Blanche and the Younger Man (Season 1, Episode 9)
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Hi, Jennifer Simard. Hey, Patrick Hines. Hey. Hi, Cheesecakes. We're already on episode nine, girl. Can you believe it? No, but you know what else I can't believe? We have a Facebook group.

Tell me all about it. So we have a Facebook group where we connect with all the cheesecakes. We hang out. We share the Golden Girls. I almost said Indigo Girls memes. Do that too. I love the Indigo Girls. They're my favorite band of all time. I know. So go ahead and share your Indigo Girls memes, but also like talk about the episodes, make new friends, find people in your community. It's called the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcasts.

And you should join. And while you're at it, you should follow us on TikTok and Instagram because our social media guy, Aaron, who's like a brilliant social media influencer himself, he takes our really funny moments in the booth and turns them into these amazing, hilarious, viral moments. I can be having the worst day and then I'll get that text and it'll just cheer me right up. I know.

He's so talented. He's so talented. Like, he takes the clips from the show. Our background is Blanche's wallpaper and Blanche's bedroom. The famous homilies, which we do talk about at some point, the history of it. Yes. We're historians here. That's what we are now. What are we going to not talk? We're historians. We're historians. Who are our favorite? Beshlas. Beshi. We got to get Beshi on the show. Oh, my God. The handles are at Golden Girls Deep Dive on TikTok and Instagram. So go follow now, Cheesecakes. Yes.

Just follow. Do that and don't be me who's been listening to Patrick say this and nodding because that's what you should do on a podcast. Just nod. Just nod. Everyone loves hearing that. God, the dulcet nods of Samart. I'm telling you, the number of people who look me straight in the face when I'm talking and just like disassociate and nod, that's all I need. But enough about Steve and your love life. I know.

My poor disassociated husband. Girl, we're on episode nine. It's called Blanche and the Younger Man. Yes. And for those of you who don't know what we do here, we recap episode

episodes of the Golden Girls in order, starting from the beginning. And also we have a full-time researcher named Jess. Yes. Yes, Jess. Yes, Jess. And with his help, you know, we give you little deep dives throughout the recap just to give you that little extra bit of Golden Girls info. And at the end, we do a fully researched deep dive of something from, as Patrick would say, from the Golden Girls universe.

Patrick, tell the Cheesecakes about our super exciting deep dive today. Okay, so this we've never done before. Our deep dive today is an interview with Stan Zimmerman, who was a staff writer for season one of The Golden Girls. He came into the studio and sat down with us. He and his writing partner, James Berg, wrote this very episode. You know, Stan sat down with us and he told us some really mind-blowing things about the set. Most of them very positive, but I think some of the things are going to shock you. No, he's also

a little like Blanche, I might add, because he had to have been 12 when he was a writer because he looks 25 years old. He's so handsome. And I made the mistake of asking him how old he is. And he got mad at me. But I was like, but I was like, Stan, I'm only asking you because you're so good looking. What's your secret? Literally, literally. Wow. But he's amazing. The deep dive is really fun. We're going to do more of these interviews as they become possible to do. So I'm excited to do this interview as our deep dive today. All right. So girl, getting into the episode, give us the details on this episode.

It aired November 16th, 1985. It was written by James Berg and Stan Zimmerman. Well, look, let's talk about what was going on in the world that very week. So this is right from the front page of the New York Times. This was just three days before the airing of this episode. So on November 13th, 1985, in Tolima, Colombia, I'm going to try to say this right. The Nevado del Ruiz stratovolcano erupted after 69 years of dormancy. And get this, this caught

the nearby towns completely unprepared, even though volcanological organizations, which apparently are things. They are. Volcanological organizations had warned. What are you? I'm a volcanologist. I'm a volcanologist. Oh, can you fit all those letters on your business card? No, I cannot. I cannot. I can't.

I cannot. Can we just say, I'm 12. The volcano erupted after 69 years. But yet, the volcanological organizations had warned the government to evacuate the area after they detected volcanic activity two months earlier, and they didn't do it. And it was a

huge fucking tragedy. Basically, what I learned was the lava erupting from the volcano, it melted the mountain's glaciers and sent, quote, mudflow, landslides, and debris flows down its slopes. And it engulfed a town called Amero, where it killed more than 20,000 of its 29,000 inhabitants, making it the fourth deadliest volcanic event recorded since 1500. This is horrific. And also, like, the plot of the movie Dante's Peak, right? With Pierce Brosnan? Is that the name of it? I don't know, but you...

I love that you love all these kind of like late 90s, early 2000s. They used to put me to sleep. I'm like, oh, I have anxiety. Let me watch people die in a natural disaster. Let me watch an overgrown crocodile fed by Betty White. Anyway, it was a big week in the world this week. It was a big week, culminating with our favorite Saturday night show. I know. Saturday night show. Saturday night show.

We open with Sophia sneaking out of the kitchen with popcorn and a charcuterie plate. So wait a second. It's a saran wrap charcuterie plate. What on earth is Sophia doing with a plate of meat and cheese in it? She does a good job at piquing our curiosity because we're about to find out. Now, Dorothy comes around the corner, cutting her off at the pass, looking lovely after her shoulder implant surgery. Yes.

She recovered from that nicely. She really did. Bouncy? I have to say, I enjoy...

Overall, I thought Dorothy was well-appointed this entire show. I've been so hard on her clothes. No, girl, I disagree with you. Really? Because we're going to see her sitting on the couch in that sweater in a couple minutes. She completely disappears into the sofa. Wait, the schmata or the green turtleneck? The schmata, the one that she's wearing right now. Before we get there, I actually had to go back for a fourth viewing to try to plot the day and night of it all.

And I think I have figured it out because the thing that gets us hooked up is this is a week long visit by Alma. So I think I have it. But it is interesting that Dorothy, I swear to God, must be hungover because she is in that. When we first see her wearing that, it's not morning. No. She's been lounging all day in her hungover wear. Because Sophia is wearing a floor length denim nightgown with a starched collar. It's amazing.

The mixing of the patterns, it's very Southwestern. She kind of looks like she's going line dancing, but it is a floor-length denim nightgown. So we don't know, is it the morning, is it the night? Dorothy comes out in full sweater. So Dorothy stops her with her shoulder implant augmentation surgery. She's a linebacker, that one. Ma, where are you going with all that food? I'm stashing it away from Rose's mother. She's on a special diet.

I hate those people. You turn your back for a second, boom, boom, your food is gone. Anything on your plate is suddenly on their diet. So Dorothy grabs the food and leads them back into the kitchen. I just wanted to say that like this is the era. It's like probably pre-South Beach diet, but it's definitely like the Atkins diet. Like and me having been on all of these diets, the SlimFast, this was definitely the age of SlimFast. Yeah, Atkins

was later. That was in the 90s. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like a shake for breakfast and a shake for lunch and then a sensible dinner. And we are going to find out. We're getting so ahead of ourselves. And I'm excited about it. But like the supplements that Blanche took, like I looked up bee pollen. I'm like, why the fuck is she taking bee pollen? But apparently bee pollen helps rev your metabolism. Oh, why am I not sucking on a honeycomb? The next time you see I'm going to be bees in my office.

I'm going to have like, I'm going to be in full B outfit. He's a farm. Where did Patrick go? He bought a beef farm. He just drinks the air up there. He's so skinny now. Oh my God. So Zafia, being an old person, is like, no girl, I know a lot of old people. Come on, Ma. You haven't even met Rose's mother. I know a lot of old people. They're all the same. They're cranky. They're demanding. They repeat themselves. They're cranky. They're demanding.

It's great writing, Jen Simone. It's a great joke. I wrote it here. And it's also great delivery. Now, she's brilliant because she stops after the second they're cranky to pause to let the audience get it. They're all the same. They're cranky. They're demanding. They repeat themselves. They're cranky. They're demanding. So in that gap, the audience starts to laugh. So I'm like, yeah, that's an experienced Queens community theater actress. I

I was thinking, you know what I want to do a deep dive on? I want to do a deep dive on finding out the shows that Estelle Getty did in like Queens Public Access Theater because she did them forever and ever. We should like read the reviews. We should do a whole deep dive on that. Oh no, this is bringing out, as Blanche later says in one, this brings out the artist in me. What?

with the virgins. Like, I want to recreate all of Estelle Getty's plays here in New York. Oh my God. That would be like, what a great one woman show. What a great ticket. Jennifer Simard as Estelle Getty. That would be perfect. Oh my God. Dorothy is asking her like,

Ma, what makes you think she's old? She's the same age as you. So how come she ordered her a wheelchair at the airport, a special meal on the plane, and put an oxygen tank in the garage? Maybe she's a disabled welder on a special diet. I think the most interesting part of this whole scene is actually seeing the second charcuterie board on the table or the

I guess the original charcuterie board from which the saran-wrapped charcuterie plate. I just want to know that, like, Sophia's meal prepping for the week is making, like, five charcuterie plates and saran-wrapping them all. Like, a charcuterie plate? Yeah. So we jump to the living room where Blanche is saying goodbye to Dirk.

Dirk does not look the single bit heterosexual to me in this moment. He doesn't. But you know what I'd like to do? I'd like to do these next few lines. Oh, sure. The way they did them. So your left arm, Patrick, needs to be perched on the door and my right arm. Yeah. That's natural. Everyone does that. Whenever we see him, he's wearing like Miami Vice. Put your arm back up. Let me see that sexiness. Look at me.

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, turn off the recording. I can't take it. Well, he's also dressed. Nobody looked straight heterosexual in the 80s because all those men, he was wearing that 80s exercise look. Yes. They made them wear those headbands. I know. What? Well, I mean...

No, I know. The leg warmers and the headbands. We also learned there. It was the uniform. It was the uniform. We learned they're coming from a jazzercise class. Not the straightest thing I've heard today. No, jazzercise in 85 was huge. It was actually the highest form of exercise in the country. It generated over $40 million in 1985 in America. Jazzercise, the business is still a thriving business.

To this day. Yeah, it is. Isn't that wild? Probably in its heyday. I know. There's always that fad, right? Yeah. You remember Zumba classes? Of course. Yeah. In the 90s, step aerobics was a thing. Kickboxing. Yeah. Walking. Drinking alcohol. Wait, no, what? But anyway, they're like this at the door. Yes. Right? And she's like...

Like, well, thanks again for the ride home, Dirk. I'll see you at Tuesday's Jazzercise class. And he says... I'll see you then. Okay. Unless I see you before then. I mean, if you wouldn't mind, maybe we could go out. My Dirk, did I just hear you ask me for a date? Yeah, def, I heard him from here. Oh.

So, Blaine, you think maybe we could have dinner Saturday night? Well, why don't I just check my date book and I'll let you know. Let me check my date book and I'll let you know. Well played. I felt very much... Remember that book, The Rules? Yes, it was very much The Rules. You never let... I mean, I don't know if this was in there. Don't be too eager. Yes, because I am an eager beaver. Right. You know what I mean? If I had to go back out into the dating pool, I would fail every single time. Let me tell you. No, it's okay, everyone.

Have we told them yet? Cheesecakes, I'm going through a very painful and unexpected divorce. That's okay. But you're also like thriving in every other way. Well, every other way and in this way. This is actually an interesting episode to do. I'm going to take the car here. I'm going to go off to the side. If this was Jillian, we'd go. We're going to pull over. Exactly. Exactly.

I'm going through a very unexpected divorce after 20 years of marriage. So I'm sort of Dorothy Spornack on the one hand, but sort of Blanche on the other. Yeah. And I'm thriving, yes. You're doing good. I mean, my God. And I will say this. This is a very interesting episode because I've dated, since I've been separated, I've probably dated three lovely gentlemen. Yeah. And they're all younger than me. Yeah. Well, that's no shock because you look 20 years younger than you are. Oh, thank you. But yeah, but they're like 5, 15, and the most recent guy was almost 25 years younger than me. Holy shit. Yeah.

Wow. Just a date? Nothing? No. Of course not. Anyway, she's still got it. Anyway. By the way, I did a deep dive-ish on this guy named Dirk, the actor. His name is Charlie Hill. Interesting guy. He got a PhD in psychology with honors from Auburn University. He worked as a psychologist for many years before pursuing an acting career, and he was pretty successful.

successful. He did 73 episodes of a TV show called Texas. Not Dallas, but a TV show called Texas. They say he's probably best remembered for playing Dirk on the Golden Girls. So the 73 episodes, I guess, weren't that memorable. But he eventually left the business and moved to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, where he served as a deacon, a lay preacher, and a Bible study teacher at the Jackson Hole Baptist Church. And he died on May 23rd, my sister's birthday, 2010. He was pretty young. He was pretty young. And he also, all I'm going to

say is he had a lot of family, but he never got married. So I'm just going to put that out there. That's all I'm going to say about it. You want to date Dirk. I kind of want to date Dirk. Until... You'll be like, I just checked my date book and you know what? I can do it. Yeah. You know what? I'm free. You know what? I'm absolutely free. Why wait till Saturday? I know.

What are you doing tonight? Are we on a date right now? Is this our date? It's the first date? All right. So Blanche shuts the door. All right. And by the way, every woman I know had that bag in 1985. I had that bag. Really? Yes. That canvas bag with the leather and it came in all different colors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to have it with this thing we called happy skirts. What were those? They were just little circle skirts. What? They were basically all different. Happy skirts. Happy skirts. Happy skirts.

Oh, my God. All right. If you've got a picture of you with a happy skirt, put it in the Facebook group. You know, maybe I'll look. Okay. I bet I do. Okay. But anyway, you know, she turns around. She's like, well, isn't this an interesting turn of events? Gosh, I just don't know what I'm going to do. You know, he is a little bit younger than I am. So Blanche is sauntered over to the couch where Dorothy is sitting. And when Blanche says that line about Dirk being a couple years younger than her, Dorothy just like literally does a take to the audience. Classic B. It's a classic B.

classic B and it's also I was saying like Dorothy biting her tongue might be my favorite Dorothy when you know like there's that she wants to say something but she's just not gonna do it yet I love that Dorothy that's everywhere in this yeah yeah she's very good at that here so now Rose enters with her mother and Rose is telling her mother to watch her like for minute one when we see this relationship Rose is very overprotective she said mom enters and Rose says at a girl and mom says yeah watch your stepmother that's a girl right like so infantilizing I know but

I know. I know. And the mom says, I haven't been a little girl since 1912. Right. But they've dressed her like it's 1912. Russian winter 1912. Like when Napoleon invades Miami, Alma will be fine. I was going to say, why am I the only one who's always clocking that it's Miami? She's in Miami. And she's about to go to Texas. I know. She's going to Houston. Yeah. Miami and Houston. What do I need to bring? A wool coat?

gloves for sure. Definitely as many hats as I can fit in this bag. I know. So I'm going to call her Alma. We'll learn that in a few seconds. But Alma, her mother, is played by actress Jeanette Nolan. Do you want to know some fun facts about her? Please. So she was only 10 years older than Betty White when they filmed this. Oh, wow. They love doing that on this show, right? She played Lady Macbeth to Orson Welles' Macbeth in that film that he did, which...

was a terrible film and it rightly so got pretty bad reviews. No way. Fortunately, she got bad reviews, but it just wasn't a good film. Wow. But I'm like, okay, credit. But my favorite fact about her is she was one of three women that Alfred Hitchcock hired to voice Norman's mother in Psycho. Oh my God. She came in to record some screams and to record those couple of lines and he had all the actresses do it. And the idea was to give Norman's mother this very

vaguely uncanny ambiguous voice which emphasized how haunting she sounded in Norman's mind. Yeah. If we could just play it here that would be amazing. Oh yeah. So you can hear these three actresses because now that I know this actress I can hear her voice but kind of sort of. Oh wow. Talk about Alfred Hitchcock's genius. I mean that is an incredible idea. Totally. Because it is creepy AF and you don't know why. Yeah. But now we know why. Oh my God that's wild. They're probably watching me. I'll let them.

Let them see what kind of a person I am. I'm not even gonna swat that fly. I hope they are watching. They'll see. They'll see and they'll know and they'll say, "Why, she wouldn't even harm a fly."

This actress, I was so inspired by her. I went and watched the Columbo episode that she's in because I know our friend Jillian loves Columbo. Yes. So do I. And it was double shock. And she's hilarious. Oh, my God. So, yes, she did Lady Macbeth, but this chick can do comedy. She was very funny. Go watch it. Lady Macbeth, I'd like to see yours. Do you know what? What? I was witch number three. You were? I loved it. Oh, I bet you were. I bet you did. I was so good. Patrick, get out of here. I was so good. I was so good.

Get out of here. Well, this is one of my favorite moments in the episode because they come in and so Rose is shouting, introducing Blanche, Dorothy, and Sophia to her mom. I want you all to meet my mother, Mrs. Lindstrom. This is Blanche, and this is Dorothy, and Sophia. Very nice to meet you. Tell me, how was your trip? It was just fine. What?

Which one of them is hard of hearing? I thought that was such a good slapstick-y joke. It was. It was perfect. And of course, Rose tells her no one. They codependently just didn't want her to have to strain to hear them. And she's like, but there's nothing wrong with my ears. And Rose, not listening at all. Of course there isn't. Now you sit down right here and I'll fix you a little snack.

Now, I'm going to say something controversial. Okay. I do think that Rose is over-parenting her mother in certain moments. And in other moments, I think Rose is fully justified in her concern. We'll get there. Okay. Fair enough. Okay. So Blanche asks Alma how long she's going to be staying. And Rose answers for her. We get it. It's very over the top.

you know, like, and especially Sophia is like, is your name Mrs. Lindstrom? Like doesn't like that Rose is sort of talking down to a woman that is the same age as Sophia. I get it. We have another excellent setup for a joke here. Mrs. Lindstrom, how would you like a little tour of our home while Rose is fixing that snack? Oh, I don't think this is a good time for that Blanche. Mother's had a big day and I don't want her to get over tired. Well, she can skip the East wing, Rose.

Very good writing. It's very good writing. So anyway, they exit to, you know, infantilize her even more and go take a nap. But I was going to say, like, Elma's putting up a fight about taking a nap. And she's like, I'm not a kid. Like, I'm not a child. I don't need a nap. I'm like, Elma, speak for yourself, girl. Yeah. You know what I mean? I love a nap. Me too. Because if you came dressed like it was 1910, my bad.

When I'm an old person, I'm not going to try to act like I don't love a nap. No. You know what I mean? Listeners, Patrick and I had plans to have dinner tonight. I canceled for X, Y, Z reasons. Tell them what time dinner was. Dinner was what? Like at 5 o'clock. 6.30 or something. But

It was right when we're done recording. But I do know I'm going home and you know what I'm doing? Are you going to go to sleep? I'm going to go to bed. Of course you are. You want to know why you're going to go to bed? Because you are one half of a team carrying like a $19 million musical on your goddamn shoulders. You walked that thing back from Chicago. Okay, so sit down for five minutes and have some water. Thank you very much. You're welcome. One thing about Sophia in this episode is I want to give her an award for like the New York Accent Award for every time she says the word H-E-R. How does she say it?

Yeah. Too bad Rose won't get off her back. Too bad Rose won't get off her back. Won't get off her. Yeah.

Yeah, too bad Rose won't get off her back. Oh, God. Now we cut back to Blanche, who ever since you said in like episode two, Blanche answers in full narcissism. I know this episode is called like Blanche and the Younger Man. I keep forgetting about that storyline. I do, but it's the A storyline. I know. And that's what I love about it. The B storyline doesn't matter a tick to Blanche. No, it doesn't matter at all.

At all. No, all she cares about is herself. And I love it. Like, she's nailing it. It's exactly right. Oh, God. You know, they're on a completely different topic. She says, you know what I think? You think she's going to contribute to the conversation? Yes, yes. You know what I think? I think I can handle this relationship with Dirk. I'm going out with him Saturday night. And then Dorothy's like, was there ever any doubt? And Blanche says, Momentarily. This is strictly off the record, but Dirk's nearly five years younger than I am. Oh, God.

And what, Blanche? Dog ears? It's so... And I just want... This is utterly iconic. It's one of the great Golden Girls moments of all time. So good. And then Blanche goes on to give a long speech about how, you know, romance and the love of her life was nearly hers. But this is one of those moments where Dorothy knows what's coming. Yeah. And again, we have this great Dorothy Spornack, Bea Arthur physical comedy moment because Blanche is saying...

Something really special, something fragile and rare. I've only felt this once before. So Dorothy just like jams her head into her own arm. Because when Blanche is telling these stories, she's not telling them to the room. She's telling them to herself. All she wants to do is relive her past and present glory. Basically, Bea Arthur and Estelle Getty, or their characters, I should say, they do what I used to do in church. When the priest would do the homily, I would fully lay down on my parents' laps and take a nap. It's nap time. Right. Right.

Because it's not for you. It's not for me. What the hell sins am I going to confess at five? Listen up, sinners. I got to go to bed. Exactly. But she continues, it was my 17th summer. I was working behind the cosmetics counter at the Rexall drugstore. I was stuck on the Maybelline display when I heard this booming voice say, Excuse me, ma'am. Where are the cuticle scissors?

Cuticle sizzles.

And Sophia takes tiny mouth moment to fall asleep. Sophia falls asleep now. Sophia was the one saying nobody around here needs a nap two seconds ago. Guess who's exhausted? Well, it's Catholic priest homily time. I know. Or Blanche Devereaux. Oh, my God. Dorothy says, please, Blanche. Sidney Sheldon tells shorter stories. And for you younger listeners, Sidney Sheldon was this famous author in the 80s. There's only one famous Arthur here. Her name is Beatrice. That's right. So,

author. And the thing, like, Sidney Sheldon's novels all got turned into movies of the week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I love about Sidney, just a quick detour, Sidney Sheldon was over 50 when he detoured into this part of his career. Wow. Writing these romantic novels. He was known for creating Heart to Heart, which is a show I'd love to cover.

with you. Oh, yeah. So good. He won an Oscar for writing The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer in 1947. Wow. And I didn't know this about Monsieur Sheldon, but he was a writer of Broadway plays in the 1930s. Oh, I think I did know that. I did not know that, which I love. And anyway, like our gals, he was known for writing about determined women who persevere in a tough world run by hostile men. Can I tell you something I learned about... No. Thank you. Good night. Good night. Yes, what? So,

Something I learned about Broadway in the 1930s, because forever ago when I was looking up on IBDB, which is the Internet Broadway database. And it always autocorrects to IMDB. Every single time. Every time. I was looking up Hamilton for something. There was another Hamilton in the 1930s. It was a play called Hamilton about Alexander Hamilton. All of

the women actresses in the play were credited as Mrs. Patrick Hines, Mrs. Steve Tipton. Like, that's how the actresses were credited on IBDV. Oh, with their husband's name. Yes. Isn't that wild? What about divorcees like me? They were burned at the stake. Oh, wow. So...

We call them spinsters, Jennifer. Oh, right. So Blanche is saying that, like, she's not going to make the same mistake with Dirk that she made with Andy. She's not going to miss her chance this time. Right, right. So Blanche exits in full narcissism. Dorothy asks Sophia, haven't we heard this story from her before? And Sophia says, yes, but last time it was Woolworth, a toenail clipper, and John Cameron Swayze. Which I...

we only, like, thank God for our researcher who looked up who that was. John Cameron Swayze was apparently a news commentator and game show panelist in the 40s and 50s and is also Patrick Swayze's sixth cousin once removed. Yeah. How do you even get that far? I mean, when I heard Swayze, I was like, oh, must be related to Patrick Swayze, but there can only be one Swayze. But I

I wrote down like it's wild that we live in it on a planet where at one point in time, right, being a professional game show panelist was like a real job. Like people did that. They did. Like Betty White did that for a while. Yeah. You know what I mean?

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So, Patrick, we're at the point now where I had my first timeline issue. Oh. Okay, so I said, this is what I have written. So I think it's later the same day or late afternoon the next day. Right, right, right, right, right. But it's late afternoon.

It's probably the next day, late afternoon. It's late afternoon and we can tell because Dorothy's in another nightgown. She's in a nightgown. It's probably four in the afternoon. Everyone else is fully dressed. Fully dressed. But hangover Hattie is just, you know. Anyway, so there's a woman on TV yelling, inhale good, exhale me back. And Blanche is on the floor exercising to a TV and VCR that rivals the bar cart from that episode we did. Yeah. It's like the size of like a trunk, you know. Right in the forefront of the. I know.

And I have to say this too, but Eddie Rue's figure looks really good. I gotta like describe what she's wearing here. So she's in a workout outfit, right? She's wearing a long sleeve yellow blouse, question mark? Yeah, like a shirt tied up and like around the waist. And like the sleeves rolled up over a striped leotard, white tights, pink.

knee warmers and white sneakers. It's quite the outfit. And I wrote, because Dorothy's laying on the couch in like a blue and black plaid nightgown. Right. Like you cannot tell where the couch begins and Dorothy ends. She is in once again the most shapeless outfit you can imagine. I know you've mentioned that like it's nice to get to wear something like that on a show because it's cold and you want to be comfortable on set. But I'm like, but

B, everyone else is walking around in clothes that looks really good on them. And you just are like in these shapeless nightgowns and sweaters at all time. Well, the nightgown I do take issue with because I don't understand it at the time of the day. I mean, it's because it's not- Maybe B insisted on it. I don't know. My character would be wearing a nightgown. It definitely feels that way.

It's 2 in the afternoon. Or that's her actual nightgown and she was sleeping in her room. She's like, you know what? This is good. Where's the blue and black check? I'll take that one. I'll take that one. But what I was going to say was Blanche is doing this move in this workout where she's sitting on the floor. She's leaned back at like a 45 degree angle and she's got her feet off the ground. That's a hard move. It's an ab workout. Eddie Rue McClanahan is really, she's doing it. Listen, white tights show everything. I know.

And how cute are you, by the way, that you said knee warmers? What are they called? They're called leg warmers. Knee warmers. You're adorable. I'm so cute. You're the cutest. Thank you.

Yes, but Dorothy's looking at her and the woman on the TV, which is a little creepy. But I want to just say to Dorothy, like, can you have a little self-respect, Dot? Like, Blanche is 55 years old working out. Like, I'm not saying you have to work out. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying it's four in the afternoon. You're already asleep on the couch in your nightgown. It's a little sad. It's sort of like the mean jokes that Stan makes about her are kind of true. There's a story there. That's the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. Dorothy says, the only time I get in that position is when I give birth. Ha, ha, ha.

Oh, Dorothy. Blanche is just like, okay. She's like, oh, my back. Dorothy's like, are you all right? And this is where we find out that Blanche is going all out. No pain, no gain. She's feeling the pressure, essentially, of dating this younger man. That he is used to a trim body with good tone. Now, Blanche looks good, right? She's already looked good. We don't know what day they went to jazzercise and how many days she's got to get herself in shape. But I'm like, Blanche, honey, how much toning do you think you're going to get done in the three days between Tuesday and Saturday? Right. You know what I mean?

Either you got it or you don't. We find out later she's turned back the hands of time. I know.

That's a lot in three days. It's so good. Anyway, so Dorothy's making fun of her saying, you know, when they defrost Walt Disney, he'll have someone to go out with. Wait, I did a little deep dive on this. Do you know this story? So I had heard this too, like the joke that Walt Disney was cryogenically frozen. It's kind of a crazy story. Walt Disney died on December 15th, 1966, literally weeks after going to the hospital with neck pain and discovering that he had a very aggressive form of lung cancer that was basically

untreatable at that point. So, like, he, like, went to the hospital because his neck hurt. He's dead 34 days later. Wow. And they say that, like, the rumors began almost immediately that he was cryogenically frozen and buried deep under Disneyland, like, either under Cinderella's castle or the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. And the...

Speculation has gone on for decades, but members of the Disney family have confirmed that his end-of-life wishes were to be cremated and that he was cremated two days after his passing, which was just 34 days after he found the cancer. And his ashes are interned at Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Glendale, California. He's not been cryogenically frozen. I would have bet money that he was. I would have too, because that's been the lore. It's like common knowledge to me. Yeah. So anyway, it's not true about Walt Disney, but back to the episode. Dorothy!

Dorothy is rightfully saying to Blanche, if you feel you've got to go through all of this, like what kind of relationship can you have? Because like she would agree with that. She's taking all kinds of pills and supplements and fish oils and whatever. But Blanche says, like, we have to remember Blanche is a total narcissist and like knows it, loves it about herself. She says, a youthful relationship, a relationship that I want. Dorothy, Dirk is the youngest man I've ever dated. If I'm going to keep him, I got to give it all I got.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I got some road work to do. Hi, Blanche. You look terrific. Thanks. Blanche looks terrible. Betty White, the comedic assassin that she is, she's like, hi, Blanche. You look terrific. Blanche looks terrible. Whack. Like, the whack doesn't happen until the end of the sentence. And if it came too soon, if it came like, Blanche looks. Blanche. Blanche looks terrible. Blanche looks terrible. That's why it's funny.

Rose is really stressed out, you know? She is. But when we get mean Rose, there's something going on. So Dorothy is saying she looks terrible because all she eats is bee pollen. And Rose says, I know. And isn't it ironic that all the bees look so good? In that not, she's not dumb. She's just naive. Right. And I'm with you, Patrick, too. Like lately, I've been like, God, she is annoying. Yes. See? So annoying. And everyone says I'm a Rose. Well, if everywhere you go, there you are.

Maybe the problem is you. Dorothy asked her, Rose, what are you doing home? And she tells Dorothy that she came home early to be with mother. And Dorothy lets her know, no, no, no. My mother took her to the track. Now.

We need to pause on this for a minute because as has been made clear in many, many episodes so far, we're going to learn in like season five that Dorothy had a gambling addiction, specifically betting on the horses at the track, right? Right. Maybe that's why she's in the nightgown. It's like a straightjacket. I got a theory. So Dorothy has this gambling addiction, which means she can't be going to the track because presumably she's working her program. You know what I mean? She's at home working the program. But I think it's kind of...

I think it's kind of like if I'm with a friend who's in AA, I'm not drinking in front of that person. But Sophia is always going to the track. Well, I wonder if maybe Sophia has a problem but just hasn't. Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe she doesn't, but she can handle it. She can handle it. Exactly. That's what we're led to believe. Exactly. So Rose is scandalized by this revelation that her mom is at the track with her.

with Sophia, but she's not like all that worked up yet. And Dorothy is like, girl, she's fine. She's with my mother. And Rose is like, yeah, but your mother is different. Like my mother's had a very simple life. And like Rose is saying it's past dark. My mother is out. She's worried. And Dorothy's trying to be like, you're overreacting. I am totally on Rose's side.

I am too, but the other strange thing about this, it's getting dark, but gosh darn it, they love their orange juice as a late-day cocktail. They go into the kitchen. I know, I know. They get glasses and they just... They just start drinking orange juice. They pour themselves some sponsorless orange juice. Can we make it a screwdriver at least? At least. No?

I know. Okay. Yeah, you're on Rose's side here. I'm on Rose's side. Like the moms, these two 80-year-old women are at the track by themselves in downtown Miami where it's getting dark out. I'm like, does everyone else hate their mom? You know what I mean? Like to me and Rose, the only two people that are like, I don't think that would be where I would want my mom to be. Right. And when you think about where we started with Sophia can't control her, what she says because of her own health issues. I mean, we're trusting her an awful lot, aren't we? Yeah. I'm just saying I'm with Rose on this one. Okay. Okay.

So we hear Sophia's voice from the other room. Hello, anyone home? And Rose is, oh, mother, are you all right? And Sophia's like, she's fine. I'm 50 bucks in the hole. Look, Rose, I won $400. I told you she was all right. Congratulations, Alma. Mom, I'll be in the living room in case you decide to explain where you got the $50 that you just lost.

You know, I think about this all the time because we're going to learn that Dorothy has a really rich sister. Gloria, I think is her name. She's coming up, I think. She's coming up, but it's kind of like, why is Sophia living with Dorothy, who's a substitute teacher, clearly has no money. And Gloria's not at least sending an allowance to Sophia. And so she's got to be stealing money out of Dorothy's purse. Like 50 bucks is a lot of money. So Alma, the $400 winner, asks,

asks Sophia how late the mall is open because she wants to, quote, go get wild. She offers to buy Sophia some of that bikini underwear.

Sophia, having tried the bikini underwear, doesn't like it. She says it rides up on her. So that leaves Rose and her mom in the kitchen. And of course, we still have hovering Rose doing her thing. Yeah. And, you know, and Alma's kind of had it. I don't want a cup of tea. I want to go out and have fun. Mother, you know how you get when you get tired. You're liable to lose your balance and break a hip. That's exactly how it happened the last time. Rosie, I broke my hip ice skating.

Do you want to go back to the hospital? Did you have fun the last time? I had more fun than I'm having here with you. Mother! Stop mothering me! You make me sorry I came!

She's like, listen, stop mothering me. You make me sorry that I came. Listen, I want to take a little detour here to talk about Alma a bit. Yeah. And the wardrobing. Oh, sure. Please. So whether it's Alma or Sophia, there's this thing where they always dress the old ladies to look like what they think old ladies look like. And it just doesn't work that way anymore. Or like what old ladies dressed like the year these ladies were born.

Correct. Because, so specifically I want to talk about the pillbox hats and the cameos. Because we've seen Sophia wear a cameo in other episodes. What's a cameo? It's a brooch. It's a brooch with like a bust of a woman usually on it. So a pill hat, it's a small brimless female hat with a rounder

cylindrical crown, oval or round. And it's English name pillbox. It's because of that, because of the resemblance to small boxes in which pills were once sold. Like as literal as it sounds. Yeah. This is weird. One of the prototypes of the pillbox hat can be considered the headdress of the rulers of ancient Rome. Now, it's believed that the female version of the pill hat was invented in the 30s

for actress Greta Garbo. Oh, wow. And the popularity of those hats peaked in the 1960s with Jacqueline Kennedy-Omasis. Yes, of course. All right. So now cameos, these were very popular in the Victorian era through the early 1950s with many pieces being classified as mourning jewelry and mourning M-O-U-R-M.

Oh, uh-huh. Cameos with flowers, adorning a woman's dress were popular during the 1920s through the 1950s. And the majority of cameos face right. So if you find a left-facing cameo, meaning the woman's face to the left, it's considered more unusual. And I looked closely and it looks like Alma's is the traditional cameo facing right. Oh, wow. I did find that interesting. Yeah. And I was thinking back to like, okay, so...

This is the 1980s. And then in the 50s, Alma was probably the age that Rose is now, you know? And that's the 50s. So 20s, 30s, 40s, she would have been 30, 40, 50 years old for cameos. And then the pillbox hats, those were really popular in the 60s. So it's just funny to me that costume designers hold these things as indicative of age. It is interesting because what she probably would be wearing something similar to what Rose is wearing.

Like she would just be wearing normal clothes. So I don't know. This is going to be a long episode, but I found that very interesting. Yeah, that is very interesting. I love it. Later that night on our timeline, the timeline. And I'll start you off, Patrick, if you want. But I said later that night. And I must say, I love Dorothy's green cowl neck sweater. I know.

I've got a costume note here as well, because Rose is looking out the door for her mother. She's changed her dress. She didn't change into like a house dress or a nightgown. She just changed into another business dress. And she came home early. Yeah. And she's had a few jobs on this show. I can't keep it straight where she works at this point. We haven't even gotten to Enrique Mas yet.

But she was wearing like a really cute fitted red dress when she came home from work. And now she's wearing that like cool, like blue with the pink belt or whatever. But like, it's the same night. It's as though she spilled something on her dress and had to change. No, Cheesecakes, when I said I had to go back and watch the episodes strictly for timeline, this is wild. I know, I know. Because I was so confused. So we find out that having been scolded by her mother, Rose allowed her mom and Sophia to go out shopping at the mall. And now she's like waiting for them to come back.

And Sophia now enters wearing a cameo, so we know she's old. Yes, right. Anyway, oh, Sophia, thank goodness you're home. Where's mother? And Sophia tells her, look, she was feeling lucky, so she wanted to try her hand at high lie. Do you know what that is? Yeah, it's that tennis rackets that look like bananas. Okay, so I looked it up and I was like, I thought it was like a gambling game. No, it's a racquetball. It's a racquetball. It's like tennis rackets that look like bananas. Ha ha ha.

My thing is, like, where is this 80-year-old woman going to find a partner to play this racquetball game in downtown Miami? You know the game that's all the rage now. Is pickleball. Yeah. Like, Rose is upset because her older mother is now roaming a completely foreign city. This is before cell phones. Everyone's like, Rose, you're being crazy. And even Dorothy's like, why didn't you go with her? I'm like, you guys all hate your mother. Like, Rose is absolutely right to be concerned about this. Sophia, you left my mother alone roaming through a strange city?

Who's roaming? She has a bus map, $400, and a Spanish-English dictionary. I can't believe my mother's out riding around on a smelly old bus.

Being pushed around, harassed, and possibly even mugged by hostile teenagers with bad haircuts. Am I insane or is this like totally valid for her to be afraid that her mother's going to get killed? No, you're not insane. And how about a phone call home saying, hey, even though she's a grown up. You're right. It just would have been the polite thing to do. An 80-year-old woman running a city looking for somebody to play a very dangerous sporting game with her. Absolutely.

Maybe if it was Dorothy with her, but Estelle Getty is her peer. They're the same age in this. But she's like alone. She doesn't know how to get home. There's no GPS. Right, but they're grown women. Like I do get it. It wouldn't be better in my estimation. I wouldn't feel safer if she were an 80 year old man. It's like, it's all terrifying.

You know, I'm just saying I'm on Rose's side. OK, so the phone rings and Rose answers it. It's the police. Rose is screaming and she like turns to the room because she had been told earlier, like Dorothy's like your mother is a vital, active woman. Like, don't worry about it. And Rose is like, they picked up my vital, active mother. She was lost and disoriented. What do you say to that? Now, calm down, Rose. I'm going to go with you. No, thanks. You've been quite enough help already.

No, thanks. You've been quite enough help already. Like, really, the way she said it was like, it's that whole like, I'm not so much angry as I am disappointed. It's like it's even worse because she's kind of nice about it. She's assertive. Yeah. She didn't lose her head. No, imagine it was the other way around. And this was Dorothy's line about her mother. She'd be turning over the couch. I was looking back at one of the episodes we did. Well, the one where with the bar cart where she thinks Blanche is...

Oh, yes. You know, stealing Dr. Elliot Clayton. She'd be leaning over her with her finger in her face. You're a slut, Rose. You know why? Because you're a Jezebel.

So Dorothy says, well, I hope Alma's all right. And Sophia, with a great French manicure, says, don't worry about Alma. She's a tough old broad. You know what note I have here? What? I said, I don't know. I'm worried about Alma. I'm worried about Alma. I understand. But you know what? You don't have to worry much longer. I know. Why? Because thank God our A storyline with narcissistic Blanche is back. I wrote Blanche enters in full narcissism. I once again forgot about the storyline. I'm

I'm very invested in Alma's safety. I know, and she is oblivious to all of this. And her delivery, Eddie Rue, McClanahan, goddamn. Who once got drafted into the military. Oh, God. She's like, Dorothy, look at me. Look at me. Dorothy, look at me. I have turned back the hands of time. Since Dirk asked me out, I've dropped 10 years. Why, my face is smooth, my body is taut, and my gears are grinding. I'm sorry.

Blanche with a full face of makeup and a dress that looks like it came right off the curtain rods has never looked older. She's never looked older. She thinks she looks so good. She looks, she's aged herself with clown makeup and a curtain dress. Patrick, look at me. I know.

Look at me, Patrick. I've turned back the hands of time. And she's holding what we can only guess is the bee pollen. She's got a jar of one of the supplements. I've dropped 10 years. Wow, my face is smooth. My body's taut and my gears are grappling.

I just wrote, I completely forgot about this storyline. Yeah. So Dorothy tells her, yeah, yeah, great. But you're still your age. Yes. So the doorbell rings. And of course, it's Dirk. And Blanche is going on and on about how what he sees when he looks at her and how it makes her feel. And anyway, and here is my favorite line of the episode. Okay, this is good. So Blanche says, goodness, I didn't even have time to put on my makeup. Very funny. Yes. And we get a reaction from Dorothy, a face reaction. But this is my favorite line in the episode because it's not supposed to be a laugh line, but it's so funny.

Smart. She says, would you mind waiting out in the van, Dirk? She's like, I love that the writers have Dirk driving a van. It's such a great character development. You know? No, you're right. Like Dirk taking Blanche on the beach. Totally. They're going to have sex in the back of the van on the beach. Totally, totally, totally. He probably lives in the van. Yes, that's where he learned all of his jazzercise routines. But of all the vehicles, of course, it has to be a van. Yeah.

It's perfect. It's the mystery machine of it all. I haven't baked my... You're absolutely right. Blanche asked Dirk to wait in the van. Oh, my God. She didn't comment on it at all. That's why I was like, would you mind waiting out in the van? I'll be with you in just a minute. Well, wait. Speaking of character development, so Blanche and Dirk go off on their date. Next scene, Dorothy is in the kitchen.

the kitchen laying on the floor fixing the sink and I said of course she's the live-in plumber of course she is but also all I said all I said though Patrick here was please Dorothy put on one of those aprons that the million aprons in the house to protect your good cowl neck that's actually a pretty sweater you know but there she is doing her plumbing I know she

Because of course. I'm like, of course. I'm right now imagining her plunging a toilet. You know what I mean? That would save her $75. The logs those bitches are dumping. I wrote, we get like $15

15 episodes where they need a new roof. You know Dorothy knows how to do it. And I take out the garbage. I mean, yes, you know. Why are you getting that guy to do the new roof when Dorothy knows she was born to lay the new roof? Well, with those meat hooks, I'm just, every show, I'm just going to quote all of the lines. Anyway. Oh,

Anyway, Dorothy's saying, you know, her mom's like, you know, what are you doing? She's like, listen, I don't want to come out yet. It's the only peace and quiet I've had in two days. She's like, Blanche is becoming Peter Pan. Rose is turning into Mommy Dearest. So, you know, we get that cute little scene. We're back in the living room. Rose and Alma are back. They're back from the police station. So I love that, like, Rose went to get her mom at the police station and Dorothy's like, you know what? This is a perfect time for me to fix the sink.

Anybody know where the wrench is? And Sophia's holding it. It's the size of her femur. Because I imagine that Sophia just like pulls it out of her purse. She's got their... It would be there, wouldn't it? They were totally safe. Sophia would have wrenched a guy to death on the street if they had come after them. Oh, God. But it's like, you know what? Rose didn't want me to come to the police station. I'm going to make good use of my time. I'm going to go fix the sink finally. They've been asking her all day. Find some peace and quiet.

All right. You take it, Patrick. You take it. They're back from the police station. Alma is very upset. She's saying the cops had no right to take her in. She was just, she waved down the cops asking for directions and they forced her into the car. And then she says, and Rose, you had the audacity to scold your mother in front of everybody at the police station. And I was like, well, shit, Rose, if you did that, that really isn't cool. Well, yeah.

You know what I mean? She's your mother. You cannot take away from people this one thing. You cannot take away people's dignity. Dirk is about to do it at the restaurant in two seconds. Oh, God. I know. In the shitbaggiest way possible. We'll get there in two seconds. So Alma's upset and Rose is saying, Mother, there's no point in talking to you when you're like this, which, by the way, is the most condescending thing you could say to someone.

I mean, there's no point in talking to you. I'm going to do that with you from now on, Patrick. There's no point in talking to you right now. I can't believe Alma didn't punch her own daughter right in the face. I have this tick, too, when people—it's a knee-jerk response people have. They don't mean anything by it. But, like, if you trip or something, they go, oh, be careful. And you're like, it's still an accident. I know, I know. I have two triggers. Jillian Pensavalli will tell you what they both are because, like, we travel together a lot and she sees it. Never one time, never in the history of this planet has an adult human being had untied shoes ever.

and not known it. Never once. It has never happened. Not in the history of the world. You never, ever need to tell a grown human being that their shoes are untied. They know that their shoes are untied. That's number one. Number two, if I'm walking around with a backpack and the backpack is open, I also know that!

I don't even know that! I don't even, don't tell me that! Patrick, there's no use talking to you when you're like this. I'm, okay. What everyone is imagining when they tell you that your shoe is untied is that it's going to get stuck in the escalator at the top. Right. And it's going to rip your foot off. Certain death is on the other side of that untied shoelace. Never tell, please, please, don't ever tell me that my shoes are untied. Or that your backpack's undone. Nope, these things are, they make me crazy. Noted. Got it.

So Rose says that to her mother and she says, Mother, I'll just talk to you in the morning. And Alma says, I won't be here in the morning. I'm leaving early for Houston. Sophia says, I'm going to help her. I'm going to help her pack. Yes. Then I'll see if I can win some of that 400 from her before she leaves. Right. So Rose and Dorothy are alone in the living room and Dorothy wants to talk to Rose daughter to daughter. Daughter to daughter. And by the way, she's been writing something with a pencil at this point. Dorothy, I'm sorry, my shorts are very short. Well, I was going to tell you, but I didn't want to. I didn't want to.

I didn't know if that was too close to shoelaces. You can say anything to me. Okay, great. I don't know if it was this scene or the last scene, but I was trying to see what, you know, because you're led to believe it's either correcting papers or it's her studying French. Or now I'm thinking she's actually trying to figure out handicap racing. Yeah.

Right. That's probably what it is, actually. Oh, my God, you're right. It's slipping back in because we know she's going to fall off the wagon. Yeah, she's going for that trifecta. She's going for the trifecta. Anyway, but she's like, honey. Honey, can I talk to you as one daughter to another? Do you remember way back when we were teenagers? What was the one thing that we wanted most from our mothers? Training bra? Yeah.

Honey, the thing we wanted most was to be treated as adults. But then, as we get older, we turn right around and start treating our mothers like little girls. Honey, all your mother wants to do is be treated like a woman. Is that asking too much?

And this is a very good speech because it's true. It happens. You start to infantilize your parents. You know whose parents loved being infantilized? Mine. Oh, yeah. My mother, when she reached the age where she could justifiably never get out of her rocking chair again, she enjoyed every moment of it. Yeah. I have to say, I think I started that in my 30s. I was doing Spelling Bee with my friend James Monroe Iglehart, Tony Award winner. He was the host of TCO on Broadway. He was our emcee. Oh, my gosh. Well, we should have him here. Yeah.

One million. We love him. We made our debuts together on Broadway. Oh my God. But we used to laugh because we used to have dinner together in our green room almost every two show day. It just became a running gag where we're like,

James, throw out my trash. Because I didn't want to get up off the couch. And he would. He's the nicest person. And then we'd laugh. And then he'd be doing his own thing. And if I was like, if I wasn't getting enough attention, full Blanche Devereaux. And he just burst out laughing. I was like, pay attention to me. And he would put out his magazine. I'm sorry. Yes. He was my show husband. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. He's the best. He is the best.

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So we're back in the bedroom and Sophia is still gambling. But she's getting beat by Alma. And I love to know that Sophia can lose at cards. Remember like the episode with Dorothy where she would like, Dorothy would throw a teacup across the room or whatever. It's like Alma is really good. We're going to learn why, but Alma's really good at cards. And Sophia's not as good. She keeps beating Sophia. It's good for her. Yeah. It's good for her. So Rose comes in, asks Sophia to leave. And Rose sits down with her mom and basically says, I know I drive you crazy, but...

It's just because I love you so much. You know, after Daddy died, I just thought I'd never get over it. And Charlie, well, there's not a day goes by that I don't think about him. And now that you're getting older, I'm afraid I'm going to lose you too. I understand, Rosie. But stopping me from living...

isn't going to stop me from dying. You know what? That kind of took my breath away, that line. I mean, I lost my mother. Yeah. And we've talked about that in this. And now it's probably a good time to say this. Very soon after this episode, Betty White lost her mother. But even more poignantly, about three days maybe before they filmed this episode, Bea Arthur lost her mother. Yeah. And they're about to have a very beautiful scene in the kitchen. And you can kind of see Bea Arthur choking up when Estelle compliments her as being good. I'm going to cry just being a good daughter. Oh, I know. Did you get that?

Real tears. Look at that. You're getting that, Tony, this year. Whether it's in here or whether it's a couple blocks that way. And I can cry out loud at the same time. Or I can stop it and let you cry. Anyway.

oh my god it's a gift you give to all of us oh my god she can do it all oh my god but you know but it's really quite beautiful these are real women like all of us real human beings who have families and lives and pain and mourning and it's also channel it through their art because they also have jobs so like her mother died three days ago in real life and she had to come to work and do okay girl i am no i love you no i know this i

told you we've been through this like this is my mom's and I show yeah yeah which is this is a beautiful gift for me I feel like a lot of the cheesecakes feel that way you know what I mean every person I met that I've been talking to about this podcast or like I watched it every episode with my mom or my grandma well that makes me so happy yeah so yeah make me a channel of your peace all right okay

So we're back in the kitchen with Dorothy and Sophia. Sophia's setting the table and Dorothy is telling her to be careful with her. It's Dorothy's best china. Really ugly. I actually thought it was really nice. I kind of, I liked it because it looked like Blanche's wallpaper. Why am I so bitchy? I know.

I'm going to take it back. No, no, no. That's so... No, keep it. That is so funny. You know, it's taste. I like the china that's like just a nice silver rim. Yes. I like a very clean... Like a pottery barn kind of set. No, no. Like, I love... Well, I'm going to go fuck myself. Why don't you go fuck yourself? If that's okay with everybody. No.

Just a nice, clean, I'll talk about the china I like. Nice white bone china with just a nice silver can be used for any holiday. I was trying to mansplain the kind of china that you liked right to you, right to your face. So what kind do you like? You like the one in this show, which is just covered in floral? You know why? Lesbians.

And I love a lesbian. But Dorothy is saying, you got it for me for my wedding. Don't you remember? And Sophia says, how could I forget? I dragged it all the way over here for you from Sicily. So you could only do what? Go and get divorced on me. I should have got you something returnable like a donkey. Samard, I'm not even looking at my notes. I just know the speech. But listen, I know the speech because it stung me like one of those bees that you're now keeping out there. I will suck the life out of any bee if it loses me 15 calories. Oh.

And then, of course, it gets poignant on a very special golden girl. She's Dorothy's like, you know, I've eaten through a lot of great times on these plates. Yes. And, you know, this is what we were talking about. Sophia says. Without my hair, I've been thinking a lot about the two of us. What do you mean? The one one thing you never do is treat me like an old lady. You treat me like a person. I appreciate that. You're a good daughter, Dorothy. I'm overwhelmed.

I don't know what to say. I'll tell you what you could say. You could say I don't owe you the $50. Ma, you are a crazy lady. And I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you too, pussycat. Right now, you know, Bea Arthur and Estelle Getty have a moment where Dorothy is just like, Ma, I love you. I love you. I love you. Yeah. You know, but you're crazy. And so I love you too, pussycat. And it's very genuine because, you know, if you've

about it, they haven't known each other that long in real life. And I'm sure Estelle Getty probably knew what was going on with her. How do you handle that as an actor in that moment? It depends. You know, there's a school that you don't bring your stuff to work and depends on the relationship you have with the people. If I'm very good friends with some people, I'll probably tell them. I will say, I won't say who, but I had an actor that I worked with tell me, listen, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. And when I don't get enough sleep, sometimes I

I cry. Oh, wow. You might see me just start to cry. And it's just because I'm tired, but nothing's wrong. And I so appreciated the warning because what they were doing was taking care of themselves, A, and B, taking care of me by letting me know that it was there was nothing really wrong, but it just might happen because they were fatigued. Was it like in a comedy or was it in a show that I was doing? Yeah. And I really respect that. I also know Faith Prince is one of my dearest friends and we did Disaster together and I

Even if you don't tell anybody, I ascribe to what faith teaches, which is use on stage wherever you are that day. The more you try to stuff it or hide it, the more you're doing yourself a disservice. So I'm not saying do anything that the audience could see is different. Yeah. But you can just let it inform your character so that you're using your humanity. Yes. Which is different from day to day. Yep.

Because health is different. Emotional triggers are different. Yeah. So I'm always like, listen, if I can't be there for you, I'll let you know. But I'm like, please bring who you are. So now we're like, look, as much as I keep forgetting about the storyline, which I just did again, we are at the restaurant with Blanche and Dirk. And I... Oh. Oh.

It's so good. It's so good. It's so good. So not only are they, they're doing that. Because we've all done this too. Not only are they not sitting across from each other, they're like shoulder to shoulder at the table. This is the scene where I'm waiting for him to tell her that he's gay. Right. This is not what's happening. No. So Eddie Ruma-Clanahan playing herself, if ever there was a moment, orders. Do you want me to order it like her? Yes, please. Waiter comes over. She says, yes, I believe I will have the escargot and the duck

and a nice tossed salad with the blue cheese dressing. Now, I said kind of a heavy meal, Blanche, right? Like, Dirk orders the watercress salad with two lemon wedges like a son of a bitch. And Blanche says, Oh, that sounds great. I didn't even see that on my menu. I'll have the same thing. Oh! That is the... Oh! Because she might as well say, Oh, no! Yes!

That is the dickiest move ever I've seen. Like, to order the watercress salad with two slices of lemon. Like, I love this scene because, like, this guy's such a dick. And it didn't go where I was thinking it was going, that he was going to confess his love for the other guy in the jazzercise class or whatever. But I also...

I also love this scene because of how Blanche rebounds at the end. We'll get there. We'll get there. Why don't we just say what happens here? So Blanche is looking around the atmosphere and says, isn't this a lovely place? And Dirk agrees. And she's like, it's one of my favorite restaurants. Yes. Dirk says to the contrary, he's into macrobiotics himself. And of course, she's like, I don't know what that is. Of course, I am too. I am too. She's like, I just like this atmosphere. Yes. I said, Dirk, throw her away.

fucking bone girl right and so she she's trying to keep the conversation moving so she says so what did you do before you got into teaching aerobics yeah and Dirk says I worked in a museum to which she's so thrilled because she works at a museum because when you do find that one moment of common ground on like a first date you're like okay we're off and running here we go and that

That's one thing I love from the get, how experienced she is and smooth she is at dating. She's very good at it. And honestly, when you're on a date like this, we've all been on it, where like the two people are not equally putting in the same amount of effort to make the conversation happen. It's also showing the age difference. It's like he's just a kid. He doesn't know how to behave. And she's the adult just being like, well, we're going to be here for 90 minutes. We may as well figure out something to talk about. So she says, you know, I love art. And he agrees. He says, me too. I love lifting it. Right.

At which point he bends over from his seated position and picks up the table. He picks it up, saying that he used to unload the trucks of art and that lifting those statues really helped develop his deltoids. See? And she's like, mm-hmm, fascinating. Yeah, put that down, honey. And then she says, okay, so have you read any good books lately? Yes. And he says he read Pumping Iron. That's the Arnold Schwarzenegger book, which they turned into a movie? Uh-huh. And he didn't think the movie did the book justice. And Blanche goes, right. How could it? Right. Right.

And then he compliments her. He says, you know, I really like being with you. And she's like, well, thank you, Dirk. I like the way you sound and the way you look. Why, thank you, Dirk. This is why she's here. This is what she's here for. That's right. And then he lays it on her. You remind me of my mother. She lives in Seattle and I haven't seen her for about three years. But when I'm with you, I kind of feel like I'm home with mom. This takes the wind out of the audience's sails. You hear the audible...

And let me pause before we continue. Yeah. The reason why I have after he says, she says, you're kidding me. I work in a museum. I love art. He says, me too. I love lifting it. Yeah. I proceeds to lift it up. So at this point, she's humiliated and she says. 86, the water crest. I'll have the orange duck and a double Jack Daniels on the rocks.

My kind of girl blanch. Absolutely. My kind of recovery. You eat that escargot. You have that double bourbon while he's eating his watercress and lemon. And you and I both looked up like where 86 came from. Well, I didn't look it up. I've always been told because I worked in restaurants for so long. The term to 86, which means like we're out of something, came from the bar Chumleys, which was a speakeasy down on Bedford Street. And the address was 86.

Bedford Street. So during Prohibition, when the cops were raiding the place, they would yell 86, 86, 86, meaning dump your drinks and get out. Because the article I found, and I have to credit him, is a gentleman, George Mahay. He wrote this in stlouismag.com in August of 2019. And I'm just going to skip to the end. The first thing he says is, so if anyone asks you where the term 86 originated, tell them what I tell people. I don't really know, but there are about 86

Oh, interesting. So do you want to hear some of them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was told this, that the standard height of a door frame was 8 feet 6 inches, and when an obnoxious guest was shown the door at a bar, he was, quote, 86ed. Ah. So that pacified him until he later heard that it took 86 ladles to empty a pot of soup on an army mess line. Huh.

After that number of ladles, the soup was 86. Then he did some research and realized the genesis of the term wasn't clear. There was another soup pot reference that they say that the term originated in soup kitchens of the Great Depression, where the standard pot held 85 cups of soup. So the 86th person was out of luck. Many say the term has military roots. The term originated during the Korean War, a reference to the F-86 fighter jet. When an F-86 shot down an enemy plane, it was, quote, 86th.

And let's see, the United States also had a uniform code of military justice that has an Article 86 AWOL, absence without leave, aka AWOL. The term was derived from military shorthand. Rotary phones had T on the eight key and O on the six key. So to throw out someone was to 86 them or 86.

it goes on and on it could have been a bartender's term alcohol in the old west was 100 proof when a patron would get too drunk the barkeep would serve him a less potent 86 proof liquor oh my god i mean you could just go on and on oh and here you go perhaps this origin lies in new york many stories back this up there was a speakeasy bar at 86 bedford street in greenwich village called chumley's with no address on the door and several hidden exits when the heat showed up guests were known to 86 it or remove themselves from the premises immediately just go on go read it go read it but it's fascinating

So we're back in the kitchen. Rose and Dorothy are doing the dishes. Alma and Sophia are playing cards. Sophia keeps losing. Alma gets up to go to bed. But before she does, she wants to cash out. She's like, I've got 30 pretzels. They're each worth a dollar. Sophia takes both fists and pounds the table and says, now you have pretzel dust. And Dorothy says, Ma, don't be a sore loser. You owe her $30. I love this. Sophia goes, you're absolutely right, Dorothy. I stand corrected. Pay her. Thank you. Thank you for the new car. Pay her.

It should be noted, too, because we've talked fashion so much, that Alma is wearing a shawl. Uh-huh. In this scene, another trope. Another old lady trope. It's Miami. I looked it up and they said...

at the beginning of the century, shawls were a necessity in a fashionable woman's wardrobe because dresses were thin and it was a sign of gentility. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. So yeah. Please. Anyway, so, you know, they're wondering where Blanche is, how her date's going. They're getting a little worried and Rose starts to say how she's not really comfortable with her dating a younger man. And we find out that Dorothy is not terribly concerned because, you know, she dated a younger man. I don't

Alma then goes on to tell us about her three years with a younger man. And I wrote here, get in me, Ben. Right.

Because I think that this is news to Rose. Oh, it is. So what we learn, like Alma says, her three years with a younger man were some of the happiest of her life. Rose screams, mother. And Alma tells this story that after Rose's father died and the kids moved out, there was just no way she could handle the house on her own. So she hired a young farmhand. And I wrote, is it just me or is it getting hot in here, Alma? Oh, yeah. So Alma's saying, he was such a nice young man.

He raved about my cooking. I guess they didn't feed him very well in prison.

And the timing of that joke is just perfectly done. The look on Rose's face. Like, Alma's got a life. She's got a story. She's been around. She's going to be fine if she goes to the highlight by herself. That's true. Not just because Sophia's got a wrench in her purse. Yeah, right. Exactly. But, you know, Alma says that we just love being with each other. She said it was a particularly lonely time for me and it was just nice to have someone to talk to. And after a while, he moved in and I don't think I could have gotten through that time without Ben, which is just like, Alma.

It was like, you know, when it was over, it was over. But it was three years and we were better off for having known each other. And like, this is where Rose has learned her lesson because she wants to jump in and be like, mother, he was an ex-con and a drifter. And like the mom looks at her and she's like, but I bet he was a really nice ex-con and drifter. Yeah.

I love that she calls her Rosie, too. She says, thank you, Rosie. I think I will go to bed now. Good night. But we learn before she takes off that this is how she learned to gamble. Because Sophia's like, ah, was it this Ben that taught you how to gamble? And she said, yes, he taught me how to play cards. And he taught me how to carve a pistol out of soap. So Blanche enters the kitchen and...

And she immediately says, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah. Which, of course, is code for I want to talk about it. Of course. She says that her date with Dirk was a disaster. He was looking for a mother, not a lover. It was humiliating. But like Rose is like, I think it's sweet. And she goes, you would, Betty Crocker. And this is my favorite joke of the show. Oh, I'm sorry, Rose. I'm just a little depressed.

For the first time in my life, I feel over 40. You know why that is, honey? Why? Because you're over 50.

It's perfectly written and it's perfectly delivered by Queen B. It's also perfectly received. Like, I feel like Blanche, it takes her a minute to be like, oh my God. You know what I mean? Yeah. Don't I know it. Over 50 and over the hill. Dorothy's about to read her, right? She's like, come on, Blanche. Age is just a state of mind and Blanche is protesting and I can't stand it. And Dorothy says, well, I can't either. Listen, you have your looks, your health, you have a couple

a couple bucks in the bank and friends who love you. That's a hell of a lot more than most people have. I won't sit here and listen to you feeling sorry for yourself and neither is Rose. And Rose, yeah. And then, pause, pause, pause. She's right. Yeah.

all right cheesecakes don't go anywhere as soon as we come back from the break we are doing our deep dive and this week our deep dive is with the great stan zimmerman who wrote this very episode along with his writing partner james berg as well as several other episodes in season one of the golden girls as a staff writer not only was he a staff writer on the golden girls he did so much other stuff he wrote the lesbian kiss episode of rosanne he wrote a

pilot of a version of the golden girls about gay men called silver foxes which has been turned into a play he's got a new book out called the girls from golden to gilmore stories all about the wonderful women i worked with dot dot dot and rosanna could that possibly mean what anyway did that mean we'll have to ask him yeah we loved him you're gonna love him and we'll be right back

This podcast is supported by FX's English Teacher, a new comedy from executive producers of What We Do in the Shadows and Baskets. English Teacher follows Evan, a teacher in Austin, Texas, who learns if it's really possible to be your full self at your job, while often finding himself at the intersection of the personal, professional, and political aspects of working at a high school. FX's English Teacher premieres September 2nd on FX. Stream on Hulu.

Hi, Stan Zimmerman. Hi. It is so funny having a Stan in the booth connected to the Golden Girls because I have to remind myself that we're not talking to Stan Zbornak. Zbornak. And I have hair on my head. Firstly, I want to say congratulations on your book. Thank you. The book is called The Girls from Golden to Gilmore. It just came out. And the subtitle? Stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with. And Roseanne.

Was she wonderful at the time? Well, back then, you know, she fought for the working people. And that's what I love about her and the show. And we really hadn't had the voice on television since Norman Lear. And Norman Lear just changed my life as a young kid to see that. That you could marry art and advocacy, which I'm kind of doing now with all my theater work. Yeah. And still be popular.

Yes. So I love that about her. So we came up with this idea to write this show. And actually, we learned this from Rue McClanahan. You see the way I transitioned to Golden Girls? I did. So first in the set of Golden Girls, Rue McClanahan comes towards us and like, I'm freaking out. It's like,

saw her in Maud and the pilot of Golden Girls. And she said, really challenge my character. You know, I'm an actor's actor. She was. I mean, she did lots of theater and she did it up until, you know, the very end. Really challenge the character. And that's when we went back to the room, my writing partner, Jim Bergen, and I, and we thought, you know, Blanche's character is always about sex. What storyline could we give her that the answer to the

problem would be to have sex, but she didn't want to, which led to adult education. Yes, the sexual harassment episode. And it's obviously still an issue. So we really took that to every job that we had. And we took it to Roseanne. We thought, you know, at that point, she was a liberal person and really cared about the working people. That's how we came up with what would happen if she kissed a woman in a lesbian bar and then she thought she was really cool. And then is she not cool with it and how the people react? And that's how that happened.

episode came about. ABC said, you cannot write it. We wrote it. She said, just write it. And then they say, we wouldn't like to film it. She said, we're filming it. And they said, we wouldn't air it. And to the credit of her and Tom Arnold, they were married at the time. They said, we will buy back the show, buy time on HBO and air it if you don't. Wow. And ABC did air it. And the next morning, you know what? The world continued. Go figure. Tell us how you came to be a writer in The Golden Girls.

We had already been on one staff job, and then that show got quickly canceled after 13 episodes. I'm not even sure they aired all the episodes, but we had really cool guests like Don Cornelius from Soul Train and Roy Orbison. Oh, wow. It was a horrible show. But anyway...

Then we did a few freelance episodes of different shows. We did one, a show called Fame, you might have. Oh, my goodness. And it starred this person you've probably never heard of since, someone named Janet Jackson. Oh, my goodness. Was in the episode, and Debbie Allen directed it. It was Janet Jackson's actual first real music video. And then we got an episode of Valerie. Remember? I do remember that. The Hogan family. It turned into the Hogan family. Right? I mean, I remember that transition. I loved Valerie in the Hogan family. As we're turning the script in, they're going, I don't think Valerie's in this episode.

episode. Actually, we didn't get to write it. We were just doing the story. At the same time, we were asked to pitch on a new show at NBC that just got picked up from Pilot. At that point, you had to go in and watch the pilot. And then you'd go home and you'd come up with a bunch of ideas and then come back in and pitch them, hoping to get... They were going to give out two freelance episodes in the first 13 episodes. So we went home and Pitcher Little Hearts Out came in and we're pitching, pitching, pitching. And they're going, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So we're like,

Okay, that's all we got. And we're dejectedly walking to the door and something just came over me. I was not going to let this opportunity go by. And I flipped around in the doorframe and I just like, I think I spurted out something like, what if Rose's mother came to visit?

And there was a pause. To me, it seemed like about two minutes, but it probably was like two seconds. And they said, come back in and sit down. And I was like, are we going to get yelled at? And then they just started all like riffing on it. And I'm like, I think we got this episode. Yeah. And so we started coming up with a storyline and not treating her like a little girl and not like a woman. Mm-hmm.

And then I don't think Jim and I spoke the whole time walking back to our cars in the garage. And then we looked at each other and just like let out a scream, oh my God, we got an episode. But still, it was not a hit. Did they tell you in the room that you go home and write this? Oh yeah, yeah, we're going to go home and do an outline. Do you think they just loved seeing you on the fly? Like what you could do in improv? Yeah, because to see, yeah, I mean to see like,

Are they good writers? Yeah, that's a specific skill. They were not thinking staff at all. They just wanted like a good first draft. Yeah. So we went and did an outline and then they approved us to go to script. And then we went to script. This is all in our homes. Yeah. And then because...

we went to a lot of tapings of the first couple shows because we wanted to see where they were going with character and because we were taught that way. Of course. I think it's like my theater acting background. I went to NYU to be an actor. It was like studying a character and studying all of them. I came in from acting and Jim was a journalism major at NYU. So I came in from that way. So I would always act out the different parts. Like, you know, I can do Blanche, which I won't do now. I wish I had a little vodka here. Oh, please.

Anyway, so then we handed in the first draft and they flipped out over it. And that's when they knew, because it's really hard to get outside writers, especially baby writers, to be able to write existing characters. That's a whole different art, right? Not just like writing a pilot, but...

to be able to mimic the sounds of those people. Did you say there weren't a lot of rewrites for this? Not on our script. Which is unusual. Very unusual. And what is that like, the rewrite process in general? Well, if you're in the room, it can be terrifying because you have people ripping things that you put your heart and soul into right in front of you. And so I really had to learn. It was writing 101 classes, and you have to learn to take your ego out of everything, which is just in life, I find, in general, just take your ego out.

Yeah.

in the rewriting, do you ever play this game? Have you ever done this where the idea that you really want you save because you know they're going to give you a writing note so you don't even put it first? No. Because what if they don't? I know. I think I just pitch everything that comes to your mind. It's very different when you're in a room, a writer's room. It can be terrifying. It was

terrifying on Golden Girls because they were experienced writers and we were like young kids and they're people that had done Benson and Soap and like, how did we get here? And they were so smart. And then Whit Thomas, the non-writing producers, sat in the room and that's very unusual. Yeah. I think, but when we got there, they knew it was a hit. So the conventional wisdom was no one's going to watch a show about four old ladies in Miami. It was just like, hey, I'll put it on Saturday nights and like, no big deal. And then we were there watching it and every...

You know, now you can read ratings like on your computers, but then they didn't even print them in the newspaper back then. So at each table read on Monday, the producers say, oh, we're number 15. And everyone's going like, yay. And we thought, that's a lot. And then it'd be like, we're eight and we're five and we're four and then one. And then like everyone's like, oh, my God. And so to be there is to see it. And then to see going to the tapings of the shows at the beginning, people didn't know the characters. So there would be laughing there.

And I don't know if you know what's called the laugh spread. Well, what is it? The laugh spread is the length of the laughs from the audience. And people always think that, oh, it's all canned. No, there's real people up there. It's like a play. That's why a lot of people, a lot of theater actors love doing that because the format's very similar. And if the audience doesn't laugh, the writer's like...

run on the floor and we pitch other jokes and that part I don't love to be quite honest because you have to really be able to be very fast with your mind. So the idea for the episode was it started with Rose's mom comes to visit and then you write it but then the episode becomes Blanche and the Younger Man. So that was our B story. Yeah. Is it the B story in the episode or did it switch to becoming the A story? It was kind of a

co I think yeah and I think they like the idea of calling it that because it was a sexier title yeah and come on I mean right with those arms you're watching that Rose's mother going I don't know isn't that that woman from Gunsmoke or something Dirty Sally she was hot well there were some issues oh no what were the issues

Tell us the issues. I know you two don't like to gossip about things. No, we don't. We hate to gossip. Don't give us the tea. Don't give us the tea. Can't go right to that part. Tell us the issues. Well, she had a problem with memorization. I mean, a little worse than Estelle. So that last scene, you know, before the pretzels and all that. Yeah. You know, every minutia of...

I was watching you guys. They took everything out of the refrigerator and moved it around the table. All the food. They did? I don't even watch that. And then nobody ever eats anything. It happens in every episode. I said to Patrick, that's because continuity is too hard. He's like, why isn't Stan eating the sandwich? I said, just to keep remaking that sandwich for every take. So that costs money. But wait, so that was the big issue, was that she was having a hard time memorizing the lines. Yeah, and everyone knows the story that Estelle started forgetting her lines a lot.

Yeah. But we didn't know it was dementia then, especially in the first season. So we would just hear in the writer's room, oh, she's going out to parties every night. A still getty. She did. She was, well, she was going to AIDS benefits. Yes. And she was being invited to Hollywood parties. Uh-huh. She was like this working actress out, you know, in Brooklyn or Queens or something with her family. She'd make dinner. Yeah. And then she'd run downtown and do shows like in her bra. We were just like La Mama for

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've talked to her sons because I would like to do a one-woman show about Estelle. Oh, that would be fascinating. I'm available. Are you like to do it? I'm available. Are you too tall? I look nothing like I'm just a tall drink. I'm Dorothy Spornak. Yes, yes, yes.

What was the inspiration for then for the Blanche storyline in that episode? I just want to see a hot guy on stage. We were looking for something for Blanche and the stories, it's really great when you have an A story and a B story kind of dovetail. Yeah. And treating like a girl, like a mother, and then Blanche was treated like his mom. So that's the best. They don't always get to collide like that. So they wanted to call it that again because in the TV Guide, remember TV Guide? Yeah.

I still have all the fall pre-b ones. And every frigging playbill I've ever seen. Like, what is wrong with me? I know. We're from a different time. I guess so. Can I ask you something? Just because we're on Blanche, your discovery about...

end of a word. Oh. Yes, but you know what I'm going to ask you. You're the first person that's asked me that. I've done a lot of interviews with this book. About the E-R's that you discovered that that was a really funny sound for Rue McClanahan. I'm a Southern person. I'm a Southern person. So it was like dick and, you know, just words like... Or any R. Okay, the I-R, E-R. All of those words.

It's again, when you're, as opposed to just writing like movie scripts, when you write TV, to really be able to listen to the sounds that people make and what, to me, what would be funny. And also the cadence. Are they long sentences? Are they short sentences? Yeah.

So that was just something we discovered in the room. And so we were so desperate to be funny and we didn't think we were funny writers. Well, we still sound funny out of her voice. So that's how we started coming up with this. But what a collaboration. Isn't that interesting? Yes. But now you go back and you see my episodes with a lot of ER stuff. Listen.

I'm cheap that way. Good. That's great. Well, not that way, but that way too a little bit. That's my job. Now I just use alliterations because I think they're funny. Hence the book. The girls, all the Gs. That's consonants. Assonance is vowels.

What's a metaphor? Well, what do you find when you read scripts? Well, I'm going to say this to the writer since he's asking me, but we talk about comedy being in threes and fives and how many times that's used in these scripts to great effect and how great the actors deliver it. But I'd also like to say, not only do I love the words that writers such as yourself write, I love the negative space.

I love what's happening in and out of the scene, who they are as characters and the pauses and those things and painting in between the lines, you know, so never taking away from the words, letting them say them as written, but coloring in between and shading. So that's something I look for in a script. And that's why you're so brilliant. Oh, thank you. Because you can do that. And I love when actors can take our words, but they envelop, like Nicole Sullivan, who was in our Rita Rocks and

She's from Mad TV. She's wonderful. Mad TV. That's when I first saw her. She does that. I felt like she just puts like flowers on. She just covers it with the stuff that I didn't even see or feel. So when you can have a writer and actor connect, that's pure gold. You know, some people just don't know how to do that. The success of the episode led to you and Jim getting offered staff writer positions, right? Yes. So the first draft, they were like, get these guys on staff.

They had had another woman writing a freelance episode, and that was Whit Thomas's friend. Hers was a page one rewrite. And so the staff was like, we got these guys, let's bring them on. We were never really welcomed by Whit Thomas. And I think because, you know, I'm sure you've probably never experienced a straight white male's ego. Yeah.

Anyway, they like how they have the director's chairs with the names on it. Yeah. We got there and it was like duck, duck, goose. And we're like, where's our chairs? And they never even spent, you know, the $75. Like I would have just like drawn it on. Your chair said carpetbaggers. Exit that way. I was kind of obsessed with, you mentioned in the book, some of the story ideas that you pitched that season that didn't work.

Well, I heard that they did make. Rose joins an EST type group after meeting. Do you know what EST is? EST. You're so cute. Wait, what is EST? You're so young. Isn't it like one of those spiritual, motivational. Scientology kind of thing, but not as weird. But it was going to be the idea of like Rose joining a cult. Is that right? Yes, it was a cultish, but it was a spiritual cult. I mean, that is perfect.

She probably would have been. Because she's so naive. I know. So she would have followed them anywhere. Yeah. So that was a big thing back in those days that you would do that and you weren't allowed to go to the bathroom or something. I mean, those quotes are almost crazy. I went to a summer theater camp. They were all S people. Oh, wow. I was like 13 years old and I was like, I get you. I get you.

you. I get what you're saying. So when we're in a writer's room, the great thing about having a writing partner is I don't love sitting in the writer's room. So I let my writing partner do the day to day with the other writers and I'll take two or three people out and I'll be the one to like break stories, which means I come up with new stories and structure it or go to casting or editing. So I'm always jumping up and down in the chair. So I'm a big multitasker. Someone said to me the other day that they said it's a gay person's brain.

Have you heard of this? No. What is? We've got to Google it. That our brains are somehow good for multitasking. And I'm like, okay.

Then my brain is broken. I can do one thing at a time. Maybe you're not really gay. It could be that. I just had this conversation today, too, that women are usually very good at multitasking. Yes, women and gay men. Speaking of things women are good at, I'm guessing it was her facial expressions, but you said in the book that Bea Arthur didn't necessarily need a joke to get a laugh. But nobody knew that. So we invented that. You did. Yeah, so we invented what we call shooting a look. Mm-hmm.

So they sent Jim and I off to our little rooms. And Chris Lloyd, who was not even on staff, you know, from Modern Family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like one of the creators. His father is a famous comedy writer. So he, I guess, was the first Nepo baby ever. So they just had him sitting around watching all of us. So they would throw him in our room. He would sit on the couch and watch us be neurotic. Like, oh, my God, are we going to keep our job and all that stuff?

And so they would send us off and say, come back with five jokes for Dorothy at the end of the scene, which is called The Blow. I don't know why. Back in those days. You know, Dorothy's rage in some of these episodes, the blow of the situation does make it make a little more sense. Is it too late to rename our podcast The Blow? Oh, yeah.

would that be all right give me your subtitle so we're coming up with you know word jokes and then i said but whatever the line was like like a rose thing it's so stupid why it's be arthur like can't she just like give a look shoot and so we wrote shoot a look i don't even know why shoot but it felt like her gaze was almost like shot at someone and you knew what that meant and we went in there and

I had to act it because I did have my NYU degree. Of course. So Jim was like, push me up and I'd have to act it. All the lines in front of a group of heavyweight writers. They all laughed. We tried it out. And of course, like everyone screamed. And it became a thing. All she had to do. That's how the laugh spread kept growing because the audience would come in now knowing the characters. Yeah. And then the minute Rose said something stupid, the cameras would go on a single of Bea Arthur. Yeah.

Laughter, laughter, laughter. It's iconic. Yeah. Iconic. It was just, the actress had to hold. A hold in a sitcom? Yeah. That's unheard of. It's interesting, like, in watching these episodes, we talk about it a lot. We're like, the laughter went on for 10 seconds. Yeah. And you feel it.

feel it. We covered something today where Bea Arthur gives no less than five takes. Just looks. You know, and it's like one, two, three. She turns, she looks back. She turns again, she looks back. I mean, it took time. But it was so funny. How many other actors that you know that can do that? I mean, you don't see it anywhere else. You know, it's why like TikTok and Instagram is full of Bea Arthur doing it because nobody else can do it. Yeah. But that's also, that's an example too of what I mean between the lines. But you also wrote that

Shoot the look. We created her and then let her do her thing with that. And so it did save us a lot of time. We wouldn't have to think of a word joke. And it just became a thing and running jokes. But we were in the room when we're flipping through a phone book looking for cities where roses. And it was like St. Olaf. Yeah. Like to have been there not knowing it would become a whole thing.

thing. Wow. You were there the moment they decided Rose was from St. Olaf. Yeah. Wow. I feel like God we were there when they turned the earth on. Well, I mean, to invent the Bea Arthur, like, sass look or whatever we're calling it, like, that's amazing. And what do I get for it? What do you get for it? You get us. And that's pretty darn good. And a pole in spring. There you go. I'll be holding this. One of the things that was shocking to read was

was that you and your writing partner, Jim, felt like you had to stay closeted on the set. Will you talk about that and what Estelle said to you on day one? Yeah. Most people are pretty shocked. It's shocking. It's such a progressive show. Like, why would you have to be in the closet? But you have to, you know, this is where you get dissolving. Go back in time. It was a different time.

And our representatives said, you know, don't come out of the closet on the show. And so we kept our mouth shut. We wanted to keep the job so badly. And we just got this vibe not to bring it up. So we would bring women to events. Right.

Really? Yeah, yeah. And then in the writer's room, you know, they would talk about, like, everyone would just say, like, what did you do this weekend? Everyone got to tell their stories. And I'd be like, I'm thinking, well, I went to Studio One and danced. It's a place in West Hollywood. I couldn't say that. And then I remember Jim and I, because we were so poor then, we were sharing a house, bottom of a house. I said, oh, we went to this garage sale in Silver Lake, and I bought all these really cool vintage sweaters.

And they went, the room, like, just, like, stopped talking. And they said, you know that was, because Silver Lake was an area where gay men lived, that you bought it because someone died of AIDS and they were selling his stuff. You can't wear that. You have to go home and burn it. Wow. Yeah. So I went home and I did put it in, like, two garbage bags and throw it away. I didn't burn it. Yeah.

So that was happening in the room. So you're not going to say, oh, you know, I went on a date with a guy if they, you know, we were being told that. I got to tell you, like, that's going to break some hearts. Like, that's going to, you know what I mean? Like, and we have to, like you're saying, remember the time because it's, I don't,

know the level of interaction you had with the four women or whatever, but you would think, and your Estelle story is so great because you would at least think that they would be championing you on that front. We weren't just hanging out with them. We were in the writer's room and then the first time we went down on the set, we were

Estelle came over, you know, she's like four foot, whatever. And she goes, psst, come here. And she goes, follow me. And I looked at Jim and I was like, I guess we got to follow her. She's the star of the show. So she's like around the back of the set. And we're back there and she goes, your secret's safe with me. You're one of us. Yeah. And so I assume Jewish. And I think I said that to her. And she goes, no, gay. And she wasn't gay, but she was an ally from Torstland. Yeah.

So I always wonder, like, did she tell Bea Arthur? Because she knew Bea Arthur, had a lot of gay friends and was so supportive of gay people. Yeah. She supports this house in New York for... Covenant House. Yes. Yes.

And she talks about, there's lots of videos online you can find where she talks about, you know, her support for the gay community. So yeah, and Estelle would go to, she was one of the first like Hollywood actors that would go to these benefits. And because back then, like there would be no male actors that would go because that would be a career death. And a lot of women didn't go. And-

Talking to her sons when I was trying to do this one-woman show about her, they would say that she would go to the hospitals here when cast members would get sick and have to leave the show. From Torch Song. From Torch Song Trilogy. And she'd bring them chicken soup. Yeah. And then some of the cast members had to tell her, like, Dal, that's not going to make them better. She just thought it was like a regular illness. And, I mean, she was so lovely and such a cool person. I feel so lucky that...

I just remember like sitting at my desk in my house and she'd call me and like give me, this was after I was off the show and just give me advice on career. Like, who are you dating? What are you doing? And, you know, I mean, she was just like a really sweet Jewish mother and I wish she had lived longer. And when you weren't on the show, you weren't back for season two. No, they did not ask us back.

Can you talk about that here? I can't talk about that. Are you okay? She needs some more Poland Springs. It's been 40 years, but you know what? We are not over it. Leave it to you to bring it up. It was very upsetting at the time. I'm sure. Because they kept giving us scripts to do. So we got nominated for a Writers Guild Award. So we were obviously doing something right. Correct. And it was working and people were laughing and responding and the writers all liked us.

And then Susan Harris at the wrap party for season one said, we'll see you in September. So that was as good as gold to me. Although she was never in the room because she had Epstein-Barr disease. But her husband and producing partner, Whit Thomas, did not want us back. And so they did not pick up our option. And that was devastating. I go, devastating, just devastating. Yeah.

Woe is me. It really hurt, you know, because everyone in town knew we were on the show and then, you know, they ask why and...

But, you know, as I've learned from a long career, you know, you lose jobs, shows get canceled. You got to like roll with it and reinvent yourself sometimes. And that's how I like, you know, I've seen the ups and downs, you know, sitcoms are dead, sitcoms are back. And in between, you know, we started writing movies. We did the Brady Bunch movies and then we started doing writing musicals. We got asked.

to rewrite the Annie movie for Neil and Craig's Aidan and Maren and that's with you know a few people like Kathy Bates and Christian Chenoweth and Victor Garber and Audra McDonald you're fine yeah we're fine but did you think there was homophobia involved in your not being asked of course we are breaking hearts on Golden Girls Deep Dive this week oh my god but it was we didn't learn any of this so then we were at Paramount writing the Brady Bunch movies and they locked us in a closet funny little Neela

in the old closet and just go fix these scenes. And we're in the closet and there were these windows and we're just looking out for air or just out at the studio and walked by where Nathan, Panera and Nathan, they were big writers on the Golden Girls. And we're like, oh my God, we haven't seen them since the Golden Girls. And like, we have an office here. And you know, when you take a break, come say hello. So we ran over there and we got to hear all these stories that we had never heard before.

They ended up producing our first pilot. And they said, yeah, we really fought for you guys to stay. And it was really ridiculous why you weren't back. But, you know, that's just...

the luck of the draw. But then when we would do work in pilots with them and there'd be like a beautiful woman walk by and they would go, nothing? You feel nothing? And then when like a hot guy would walk by, we'd say to them, really, nothing? So it's funny how that started to change. And then we, against the advice of our agents, we came out professionally in a newspaper in LA. In what year?

Oh, honey, I don't know years. No numbers. 80s or 90s? 80s. Okay. So not like... It was after Golden Girls, so it must have been late 80s. Or early 90s. Early 90s. Somewhere in there. I can find out for you. No, no, no. I just didn't know if you meant like 20 years later or soon thereafter. Soon thereafter. It was just hard to be in the closet. I mean, like everyone in town knew, but it was so freeing to just, you know, have our picture. Yeah. We could be ourselves. And then it flipped to...

You know, when we got on Roseanne, I think we got on because they wanted gay voices there. And then so Tom Arnold was running around the offices yelling, where are my gay guys? Which I think that would be a nice lawsuit. And I would have a beautiful penthouse in New York City. You mentioned Silver Lake. Sadly, that's a sad story. But in terms of silver, tell us.

Everything about silver foxes, please. Oh my God. I want the phone call from Susan Harris. Don't you? Of course. Patrick, I know this. Shockingly, no one has asked me about that either. Really? Yes. Logo called us in for a meeting. We didn't know why and we're like, okay. And they said, we're going to do our first scripted

for a scripted show. They only did reality shows like RuPaul, Drag Race. And they said, we've scoured the town and we picked our writers and it's you two. And we're thinking we're like being on Punk'd or something like that. Like we're looking for cameras. And they said, we want to do a Gay Men's Golden Girls. I'm like, oh, that's why you asked us. And we were just like, yes, we'll figure it out.

Then we were watching for research this documentary called Jen Silent. And it was about homophobia in assisted living places. Which I knew nothing about. Yeah. Imagine like you finally come out of the closet and then as you get older you have to go back in the closet. Yes. Because a lot of these places are run by... My mom's a lesbian. She's in a nursing home and she has 15 girlfriends. Like somehow my mom ended up in the world's most progressive... Yeah.

Who's the slut there? Seriously. She's the blanch of the nursing home. That is hot. She'd have to get to 56 to be the real slut like this. Good for her. I love that. So we wrote it. And then, you know, as we do in theater, we have stage readings, which you don't do in television. And I thought, I'm going to have a reading in my living room. And I cold called George Takei and God bless him, the late Leslie Jordan. Didn't know them at all. And I said, you know, I threw my credits out. Why not? Why not?

And I said, here's the show we want to do. Hadn't written the script yet even. They said, what day, what time? And they appeared in my living room with Melissa Peterman and Sherry O'Terry and

Bruce Valanche and a great group of people. And the network was like, how did you get these people here? You're like, I just know everybody. I'm Stan Zimmerman. I just called. And I've had Marla Gibbs in my living room and Barbara Bain. Wow. I mean, I've had insane people there. And I had my line producer from another show there to explain to the network, here's how you could do it.

Reading went great, and the network said we can't afford to make this show. I'm like, okay. Logo. So we said to our agents, get it out to any network or streaming or cable anywhere. Not one company would open the script to read it

because the demos were old people and it was an LGBTQ plus show. I kid you not. That's the reason. And sadly, it doesn't even surprise me. And they would give reasons like, well, it doesn't have broad appeal. I know what that means. Of course. You know. Yeah. So I was doing press for a web series recently

with Sandra Bernhardt and Mindy Sterling in it, and I started talking about it. And then the story blew up, and I posted the picture of the reading, people in the reading. And then my good friend Michael Urie, we were talking about it, and was like, why don't you write it as a play? And so we turned it into a play, and it's one of the four plays that I have produced and licensed and published by TRW Plays. Wow. And we just had the world premiere last spring in Dallas. Wow.

With Uptown Players. And Michael directed it. And Michael directed it. And we asked him to direct it. And we sold out before the show opened. And I'm going to the Midwest premiere in Columbus, Ohio, on September 6th. It opens. I will be there in person. And with Evolution Theater Company, which is an LGBTQ plus theater company. So, you know, I can see it being done in California.

P-Town and Lauderdale and Palm Springs. It has to be done. It's set in Palm Springs. Do you have like a single favorite memory from your time on the Golden Girls? I would just say a general thing would, I'm so glad and I was so super young, but that I took the time to really appreciate when I was there, standing there on the floor of the set and

and looking to my left and seeing those four amazing women. Yeah. And then looking to the right and seeing the studio audience laughing at lines I said and looking at those people saying those lines. Yeah.

And really taking the moment saying, I am so lucky and blessed to be here. I don't know how or why, but thank God. And I want to just use that for good. And you can so easily just like run through things in your life. Yeah. Really. You're present. Take the present moment. Yeah. That's really important. I'm so glad to hear you say that. Even in your telling it, I can see it from your eyes.

And like to have the presence of mind to really take in that moment and be able to visualize it like forever and ever. That's amazing. Yeah, because it's so easy. You can go, oh, all that fucked up stuff back there or like, what if the job ends? You know, so many people, they get a pilot deal and I call them,

to congratulate them. Oh, well, it's never going to go. I'm like, wait, you just sold it and you're already going to the negative. So I think that's in any business. Just really appreciate where you are. I feel so lucky that I'm sitting here with you two talented people. Oh my gosh. And it's so super cool and I love what you're doing and that you're keeping just the love of Golden Girls.

alive and I've been feel so lucky all the wonderful people I've met through it and people come up to me you know like if you get recognized as an actor no one knows writers who I am so people always say do you mind if I tell you a story about how my grandmother and I I'm like please like for a writer to hear that that your words and and still I mean

You're so lucky when you get one show that is popular, but I've been lucky enough to have three shows that still today are affecting people. I mean, that's kind of insane. Well, so Stan Zimmerman, your book is called The Girls from Golden to Gilmore, stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with

And Roseanne. Yes. So that'll be a whole other hour of Roseanne talk. And they can get it anywhere, right? Anywhere you want. Amazon. It's at the Drama Bookshop. Yes. I did a wonderful book signing thing. Marissa J. Bernoker was the moderator. And we just had a wonderful time this past April. And they have all my plays there as well. Wow.

You are magic. I love you. Thank you for the tea. Next time you're back, I'm going to ask even more specific questions and get even more tea. Can't wait. Thank you, Stance and Ruman. Do you have anything else, Jen? Just that I love you. Love you back. Thank you for being a friend.

Oh, I feel so honored. Wasn't that great? It was so great. It was really fun having somebody from the actual Golden Girls world in our studio with us. And just like from its birth. I know. From its inception. And I'm telling you, like the homophobia, that was shocking to me. Yeah, I know. The fact that you would have to keep it quiet. I love little Estelle Getty being like, your secret's safe with me, kid. You're one of us. I know. And I love that Estelle Getty considers herself one of the gays. You know what I mean? Speaking of gays, Cheesecakes, join our Facebook group.

It is full of all kinds. You can make a transition out of nothing. Thank you. Out of thin air. Thank you. It is my great gift. It's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast discussion group on the Facebook. And, you know, we're up to almost 2,000 members. People are just becoming friends. They're sharing their Golden Girls memes. They're literally tracking down the birthplace of Estelle getting the little inspector gadgets in there. We give an assignment and they are on it. Right.

Oh my gosh. I know. And you know, I'm going to jump in. Patrick usually says this. I just want you all to know how much I and we appreciate all of those iTunes reviews. Yes. Thank you so, so much. Keep them coming. It really helps us. It really helps people find us. Yeah. The review part is the most important part. So giving us the stars is really sweet. But if you could click on the thing that says write a review and then just write a few, it could be four words about like Jennifer is sexy. That's right.

That's all it has to be. It could be just that. In fact, if you would all write that, that would be... Write Jennifer is sexy and then we will know you heard this.

But it really means a lot. And I read them and it makes me happy. And it's just so sweet and kind. But it really does help other people find us. I might have to break my rule and go read them because you're selling me on them so much. They're really so nice. That's nice. Cheesies. And you know what? If you have a suggestion or something you want to share or something you want to tell us, write us. We have an email address. It's a brand new thing. I know. People have email addresses now. Anyway, ours is info at goldengirlsdeepdive.com. Well, that's a good place for you to send us what your suggestions are for the deep dives.

because we've got them coming out of our ears. We're not going to run out of them. But if you have ideas, we want to know what you want us to do. Yeah, Steve monitors everything. And so he definitely goes through and it will be read. We love you, Cheesies. I love you, Mother Cheesecake. I love you, Papa Cheesecake. Thank you so much for listening to our shenanigans. Thank you all. We love you. We love you. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.