We Are Celine
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Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jan Arden Podcast and Show. I'm here in Toronto where there is a heat wave, and I feel like my underpants have disappeared up my bum. That's all I want to say. I walked down the street with underpants, and within 10 or 15 minutes, my underpants have been eaten by my own body. But welcome to the show, Sarah Burke, Caitlin Green. Caitlin, I am so goddamn jealous of you. I am Celine.

You win. Oh my God. I'm going to shut up. Go. I went to the premiere at TIFF. And if you want to see it in theaters, because I do feel that if you're a hardcore Celine fan, it's like the Taylor Swift documentary, but not like, not like a big concert fun party, but it's like, you're there with other fans and people are giving their emotional responses audibly in the theater. So it is playing at TIFF. If you're here in Toronto, people are gasping. I would imagine. Oh my God. Like you're crying. You're gasping. You're laughing. You're like, you're saying, oh my God out loud. Like there was somebody was like, our

queen. Like people are just like, they're her like fans, like her fans are very, very, very loyal about this. And so this issue of her having stiff person syndrome has been in the news. It's kept her away from performing for a long time. So this documentary titled I am Celine, which is going to be released on Amazon prime as well, is all about pulling back the curtain on what she's been dealing with in her health and in her life and why it's kept her away from the stage. And I really appreciated the fact that she, she did this for her fans.

to say, you know, this is why I was canceling shows. Lots of celebrities will say, you know, I have an ear infection. I have this, whatever. No, this is serious and this is what's going on and I'm going to tell them because you can tell she considers her fans to be family. So, yeah, there was a red carpet. It was ridiculous.

there were, you know, celebrities there. And there was a live stream between the New York city premiere where she physically attended in person and then the Toronto premiere. And so we got to see her on the screen, come out on stage, introduce the film, the director of the film introduced it as well and went into some of the details on it and how amazing it was to work with Celine and how she just like gave everything. And it's just her telling her life story herself. And it's,

So good. I mean, it is. I'm not just being hyperbolic because I'm a fan. It is Academy Award level, in my opinion, as a documentary fan. The score, not even just her music, like the use of the cello. Like I just there was so much of it that was fantastic. And you see her have, though, this crisis level seizure on camera towards the end of the film. And like it is.

It's just so unbelievable to witness because it's an exceptionally rare medical disorder. And you're not sure what it means when you hear stiff person syndrome and that she has muscle spasms. Like you don't know how serious this is. And you walk away feeling like she is so lucky to be alive and to have the care that she does. And she's obviously creating endowments now to continue research into this. And she's

doing a lot of this to raise public awareness about it. And she has people in her home caring for her 24-7. Oh, and you see them? They're her lifeline. They are there with her every step of the way trying to keep... Not everybody has that. No, and she says that. She says, you know, I just... You know, she has all these resources and this fame and this... Even without her medical team, she has this team of other people behind her from her years in the entertainment industry. So she really does have everybody kind of rooting for her.

Did she talk about, like, you know, how the idea to actually do the documentary came about? Like, did she approach them or did they approach her? Like, how did...

I think that the inception of it was that she wanted to tell her story and that may, and she made contact with this woman. And I forget which other documentaries she's done in the music and the performer space. Her name is, her first name is Irene and I'm forgetting her second name, but she wanted to work with her and man, did she pick the right person? Irene Taylor. Irene Taylor. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. She said when she walked in, she was.

gobsmacked at how sick Céline was and that she had no makeup on, hair pulled back, white crisp shirt and came to the door and she was like, holy fuck, this woman is really, really sick.

like and she's not leaving her house and she talks about the stress of canceling shows and then if she is feeling sort of okay she still didn't want to go out with her kids and be seen having a good time because she's in the midst of canceling all these shows and fans are going to see her being happy um and then think well i thought you weren't actually doing so well and that's why you're canceling all your shows right now so it it pulls back the curtain on how that would impact a performer psychologically to be in that space you also see this is a woman who has

only ever known performing only ever wanted to sing her whole life she has been doing this since she was 12 years old and so to the grief associated with losing this piece of her identity is crazy and the fact that she is still steadfast in her resolve to return in some capacity to the stage however she may be able to do that however she sounds is is what's your feelings about that

I mean, it's tough to imagine the way that the film ends that she is going to be back in the mix anytime soon. There have been rumors, endless rumors always online about could she pop up at the Olympics in Paris? Could she be like these things happen? But all those things that they've talked about with stiff person's disease.

is that lights are triggers, motions are triggers, sounds are triggers, the excitement, accelerated heart rate, adrenaline, like anything to do with your immune system. So imagine, you know, even conceivably considering something like singing at the Paris Olympics. What goes along with the preparation?

Like, even if you let's just put this out there, even if you lip sync to a track that was pre done, you still have to stand there physically holding a microphone or stand. And conceivably, she could go into these fits, but

by just standing because she doesn't know when they're coming. Is this correct? Yeah. You watch her. She tries to record towards the end of the film. And this is a spoiler alert for anyone who wants to, but she turned us off for a moment. Yeah. Um, earmuffs or fast forward by 15 seconds. So she goes into the studio to perform for the first time in two years. And she's on day two of trying to do this. And it is a very emotionally triggering, depleting thing for her because if it doesn't go well, she feels like she's worked all these years to come to this point and it hasn't panned out for her and she still can't

So a lot's riding on this moment in her head. And after the second day of performing, she goes back and her physical therapist who's with her at all times pretty well, he notices that she points out that her foot has started to go into a spasm. That foot spasm then spreads to the other foot. She can't calm down, spreads to her hands, spreads to her face. And then he's,

he says she's face down on a massage table and he says she's going into a crisis level seizure and they have to administer two sprays in her nostril and they like they're dating it they have doctors on the phone they're like this we're doing it at this time it's this much like they're very precise on their dose but it i believe is an opioid type spray designed to try to help her relax in those moments and he after afterwards is addressing the camera and the rest of her staff and saying

Anytime her brain is overstimulated, whatever that looks like to you, it could mean going to Canada's Wonderland or could mean taking the TTC. Anytime that happens for her and this would have been one of those situations, she runs the risk of going into one of these episodes. And that, again, goes to show that when she was at the Grammys and came out on stage, I

how challenging that would have been. And that everyone thought, oh, Taylor wasn't giving her this big embrace, this big, you know, bow down moment. Well, actually everybody was given instructions like kind of don't touch her, like kind of just treat her like she's in this glass box because she is. And we just don't know this is the path forward for somebody with such a rare disorder. They really are learning as they go.

So if she goes, you would hope that it means she's reaching new heights in her progress. But the way that the film was left, you feel thankful that she's alive. And you really want her to protect her health and well-being because she has children. She has people who love her, including all of her fans. Part of me wishes she'd stop. I know. You can't tell her to stop, though. I know, Sarah. But I...

It's very different for me. I mean, as someone who's also sung since they were 10 years old, I certainly haven't achieved any kind of world fame. I am not, I would never in my life consider myself

Even a great singer. I'm a good singer. I'm nothing like that. And I mean that earnestly. I'm not fishing for compliments. I know what it is that I do. But you understand. I'm a songwriter. I do understand. But what I was about to say is that the stage has never been my life. I never looked at anyone at any time in my life and said, I want to be an international star.

I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a songwriter. I wanted to be a creator. It's a very different thing than to aspire to fame and having the whole world know who you are. That's a whole different thing. And further to that, to have the stage be your life. The stage is not my life.

It's a job. I love going out there and doing it. It's fun. If I didn't do it again tomorrow, I would be absolutely fine. I do a lot of other things. I've never hung my heart out.

Or my, who I am as a person has nothing to do with music, which is so funny. It's part of the equation, but who I am is my friends, my dog, my land, my house, traveling, watching sports, reading books, writing. Do you know what I mean? I don't have a singular purpose in my life. So for her, yes, I'm absolutely not taking away from the tragedy that is because I'm

Listen, you know, in a lot of ways she was indoctrinated very young as well. You know, like I said, Renee mortgaged his house. She was with this man who was 30 or 40 years older than her, her entire career until his death. And there's a lot of twists and turns within her personal story.

It's not normal. It's not a normal story. No, it's an exceptional story. And I think that's part of why the documentary itself is so compelling. And you also see her dedication to stage performance, to live performance specifically. The best, like I said, the best I've ever seen. Agreed.

I've never seen anyone better and I've seen her more than any other artist in my lifetime. When I've had an opportunity, I go see Celine Dion. And also too, the way the accolades on her voice, the way she held the highest note, the longest at this song and all this stuff.

And so she says, so now, you know, if I come out and maybe I try singing lower or quieter or doing more like folk, like, but to have to then fall to the point that she's at from where she was, that's a grieving process. And you can very much see it's an active grief for her right now. And she's such a perfectionist too. Like you, you go through this warehouse of all of her outfits that she's worn on stage and at these shows. And she talks about

the effort she put into like, I wanted you to see the white shirt that popped through the cuffs, but I couldn't wear it underneath because it was too bunchy for me and I couldn't perform in it. So we put snaps on here and she remembers the year that she wore it and where she was like, you know, it's her whole life. And she loves her children. And she has, I thought, Jan, you're going to get a kick out of her dog. Her dog is like this big, chunky Labrador retriever and its name is bear. And,

She's always hanging out with Bear and you see her big cozy house. And the other thing too is the people who work for her, they love her. They've worked for her for 30, 35 years. That speaks volumes. The way she addresses the person opening the car door for her. The way she, like she's just, she is class. So I loved it. I think anyone, you know, if you're a super Celine fan or not, the way that the film is done and the way the story is told is it touches on so many interesting things. You'll love it. Well, she's got a world of,

literally a globe praying for her, sending her positivity. And I pray that in the next few years, they do find a,

a breakthrough. But you know, we've looked at people like Michael J. Fox for the last 20 years, painstakingly making his way through Parkinson's disease. And the light that he has shown, Parkinson's was kind of this disease that was sort of old people. It was the shakes that you got when you turned 75. There was very little understanding about it, very little spoken about it. This is a man that has raised hundreds of millions of dollars for Parkinson's research. And because of Michael J. Fox,

the amount of progress that they've made in Parkinson's disease and neurological, because that is also a neurological disorder. But the thing to note, everybody listening, this is going to happen to anybody at any time. You know, she was having symptoms in 2008. So, um,

A, when shit's happening to you guys, if you have numbness in fingers or toes, listen, I'm not trying to make anyone paranoid, but don't leave it for five years. Make sure that you do go to your doctor. There's so many things going on in the world right now. I don't know. It seems like there's more stuff. It seems like multiple sclerosis, like MS. You're seeing all these young people, Christina Applegate and

Selma Blair, too. Yeah. Selma Blair, just these young women getting something that was so rare and it's not rare anymore. And then they're talking about Parkinson's being particularly a dominant force in British Columbia. It's there's a lot of it there more than anyone like Michael J. Fox has spoken to that about that. Anyhow, the other thing I want to touch on, please talk about Justin Timberlake. Yeah.

Okay, Justin Timberlake got arrested for a DUI in Sag Harbor, which is pretty well the Hamptons, like Hamptons adjacent. So he's there partying with some friends and claims that he only had one martini. The officers, I guess, who administered his field sobriety test said, I don't think so. So they pulled him over.

He refused a breathalyzer three times. That's kind of a red flag. But any lawyer would tell you to refuse a breathalyzer. For sure. So he's refused it three times. And then and then he can't walk the straight line. He's wobbly. He's glassy. His speech is slowed. And so his car was swerving when he drove. And so they take him in.

So they take him in, but because Justin Timberlake has become a very reviled public figure in recent years and, you know, deservingly. Why? Well, because of the whole thing he did with Britney because of the way he treated Britney. Janet Jackson. A lot of people don't like the troll song. He's repeatedly allegedly cheated on Jessica Biel. Like there's a lot of allegations out there about him treating women like crap. Well, this is not voting well for him then, is it? No, but I just want to say.

that there is an account, you've probably seen it if you're on Twitter, called Pop Crave. And so Pop Crave has this, you'd recognize it if you saw the icon, the thumbnail that you use, and they report on pop culture all the time. And because Twitter changed their verification rules that anyone with like five bucks a month can buy a blue checkmark and look verified, a lot of satire accounts came out. One satire account came out called Poo Crave. Ha ha ha!

pretending to be Pop Crave. And they posted an update on Justin Timberlake that people actually fell for. From the account Poo Crave that said Justin Timberlake allegedly had traces of Molly, Poppers, Truvada, and Coke in his bloodstream following his DWI arrest in New York. And everyone, like I had friends say this to me. Oh, well, he had X, Y, and Z. I was like, do you guys think that they got the forensics

back fast enough they got the already like overnight they have the like a number one and it's from an account whose handle is called poo crave so we need to start teaching media literacy in schools i think he can afford a driver he can afford an uber there's no excuse for you know having two three martinis and getting behind the wheel your car like you're a loser but he's

Question your headlines, everyone. Question your headlines. Well, there was also something about the police officer that arrested him had no idea who he was. Which is hilarious. He's like, you know, this is really going to affect my tour. He said under his breath, he's like, this is, yeah, this is going to be really bad for the tour. And the officer was like, what tour? And he said, the world tour. And I thought, he has a...

opportunity right now to rebrand his tour as called what tour like if he called his tour what tour I honestly think he might see a boost in ticket sales because ticket sales have been not very good for him but yeah a young small town police officer not knowing who Justin Timberlake is is incredible and it's also violence against elder millennials because it made me feel like I was 10,000 years old

Well, listen, there's a lot going on today. We're going to really switch gears here. We have a really amazing guest come out and I'm going to give her a proper introduction when we come back from this short break to expound the virtues of our sponsor. Thank you to everyone that's supporting the Jan Arden pod because Jan

We want to keep doing big things, don't we, girls? We're even planning a live event sometime hopefully this year where you guys can come. But Catherine Legg, she's working on a new podcast and a documentary film. But the big clincher here is that she's going to be one of the

women in media podcast people. She's going to be one of our creators. And so congratulations to you, Sarah, once again, for building your empire. And Caitlin and I are just, you know, we're along for this damn ride. But I'm just here hearing about it, holding a giant baby. Your baby's so cute. Anyway, we're going to be right back after this short break. Don't go away. Catherine Legge is going to join us. You're listening to the Jan Arden Podcast and Show.

Welcome back to the Jan Arden Podcast. This is your friend Jan Arden. I'm here with Sarah Burke and Caitlin Green, who are both in their Toronto abodes, and I'm also in my Toronto abode today. I have flown in to see the Sarah McLachlan concert tonight. So by the time you hear this on Friday, I will have been there. I probably will have been crying most of the night,

and reminiscing about my youth. The Fumbling Towards Ecstasy record that really launched Sarah into the stratosphere is 30 years old this year. 30 years old. We have a lot of music to talk about today, but we also have right out of the gate someone who is so amazing. Apparently, we have spoken a couple of times before, and I'm going to have Catherine address that

Catherine Legge is an award-winning, brilliant filmmaker. She's a showrunner. She's a journalist, an executive producer, a programmer. She has worn many, many hats.

She has a real penchant for intimate, investigated documentaries, which lends themselves so much into this true crime realm. She's worked on The Fifth Estate, a wonderful documentary called The Unsolved Murder of Beverly Lynn Smith, an Oshawa girl, so a real Canadian connection there. Her new film, which I'm going to let her talk about, her new podcast,

is dealing with someone who was falsely accused in Louisiana.

Without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, the wonderful Catherine Legg joins us today on the Jan Arden podcast. Catherine, hi. Hi. Thank you for that wonderful intro and bringing back the memories of Sarah McLachlan. I can't believe it's been 30 years. That's amazing. First of all, your new podcast, which is going to be launching very soon, is going to be here on the Women in Media Network family. So we're pretty excited about that. Tell us about what you've been doing and

What's happening today in your world? Sure. Okay, so I can't think of a better place for it because you know I kind of stumbled onto Sarah on on LinkedIn of all places because I was you know in the midst of you know, my frenzy of trying to put together any kind of piece of journalistic documentary any kind of work these days and very tough and dynamic markets and

And I was going through all the regular channels. You know, I'm very experienced, as you said, and in good ways and bad. And you get to know what you're up against when you come up with a new project. And I was up against all of it and working independently, you know, driven by passion, starting to feel like documentary would be a hobby of mine rather than actual entertainment.

ever providing income again. And so I found her and I connected immediately with the indie spirit. And then when I found the network and of course, you know, your story and Caitlin's story, and I know your story, of course,

Huge fan going way back, Jan. I just think it's one of independence and it's one of, you know, women at the top of their game having a certain amount of know-how, wisdom, rights we've done, wrongs we've done, things we've figured it out, and being able to really stretch in the right ways.

And so, you know, I talked to Sarah and I said, listen, I have this huge story. It's not something that's going to be it's not a big documentary about a famous sports person or celebrity. So it's going to be a hard sell. It's really important. I'm basically working to save a man's life right now. It's life or death stakes.

And I think even bigger than that in terms of our justice system and I need to get it going and I just kind of you know, she said well, let's just start and

And I felt so liberated. Like, is that the most liberating thing you can imagine is just saying, yeah, like, let's just start. Yeah. And I've been working with this wonderful woman, Suzanne Reber, who's, you know, kind of a me version in podcasting. She's a pioneer. She's one of the first people who really created podcasting. Investigative journalist, won every major award.

and trailblazer. And then we have a young, you know, hardest working woman in show business, Tara Suri, who's working with us. And she's bringing up the Gen Z's for us. And she is, you know, jumped right into so all of us, we just said, Yeah, let's do it. And

Here we are. Tell us about the story. Tell us about this man that you're trying to save from the gallows, as it were. It's true. So you start to wonder. I mean, when I pitch this to people, I say, yes, it's about a wrongful conviction. And most people say, oh, it's so sad. There's so many of those. And my question is, why? Why?

Why are there so many of those? And why are there so many of those playing out right now from the 90s? And it's funny you mentioned 30th anniversary because this story is actually on its 30th anniversary.

And I can't say too much about it because it is highly investigative. This person's life and liberty are at risk. And at this point, we're navigating things very carefully. We've got essentially the state up against us. We've got, you know, the powers of the state fighting back.

on this case. And so we are being very cautious about details. But what I can tell you is that this is a case of justice gone very wrong. The title of it is The Murder That Never Happened. And that tells you right away that this is a very unique story. And tying in that idea of why are there so many wrongful convictions from the 90s, I was able to look at his story where essentially a town

you know, police, prosecutors, and the people of this town. Small town, I would imagine. Small town, not small enough, but small town. They came together, and in what I describe as a moral panic, they framed a man for a murder that never happened. He was convicted for the worst, most heinous crime you can imagine. The details are an absolute horror show.

Everything was provided to this jury to present one side of this story. And he was convicted and sent to death. What a nightmare. What an absolute nightmare. My brother spent 28 years in jail for a crime that he still to this day says he did not commit.

that he had nothing to do with. The interesting thing that you say about the 90s is, and people don't realize this, DNA had yet to make its appearance on the world stage. So if, and Catherine would know a lot about this, if you were a person that, you know, was involved in a crime or not in a crime, the DNA can either convict you or exonerate you.

My brother's DNA was collected, of course, after it happened, but and as was the victims. And it was all burned, you know, 12, 13, 14 years after he'd been in prison. And the RCMP basically just said, it's our right. We don't have space or whatever. They literally burnt evidence that would have exonerated him, according to him. But anyway, he gladly gave all his stuff.

It is interesting and heartbreaking. And I'm sure there's pushback for you as a filmmaker taking the side of someone who's been accused of a heinous crime. And here you are defending him. So you have the family of this person that was murdered.

probably pushing back, like we've got our man, leave sleeping dogs, lie, let them lie. Like what kind of things are you dealing with on that side? I mean, I, and I didn't know those details about your brother. It's so interesting, but of this era, you're right. One of my key notes on this is this is pre DNA, right? Like pre DNA, what you had was the state

And they had, you know, the police, the prosecutors in the U.S. especially, they're elected. They've got to get a conviction. And then you've got experts that they had. And the state would put up these experts that would testify with absolute certainty to the most ridiculous things, blood spatter and bite marks and hair analysis and all of this nonsense, fake news.

you know, forensic science and they would say it's 100% sure that this person did it. So what's a jury to do? Interestingly enough, a couple of other people who were convicted on similar evidence to the man in this case, they've been exonerated by DNA since. But because this crime didn't happen,

It wasn't a crime. It was an act. It's so bizarre. It actually turned out there was a death, but it was not a murder. And this is what he will be able to prove this fall when he goes to court, when they actually undo the original trial and bring experts and testimony, some from the same trial to prove his innocence and even prove that the crime didn't happen. But he doesn't actually have that.

exonerating moment because how can you prove a negative? But also in this case, and this is something so common of this era of the 90s, and this is why I think all convictions from that era should be questioned, especially ones

that are death penalty level. Like, you got to be pretty damn sure. Well, thank God we don't have that in Canada. Thank God. Thank God my brother didn't face that. But you know what, Jan? There's people here talking about bringing it back. And I think we're one election away from it being reconsidered. We have leaders talking about life without parole, a terrible idea. It has never worked.

We have leaders talking about extending sentences. We have leaders talking about reintroducing capital punishment in Canada. And it's at its highest percentage of favor

since it was abolished in 1979. So you're right, I countlessly look at similar cases to this and say at least we didn't have the death penalty in Canada. But I know people in Canada that the Innocence Project has cleared, and they maybe spent one or two years in prison for the same crime as this gentleman, but their lives are destroyed. And you know, you know that you don't get it back again.

Yeah, no, my brother is a, it's, I mean, the very famous case in Canada, of course, is David Milgaard.

who was accused of a crime that he did not commit and he was released eventually and he got a fairly substantial amount of money and we all know what happens when you give people that are ill-prepared to receive millions of dollars and go out into the world and all the people around him that gave him bad advice but it was a tragedy. There was no way back. What is the long game here? So let's say this man who

remains nameless right now in Louisiana. If he is indeed proven innocent of this whole bizarre non-murder murder that he was convicted for, what is your hopes for this man? Part of this story is this whole peak crime that happened in the 90s. This panic, this moral panic about peak crime. It

was in Canada, it was in the US and the UK, all at the same time. Speak to that a little bit. This is fascinating. But if you were to look at when they started measuring violent crime in 1960, and you looked at 2024 today, it would look like this, like a mountain. And basically, at the top of the peak of that mountain is 1991 to 3.

And that was just a demographic trend. I preach statistics. And so when you understand the statistics, you can see that demographically, there was just a huge population of young people.

And they were in their 20s around that time, teens to 20s, which is the prime time for committing crimes. And this was the pre-DNA time. And we had these moral panics. The satanic panic was going on. You know, this idea, the Central Park Five were convicted wrongly at this time. Now the Exonerated Five, the West Memphis Three, there's all these big cases of

absolute hysteria that happened from the public that made justice go very, very wrong. This is one of those cases. And I believe this is playing out across the country in death rows across America right now. And some still in Canada, people who were wrongly convicted at that time out of a hysteria and a moral panic and not really good laws. But we made these bad laws. I mean,

Interestingly enough, in Canada, we did almost nothing. But in the US, they created this 1994 crime bill that's still playing out today. And only because of one little reform that was created, which was a factual innocence law in Louisiana, this man was able to get his case on the books.

he would not even have got a court date if it were not for this little reform that happened. And that's why it's so important we understand the laws that we have around crime and punishment when we're taking people's lives and liberty. How did you hear about this? Just my research. What was it that, I mean, out of the thousands, I would imagine, of

of people, men and women who are wrongfully convicted, what drew you to this man? You said there was a body, but that this body was not murdered. It was nothing nefarious. They just made up a murder? Well, there are thousands of cases of non-true crime, it's called, or non-murder murder cases every year. Okay, that is, this is...

horrifying to me. It is because and where it comes from, Jan, and this is what's so interesting, is it usually comes from a coroner, medical examiner, you know, this is the power of the state where one person's determining something is a homicide or something is not a homicide. And so a lot of times medical examiners can make mistakes.

Like if someone was to fall down the stairs and all of a sudden the son is a suspect, the husband's a suspect, the 14-year-old daughter's a suspect. So you have one guy walking in there and going, the way her neck broke on that third step, that was intentional.

Exactly. And it happens. The saddest thing is it happens mostly with children and parents. So you've got a parent who's already lost a child. I mean, this was the case for all these shaken baby syndrome, which we know is junk science. You look at the Ontario now disgraced Charles Smith. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. Catherine is that. So this was an area that was interesting to me. I actually studied making documentary films when I was back in school.

And I worked momentarily in the photo research department at the Toronto Star and who joins the photo library at the Toronto Star shortly after his release, but Robert Baltovich. Robert Baltovich is a famous case here in Toronto where he was wrongfully convicted and served eight years in prison for the murder of his, at the time, girlfriend, Elizabeth Bain. This was also around the time that the Scarborough Rapist was very active and becoming increasingly violent around the U of T Scarborough campus, which is where Elizabeth attended.

And so the police did what they always kind of do in these, these cases that go so sideways as they develop this first theory and they put blinders on and then they don't see past it. And because she expressed in her diary, some issues with Robert in their relationship, they zero in on him as being the likely suspect. He also at the time was like, when I met him, he was,

I mean, coming out of jail. So he had been pretty traumatized. But you could also see that he was very methodical in his thinking and the way that he presented. And so someone like that perhaps wouldn't necessarily interview well with police. And they just decided that this guy did it and they threw him in prison and his conviction was overturned, although they never awarded him any sort of financial compensation for the eight years that he spent in prison. And so I

I have been aware of the wrongful convictions, at least in Canada, for a long, long time. Like Charles Smith being a really great example of someone who worked at SickKids Hospital, a world-renowned hospital, and was considered this top pathologist who would put parents in jail for shaking their children to death. And it just was not true. And then he basically...

basically claimed that it was a failing of competency on his part versus him trying to put parents in jail. But I don't see how you can possibly say that if you are that incompetent at your job and being called repeatedly to court to put people away, that you have no intent at that

point. Like, I just, I don't think that was fair. And Canada thinks that we're great at all this stuff. And I actually think we're embarrassingly bad. And I crossed paths with James Lockyer, who was now in charge of Innocence Canada. Yeah. He worked with my brother for years. He's amazing. James is, I don't know what we'll do without James. I mean, he's semi-retired, but

And this is why it's so important to be doing this story because we did grow up with these stories. I was at a Innocence Canada project meeting and I was young in my career. This is what inspired me to

big justice stories. And I, David Milgard was there, Stephen Truscott was there, you know, Guy Paul Moran was there. Like, I mean, it was haunting to see the thousand mile stare in these men's eyes after what they'd been through. And, you know, and so knowing those stories makes us vigilant

about facts and vigilant about are we sure because the stakes are so high. And it also makes us careful about what police and what prosecutors are saying and what information the state is putting forward. They have all the power.

All we have is innocent until proven guilty. That's it. And when I say we, it's because this could happen to any of us, right? That's the one thing I learned. And you're right. Parents lost their children. Parents who were grieving their children were imprisoned. And then they're convicted of murdering them.

It is a, it is fucking horrible. It is. And many of them are actually, there's thousands we don't even know of that plead guilty because, and I know when I was at the Fifth Estate, we did a story tapping into this, an award-winning piece, and we looked at the idea of the power of the state and what information's put forward. And a lot of people just say, listen, I'm not going to go up against anybody.

the medical examiner who says this is what happened and proves a pattern of abuse. And in fact, there's no evidence, you know, there's or it's questionable. And if it's questionable, it's reasonable doubt. Back to like what Jan was asking about, like how you stumbled upon this man. We need to know that connection. Yeah. And then also the immediacy of how this man can have the electric chair if this goes wrong.

Absolutely. So when in 2016, I started this documentary, "Met While Incarcerated,"

A documentary about three powerful, intelligent and successful women who met and married a man who was in prison for violent crime. And I really committed early on that I was going to tell a love story and that it was not going to be me trying to argue the average person into seeing, you know, the value in these relationships.

the idea of forgiveness, redemption, the idea of rehabilitation, that people change, you know, all of the things that we know, but fail to recognize when we get into this us versus them world of incarceration. And so I made that film. And one of the people, the couples was a middle school teacher from Louisiana, watched Dead Man Walking. And she reached out to a man on death row and wrote him a letter out of kindness and said, you know,

I'm thinking about you like you're not worthless. You're not a monster. And he wrote back and they developed a relationship and they've been together ever since. And so I developed a relationship with him. And so I have these death row connections now in Louisiana. And so I have very unique and privileged access to people who at this moment are terrified because there's 57 people on death row in Louisiana.

There's been a moratorium on executions there for almost 20 years because they're terrible at it. Louisiana is terrible at justice. They had so many death row convictions overturned and exonerations that they got put on hold. So they're quite frightened of the fact that the men that they are holding are

could very well not be responsible for the crimes that they're accused of. No, they didn't. They got told. They got told. So one of the issues is, is that no one will give them the chemicals for lethal injection anymore.

And the other issue is, is that really the federal government oversees executions at the state level. They have an oversight. And so they've been put on hold until they could figure out some of their issues with how they were going to perform executions. And frankly, the Louisiana public is really on the fence. Like they almost abolished the death penalty a year ago.

And so they're very Catholic and there's a Catholic side to them that says, you know, that they don't believe in the death penalty. There's a part of that, their history, but they're on the fence and they know they're bad at it. They're not great at justice. There's so much corruption in Louisiana. And so but what happened is, is in January, there's a new governor in town.

And Governor Jeff Landry was elected. He came in on a tough on crime.

panic platform, terrifying everyone about the crime situation where crime is actually down in Louisiana as it is everywhere. And he came in on this platform that said he was going to execute everyone on death row within the next four years. And he promised that he would use any means necessary. He offered up the electric chair, which hasn't been used since the 80s. Oh!

He offered up this new nitrous gas, which is so controversial and really torture. He offered up even hanging was on the table, going back to lynching people and firing squad is also an option. I would pick that. Sorry. There's no way. I mean, listen, there's no end to

you know, the problems in a very broken system. Yeah. And obviously, the United States is dealing with hundreds of millions more people than we as far as the general population. But I applaud you for taking this on. I wish we could talk to you for 14 hours.

I really look forward to your podcast being on the Women in Media Network. I think people are going to find it fascinating. What is the name of your podcast, Catherine Legge? Because I'm doing a documentary and a podcast, The Murder That Never Happened, because I want people to remember this is not a murder mystery. It's a justice gone wrong story. And we're hoping it comes out in August, but I hope to come back and update your listeners and bring them in the tent as we have planned.

more unfolding. Well, that'll be so great. And please let us know how it goes. You are welcome on the Jan Arden podcast anytime, Catherine Legge. Congratulations. It's a difficult slog to do this and it's upsetting. And whenever you do any kind of advocacy work, it steals your sleep. So people need to understand, you know, this isn't just a job. This is something that creators are very passionate about. And I don't think you would do this without

you know, really having your heart and soul into it. So make sure you look after yourself, Catherine. Thank you. She's going to be in Louisiana as it happens in September. Let us know how it goes. But yeah, that's been our guest today, Catherine Legg. Please watch for The Murder That Never Happened. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you.

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A cola or a cream soda, root beer, yes indeedy. And they've got their limited edition summer flavor, which will take you right back to the second grade. You gotta try the ice pop one. Head to janardenpod.com to find out where the closest place to you is where you can go and buy Cove. Go right now.

Caitlin, what's going on with our... We've had some callers. We actually had some freaking voicemails. Voice notes. Jesus. And I never get that right. Voice notes. So our summer playlist...

is officially there for you in the show notes today and we have to say some thank yous i'm going to start with this one from prince of rhode island there is a woman named joanne who wants to add irish mythen to the playlist my my my thin oh my thin i've already butchered this one well who would know as a 50 pe islander care of my dad i wanted to start with that but uh dancing in the dark hell yeah carol i love dancing in the dark love bruce springsteen um it's

sly and the family stone hot fun in the summertime oh yeah yeah that came from denise oh thank you denise uh laurie lynn from kinkson who loves atlanta miles bad english and brian adams i mean those are great these are great places to start i feel like we're gonna have a lot of stuff is atlanta miles summertime but i i'm i am not summertime so anyone who has even mentioned me and somebody did in their voice note yeah oh and you're on that list jan um no i can't

possibly be summertime. And I'm sorry, if you are the type of person that has me on your summertime playlist, I apologize because you are not doing great in life. What season do you see yourself as then? I am just between...

the 12th of January and probably the 1st of March. What season is that? I think you're autumnal. I think you're more of an autumn vibe. Oh, God. Well, you're like a Q1 or Q2. But we will play a couple of voice notes here. Hi, Jan. It's Joanne McDonald calling and I'm calling from St. John, New Brunswick.

And I just listened to your interview with Meredith Shaw. I just love her. Wow. She's terrific. And I'm getting to know her more and more each morning that I see her on breakfast television.

But for your summer playlist, of course you're on it. Hi, Jan and Caitlin and Sarah. This is Maureen Lynn. I live just north of Kingston on Desert Lake. I would like to make a request for several songs, one including Atlanta Miles and Sunny Say You Will.

And I also had anything that is from bad English. Anyway, I love you guys. And I think you're wonderful. And I'm looking forward to hearing you while I'm on my walks at lunchtime from work and going to the beach during the summer. Love you guys. Hope everything's good. And we'll talk to you soon. Bye. Hi, my name is Jackie. I'm from Memram Cook, New Brunswick.

Followed Jan Arden for many, many years, I think pretty much since you started. Seen you in concert every time you come to the Moncton area. Love every bit of it. Now listen to your podcast, Faithfully. I enjoy it. I just wanted to shout out Wonderbra. Because of you, I did order some and tried them.

And it's changing my life. So thank you. Keep up the good work. And who did add Jan to the playlist? Was it you, Caitlin, or was it you, Jan? I might have added something. I might get in there and add one of my own. I'm trying to. I do have a couple of peppy songs. Okay, listen, I got to go. Okay. I'm a very, very busy woman. Thank you for...

you're on the ground reporting and Celine cannot wait to see that June 25th Amazon. But like Caitlin said, if it's in a theater near you run, don't walk, go see it this weekend. Um, Sarah Burke, as always, thank you. And to all our listeners subscribe, thank you for making us the success story that we are. We love you. Uh, we love you. We really do. And we, and I, we get so many nice comments and so many people coming up to me and, uh,

I could tell you more. Anyway, I got to go. We'll see you next time. Totally do. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.