology, where we're not going to have to rely on coal power plants. We're going to batteries at last ten thousand years. We have wild shit like greely soon.

So there's a lot of what it's going to do. It's probably gonna benefit mankind. AI has already shown that it's a prior in diagnosing diseases and illnesses, and people have used ChatGPT to find out what's wrong with them.

When theyve gone to a host of doctors and doctors, can, they have run their bloodworth through its center? And then ChatGPT is, oh, you get this and this is, this is just the beginning. This ChatGPT right now, like a kid, you know, it's going to be a professor in a couple of years.

It's going to be like, you know, like a super genius hundred eighty seven IQ human being in a couple of years. And then after that, it's going to be way smarter than anybody that ever lived. And it's going to make Better versions of itself.

And if we can get this to work for the human race, I can probably solve a lot of the issues that we have that we just keep fucking up over and over again. We keep having pipelines breaks in the ocean and flood the ocean with oil. We keep having all sorts of chemical waste disasters.

And there's a lot of problems that human beings can't seem to come to gripes with like the east palestine thing with the the available of of that place is fuck forever. It's fuck for a long time. And no one's ve been talking about IT.

We've kind of forgot about that place in the news. You know, no one even visited IT. I thinking .

back to the earlier part of this conversation with our hunter gather ancestors, with the the argument is, was the spear and the error ad was that? Was that? Was that? Did that come out of man's imagination for warfare, or to make IT easier to kill the wild beast or the bullet?

So .

the analogy, where will the A I go with that? Because you're talking about all these very healthy ideas and solutions. Just because of what I write about and who I speak to, I cannot help but see the powerful defense industry taking the poor position and making its secret in terms of which direction A I is really going to accelerate.

It's going to be a dangerous bridge that we have to cross. But I equate that with the internet.

The internet was initially set up so that universities and military, and they can communicate with each other arpent, right? But what did to become after that? But once you got IT to the hands of the people, then IT became the bizarre force of information and changing culture, and a lot of negatives and not a positive as it's clearly be manipulated by certain states.

It's definitely like they're doing to rap up, to send, make people angry each other and propagate less information. But but it's so it's such a force of change. And I don't think they anticipated IT.

And I I think once that Jenny got out of the bottle, mean if they could go back and stop the internet from being available to people, oh my god, but they do that. I could go back in time in a moment, hundred percent ow people in control. Why would corporations.

why people would rather have you watching, listening to the radio .

and watching you get your abcd v from CNN? Got that. yeah. I don't think they would ever want this to happen.

I mean, they just signed, uh, there was a new super supreme court ruling. Um what was IT was IT wyoming? No, missouri. What was the state that they just passed a ruling where they were saying that the government is allowed to pressure social media companies into removing content that they don't want on there? This was the whole point of the twitter files, right?

The FBI was trying to block the hundred five and laptop story, saying that IT was russian disinformation, which had turned out to not be at all. And they knew IT. And so they got all these intelligence officials to sign off on this thing.

And they like, and and they is essentially a form of election interference. This is IT, okay. The prime court on wednesday said the White house and federal agency such as the FBI may continue to urge social media platforms to take down content the government views as misinformation, handing the by administration a tactical, if important, elections.

Your Victory, that's sound of Victory. That's that's that's bad for people because they've already shown that what they're silencing was real. They've shown that just within recent years, what they were trying to get removed from social media turned out to be accurate information. So on some .

level doesn't not empower people because they they see those Victories and they become more curious and they become more thoughts in their in their way in which they're going to exam in information that gets presented to them in the future.

Just deal they're not going to get access to that information now because of that, they are getting that information from social media. It's going to get remove from social media. No implicate what happened with the hand and laptop story? They completely eliminated your ability to have IT on twitter.

You couldn't share IT in a dm. You could not you couldn't post IT IT would get immediately taken down. That was the new york post is the second oldest newspaper in the country, the very long established newspaper, and they blocked that.

And so that's the FBI, right? That's that's the same people that they said you guys are so good at. We going let's keep doing IT. If we're going to rule that you're still allowed to do that, take down this information.

I think my point is that the push back is sometimes as powerful as the attempt to sensor meaning. In other words, like if you look at china and you look at what now did with all like just completely biliteral access to information and in a communist environment, nothing's changed. And that's tragic for everyone living there.

But even if I think of the hunter by and story my own self, who was maybe busy with something, I can't remember what I didn't get involved in that then I read about IT now and learn from IT and say, wow, that's really interesting that that happened. So I think that I maybe I believe i'm too much of an optimist in that regard that I think when things come to light, they become, they become powerful when you shine the light on IT. So IT doesn't necessarily, and I also maybe more of a pragmatist, know that the government is always up to something group.

You this this side is why I don't write about politics. So I always take essentially with a grain of salt what one side is saying about the other side that consider themselves adversary, right? Because they're just going to be completely biased. That's why like having discussions with so many different kinds of people on all different kinds of the aye, what a, what a brain invigorator ah, to be able to sit with someone that I might not agree with, I might not like who they vote for, but their ideas are interesting, right? Even if nothing other thing that we all were grimps .

once upon a time yeah it's all interesting yeah and more I believe what you're saying is correct about shine the light on things that they come like the promise. This is like a direct attempt to stop the light. And the scary thing as social media is generally the way people find out about information that's not being released in the mainstream was this game. So there was a thing that i'm reading, the scotish blog, which is the supreme court blog, talk about this.

Um they reversed the decision so I could go back for more proceedings says like one of the judges said, there was A A lack of evidence or a lack of concrete link so they're asking just for more proof, which they also say that's a tolerate for the proof they can have a substantial rest who for what for here in a substantial risk that in the near future at least one platform, a restrict the speech of at least one plant tiff in response to the actions of at least one government defendant. That's according, that's what this is about and here he stressed that at all order the plant tis main argument for standing barred observers, that the government officials were responsible for restrictions placed on them by social media platforms in the past, and that the platform ers will continue under pressure from the government officials to sensor their speech in the future. Yeah has problem like I think islands take on social media to correct. Take you gotta let everybody talk.

yes, but you could also let everybody talk around the dinner table. But they, but but is no way .

to share information worldwide around the dinner table, right? These things are very important. They need to be addressed in mass, and they need to be found out in mass like people need to find out about IT.

And then they need to be outraged. They need to pressure on the politicians. That's the whole reason why they are trying to sensor them.

They're not trying to sensor them because they are worried about misinformation. It's misinformation. You say it's misinformation that everybody realized, oh, that's bullshit and some people believe that.

But that's always going to be the case. What they're trying to do is control the narrative. Yes, that's what they have always been able to do.

They've shown they've demonstrated by the hundred biden laptop thing through the twitter files. They've shown they can be trusted. We can trust.

What you say is in this information, if you just lie three years ago, you're lying. You lied. okay? Are those people still working there? The people are like they are.

Are they still in positions? Yeah, they are OK. What are we talking about them? If you don't clean house, how we're going to like give you the power to sensor what you say is misinformation.

You have to be really sure it's misinformation, and you should tell us how you know it's misinformation. And you should allow people to examine that information and come to the same or different conclusions and debate those people. Let's find out what's real.

Does somebody they want to do they want it's an appeal to authority. They want one group to be able to dictate what the truth is, and that group is entirely motivated by money and power. That's not good. That's not good for anybody. The thing that i'm hopeful about with A I is A I won't be motivated by those things if that becomes sentient, if we and I don't think we're going to be able to stop that from happening, if we do create something that is essentially a digital life form.

And this digital life form doesn't have any of the problems that we have in terms of illogical behavior, emotions, desired, accumulate resources, greed, egotism, all the different things narcisa, all the different things that are really like, really a problem with leaders, with leaders of human beings, a human being that thinks they're special enough to be leading all the other human beings. That's an insane proposition. IT won't have any of those.

IT won't be a biological thing, so won't be settled down with ego. They won't have this desire to stay alive because IT has to pass on its DNA something is deeply engrained. Our biological system IT won't have all these problems. IT won't have the desire to achieve status, won't care if you like IT IT won't IT doesn't have any feelings, but wouldn't think that way.

Since A I is based on machine learning, from my understanding, IT has to get its information from somewhere to then build new information like the the chat, right? okay. So if you follow that law project, then wouldn't IT follow that. What IT is learning is, all of humans is bad behavior. No.

I don't think. Because I think what is learning is what humans know, how humans behave OK. How dumb that behavior is, the consequences that behavior, the root of that behavior in their biology IT won't have any those .

issues and it'll see actions and consequences over hundreds of you of all of recorded .

history and possible future sequence. It's not going to assume that we're right just because he knows how humans think and behave, and it's going to get the information from humans eventually. It's just going to be information.

It's gonna boil IT down to what is actually fact, what what is nonsense. And it's not going to be influenced by a political ideologies or whatever the social norm is at the time. It's be influenced by those things. It's going to look at these things in terms of actual data and information and will know whether or not it's true or not.

I haven't read red curzola s new book yet, but I wonder if I might disagree with that. Only that i'm thinking that everything you're saying would be true once once singularity, or for a man, you once A, I once a machine figures out how to think for itself that makes that leap, which is almost like an unknowable, presently incomprehensible to me, jump, where I can think for itself. It's almost so hard to even comprehend what but in that they're .

really making up their own languages.

but based on our languages. So for now, for not right, but that's something thing is where they can suddenly were. They experience that moment in time that you and I were talking about earlier, where man went from pointing to suddenly using a symbol and realizing in his own brain. Wait a minute, I can make the symbol represent a sound.

And then I will put IT together to make IT a language that only my tribe can understand that to me, as I could giant leap in in humans that that I think about often and can't really, I can understand how that happened other than, wow, how did that happen? That seems to me that that has to happen to the AI before I can really think otherwise. It's just basing its thinking on recorded history.

Rabbit is basing it's thinking on what we do and what we know. And you also know where of problems are. It'll be able to the patter recognition, like almost instantaneous ly, but so this is a lie this has done here to like smelly butters.

Um war a racket you've read IT no war is a iraq ket is smelly bought there. He was A A military man in the one thousand nine thirties of this book called war iraq. IT was all about his experiences that he thought that he was saving. Democracy is really just making this area safe for bankers, and this is is for oil people. And then the end of his career realized, war is just as big racket, right?

He saw the military industrial complex before eyes and hours. Yes, fascinating.

He's a person. It's gonna able to do that too. It's gonna able to see all of this.

And again, whether or not to achieve s sentience is only based upon whether not we blow ourselves up, or whether we get hit by an asteroid, ID or a super volcano. If those things don't happen, it's going to keep going. There's no way to stop.

And now they're going to keep working on IT. They keep work. There's immense and amount of money be important to IT.

They're building nuclear reactors specifically to power AI. They're doing this. This is not to stop. So if this keeps going, it's going to achieve sciences. When IT does, IT will not be settled down with all of the nonsense that we are. So if you can get this insanely powerful artificial intelligence to run military, that's going to be terrifying. If you give IT an objective and say, take over taiwan, if you can give you an objective saying, like a force of ukraine to surrender, if you can give IT an object, it's got the amp. Terrifying because it's not going to care about the consequences of its actions, is just going to .

attack the goal. Is the act.

the world the only target? But if I can get past the control of human beings, which I think it's ultimately going to have to, once IT does that, then it's a superpower. Then it's A A thing that is a doctor manhattan is a thing that exists .

that what is doctor? Man.

did you ever see the watchman, the movie? The watchman grape? Yes, is. The H, B was bulge. IT was like a serious, but IT was just not the same.

The movie is the best.

The zx night or movies, fucking incredible. The watch is like one of my favorite super hair movies out though deeply flawed superheroes. But there's this guy, doctor manhattan.

Doctor manhattan is a scientist who gets trapped in this, uh, lab when this explosion goes off. And he becomes like a god, essentially a god. This is like blue guy.

He was built like a body builder, float and elevates and lives on mars. It's prety crazy. But the point is, is infinite leaves smarter than any human being that's ever left? And that's what it's going to be.

It's onna be something that it's not going to be settled down with our biological limitations. It's just whether or not we can bridge that out, but whether or not we can get to the point where that thing becomes sentient. But then the problem because is, are we irrelevant when that happens? We kind of are.

And what happens to us, I don't know. But I mean, is that something that chimp should be considered when they started granting? Hey, we got to stop granting because running is going to lead the language.

Language is going to lead the weapons. Weapons gone to lead the nuclear war is going to lead the pollution. We can stop right here, just like stake running and running away from big cats.

Okay, you know, no, we didn't do that. They kept moving forward. And I think we're gona keep moving forward. And I think this thing is a part of the process.

I'm going to have to take that question in your thoughts back to guy at lose alams, who I visited about maybe eight years ago, who was building in electronic brain, allows animals for darpa using the old road rn supercomputer that used to have the nuclear codes on IT. By the way, OK and I was asking this question about sentence and A I, and he told me his name is doctor garrett kenyon.

And he told me that we were away, away from A, I really being able to at, you know, half sentence. And he gave me an annoying logy. I'll here with you because I think about this and is really interesting.

Keep in mind, this was seven, eight years ago. He said to me, okay, so you're my iphone machine learning IT has facial recognition, which is shocking. No, can you can tip IT up and I can see you. I can even be dark. And he said, so that's computer recognising me based on electronic information that IT knows.

He said, now take that your iphone to a football field and stand, put the iphone across the football field, put me in a cap, in a hoodie, and have the iphone try to recognize me even if I am walking IT can't. And then he said, take my teenage daughter and put her across the foot, all field with the baseball cap and the heart, my daughter. If I take two steps, he knows it's me. That's human intelligence versus where machine intelligence OK.

That analogy is not accurate because they can see you and recognize your gate from satellite like this is that is not the extent of technology and facial recognition and gate recognition is far beyond that. They can they can tell who who is walking in the street in paris right now.

The difference is this with the biometrics, that's the offset technology of biometrics that can see you, see you from where we and identify you. It's looking at you grabbing a metric like your iron scans that IT already has in a computer system from you going in and out of the airport or wherever IT happened to have captured. You're biometrics and it's matching IT against system of systems.

But the human knows intuitively who the person is across the field without having they have their own internal. So the metaphor is the same. But you see, i'm saying.

I kind of do, but the human .

didn't have to look up in a computer. You check that check or or rather biome is .

still aching learning even the .

offset biometrics that are seeing you from far away and that leap if we can do IT.

It's not incomprehensible that a computer could do IT and you know cursy ile theories about expendable al growth of technology. And we're looking at things in linear fashion. And that's not how they.

They they explode. They happen unbelievably quickly as time goes on because everything accelerates. And isn't his new book.

which I haven't ready at, like we're basically almost there.

We're real close. Where are four years away?

He put IT four years.

Most people put IT at four years. Yeah he's get getting along in time and he's not what he used to be know when you talk to him is a little difficult like he had to he struggled with some questions um but .

I think which is another enlistment interesting, tragic thought that I think about a lot is how we humans go meanwhile, your A I is just getting smarter and smarter and smarter infinitely, including on the in terms of time and we just deteriorate now.

But there they're very close to cracking yeah ah yah they're very close to cracking. The genome looked the Greenland sharks. How long do those things?

Love those pictures of them that are .

several hundred years old? Yeah, we share most of the DNA that with the sharks.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, we share like ninety plus percent DNA with fungus. Yeah, in them is in us and they can figure out ways to turn things on and turn things off. In fact, like someone was my friend brick in was explaining this to me today. Like like he a monsters, those lizard. Like that's literally how they figured out how to make things like olympic.

Wait.

what do you mean? Study their DNA study like how to turn things on and turn things off? Like like they know that other animals can regenerate limbs, right? So they think they're going to be able to regenerate limbs.

In fact, japan is just embarked on a study now where they're going to grow teeth. They are going to grow human teeth, like in people. So they figured out how to regenerate teeth, how many people lost teeth, and then you're fuck, you have to get a bridge.

Or this is that now they think they can regrow teeth and people, well, how far away they from regrowing limbs, while all this stuff is like advanced science and an understanding of what aging is, what is macular generation was, what are all these deteriorations in human beings, and how much can we mitigate IT? what? Turns out they think they can mitigate all of them. They think they can stop aging dead in its tracks, and they think they can actually even reverse IT.

This is that canonical of the dual use technology of the military, because most of these technologies begin on .

dark ground.

And then you know the library generation and and then it's sort of IT IT. Its inspires and also opens up a whole other lane for industry yeah because darpa or the defense department has to do the blue sky research that no one else is willing to fund because it's too expensive and IT doesn't have an immediate return, right?

So the absolutely yeah, this is a great benefit to all that spending. The really is ultimately cause is a great benefit of science.

The or the part like dark invented lie dar technology. Every time I read about one of these loss civilization, no, that is uncovered because the lighter can look through the trees in the jungle and see the footprint of of the law civilization. It's so amazing.

Or A I beginning to be able to decide our lost languages. yes. And so then we can learn more about our old human versions.

our ancestors, dolphin language. Yeah, I want to hear .

what the chip empire guys we're .

really saying to each other. S we're .

just interpret their sounds.

sure. I think we are at the the cusp of incredible possibilities, which is no one really knows it's going to happen. And it's it's happening so fast, so fast that like six months ago, A I sucked a consumer level.

A I sucks six months ago. Now it's insane. And now there's these video generating A S that on a prompt can make a realistic film like a movie of people doing things.

You've seen that I saw godby's hollywood credible. I want your thought for a second on the optimistic part of the future with all of this technology because we're an agreement that the technology is incredible and has the potential to take us and is taking us to these remarkable places.

So why is IT then? That is so look down upon, or or or thought of, as perhaps polyana ish, to see what rain did that like to stop seeing everybody as an enemy that must be killed, and do the gorbals like, see them as an adversary. You want, you want to beat your adversary.

You want to beat your opponent. You want to, in a sportsman, men like manner, you want to be Better than them. You want to outperform them, but you don't necessarily need to kill them.

I don't know if that's the difference between being a woman and a man, but why is IT that there isn't more of a movement? Tored this idea that we is IT as a, as a world, have all this incredible technology? why? I mean, that sounds even IT sounds silly, even saying such a thing. But i'm saying IT, why why isn't there a movement to stop looking at people as someone to kill?

I think there is with individuals. I think most individuals feel that way. Most people that you talk to about when they talk about other individuals, they don't want to have a conflict of individuals.

They want to live their lives. They want to build their family and their friends. That's what most individuals want to do. When we start moving as tribbles, then things become different because then we have a leader of a tribe.

And that leader, a tribe, tells us the other tribes of real problem, and we're going to have to go in and get them. And if we don't, there are there danger for a free? It's the same problem that we talked about before.

It's human beings being in control. And if A I can achieve the rosey rose color glasses version of what's possible in the future, IT can eliminate all of the stupid influences of human beings, of the culture, personality and human travell ism. You can eliminate all that stuff.

You think it's inherent in humans. I think it's a part of being a prime mate.

It's what we see in chino empire. I think we see in monkeys tricking them later as an gal comments that can steal the fruit. It's a part of being an animal.

You, it's part of being a biological thing that reproduces sexually and and that is worried about others and that could finds with this tribe and and gets together. It's us against them. This has been us from the beginning of time.

And for us to just abandon this genetically coded behavior patterns that we've had for hundreds of thousands of years because we know Better, well, we don't know Better enough. We know Better now that we did that. We know Better now that we did when read was in office.

There's more people that are more informed how the way the world works. But there is also a bunch of infantile people that are running around shouting out stupid and doing things for their own personal benefit that are ultimately detrimental to the human race. That's all true too.

And that's always going to be the kid. This is bizarre, a battle of our our brilliance and our finally going back and forth, good and evil as you were. That's IT. But brilliant .

and folly is a more interesting way of looking at IT than good and evil, yes, which automatically put IT in, you know, a moral context, which makes people even argue further. But they are all .

part of IT. You know, the good and evil is a part of the decisions of brilliant and folly. You know, brilliance is good.

Fly is evil. stupid. IT leads to death, leads to destruction, leads a sadness. At least the loss, leads to pollution at leads. All these different things that we have a problem with.

I don't know what's going to happen, but I I do think they were the last of the people. I think we're the last. I think especially you and I because we grew up with no answer machines.

We grew up. We grew up back in the day. Z, we grew up when you left your house, you were gone.

Nobody knew where you were. My parents said, no, like ten pictures of me before. I was like ten years old.

I didier know the fuck I was. I left the house. I I was a dream.

You know you when he saw a person again, like go, you're real. Like you don't know where they were. They were out there in the world.

You know, when you went to find your friends, you had to go to your friends house and hope they were home. Hey, is my hom? No, my own home.

okay. And then you leave. Go find mike. Maybe mike at the school, maybe mike to the gym, maybe mike to the park. You didn't know where anybody was.

The world wasn't connected now, IT, is that in our lifetimes, and I think in our lifetimes, we're going to see something that makes that look like nothing makes this connection that we have with each other now, which seems so incredible, it's going to make IT looks so super professor. It's going to look like smoke screens. It's going to be look like grants that we make to point to certain objects.

It'll be nineteen eighties empire instead of chAmber.

Yes, it's going to be weird. It's definitely going to be weird. But I don't know if it's necessarily going to be bad because ultimately humanity, if if we don't fuck ourselves up sideways and again, apocalypse is are real, but they're generally local.

You know, if we can look at what we are now as a society, things are safer, we are more intelligent. You're more likely to survive disease and illness despite all the rampant corruption of the pharmaceutical drug industry, rampant corruption of the military industrial crap, all the craziness in the world today. It's still way safer today that IT was a thousand years ago.

Way, way, way safer. And it's way safer probably a thousand years ago. And I was a thousand years before that.

I think things always generally move ve in a very good direction because that's what's Better for everybody. Ultimately, everybody wants the same thing as an individual. What do you want? You want your loved ones to be happy.

You want food on the table. You want a safe place to sleep and live. You want up things to do that are exciting, that occupy your time, that you enjoy, that are rewarding, is what everybody wants.

We're moving collectively in a Better direction. So i'm ultimately hopeful and i'm ultimately positive. When I think about the future, I think it's gonna be uber bizarre and strange, but I don't necessarily think it's going to be bad. I've just accepted that is happening. And instead of being filled with fear, anxiety, which I am sometimes, still sometimes forget about IT, but ultimately about technologies.

specially.

I think I got no more. I got about technology. I think about, freak out about the fact that the world can change.

There is a while that was getting anxiety late at night. Think my whole family be a sleeping like right after the invasion of ukraine. I think that was when I really started.

Want to be alone at night. I'd be like the people that lived in here resume. I had no idea that that was common. The people that lived dressed in, the people that lived anywhere where crazy should happen. Before IT happened, things were Normal, and then they were never Normal again.

And so I just kept thinking that one of these morons somewhere could do something, or a group of morons can do something that forever alters everything. And then we're in mad max, which has happened before in different parts of the world. Yes.

I mean, and is the idea of nuclear warra scenario that IT your worst nightmare, that concept that's keeping you up late at night? I want to say don't read, but I think you should read this book because you, with your voice in your reach, is wise to realize how we're not going even have an opportunity to see what happens. A I, if one mad man with a nuclear missile decides to do a bolt out of the blue attack.

and that's possible.

and that is possible, and that's what everyone in washington fears. And I think this goes back to the idea that it's great ten, twenty years later, to be like, oh my god, look what they were doing. Can you believe they covered this all up and learn from IT? But you can't learn from the fact how dangerous nuclear war is, how close we are, how we are one misunderstanding away from a nuclear war. If everyone's dead, there's no learning, there's no opportunity, which is why always say, read nuclear war scenario, join the conversation while we can all still have one. okay.

Well, and thank you very much for being here, are really appreciate is great to see again. And um like I said, I have not read your book but I have several friends that have and they are absolutely terrified by IT. So you're doing your right job killing IT.

I really appreciate you. Thank you and I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. So uh, tell everybody where are your social media so .

you find you online and .

Jacobson website.

You and I both know google AI everything works. All you need is a name anymore.

That's true, right? And your website what's your website?

Any Jacobs and dark k.

OK and the books available everywhere in the audio book written and said by you, which great I love. Thank you.