Team-Centric Growth: Prioritizing People and Culture for Business Success
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So once you gain financial clarity, it's not just because you have the clarity doesn't mean it's going to solve the problem was the first lesson. Once you have all the financial clarity is going to do is tell you where you need to focus your time and attention, what you're doing well, what you're not doing well. And, you know, when we were building it, I was like, OK, well, you know, once we have the financial data, I'm going to look at it and then everything's going to be great. And obviously that's not the case.

The purpose of it is to tell a story on what you need to focus on. So that was the first thing. But I think for most businesses that aren't doing that, and they're not focused on KPIs, and they haven't dialed in their top five KPIs that they look at,

to really drive business decisions, you're really shooting in the dark and you're gambling every single day. And you shouldn't be doing that for your team. You owe it to your team to have clear financial understanding of your business. They're counting on you to be making decisions based on those numbers because everyone's jobs and livelihood depend on that. And if you don't have that clarity, you are putting your team at risk.

And so it's your job as a leader to, if you don't have those things yet, you have to, you know, either make the right hire, like you're saying, hire somebody who's smarter than you that understands how to get you that clarity.

but it has to be done for your business to grow. Welcome to the Home Service Expert, where each week, Tommy chats with world-class entrepreneurs and experts in various fields, like marketing, sales, hiring, and leadership, to find out what's really behind their success in business. Now, your host, the home service millionaire, Tommy Mello.

Before we get started, I wanted to share two important things with you. First, I want you to implement what you learned today. To do that, you'll have to take a lot of notes, but I also want you to fully concentrate on the interview. So I asked the team to take notes for you. Just text NOTES to 888-526-1299. That's 888-526-1299.

1-299 and you'll receive a link to download the notes from today's episode. Also, if you haven't got your copy of my newest book, Elevate, please go check it out. I'll share with you how I attracted and developed a winning team that helped me build a $200 million company in 22 states. Just go to elevateandwin.com forward slash podcast to get your copy. Now let's go back into the interview.

Hey guys, welcome back to the Home Service Expert Podcast. Today I got Josh Yergey joining me, who's a legend in the roofing space. He's an expert in sales, roofing, entrepreneurship, leadership, and team building. He's based out of Fairfax, Virginia. His company is Smart Roof Incorporated. He's the founder and CEO. He started this in 2015.

Josh Yerge is the founder and CEO of Smart Roof, a residential and commercial roofing company. Over the last five years, Josh has built Smart Roof into a company that provides outstanding roofing services to thousands of customers on the East Coast. His approach to business has led the company to faster than his initial expectations, making over $30 million in sales. And it's a pleasure to have you on today, Josh.

I'm excited to be here, brother. We need to update those numbers. Last year, we did over 100 million, so not quite where you're at yet, but we're going to get there, man. 100 million in one year. That's who I want on the podcast. What I like about your expertise is team building because you're only as strong as your weakest link, and I believe that more than ever now. Your marketing department, your call center, your dispatchers, your ability to influence people.

your ability to market to the affluent. And I'm proud to say I'm one of the dumbest guys on my team. And I'm pretty good at speaking. I'm getting better. I've got several coaches, but I want to be the weakest link in my team. And I'm growing exponentially. I've got a lot of coaches that work with me. And I just invested 300 grand into one for the year. Not the guy I was talking about, but another guy, but 300 grand for one person. So that's money you'll ever spend, man.

Yeah. Well, I want to hear your story to build this. You started in 2015, eight years, you're at $100 million of revenue. And it's an incredible story. So let's walk through what caused you to get into roofing, what were some of the pitfalls, where are you taking the company? Let's hear the story. Yeah, let's get started. Real quick, I want to say that

Your podcast, brother, there are so many podcasts out there, but the value that you bring to your listeners, if people are listening and implementing this stuff, it's going to change their life. So if that's your mission, you're 100% hitting that mark every single week. So thank you for everything that you're doing for the blue collar community as a whole. So my story goes back to my very, very early days.

My father was an entrepreneur. He owned a shoe repair store right around the time when people stopped repairing their shoes and started buying new pair.

And so we were always pretty poor growing up. It was me, my mom, and I have four brothers. There's seven of us living in a two bedroom condo and things were always really, really tight. But that didn't stop me as a kid for asking my dad for the best, right? You got to push him. And like when I was five, six years old, it was always, dad, can we go to the store and get some Legos? Dad, can we go to the store and get some Legos?

And he would always tell me, no, son, we can't afford that. But what he did do a great job of was instilling in me the entrepreneurial spirit. And so he wouldn't just go out and he couldn't afford to buy me these things, but he would always challenge me, ask me, like, how can you, how can you afford this? And he would ask me even at, you know, five, six, seven years old, like, why don't you go knock on the neighbor's doors and mow the lawns?

And I never acted on that. But eventually what he did was take me and my four brothers to a local orchard. And we went picking peaches, paid about 25 cents a pound. And then there was a small farmer's market behind his shoe repair store. And so me and all my little brothers stood there and we sold our peaches for like four dollars a pound.

And we had all this money. We felt like it was millions of dollars at a time. And we went, you know, he took us to the store afterward and we bought, you know, the toys that we wanted. And at a very, very young age, it taught me that just because I can't get what I want right now doesn't mean I can't figure out how to get it. And that carried through the rest of my life. I fell in love with sports as I was growing up and I wanted to become a professional soccer player. I put the time and investment in, but my parents couldn't afford to put

put me through travel the travel teams i wanted to play for same thing i went down to local golf course got a job washing golf carts and i paid to play on the travel soccer teams

Fast forward to college, I ended up getting a scholarship to play soccer in college. And I was still a broke student. And what I would do is I would go and buy the textbooks from my friends. And then I would add a low number. And then I would take those and I would sell them back to the bookstore. So the bookstore would buy back all the used textbooks at the end of every semester.

And then graduating college, I realized that, hey, like a nine to five job is not going to get me out of my parents' house. And it's not going to get me to pay back all these student loans. So I started looking for work and I found a job in roofing sales. The ad was like, make six figures selling roofs.

Um, and so I did that for almost five years, got really, really good at it. And toward the end of my career there, uh, the company did really, really well. I got really big and I felt like I kind of got lost in the shuffle. I stopped believing what they were doing. Cause I felt like a number. It just felt like they didn't see me. I didn't have really have any opportunity. And so, uh,

I got to the point where I stopped believing in the product. And if you're a salesperson and you don't believe in your product, you have to figure that out. You have to talk to somebody, you got to get a coach, you got to find a new product because you have to believe in that product. And I didn't. And my sales tanked and ended up to the point where I basically had a negative bank account balance. So I left to start and I was like, well, the idea of going and working for another company sounds terrible. I've hated everywhere that I've ever worked. It's just

pretty miserable. And I was like, you know what? I looked at my finances and I was like, yeah, I have nothing right now. And I have all these student loans I need to pay back, but I'm not married. I'm single. I have nothing to lose and I can't hurt anybody except for myself. So let me try this on my own.

And I've set out to sell roofs on my own. And I just reinvested in my... I went and slowly started to build a team, recruited my best friend to come work for me. We slowly started to recruit more friends and more family and that snowballed. And the idea was like, let's build a workplace that doesn't suck, right? Like let's build a place that's really amazing where everyone can feel like they have an opportunity to grow in the business.

And I think that we've done that. I think that's what's contributed to our growth along with some other things. And I'm really proud to say that, you know, I went from having a negative bank account balance to, you know, we were ranked last year as the 20th largest roofing contractor in America.

And what I hope it does is it shows people like what I hope that story is. It shows people it doesn't matter where you're at. It doesn't matter how old you are. As long as you have a will and a desire to find a way, you can find the way as long as you follow the principles of success. That's a great story, Josh. And it is something to aspire to. You know, $100 million is no joke. And what I like the most about that story, a couple of things. Number one is you came from nothing.

And I think when you hit rock bottom, you weren't given a silver or gold spoon. And you kind of know what it's like to live a life that you just don't have the money. And I lived the same life. I mean, literally at the end of the day, if I didn't learn a way to perform and make my own money, I wouldn't have anything. And I don't think a lot of people really understand what that's like. But when you're able to do it and start from scratch and build something special, it's going to...

plant seeds that are going to last generations. And the other thing I like is that you believe in your product and everybody's got a say. And it's not easy to work with family and friends. I'll tell you, I've had to fire a lot of family and a lot of friends. And sometimes the people that bring you to this level can't bring you to that next level. And it's really sad because they're not investing any money in themselves. And the most people I see fail, Josh, is because they live this lifestyle

That's at that $5 million business. And they go, I'm bringing home, you know, 400 grand. We're going to move into a nicer house because they're going to get nicer. Everything that we didn't have, we're going to buy the nice car. And every time that you make an extra 200 grand, you pay yourself a hundred of it. And the company can never get ahead. You're never reinvesting in yourself. You're living a lifestyle. You're keeping up with the Joneses. You're finally having the things you never had because you say you deserve it.

When the fact is the company needs some money, they need the money. The company needs that money more than you do. It needs the money to get the resources you need to grow. There's no way you didn't reinvest that money to go at the rate you went. I mean, in eight years to be at $100 million. It must have took a lot of sacrifice and a lot of discipline. Yeah, I didn't really pay myself anything for the first four years.

I just had this vision for, I think we could build something truly special and amazing, and it's going to require a lot of reinvestment into the business. And so looking at one of the things I think we did really well that a lot of companies in the blue collars industries don't do well.

is having financials to be able to look at and say, what can I, the minimum that I could possibly pay myself for the foreseeable future so we can reinvest in the company and really build this thing? And I think that that's one of the things that

or separate us and helped us in the very beginning. 'Cause I think a lot of blue collar guys, like they don't know, man. Like they have like a bank account and you know, they like know that money's coming in and they know money's going out. And as long as there's enough money in there to, you know, cover their bills and pay their subs, like they're good. And they never actually understand if they're turning a profit or not.

And so I think one of the things that really helped us in the beginning was getting those clear financials pretty fast after starting and gaining an understanding of that and really understanding what is the minimum I can pay myself and continue to reinvest in the company. I know you probably have seen that with all the people that you talk to. You're a different level now, but when you first started. Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, look, at the end of the day,

I lived in an apartment. I owned the apartment complex, but it was very, very cheap. I made it a nice apartment. I put a fake fireplace, you know, one of those fireplaces that turn on and then, you know, and I put a little sky roof in there. I mean, you're talking about it was gentrification going on and I drove a 10-year-old truck with a salvage title. I didn't really care. The possessions never...

I wasn't keeping up with the Jones. I didn't care because when you come from nothing, no one really is like, I don't really care. F you. I don't care. Like you don't judge me by possessions. Right. You can judge me by my heart and the way I show up for my people. You know, if you keep putting your eggs into one basket, it overflows. And there's so many great things. And my always view was how can I'm not buying a new truck till every technician has a new truck in the fleet. And that's what I did.

And people would laugh at me. They're like, oh yeah, Mr. Successful, you got a 10 year old Titan. I'm like, yeah, I do. And I don't really care because I stopped caring about what people thought about me. Very few people could do that. They say they do. Of course, it's cliche. I don't care what people say about me, but then they, you know, I just, I do care when they attack my company on Facebook and say, you guys charge too much because it does bother me because they don't know how much I invest into the people.

Right. So I think that, that it doesn't bother me if you say something about me, but when you talk about the company and the livelihood of people and there's other possible clients reading that I'm going to defend who we are. And I think everybody knows that, you know, this draft is our animal. You stick your neck out for the company. You got a big heart and you're willing to stand tall. And I live by those. It's our kind of team creed. I think what you said there is so important, man. Like the, the,

the focus has to be on putting the team first. Your business is never going to grow. The business is just a collection of people. I don't know about your business, but in ours, we don't have any products that are necessarily proprietary to us. The only thing that separates us from the rest of the industry is our people. And if you're not putting them first, the business is never going to grow. I think that really stunts growth for a lot of people where they put profits first or they put

you know, like you said, their own personal bank account first. And it really, really stunts, stunts their growth. And if you could flip that to like, how can I put myself in the shoes of my team? Like if they see me, if they're driving around these old rowdy trucks and they see me pull up in this brand new Titan, like what are they going to think?

And how is that going to impact the rest of the business? And what are the conversations they're going to have about me when I'm not there if I do things like that? And all those little things added up can really hurt your growth potential and your ability to retain people as well, which is the most important thing that you have. It's the biggest asset you have is your people. Marcus Limonis in the show, The Profit, he says, people, product, process. And what I did is

I figured out what the cycle life of a spring was. And I figured out the top company in the industry. They carried 25,000 cycles when the average person's a 10,000 cycle. And I said, I don't know how I picked this number, but I said, F it. How do I, can I make an 80,000 cycle spring and powder coat it? And then I trademarked max life. Other people could,

Get a spring like that, but it's max life. And then I found the best rollers from another distributor. 100,000 cycle double Z bearing rollers, self-lubricating, and I lifetime warranty them. And so I started to pull every part. They have an 18 gauge hinge and a 14 gauge. I said, well, let me look in the commercial. Do they make a 11 gauge, which is thicker?

And that's what I carried. And we just show and tell. So I think about the parts and then I think about the people and I hire people smarter than me. And then I think about the process and the process, if the process, if something's going wrong, the process is typically broken. There's only three things that process fails. There's no process, the wrong process, the process isn't being followed. And when you really understand those things and you live by them. And then another thing I do is I don't necessarily get mad about the bottom performers, right?

I really praise the top ones. And I think that that's something that changes the whole culture is we really, when you want your dog, and this sounds really bad, but you could use this on any animal, including human beings, including kids, employees, if you're in a relationship. But what if you just really focused on, you give a dog a treat every time they go potty outside. That's how you train them. I mean, I've been through dog training.

And oh my gosh, it works. Wait a minute. When there's great behavior, you do great, great award systems instead of punishment. Punishment does not go near as far. If you want to train anybody, you reward them on the good things they do instead of always being negative about the bad stuff. And most owners, founders, visionaries, leaders of a company, they have a hard time doing that. It's always slap the wrist, slap the wrist.

negative, negative, negative, negative. And it's like you build that culture and people are afraid to even talk. They're afraid to have ideas. They're afraid to have a vision or a dream. And man, that has to change quickly. And there's so many companies that do that. They just constantly reprimand their people. They say, we can do better. We're not going to hit our goal. What are we doing? And they're yelling and they're screaming and they never look in the mirror. And my God,

I can never work for somebody like that. I would work for me. I would. I really could say that now. I don't think seven years ago I'd want to work for me. But because I used to put everybody, I used to make everybody write their numbers and said, these are the losers this week. And these are the winners in the company. And man, I had a lot of guys woke up to me in the last two years and say, man, I never wanted to be in that loser side again. And it worked. Probably wasn't the right thing to do. Yeah. I've definitely gone through phases as well where, you know,

You are more negative than you should be. But if you're self-aware enough, you should realize pretty quickly that's not effective. Right. What you want, the reason you're being negative is because you want to win. Right. Like all you want to do, Tommy, is win. I want to win. And it's coming from a place and a desire of winning. But there's very few people in the world where if you come down on them and tell them all things that they're doing wrong,

are going to suddenly change and become a different person and all of a sudden get the results that you want. And you gain far more by praising the things that they are doing right and then praising the people around them that are doing the right things. And that is what builds momentum in the business, especially in sales forces, to get that culture that you're looking for where everyone's focused on winning and positivity. And we can do this together, not the boss is mad at us. We got to do better.

You know, every I've been on a lot of sports teams and the best ones I've ever been on the locker room on those teams was one of how are we going to win? We got this. This is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to win. And the worst teams I've ever been on are the coaches in the locker room screaming at everybody, telling them to step their game up. You know, you got to do better. You got to do this. You got to do that. Those were always the losing teams.

And I think that that translates really well to, especially Salesforce, but business as a whole. You know, I'm obsessed with KPIs, probably to a degree where it's overwhelming. And KPIs are my financial statements. And you said something, and they come out of my CRM, which is service titan. You said something very intriguing to me that creates, provokes thought.

is that you had to get good at your financials. And you said most, and a lot of small businesses go, there's money in the account, I'm good. I can make payroll. We could continue to market and we'll see where we end up at the end of the year. It's not intentional. It's kind of like they're standing by waiting. We keep doing the same things and we expect a different result. And when you started getting great at financials, what are some of the things you realized? What did you look for? What were some of the aha moments?

So once you gain financial clarity, it's not just because you have the clarity doesn't mean it's going to solve the problem was the first lesson. Once you have all the financial clarity is going to do is tell you where you need to focus your time and attention, what you're doing well, what you're not doing well. And, you know, when we were building it, I was like, OK, well, you know, once we have the financial data, I'm going to look at it and then everything's going to be great. And obviously that's not the case.

The purpose of it is to tell a story on what you need to focus on. So that was the first thing. But I think for most businesses that aren't doing that, and they're not focused on KPIs, and they haven't dialed in their top five KPIs that they look at,

to really drive business decisions, you're really shooting in the dark and you're gambling every single day. And you shouldn't be doing that for your team. You owe it to your team to have clear financial understanding of your business. They're counting on you to be making decisions based on those numbers because everyone's jobs and livelihood depend on that. And if you don't have that clarity, you are putting your team at risk.

And so it's your job as a leader to, if you don't have those things yet, you have to, you know, either make the right hire, like you're saying, hire somebody who's smarter than you that understands how to get you that clarity. But it has to be done for your business to grow. And here's one thing I'll add to that, Josh, is everybody says, I know I need to learn financials. I know I need to learn KPIs and I know I need to learn how to train the best guys. And I know I need to recruit the best and I know I need to set up the CRM. But the fact is,

If you think you're going to take on every single project in the company and be great at it. And when you're small, you wear a lot of hats. There's, you don't have the money to hire and you're just going to learn how to, you got to learn to adapt and get the best you could get. But,

You should be thinking, everybody that's listening right now should be thinking about who are my next top three hires? Where am I lacking efficiency? Where am I lacking understanding? And the CFO is one of the most important roles because they'll renegotiate your contracts with you. They'll negotiate your vendors. They'll help you with taxes. They'll get you from 30 days net on your accounts payable to 90 days net, which was more cash in the bank that is making you more money. They'll help you understand all the tax accelerated depreciation, rent or buy trucks.

what performers you need to pay attention to, what are the KPIs driving certain things, help you build economic forecasts, all these things that really no small businesses that I know in the home service space are, I won't say no business because there's a lot of guys I know like you that are doing over 100 million that actually understand these principles, but they know their numbers. They know their accounts receivable. They know good debt, bad debt. They understand all these things. And they got people, the team,

You know, I always say this. Andrew Carnegie said, take away everything I own. Take away everything. Leave me with my core team. I'll have it back in three years. And I believe that. And so many people, they have such a hard time. I'll go back to this. You said one of your expertise is team building, building your team. How are you able to do that and get the people that are so great on your team?

Yeah, I think that starts with vision, brother. As the CEO, it's your job to set the direction for the company, right? And you have to have a vision that is so big that everyone's dreams can fit inside of it. And then you have to find out what are their dreams? What are their aspirations? What are they hoping to accomplish personally?

personally and professionally? And then how do you align your business with those dreams, right? And then how do you actually execute in a way that helps them bring those things to life? And when you can do that, from me to you, that is going to be begging to work for you have your pick of talent, right? And if you can't do that, then everyone's going to wonder, like, why should I work here? Why should I be a part of Tommy's team? Or why should I be a part of Josh's team?

If there's no vision and direction, then you're going to struggle to recruit top talent. And so what is the vision for the company? And is it big enough to fit the dreams of top talent, high caliber individuals into that vision? If you can do that, then it's easy. It's not hard. You're going to have people begging to work for you.

But if you're, if you don't have the ability to set that direction or the vision is too small, or you don't really plan on growing, it's going to be tough to recruit an ambitious person who is, you know, like you're saying more talented than you are. Why would they come work for you? Why don't they just go work for themselves or work for somebody else who has a bigger, better vision, right? And so for me, for us, for our business, it's always been about what is the vision and how can we align everyone's dreams underneath of that, right? Where everybody can win.

And it's hard because a lot of people don't have the money today to invest 380 grand into a CFO, plus give them equity of the company, plus give a performance bonus. I mean, I'll say you evolve and what you need to get to 10 million is completely different. And I hate to say this, but.

If you're not constantly thinking about top grading, you're going to keep where you're at. I mean, you shouldn't, no one should ever feel like they're about to get fired, but they should be. My VP of marketing just went to New York to speak at an event. And also he absorbed a lot. He went and met the head of TikTok and home service, TikTok. And he's like, we got a lot of opportunity here and he's bringing me stuff every day. And he's learning as he's, I got three books I ordered for my top leadership team this week alone.

Nice. That I personally read and that I'm going to have them read. And I'm investing in their learning. And if they're willing to learn and grow with me, they're going to be fine. But unfortunately, not everybody is at the level that I want, the pace I'm going. I mean, like I said, I'm investing in myself tremendous amounts of money, tremendous amount of time. And it's going to be very, very hard for people to keep up. And that's okay. There might still be a seat on the bus for them, but it might not be in their current role. So-

Right. One of the things that I still really struggle with, man, because I'm as obsessed as you are over personal growth and development and business to me is like the platform to see like what is possible. What am I capable of as a human being? Like what is the maximum that I can accomplish?

What is possible? How far can I push myself? What can I learn? Who can I meet? What strategies can I deploy? Like what opportunities are out there? And, you know, really trying, doing your best tool to pick and choose those things and align them with becoming the highest and best version of yourself. And if you're the only person in your organization doing that, like you're saying you went out and bought three books and you have your team reading them, like,

someone's got to be setting the bar and like challenging everyone to keep pushing themselves. And if they can't get on board with that, then like you said, you know, maybe it's not the best fit for them. Maybe it's they should find some place that's not focused on growth, both personally, professionally and as a business, someone who's happy staying stagnant. Maybe that's a better fit for them. But if they're going to be part of Tommy's team, they're going to be a part of my team.

they have to be committed to growing personally because the business can only go as far as it can only grow as much as the people inside of it are growing. Right. And if at any point we stay stagnant, the business becomes stagnant. And I've, I've struggled with that too, man. Like it's, it's tough to get people that like you get to a certain level and like they're not really interested in developing any further. And like you said that those are tough calls to make when you find out that you're not in alignment about where you both want to go.

I had Ben Hardy, Dr. Ben Hardy at the event last week, and he wrote a lot of great books, but I bought a book for my team. One of the books was Who Not How. It's a great book. And I truly believe Jim Collins said it the best and good to great, or it might've been built to last. Get the right people on the bus and you'll, you get the right people. You'll, you'll kind of evolve in your vision of where it needs to go. And you got to have input and you got to let other people make decisions. And I think it's really hard for an entrepreneur to,

To let people make decisions. It's like, wait a minute. That's not my project. Why are you doing that? That's not where I want to go.

And if you hire smart people that are smarter than you, you've got to trust them and they're going to fall down. You know, when you, when you first started riding a bike, I guarantee your kids took it. Your parents took out the training wheels. I bet you, you fell a couple of times and hopefully you had elbow pads. And I remember the first day they took, I remember vividly the first day in my cul-de-sac when my parents took out the training wheels and I fell a lot and I was pretty bruised up, but man, I started riding on myself. Um,

And after like the second day, I never fell. Well, a couple of times I made a few mistakes trying to get tricky. But the point is people are going to fall and you got to be okay with that because people learn by falling down and getting back up. And we got to remember that as leaders. And every time someone falls, you can't criticize them. Literally, I was talking to our investors yesterday and they said, Tommy, you're the CEO. You're going to make every decision, even if it opposes us. Not a lot of PE guys say that.

And they said, if you fall, we got your back. And we're okay with that. It's very few and far between the people that'll say that. I got lucky. I picked the right team to be behind me. And they're behind me and I'm behind them. And, you know, it's interesting because...

I don't mind when someone makes a mistake. I really don't. And I say, do you have conviction in this decision? You've studied it more than I have. I'm going to run with you on it. We just sponsored the Las Vegas Knights, 350 grand a year. Oh yeah, that's awesome. My VP of marketing says, I want to get behind this thing. I said, you're not just looking for free tickets, are you? And he says, no, this is going to be a game changer. I said, then let's do it, man. I said, that's 1%.

Of our marketing budget in that market. You feel strongly about it? He said, yes. I said, then let's go, man. Like, I got your back. And guess what? If it proves itself, we'll sponsor every freaking hockey team in the city we're in or baseball team. But if we don't, it's okay. But show me the plan. Let's execute. And if it fails, it fails. But...

It's something that I think a lot of people are afraid of. We had an atmosphere years and years ago that if you brought up an idea and it didn't work, you were like outcasted. It was like you were put in the penalty box and that's just not a way to run a company. Yeah. Yeah. And what's so cool is like, I still have moments like that, but I'm aware of it and I'm focused on getting better. And how can I find guys who

like you or that can help me correct those things because that's not the right way to operate. I'm aware of that and that's not my default mode.

Like you're saying, as a CEO, you're still going to make mistakes. You're still going to fall on your face. And the important thing is that you got a team behind you that will support you no matter what. But that has to be reciprocated. Like you have to support them as well. If you're going to let them make the call, you have to support them. And I think where people struggle with growth, like to your point, the smaller companies or the companies that become stagnant is they have a really hard time letting go of the reins. They're really hard time taking the training wheels off and they become a bottleneck for their business.

And, you know, they're wondering, why can't I do this? Why? Why aren't things working out? Why am I not growing? Why is the industry growing and I'm not? And, you know, they don't realize that it's them. And I think that's why it's so powerful. Like you having podcasts like this where you have these conversations. I mean, somebody's business is going to change just from, you know, you talking about that. It's awesome, man.

Well, I think about, you know, what's in it for me. You know, people always ask, why do you do this podcast? And I get more nourishment from this podcast than most people probably listening. And this has helped me evolve as a leader and as a person and as my relationships. And the Lord knows I need a lot of help. But from where I started, from where I'm at, I've grown a lot. But, you know, I get up on stage and I say, I'm the biggest failure in this room. I've fallen down more than anybody. I mean, I've made mistakes.

That are catastrophic. Like bad ones that I barely come back from. But it really made me stronger because it didn't kill me. And I think...

I beat my chest and say, I love failing because I get back up, man. And I'm not going to make that same mistake twice. And I've learned the hard knocks. I used to hate it when my dad said, if I knew at your age, what I know now. And I'm like, so just go ahead and tell me. He's like, my dad goes, there's so many things. Number one is, you know, with this, when I was in high school, I'd go up to every girl. Cause I'd be confident because rejection is not a bad thing. It just, maybe they're not ready yet. Like,

And I just didn't have the self-confidence in myself back then. Now I do. And now I'm like, man, I'd be a wrecking ball. And it wasn't about picking up girls. It's just everything I do is like, who cares if you fall down? You get back up. You know, I got metaphorically bruises all over from all the mistakes. And I'll always remember, I'll look down and I'll say, yeah, that I remember that. That'll never happen again. And I'll tell you what, you can't buy experience. And it makes a big difference. And one of the things I really wanted to ask you is,

You talk a lot about sales. Sales is the lifeblood of any company. Seeing that you're at $100 million in sales, the proof's right there. And I do believe marketing is more important than sales. I really do. Because I attract affluent clients that spend a lot of money and I market to the right people. And it's a lot easier to sell to somebody that wants to be sold than it is to go to a house that's

Just because they own a garage door doesn't mean they're my client. I understand that. But talk to me a little bit about sales because...

What's a common mistake that most entrepreneurs make? Because I think, frankly, it's that they don't deliver a service that they deserve to charge a premium price for. That's a big one that I see every day. And everybody says, raise your prices. I'm like, don't raise your prices for your shitty ass service. You guys show up in a shitty truck. You look like crap. Nobody believes in themselves. You don't train anybody. You recruit B players that want to make 65 grand a year at the very max. Do not charge a premium price because you're ordinary at best.

But what do you think people, most entrepreneurs and most business owners do when it comes to sales that is a big mistake? I think what you hit on is a big one, right? Where they are afraid to charge a premium. And you're 100% right. If you have a bad product, you need to fix that product first. But once you have a good product, it shouldn't be a race to the bottom, right? It's not about how can I cut my prices. It's about how can I stack value for my customer, right?

Right. And people I think there's a misconception that people want the cheapest thing. Some people want the cheapest thing, but most people just want to know that your values align with theirs. You see them as a human being and you're going to solve their problem. Right. You're listening to what their problem actually is and you're going to solve it and they will pay a premium for that.

If you can't do that, if you can't solve their problem, if you can't align with their values, if you're an amateur salesperson or an amateur company, then yeah, you do need to charge the lowest price. And unfortunately, you probably aren't going to make it very long in business. I think the other thing that companies do, at least on the roofing side of things, is that they have what's really, really detrimental to sales forces is when you have salespeople doing things that are not sales related.

Right. And in the roofing space, it's very, very common where the guy that sells the roof is the guy that estimates the roof is the guy that builds the roof is the guy that collects the roof. And that will crush productivity. And so I think one of the things that we've done an amazing job of as a business and has really allowed us to scale fast is take everything we possibly can off of the salesperson's plate except the sale.

And when you can do that, you can systemize and create a sales system that most people can follow as long as they can complete the training and you can scale in mass. I mean, we have on average 12 to 15 new people start in each of our locations every single month because we've got a systemized sales training that is not five.

500 things that they need to learn because they have to do the entire build and project management of the job, which sounds crazy, I'm sure to you, but in roofing is not that uncommon, especially for the little guys. And so we focus on taking everything off their plate except for the sale. And for us, marketing is part of sales. Marketing is the first step of the funnel. So that has to happen before you can have any sales.

And all of our guys are self-gen, hardcore, door-to-door salespeople. And so by freeing their time, we're accelerating marketing and sales. And it sounds crazy, but in the roofing space, the little guys or the average companies have their salespeople doing all kinds of crazy stuff. No, it doesn't. That's why I have product specialists that they only sell doors and they work virtually. And they got three monitors. I took my best guys out of the field and they're my closers.

And people are like, how's that even possible? And I'm like, but if the technician doesn't do his job to turn it over properly, there's no chance. I mean, 90% of the sales done with the way the technician sets it up. And then my guys are just order takers, but they're very good order takers. And they come from a point of they are higher up in the company. So I'm going to call my boss, the guy that knows more about doors than anybody.

And we'll see what we can do for you. He knows what's in stock. He could build a door on the house. He could give you some promotions we got. And when it's done properly, you're printing money. And most people, you're right. They have them doing all these other things that it's not letting them focus and become an expert at one thing. And I don't want a lot of people that are jack of all trades, a master of none. I wanted to ask you, and I'm going back to what you said, who does, what homeowner do you know that

Give me a circumstance where they want the cheapest thing. Because I was a homeowner that got the cheapest roof and it leaked two years later. So most homeowners that buy a house, they know the cheapest thing. I mean, I have the latest droid. I actually have an iPhone 14 Ultra or whatever it's called right here pointing at me as well. I buy nice clothes. All these are Travis Matthews shirts that I'm wearing because they fit better.

I very rarely have thought of a circumstance where as a consumer, you know, the same people that say they want the best price have Jordans on. So if you really look at your clientele and you could relate to them, let me do you a favor, Josh. I'm going to take off my work badge here. I'm going to talk to you like a man. I'm going to talk to you about your roof and what I would do. And I'll tell you what, here's what you need to do. Obviously, here's what you should do. And if you were my mom and I love my mom, I would give my heart.

I would give my kidneys, both of them. I'd give my liver to my mother. She worked her ass off. She taught me what it was to believe in something, which was me. And this is what I'd be telling my mom. And I love my mom. And I have a lot of conviction when I say that. And people will follow me. The clients will go along with me because they know I believe. Like you said, you stop believing in your product and I believe in what I do. And I'm the very best that you can be at what I do in the garage. I'm a certified badass. I tell customers that.

When I was in the field, customers would go, do you own the company? And I get a lot of my texts now that say the same thing. Are you the owner? Is that you on the side of the truck? Because it's a caricature. But when have you really decided, you know what, honey, let's call the plumber. Let's get the cheapest effing thing we could buy. Never once after I became an educated homeowner. Now, yes, there's a lot of people living on the streets out there, a lot of homeless people that will always buy the cheapest crack that you get. Yeah. But.

If you're marketing to the affluent and you're really get control over your marketing, when is a time that people are like, I mean, I doubt you're going into the $80,000 houses door knocking. I doubt you're going to the trailer home knocking on trailers. You're probably going into nice areas, not super nice where it's like crazy. You probably figured out your avatar and that's what you stick to. But I can't think of anybody that says, yeah, I only buy the cheapest except for the losers on Facebook.

that are idiots that don't really run a business. They run a one man show and they, they say they make 200 grand a year, but they don't have a business they could ever sell because no one wants to buy their job. They don't have a company and they're losers. And then I was a loser. So by the way, this was me. I didn't have any money. It was sweat equity. So I mean that mentality of, I make a lot of money and I've worked by myself. Um, it was a, it was a bad mindset, but tell me what time that you, you say something, people go for the cheapest.

What's interesting, Tommy, is like people will say that, but it's not what they actually mean. They don't actually want the cheapest. What they're telling you as a business or the salesperson is, I don't believe the value that you're presenting to me is worth the price that you're asking.

And so it's more on the salesperson being, it's more on the salesperson, either one, not stacking the value or two, believing themself that the homeowner wants the lower price. They get sold that the homeowner wants the lower price. And so they create an environment where the customer starts asking for a lower price and

And what we need to be doing as a sales, the reason that is why people don't like when, when, when salespeople get a bad rap, that is why, right? Because they're just keep lowering the price, keep lowering the price, keep lowering the price, keep lowering the price. It's like, Hey, you're not listening. You're not listening to me. I don't want this. Right. Because your job is not to lower the price. Your job is to solve a problem. Your job is to listen. Your job is to connect with that person and show them that you're,

treating them as a human being, you see their problem and you have a product and a solution for that problem. And if you want to go with the cheapest, there's plenty of other companies to go with. Like I'll be the first person to tell you if your number one desire is the cheapest product, we're not the company for you. But if you never want to have to worry about this project again, and you want to work with the best, you work with me.

Right. And I think that for your business and for mine, the salesperson is really the person that kind of creates that environment where the customer is saying, you know, I want a lower price. What do you think? I think I would ask you what's important to you because I've got options because I understand that if I'm not giving you options, I'm giving you ultimatums. I have a one year warranty. I have a five year and I have a lifetime. I have six packages for garage doors that every door falls into.

And you know what? Just because you might be flipping the home and I still want something that you could sell that'll pass inspection. That's important to you because I want to be your lifelong garage door guy. And I've got something, I got something for you. And if it's price, I got a price conscious option for you. That'll get you exactly what you want. And frankly, if you were my mother in the same circumstances, I wouldn't be giving you the five-star option. I think you'd fit really good in a two-star and I hope you use me at your next house and your forever home.

And that's what I would say. I would say, I've got options for you. And if you're looking for what my competitor could do, I could get you that. It really depends on your needs. And let's just talk about, first of all, I think the most important thing is that I've been background checked. You can trust me around your family, your two daughters. I'm going to be safe and I'm going to show up when we say we will.

I'll be here Thanksgiving night if you need me to. I could show up here on New Year's or Christmas. We don't close. And our warranty work comes in front like everybody. We very seldomly get warranty calls, but you get cut in front of line when something does go wrong because we know your time is important. And I respect your time more than anything because I know that's important in this day and age. We're all busy. And I smile and then I smile and then I smile. And everybody listening right now could see I'm smiling. They could hear me smiling over the phone.

Right. And I think the smile is the most underutilized thing. When somebody comes to my door and they're smiling and they make me laugh and they ask me a few questions and they say, well, this is what's important. The government's got some subsidies right now that they're actually going to pay for a portion of this. And right now the getting's good because right now this green new deals, it's, it's hot and heavy. And if you put something insulated, that's got a star rating, I could get you a 30% tax credit.

And it's absolutely phenomenal. And if you come from the idea of what's in it for me, there's something I read to all my technicians is I found that most salespeople issue is they provide me with their solutions instead of what are my solutions. And just like a doctor, Josh, I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. What's your stress and anxiety level? How's the family doing? What kind of alcohol intake? Are you smoking cigarettes? Do you have any pain?

I'm going to ask, I'm going to diagnose the person before the problem, and I'm going to find out the right prescription for you because you're not like your neighbor. You're not like your cousin. You're not like your brother. I'm going to figure out what's the best thing for you. And this is really what I would be recommending in the circumstances you're in of the best solution for you. And if you've got conviction, you look people in the eye, you don't stutter, and you are the doctor when you enter the home at the roof, you will sell more than you've ever thought possible. Yes. And I study my top people and I just...

The one thing I found is I had my guy, one of my top technicians count how many no's he got in a day. I said, I want you to just count. He said 24. He did 20 grand that day. Hell yeah. Yeah. That's something that we lean into is go for no.

And the guys that get the most no's make the most money. But dude, that was fire. Like everything that you just said there is so important. I wish that like I could transplant everything you just said into like every salesperson's brain because I think sales, when done professionally, it is the most noble thing

of skills and the most noble of jobs that you can hold in the United States. And I think when you don't do that and you're just focused on making a commission and how can I sell this person is when you make no money and everybody hates you. You know what I mean? So everything you just said there was so focused on listening to the customer,

and providing a solution. You said, "Hey, I've got a solution for you. I hear you. You said you're moving. Here's what we should do. And here's why we're going to do this. Here's why this is good for you. And I'm going to take care of you." You listed all your warranties. You said you'd be there. You said you wouldn't let them down. That's all people want to know. They just want to know that they're not going to get screwed. And it's not about the cheapest price. It's about

are you listening to me are you solving my problems are you providing value great can i afford it is the only question at that point and we take the affordable out of it when we give them options with which we call promotions which is there's only three type of buying personas and i know them like the back of my hand there's no interest low interest and low payment and if you could identify what type of buyer they are which everybody in the world fit into one of those three

You can move the needle very, very much. And you can take money out of the situation. Not everybody, not if your credit card score is 400, but then you get a cosigner. And understanding financing will set companies free, but they don't spend enough time, effort, and energy to master these things and get coached. And most people don't ask for the sale. They give this great pitch and they sit down and they go through the whole process. And they say, well, why don't we follow up? They say, you just got to ask Joe Corsaro says, what should we do?

what option would you like to pick? One of the things we say when we sell a door is I'm going to go over six options with you. Sounds like you need to. So I'll say this, Josh, it sounds like you need a new garage door. And if you say, I'm not so sure that I, that call should have never came to me. So it sounds like you need a new garage door, Josh. You should say, yeah, it sounds like it. And I'll say, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to go over six options with you. I got one through five starter, a one signature package. I'll go over each one of them for about 90 seconds, minute and a half. And I'll,

You pick one you like. How does that sound? And I'm hoping you're going to say, yeah, that sounds great. And then I'm going to go over the six and then I'm going to say, which one of these work for you? Doesn't that seem super simple? Yeah. And it's not like this complicated process where people have to just figure it all out. It's just...

And it works. It works every time. I love what you're doing there too with like, you've got six options or whatever it is. So it's like reading from a menu. It's yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, or no. But the likelihood of it being a no at that point, I mean, if you do everything else properly, they're going to choose one of the six yeses.

And I think that's something that- And we have an ability to add value. We're very strict on how we discount, but I could always add in value. I could extend warranties. I could do some things, but I got to find out the root of the problem. What is it stopping you from making a decision today? I got to talk to my wife. Well, first of all, you should never give a presentation, my technicians know, to wait till the significant other is home with a buying decision of a new garage door. One of them might be,

I think people need to be price desensitized. So I would say, you know, Josh, I got roofs. We just did one the other day that was 200,000. We've got another roof we just did for 25,000. Probably falls in between there. Let me go over your options. So when I say that $40,000 roof,

I anchored it at 200,000. All of a sudden, 40 sounds like a really good opportunity for me. I feel like I'm getting a bargain. And I think a lot of people don't understand the anchoring. And I must have read over 200 sales books. And I just take the things I love and then I implement, which very few people do. But yeah, I love sales. And I think we're salesmen every day. Daniel Pink to sell is human.

I went and I figured out who the best salesman at the church was. And it happened to be the preacher. He's getting you to give 10% of your income for the rest of your life.

You go to a huge congregation, you'll find the best salesperson you've ever seen. It's weird when you go to a church. Joel Osteen is the goat of sales. Joel Osteen, yeah. I mean, he's got a palace in Dallas. The fact is, you hear him talk, and he speaks with conviction, and he's a likable guy. He's a good-looking guy. He dresses to the 10, and he knows the scripture, and people invest in that. And he knows how to get people to give. Now he knows how to do it on TV.

You just watch him and you start watching everybody around you. You start watching the infomercials and watching the Ninja and you pull out little pieces. The Ninja Blender isn't that cool, except you know that it can build longevity. It can crush up the vitamins more than anything. And it's simple. It's easy to use. And they've done such a great job of it because they give a lifetime warranty on the motor and all these guarantees behind it.

And it's all around us if we just open our eyes. Yes. And very few people just, they don't open their eyes. They don't watch infomercials. I was sold on the Total Gym and the Bowflex. And I figured out a way to flip those. I used to flip Bowflexes and Total Gyms because they did all the work for me. I just had to find them at a cheaper price. Wait, you sold Bowflexes?

Yeah, I used to buy them in Craigslist and sell them in the Arizona Republic. I've bought several hundred of them. There were times where I went and picked up four or five in a day and I'd put them in my backyard and I'd go set them up in the front yard and the guy would come up with his son and I'd show him how to use it, show him what exercises I liked.

Because they did all the work for me in the infomercial. And then I sold them in a different marketplace. It was arbitrage. I think that's something, what you said there is so important as well, is aligning what you're selling with the current, whatever's going on in the world or the economy and situational selling. You were doing that by choosing a product that had tons of infomercials. But I think that you can align...

products a lot of times with, and like urgency, especially with whatever's going on in the world where you're telling them, you know, a story that everybody knows to be true. For example, you know, for us, if it, uh, depending on the market, we do roofs and the insurance company is involved and the, a hurricane will come through in South Florida and, you know, we're in, I don't know, somewhere hundreds of miles away from South Florida. And, um,

You know, you can talk about that event where it's like, hey, guys, look, that hurricane that just came through. There's hundreds of thousands of claims that are about to go in. Insurance companies are about to be really, really, really backed up. Like if you're going to do this, you can do it now. So you can get ahead of the line. You have to wait behind all those hundreds of thousands of people.

And like, I think there's examples of that. You know, Ryan Reynolds, I don't know if you pay attention to it. He's doing it all, but he started a company. Murdering it, murdering it. Yeah. His entire business model is based around aligning his products with whatever's going on in the media.

And I think that salespeople can do that when they're sitting in a presentation. Look around the world, pay attention, be aware. Have some awareness of what's going on around you and leverage that, use that to tell your story. And I think that that's very rarely done except at the highest levels of sales. I do it every day. I mean, literally I say...

Josh, do you want to use your money or do you want to use ours today? With inflation through the roof, two world wars going on. I mean, gas prices. If I were you, I'd just use our money at this point, make the investment into your home. And here's the coolest thing about Crosstores. It's 40% of your curb appeal. It's the smile of your home. And by the way, Remodel Magazine six years in a row said it's better than your kitchens or bathrooms. It's 102.7% ROI.

So when you invest in this, it's not going to be safer, but you're going to get your money back out of it. It's an investment. Why don't we just use our money? I'll finance it. And I don't say, I'll give you a promotion that allows you to do it over 20 years. I'll make your payments super low and there's no prepayment penalty. So here's the greatest thing. You're not going to pay anything for 90 days till after we get it installed. And if you decide, you know, if you're like me, I got money coming up here. I'm going to get a big tax check back and just pay it off whenever you want.

It gives me a lot of flexibility. When you combine that with everything that you said at first, where you're listening, you're asking a lot of questions, you're playing the doctor, and then you create that irresistible offer that solves their problem, they're going to say yes. I doubt that if you have a two-legged appointment, meaning the husband and the wife are there, that if Tommy Mello's in-house, it's going to be really, really rare that somebody says no.

Right. And the, as long as they're, you're creating demand from nothing. See, everybody's an inbound call for me. So they've got a problem. So it's pretty simple. And the one mistake we make is go, Oh, you got a broken spring. No, don't say that. You say, have you ever thought about replacing this garage door? Right. And I say simple words. Look, we can kick the can down the road. We can bandaid this. Those words I use are very, very important. And I love sales, man. I love it. I love it so much, but I love marketing more.

You know, it takes me back to this. A lot of people, the buzzword right now for home service is culture. And what I've always said is if you do not create the culture, it'll be created for you regardless. And usually when you don't focus on creating a great culture, it creates a negative culture. And it starts with the owner, founder, and the leadership team all day long. And it sounds like you've got an amazing culture. And what are some of the things you think about to create that?

Yeah, you're 100% right. When the leadership team, including myself, is involved in the culture, it's amazing. And we've had periods in the company where we haven't been as involved, right? And exactly like you said, the culture kind of creates itself and it's typically pretty negative.

And so I think one of the things that you have to do at all times is be talking about how amazing your business is openly in front of everyone. Right. And so, for example, if we're, you know, if one of the best things about being a salesperson at SmartRoof is that you don't have to do all these other small tasks.

you know, that really suck your time away from doing the thing that makes you money. You can't just assume that the team is going to know that that is a benefit of working here. You have to talk about it. You have to talk about what is the standard in the industry? Why are we different? How awesome is it that you don't have to waste your time doing that? And you have an amazing team behind you, supporting you, doing all those tasks for you.

Because if you don't talk about it, it's not like they have worked at 30 different or seen the industry as a whole like you have as a leader or an executive. They don't know what's out there. This might be the first time they've worked in the industry and they assume every company is like this. And so I think that as the leadership team, making sure that you're constantly talking about the things that separate you, what make you different and why the culture is different than other places. One of our guys...

This is the beginning of November. We're recording this in a Halloween party that he invited me to. And I showed up and there was 200 people there and they're all our employees. There was not one person that I didn't recognize. That's crazy. That doesn't exist in most businesses. And you can't just let those types of things fly under the radar. You have to talk about it in

in front of the team because the people that weren't there, you know, the other 200 people that work in our company that weren't at that party, like they don't know that that happened. And it's your job as a leader to be aware enough to see that and talk about it with the team and just bring awareness to the situation. And I think that that is, if you can do that, I've personally noticed in our business that the culture shifts in the right direction.

An easy thing I think most people could do is start having breakfast and lunches and breaking bread and hearing other things outside of work. Cause if they develop relationships,

83% of people say they won't quit their job because they have best friends there. They've actually created friendships and that happens outside of work at those Halloween events. That happens. I mean, the people that will never leave me, they're best friends with one another and they've created a brotherhood and a sisterhood in this family. And it really is, it sounds cliche in a culture to say family, but it is a family. It's a family maybe we've never had. And it

with great people that respect us, that listen to us, that want to see us win. And a lot of us didn't have that in our personal family. So we've created a family at work. Yes. You know, Josh, if somebody wants to get ahold of you and reach out to you and hear how you're doing so well for just eight years of business, what's the best way to do that? Instagram. So Josh underscore roof energy, Josh underscore roof energy. Send me a DM and I'm pretty good about responding to those.

And is there any books that have just completely changed your life? Uh, think and grow rich was the very first life changing book that I read. And then after that, I would say discipline is destiny. Those two are the, the real life changers for me. I read all the time, just like I'm sure you do, but those two are real game changers for me. You know, Mark Victor Hanson just tried to call me earlier when we were on the podcast and, uh,

We're doing, I'm doing something with him at Napoleon Hill that he just wants a 30 minute interview that he said it's going to have millions of people watching it. So grow at a great book. It's just a great leadership book that everybody should really read and really understand it. Last thing I do here, Josh, just give you an opportunity to close us out. And this was a great podcast. We talked about culture. We talked about mindset. We talked about leadership. We talked about sales and, uh,

You know, I think you're going to do really, really amazing things in the business. It's going to go far. It really will. And you're a great leader. You build a great team around you. And I'm proud to have you on the podcast to see where you take this thing. And I'm always here if you ever need anything. But give us a way to close this out and have every listener just thinking about something they could take, adapt, and make their own and make some changes in their life and their business.

Well, first of all, thank you, Tommy, for those kind words. It was awesome being on here, getting to know you better. I think if I was going to say one thing, especially for the men on the podcast, is there's two types of males that exist. And one is boys and one is men. And the difference between the two is that

The boys think that someone is coming to save them and the men realize that no one's coming to save them and they take things into their own hands and they create their own destiny and their own roadmap. And

If I can come from nothing and create and build what I built, I hope that that is an inspiration to somebody who needs to hear this message. But you have to wake up and realize that the boy that you are now is never going to get there. No one's coming to save you. You have to become a man and realize that you have to save you. That's how I close it out. Got you here. Won't get you there. I love it. Josh, this has been a great podcast.

I can't wait to meet you in person. You got my cell phone number. I text you. So let's make sure we follow up and yeah, keep up the great work, my friend. All right, brother. I'll talk to you soon. All right, brother. See you, buddy.

Hey there, thanks for tuning into the podcast today. Before I let you go, I want to let everybody know that Elevate is out and ready to buy. I can share with you how I attracted a winning team of over 700 employees in over 20 states. The insights in this book are powerful and can be applied to any business or organization. It's a real game changer for anyone looking to build and develop a high-performing team like over here at A1 Garage Door Service. So if you want to learn the secrets that helped me transfer my team from stealing the toilet paper...

to a group of 700 plus employees rowing in the same direction, head over to elevateandwin.com forward slash podcast and grab a copy of the book. Thanks again for listening and we'll catch up with you next time on the podcast.