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there are a lot of people in this world with great information great wisdom great experience but there's not that many people that have lectured at oxford and stanford and harvard who have spoken on tedx who have worked for fortune 100 companies and also started entrepreneurial startups by themselves our guest today is one of those people but there's an interesting twist
As of the time that we're recording, only about two or three weeks ago did our guest leave a near-death experience that she'd been involved with for many weeks.
She's a cancer, a recent cancer survivor, had some complications that we'll talk about in this episode. But that journey and that near-death experience gave her an opportunity, consciously or subconsciously, to organize all of these pieces of wisdom, pearls of knowledge and experience that she's had in the corporate and entrepreneurial world.
where she can now lay them out in a strategic and tactical way to help us with one of the biggest problems that entrepreneurs, founders, and business leaders have. We'll tell you what that problem is as soon as we get into this episode. It's going to be a great one. You're going to want to listen to the end. Great story, great advice, great strategic and tactical information. Here we go.
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of the Growth Gear Podcast. I'm your host Tim Jordan and today we have a lot to discuss that is applicable to everybody. I don't care if you're a brand new entrepreneur, if you're an executive or founder of a Fortune 100 company, or if you're just trying to do better at life. The topic that we're covering today encompasses all of those things and I think it's highly important. So I'm going to go ahead and welcome our guest,
I've actually known her for years and been a little bit disconnected recently. And there's really a good reason for that, especially in the last year. We'll get into that in just a second. But welcome, Wanda, to the show.
Thank you, Tim. So good to be here. So exciting. Yeah. And your last name is Peranik, right? Well, I say Peranik. Peranik. Dang it. I got that wrong. Right before we started recording, I was getting it right. Wanda Peranik. So in the years that I've known Wanda, I've intentionally mispronounced her name just to pick on her. And now getting it right is actually hard because my brain is screwed up. But where are you based at?
I'm based out of Toronto. I'm from South Florida, but I've lived in Toronto for the last number of years. Got it. So you have an interesting history. You've been involved in business for over 25 plus years, right? What are some of the companies that you worked with? So I started my corporate career off with Procter & Gamble. Loved, loved being there.
And based on the changes they were going through, it was nice to have have left them as well. Worked at Kellogg's. Tremendous consumer level experience. I was a director of marketing at RBC. And then after having three kids and realizing that I'm not going to go back to work for something that I'm not really excited about.
I'm going to try to do my own thing. So as soon as I heard, as soon as my, an ex-boss of mine heard that I was going to go into consulting or freelancing, she called me up right away. And my business has been 100% referral and it's been, I've built every brand and business I've worked on. So pretty high success rate. And I'm glad I had all those consulting experiences to do that with. So I've worked in a lot of industries.
So you've worked with giant CPG companies. You worked with small entrepreneurial upstarts, mostly in the marketing and strategy kind of consulting world. It's given you a lot of experience, right? And you've probably seen a lot of things that have gone well in business, a lot of things that haven't gone well, right?
Yeah. And I've been involved in quite a bit of innovation work as well, which is it's interesting because not everybody gets an opportunity to be involved in that. But just the way my path led, that's something that I chose because there's a different way of thinking when you're innovating and there's different tools you can use. Well, I know you have a lot of wisdom you're going to bring. And just going through kind of the list of the topics you want to talk about before we start recording, I got excited because we've never had this conversation. There's a lot here that
You know, I know I'm going to glean from and I know there are listeners are too, but let's start off with, um,
Maybe the word genesis is wrong. Maybe the organization of thoughts is wrong. But I know that in just the past nine months or so, you've had a lot happen. And a lot of that led you to some of the organization of these realizations, or I don't know exactly how you'd word it. But start off and maybe let's spend five minutes talking about what happened starting in July of last year, 2023. At the end of July, very unexpectedly, I got...
I in my in a routine mammogram, they saw some sort of a disturbance, shall we say, when I was officially diagnosed. So I've been going through this process for the last two, three weeks, and they officially diagnosed me in August. But even even through that, I'd still been traveling and speaking and all of that. But I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
And it's interesting because there's different stages and gates. So I'm in a situation where I would have to have both surgery, well, not all three, surgery, chemo, radiation, and meds for about the next five years. By February, I had done my last treatment. And all of a sudden, I woke up on Valentine's Day with a
a really bad toothache. And I knew that- Now, when you said fibular, you're talking about
This year. Two months ago. We're recording this in mid-April of 24, for those of you listening. So this infection and the final round of chemo and this toothache was just two months ago. All right, keep going. Yeah, it's just two months ago. And that was Valentine's Day. And we said, OK, fever plus chemo, got to get to ER. So went there. I waited for about seven hours, even though I was prioritized.
was seen by the head of the department. Finally, uh, they, as soon as they saw me and knew what I was asking for, I mean, like it was like grease lightning, honestly, like everything just came like sliding in and they had me hooked up to everything. And, and they tried, um, they tried, uh, putting a breathing machine type thing on me and I freaked out, uh, because it was too tight and I was already having trouble breathing. Um, which was really the main issue.
And I after that, there was I have no memory after that. There was nothing. I don't know what happened. Anything. I've lost weeks of my memory. I went on to the oncology floor and I got worse. So they said, we're going to have to go invasive. You know, my husband was completely involved. He was incredible through this whole thing. He was part of the team that eventually when I ended up in ICU.
they, I had probably about a team of 10 people, um, specialists from all different countries, all different disciplines, because this was less than 60 days ago. Yeah. All right. Keep going. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. And, and, you know, you'd never know looking at me today, right? It's, um, it's, it's just, things happened really fast on all counts, actually, whether it was getting worse or whether it was getting better. And, um,
So the ICU team, they, you know, they, they basically put me, they intubated me, put me on a ventilator, decided that they needed to do things more aggressively. They tested me for everything from COVID to tuberculosis to everything. Wasn't really getting better. And so all the specialists were called in. In fact, I had the specialist, I had the preeminent specialist who is the leader in ventilators at my hospital.
So, he pulled my husband aside, and this was a really interesting fact, that there's a lot of times in cases like this, or in somewhat similar cases, where we don't really know what's going on, but we know how to control it. And from that moment on, they knew that they were going to control it. But there were a lot of people who were skeptical because I ended up with a condition called ARDS, which is acute respiratory distress syndrome, which...
It doesn't have a very favorable survival rate. So when I came out of ICU two weeks later, so I was in a coma for two weeks.
And I came out of ICU and they, I don't think I've ever seen so many medical teams. And there were a number of them so giddy about seeing someone alive and happy and talking to them. I was just like, what is happening? But it was, it was pretty cool. And so it just, it was a shocking incident because it came out of nowhere. It's not even, I don't even know if anybody's had this situation who's taking this particular chemo drug, which is what they think.
they hypothesize led to this. Yeah. And during that coma, you said you had some awareness. I can honestly see why people would get addicted to this stuff because I was on barbiturates. And let me tell you, I had quite a trip. I was flying through galaxies and dimensions and ending up in places that I never even knew existed with like weird concoctions and, you know, trying things and
Man, everything was just big. Everything was just everything was big, but it wasn't involved with tons of people in terms of your relationships. So even when I ended up somewhere, it was like two people having a conversation or two people having a drink or or two entities thinking about business moving forward. Like whatever it was, it was always about two people. So the realizations were really pretty phenomenal. It was an awakening for me.
So there were, there were a few. The first thing is, is I tend to be a giver and I give to the point where, you know, I don't, I'm not respectful of myself enough. So these are realizations you had kind of in this, you know, kind of wonderland you were in. And I've heard people talk about ayahuasca trips and, you know, LSD therapy and things like that. So this is something similar. You could be in a different part of your consciousness and, and analyze yourself, analyze life.
Yeah, absolutely. And I took a look at, well, what am I supposed to get from this? And it's hard because you have to write down everything when you first come out, you know, and because if you don't, what you remember isn't the same as what you remember when you were in it.
I started writing stuff down and the things that really started to pop out is number one, I need to make a clean break in terms of saying me first. You know, it was very black and white. I when I was my previous state, which was still a great state, but it wasn't great for me all the time. And I think that's the difference. I was going to always get to me, but I never got to me. And now it's like I do everything with me first in mind.
It's not a it's not a sort of a selfish thing. It's it's actually a very courageous thing to do. So I just I want to make that point. Yeah. A few guests ago, we had Jason Van Ruler, who is a mental health specialist and high performance coach. And he was saying the same thing that everybody forgets to take care of themselves first. And you have to improve yourself before you can fix anything around you. Yeah, totally agree with that.
And I'm seeing the results of it now. The whole cadence and order at which I'm doing things completely changed. And we'll talk a little bit more about that, about the near future in a minute. But that was one thing I learned. The other thing I learned is just as you cannot multitask, you cannot multi-conversation or multi-person. When you're with someone, you need to be 150% with someone. That's how I operate in general.
Um, but you'll be amazed where people think, okay, I'm at a party. I need to talk to everybody. You're actually not talking to everybody. You're only talking to one person at a time and you switch. Your brain switches really quickly, which is what happens when you multitask. You're actually not, you know, doing multitask. You're switching. Um, and sometimes that can actually be a lot worse. It's better to be focused. Um, another thing that I learned and I have these words that come to my mind. Um, one big word for me is curiosity.
and living in that state of curiosity. But the other word that really came to me, and it came to me because I'm often asked, do you believe everything happens for a reason? And I don't. But doesn't mean I believe that the opposite is true either. But I do believe that whatever happens to you, make sure it is purposeful. Otherwise, it would have happened in vain. You can almost make it have happened for a reason, even though it didn't necessarily happen for a reason. That's right.
You're absolutely right. And I think I've done that, actually. So I'm sure we all have. But but if it happens in vain, that would be really tragic. Right. You didn't get anything out of the experience. People talk about living a purposeful life. And I find that I find that very ambiguous, because what does that really mean?
you know, I want to live a life of purpose. What does that mean? Like, you know, I want to think differently. What does that mean? There has to be some sort of concrete idea around it. Even if you, even if it's something that you're, you say you're going to discover what it means and what actions are you going to take to discover it, that's perfectly fine. But for me, the second word for me that was sort of starting to brew, but really came solidified is being deliberate.
And the reason I chose deliberate is because, well, it's a choice and it's active. Like you are making the decision to do it. So it puts control within yourself. So when I spoke to you, I don't know, a week or week and a half ago, and we talked about a topic for the podcast. The one that you wrote is you'd like to cover, quote, the one skill that we are never taught, but has the power to change everything.
Yeah. And I'm excited about that. And hearing, you know, to be honest, although I've known you for a while, I didn't know your background. I didn't know how much experience you had, how much corporate and entrepreneurial experience. You know, you've got a heck of a resume. So hopefully that translates to a lot of wisdom, a lot of experience. But then you also just went through this near-death experience, this time where you can organize all of this and think about this in a way that maybe you would not have thought about it before. And I'm excited that you want to share that.
So that skill that we're talking about, I'll let you introduce it now. And then you've got a list of principles that go along with that. So kind of for the meat and potatoes of this podcast episode, let's go through those different principles. But first off, what is that one skill? To me, the key is creative problem solving.
The there are many skills that were never taught, things like mindfulness, things like coping skills, financial literacy. There's all kinds of stuff that we kind of just when we you know, when it's time, we need to learn it. We do it. But this is the one skill that you use every day, everywhere, whether it's with your kids. Like I remember telling my kids, you know, if you don't want your brother to irritate you, figure out the outcome that you want and govern yourself accordingly.
As an example. So, yes, and I actually did talk to my kids like that. Even when they were little. Creative problem solving is really the skill, but it stems out of a lot of neuroplasticity.
And the brain is really incredible at creating new pathways, molding itself, changing itself. There's a lot of studies done on Einstein's brain. And, you know, people think left side, right side. It's actually not true. It's they they they can weave together. And that's what happened with him as an example, because they kind of sliced his brain up and figured it out, which is kind of gross. But just small detail. Yeah, small details. But.
The the what I had done is I essentially had gotten bored of consulting and freelancing and I said I wanted to restructure my business. So a couple of years ago, maybe three years ago now, I restructured how I'm going to approach it. And there were there was a strategy and then there were different elements of how I was going to build it. And then I had an opportunity to be part of an anthology, which became a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller.
And then from there, I got speaking opportunities to talk about this topic. But as part of the anthology, I had developed a new success model. It's self-propagating and it's everlasting. So there is no reason why each of us cannot be continuously successful.
And I think we need that because even in the studies that talk about happiness, there's one area in particular that I find fascinating, which is this notion of telek versus a telek activities. Have you heard of this?
I have not. It's really interesting. They did a study on happiness and they found I won't go into the, you know, the curves and all that. But what they found is that there's two different types of activities that we all do. Telek are the ones that have an end. A telek are the ones that don't have an end. So as an example, I'm walking to the store is telek. There's an end in sight. A telek is I'm going for a walk.
Going for a walk allows you the point of discovery and not having any other kind of goals infecting, so to speak, your mind at the time. It's freedom. It's very liberating. While telek and atelek are both important and we need them, it's the atelek ones that drive happiness. It's just letting go.
And so as part of the success cycle that I was developing, I said, I've got to make sure it's part of that. So the way I've structured the cycle is, you know, things start with curiosity. Then you go into discovery or experimentation. You go into discovery. I'm really simplifying this. Go into discovery, go into making choices, adapting and recalibrating. So recalibrating becomes really key because it starts you on the next step.
curiosity cycle, if you will. And by doing that over and over again, your brain starts to adapt. So you don't have to worry about whether you're going to figure it out or not. You will figure it out or you will find what you're looking for. You just have to go through the process. And that to me is incredible because you have control over what you're curious about. Sometimes
We're in tragic situations and we become curious about things, like just with my own medical experience. Sometimes we meet great people and we become curious about them. Sometimes we can't figure stuff out. And that's where really creative problem solving comes in. And you can there's there's there's ways to nudge people.
the neuroplasticity that you have. So people talk a lot about learning a new language or interacting with different people or integrating into society. There's also times where you have no control, where you have an illness or where you have a drug addiction or you're born with something that can't be changed. I talk a lot about that. And what you realize is that
the, the, our ability to create a problem solve, to be curious and create a problem solve,
are, they're just, it's totally magical. Like there is nothing that you won't be able to solve. The really great thing that this allows you to do is it allows you to create choices for yourselves. And people always are in this mode where they're thinking, this is the way to do it, or this is what's been done, or this is how I have to go. And it's just simply not true. So when you create choices for yourself, you're essentially sculpting your own future, right? Like you're making it happen. So the principles that I talk about
a lot are as follows. So the first thing I talk about is solving for the outcome and not the problem. So what happens is when you solve for the problem, you get fixated on that problem. It consumes you. You're racking your brains, pulling your hair out, trying to figure out what is it that, you know, I can't get this. That might actually not even be a problem.
whatever you're trying to solve. So in other words, is it the right problem? How do you know? Is it attached to anything else? Does it even matter? You know, have you invented the problem? And, you know, we're all capable of doing that, creating problems where they don't exist. And then the best one yet is trying to solve a problem that you cannot see.
I feel like there's a lot of depth here, but let me back up like half a step. When you say solving for the outcome, not the problem, I often think that the outcome is the same as the solution, right? But that's not accurate because we can't solve for a solution without knowing what the solution is. So the outcome is the step beyond the solution, right? You might say the outcome is how to make something taste better. The problem would be this tastes too salty.
The solution would be add sugar. Right. But if you actually go through the problem solving process, and it's not complicated, but if you go through it, you may actually come up with different actions you need to take, questions you need to ask. I'm simplifying it in terms of a recipe. But the people you need to consult with and choices, the different options that you finally get to. Because quite honestly, if you've got too much salt in something,
One of the really great solutions is adding potatoes, you know, so it has nothing to do with sugar. Right. And you've just avoided something that is probably not the best in terms of your health. So so my point is, is that it's you know, what we often think is a problem is not necessarily a problem because it has nothing to do with the outcome that you want to achieve. It's just something that got thrown in your face.
that you immediately reacted to. And this is really interesting between the corporate and the entrepreneurial world. You know, corporately, a lot of times, or even in school, we're told what to do. You get into the entrepreneurial world and you're not told what to do. You have to figure everything out, right? So we got to be really good at this, at least as entrepreneurs, to say, what is the outcome that I want to achieve? And so that's the big thing for me. When you become fixated on a problem,
And that does happen because, hey, that's the problem. We got to get to it, solve it. You you you're subject to something called cognitive rigidity, which basically means that, you know, as it sounds, you can't think as fluidly. And when we do that, what happens is when you have new information coming at you and dropped in your lap, you don't pay enough attention to it. What about principle number two?
Principle number two is curiosity. Live in a state of curiosity. I love curiosity because it's active, not passive. It's totally non-judgmental. It makes you look at things like through the eyes of Einstein or a child discovering the world for the first time. And one of the things that I found is it's pretty amazing in relationships too. Because when you're, let's say, having an argument,
or a discussion with somebody who is strongly opposed to what you're saying, if you just approach it in the sense of curious, like, you know, why did you say that? Like, that's really interesting. I never would have thought about it that way. Or what makes you so angry about this? Because I'm trying to figure this out, but, you know, I want to understand your point of view. All of a sudden, the relationship goes from being potentially antagonistic to being, hey, okay, you know, this person kind of actually wants to hear what I'm saying. Maybe
He or she is respectful of what I'm saying. So it's a huge deal in relationships as far as I'm concerned. And these are mostly conflicts. But even with kids, you know, just be curious about what they're saying because kids are brilliant. And so I guess to me, like two years ago, I made the decision deliberately to live in a state of curiosity and it has completely changed my life.
Like the last two years, I don't get angry at things. I don't get frustrated by things. I just approach it with like, hmm, wonder why. One thing that I try to do is just treat everything as data.
Right. So maybe that's similar to this. Right. So instead of trying to have an emotional response to some sort of input, just use it as data, use it as knowledge that I can use for whatever it is, whether I need to make a correction to myself, whether I need to analyze the situation from a different perspective. So I guess that ties in with this idea of thinking of everything as.
as a question, you know, thinking of everything as maybe not thinking of it as a question, but being able to attach questions around it, like why, which would be curiosity. You know, we're looking at a set of data, to your point, and it's the data that we don't see that actually matter more or what the data doesn't tell you that you have to look, that you have to search a little bit further into. So I don't know if you've heard the story of Abraham Wald.
or it'll be Vauld. It's a fantastic World War II story. He was part of a strategic group that figured out how to win the war without, you know, obviously without ammunition. It was how to use our brains and how to be smart about it. And there were a lot of fighter planes coming back with holes in them and holes all over the fuselage.
So they knew that they needed to protect that area. So the scientists that were working on it, the data analysts, they went to Abraham Wald as a final check and said, this is what we're finding. But it was tough because they had to put on armor, but it couldn't be too heavy. Otherwise, it would slow the planes down. It couldn't be too large. Otherwise, it would cover certain areas. I think I know the end of this. So basically what they did was figured out that the
the planes that returned with holes in them showed where it didn't matter if there was a hole. That's right. It's the planes that didn't return. Yeah. So, so, and that, that was an Abraham wall thing. Like he was the one that's credited for that. Um, so it's just, it's sometimes we don't see everything, right? It's sometimes it's the stuff that you don't see as well. Principle number three, I know is going to be tough because it includes the word humility and as entrepreneurs and business folks, that's a, uh,
That's a tough word, but you have a little bit different spin or different context on it. Yeah, I am. So I call it intellectual humility. And this is really where collaboration happens. It's a very courageous step. It is. It is, you know, and I have to tell you, I come from a family of surgeons. I wanted to be a lounge singer, but that's beside the point. In my case, you know, you have 10 very, very strong surgeons.
Um, very successful, very knowledgeable, very intellectual specialists working on my case at a time. And the humility I saw there was incredible. So anybody that came up with a suggestion, it's like, you know, oh, this guy from Singapore had a suggestion. And, um, one of the ones, one of the, um, local, uh, surgeons would say, tell me more about that.
Like, why'd you guys do it that way? It's like, well, because it just seemed to work better. So they looked into that for me as an example. Or they had someone, you know, say that, you know, why don't you try it this way? Because based on the physics of how this is working, you need to you need to change the position. And that worked. But you need all you need. You need you become so much smarter with intellectual humility. It's it's astonishing.
And so I'm I'm really big on this whole collaboration thing and cross pollination thing, which I talk a lot about. And I would really want us to be, you know, be living more in that space if we could. But it's it's you know, when you're when you're the highest in your field and you think you know it all, that's like the Dunning-Kruger effect, which states that, you know what?
I know way more, but you really don't. You don't want to be those people. You know, don't assume you know that because you just don't. So intellectual humility is a big one for me. And I do believe that's the one. Well, all of these will help, you know, sculpt the future.
So all of these principles are fairly strategic, high level things that, you know, if all we did was took those out of this episode and then research those more and focused on those things, we would be in a lot better shape. But can you talk a little bit more tactically about how we might implement some of this stuff? For me, the key things is that, you know, we talked about one of them already. Take note of what the data doesn't display. Right. We talked about.
making sure you really know what the problem is. So for example, ask the questions to yourself. There's a million questions you can ask to figure out what the problem is, what the real problem is. And most often it's not what you think it is. So asking those questions and getting a list of those questions prepared in advance, asking people for their input, getting a multi-
collaboration going where you can actually brainstorm and there's multiple people, there's people with very different experiences that can come to the table. It's a completely different experience. You know, so if you're, if you're trying to solve a, you know, visually creative problem, get a chef in there because tell me they don't think about visuals, right? But they're not traditional. There's also the side where
where you want to be completely focused. So visualizing versus being completely focused are two very different things. And I don't know if people know to draw that distinction. So if you think of like the peregrine falcon,
That thing like swoops down at such a rate to catch its prey and nothing else matters. Like being so focused that you're going there. But it's not to say that it visualizes what's going to happen. It just goes for what they see. Right. So that's that's the distinction between the two. If you look at Michael Phelps, he's doing all these exercises to visualize that he's going to win these races. And he does.
So I really want us to become, you know, better thinkers. I want us to be better and swifter decision makers. I really do believe that the world would be in a different place if we were more like that. And the other really important thing is I want us to stimulate our future generations to be like that. And, you know, sometimes we overlook that part of it.
But there's a whole other conversation to be had about generational thinking. And, you know, especially here in the Western world, you know, coming out of World War Two, we could probably talk for two hours about the greatest generation and maybe how our thinking process isn't optimized as well as it could be. So, you know, changing that. But like I said, topic for another day.
So I know we're about out of time. You've given us a lot to think about and, um, Hey, congrats for being here. It's kind of, it shocks me that only a few weeks ago, you know, you were in the midst of a near death experience and, you know, you're able to, uh, to come on for those of you that are listening. Um, I'm sure we have edited it out by now, but, but she's still coughing a little bit and, you know, not a hundred percent respiratory wise, but
She was insistent on being on this episode. She really wanted to share this stuff. And I'm appreciative, Wanda, that you're here and in both sets here on this earth, but also here on the episode. So thank you so much for making the time to share this with us. Thank you. I appreciate it. And I'm delighted. Now, what do you have? What do you have coming up next? I know you've got some big stuff on the way. So I just I just did a TEDx, which was that was hard. It was three days after I got out of the hospital. So that was really hard.
just from a breathing standpoint. And then my next goal is to finish my book. The book is called Might, M-I-G-H-T, and it has a double entendre. Might is in power and might is in possibility. So the power to solve the impossible or how might we solve this? You know, where do you go when nothing seems to work or, you know, you've tried, you don't even know where to begin. So it's all about those, that idea and how to solve tough problems and where to get started.
So that book hopefully will launch in May. And then I'm speaking a lot, but my favorite interaction is when I do get the chance to do one-on-ones with people. And I am building a group that is going to be a collaborative community and collaborative.
I work primarily with outliers. So these are people who think differently. They're not boisterous. They're just curious and they're creative and they know that there's something more that they can do and something more that can become of the situation that we're in. They declare independence from the status quo. They do want to sculpt their future. They do want to make choices and be the driver of those choices.
So they're progressive. So those are the people that I'm going to work with. And I said to you earlier, and I'm actually building this, is a posse of bad bitches doing great work. So I love that. I'm so excited about it. A lot of the people that I work with are women and women entrepreneurs. But it's delightful. And then there's other plans from there. But, you know, we'll see how these pan out first.
Well, thanks so much, everybody, for listening. I know that we've covered a lot of ground and may have left you with more questions than answers, but definitely follow Wanda to grab her book and get some of those answers or shoot her a message on LinkedIn. I'm sure she would be happy to respond. Now I just committed for her to answer a thousand people messaging her.
For those of you that appreciated, liked any of the content in this episode, make sure to leave us a review on whatever platform you're listening on. Make sure to subscribe on all the platforms on YouTube or on all the social media platforms. And of course, we're on the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Spotify, and like the 90 others out there. Make sure to give us a rating as well so people can find this. Wanda, thanks again for being on here. And thank all of you for listening to the end. And we'll see you on the next episode.