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I can see no viable, tangible reason for that home to be destroyed before the trial is complete. Is there an immediacy for a jury going to a house, psychologically speaking? I would say yes. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 2, Episode 2, Murder House.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Gabe Castillo. We were reminded last episode of the details of the grotesque horror that occurred at 1122 King Road on November 13th, 2022, when Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Ethan Chapin, and Zanna Cronodal lost their lives. ♪
After the murders, it was seen by some as a forensic scene, or a tomb, or a macabre reminder of the horrors that happened there. But before all that, the house, located just off campus and on Fraternity Row, was full of life. It was a party house where friends gathered. Here's on-air reporter Anjanette Levy, who has covered the case on the ground since the very beginning. I asked her to describe the house and what it felt like standing in front of it.
This house makes me sad. And it made me sad because it was frozen in time. I'm standing there looking at this window and there's a pair of pink cowboy boots in the window. When I was there in December of 2022 and then returned in early January after the arrest, what made me so sad is there was this string of lights across the back porch and they were on.
They were on, there was a couch out there, like this leather couch. As a mom, I'm like, what are you doing with a couch outside? But you know that you're, they're college kids, you know, it's a college house. And this is a place where, you know, it was a party house, but it was frozen in time in the worst possible way. The lights were on the entire time from the night this happened till I got back in January and the
There's the couch covered in snow. And, you know, you could kind of see into the kitchen. Everything stopped because this awful thing happened at this house that should have just been full of kids and laughter. And if they were going to not be there, it should have been because they were going home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Everything was shattered. That was my impression of it. I have mixed feelings about the demolition of the house. I understand that Ethan Chapin's family supported the demolition of the house because he
It had become this horrible, macabre tourist attraction, which I think is horrific. But at the same time, I would hate for something to come up at the trial where it was needed. So I see both sides of the coin. As Anjanette says, there are two sides to this coin and most people fall strongly on one side or the other.
The family of the only male victim, 20-year-old Ethan Chapin, saying in a statement, "We're supportive of the decision to take down the King Street house for the good of the university, its students, including our own kids, and the community of Moscow." The house was considered the largest piece of evidence that they had. The university defending their decision to move forward. Our understanding is from a legal standpoint, everyone was finished with the house. You kind of want to scream from the mountaintops, just let it be. Leave it alone. Don't touch it until the trial's over.
The house was ultimately demolished on December 28th, 2023. It took one day and occurred 13 months after the murders. Shortly after the demolition, Stephanie has a discussion with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan and data analyst Body Movin. You may remember her from Netflix's Don't Have With Cats.
The particular house that they were murdered in was very specific. It was a unique layout, but the house itself was owned by the campus and highly debated turn of events.
They decided to destroy the house, to get rid of it altogether over winter break. And it's been a really heated discussion. On the one hand, you know that for the university, it's a bit of a real heartbreak on the town, on the school. Also for students who went there who were maybe triggered emotionally by this heinous crime that happened while they were attending school. Just generally speaking, probably just feels hideous to have this marker exist.
And on the flip of that, some of the family members, including some people participating in the trial, say that this is an active investigation site and that from a forensic standpoint, it has to stay intact at least until after the trial. I spend a lot of time on the internet, as you all know. That's what I do. And I talk to a lot of people who live in Moscow, and they are all affected by this house. They have to drive by it. It's in a really dense neighborhood.
The jury is never going to be allowed to go in there. They're never going to be allowed to go in there. There's no the acoustics are different. Flooring's been removed. Walls have been removed. I have photos and you can see all the drywall that's been cut out of Maddie's room. Like they're not going to go in there. It's just not going to happen. It's so uncommon for a jury to visit a crime scene.
So uncommon. But it happens, though. By the way, sidebar, one of the victims has a sister and a brother who do also still attend the university. So if I'm a family member of one of the victims, I want justice. Or if I'm even a family member of the accused and I want justice.
How can we destroy the forensics? Here's my real problem with it, is the fact that there are homicides that take place every single day. There's a homicide going on right now as we speak somewhere in America. I can promise you that. They're not going to go out and tear down that structure. This is an outlier as far as tearing down a structure. It is incredibly rare for a jury to visit the site of a murder. It's also rare for a building where a murder took place to be demolished.
However, the ones that fall into either category are usually multi-victim murders that are exceptionally heinous and highly publicized.
Some cases where the juries did go back to the literal scene of the crime can often include cases where they may hinge on some form of integral spatial logistics. For example, Michael Peterson, where jurors walked the stairs where his wife died, Alex Murdaugh, so jurors could appreciate the scale of the large property, and the 2018 Parkland school shooting, which Joseph tells us about.
I even reflect back to Parkland, which I covered extensively. And look, I understand that the interior of Parkland was not changed at all. One of the most moving moments is where they talk about how when they led the jurors into that structure, remember Parkland had taken place on Valentine's Day. There were dried crumbling roses laying on the floor, teddy bears with hearts on them.
there were still blood stains on the floor. And it too is government controlled. And let's face it, the University of Idaho is a government entity and it is owned by the University of Idaho. Of all the divisive factors in this divisive case, it seems the Holmes demolition drew more opposing opinions than almost anything else. Here's journalist Chris Spargo, who spent a lot of time covering the case.
I started by asking him about the money spent on security of the home leading up to the demolition. It was $700 a day for securing the home alone, clocking in at $1.2 million months before the home was even torn down. Here's Chris.
The brunt of that is really being absorbed by the university. The university has really kind of cost a lot of money for them because of security reasons. You know, obviously when the house, the house was up for so long and that house had to be protected that entire time. People, they had a 24-7 watch. Dealing with this influx of people on campus, you know, safety measures for students. There's not really much you can do to get around those costs. And because it took place
place in a university, there's a lot of costs that come along with that because they want to make sure the students feel safe. They want to make sure the students feel protected. And they also want to make sure that this major piece of evidence, this house, is left untouched when there are thousands of people descending on this town who probably want to do nothing more than to get inside it or take a look around. They have to make sure no one went in that house. So that was a really, really big cost to bear. What are your thoughts on the demolition of the house?
I do not think that the defense or prosecution would be okay with it if they thought there was any possible chance there was even like a little piece of evidence inside there. I think on the most sort of human and basic level, the last thing in the world you want those kids to deal with, which we're already dealing with so much, is to have to see that house. It's probably a horrible reminder.
So for that reason, I'm really glad that it's not there. I don't know how much the scene was going to be helpful in that case. At this point, it seems like they're having trouble even placing him at the scene. So I don't know what was going to be accomplished maybe by having anyone visit the house. But like I said, I think that if there's any sort of bit of evidence that prosecutors thought they could get out of it or bringing people to the house, they would have kept it up. And clearly they didn't think there was that there. The FBI prosecution and defense teams had access to the home on multiple occasions. The prosecutor's last visit was just one week before the demolition.
The president of Idaho University, Scott Green, released a statement on December 14th, 2023. He wrote, Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.
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Stephanie continues her conversation with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan and data analyst Badi Movin.
Once it's gone, it's gone. The most intriguing images that I saw of the entire coverage relative to Idaho was there was a snap moment where you had agents that were back in the brush line, rear of the second floor where the sliders are, and they were squatted in the brush. And they were looking back towards the building.
They were looking for fields of view at that point in time. What could you observe from this low growth scrub that was back there, these trees? Is it a location where the perpetrator could have parked? Is it an observation point where they could have seen people moving around at night? Is it at that key moment that he decided that when those lights went down, that he was going to make us move and make entry into that environment? All reference for that is gone now.
Not to mention a big piece of the defense's case right now is that Brian Koberger claims to have an alibi. Again, we're talking about potentially more than one person being there or a different set of people being there. Were there multiple attackers? Was Brian not even there in the first place?
Why would you destroy something? And I've learned this from you, by the way. The plumbing could have evidence in it. The concrete in and around the location could have evidence in it. Yeah, let me say something about the plumbing real quick. And this brings the car into play. You know, they think they've got the timeline settled here. But let's just say that an individual may have taken time to have gone and cleaned themselves.
Did you take drain traps out? Did they run a camera down in the drain? I think my big thing is, and anybody that's kind of listening to us, our friends out there, if you live in a home that has an internal staircase, what do footfalls sound like on the treads on the interior staircase? Can you hear that? Can you hear somebody wrestling about if you're on the second floor and it's going on the third floor? Can you hear it if you're in the basement? We don't have a point of reference anymore. Still can't take the jury back out there.
You can't have them go into any one of these rooms where these ghastly murders were committed and ask questions. Jury can't ask a question based upon, well, gee, look at that window and how you can see in from there to here. And how far away is the distance from the entrance to the bedroom to the flight stairs down to the second floor? How long would it take me to egress from the third floor to the second floor landing and then down the hallway? You think about the feeling it conjures. You know, we saw that in Pike County.
Stephanie's referencing the murders of eight members of the Roden family that occurred in Pikedon, Ohio. It's the topic of another KT Studios podcast and a case we worked closely on with Joseph.
After the massacres occurred there and right before the trial, the jury was put on a bus and set out to observe the landscape where the homes where those murders happened had occurred. And, you know, we were always told it was extremely powerful. There's nothing like being in the location, especially when it's still furnished. And those personal belongings that have now been removed for sentimental reasons are
they should remain in that crime scene to really make it personal. That's part of it. This is the most personal thing imaginable. Why would you make a game day decision a year before the game by destroying what could potentially be relevant? Doesn't this speak to the original point that the house should not have been destroyed? ♪
This is just my opinion, but these scans are so advanced and so well done. The house is unsafe for people to be in. And I don't know what kind of situation the rooms are in, but I can't imagine they didn't remove pieces of the floor from both bedrooms. It's not safe for this jury to be in. Well, that's what the documents say. The documents say the house is too dangerous. And both the defense and the prosecution agreed that...
This is not a place that they're going to be bringing the jury. I do hope that it was sufficiently documented. I know that they did do pharaoh images within that structure and also externally. We asked Joseph for clarification on what pharaoh images are and how the pharaoh system works.
You first see the earlier iterations of these things when they're referred to as total stations. They were made famous by accident reconstructionists, where you have this one machine that they could essentially plot from a digital standpoint a motor vehicle accident.
because to work a motor vehicle scene is, to say the very least, time-consuming and the calculations are mind-blowing. So they took that platform and expanded it relative to this FARO device, F-A-R-O. But you can take this FARO device and place it at a scene and just imagine it's got the ability to spin on its axis,
thousands of different directions and all of the while it's shooting out these little lasers and it's taking thousands of photos. And so it can digitally take those images and compile them. And it gives you very detailed information. It also has GPS that's in it. You take it into a confined space, like a built dwelling like this. And the detail is wonderful.
very remarkable and you can create this 3D world. It is quite fascinating to see. So that's what a ferro station is essentially.
There's been some talk of some 3D model that may be created by the FBI lab in Quantico and be presented for the court. But I got to tell you, I've been out on a number of visits to homes where homicides have taken place, and I've been there when the juries are there. And it is a real dose of reality for them when they show up.
From an investigative standpoint, if you have it, don't throw it away. I'm not a junk collector personally, but this ain't junk. This is where these lives ended. And just, you know, to piggyback on that, some of the other victims' families were very against it for this very reason. What if there is one little morsel of something that could be
bring justice to them or frankly get a guilty man off there's other cases where they've torn the apartment down like for instance Jeffrey Dahmer however
They waited for the trial. Yeah, that's the rub. You know, so, yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah, I mean, John Wayne Gacy's house is gone. You know, there's nothing. But Pharaoh didn't really exist like it does now back then. That's true. It's a different time. And I would imagine at some point, you know, it's going to be virtual reality, you know, where these juries can put on a headset and walk through the house at their leisure. They can. But, you know, you had mentioned earlier about the acoustics might not be the same. However, people...
People that are impaneled on juries, they're not AI. I mean, they are living, breathing human beings that know what it's like to walk into a house in that sense.
that you get that auditory sense of a footfall, you know, and I know that part of the floor has been removed and all this, but when you think about just the timing element, if I were asked, how long would it take me to make it from the sliders to that weird, that if we, if we, if we just go on a limb here and say, enter through the sliders, how long would it take to make it from there to the interior staircase and twist and turn and get up there?
And also in the darkness. I think about all these in the relationship, spatial relationships and all these sorts of things. And I know Pharaoh is great and it's going to be fantastic. I'm sure the presentation will blow everybody away if we're permitted to see it. But there's still that one little splinter in my brain. The feeling.
I often equate it to like I like to read books like the actual book. I don't want to read it on a Kindle. It's like I like to touch the paper, like to turn the page. It's maybe the same kind of like thing where you're there in person and you can smell and use all your senses to get an idea of what happened. And you're not going to be able to have that with a 3D scan. The draw to the house after the murders is one of the reasons it was demolished.
People were coming from far and wide to view the house, some with the horrible intention of taking a souvenir from the scene. We felt it was something important to try and understand, so we reached out to psychiatrist Dr. Gail Saltz, clinical associate professor of psychiatry at New York Presbyterian Hospital and host of the podcast, How Can I Help? Dr. Saltz had been quoted in an article we found about our culture's obsession with murder houses. ♪
Here's Dr. Saltz with some information about the phenomenon, followed by Stephanie. The house is sort of like the museum of it.
It's easier to imagine being part of it or in it or thinking about it, the horror of it. Much like if you said, here are the clothes of the people or here is the weapon that was used and you can physically look at it and hold it. And of course, homes represent all kinds of things. Homes represent the place where
These people lived and had lives and most people's homes means feeling safe and feeling joy of, you know, whatever it might be, their family, their friends. I mean, in this case, right, their friends being in college, feeling safe.
invincible at that age. And of course, most people are not thinking about you could be a victim in your home. It's like, how do we prevent these kinds of things from happening? Or how do we maintain our own sense of safety when sometimes the perpetrator is so ordinary? Many people have a desire to feel a little scared in a safe way.
And we are naturally curious. The identification is partially with a victim of like how horrible the horror of that is, right? To feel like at that last moment, you know, somebody stabbing me with an eye, you know, like those kinds of thoughts and imagining what's inside that guy's head that he would plot this and plan this and want to do something terrible.
In this Idaho murder case, interestingly, the decision was made, right or wrong, to demolish that house. Do you have an opinion on that? I mean, there are rules and regulations about what can happen with evidence that can't be brought into a courtroom. And that seems like more of a legal question.
To get that legal opinion, I spoke with Kirk Nerby, legal analyst and former defense attorney for Jodi Arias. Jodi Arias was on trial in 2013 for murdering her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander. The trial was televised worldwide and became known as a circus in the press. Here's Kirk.
I can see no viable, tangible reason for that home to be destroyed before the trial is complete. The jury may have questions. Part of the evidence against Mr. Kohlberger is this eyewitness testimony of seeing someone with bushy eyebrows.
There's been talk of hearing footsteps from upper levels, things of that nature. And those could be issues and questions that the jury has in their mind. How could someone see these eyebrows under these circumstances? Could they really hear this? All these different things. And there could be dozens more that I have not thought of. And here you have this piece of evidence that
And it is destroyed for no logical reason. Let's say something came up with the defense case and the defense said, hey, we need to look at this. And that becomes a Sixth Amendment issue. Is Mr. Kohlberger getting a fair trial based on these circumstances? And that could result in a death verdict getting overturned.
But right now, until the case is over, it seems nonsensical, to say the least, to destroy the building. Well, that's a concrete answer. But it seems like the people who might have most wanted it taken down might then impact the victims negatively if, for example, a sentence is overturned because of it.
Yes, we don't know what could pop up, what could be of evidentiary value down the line when things are challenged, when things are questioned. So yeah, to me, it just makes no sense, at least as it relates to the case in general, and could only serve to harm the case. Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment.
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Stephanie and Joseph Scott Morgan discuss how items from the now demolished house might be used during the trial. One other thing that's very compelling about this case is that they hauled off the mattresses in the back of a pickup truck. They can still bring these items into court, and that has occurred. They can actually have been in courts where they set beds up before. Here's the real rub with that. If you're talking about dynamic bloodstains,
You can say, here's the mattress that we recovered. Here's the bed frame that we recovered. We see this deposition of blood on the surface of the mattress. Maybe they hold up a bloody sheet. If that happens, you're going to hear the defense scream from the rooftops over this because they're going to say it's prejudicial. The prosecution is going to have to justify their rationale for bringing each one of these items in there.
And the defense, I guess, could see it as prejudicial. But they could also argue the idea that now that they are absent that, that's something that they can not go back and collect. It's real important that we remember, I think, that they were so eager, they being the investigative authorities, to get this place cleaned out.
that they had called a cleaning crew to come and clean up the structure before, right, it almost happened simultaneously with the arrest of Koberger in Pennsylvania. Joseph is referring to when Brian Koberger's defense attorney, Ann Taylor, filed a court motion to stop the cleanup operation to preserve the scene of the crime. This motion was filed on December 30th, 2022, just hours after Koberger's arrest.
And if I remember correctly, it was his counsel that said, whoa, throw the brakes on. We're going to, we need to get a team out there to take a look. And I'll never forget seeing that image of the plastic that had been taped up over the door so that they could go in and move out and all this stuff. And then there was a controversy of taking out quote unquote personal items and
And, you know, once you've kind of breached, you know, that threshold so quickly in this environment, there's not a damn bit of sentimental pressure.
material that is out there that's worth compromising this. Because yeah, I know that it's ghastly, it's a horrible thing, but life is full of all kinds of horrible things. This, I think, is potentially a diminishment of the memory of these kids that were killed there. But now it's too late at this point. You can't go back and unring the bell. Stephanie continues her conversation with psychiatrist Dr. Gail Saltz on how a jury might be impacted by the Holmes demolition.
Here's Dr. Saltz. Is there an immediacy for a jury going to a house, psychologically speaking?
I would say yes, that it's going to stir their thoughts in a more emotionally galvanizing way and that that will draw them in. But it doesn't tell you whether it will draw them in and make them say guilty or innocent. And now where I think it could affect them is if they are convinced that
that this person is the perpetrator and they are brought into a circumstance that makes them feel more emotionally distraught, I think that could affect a sentencing, a sentencing like death, no death. And this is why prosecutors bring in photos and movies and voice recordings because, you know, they are trying to not only deliver content,
but they are trying to deliver more immediacy, deliver more empathy to a jury and have them feel more intensely and stronger about what's happening. I think being in a house certainly could add to that. It's not the only thing that could add to that. I think there was a point made that the house didn't look at all inside anymore the way that it looked. And so it's
That could have the opposite effect, right? They could go in expecting to see something that looks like college students are living there and see none of that, see a sterile space. And that could have the effect of making them feel like what was so bad, you know, what was so terrible. So it's hard to predict.
whether that would be helpful or harmful. I hadn't thought of it that way. True, the disassociation from what is now a different space is a really good point. What I would say is virtual is always one step removed from being in person. You know, I think courts have discovered that
putting things in a video format absolutely makes an impact. Is it eked out by the idea that you're coming out of the courtroom and into this space and you know that you're standing on the spot where this thing happened? I think that has a more emotional impact. Is it necessary if you have the video? Might the video of what the inside looked like at the time that it actually looked that way, which was at the time of the crime,
more impact than the physical plant that doesn't look any more like it did at the time of the crime? It might. Next time on The Idaho Masker, an exclusive interview with Cassie, a former student of accused murderer Brian Koburgers. She is speaking out for the first time. What was the class about? We covered literally how to get away with murder.
Did he have any friends? Not that I saw, but kept to himself anytime I saw him on campus or in class or office hours. So this man potentially murdered four people and then he went back to class? Yes.
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidegger, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
MITRE's mission is to solve problems for a safer world. If you have a passion for applied cybersecurity with skills in infrastructure threat intelligence, deterrence technologies, advisal threat emulation, or intelligence analysis, explore the many challenging and fulfilling career opportunities at MITRE.org slash careers. That's M-I-T-R-E dot org slash careers. At Amica Insurance...
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