Sarah Jakes Roberts: Overcome Shame, Claim Your Worth & Trust the Voice That Calls You Higher!
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My guest today is one of the few women on the planet who sells out stadiums when she speaks. I feel like I cannot be on a phone call with you without getting blessed somehow, without having a revelation. It's mutual. Oh my gosh. I think I felt the whole world shake when you said three words, girl, get up, that have been echoed.

by millions and millions of women around the globe. There were many moments where I'd look like I was standing tall, but on the inside I was falling apart. I wasn't showing up with confidence. I was bearing the weight of shame, depression, worry, guilt, fear. Sometimes you need someone who looks you in the eye and says, girl, I know how you got down. I know how hard it is, but you can get up

For that one woman who's listening and thinking to herself, I will never get up from this. This grief is too heavy. This heartbreak too big. I don't think I will ever recover. That one thought, I can do better than this.

And that was the moment that changed my life. It's difficult to trust a voice that calls you higher when you become comfortable with the voices that reaffirm what you believe to be negative about yourself. I did not want what my life could look like. I wanted who I could become. Do you think we all

have a calling. Sometimes we're so distracted by other people's light that we don't take the time to kindle the fire within ourselves and we fear that it will extinguish. But your breath is a flicker that that light is still there. I just got full body chills. You listen to a podcast,

You feel less alone. You feel like someone gets me. You feel like if she made it, I can make it too. If she can do it, then I can do it too. It's not just a podcast. It's someone blowing on those embers. And we gotta see that for what it is so that we feel that fire when it begins to grow. I am jumping out of my chair because so many people think they are disqualified from faith.

or disqualified from a relationship with their creator because they think they've made too many mistakes. Or they think, well, how can I pray if I just did this and I did that? And then that one time I did that and he's got to know I also did that. Do you ever doubt God exists? When did your parents find out you waitressed in a strip club?

When he walked into the strip club and he saw me waitressing, he was like, "Baby girl." And I was like, "I'll grab my bag. I'll grab my bag, hold on." And then we drove to my parents' house. Did you ever think about dancing? Oh yeah. You're a hoe, you're a slut. I had this, you know, evidence that made it seem like they're right about me. There's not gonna be anything you say to me that I haven't already thought about myself, so like, whatever. I guess inside the Roberts household,

And also how is that different than the household growing up? - Our children are able to see a true example of what it means to be a power couple. When both people don't have to diminish themselves and wanna see the other person win and be successful. - I feel like what you just said is such a solution to imposter syndrome. How have you not doubted yourself out of this? - I am not the girl who packed down stadiums. But I was at Globe Life Field and 40,000 women were there.

The math doesn't math unless you add the God factor in it. Before we jump into this episode, I'd love to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews and one-on-one conversations with me and you to help you truly believe in yourself, trust yourself, and know that you are enough so that you can become unstoppable in living your best life.

Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me.

If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you.

If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And

And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self-love,

Unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness. Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth.

Get your copy of Worthy, plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy. Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life. Jamie Kern Lima.

Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima.

My guest today is one of the few women on the planet who sells out stadiums when she speaks, and she's here with you and me today. She is a New York Times bestselling author. She's been named one of Time Magazine's 100 Next. She's founder of the Women Evolve movement. She's a pastor at the Potter's House, and her viral messages inspire millions on a daily basis.

She's also the author of the brand new book, Power Moves. She's also my dear friend, and I am so excited for this conversation today. Sarah Jakes Roberts, welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Thank you so much, friend. I'm excited to be on the Jamie Kern Lima Show. It's such an honor. I have so much love and respect for who you are as a person, so I'm just excited to be in your presence.

I love you. I love you. It's going to be fun. And it's going to bless so many people. I feel like I cannot be on a phone call with you without getting blessed somehow, without having a revelation. It's mutual. Oh my gosh. So this is, yeah, such an honor for me. Thank you for being here. Right off the top...

I think I felt the whole world shake when you said three words, girl, get up, that have been echoed by millions and millions of women around the globe. For the person, that one girl or that one woman listening right now who maybe needs this message, can you talk about girl, get up?

Girl, get up is a message that is so near and dear to my heart because I recognize that as a woman, there were many moments where I'd look like I was standing tall, but on the inside, I was falling apart. I wasn't showing up with confidence. I was bearing the weight of shame, depression, worry, guilt, fear, fear.

And yet each day is a promise that we have an opportunity to live life free, to live life with joy and intentionality. And sometimes you need someone who looks you in the eye and says, girl, I know how you got down. I know how hard it is, but you can get up too.

And when I started sharing that message, I didn't know that there were so many people who needed to hear it. So for that one woman who's listening and thinking to herself, I will never get up from this. This grief is too heavy. This heartbreak too big. I don't think I will ever recover. Sometimes us getting up is just opening up our heart to the possibilities that this is not the end. Maybe it's a change.

Maybe it's a detour, but it's not the end. Your breath is a promise that it's not the end. So girl, get up. Can you talk about your journey?

getting up. How long do you want to be here? Okay. On one hand, I feel like I'm still getting up. But when I look back from where I came from, I recognize that I am a far cry inwardly from where I started. So my parents are in ministry. My father is Bishop T.D. Jenks.

When it was 2001, he was on the cover of Time Magazine as America's next Billy Graham. He's just this...

incredible force that kind of took the world and grabbed their attention through his messages and ministry. And yet with that level of spotlight and attention, I found myself just kind of lost in the crowd. I did not connect with God in the way that I saw my other siblings connected with God. I thought that there was something wrong with me. I thought maybe that's for them. It's not for me. And so I found the other little crew of misfits and

And I think that sense of belonging allowed me to feel wanted, but wanted by damaging behaviors. And so I got pregnant as a teenager. I was 13 years old when I got pregnant. I was 14 years old when I had my son.

And if I felt alienated before then, this pregnancy sealed the deal for me in my mind. You know, this was the final straw of like, you're not one of them. Take your own path, take your own journey and just let the good people do the good things. And I think I spent about 10 years making decisions.

harmful choices, toxic choices, bad relationships. You know, I waitress at a strip club for a little while. I dropped out of college. I just experienced abuse. I made all of these painful choices and was the victim of painful choices.

And when I was 23 years old, it's like a whole story about how I ended up leaving Child Protective Services. I had my son. By 10 years after that, I'd had a two-year-old daughter. And I'm leaving Child Protective Services because I was in this bad relationship with

And I just hit my breaking point and I made a decision and they called the police on me. I explained to the police officer what happened and I could tell when he looked at me that he knew I was in pain. And he's like, "Hey, I know you're out here, you're by yourself, you don't have any family. I was living in a different state. I'm not going to let you get in trouble for this, but I do have to report it because you're a mother and they just want to make sure the kids are okay."

So I'm leaving out of this Child Protective Services office and everything I ever thought was going to happen to me

was just within reach. I thought that you're going to be a bad mom. You know, you're never going to be able to recover from this pregnancy. And I see within reach the reality that like you could go to jail, like you could be in prison, you could lose your children. These are all realities based off of where you are right now. And I thought to myself, I think there were two moments so that are two thoughts that I could have had in that moment. And the first one is,

fine, just let it all fall apart. Or two, I can do better than this. And that one thought, I can do better than this, changed my life. That was the moment where I can really say that I started getting gut because I thought anything is better than this. So what you're a teen mom, so what you dropped out of college, anything is better than this. You can do better than this. And I just started making choice by choice by choice

And even now, sometimes I'm asking myself, like, how can you do better than this? And that was the moment that changed my life. For the person listening right now who has that whisper, I can do better than this, no matter what situation they're in right now. How do you, Sarah, hear that voice and how do you trust it?

It's difficult to trust a voice that calls you higher when you've become comfortable with the voices that reaffirm what you believe to be negative about yourself. So I think the first thing you have to really want is a hunger for that better.

You see, I was making all of these bad choices and decisions and getting myself in a mess. But underneath the root of that was me. I really did want better. Like I wanted to believe that I wouldn't be a statistic. I wanted to believe that I was still a good girl despite the fact that I was a teen mom. I wanted better for myself.

But once you have evidence that you're not better, it's just easier to lean into what the evidence is. So faith is when we decide, regardless of what I see, I'm going to tap into what I believe. And there are going to be moments when what you believe doesn't look anything like what you see. But we make decisions based off of what we believe. And so that I think I can do better, that whisper, what decision would you make if you really believe that you could do better? Right.

And how can you implement that in your food choices, your financial choices, your relationship choices, little by little? Okay, maybe you're not ready to cut them off. Can we wait five minutes before we take them back? Can we leave them on pause for an hour? You know, those little changes of I can do better is how we begin to reclaim our identity, reclaim our heart and our power and become the woman or man that we think we can be.

One thing you just said that sometimes what you believe does not look like what you see. No. And that's big. Yeah. That's big because a lot of people are like, well, I don't see that around me. And the thoughts I'm having don't say that there's a way. And when you have faith that you can believe better for your life to lean on what you believe, even if it's not what you see. Yeah. And then make one step. Just want to just want to.

reshare what you just said because that is so powerful. I just, I don't know, imagine the one person listening right now who's just having a moment because it's so easy. What you just said, Sarah, it's so easy for us to see proof all around us of how things aren't going to work out or how we don't have what it takes or how we don't belong or how we're not what we had hoped for. When you, you mentioned you're pregnant at 13. Yeah.

Being the daughter of one of the most famous preachers in the world, Bishop T.D. Jakes and First Lady Sarita Jakes, being 13. First of all, before this even happens, just being the child of very, very, very revered, famous, well-known parents.

All eyes are on you already. And then, you know, so many of us at our core, we just want to make our parents proud or, you know, so many people end up people pleasing themselves out of their own truth, trying to make other people proud. How did you journey through that process of your own identity and of...

navigating other people's, and I'm not even saying your family in this case, but other people's potential judgment going through the situation making, you know, at age 13. - You know, the thing about being a teen mom and like I was a teen mom before, like there was an MTV show where it was something that people were like maybe more used to seeing. I was a teen mom when carrying my baby through the grocery store meant people looking like, oh, you're one of those girls. Like, oh, that's so sad. She's one of those girls.

And especially when you add an element of faith and you have people like, you're going to hell, you embarrass your parents. Like there was someone who sent a blanket for me to wrap my baby in and they're like, your baby's going to die because you had no business getting pregnant at this age. And I want you to wrap this baby. Like it was so painful, so isolating to think that everything they were saying about me was true. I think that that's like,

It reshaped my identity. You know, whether they're like, you're a hoe, you're a slut, like all of the things that the young people say, the old people pulling their kids away from you because you're a bad girl. Nobody wants their kids around you. And I had this, you know, evidence that made it seem like they're right about me.

When I came to a space of like really reclaiming my identity, I realized that there's a scripture in Genesis that says what the enemy meant for evil, you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. Though it was painful at the time that it happened, there was this relief that like I no longer have to try and live up to being the good girl anymore. So I can just try and figure out who I am.

I've already disappointed so many people that like, I don't have, I don't have anyone else to please. You know what I mean? And from that space, I was able to say, so what does pleasing God look like for you? What does pleasing yourself look like? What does wholeness look like for you? What does purpose look like for you? What brings you joy? Like I had to ask myself those questions because no one knows.

a lot of people no longer felt that I was worthy of having attention turned in my direction or for someone to walk me through my own pain and trauma. And so though I stumbled, I fell. It took me a minute to find my voice. When I finally did, I knew that I could stand on my own two feet because I'd been so isolated already that it felt like I can do this even if I have to do it on my own because I've already been prepared by what I went through in my past.

How did your parents handle this when they heard the news when you were 13? Well, I can tell you, I have a 14-year-old daughter, and so I sympathize with them now because no one is dreaming that this is something that they'll go through. And so I think there was obvious disappointment, pain, but also a deep sense of loyalty and

And connection. And, you know, we're going to get through this. And I think between grieving and clinking that we stumbled to but found our way as parents, a parent raising a parent, you know. And I think that I was able to turn the corner a lot sooner than some of my other siblings did.

and being compassionate towards them. Because while I was keeping a list of things they could have done better, I saw my son with his little crayon and paper like, Mommy, you didn't do this. Mommy, you didn't do that. And so I think after the grieving process that we were able to find a way to really walk out this unique journey. Did it, you know, you mentioned people not grieving.

pulling their kids away from you or sending you things in the mail, people judging. Did that come also from other people in the church? For sure. Yeah. You know, I think that like kissing is contagious. Pregnancy is contagious. So if I remove my daughter from the girl who's doing all of the things that are fast, that's what we call it, like you're being fast. If I move them away from you, then it'll slow my child down. So yeah, that definitely happened. Yeah.

How did that impact or did it at all your faith and your relationship with God and your relationship with the church? Well, it definitely, I will say this.

I already had, I will say, a strained relationship with faith because I didn't have any of the signs that were like awarded in my community. So church for us, like first I grew up in black church. Okay. So when you grow up in black church, like you need a gift or a talent. Like if you're going to be the preacher's daughter, like do you sing? Do you play an instrument? Like can you memorize the Bible front and back? And like I had none of those things. Jamie, I knew rap lyrics, baby. Like,

Turn on Ludacris, I got you. Jay-Z, done. Like I knew rap lyrics better than I knew scripture. So I was like, you know, the Bible thing is not for me. Like it's just not clicking. And so when that incident, when I got pregnant and then people pulled their children away from me, to me, it just reaffirmed this otherness, this difference that I already possessed and

So I did have a strained relationship with faith and even church because I just had no genuine connection point. And I wasn't interested in like really playing. So I was like, I'm not going to pretend if I don't get it, I don't get it. And I guess it's just not for me. And it probably wasn't until I was 23 walking out of that CPS office where I was like,

If God is really real, if what they say is really true, then maybe his grace will work for me no matter how bad this slate is. And that radical encounter with God's grace helped me to see that all while I thought that I wasn't connecting with God, like God was connecting with me. He sent people to cover me. He sent situations to make me feel better. I found this journal where I was talking about like, oh, my gosh, I felt the pressure.

presence of God when I was in my pregnancy. And I was like, God was still there with me. The shame was just so thick that I couldn't experience his presence, but he was there watching and covering all along the way. So many things. The shame was so thick that I could not experience his presence. I want to ask you about that moment you just described, you were 23, because so many people

So many people are still waiting for that moment or they don't know if it'll ever happen or they don't know if they can believe it's going to happen. And a lot of people I know feel like something's missing in their life or they feel empty or they feel, but they doubt God exists or they, whatever it is.

I know for me, oh my gosh, I went through like almost two decades of God doubt. I was raised in a church, went through almost two decades of doubting God exists, being around all kinds of people when I moved to the East Coast who just thought if you have faith, you're just not that smart is what they would basically tell me. And they believed in science, which you can see and touch and feel and prove for which faith is not required, right? And all that. And

I remember the moment when someone had said to me, well, because I was saying I'm doubting God exists, but like I had something was bothering me about feeling that way. Almost as if I knew it wasn't true. Yeah. But my mind was like, oh, but, you know, yeah.

Doubt lives in our mind. And I remember this person said to me, well, what makes you think God can't handle your doubt? If he created the whole universe, like try telling him you're doubting him and ask him to prove you wrong. And at that point, and this took a few years, but anytime I pray for someone, at the very end of the prayer,

I would say, and by the way, like literally silently to myself, I'd say, and by the way, God, I'm doubting you exist. So if you could please prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt in my life, I'd be very grateful. In Jesus name, amen. Like it was this like long process. And for you, can you share for the person looking for like, oh,

I don't have a moment. I don't feel nothing. I want to, but I don't. And they just see stuff going wrong in your life. Two things, because you're saying when shame is so thick, right? Or it could, you could replace shame with anything else going on in people's lives is so thick. Sometimes it's hard to see past it or through it. But that moment when so many things were going a certain way in your life, how will you describe that moment?

When either your relationship changed or yeah, that moment. Oh, goodness. I think what really made me change in that moment was just how vulnerable I was. I am not sure that we can have real encounters with God without vulnerability.

I think if we come into it defensive, we come into it shameful, we come into it guilty, we come into it angry, we come into it worried, that we are desensitized. Literally, we are desensitized because we are so consumed by whatever has consumed us. And I think to have the vulnerability to say, you know what?

I'm going to release this. I don't even know for sure that I'm grabbing on to faith, but I know I can't hold on to this anymore. This doubt, this pain, this grief, I got to let it go. And to ask God in that if skeptical, Lord, I believe it helped my unbelief kind of way.

Let your presence fall into my hands in such a way that is so undeniable that it changes me. I would say that someone who's even watching this right now and feeling that way, that maybe you're not necessarily asking God to help me believe or to help me have faith, but to help me see what this moment really is.

That you would hijack a show, that you would allow this show to fall into my phone, to fall into my television show at a time where I'm questioning and wondering and to think to yourself, what kind of God would be this intentional to let these random women from these different paths of life come together to have a conversation that would meet me right in this space that I needed the most?

But if we have to be on the defense all of the time, we're not always sensitive enough to see the moments where God interrupts our regularly scheduled program to say, I see you. I can help you. I want to be in whatever you're in with you. And I have a plan that can help you. So many people fear that their past life.

or that the shame they're still carrying somehow prevents their goals or dreams from being possible. And you are proof that that is not true. That does not have to be true. Can you talk about your journey through shame and also through learning to believe you're worthy? Okay, yes, for sure. Okay.

I believed all of those things that the fear and the shame and all of those things would keep me from experiencing worth. But you know what I think really helped me is coming to a space where I did not want what my life could look like. I wanted who I could become.

I was so obsessed with what, how I wanted to change my life from the outside looking in. I want to get married. I want a white picket fence. I want to get the degree because I think it's going to look better on the outside that I never took the time to consider who do you want to be? Like, what do you want to feel? What do you want to bring you peace? How do you define peace?

And I think because our culture is so obsessed with superficial things that make you worthy, that we never do the work to really see from the inside out what is going to bring me to a space of worth. And when that shifted, that I think I can do better than this wasn't like, I think I can have a better car or I think I could have a bigger house. That I think I can do better than this was I think I could be a better person than this.

I think I can control my anger better than this. I think that I can be a better parent than this. And so what am I going to have to remove from my life to make sure that I never end up in this situation? Again, this relationship that I was in at the time was so toxic that anger was my core emotion. And I didn't want to be an angry woman. So I had to remove that relationship in order to lean closer into the woman who was a space of peace.

and trust for my children. And so we have to think more about who we want to be. Mm-hmm.

what we want to feel, what we want other people to feel when they experience us, and not so much what we want our life to look like. And how can I make a choice today that leads me closer to becoming the kind of person that other people feel safe with, that lights up a room when I walk into it? Who will I have to be? What will I have to say? And to begin to do that level of discovery so that it can change us.

And you mentioned the toxic relationship that you're in. How did you find the strength to end that relationship? Because a lot of people are still in that relationship and it may be their romantic partner. It might be their circle of friends. It could be any number of things. But how did you find the strength? I think it was accumulated. I think...

When you're on the outside looking in, you're the friend of someone who's in a toxic relationship. You're like, what don't they get? What don't they get? And I'll never forget my husband, my amazing husband. Now we were having a conversation with someone who was going through a tough season and she was in a bad relationship. And he was like, you know, Sarah, come on, do your thing. Like, you know, you've been here. What would you say? And I said, I think she should leave. But I think she knows that.

It's not that the person doesn't know that they should leave. It's that in my opinion and in my work with other women, it's that they question whether or not they can leave and still reclaim the time that they have poured into a relationship that is only showing signs of potential but not real fruit.

We invest ourselves into relationships. So when you're asking someone to walk away, you're not just asking them to walk away from a person. You're asking them to walk away from a dream they have for this person, a dream they have about what their life could be. And it takes a long time to grieve that dream. And sometimes you're in the relationship grieving. But you will know when it's time to go when you are no longer obsessed with what could

be and you're more concerned about what is when you can really see this for what it is the way that it hurts you the way that it hurts them the way that you are prohibiting them from experiencing growth because sometimes we need a person to be a villain before we leave but we don't see them as a villain so we can't leave

Sometimes we just need to see that we're both victims. And right now, two victims can't bring one another to a place of healing. And one of us has to take ownership of how we can heal ourselves, even if I can't be your conduit of healing. And so I don't need you to be evil for me to seek righteousness. You know, that doesn't have anything to do with the journey that I'm going to take.

When you say anger was your default emotion in that relationship, was that as a result of...

the relationship. Like meaning, you know, there's this idea of emotional residue, right? Like, you know, when we eat Cheetos and then all of a sudden our fingers are orange and we have, that's like visible or our tongue is blue from like a blue Slurpee. That's like visible residue, but emotional residue, you know, when you walk in a room and then you leave and you're like, I just got to shake it off or, or you're around someone and you're like,

Feels like joy, tastes like freedom. Like people, you can feel emotional residue from other people. And I think when you say anger was your default, was that, do you think, a result of the toxicity of the relationship you were in? I think I was angry for most of my childhood, but I wasn't allowed to feel anger. You know, I tried to gentle parent my children, but my parents didn't try and gentle parent me. Yeah?

My parents, like I came from a culture in which like your parents tell you how to feel like you better not be angry. Like I know you're not sad over there. And so it teaches you. You better be grateful. You better be grateful. I know you didn't slam the door. And so I think that especially as my parents ministry transition, I felt like we didn't have as much access to them. They were busy.

I didn't fit in at church. And so I had all of this anger that I could not express. And in this relationship, I had anger, but I could express it. And so, you know, it was it was fun. Don't call anyone on me. I'm OK now. But it was fun to have this space where you could feel angry and release it. But I just got tired of being angry all of the time.

And so I don't think that it was just the relationship that made me angry, but I do think that it was an outlet for the first time that I experienced where my anger could come out in rage. It could come out in language. It could come out in whatever form it needed to come out in. And it didn't have to stay trapped in my body. And so being able to release it was therapeutic until I realized that I need to feel other things besides anger.

And I can't allow this anger to continue to control my life. And so I've done a lot of inner work and therapy and healing to make room for other expressions of emotion besides anger or suppression. Because anger can be so healthy. Yeah. Suppression. The 13 year old. Oh, the 13 year old Sarah says,

If you had told her, you will one day be packing stadiums and be inspiring millions and millions and millions of people, and especially girls and women around the world, to feel less alone and more enough and all of that. And you will be a pastor. Yeah, that's the part. I would have been like, as a rapper? Yeah. Yeah.

As a star? No, as a pastor, I would have said, oh, you got really close, but that's probably going to be my sister, not me. Like right neighborhood, wrong person. I did not anticipate at all that this would be my life at all. I still have to invite my 13 year old girl into these rooms that this 35 year old woman stands in because I want her to see just how much her life has changed.

Mm-hmm. Do you think we all have a calling? For sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Every person on the planet. No one is random. No one's life is here by coincidence. Everyone is here on assignment to bring light into whatever little corner of the earth they possess. And...

Sometimes we're so distracted by other people's light that we don't take the time to kindle the fire within ourselves. And we fear that it will extinguish. But your breath is a flicker that that light is still there and the right environments, the right words allow that flicker to consume whatever space we're called to. But for sure, I think everyone's got a purpose, a call, an assignment here on the earth to

I just got full body chills. If you are breathing, your light is there. Your light is there. Because a lot of people think, I don't know how to find my light. I don't know if maybe I was born without a light. Maybe someone extinguished my light. Maybe I'm just here to cheer on other people's light. But if you are breathing, your light is flickering. For sure. Yeah, I mean...

I will not say that someone hasn't tried to blow your candle out and that there weren't some moments where it looked like it was successful. But what I'm telling you is if you're still here, that that flame is still there. And you're talking to a girl who's had a fire extinguisher, you know, blown on that light. And yet still those embers were enough to start a fire again. And

And I think that the reason why so many of us think that we don't have a light is because we think that our light needs a platform or it needs the validation of an audience. Not recognizing that our light does not need permission to shine, nor does it need the fuel of someone else's validation to make it fiery. Our light has permission to shine the moment we look at someone and say, you look good today, girl.

The moment we walk into a space and we say, I have an idea and I think it could be helpful. The moment we say, I'm going to start this business, not just for profit, but because I want to do something that matters. When you treat yourself like you matter, anything that you give to the world makes the world better. And so we have to believe in our light before we campaign that other people say that we have one. Like, girl, you got a light, whether other people see it or not. It doesn't mean that it's not there. Yeah.

I have met women in their 20s who feel like stuff didn't go their way and now it's kind of over. And then you talk about 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 100s. One thing you just said, and for everyone listening who can't see this video, just to explain it, you basically did the motion of someone doing a fire extinguisher on your fire and

for all the things that you went through. And then you said, if there are still embers, there are still embers, there could be a fire. But that's why podcasts like this are important. Because, oh my gosh, God just gave me this. It's like the same thing that can extinguish a

Also can build one too. I don't know if you've ever seen someone build a campfire and sometimes there's nothing but embers there and they're trying to build it. And so what they do, they blow on it and God will use the very same thing that should have blown your light out to be the thing that makes that flame turn into a bonfire, a consuming bonfire that

Like I had nothing but embers left and I thought that's okay. I'm gonna work these embers for me and my two kids I'm a single mom But I'm gonna work these embers for me and my two kids and I started blogging and I'm blogging just about what I'm learning as I'm going on this journey and then there would someone someone to come along and say thank you for writing this it saved my life and it seemed like it was just a comment, but it was really someone just blowing we had

to take notice of the moments where someone blows on those embers and helps them become a fire. You listen to a podcast, you feel less alone. You feel like someone gets me. You feel like if she made it, I can make it too. If she can do it, then I can do it too. It's not just a podcast. It's someone blowing on those embers. And we got to see that for what it is so that we feel that fire when it begins to grow.

So that is for you watching and listening right now. Please feel me and Sarah blowing on you right now. We are blowing on you right now. And I've got big cheeks, so it's not a little blow. It's like a big thing happening here. It is a big blow on you right now. And actually on that note, what I just want to ask everyone in this moment is, I just think some of the things you've shared so far are so powerful and I cannot wait to see you

And I want to encourage everyone listening to share how this has impacted you just already, just already. The embers that you know you had that you forgot were there and you thought they were ashes, but they're not. They're embers and there is flame inside of them and they're going to reignite today. And I want you to tag Sarah Jakes Roberts and me because I want to read all about it and repost it as well. So powerful. Can you talk about, Sarah, about the ways...

that shame can show up in our lives and what happens if we're just not aware of it or we ignore it altogether? - Oh, sure. So for me, I will say that shame showed up in my life by convincing me to be silent. It convinced me to be small in rooms, to not take up space. It convinced me to settle and not strive.

It convinced me to only do what was within my reach and don't dream beyond that to avoid scenarios where failure or rejection could occur because I was avoiding shame. If you ask yourself, what am I avoiding by not pursuing X, Y, and Z? And at the end of the day, it's shame. Then you know that shame is still showing up in your life.

because you are afraid to feel that over and over again. And so we make decisions that will keep us from feeling the potential of shame, not realizing that the very fact that we're standing in this present moment meant that whatever we are ashamed of did not kill us. It didn't take us out. Whether it happened five minutes ago or 10 years ago, if I am still here, it didn't kill me, which means I can survive feeling shame.

The question is, can I move from feeling shame? Can I dare to open myself up in such a way that I don't allow one moment to define me for the rest of my life? And I think that's what happened to me. I spent 10 years thinking this one moment is going to define me for the rest of my life. And as a result of that, I did not take advantage of any other moment that came my way, which means that I let it define me.

because I didn't live with the reality that this is a moment that could change the tide, that I could redefine it by showing up fully in this moment. Shame keeps us trapped in what happened and what was, and it keeps us from showing up and maximizing where we are and what could be. You let believing one moment define you, prevent you,

from experiencing all the other moments. All the other moments. And allowing all those other moments to inform me too. I let one moment inform my identity, but the moments where someone said, you're so smart, the moments where someone said, you're so talented, you're such a good writer, I rejected those. I wouldn't allow those to inform me. I only allowed negativity to inform my belief systems and then attract it

more negativity to inform my identity. And so I think someone who's trying to break out of shame has to listen to all the other things too, because there are clues in our environment that help to break us out of what we are married to believing no matter how negative it is. What if it's not true? What if it was true in that moment? Maybe you did do something stupid, child. Maybe you did something

a little silly, like maybe you weren't perfect, but maybe you'd know better now. And maybe that's balanced by the reality that you are incredibly talented in this space, that there's still opportunity for you to show up in wisdom in the other spaces. And so allowing ourselves to receive the full picture and not just that one small instance can be very powerful. How do you think God feels about, uh,

When we have different situations, like, okay, we get pregnant at 13. Okay, we are waitressing at a strip club. What do you think God thinks about that? As much as I want to believe that God is like face palming, like, oh, this girl. God doesn't just look at what we did. God looks at the heart.

I mean, scripture tells us man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. It is my belief that when God looks at any of the decisions we've made, no matter how harmful they were or how much we regret them, that he looks at those situations with compassion, that he sees that that's just a little girl trying to be loved. Mm-hmm.

That's just a little boy trying to find his way. That's someone trying to recover from not having the parent that they needed, not having the resources that they needed. God sees the full picture. And that's why God is God. We hone in on one moment. But God doesn't just see that moment. He sees how we got there. And then he sees what's possible for us, too. I know where you're going to land. He saw the teen pregnancy and the stadium in the same lens. Woo!

He saw the teen pregnancy and the incredible husband in the same. He saw all of those things in the same lens. So I don't think he cringes the way that we cringe because he knows the full story. And part of surrender is saying, I want to trust your vision because right now what I'm seeing is not looking too good. It's not looking too good. But I have a good God and that good God must see something that I don't see. So just allow me to see you today and tomorrow and the day after that. And we'll see where that takes us.

I am jumping out of my chair because so many people think they are disqualified from faith or disqualified from a relationship with their creator because they think they've made too many mistakes. Or they think, well, how can I pray if...

I just did this and I did that. And then, then that one time I did that and he's got to know I also did that. And then we, and we think, and, and to hear how you just positioned it about, oh yeah, but he's not seeing those things. He's seeing like your heart and he's seeing all of that. And in your case, in your case, he sees, oh, oh, she's pregnant at 13. And also, um,

In 21 years, she is going to pack a 40,000 person stadium in Dallas who all came to hear it. And I'm going to be present all up in that place. Like he's seeing all of it. And I just want to call this out because it's easy for people to think that

God's judging them versus like their heart. And so then they disqualify themselves from, or they've had an experience where a place of faith has judged them or a person inside a place of faith has judged them and they've encountered imperfect humanness that's then blocked their

Can I tell you a story? Yes. One, I think that when we feel that way, that we've done something that has somehow changed the way God feels about us or disqualified us, that we are making our relationship with God performance-based. Mm-hmm.

And that generally doesn't just start in our relationship with God. It shows up in our world. I mean, it shows up in education systems. It shows up in our family systems where if you perform well, then you are awarded for performing well. And when you perform negatively, then you are also there are consequences to that. And so we take that into our worldview as it relates to faith.

But just a cursory view of scripture shows us that like there are so many times where people disappointed God and God was like, you are getting on my nerves. But I still got a promise for you. I got plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a hope and a future. Now we're not to settle this debt about some things that you've made, but I still have a plan for you. And so when we have that performance based perspective, I challenge us to lean into a love that isn't about performance. It is exclusively based on who God is. God is not interested in your performance.

God is faithful because God is faithful. He says, for my own sake, I throw your sins into the sea of forgetfulness. I don't even want to remember. I blot out your transgressions. I don't remember what you did yesterday that was negative because I'm so good. I'm so faithful that like carrying around that negativity isn't good for me. So we got to be more like God in that way.

There's so much more coming up in this episode. You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth.

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And now more of this incredible conversation together. But I'm going to tell you a story. So when I first got pregnant, someone really close to me says to me, I always knew to expect something like this from you. And from that point forward, it changed even what I thought I could trust about myself because I'm like, I didn't think that I would, I didn't think that this would happen to me. Like, is there something about the way I show up, the way that I carry myself that makes this feel like,

this was bound to happen to me and maybe I shouldn't trust myself. And so I was going on tour. This is, I'd started blogging and I'd started woman evolve, but I feel like every time God brings me into something new that I feel insecure again. I'm like, God, are you sure? Get somebody else to do it. I'm not the one. And I was about to go on tour for the very first time. And I was just like, I have nothing to say to thousands of women from city to city city. It can't be me. Like, God, I don't know what I'm going to do. Like, I'm going to be embarrassed.

Please, please, please let it rain, let it pour, let it cancel. And when I was worshiping, I was sitting in church at my husband's church in Los Angeles and I'm worshiping. And I just felt the presence of God say, I always knew to expect something like this from you.

And God took those very same words that someone said when I was a teenager that made me question myself to affirm that he always knew to expect this out of me. Those good moments, these fruitful moments, these moments where people would recognize my calling. He knew that even when I didn't, even when people were expecting the worst, he expected the best. And so I hold that close to my heart whenever I'm stepping into a moment and

And I love it because those words used to make me feel bad. But like I'm getting ready to do the Jamie Kern Lee Michelle and I'm pulling up and I hear God say, I always knew to expect something like this out of you. So be in peace. I've gone ahead of you. Be in peace. You're not walking into the unknown. You are walking into the already planned. You are walking into the moment that I knew before I formed you in your mother's womb. So trust this moment. Just be yourself. God's already done the rest.

I always knew to expect something like this from you. I'm just, every single one of us has had somebody say something to us. Right. And sometimes we let those words take root and sometimes we replay them over and over in our head. Oh yeah. We let them stick to us like labels. And that story you just shared about hearing those same words, same words, but like,

Full circle. I mean, completely. And this was, you know, before the stadium thing. Like, every time I'm, like, insecure and just God reminds me, like, I know who you are for real. Not who shame made you. Not who pain made you. I know who you are for real. And if you just trust what I know about you and trust the rooms where I send you, then you're going to be fine. Yeah.

So good. How, right now, 2024, do you ever doubt God exists? I don't doubt that God exists. I think that I doubt that God will show up for me again.

in new areas and uncharted territory or like I'm raising kids you know yeah and I'm like God are you going to show up for them the way you've shown up for me like when are they

going to have an encounter that, you know, just makes it undeniable for them. Like, God, can you get me through this? Like, God, it's not that I doubt that he exists, but whenever we're doing, like, my life is completely by faith now. Like, there's nothing in my life that has not been built on faith, which means that each new dimension of my life requires a new dimension of faith. So I'm constantly walking out

this new revelation of who God is. And I am hoping that I'm going to be one of those people in just a few years where I never be like, God, you're going to show up? God, you're going to show up? Like, I'm going to take this step, but you know, is my foot going to sink this time? And each time he's showing me that he's going to be there, but there are still some steps that I'm taking where I'm like,

God, I hope you're there when I take this step. And he's been there. He hasn't failed me. It's me. I'm the punk. It's not him. With, you know, I'm thinking right now, actually, before I, before I share this, I just want to ask you this one question. When you, when did your parents find out you waitressed in a strip club? So their head of security was basically like my uncle. And

And they knew there was something going on with me. And so they had him start like following me from college campus to like wherever I was going. Because I was saving up money because I knew that I was going to drop out of college. And I was trying to make a smooth transition for myself. And so when he walked into the strip club and he saw me waitressing, he was like, baby girl. And I was like, I'll grab my bag. Yeah.

I'll grab my bag, hold on. And then we drove to my parents' house and he told me I could tell them. So he didn't have to. So that he didn't have to. When he came inside, what... First of all, how did you feel seeing him? What were you wearing? You couldn't wear the clothes that the dancers wore because the dancers are there to make the money, right? So you're there to make sure you don't take attention from them. Sat on black shorts and a black t-shirt and some black sneakers. But when I saw him...

I will spare you the language that went through my head. But it wasn't anything that I would say on a Sunday. I was not a happy girl. I knew it. I knew I was in trouble. Did you ever think about dancing? Oh, yeah. I think the only thing that kept me from dancing is because I had my son as a teenager at stretch marks.

And I did not think that I could be a dancer and stretch marks, have stretch marks. And so the owner of the club was like, your face is a 10. You know, like if you could dance, like you could really take home even more money. But I was so insecure about my body. Like I had not seen the dancers that had stretch marks. They were there. But I was so insecure about my body at that age that I thought, oh, gosh, the moment I show them my stomach with the stretch marks, they're not going to let me dance. So I just stayed on the waitressing side of things.

And then so your parents found out. And then how long before you shared it with anyone else beyond your parents? Oh, no one knew until I put it in my book. Yeah. So I wrote a memoir called Lost and Found in 2014. And yeah, no one knew. So the publisher thought that I would be writing a book about my teen pregnancy. And then by the time I laid out the whole book, they were like, okay. Okay.

That's a little bit more than just she got pregnant. So yeah, nobody knew until then. Until then. And how was it received? I think by then people were so...

grateful to be seen. Yes. Yes. And grateful that someone was willing to say that, like to tell the truth. Yes. About their life, no matter how ugly or cringy it may have been, that they just were like grateful to not be alone. I'm sure there was someone who didn't like it, but God protected me

from it. All I saw were the women were like, "Girl, I almost thought about it too." Or like, "Girl, I got pregnant too." Or, "You told my story when you said that too. Thank you for making me feel less alone." So it was not the scarlet letter that I thought it was going to be. But I will say by then, I'd been a teen mom walking around with a baby on my hips. I was like, "There's not going to be anything you can say to me that I haven't already thought about myself." So like, whatever. Whatever. Yeah.

Writing is such a process. So in my first year of college, I had – first of all, after high school, I was working all these jobs and I, for the first time ever, was crushing it in one of the jobs in sales at a health club and I kept moving up and moving up into management and business.

No one in my family had ever gone to college. And it's a long story, but I ended up deciding I'm going to go. I move off to college. All of a sudden, I'm waitressing in Denny's. And I'm like, I miss this. I'm crushing it at work, and I'm making all this money. And I was trying to figure out how I'm going to pay my way through school. And I got a job waitressing at a strip club. Oh, really? Yeah. Hey, girl. Hello. And I waitress at a strip club.

But on weekends, waitress at Denny's during the week did not. I mean, people knew because one of the guys I dated I met in the strip club. Nice. But I kept it a secret for the longest time. And I think about why did I? And then I think about how that experience, waitressing in the strip club, taught me.

every single one of us is so similar. Whether someone is dancing there, whether somebody is sitting next to me in a college class or teaching the college class, whether it does not matter, right? Whether it's the person waitressing with me at Denny's. And Sarah, when I look at this experience in my life, I believe our steps are ordered. And I think about

This lesson for me of learning, oh, we are all in this one life together. We're all trying to do the best we can. Like, like anyone who thinks they can judge another person based on what they went through or what they're doing now or what they think their profession is or isn't is all a lie. Like so many of us just, just are doing the best we can with our circumstances.

And I remember taking that understanding and those experiences into launching this business in my living room. And then eventually the IT Cosmetics grew where we had over 7 million customers just on our website in the US and then millions more globally. And a lot of people are like, what is it? How do you do it? What's so great about your product? And I'm like, well, the product's great.

But I understand. I understand every woman. I really felt like my collective experiences helped me be part of and understand what all kinds of women feel, think, see, experience. And I saw it as the greatest gift. And so when I decided to share it,

My stepdad in his 80s did not know. He did not know I waitressed in a strip club until just this year. And he's very conservative. His dad's a pastor. His twin brother's a pastor. Yeah. And he just kind of said, oh, I think I knew something was going on. I think I knew to say that our parents are smarter than we give them credit for sometimes. But what I'm getting to in this is that part of why I shared it

was along with a lot of other stuff is because it is so easy in 2024 for people to see social media or to see everyone's highlight reel. And maybe if they're just stumbling upon you, they think, oh, wow, she is the future of ministry.

Oh, wow. She's impacting millions. Oh, wow. She has, you know, when she does an event, the stadium fills up, right? Or they might see me and go, oh, wow, she, you know, built some big business. And, you know, and their lives must be, they must have something different than we do or whatever. And I think what I'm so hopeful for, too, about this conversation about women

Why I shared, I worked in a strip club about all of it is that I hope every person who thinks that somehow their past is

determines what's possible in their future or disqualifies them from faith or any of those things. I hope and pray that by some of the many things you've shared and I've shared that they see those things and they're like, oh, okay, maybe I can start my business or maybe I can...

preach a sermon or maybe I can minister in my own way, in my own calling. Maybe I, maybe I can end an unhealthy relationship. Maybe I do like, maybe I am worthy of love. That is my hope and prayer by sharing out. I want to talk about, you know, the first time

I don't know if you'll remember this. You and I were introduced and we did a phone call together. First time we ever met, we're on a phone call. And I want to share this moment because I think it was a FaceTime because I remember you were either making mac and cheese or chocolate cake, mac and cheese or chocolate cake. Probably both at the same time, knowing me and Jamie. Yeah. And you're in your kitchen, no makeup, full sweats, which I'm almost every day of my life, no makeup, full sweats.

And I remember just the first moment I ever saw you as a moment you and I were talking for the first time. And the thing I just, like my whole body just like relaxed because it's,

It could be easy for someone who's such a public figure to show up in a very sort of like public way. I know from my own experiences, I know that while authenticity alone does not automatically guarantee success or a friendship or a relationship, inauthenticity guarantees failure. For sure. In all of those things.

But so many people are scared to show up as who they truly are. And I just remember the moment you and I talked for the first time. And I was like, she's letting me see her. I'm going to let her see me. Like, she may never want to talk to me after this call, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And can you just talk about your journey of just...

And I know, I'm sure it started when you had no other choice at 13, but to be like, this is who I am. But now the way that you're stepping into this role where you're impacting millions and millions and millions of people, and some days you look like you're on the cover of Vogue and other days you're just like, just like me.

Just like me with sweats and no makeup and just, you know what I mean? So how have you stepped into embracing who you are, not feeling like if I'm me, I won't be loved? And how can every person listening do that in their lives? That's honestly why I wrote the book Power Moves, because I wanted to understand that

how I felt just as powerful at home in my sweatpants as I did when I was standing on a platform in front of thousands of people. It felt like there was someone who I needed to become in order to have a platform and

And I think context is like, I became someone, I say it by accident, like I know God planned it, like it was a part of God's plan, but like I wasn't seeking platform. I wasn't building followers. Like I wasn't trying to like grow anything. I was just trying to be myself and to hang on to myself when I became her. And everyone who got to watch was just like a bonus. You know what I mean? I'll share what I'm learning, but I didn't do this for anyone else. And

And yet people would tell me like, you're a powerhouse. You're a powerhouse. I'm like, girl, I'm minding my business and drinking my water. And God's just doing whatever God does. And I realized that what God was using was my commitment to authenticity. If I was willing to be myself, whoever that was in any given moment, God said I can use it. So when I'm a mom...

Instead of trying to be like, you know, the moms that I see on Instagram or trying to be the mom that I read about in a book or trying to like just be who you are in this moment. And sometimes that's baby, I'm tired. And sometimes it's let's make cookies. And then my phone rings and it's a lawyer talking about a deal. And I'm like, well, we need to look at the contracts. And that's power in that context.

Power Moves for me is about building identities that allow us to be sensitive to the fluid nature of power. What makes us powerful is constantly changing. It's constantly moving. And so what we need to do is to be sensitive to what will make me powerful in this context.

And it always starts with who can I, what's even possible from a space of authenticity? What do I have energy wise? What do I have intellect wise? I can't pretend to know what you know about business, but I can come in authentically and say, can you explain to me what that means? And that's power for me. I can't be anyone other than who I am.

And if I am willing to be who I am, then I can learn so that I can become whoever God has in mind. But I just got tired of pretending. I got tired of the pressure of performance. And there are times like even on Instagram, like, yes, I may look like the cover of a magazine. And then there are other moments where I will quite literally take my wig off, readjust it and fix it while getting dressed because I'm

All of it's real. I'm just as much the girl who took the picture with the eyes and the face and the hair as I am the girl who's struggling to keep her wig on and trying to wipe down the countertops at the same time and to give myself the room and capacity.

to be whoever I am in any given moment is the most powerful gift that anyone can be. And so that book to me, Ignite Your Confidence and Become a Force, that Ignite Your Confidence is about igniting your confidence to be yourself and then see that you're a force when you are in your truest, most authentic form.

I love what you said too about if I show up authentically, then God can use it. Like in those moments, people say, oh, you're a powerhouse. You're like, oh, I'm showing up authentically and then God can move it. You know, it's like all the data that and all the studies that show that it's like impossible. A lot of people don't realize this because we're so tempted to show up as our representative, as the role we think we need to play. And it's like all the studies show that.

You cannot have an authentic connection, a true connection with another human being, whether that is a friend, a partner, your customers in your business, your community online, unless you show up as who you truly are.

And yet we keep thinking we have to show up as someone different to succeed. And it's the opposite. It's the opposite. - Completely. I love what I'm seeing on TikTok. Like I see people who are like in their cars, like they're just in their cars. They're like walking down the street. They're inviting you into these authentic moments.

Some of my favorite moments are seeing couples who have decided that like he cooks, she cleans, she cleans, he cooks because they have decided that maybe the historical versions of what marriage look like doesn't work for them. And they tried. Like I tried to be who I was supposed to be in a marriage based off of stereotypes and TV shows. But what works for us authentically is a different form of partnership.

And we have to be willing to shed the skin of expectations and supposed to and stereotypes so we can say, what would make our marriage powerful? What kind of mother do I want to be? What do I think a powerful mother looks like without the projections of other people's realities? And then what if I step into her? And what if no one else has seen it and no one else understands it?

but I get it. My partner gets it. My employees get it. My children get it. And we have a bond that's built on something real and intimate because everyone has permission to show up as themselves. Take us inside the Roberts household and the dynamics of you, your husband, Tere, your kids. And also how is that different than the household growing up? Okay, girl. Okay. So, um,

One of the things that I fell in love with my husband from, first of all, we went on a date March 17th, 2014. My book was coming out and we went on this date and we fell in love on that date, which is crazy. We'd never allow- First date? First date. Yep. Would never allow our children to do this. We would be like, absolutely not. Go back to the drawing board. But we fell in love. But one of the things I fell in love with him so easily was the way that he listens. He listens. Yeah.

He made me feel like my thoughts have value. And then he was eager to pull out more of my thoughts. And so our relationship is one of mutual respect and one of true partnership. And that's,

That has allowed us to create space for our children to really discover their voices as well and to share them in a space that we challenge them. Right. We're not just, you know, yes, people, but we're like I'm convinced that our youngest daughters are going to be lawyers because they're like, hold on. You didn't let me finish my thought. I need to finish expressing myself. And I attribute that to him being such a great listener and.

and then allowing me to begin to speak up and them seeing that duality makes them okay to listen and to speak as well. And so every day is a courtroom in our household and he and I are co-counselors and we're fighting for our lives.

We're coming up with strategies for our businesses, strategies for our children, our organizations, our travel schedules. We're trying to figure out who does what. If you take this trip, then who's doing the school runs? Can you pick this one up? I'll do this one. And our children are able to see a true example of what it means to be a power couple when both people don't have to diminish themselves and want to see the other person win and be successful.

And I can't say honestly that that's a lot different than what I saw. What I will say, though, is that we did not have as much liberty as my children have to like speak up and share their thoughts, feelings, emotions, you know. And I hope that they will have less work to do as adults.

because we taught them that their voice and feelings and emotions mattered even as children. It may not change the decision, but at least you get to express it. I get to hear where you came from, and then we can move forward. So I hope that they don't have to suppress as much as I did. I feel like we're in this sort of new era of awareness around trauma, around healing, around deciding things.

on an individual basis. And again, a lot of this has to do with privilege of access to information or access to therapy or access to just understanding all this. But we're in this new era where a lot of people are starting to take a look at their own childhood trauma and they're starting to try and process. I remember I lost my mom about a year ago and

I feel like a lot of us come into this position where we want to have tough conversations or ask questions, but we also just don't want to hurt our parents. And we're also like, okay, well,

we're kind of in this tough spot of trying to reconcile things or understand things or express things. But then also sometimes we're starting to parent our parents. We're like, oh, I just want to protect them now, but I'm really upset that this happened. And I want to understand why that happened. And you and I were talking about this earlier off camera, but I am before the show often, um,

When we, a lot of us approach our parents to have a conversation, we're met with defensiveness or parents that just shut down, or they say things like, you had such a good childhood. What are you talking about? And I was blessed to watch an episode you put out on your YouTube channel with you and your mom, First Lady Sarita Jakes, having a conversation about

You're both in your pajamas. Yeah. And I don't even know how the conversation started, but somehow I was like captivated and inside this experience where the two of you went into these topics about loneliness and about your journey through therapy and about some of the things you shared with your mom and the way that your mom felt

handled and received some of this, I thought was such a

beautiful example for some of us to follow and watch in terms of how do we navigate these conversations. So I'm going to link this episode here in the show notes for people to see what I'm talking about. But can you share a little bit about that conversation? What happened and how do you advise people listening to have some of these conversations with their parents? So

I think that she and I were talking about when my family and I moved to Dallas. I was born in Charleston, West Virginia. We moved to Dallas, I was seven turning eight. And we were just talking about the transition to Dallas.

And she said something like, if there was anything that I could do differently, it would be that I would have kept you all closer. And now that my daughter is eight, I can see how that separation really unearthed my sense of family and foundation. Little things like we were in a small church with like 50 families.

And we'd run around the church and like no one really cared about us. Our first Sunday in Dallas, and no one cared about us. Like no one thought we were special. You know, everyone was like an honor and uncle. They're like, get somewhere and sit down. Did you get a snack? You need to put some lotion on. It was, it was everyone's family. So we moved to Dallas that first Sunday, 1500 people joined the church and

So all of a sudden now we need security because there are death threats coming towards my dad. You know, they're ushering my parents away. Sometimes they're leaving us behind. My parents are sitting in one space. We're sitting on the other side of the room. And at eight years old in a new environment where you can't access the security of your parents, there's just this feeling of disconnection.

We were talking about transitioning to Dallas, though, just overall. And she said I would have done that differently. And at the time, I had just moved back to Dallas. I was living in L.A. Now I'm a grown woman. And I'm committed to, like, keeping my kids close to me because I don't want them to experience what I experienced. And the moment she said that, I became that 7-year-old little girl who wanted her mom to keep her close. And I just was not prepared for her to say that on camera. I thought we'll have a nice, fluffy family.

surface conversation. And she pulled my husband in his book talks about the house that brokenness built. It was like she reached into this house that brokenness built and removed a brick and everything came crumbling down. And in that moment, I was so grateful that she saw how traumatic that was for me.

And if a parent is in a position where if they can be honest, they know that they have had their children exposed to less than ideal circumstances. First of all, you got to forgive yourself.

You did the best you could with what you had. You didn't know that they were going to feel lonely. You didn't know that they were going to feel rejected. You did the best you could with what you have. When they come back to say to you, hey, mom, dad, that thing hurt me. Hey, mom, I think it wounded me. It changed the way I see myself, the world, God. You got to be willing to own that you wish you could have done better. I think our job as adult children on the other side of that is to get to a place of forgiveness without having to have the conversation.

To get to a place where we can say, you know what, whether they were terribly abusive or were almost perfect, but dropped the ball in one big way. I bet they did the best they could with what they had. And maybe they should have done better. Maybe it's not excusable. I'm not telling you that you have to excuse it, but we have to live with the reality that they gave us what they had.

They gave us what they had. Now, what are you going to do with what you have? If you can never have the conversation, whether they're not here anymore or they're just not in a space where they can be open to it, you got to be willing to say they did the best with what they could. Now that I know, what am I going to do with what I know?

And I think that if both people are willing to do that work, there may be an opportunity where the conversation flows naturally. And your job, I think if you're the adult child, is to have grace for that parent. And if you are the parent, it's to have grace for yourself while you create space for the child. Yeah.

In that conversation, you weren't prepared for your mom to say, oh, I see that and I would have done it different. No, not at all. I didn't think she realized it.

I didn't think because I think as a child, you're like, if you realized it, then you should have done differently. I think she realized it in retrospect or she didn't realize how big of a deal it was going to be. That's what I worry about with my kids. So we are a blended family with six and, you know, I don't travel much because I try to stay as close to them as possible. But there could be a day where they're like, you didn't travel much. You didn't think it was a big deal, but it was a big deal that you traveled and that you weren't there as much as I wanted you to be because we

don't get to qualify what should be enough for them. They have their own little jars of capacity and we don't get to say, well, that should have been enough. And I want to be in a space where I can hear their experience without experiencing shame or judgment. So I got to find a way to be compassionate with myself and make room for them. And I feel like that's the work and journey that I'm on.

In the conversation with your mom, you talked about experiencing loneliness moving to Dallas recently. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Is loneliness an issue in your life right now?

Loneliness is not an issue in my life right now. But when we did first move, so I'd lived in L.A. for almost 10 years. And you could not tell me I was not going to be a Malibu girl. Like, I was just like, I'm going to be one of those people that's just like always from L.A. Oh, I'm taking the 101. I'm going to 405. Like, I am an L.A. girlie.

And it became increasingly clear that God was definitely calling us back to Dallas to see what our life could look like in the context of serving at the Potter's House Dallas in leadership. And I felt lonely because I knew I wasn't the same girl when I left.

I was concerned that I would not be able to stop the cycle that I thought I had escaped. There's a quote somewhere floating around on Instagram by someone so brilliant. I don't know who it is, but they were brilliant to say that like healing isn't healing until it's been tested in the environment where you were wounded.

Because sometimes we're only healed because we're no longer exposed. And so I thought I'd healed because I'd moved to L.A. and I'm like, I'm not that girl. I'm fine. My life is this and that. But going back to Dallas confronted my need for boundaries, my need to speak up, my need to make space for what I needed as a woman with a husband and children. And it put that to the test.

And I will say that it's a funny thing that happened. I was preaching and my wig started slipping, so I took it off and it went viral. It was everywhere. It wasn't on purpose and I was mortified, but it was like God sending me a message that like, I will use you in your most pure form and I will still get the glory out of it. Because it went viral, but people were like, it changed my life. When she took it off, I felt like I could show up in my authenticity too.

And it was probably around that moment where I was like, I can be here and be myself. I can really answer this call no matter what it looks like in my own way and voice. So just this weekend before I came to you, we had like family over and friends and community and there was joy in our house in Dallas. So I don't experience loneliness there anymore.

partly because I found a way to be myself. And I think wherever you can find a way to be yourself, you don't experience loneliness. And I think when I came to myself and I invited my husband into that process, that our partnership and our roots grew even deeper. We made a promise to each other when we moved to Dallas that we would keep our marriage like the core of everything that we do.

And so I had to bring the best version of myself into the marriage and not this traumatized little girl. And I think that once I went through that, that we had even deeper roots. And so I think wherever he is, I'll never experience loneliness, but I'm also, you know, hanging on to the best version of myself.

How Oprah has said she has three friends in her life, right? And for you, do you have a lot of close friends? And have you made new friends as an adult? What role do friendships? I do not have a lot of close friends. I probably can count on one hand, not using all fingers, how many close friends that I have. I would consider there are probably three friends I've made in adulthood that

And we're not close because we talk all of the time as much as we just understand one another. And because we understand one another, we know that we can pick up the call phone at any moment and that other person is going to pick up and be there. Mm hmm. Yeah.

A lot of people are like, I want more friends as an adult, but I don't know how to make them and that whole kind of thing. Do you feel like you want more friends or do you feel like it's difficult being in such a public position where so many people come to you with their problems? They come.

They come to you with their prop. It's like I always think about dentists. Like they always say that, you know, people start showing them their teeth at cocktail parties. Yeah, you're right. And they do not want to see your teeth. If you meet a dentist, do not show the dentist your teeth. But yeah.

And it's funny with, you know, when I ran a makeup company for a decade, people would always say to me, don't look at my makeup right now. I'm like, I am not even the slightest bit interested in your makeup. I promise. Yeah. And so in your profession, do you, is it...

a challenge at all to let people in or to make new friends. It's a challenge, but it was going to be a challenge for me regardless because I'm so introverted. I have a dry sense of humor and all I want to do is sit at home. So it was going to be a challenge no matter how you slice it. I am not interested in making any new friends.

because I value friendships. I feel like they're an investment and I don't want to just be like friends because your numbers in my phone, like I want to be the person that you can know, makeup, sweatpants, like girl, I'm coming over the, you know, I want to be that kind of friend and I don't have a lot of space for those types of friendships. So I'll take care of the ones that I do have. That you do have. Yeah. I always find too that, you know, um,

I always feel like you learn, you really do learn about people over time. Like for me, it takes time, right? It takes them being exposed to that one thing and then me knowing a year later, they kept it. They didn't tell anybody. Yeah, for sure. You know what I mean? For sure. Or like, just like, and also just going through ups and downs and different things and having huge victories and going, wow, they were actually really happy for me. Yeah. Like there wasn't that like- That little-

I wish, though, I wish that I need to expand my definition of friend because I do think I'm an all or nothing. Like we're either sweatpants, no makeup or like we're associates.

And I do feel like, you know, I miss out on having valuable insights and conversations with people because I'm just like, we're not going to be friends. So like, what's the point in like going to a mixer and going to meet? You know what I mean? I just, I need to expand. Like you can be friends with people without sitting up in sweatpants. Yeah.

Right. I'm just going to say this for the record, that if it's sweatpants or we're associates, I'm just so grateful that my first call with you. It was sweatpants. Sweatpants. You made sweatpants category off the top. Listen, I am so, so, so grateful. OK, so I want to ask you about about, you know,

Like right now, as we're talking, 80% of women don't believe they are enough. Yeah. 80% of women don't believe they are enough. And do you believe you're enough? And how? And how can we all? Today I do. Today I do. Yeah. Sometimes I have to fight to remember that I am. If you can ever believe it once, you can find your way back to it again. Yeah.

There are so many messages that tell us we're not enough. Literally, the world's inundated with them. We don't even have to go into our childhood trauma to figure out that we're not enough. It's everywhere. But if you can come to a place where you believe it once, it changes everything. I came to a place of believing I was enough. I was

Embracing myself by saying I'm enough for me. If I'm not enough for anyone else, I'm enough for me.

And I think it was from that space, like, that I realized that I was borrowing God's words to myself. Like, I thought I was just coming up with that for myself, but I realized that there was something in me, the Spirit of God, like, whispering to me the words that God wanted me to receive. And so if you are not enough for yourself to yourself, you will never believe that you are enough for anyone else. Okay.

And part of reclaiming your power, part of that sensitivity to the fluidity of power is reclaiming your enoughness when life tries to strip you from it. Um,

When life tries to pull you from it because of experiences and disappointments and failure, they're whispering something to you. And it is on you to choose to take that whisper as truth or to allow it to just pass over you and allow it to be a fleeting emotion. But.

I understand fully why women are in a position where they don't always believe that they're enough. But I say that there are moments throughout the day that we often let pass us by that remind us that we're enough. And we have to be better catchers of those moments instead of clinging to the ones that make us feel like we're less than. It's so good because we can always find someone out there who does not see our value, who doesn't think we're like it's all.

all around us all day long, or we hang on to past people that said stuff to us. Like, I always expected something like this from you. All those things. And it's like, oh, but it's so different when you're like, well, wait a minute.

do I believe I'm enough for myself? And what does God say about me? Because if you don't believe it, what they say will never be enough. So it'll be, oh, there's only one like, like first there were no likes. Now there's only 10 likes on a post. Like when will it be enough? That's so true. If you don't believe it, you guys hear that? If you don't believe it, it doesn't even matter for the people.

tell you you are. It won't matter. It will be insatiable because the hole is inside. The call is coming from inside the house. And until you believe it, no matter how much someone pours into you, you're just going to be a leaky vessel. You got to patch the hole.

And when you patch the holes, you can't allow someone to just easily take it away from you because you've done the work of really fortifying yourself. So, of course, I have moments where I'm like, OK, maybe that sermon didn't get as many views as the other one. Maybe I need to stop preaching altogether. But that's me allowing my...

my purpose to be about views and algorithms instead of realizing like the whole reason why you're even up there is because God said you are enough. And if you take what God said and say, but what does he say? What do they say? Then I'm taking what has already been endorsed by God and turning it over to man. But no, I'm going to take that back. All right. My mind was slipping. I was tired. I was worried. I was stressed. And I almost let you define me. I almost let you tell me what my worth was. I almost,

Almost let the fact that you left me define whether or not I had value. But I am reclaiming that power. I'm moving it back to my soul where it belongs because this thing started with God and God's going to finish it. And I may be broken right now. I may be in a deficit right now, but God would never leave me broken. My only job is to stay open enough so that he has capacity to move. Yeah.

So two things. I don't think I've ever hit my chair like this during an interview. Girl, you have black church now, Jamie. What are you doing? And also, I'm so focused on you and I see in my peripheral vision, all these people on the set nodding, like into it. Like, this is so good. And I want to call this out because I think this is so important. I love that you're sharing the humanness inside of you, that even somebody who is

I'm just going to say it. Someone who is in a big way, the future of ministry in the world, someone who is the future of ministry, who's getting millions and millions and millions of views when you, when you preach, uh,

to have a human thought like, oh, that one didn't get as many views. Maybe I should just stop preaching altogether. That is what we all think. Like everything in my life right now, for me, worthiness is a daily, it's a daily struggle. It's a daily practice. It's a daily intention of, oh, wait a minute. Am I going to believe God's word, what he says about me or my own self-doubt? You know what I mean? And then for you to even talk about that moment for a minute,

is so powerful because then you talked about how you don't let that moment take you down. For sure. Because that is not the truth. Well, and I think that goes back to like reclaiming the power, right? Because like then I have to play out worst case scenario. Like what if it is declining? What if that moment is over? It was one heck of a ride to see God show up in my life in a way that I never thought was possible.

Like, why am I so hungry for more, more, more? Why can I accept that I'm already further out than God said I ever would be? And yes, I'm going to give it 100%. I'm going to do all the things. I'm going to show up in excellence. I'm going to study. I'm going to do everything to make sure that God doesn't turn his back

on me because I didn't give it 100%. But if I give it 100% and it doesn't fail, it wasn't. And it fails, it wasn't for me. And I got to be okay with that. If the season is over, I got to be okay with that. Because what I want more than anything is to be where God has assigned me. And if it is no longer in this

space. God, what are we doing next? Like, are we serving the unhoused? Are we helping teen moms? Like maybe it has no platform, no makeup, no fashion connected to it. I want to be where God wants me to be. And I have to reclaim that because if I get caught up in popularity, numbers and views, I will think that I have to stay on top. There is no such thing as staying on top. It's only staying connected. And I have to be connected. I, I was nothing. You don't like, I,

I had nothing. Like I had nothing. This wasn't supposed to be my life. And now I can't step into it with this sense of entitlement. Like God needs to do something more. Like God's already done so much for me. If this is it, he did his big one. Like he did his big one.

He can't do anything else for me. My life is about what I can do for him, you know? For the person, I feel like what you just said is such a solution to imposter syndrome. And right now, 75% of women deal with imposter syndrome. For the person who, because everything you've journeyed through and what you're in right now, it would be so easy for someone to say,

oh, I am not worthy of this or whatever. And also something you just said, Sarah, a lot of people think the opposite, like I'm not enough for this, right? They think like, oh, if something's great happening in my life right now, oh, this really healthy relationship just started. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop or I'm somehow gonna not be attracted to that person, put them in the friend zone, I'm gonna sabotage it because I don't think I'm worthy of it. Or imposter syndrome is such a thing where,

I remember I was feeling it one day and I called you. I remember I called you one day and you were like, oh, God would not have you in this room. Yeah. Like if he, you know, all the things. And so can you just share what you just shared again from the perspective of how you, like you just said, I had nothing. Like I had nothing. And...

You are, even with that, you are not doubting yourself out of your own destiny right now. And a lot of us do that. A lot of us doubt ourselves out of our own destiny because we believe we are an imposter in that room or on that stage or in the relationship or in the job or that we don't have what it takes. How have you not doubted yourself out of this? As much as I realized that I had nothing...

You know, probably spent most of my life feeling like there's nothing special about you. There's nothing you can offer the world. Like you're not it. I have taken note of how God has taken nothing and turned it into something. So much so that having nothing doesn't scare me anymore. But I'm not afraid of not having nothing. Because if God just gives me a little something to work with, then he'll multiply it.

Like, I've got enough for God to multiply. I may not have enough for this assignment. This room may be bigger than me. These people may be smarter than me. But I got enough for God to multiply. The only reason why I'm in this room is because I've got enough for God to multiply. And so my only job is not to try and find enough.

My job is to bring enough for God to multiply. And I think that that's what I do. I have not doubted myself out of my position, out of opportunities, because I believe that I have enough for God to multiply. So all I got to do is bring my little. In Woman Evolve, I talk about the little boy who had the two fish and five loaves of bread in scripture. And like he had enough for himself, but I

don't have enough for this demand, but he had enough for God to multiply. If you are willing to God, all to offer God what you have, no matter how little it is, God says, I can take that little and I can multiply it. And Jamie, I have seen it. I am not the girl who packs out stadiums, but I was at Globe Life Field and 40,000 women were there.

I didn't there's the math doesn't math unless you add the God factor in it and the God factor allows it to multiply. And so I'm I be stressed going into it. I'm like, she don't have it. She don't have it. And God's like, just bring me what you have.

If it's mixed in with doubt and faith, that's okay. Bring me what you have. I'll filter it. I'll let the wheat and tare grow together. Just bring me what you have. And if you bring me what you have, that's all I'm asking. I'll clean the fish. I'll break them. I'll bless them. I'll multiply them. Just bring me what you have.

You are not going to want to miss what's coming up in episode two with the amazing Sarah Jakes Roberts. You want me to cry on your show, and that's not nice because I would never do you like that. Everyone is anointed to do something in the earth, whether it's got platform connected to it or not. Anointed to raise a child, anointed to run the cameras, to set up the lighting, to make sure that we get the best so that we can reach God's best.

Everybody is anointed. Oh yeah. Everybody is anointed. These toxic relationships are distractions from discovering what we're anointed to do. For you to say everyone has an anointing on their life, they may not be aware of it, they may not be able to see it. How do they know when they're in it? I'm trying to say the majority of the people listening to this

that are gonna realize right now they're anointed. Yeah. First time ever. First time ever. Yeah. First time ever. Yeah. And that's big. It's an altitude that only you were created to soar in. Does this whole thing feel like so much pressure? And that you have the opportunity to reclaim your power from anything that has left you feeling powerless.

How do you know when God is speaking to you and what does that feel like? For the person who is an atheist and who is like, "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't be that certain about anything. Maybe I'm going to be open."

Maybe I'll try to believe and see what happens. How do you start? If you test God in this, I promise you He'll show up. But you got to be open. Is there anything a person can do to make them disqualified from God's love? At a granular 101 entry level, what is a great way to start to pray? Like, can you break it down?

And there are things that make our prayers more powerful. Is there any wrong way to pray? Sarah! How are you? So good! Who are you? I'm here! You're here? Sarah Jakes Roberts! You have your own sign. What do you say to the person who maybe had a really traumatic experience?

at church growing up or in their past or with someone who was part of faith and they've kind of veered away and maybe haven't thought about veering back until they stumbled upon this episode. What do you say to them?

In your life right now, Sarah, what would you say is your biggest insecurity? There was something about the public validation of my ministry after the public scrutiny of my disappointment and him saying, this is my girl and I trust you. That made me ugly cry for millions of people to see.

I have one more thing to share with you, but before I do, if you got value out of this episode, my only ask is that you please share it.

Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it. Post it and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. And thank you so much for joining me today. And before I go, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true.

You, right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world, and it is an honor to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Here, I hope you'll come as you are.

Heal where you need. Blossom what you choose. Journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You are worthy. You are loved. You are love. I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, How to Believe You Are Enough and Transform Your Life for You. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you.

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Get your copy of Worthy, plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy. Do you struggle with negative self-talk?

Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful. And when you learn to take control over your self-talk, it's life-changing. And I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your life.

It's called Five Ways to Overcome Negative Self-Talk and Build Self-Love. And it's a free how-to guide to overcome that negative self-talk, to build confidence and develop unshakable self-love so that you can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals.

Don't let self-sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life when filled with self-love, resilience, and unwavering belief.

If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com slash resources or click the link in the show notes below.

This show is presented solely for entertainment purposes only. It's not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, professional coach, or other qualified professional. I hope you enjoyed this episode and conversation together, and I am so grateful to be on this journey with you.

And did you know for every episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show, there are a set of special prompt questions just for you to help you on your journey of aha moments and revelations in your own life from each episode.

Make sure you join my free email newsletter at jamiekernlima.com to get them sent to you each week. And each episode is meant to be evergreen and packed with timeless life lessons. So you can go back and listen to past episodes you perhaps haven't heard yet as we are going on this incredible journey of building self-worth and living our best lives together.