The Tortured Poets Podcast Department
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Hello and welcome to the Jan Arden podcast and show. It is Passover and I'm here with Caitlin Green. I'm here with Sarah Burke. Sarah Burke's at her parents' home. Hello. Caitlin is in her home. She's freshly showered. Any of you guys that are watching us on YouTube today, we all look fresh. I've been doing a show for National Geographic narrating the secrets of the whales with a live symphony orchestra.

So I had two shows yesterday, sort of like Broadway. You know, you do an afternoon show. This one, however, was in the morning for 1,700 children that were probably from five to nine years old. I've never seen more squirmy...

kids in my life. There was lots of chaperones. There was lots of kids trailing off to the bathroom with their teacher's aides and their teachers. It was a nonstop cavalcade of commentary. I was worried because there's at one point, there's sperm whales.

And I have to say sperm whales. And it's like saying fart in front of children. If you say something that triggers a child. So when I said sperm whales, there was giant giggles. And then of course, I'm like, oh my God, as I'm doing this narration, I'm like, oh no, there's a scene coming up here. It's about mating. It's pretty benign. It's nothing verbally descriptive, but the sperm whale is

is you know this new guy on the block and he's trying to show off for the ladies and his penis is out and it's giant and i'm thinking god maybe they won't notice the penis maybe they won't notice the penis absolutely not the front three rows i can hear their comments these kids are like loving us i got it's huge and then i could hear lots of shushing by the teacher's age shh

So we did that show, but I just thought at least I've got people in front of me that are really responsive. And there was like a few sad tears because there's a dead baby whale that the mother... Oh my God. The mother orca kind of pushes this baby around for weeks. Yeah.

It's a phenomenon unique to some forms of marine life. So anyway, that was kind of sad. Anyhow. Wait, so hold on one second. I have a question, though. You're narrating this. What does this look like? I feel confused. So it's a symphony and also a movie? So the movie is playing. It's a National Geographic. They've followed these whales for five years. It's these really talented biologists and scientists, and they're talking about...

culture and community and the emotional family lives of all these different whales from all over the world it's fascinating beautifully shot and then there's a 45 piece orchestra on the stage with the conductor from San Bernardino maestro Anthony he's wonderful and then I'm sitting next to Anthony and I've got a screen in front of me and it's like glorified karaoke but it's very specific National Geographic wants this very consistent no matter where this show plays so

Anyone that's ever done voiceover work for actors and stuff like that, you get a blue swipe that goes across the screen for timing. I also have a countdown clock going nine, eight, seven, which tells me when to start the next line. And there are 145 cues.

So I'm never stopping. I'm always interjecting as the orchestra's going behind me. And then the words like karaoke light up and I have to match the gate of that because it has to match the screen and it has to match the orchestration. So I'm literally have sweat pouring down my back, hanging, hanging onto the stand for dear life and,

thinking, when can I take a sip of tea? I've screwed up a couple of lines the last few days, and I'm just like, I don't even know what the hell I just said. Well, it's a lot of words and a lot of things to say. I'm loving it, and I'm learning a new skill. And I have one more show left tonight, but it's been sold out. I think it's wonderful. It's a wonderful concept. And if you love music and if you love...

the movies and if you love like this interactive thing, the kids really enjoyed it. Like at the end, I said, did you have fun? They just went wild. So anyway, thank you for asking. They're great at doing really cool build out events because we think of National Geographic as

initially as this really amazing print organization and then digital content online, but they do so many incredible events and travel tours. Unbelievable once in a lifetime bucket list travel tour. So I feel like they've leaned into the experiences that are adjacent to their business and the work that they do. And it really,

really works for them. There's one National Geographic hosted event that happens in the eastern townships of Quebec that my husband and I frequently travel to that part of Canada. And we keep meaning to go to. And it's in the woods, kind of on the side of a mountain because it's like a mountain-y sort of ski-prone region of Quebec.

and they almost have an outdoor sort of planetarium happen with seating, and you get a little headset, and they have a National Geographic guide that's at the front, and they guide you through the stars at night. Oh, man. And I just was thinking to myself, this is such a cool way to kind of connect with nature and build out a plan around that, just like the symphony, because you think, okay, well, a movie about whales, that's great, but then have someone narrate it, and then do it live with a symphony? Yeah.

What the? You know, when you're talking about the future of animals on this planet and how we connect, especially young people with nature, like fuck you, sea world and fuck you, marine land and all you assholes that are

kidnapping and splitting up families. Now we know whale families are dependent. They could be stealing someone that is the teacher. The bullshit that they put these animals through, it's wrong, it's antiquated, and it needs to end. We will leave it at that because we have a lot to talk about today. I also just want to add in that I really hate Marineland and I can go on record as saying I've always hated them because I was taken there as a child. And my dad said he remembers me looking at him and I said, you know, all these animals seem really sad.

Well, yeah, it's inexcusable. And he's like, we drove all the way here. And I was like, yeah, no, I don't really like it. I think this is kind of a bummer. And I was right. The sad fin on the whale, it's because it's sad. It's like this stinky little dirty pool that it's living in. Yeah, that's hell. That's truly hell. So it should be closed. It should have been closed a long time ago and I hate them. If you are supporting animal tourism, stop taking your children. I don't care. And yeah, if I sound like I'm being preachy, I sure as hell am.

And they might feel like me deep inside, but not be saying it. Like children are quite perceptive. So just, you know. They're trying to please their parents and act like it's all cool, but it's not cool. But this is an experience that's so beautiful, so interactive. Kids get music, which is fantastic.

good for their happiness, their socializing, their depression, your anxiety. Music is magical. And then to be inspired. And a lot of these stories are so uplifting. It's about reconnecting. It's about finding your last little baby whale. Yeah, there's some sad things, but you all, kids need to understand that. It's so weird. And I'll just end with this. So this is how our convenient...

invisible thinking works in our minds. That doesn't make sense to you right now, but it will. So I did this VIP little speech after one of the shows the other day, and it was all the donors and stuff like that. And they had all these hors d'oeuvres and they had champagne and bubbly and their hors d'oeuvres were fucking fish of some kind and a shrimp and a, you know, and I said to them, I said, when I was talking about animal advocacy, I said, we have convenient lives. And I said, I'll give you an example.

You know, you guys were all kind of, I heard these big sighs when the mother whale was pushing this dead baby along. And I could hear the air coming out of their lungs and like, oh, it's a sad part. I said, the snacks that you just ate, the things that you put in your mouths, which is so crazy to me.

You don't think about what happened to that mother, to that baby, to that animal, the life that they led, gestation crates, walking around in shit up to their elbows in a lineup getting slaughtered.

If we keep food invisible for our children, nothing is ever going to change. And they actually, I thought they might, you know, leave the room. And I said, I'm not trying to shame you. I'm trying to make you understand the invisible nature of our food system. You know, here was one of the statistics, a thousand air breathing creatures. Yeah. Like marine mammals. Yeah. 1000 animals are killed a day from fishing gear.

Yeah, all the big giant nets, like the mass, the huge ones. But it's small things too. It's plastics. It's everything. 1,000 animals a day. And that's on the low side. The ocean is just so unexplored. It's like, to me, I think that they say that relative to size, like the ocean is less explored than space even.

I feel like I had read some sort of a statistic about that at some point. And it just seems like there could be so many amazing things down there that we don't even know about. And so we also then would not know about our negative impact on them because I'm like, I don't even think we know that they're all down there. Have you heard about the assholes that are trying to drill a hole through the earth? They're trying to make the longest drill in the world to...

You know, yeah. I've been hiding in my land of Bravo because all of this news freaks me out. And then every once in a while it like makes its way into my algorithm, like a flame throwing robot dog made its way into my algorithm today on X. And I just thought to myself, you know, we could stop inventing horrifying things that will eventually kill us all. That'd be crazy.

just super for me. Yeah. Well, especially as a mom, you know, as a mom, you know, you're thinking about Will and what life looks like him when he's 20, when he's 50, when he's 90. And I really, I feel for you. Anyway, there's lots of hopefulness, but I also feel compelled to say these things to groups of people. They want, they're paying to have me standing in front of them. And someone asked me about the horse shit.

campaign. And I launched into that and, and I had all these people sitting in front of me that absolutely had no idea that it was going on. But anyway, we're getting somewhere. We do end up living in a little bit of a silo of information, like based on like what you follow and then what you're sort of served. So yeah, we here at the Jan Arden podcast like to sandwich in the informative and sometimes dark with also the fun and lighthearted and perhaps less informative world of entertainment.

We do have a guest coming on at the latter part of the show, but like we promised, we wanted to address the maid medical assistance in dying. The other side of the coin, and Mitchell is our guest today, and he does a lot of advocacy. He's had lots of mental health issues in his life, and he gives us just a little glimpse of what's going on in that world. And so I'm looking forward to that and really grateful that Mitchell is joining us today. Bye.

But as we move on, we don't want to be all gloom and doom. Taylor Swift had a new record coming out. And I think we're the only show talking about it. We're the only show talking about it. There's nobody else. No one's talking about it. 31 songs. 31 songs. I was admonished a few years ago. I put out a record that had 15 songs. Descendant had 15 songs in my record. Company went crazy. I'm not Taylor Swift, but 31 songs. I listened to it yesterday. Mm-hmm.

uh, driving around in my car and there's a lot to digest. And there's, there's a lot of people that she's apparently singing about. People are, are dissecting every word that she says. Kim Kardashian. Is Kim in there? Kim and Kanye. Yeah. Well, just Kim actually specifically in this one. Yeah. Anyway, it's, it's a really beautiful record. And, uh,

I know her fans are going to absolutely adore it and pick it apart and find their anthems. But comments, Caitlin, please. I've listened to it because of mostly my interest in pop culture in general. So I just like knowing what everyone else is talking about and is into less than I myself.

personally would attend like a Taylor Swift concert. Although I would, I actually think she'd put on a great show. I watch the movie. You know, it's pop culture history. I like music and I like entertainment. So like I'm into it from like that. Like I'm like, Oh, I'm a historian here, but I think that it is predominantly a heartbreak album. I mean, she does this cool thing where it's like an Amazon music guided tour through the album and through her thought process and her writing and

And I am a sucker for lyrics. Some people don't care about lyrics and songs. They don't listen to them. They're like, is it catchy? I don't care what's anyone saying. I immediately go to like lyrics genius and like look up all the different meanings and any interviews. I want to know what people were thinking when they wrote stuff. And I really appreciated that she described this as kind of being a solemn, like,

pining, longing feeling that can be associated with breakups, relationships of any kind. Also just longing for a time and a place in your life that is sort of escaping you. But I have to say that my favorite song on the album from a lyrical perspective after hearing her speak about it was the song Florida. Because I think we know there's a lot of

about Florida that make their way into the news. You know, Florida man being a figure that we hear about all the time because of all the unhinged people who live in Florida and the things they do that make headlines. But she talked about that people sort of, in her mind, she watches Dateline all the time. And she said that people have these crimes that they commit where they immediately skip town. And where do they go? To Florida. Yeah.

They try to reinvent themselves, have a new identity, blend in. And she said, when you go through a heartbreak, there's a part of you that thinks, I want a new name. I want a new life. I don't want anyone to know where I've been or who I am at all. And so where would you go to reinvent yourself? Florida.

And it's with Florence Welch. I appreciate it. There were a bunch of articles where it was like, who is Florence Welch? You can be here on heard on the new. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm old. I'm old now because kids today. It's like when I was a girl, there was Florence in the machine. Like now they don't know. But it changes so quickly. This is this is literally year to year in music now because things don't hold up.

there's lots of 90 second wonders and things that don't hit, but we've talked about that before about making legacy artists. But anyways, go ahead. I think it's good. It's, it's, it's heartbreaking. It's, it's her stories. It's also just general stories of heartbreak. Uh, I think a lot of people anticipated that when she announced this project, she was going to be the scathing takedown of her ex Joe Alwyn, who she was together with for six years. Some felt maybe they were secretly engaged, uh,

But it doesn't seem that way. I think she has more of a sense of humor than people give her credit for. I think that they like to paint her as this, you know, brokenhearted, very serious serial dater. And I don't think it's that. I think she is lighter than she lets on, especially with her songwriting. And she talks about the value and how she approaches songwriting of, I get it all out of my songs, I talk about it, and then I sort of move on. And because you're a songwriter, Jan, I was, you know, listening to her talk about this on this Amazon Music thing and then reading interviews. And I was like,

Like, do most artists write from experience? And then how do you approach the thought of writing about people who exist in your real life in your songs? Exes, whoever. Well, I definitely write about things that have happened to me or things that I'm going through. Or, you know, when I was younger, it was definitely more like Taylor. Like at her age, it was very much about, it was very relationship driven and very much about who did me wrong and very much about pining, yearning, wanting, unrequited love.

you know, it was all those things. And you hear that it's a time in her life. I mean, she will change that too. If you listen to Leonard Cohen stuff through a timeline of his writing, you see very much that happening. And then how he switched gears into more universal themes and more, you know, a more political landscape and, you know, seething commentaries on how we treat each other. You know, first we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin. I mean, when you,

look at you know his songwriting you see the growth in a human being so she's in her early 30s and it's going to change a lot and plus she's riding a wave in this uncharted territory we've never seen anything like this she's in a tsunami every day of her life i would never want that ever

I never wanted, but I don't think she aspired to that either. I don't think I've ever heard her talking about, I wanted to be famous. I wanted to do this. She wanted to play music. She wanted to write music and be a musician. And then this thing happened. She did want to prove some people wrong. Yeah, and I think most artists do want to prove people wrong. This is not indigenous to Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is not, she's not the only person. There are tens of hundreds of thousands of artists out there that want to...

have their work acknowledged. They want to be seen. They want to make a living. You know, they say that most musicians, 95% of them will never really have a public forum. You know, when you think back in history of someone like Vincent Van Gogh, who painted over his paintings and

Because he couldn't afford canvas. He painted on wood. He painted on anything he could get his hands on. And he was very unwell because of the poverty that he kind of self-inflicted on himself. So, you know, artists, I wish there was a kind of focus that was distributed a little more evenly over, you know, a lot of other people that are really fighting hard. But yeah, writing is a

is a really magical thing. I don't know how it works. I don't read music. I don't have any technical academic sense of what the sticks and the dots look like on a page. I just write about things that seem important to me at the time. Have you ever written about like an X and then the X is like, I heard that song. Absolutely. I know this is about. Absolutely. I wrote a song called All the Little Things eight, nine years ago.

And it's very specific. All the little things you did to us, all the promises, you know, but, but I talked about like a giant rosary, like,

This rosary is like 10 feet in length. It's huge wooden beads and a huge cross that was given to me. And I wrote about something very specific. And there was another thing. She sent me a rubber glove filled with candy hearts. Well, of course, I wrote about a rubber glove filled with candy hearts. Did you warn her before writing? No, no, I don't speak at all. But I heard through the grapevine that she told me to fuck off. You passed this along to Jan. Yeah, she said that I was a fucking asshole. Oh, that's...

I mean, that's the thing when you get involved with an artist. Like I have a friend who's a writer and they'll put personal dramas or dramas even of friends and family that they come to know about into their writing. And I don't know that they consciously do it, but it just works its way in there. And so sometimes...

you know, you'd see something they'd done and think to yourself, well, it's kind of seems like it's like about this person. And I just, I always wonder how the people, the real people feel. So Taylor writes a lot about this guy. Who's the front man of the band called the 1975 named Matt Healy.

What did Matt do? What did he do? Well, and it's this flash in the pan romance that was not, I mean, it was sandwiched between Travis Kelsey and Joe Alwyn. And those are always the most volatile, right? Those are the most like you throw your whole self into those stop gap relationships. And it sounds like she got a thrill out of dating someone who her fans and the media were not a huge fan of because he's kind of like a provocateur in terms of the quotes he gives and things he says on stage. Yeah.

Anyways, I was just that was the surprise where people were like, what? Will you have this many songs about this guy? Like we barely he came and went. But then his family spoke out about it because being in the zeitgeist of Taylor Swift means that you're swept up in the current that she operates within. And so his family gave quotes trying to say, oh, we were actually really happy.

with how Matt seemed to ha ha ha ha and he's happy in his new relationship and because they just don't want to incur the wrath of the rabid fan base that she has. Well, wasn't Travis Kelsey's ex-girlfriend saying things on Twitter the other day going, look, people move on. Yeah. She's literally went out with him for several years and she's this beautiful woman. And anyway, that the Swifties just were in there.

Just ripping her apart. Like, I'll tell you, I'm very worried about saying anything disparaging or the least bit. Like, even what I've said about the women in particular that are out there making amazing music. She acknowledges that too, you know, which is so funny because then as a result, like how some of her more unhinged fans behave, right?

like contradicts the very thing that she would not like to have happen because she also talked about the song on her album called Clara Bow. And she said, I used to sit in record labels trying to get a record deal when I was younger. And they'd say, you know, you remind us of insert name of other female pop star here. And then they'd say something disparaging about them. So that, but you're this, you're so much better than this. And she said, that's how we teach women to see themselves as, you know, you could be the new replacement for this woman who's done something great before you.

So she said she chose to talk in the song about women who've done great things in the past and have been these archetypes of greatness in the entertainment industry. And she said, you know, Claire Bow was this first it girl. Stevie Nicks was this, you know, kind of amazing icon example for women in music. And so,

But then you think about how they will comfort Travis Kelsey's ex or, you know, they get involved in her alleged beefs with other famous women or the falling out of her friendship. And you're like, I don't know that she wants you to do this, though. I think with Kim, I saw something this morning that was like Kim lost like 100,000 Instagram followers or something. Doesn't she have 78 million or something? So the story is just in case, like, you know, this is unfamiliar to anyone listening. It is to me.

Okay, okay. So, and Caitlin, you can help me out here, but there's a video about permission for Kanye to say something about Taylor from years ago that like Kim fabricated. And then there's basically a song directed at Kim that says, me and your daughter are the only person that knows this song is about you. It's like a nice little statement. Because Northwest, Kim and Kanye's daughter, is famously a fan of Taylor Swift. So Taylor's kind of reaching through the, you know, speakers and...

And is saying, yeah, your daughter's a fan of me and this song's about you being not so great to me. And I mean, look, there's lots of things you can love or not love about the Kardashian family, but I do feel like one of the lesser interesting things about them is the beef with Taylor because everyone comes for Taylor. She's like the Drake of pop music. Everyone.

Everyone wants to pull down what rises high. Tall poppy syndrome. Anyway, I'm curious to know what you guys think of what Taylor's life will look like in 20 years. What will the landscape be of her legacy? What will her career be doing? I have lied in bed and thought about, I hope I live long enough to see Taylor.

this lands and how she deals with it or if she's on a talk show 15 years from now going, oh my gosh, well, yeah, there was a time when, you know, we did stadiums with 90,000 people and, and

And now she can't sell, you know, a pair of her old socks. No, but I'm just wondering what happens because I'll tell you this right now. When you look at, you know, ABBA, when you look at Blondie, when you look at the Beatles, the Beatles used to play in stadiums with 90,000 people. They didn't have the gear to even accommodate. People couldn't hear them over the screaming.

And obviously it leveled off. The band broke up and they think back upon those times and it's much different now for them in their seventies and eighties. So like David Cassidy, who was on the Partridge family was a phenomenon. He couldn't like in Japan, South America, there was hundreds of thousands of people. And I'm not exaggerating in parks around hotel rooms. He couldn't move. And then we see a fellow singer,

30 years forward, who is, can't fill a nightclub because the fans have aged out as well. So what,

What do you think? She feels to me now like, you know, it could be I look to, you know, contemporaries in the sense of a singular, like a diva. Like, you know, what happens to someone like Celine Dion? You know, where do they wind up? And could that be the case for Taylor? You know, will she be interested in something like a Vegas residency? Yeah.

Perhaps will she be like an Elton John where, you know, she has 300 farewell tours, but that they're all quite, you know, like they're, they're successful. We know what, what's she going to do? What younger art is she going to still work with younger artists? You know, how Madonna never really reached across the aisle and said, yeah, I'll work with Lady Gaga. There's all these comparisons and she's a big deal. Like that didn't really happen. But Elton John's like, yeah, no, I want to work with Dua Lipa. I want to reach out to Ed Sheeran.

So will she do that? I don't know. I see her as a very, very smart businesswoman and not necessarily someone who is going to avoid the limelight, but who would want the limelight to exist on her terms. So if she could make a tidy profit, stay true to herself, Vegas residency, I wouldn't rule something like that out. And also I could see her

regularly working with younger artists who were up and coming that she went into the studio with and you see her pop up on a song and everyone gets a thrill out of it. Like I could, I could see that path forward for her. For sure. Yeah. You know what I could see? I could see her using a pseudonym to write. Yes. With all sorts of up and coming people that we wouldn't even find out for years. Yes. I would say that I've come into it

appreciating and respecting what she's done only in the last few years. Like when her album Folklore came out is when I was like, oh, she worked with Aaron Dessner from The National. I think like her constant reinvention of the way she writes, the way she sings, the vocal work she did, exploring other genres. Even on this new album, I heard a lot of like Kate Bush type sounds. Yes, yeah.

I heard Lana Del Rey. Yes. Yes. And the idea of what she did with like her music library, because she didn't like the sale that went on without her knowledge. Like all of that to me is iconic. Yeah. Oh, very much. She's transformed the way we think about what is possible in this industry and getting back to your Vegas residency, Caitlin, um,

I really see them building a 30,000 seat stadium there. That's a standalone. They have the room they're in the goddamn desert. And I think if she chooses to not do that grueling around the world and maybe wants to have a child, well,

Well, I don't even think that's big enough for her, but something, something literally that can accommodate, imagine 30,000 people coming in for two shows a week into Vegas. I mean, they have 300,000 people probably coming in there and in a, in the course of a week anyway, but it would be,

an economy in and of itself to have her do that and to stay there, like to, to live in New York and just to fly in, you know, for a couple of shows. And anyway, I really see that happening. So that's, that's good. Yeah. She puts on a great, she puts on a great show again. I haven't seen it, but I've watched her heiress tour movie and I've seen enough footage of her shows online and just thought, you know, this, that would be, she, she puts effort in, she's like really put in the work and,

And everyone loves an artist that reinvents themselves with each album and loves a theme. I mean, Beyonce does it. So every artist has done this. So yeah, I'm into it. I don't know that the album style-wise is like a repeat play alone for me, but I'm not like that anyway. It's like, I don't listen to a ton of Taylor Swift in my spare time. I have my favorite songs and then that's about it. It's going to be really interesting to see it all unfold. And at the end of the day, Chris and I talk about this, my road manager, Chris, the joy of,

Yes. That this person spreads across this planet in music in general, Beyonce, Radiohead, Kiss, the joy that music spreads because normally when people gather around

in these modern times, it is to protest. It is to put fist in the air. It is to stop war. It is to rage against the machinery of rogue governments. And I mean, when we see what's happening and then music drops itself like a care package in a parachute in the middle of this dissolution and it just lights up, people light up and they leave after three hours of listening to something. And I'm very proud to be part of an industry, to be a group

of artists and thinkers and doers that are somehow maintaining the status quo and the balance of this planet tipping off into oblivion. There is art at the end of the day. And having said that, a new season of Hacks is coming. You like it? Are you a Hacks fan? I'm in love with every character. I want to lay on top of them and move around. I love Jean Smart. I just...

I mean, to see a 72-year-old woman walk into a sexually charged role and a funny role in this

powerhouse. It is so refreshing to see an ingenue that's 72 years old. I know. She's fabulous. And I also find that this in a world and an entertainment industry that kind of regurgitates the same content over and over again, whether that's through sequels or prequels or whatever, this feels fresh. This feels exciting. It's why I think I liked succession so much. I think it's what HBO does so well. And it's funny. And it's a little 30 minute, uh,

piece of comedy, but also they touch on real things too. The writing. The writing is fantastic.

And, yeah, I mean, Jean Smart and then I forget the name, Hannah. Hannah. I forget her last name, who plays Ava in the show. She's so good. The whole cast. Yeah, and just, again, well cast. Casting this year, next year coming up at the Academy Awards is going to be its own award, and I've said that it should be for so long. Casting should be its own category at the Emmys and at the Academy Awards because it's really important, and they freaking nail it for hacks. So it's coming up May 2nd, and if you aren't watching it,

Oh man, get to watching. Who plays the nutty secretary?

That wonderful... Oh, I love her. Megan Stalter. Megan Stalter is so hilarious. She's out doing stand-up. And I know that you really enjoy stand-up, Caitlin, going and seeing live comics and do their thing. But yeah, she, Meg, she's out there. She does shows. She sells out in New York, all these really cool clubs. And she does that really zany take on woman who tries to bring chihuahua into restaurant. Like, she takes on these... She just takes on characters and...

and she's talking to an invisible person off camera, like her husband or what. It is so funny. I follow her too, and I just get such a kick out of her. And her body positivity. Yes. You know, she's a plus-size girl, and she makes you feel like...

Honey, you ain't ever going to chance to touch this. She's yeah. Her handle is Meg Stalter and she's so she's just funny and inventive. And it's like all these great characters and like Caitlin Olsen's on it. And I'm a huge Always Sunny fan. And I think she plays Jean Smart's daughter on the show. And she's so, so excellent at it. And also shoot him a Gavin.

You know, Jean Smart's sort of on and off love interest. I know from Happy Gilmore, Christopher McDonald. And so he plays he's just yeah. Casting perfection. Hilarious. Only 30 minutes. I ever increasingly appreciate a 30. I've rewatched the whole thing. Yeah, I'm going to watch it again before the Mesa. Yeah, I rewatched the whole thing and I was equally as enchanted and realized that I'd missed things. The Maple Leafs, the Toronto Maple Leafs are in the playoffs.

Calgary never makes it. I hope they still are by the time this episode. Me and your husband need to hang out. If you don't mind, I will relieve you of Kyle. Just send him over and we will cry together. The Leafs are cursed in the playoffs. They're really cursed against Boston. I hate when we play Boston.

Uh, so anyways, I've absorbed an inordinate amount of stress because my husband has Leafs disorder where every year he gets his hopes up and becomes deranged level, sad, happy. It's all the emotions at every possible intensity level for the duration of the playoffs until they are inevitably in the past. I don't want to say forever, but until they have been ejected from the playoffs.

So, Sarah, do you have this? Yes. There's always a little bit of the mental health problems at this time of the year. I keep my psychotherapist on standby for when things get hard. But I feel like me and my dad have like a really realistic look at things where, you know, on Saturday night, he's like, oh, I better put this on. Although last night during the Passover Seder dinner, it was nice to run back and forth and check the scores.

It does break that up. And we won last night. Well, I'm cheering for the Oilers because they're in Alberta. So I'll do that until I can't do it anymore. And then I'm going to swap over to Toronto. But whatever happens. And I am not a sports person. I think I like it.

In theory, I think it's fun to go see it in person. I never really know what's going on, but I'm not a sports person. I'm from Toronto, so I really feel like I had no choice. I had to be a Leafs fan. It's like you're born into it, tragic as it sometimes may be.

But, yeah, I went to a game this year and it was really fun. I went to an excellent game. Austin Matthews scored a hat trick. He is really a generational talent. He's fantastic and he's a lot of fun to watch. No clue who that is. He got his 70th goal last night. He did. Yes. I'm now losing control of the show. Sorry. I have no idea who these women are. Oh, wait. Do you want to hear something fun? Because he plays for the Edmonton Oilers. I think he does. Oh, I hope he does.

Zach Hyman. Did he move to the Edmonton Oilers? Edmonton Oilers. Yes. Haha. I know a thing. Okay. So, uh, Zach Hyman, who used to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs and was a very beloved player here moves over to the Oilers and guess who was in the suite next to me? Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift. Right after my son was born. Yeah.

His son and him were right next to our little suite. And we only knew that because we were doing the hallway walk with the baby up and down and kind of shuffling around, mixing it up. And my husband, the, you know, rabid Leafs fan, was just looking around and the door was open and he was like, I think that's Zach Harmon. I was like, I have no idea who that is, what he's talking about. And then he got very excited. So. Oh, that's a, that's a nice little thing. I mean, I. It's cute.

I know a lot of you listeners have, we've lost you now. We've lost you, but we're going to follow along. We will follow along. And I, and I think it's always great for a community. Like I said, hard times. It's great for people to gather, enjoy. Even if there's some disappointment, somebody's got to lose, right? Somebody's got to lose. And if I call in sick to the podcast next week, you know exactly what's going on. And you know what? I can do the whole show by myself. I'm going to just get Meg Statler or Jean Smart and,

Okay. I know how to get out of this hockey conversation. We're going to take a quick break and we're going to talk about something really important. Mitchell Tremblay is coming up in the last segment of the show, and we're going to be addressing some of the made misconceptions that I certainly had. Don't go away. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast and show. I'm here with Caitlin and Sarah Mitchell Tremblay is up next.

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Welcome back to the Jan Arden podcast and show. Of course, I'm here with Caitlin Green and Sarah Burke and a very, very special guest today. We're here with Mitchell Tremblay, an advocate who's fighting for a better future for all Canadians with disabilities. Mitchell, thank you for joining us. And I want to just ask how you're doing today. Thank you so much for having me. I know, you know, time is short. Today, I'm still kind of reeling from the budget from the upset on the

Canada Disability Benefit. I'm pretty sure my entire community is just judging by the pulse on Twitter, but pushing through it and just trying to keep that awareness train going. Yeah. Last week, the federal government announced the new disability benefit and the reaction really falls short, doesn't it, Mitchell? I mean,

very short. Can you reflect on how you felt hearing or reading about it? Because it was a much anticipated, supposed to be this big thing from the federal government to finally end the disparity between the poverty line and people with disabilities in this country. Yeah. And it turned out to be an absolute failure. And they've had a lot of time to work on it. This benefit was first conceived 10 years ago, and then the last election killed it in its previous bill form before it could become law.

And so just last year, finally, it became law, the actual act itself, and went through the Senate. And we were watching on Twitter. We were having little watch parties during the Huma Committee and all that. And we were sending in letters and we were pushing for certain things. One of the things that definitely failed was having the disability tax credit

as a qualifier for people. This goes contrary to the Accessible Canada Act, which is trying to break down Canada's barriers for people with disabilities by 2040. And it

it really upset a lot of us because this isn't going to reach the people it needs to. If you think about people who are homeless, like I have been seven times, we aren't signed up for the disability tax credit. We can't even get doctors right now to be able to fill out these forms. And so when they rolled that out and they said they were going to give 243 million just to the doctors and the clerks and the forms, and then 41 million going onwards. And then for us,

$6.66 a day, which to me sounds like a deal with the devil. It's not even a cup of coffee. Listen, it's deplorable. And Caitlin and Sarah and I certainly are not the government of Canada. And I'm going to get to a question that the three of us have about how ordinary people can help. But first of all, I do want to address the thing that connected us, Mitchell, which was on Twitter. We did a

A brief story that I was quite naive about, about the MADE program, the Medical Assistance in Dying, that has been available all over the world, really, and in Canada these last several years. Anyway, we talked about a personal experience that I had had seeing my friends' in-laws, who were 92 and 93 respectively, choose to end their lives that way after a very nice long life, not dealing with mental illness, but having...

Just a lot of physical problems at 93. And they chose that. And of course, in my naivete, I'm like revering it and cheering it on. And we never represented the other side of this coin. So I really want to speak to that, Mitchell, of

of what it is about MADE that causes so much discomfort in the marginalized disabled community. And obviously I was quite blind to it. And I want to get your take on that. And please walk me through of why MADE is kind of a horror show for people that don't have any support out there.

Sure. Your story was one of the ones that falls under track one. And it's one that I completely understand. And I'm okay with me for track one for about 99% of the cases.

These are people who at their life's end, they have a foreseeable death or dementia or some of these issues. Terminal disease. When you get to track two, it's non-terminal anymore in track two. It's no foreseeable death. And so you can apply. And the most recent case was out of Quebec. It was the man with the bed sores who was left in the emergency room and

it brought him to a point where he would qualify for track two. And that's the most concerning part about track two. The government already delayed opening it up for solely mental illness, which was my qualifier, which I have had seven mental illnesses since I was 17 years old. And they've only worsened under things like malnutrition, homelessness, you know, this fight that we're doing, living, you know, sometimes 30% below the poverty line, sometimes more, depending on what your rent is.

And the thing that's really terrifying is that, you know, women are disproportionately affected. Men, 24% chance of getting disabled. Women, it's 30% of getting disabled. And the stories that I'm hearing, and I'm speaking from the privilege of being a white male,

But the stories that I hear, including covering on my podcast, are of women terrified of going to the streets, of sexual assault, of abuse, of halfway houses that turn people into being sex trafficked and all this. And they're going to choose maid instead of being homeless again, which is the same thing that I'm doing and what a lot of people are fearing. And there's so many other things that we're dealing with.

Children's Aid Services are taking away kids because the ODSP amounts are nowhere near or AISH or AAS or EII, depending on which province you're in.

And we're really surviving on one meal a day with our housing just in jeopardy. I was just homeless four years ago and almost was again last year with one of those illegal N12 evictions. And so when you think about all that stuff, and specifically in my case, the homelessness caused more mental illness. I've developed agoraphobia over the past seven times, fear of leaving my home.

fear of leaving my door unlocked, people going in my room, being homeless again. And with the agoraphobia, I don't know how I would survive this time. And a lot of us just don't see a future because we've lived like this for so long. And we're not just talking about people who were born with visible minority or visible disabilities.

We're talking about workplace accidents. We're talking about car accidents where it's no fault of their own and they're developing these issues and then they can't get the help that they need. Do you suffer? Do you starve? Or do you choose made? And I think that's,

The thing I was naive about is that you're saying that made for some people who are in these horrible positions feel like my better option, other than waiting for the government to step up and actually give me a life that is not below the poverty line, people are reluctantly being forced to choose the medical assistance in dying option.

rather than risking not having their rent, not having medical access, not having psychiatric care, not having the drugs that they can't afford. So it didn't even cross my mind, Mitchell. I'm so sorry.

It doesn't cross many minds. It's really hard for us to organize. It's really hard for us to protest. And I became obsessed with Maid in my last place when I was laying on a futon on a floor in a moldy room with a sick cat. And eventually he became so sick that, you know, I was doing GoFundMe. So I was trying to raise money, giving him medicine and

he just gave up and I had to put him down myself with ketamine and L-thean and an eyedropper. And he was so skinny. He hadn't eaten for days. I was spending all my own money on different types of cat food. And when that happened, it really snapped that I just killed my best friend out of poverty and that I was alone now. And so I threw myself into advocating and I've gone nonstop for two years, sometimes 10 hours a day, trying to bring that awareness that you just talked about was missing.

So, and we do need your advice here, Mitchell, because you've been on the front lines of this

you are in a community that once again has been let down by the federal government. I think a lot of us saw, oh, you know, billions of dollars are being allocated for disabilities in this country. And then when you actually do the math and look at the ridiculous fucking amount of money that is actually going to be in the hands of people that

you know, are relying on food banks and the help of friends and GoFundMes and all the ridiculous things that you're resorting to and having to think about getting medical assistance in dying because you simply cannot afford to live your lives. This has been a disappointment, but like I said, we're not the government, but how can Sarah and Caitlin and myself, what can we do

It's a really good question. And it really depends on your capabilities and the options that you have at your disposal. Right now, it's really listening.

I think the most important thing that Canada can do is listen to people with disabilities because you have not been listening for decades. And I've lived those decades and I've been on the wayside. I've been, you know, sidelined by society and I'm not the worst off there is. I'm someone who has just enough that I can do this burning the candle at both ends advocacy until I'm replaced. It's a cycle. I'm an elder in the community. I'm 42. We don't live long. So I'm,

This is how we're trying to reinvent advocacy. So to really listen to people, to look for those stories, to look for the articles and see both sides of the coin, because I totally was beautiful. That was how Made Track 1 should be. It's end of life. It's over. But right now,

With mental illness looming, the government had to postpone it three years to 2027. And what people are doing right now is they're removing their organ donors cards because this is the other disgusting thing is that we're just cattle to them now. We're too poor to live and someone out there is too rich to die. It just seems like a huge problem where we're being forced this way.

All of a sudden there's a whole bunch of new hearts and livers and all this, and we never had a chance. And so organizations like Dying With Dignity who are out there pushing for everybody to have access to MAID to essentially legalize suicide in a society where we still have poverty, which is supposed to be eradicated by 2030 under global goals laws with the UN CRPD. We have so many things that we're supposed to be doing.

All of this just seems like it was the wrong direction, you know, and we need people to listen to us and to hear our lived experiences and to come up from trying to communicate and being told we're mooches, we're drug addicts, you know, and we're not. So image and listening would be the most important stuff for me.

Well, that is something that we are absolutely going to be doing. I know that I am going to be much more sensitive

And to think about both sides of this coin, you've educated me today and you've educated, you know, Sarah and Caitlin. This has been a conversation in our last few podcasts, Mitchell, your comments to me on Twitter, which I read in earnest and I took them in and I felt like I am empathic. I'm an artist. I'm a creator. You know, I've had my share of stuff. I grew up with an alcoholic parent.

and I had a brother who was in jail for almost 30 years who was an addict and he lost his foot a couple of years ago to lots of health-related issues. But he's one of those guys that he doesn't even qualify for any of the programs. He's out there. He's got a job. He's 65 this year. I have seen him going through these struggles and obviously he's lucky to have

My brother and I are still alive to kind of help him along once in a while. But I think these programs need to be reassessed, reevaluated. And I think the money does need to be there. I think it's apathy. Apathy is taking over the world. We see it with disabled people. We see it in nursing homes, extended care, like COVID cracked open hospitals.

a massive cavern of this disparity in this country between the haves and the have-nots. And it's time that this ended. And I hope anyone listening to Mitchell's story today and Mitchell's friends really understands that they are getting a really shitty end of the stick.

I was just going to ask Mitchell, like, we're going to put a link to, you know, your podcast in our show notes this week. But is there anything that you would love for people to read up on a resource that you would want us to include along with your podcast? Maybe the Al Jazeera documentary. They came from another country and they covered it with a sort of a balance that the other documentaries, you know, didn't really didn't have because they were Canadian based.

So maybe that one, because it really kind of, it puts it into place. It really kind of underlines what's going on. Well, thank you so much for like being open to meet with us today and to help us share some of the story that we weren't sharing originally. And we hope that we can keep this line of communication open with you in the future. Thank you so much, Mitchell. We really appreciate your time. And I know it takes you a lot.

of preparation, both mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, to do this advocacy work. And we appreciate it more than you know. So please look after yourself. I'm hoping things get better. And you deserve better. And we all need to do better and be aware of what the fuck is going on with disabled people in this country. So thank you very much. Thank you again. Have a great day.

That was incredibly enlightening. And I know we can all do better. So yeah, it's good to look at the other side of things and to understand. Even Mitchell was saying, hey, it's a great program if you're on tier level one. But having to think about that as a solution to your life. And his advice for regular people was actually pretty enlightening too.

Listen. Yeah. And I do think too, it underscores the ability for everyone to have a meaningful and constructive discourse on social media because there are so many, I think, opportunities to align yourself with people who are like-minded and would be interested in hearing your side of things if you weren't so busy yelling and swearing at everybody.

So our good friend Mitchell is a wonderful example of that because you can reach out from a respectful place and then actually get somewhere. Hey, it is possible. Yeah, we love it. And that is the magic of social media. We're not going to sit here on our hands and not respond to the other side of any of the things that we talk about, except my music. There's no question on how brilliant I am. And listen, I played a three, 400 people at a time. So fuck, you can't knock that, right? No.

three to 400 people can't be wrong. 1700 children yesterday. Hey, you talked about whale penises. Oh man. Anyway, thank you so much, Mitchell. Thanks to everybody out there. And yeah, let's remember to listen and let's remember to listen to the Jan Arden podcast. You can go and subscribe to us. That way we'll show up in your inbox every week and you won't have to look for us. You can rate us. That helps us, uh, getting people to find the podcast. And thanks to the women in media network for podcasting us. Yeah.

And the Women in Media Podcast Network. Yes, that's it. Thanks to Caitlin Green and Sarah Burke, as always. We'll see you next week. We've got lots of fun things planned for the summer, and we always love to hear from you. Jan Arden Pod is our handle on all the formats you can find us. Don't get sick, Caitlin, for the love of God. Actually, I'll try to get better, I guess. We'll see you next week. Toodly-doo.

This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.