A Happy Christmas for Liverpool; Bah Humbug for Spurs, United and City
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Despite a nine-goal thriller between Tottenham and Liverpool, a brilliant win for Bournemouth at Old Trafford, five goals for Arsenal and Aston Villa condemning Manchester City to another defeat, there will be no, and I mean no, mention of the game.

of Christmas crackers on today's show. Apart from that mention just then. That's the last one. That's the only one. I promise. We'll discuss all of those games as well as worrying signs for Southampton's new manager and a good start for Vitor Pereira at Wolves. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter and tactical analyst Hamza Khaliq Lunat and...

Back from a short stint changing nappies, the former footballer and now dad of two, Gregor Robertson is back with us. Welcome back, Gregor. A little round of a little clap. Although we should be clapping your partner, Susie, not you. You've done absolutely bugger all. Well, I've changed a lot of nappies. Ridiculous number of nappies. All well? Everyone well? Everyone's very well, yeah. Do you have another little baby girl? Another baby girl, yeah. Very lucky man. Even with the sleep deprivation. Two future Scottish Women's Internationals.

Possibly, yeah. I hope for another left footer as well. Yeah. Can you do that with kids after, what is it, two weeks? Do you work out how left footed or right footed? Does that happen? I'll be trying, yeah. I wrote a piece about that once, remember? I know, yeah. My dad rolled a ball to me in the cot, he says, I think he's made this up. It was a happy apple.

so it wasn't actually a ball but he rolled it to me and I kicked him on the foot and he said ah you'll never starve yeah well there you go it's kind of true at least we know what will be happening in the Robertson household this Christmas just Gregor on the floor going go on kick it kick it you can do it I should say to team by the way

my no mention of Christmas crackers is not because I'm being a Scrooge or bar humbug it's just I don't I really hate the pun you know yesterday I was on the Times editing floor and as the goals were flying in at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium I was like no one say it no one say it we can't do it no one do it no one do the headline we're not allowed to do it can't do it

Go on, Hampton. It's about a slot like Christmas, right? Oh, yeah, it's beginning to look a slot like Christmas, yeah. But that's better, that's more specific. It doesn't work though, right? It's a bit lazy, isn't it? No, it literally doesn't work. The idea of the pun is that the sentence works on its own. Listen, when it comes to puns, we're all over the place. Anyway, let's talk about the game, shall we? And thank God we have the senior sports writer, Alison Rudd, who was there, in the ground, watching this amazing, amazing match unfold.

Would we, did we see this coming, Alison? I would say yes, we did. I think so. Yes. I was cheered out of the house by my children going, you're going to have a lovely time today, mum, aren't you? So I don't think it came as a surprise to anybody at all. Singers were on the theme of Christmas. If... Remember the rule, no crackers. Absolutely. But if, if you're the sort of person, and they exist, right, who say things like,

oh, I only give homemade Christmas presents. I don't buy into the commercialisation of Christmas. I make my own presents. But for some reason... I like how that person is just like a slightly posher version of your own voice. But for on Christmas, you've broken both your arms or you've run out of felt and wood. Do you not give any Christmas presents or do you go to the local shop...

and buy some pretty presents for the people you love. You've been thinking about this one on the chain. The latter, the latter. As I was sat there listening to Andrew Postacoglu, I thought this is, he is the Grinch now, isn't he? Because it's one thing to have a set of philosophies, a principle,

He now says he's fed up of talking about it and being asked about it. But that's because we're getting to peak ridiculousness. If circumstances dictate that you have to change what you prefer to do and you're in a paid job, that's what you should do. And I lost my tether with him, really. I really have lost my tether with him because in him saying he's had enough of it and people don't understand or they do understand that,

how often does he have to say it for people to understand where he's coming from? He's missing the point completely. What we want to understand is why, why when you've got 10 stroke 11 players out, a really naive young defence, a goalkeeper who cannot play it from the back, why do you not think, okay, I'm going to have to just temporarily while I'm in this fix,

I'm going to have to change things a bit. And if anything, this game proved that even with a long injury list, they've got enough attacking talent who are fit to score goals against Liverpool. If they'd played it better, if they'd been clever about it, if they'd tried to frustrate Liverpool for long periods and then caught them on the break, they could have nicked a win or a draw. But instead, it was just this huge...

Oh, ridiculously pleasant invitation, Kamatis, Kamatis. The opening goal, I don't, I mean, I challenge anyone in this room to say they've seen a player with so much time to pick his cross as Trent had to cross into the box. It was just, it was just, there was no one near him. It was...

And everyone knows what a good crosser of the ball he is. It was so relaxed and they were at home and, oh my word, it was disgraceful. On that goal, I thought the very special thing that, well, the smart thing that Liverpool did was they sort of clustered their play to one side. So Gravenberg moved over to the left and they moved themselves all over to the left side. So Trent was in space. So I thought that was a credit to how Liverpool manipulated space to create space for Trent Alexander-Arnold. But to your general point...

I really do sympathise with Postacoglu because asking this team, this defence, this inexperienced defence to defend, I don't think necessarily leads to better outcomes than the one that they had by playing in this attacking way. They scored three goals and you can get into the sort of

how much Liverpool were paying attention later on or whatever. But as in, to ask Jed Spence, Archie Gray, Dragosheen, Pedro Porro and Forster to defend, I mean, if they did that... But is it not about defending as a team? They're defenders. Yeah, they're not very good defenders. And if you ask them to defend... Just because you sit in doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to defend better. I remember when Leeds... So Leeds, when they...

came up with Marcelo Bielsa. They had a team that was quite uniquely attuned to playing attacking football. They played man-to-man and it was a sort of surprise for everyone. They did well in the first season, didn't quite work in the second season. Jesse March came in and they avoided relegation. But where things really came off

for them was when players that were developed and played with an attacking sense were asked to do something different. When Javi Gracia came in, you had this quite consistent level of performances and he appeared and the performance level dropped off a cliff. Likewise, when Sam Allardyce came in, the same thing happened. And that's because those players were

Couldn't do sit back low block defending because what they were good at was attacking these guys They I don't think they have the capacity to just sit back and defend I think if they did I honestly I reckon it could have been worse But I imagine many people disagree, but yeah, I'm very conflicted about this now because First of all because I really like Ange. I'm a Celtic fan. What he did there was great and

And you did say this when he came to Tottenham. There will be no changing. And also, I actually loathe a lot of the analysis around Spurs at the moment. I think it's so many people make themselves sound quite outdated when they're talking about ignore what the manager's asking them to do. Just sit in for five, ten minutes, lads. Let's get in until half-time. That sounds like...

you can't do that now you can't ignore what a really heavily systems focused manager which is what most managers are nowadays would you ever have done that as a player though? yeah but I never played for Ange no no I'm just asking generally like that idea of a player on the pitch taking a call that contradicts their manager's directions

Yeah, you would for the sake of the context of the game look at it and go I'm not going to do what he thinks he wants me to do because it feels wrong. Yeah, but it would only be brief. It wouldn't be like we're going to go against the entire philosophy of the football team which is what they're really asking. A lot of pundits and people are asking to happen. So there's that as well. I just fundamentally, I'm kind of with Hamza, I see what he's saying about the outcome might not necessarily be better but

I also just don't think Ange has ever come up against teams who will press and will be as good as this, at opposition like this before, and I don't think it's going to work. So you don't think it ends up working? Because the whole point of what Ange was saying, and a lot of Tottenham fans, a lot of Tottenham fans on the Times desk, including Glenn, one of our senior production people who I often refer to, the Glenn-ometer, we know where Tottenham fans are, he was in the office yesterday and watching the game with us unfold yesterday,

happy to stick with Ange his view is stick with him for the season but you don't see that actually they're going to this is not going to be a triumphant come through this sticky patch and all of a sudden it'll all click you think it ends in it ends badly that's my instinct more and more I take the fact that they're playing without you know Hamza's right point that defence Archie Gray he's been brilliant in fact Jed Spence in isolation played pretty well there was moments where he didn't quite get the offside line right yeah

they're playing with a heavily depleted team and when they have all their players back but the thing is when they have all their players back I still come back to it it's a high wire act even when you've got Romero you've got Van Veen you've got rapid defenders you've got players of like getting close to an elite level if they drop off at just like 3% or whatever

It's calamitous. And then you come back to the whole vision of it all and that he's asking these players... Asking Fraser Foster to play like this is stupid. It's absolutely nonsensical. Like, Hamza and I were talking about this before. What people ask goalkeepers to do nowadays when they're completely incapable of doing it is madness. But Foster is like, probably, it's wilder than anyone. Look at David Rye, who's like, the way he collects the ball.

He's like an outfield player. A pass comes and he opens up in one movement. He's on his toes. He's on the half turn almost.

Foster stops the ball then shuffles round it and then has to take another touch and then has to move his massive tree trunk legs to be able to kick it in time it's madness but is that not then to Alison's point about Ange yes that's what I'm talking about the conflict is real it's like I can understand why you've got to stick to this vision but I don't think I think there has to be there has to be within that and we're not talking about

asking your defence to sit in a low block and getting two midfielders in front of you. I'm not asking that. Just don't make a fundamental part of your build-up phase, giving it back to Fraser Foster. That's stupid. But also, just as quickly coming on this, because I was at the Tottenham Manchester United game in the week and obviously completely different oppositions, but in terms of, and I always talk about this narrative, right? So yesterday when I'm speaking to Pete Rutzler from the game and he's telling me what Andrews said,

I'm able to say to him or they've conceded what is it 13 goals in three home games or whatever that wouldn't have been the case if they'd just dispatched Man United 3-0 which is looked how it was going in that game and that those two goals were precisely because of what Greg has said it's not it wouldn't have been a philosophy change you just needed Fraser Forster to boot it twice and they wouldn't have conceded two goals but

Or Archie Green not to give him it on the goal line from six yards. Just launch it. That's not a sit-in. We don't need to change absolutely everything about what we're doing, but that's just a slight logical call. And then they win that game 3-0 rather than 4-3. And also the other thing that that did, sorry, just being in the stadium, which I'd never been to before...

how quick it turned was incredible. Bedford being 3-0 up, playing quite well, lots of people talking about, oh, Archie Gray looks quite bright in defence, Jed Spence, it's brilliant that he's getting a chance to the kind of vitriol that was heading towards the players was incredible at 3-2 down. And so that's another thing that I don't understand about it.

of where it's almost like a PR exercise. You could stop that from happening and then this whole week wouldn't be... Yes, you might have still lost 6-3 to Liverpool, but you would have won 3-0 against Manchester United and into the Carabao Cup semi-finals. But there's still that element of calamity in that game, in a win. I'm not sure it's that simple because what you have fundamentally here is... When you look at the XI, not a very good defence and very good attack.

In this situation, when you were presented with this, what do you do? Do you go, do I maximize the best qualities I have? Do I attack more? Or do I try and cover them? Do I limit my attacking, the good thing that I have? Do I say, we're not going to use them as much because we're worried about how we defend? I would always lean towards attacking because those are good qualities you have. Play to your strengths. And...

when we think about launching it the reason Spurs were able to score as many goals that they did against Tottenham and then three against Liverpool and generally they score so many goals is because they do build up

Now, Fraser Forster may not be very, very good. He may not be good at playing out from the back. However, it's an important part of dragging opponents forward. And when they drag opponents forward, what happens? That means they're spacing behind for Son, for Kulosevski, for Maddison, for Zolanki. If you play long, Son's not going to win. No, but we're not saying play long. I think we live in this world. No, just get rid of it in that moment. In that moment when you've literally got Amad Diallo. I was at the game. I was watching him go in and I'm going, surely kick it. Just kick it. Just kick it. In this instance, kick it.

Forster tried to launch it. That's the one that got caught up. Because he waited too long. I'm not saying we have to live in a world of two extremes where Ange has to sacrifice all his principles. We live in this world of such extreme opposites and you're like, just launch it. And listen, I'm the same as you, Hamza. I go to games, even at League One, and you listen to it. Just get rid! And you're like, no, no, there's a point to what they're trying to do. And I absolutely agree with you. But what I'm saying is that

the knock-on effect is that it allows that vitriol to build up it allows that narrative to build up that you don't know what you're doing that you won't make any sacrifices I want Ange Postacoglu to stay at Tottenham for as long as possible I love watching Tottenham I'm completely neutral I love watching every Tottenham game Gregor you said it when the match list goes out if you get sent to a Tottenham game Alison you've just said it your kids said you're off to Tottenham this is going to be great fun

Stat, Tottenham have conceded 31 goals in Premier League home games in 2024, their most in a single calendar year since 2007. Tottenham's Premier League matches under Ange Postacoglu have seen an average of 3.6 goals scored per game, both teams combined. Among those to take charge of 50 plus games in the competition, this is the highest goals per game rate for any manager. He's a neutrals legend. I want him to stay for as long as possible. But what I'm slightly bothered by is that he's allowing this narrative to build up. Yeah.

That then will mean he might get sacked. That's an important point. He would look cleverer. He wouldn't look like he diluted his principles. I think he'd look really astute if he said, OK, Liverpool, top of the table. Well, they're going to go, you know, top of Christmas. They're the best team in the country at the moment by quite some distance. They're really impressive. I'm missing 10 players.

I am going to adapt to that particular situation. He'd still have been able to play some nice football. It's just the minor adaptations. You don't have to ditch everything in one go. It's as though he feels like he would be really embarrassed...

If at any point someone said to him, you took account of what Liverpool are at at the moment. You thought, you know, with my defence, their attack, I'm going to have to be... Also in the Carabao Cup midweek, Southampton, they got rid of Russell Martin and the interim manager decided, well, you know, he's not going to be there for long. What he can do, he's got Liverpool coming...

He can just try and frustrate them, stay in the game for as long as possible. And it didn't work, but it nearly worked. And they weren't embarrassed. It was a CT. It was 2-1. No, but they were still brilliant Liverpool players. And Southampton are rubbish players. You've written today, Southampton are rubbish players. And I don't think Spurs defence is worse than Southampton's defence in terms of age and probably in terms of what they're going to cost in the future. Spurs defence is better.

He's got three goals. That's three more than Man City got. I asked you this question earlier. You can't ask them to do anything at all. Of course you can. You can ask them to frustrate and be organised. I asked Gregor a question earlier, before the podcast. I said, seriously, would you rather be Manchester City that have their problems or have Spurs' problems where neither team can defend but at least one can score? Which would you prefer?

I'd never want to be Man City. I agree, Hamza. I would rather be Tottenham. And if I was choosing the fans. But I think the point I'm trying to bring in is the wider context and things. So as a Manchester City fan, you won the treble a couple of years ago. You've known unprecedented success. If you have to go through a period of

great change Pep Guardiola's just signed a new contract the problem with Tottenham and with Ange is that it then becomes a stick to beat him with over and over again that's what I'm getting at I'm like do yourself a favour Ange that's what I'm like help yourself I want him to help himself we love him I love him he's great in press conferences every time any of you ring in from a press conference I'm always like I bet he said something either funny light hearted or something quite good analytically

I love watching his teams play from a neutral point of view if you're editing on a Sunday and Tottenham are in a big game you're like this is great we'll have a story I want him to stay for as long help yourself out Ange help yourself please mate please this is English media narrative honestly you're in it mate you're in it if I think there's one failing of Postacoglu it's that his pressing system is man to man it's actually quite easy to manipulate yes this is

Okay, if someone's going to make that argument on TV as a pundit... You make it now, because you were telling me about this before. You thought that watching this game, that the pressing is a little scattergun. So over the past five years, well, over the past ten years, pressing has come on quite a bit. In the past five years or so, we've seen man-to-man pressing, mostly the last three, really develop and become more complex.

The problem with man-to-man pressing is that when you lock on man-to-man, ideally, if you're technically superior to your opponents or you're physically superior to your opponents, you'll win in a man-to-man system. So that's why, and it's easy to manipulate. If you lock on man-to-man and the opponents pull you out wide, then you leave space in the middle. You don't want to do that because the middle of the goal, you just rip the goal, all that sort of stuff.

so what smart managers like Andoni Uriola Mikel Arteta have sort of done they've combined the principles of zonal pressing with man marking to get a bit better both make sure that when you do lock on man to man you still protect the middle Postacoglu

hasn't quite worked out that tweak because pressing has moved on quite a bit in the past three or four years so they are still quite easy Tottenham this is and his Celtic team to a degree they were quite easy in the Champions League less so in the Scottish Premiership to pull apart and get them to lock on and manipulate them and knock the ball inside so Liverpool did this a lot

that is a genuine specific tactical problem to spurs and if someone on TV made that point congratulations you've made the like the best point criticism you've just made it in here yeah but I agree that no one else says it I'd rather now at this point see someone analyse what they are trying to do as opposed to saying how stupid they are for not doing this but what I'm saying is we know the world we live in we know we live in the world of you know we put clips out for this podcast but those guys are trying to

put out clips that are going to bait Tottenham fans into engaging with them what else is worse than that they put it to the manager then yeah but this is what I'm saying help yourself out he's a smart bloke help yourself out that's all I want from him that's all I want I don't want to lose Andrew Pocicoglu from the Premier League I agree I agree I agree but I just think there has to be nuance in this and like the longer I've done this job I kind of feel that real like dogmatists will always fail in the end

All I want for Christmas is new ones There has to be I'm not talking about the way they even play the way they play I understand that as Hamza's saying you have to go back to the goalkeeper to draw their position out to create space but when the risk

how far it weighs the reward when it does with someone who can't really deal with the ball at their feet then it's madness to do it. Leave him alone Salah got two goals and two assists Trent was amazing Sobbeslai was incredible McAllister was brilliant Graeme Baird was outstanding Hamza makes a good point because we should talk about the team at the top of the table and were absolutely exceptional because that was the other point that we took away from watching it in the office we were going crikey Liverpool are good and I was like oh no I've been showing it on the podcast for bloody ages Hamza

Alison, quite good Liverpool, I thought. Yeah, but they had no choice but to be good. Don't say but, come on. No, no, no. My interpretation of the match was that Liverpool are going to win probably multiple trophies, actually. They look well-primed for that. Just come round, Gregor, finally. The only way you can do that is by being sensible and pacing yourself. So...

I was at the Carabao Cup game where Liverpool made a lot of changes for the game against Southampton and Arnie Slott was at pains to say he wasn't making those changes with Tottenham in mind. He was making them with the season in mind. He's thinking long term. He goes into each game with, I think, efficiency is the thing he concentrates on the most. He's not particularly interested in five nils or six threes. It's two nil, wham, bam, wham.

And then BIP contained making changes, thinking about what's coming ahead, what's coming ahead. But Spurs were so silly that Liverpool were able to score six and it should have been nine or ten, given the clear chances they had.

The key point is they were able to do that and be entertaining without expending too much energy. It wasn't too difficult for them. Ruthless efficiency. It was ruthlessly entertaining, which is, again, another stick to beat Ange with. I think what you score three goals at home against the...

team leading the division and nobody in the stadium thinks there's going to be a turnaround or they're going to come from behind and win the game The scoreline flattered Spurs massively Exactly I went to the shops at half time to get nappies actually and I was thinking about the game on the way and I was like this could be a real hiding and it should have been the scoreline flatters them so like

Those couple of girls changed it. Just quickly, one other last point as far as, you know, there's this narrative that they're great entertainers and stuff. I felt that was true earlier in the season and I said that in here. You watch them, the number of sweeping moves and attacks, like fast, back to front, direct, dynamic attacks. Magnificent stuff. In the last few weeks they've been calamitous. They've not been the great entertainers, they've been Calamity Jane. Like, they've been...

quite lucky in some games too so but back to Liverpool they just smothered the centre of the pitch which is where Spurs try and often try and break the lines and get they try and go through the middle to get out wide smothered that kept winning the ball turning it over time and time again and some there were some individual performances like Sabozlai was an absolute dream an absolute dream boat as well by the way I don't think we've ever really acknowledged what an absolute smoke show he is you just feel like all three of those all three of their midfielders could either play six eight or ten well

Which is the amazing thing that Hamza you've touched on this as well so much was made in the summer about not getting the signings and etc and that's such an incredible thing to then take what you've got and rotate them around so effectively for each opponent The first or second goal I think was both Sabozlai and McAllister Sabozlai went for the first header and McAllister scored a second that's two of them getting into the box

Trent again was just playing some of those passes that you like not just the cross did you see the little clip before that earlier in the first half where he just sort of it was like a like a sand wedge where like I don't know you've got like a massive tree on front of you you're trying to you've got to get so high to get on the green did you play golf? I used to did you? and you know like you think ah bugger it I'll try this get the sand wedge out and you try and like you know really loose wrists right under it

and he just did that to Salah just like a little clip do you know what we worked together so long that yesterday I was like oh Greg is back tomorrow and I was like the last time he was on he was talking about the way Trent hits the ball I bet he'll come back on with some analogy about it again and you did it was wonderful it was incredible absolutely wonderful I wanted to finish with a point about Mohamed Salah Hamza I'm going to come to you on an excellent piece that you did with George Willoughby last week but I'm just going to present you some stats because it'll make your argument even harder

Liverpool's Mo Salah has scored and assisted 10-plus goals in the Premier League this season, 15 goals, 11 assists. With just 16 games played, this is the joint quickest in terms of appearances by a player to hit double figures for both in a single campaign, which was Harry Kane in 2020-21. This is the sixth Premier League season in which...

Salah has both scored and assisted 10 plus goals the most of any player in the competition's history overtaking Wayne Rooney Salah has scored and assisted in seven different Premier League games for Liverpool this season already the joint most by a player in a single campaign in the competition alongside Alan Shearer Thierry Henry Robin Van Persie Bruno Fernandes and Harry Kane but Hamza your point

in your piece with George was that you can maybe see in previous trends with previous players when looking at a broad set of data why Liverpool have yet to rush in with a new contract. Tell us a bit more. To be clear, I think... I know, I've set you up for a fall now, haven't I? I think that on Christmas Day, Liverpool will announce Christmas presents and, like, yeah, sell a contract. I could see that coming as well. But... No, yeah, so essentially...

was started not too long ago and the idea was you should give Salah whatever he wants and I think when reading Paul Joyce's pieces I noticed that he was quite keen to stress actually it's a question of allocation of resources and you've got to be a bit more thoughtful about this for a number of reasons for example let's start with if you sign Salah to a I've discussed this before you give him a three year contract on half a mil and we're going to not include bonuses and whatever that essentially locks up

half a million a week that is, 78 million over three years. And what happens at the end of those three years is you've spent 78 million on an asset whose performances are likely to sort of drop off a bit, and then in three years' time you've got to replace them. Now imagine doing that and Van Dyck, let's say you give them both two-year deals, Van Dyck's on, let's say, 300, Salah 500, for the sake of simple maths. Again, you lock up around 81 million for two seasons' worth of performances with slightly declining numbers, and I'll come to this in a second later,

and then you have to replace both again. So the first thing is there's an allocation of resources question. The other thing is that as players get older, they change. And for wingers and forwards in particular, their peak is a lot earlier. And that's why you've got to be careful with these players. So if you look at the rate of dribbles, for example...

Imagine a simple line chart with a peak right on the y-axis then very precipitously dropping. So at the age of 18, wingers typically average around three dribbles per 90, successful dribbles. By the age of 24, six years later, it drops to 1.35. By the age of 30, it's 0.91. So you can see with dribbles in particular, the very quick rate of decline and that's because of physiological change over time and players becoming a bit different as they age.

This sort of effect has not eluded Salah. So he also used to dribble at 3.73 dribbles per 90 in 2015. Then it dropped to 2.24 in 2019. Now it's 1.61, although I need to update those stats. It was a week ago, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So roughly the same. It's all right, we'll let you off.

And you've seen this change over Salah's career. So he used to have very, very high XG numbers and they're still really high, but his XA has increased now. So he's become a slightly more creative player because he's less sort of one-on-ones playing to the wing. And when you think of this as well, remember as a coach, let's say you've got a dribbler, you've got a winger and you'd like to play through the wings and dribble and all that sort of stuff.

If the player gets older, they can't do that anymore. So you think, okay, how do I get that quality? How do I tack through the wings? Because this is a tactical thing that I want my team to do if that player's not doing it. So you've got to make adjustments elsewhere. Maybe you get the fullback to go on. Maybe you get the midfielder to run on. You've got all these things. And when you look at that,

And then you compare Salah to other... He does, admittedly, take incredible care of his body. But you can look at other forwards. Cristiano Ronaldo is a fantastic example of this. When he returned to Manchester United, he was largely rubbish. He scored goals...

but mostly to the detriment of the team he wasn't able to press because physiologically it's harder to keep up as you get older he became a box player and this happens with older players as they get older you become all these things before you join Man United you should too yeah exactly and I

Ronaldo at his best is better than Salah I don't think anyone's going to disagree with that I love Mohamed Salah but Ronaldo's one of the best players ever and if even he aged poorly and there are countless other players that have aged poorly there's a few that have sort of managed to keep it maybe Ibrahimovic but would you say that looking at and it is a fascinating piece and I would recommend all listeners dig it out but

The charts, did they show, because it was slightly on this kind of 32 age, wasn't it, where you started to see a final kind of burst and then it could drop, which is why the fascinating dilemma over the contract, right? Do you think it looks like, as a final summary, that Salah is looking like bucking a lot of the trends in your piece or that actually it's just he's clever adapted his game to mask some of those changes that we don't see? I think the latter, but it's entirely possible that he just...

continues being very good and does this. And maybe he's an exception like Ibrahimovic or Tiago Silva, where they're just brilliant throughout their careers. However, from a club perspective, from a sporting director perspective, you have to look at all this data and go... We analysed, I think, 79,000 players. They all drop off. And people say, well, you're looking at just all the players. When you're looking at an average 33 or 35-year-old, of course their stats are going to be lower. But remember...

The average 33 or 35-year-old forward in Europe's top five leagues is by definition going to be a good player because they've actually managed to resist the effects of it. They're still playing at that level. So from a sporting director perspective, you look at all this evidence, you go...

amazing players were dropped off a few have managed to stay and even those that have managed to stay at the top level they had to adjust their game and Salah has adjusted his game can you still do that will he still warrant for example £500,000 a week

next year, the year after? Does that output stay the same? That, I think, is the question. And I think most people would probably say, we think so, I'm willing to gamble on that. But I think the gamble is bigger than people realise and that's why there's a bit of negotiation hesitation. I wouldn't hand a three-year deal. Another point is how well you think a player would be willing to

that decline when they even start to accept it's happening. Well, like Ronaldo did not. Ronaldo did not. Most players of this level and this stature do not. They will not accept it. So that is another consideration. Walker, De Bruyne, Gundogan, amazing players. Only a few seasons ago. And you watch them this season. One year ago, yeah. And as I said quite recently, it happens like that. There's a click of the fingers. He's back, ladies and gentlemen. He's back with his click of the fingers.

It is a fascinating piece. If you look for Hamza's name and Mo Salah anywhere on the internet, I'm sure you will find this piece. It is really interesting. But as you say, Hamza, I wouldn't be surprised if we got some kind of nice social media content out of Liverpool over the Christmas period about some of these contracts. We've done it again, guys. We've done one match for a whole half of the show. But what a match. Such as it was at Christmas... No, I'm not going to say it.

Anyway, we talked a lot about Tottenham and Tottenham fans. I'd love to hear your views on Andrew Postacoglu and his future at your club. So do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. But we're going to have a little break, which is time. Gregor, you must have missed this for the last two weeks. Well, desperately. You've been asking Susie, could you ask me a question about a former footballer? Anyway, who am I talking about when I say a former footballer? And this is hard, this one. Who played for Wimbledon, West Ham, Aston Villa, Bolton and Ipswich?

and captained England under-21s but never got a full call-up to the senior side, and featured in the Boxing Day classic Chelsea 4, Aston Villa 4 in 2007. Find out after the break.

Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Alison Rudd, Hamza Khalid Luna and Gregor Robertson with me. You will not believe how long that break was, listeners. Hours, hours and hours. Loads more clues. I gave them the first name and eventually they got that the answer was Gregor Robertson.

Nigel Rio-Coker. You're in a bit of a bad mood about not getting that, aren't you? A bit stroppy. Slapped a chair and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A bit annoyed. I would say the epitome of this game, the Nigel Rio-Coker game. And as I say, he was a part of that Chelsea 4 Aston Villa 4 Boxing Day game. And I thought I would mention, just very briefly, Boxing Day, because it's at this time of year. If you're spending time on social media, like I will be tomorrow on Christmas Eve, because I'm working and trying to desperately see if any of the rival newspapers have got any good stories that we should be covering.

Someone always puts out the tweet of the games from Boxing Day 1963. Do you remember this? Always the results. I'm going to have to... And I've got how the Times covered it here.

Look at that. Isn't that beautiful? One picture on the whole page. It's not very enticing. Some of the smallest results. See if I can read this. So the Blackpool won Chelsea 5. Sorry, Neil, producer. Sorry about that. Burnley 6, Manchester United 1. Fulham 10, Ipswich 1. Leicester 2, Everton 0. A bit boring. Liverpool 6, Stoke 1. Nottingham Forest 3, Sheffield United 3. Sorry, I should be doing this in my classified results. I shouldn't actually.

There you go. It's good. Cracking. You should probably just describe to listeners what the page looks like. So the page, listeners, has got a kind of summary story at the top.

66 goals in first division alone from our association football correspondent. I've got to go into my BBC voice now. It's got one picture at the top, which is actually from a rugby game, and it's got lots and lots of reports riddled all over the place. And if you want to see more, we are going to be printing this page and the words from the games on Christmas Day. The best one, I think, though, this sounds Rudd-esque, what do you reckon, Gregor? From Fulham, her favourite team. Headline, seasonal fantasy at Fulham. Apprehension drowned in girls.

LAUGHTER

But the thought that, by the end, the history books would also have come to find out that the last time Fulham scored 10 goals was in the realms of fantasy. Now listen, it turns out you had a long-lost relative still writing for the Times back in the day. What was their name? Well, they're no bylines. Not like you egotists with your bloody bylines and headshots and everything. Not a single byline. As I say, in the whole paper we've just got from our football correspondent, from our rugby football correspondent,

Yeah, I mean, and also given those chat in the first half, there's another headline here. Tottenham's polish cracks under pressure. Some things never change. Anyway, you can read more about that on the Times website on Christmas Day. But back to this weekend's action, back to the present day, we'll leave 1963 behind. And I wanted to start talking about Arsenal. Obviously, thank you for joining us.

grim news for them about Bakayo Saka and his injury Gary Jacob reporting on the Times website that Saka could be out for a good couple of weeks Gary is actually in the Mikel Arteta press conference now as we speak so maybe by the time you're listening to this he has an update either with good news or more grim news Mikel Arteta never tells you what's happening with his Indian players he might yeah but Gary Jacob will find out though

Doesn't matter what Mikel tells him, he might find out. But I wanted to talk just quickly about the fact that they've scored a lot of goals, Hamza, all of a sudden, having written about how they only score from set pieces and Alison, you were at Fulham and we said, can they only score against set pieces? They've all of a sudden scored a load of goals in two games against Crystal Palace. But you, Hamza, think that there might be a choice for Mikel Arteta to make between either feast or famine? I think,

We may have discussed this before, the idea of goal ratios. As in, if you want to be a really good defence, you probably are going to have to limit the way that you attack a bit.

just to make sure that you're not opening transition, you face fewer opportunities, that sort of stuff. And if you want to create loads of attacking opportunities, you are going to take risks, you're going to push your players forwards, which means that you might get caught on the counter. Spurs. Yeah, but it's like every team ever, trying to find that balance is a really difficult thing. But when you look at Mikel Arteta, I think what you see, and I think this is a really underappreciated aspect of him, you actually see him, because this is still his first job,

You actually see him learning on the job and developing his philosophy and people misunderstand him as a pep disciple. But he's learned a lot from pep, but he's also learned a lot himself. And I think he's generally a more conservative, risk-averse manager. You think that's probably his core belief?

I think it's something he's developed. It may be something that he inherited from David Moyes. David Moyes, yeah, yeah. Maybe, but I think... Or Alex McLeish. But I think it's actually something he's developed. I trace a lot of it back to... Old Scots, basically. His experience last season. I'm glad you said it, not me. That's fine. When they had a period where they lost to, I think...

West Ham, Villa, Liverpool and they played quite well but they were attacking a lot but it just didn't quite go in and they had that Dubai break and then they reset and then after that the whole emphasis was on dominating out of possession suffocating opponents that sort of stuff

But interestingly, and that sort of framed the next few months and then now we have this weird situation where Jesus has come in, sort of product of contingency, plays in the cup, scores a hat-trick and he scores again another couple and they score five. But the interesting thing here is that I think Arsenal had five big chances and scored three of them and scored two more goals and had to set a piece, blah, blah, blah. But

Interestingly, Crystal Palace also had three big chances and they missed all of them. And I think when Arteta sees that, he goes, OK, great that we're attacking, but principally I don't want to be in a position where we're facing three big chances. Arteta should have scored his. I can't remember the other two right now, but when he looks at that, I think from what we've seen of him over the past few months, he's going to think, actually, it's fantastic that we're scoring all these goals.

But what I believe in is a tight defense principally and then building upon a tight defense to then become an attacking team, maybe using set pieces to break open games, that sort of stuff. So I think he might not be sort of carried away into some sort of attacking endeavor. I think he might try and tamp it back. But again, it depends on the players that are available. Jesus is...

playing well as a product contingency and Saka's now out so what's he going to do if he can't attack through Saka you have to think of different ways so maybe he will then think alright I can't attack through Saka which means that the attack is limited if we play defensively because he's our main outlet maybe then we have to reconsider how we

attack and maybe we attack more but I don't think he will because I think it comes from this place of caution I think one of the most interesting things about Arsenal is the way that they can flip between those two frames of mind if you want to put it like that depending on the opposition and do it really well and when we were talking about earlier teams who are like or coaches who are like dogmatists and who are wedded to one sort of style of play or approach

I think that's quite admirable. Yeah, positive signs for Arsenal going into it as this busy period continues. I should just say as well, thanks to Guy, a listener from Brazil who got in touch and Hamza, you were just guilty of this as well. So we both need to work on our pronunciation of Gabriel Jesus. Listener in Brazil saying when it's Jesus, it's Portuguese. It's Jesus, not Jesus. Get it right, guys. So sorry about that guy. Yeah, he's right. People listening, always checking in.

You upset about that, Hamza? I don't speak Portuguese. Neither do I, but now we do, so it's fine. I still don't speak Portuguese. Yeah, yeah. It's all right. It's okay. What's his name, this guy? He's called Guy. He's a listener. You just got in touch...

He actually said you're his favourite, so don't ruin this now. Thank you very much, Guy. I really appreciate the feedback. Fantastic. I'll work on it. What was I saying about you lot being egotists? Anyway, let's talk about some damaged egos at Old Trafford. Manchester United defeated again.

A brilliant, brilliant performance by Bournemouth. I should just say that. Due to our abilities in the office to watch matches that aren't necessarily on Sky Sports because we're a sports desk and we can watch everything possible, I was able to watch all 90 minutes of this match. Truly extraordinary, extraordinary game. A brilliant performance by Bournemouth. It could have been far more, if I'm honest. But, I mean, Manchester United, I've seen this game, and as I said, it was at the Tottenham game and we were talking about Tottenham before.

I don't quite understand if anyone can, from a point of view of managing a situation, we've talked about Andrew Possecoglu managing a situation, Gregor, you've just said about Mikel Arteta doing well flipping between two scenarios. As much as we praise Ruben Amorim, we have on this show quite a lot and we were praising him on Thursday for how he's handling the Marcus Rashford situation, I don't understand how many changes he seems to make in every game. This whole thing about, oh, I'm going to let players, I need to see them. When I arrived at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium on Thursday and saw that he dropped Onana,

and changed the back three, basically, having just had a great win against City. And I know City are playing badly, but it's a great win for Manchester United. And I thought the back three with Maguire in it played quite well. And he changes it all again. I don't... Does anyone have any ideas why that might be? Because you're just...

you're not helping yourself build a little bit of momentum, surely. Just cup rotation, wasn't it? But a cup rotation in a game that surely, like a cup rotation for Arnie Slott and Liverpool when they're top of the table makes perfect sense. A cup rotation for Uwe Ammerin when he's just taken over...

Never a few injuries European football to contend with. But changing the goalkeeper though? Yeah, he's given me a chance. Do you want to see what he does? But as in, given you actually watched the match, what did you find surprising about it? Was there anything surprising about it? Not hugely surprising in a positive sense for Manchester United. One thing that I am baffled by is Kobi Mainu. Where has Kobi Mainu gone? Can the real Kobi Mainu please stand up? Another player sucked into the vortex. That's what I was wondering. That's what I was wondering. Because he also, he brought him on

and it's this confidence thing right you know you have all these players who are either signed and maybe have a certain idea of what it is to then play for Manchester United or Kobi Mainu who's like Marcus Rashford one of our own come through the academy brilliant player and he just looks like he's had it zapped out of him you know it's a bit like you know Space Jam you know when they have all their talent zapped out of them by aliens who come and then steal it it's like that it's like someone's kind of zapped it out all the talent and skill out of him he looks like he's lost all his confidence and

Do you think the expectation was too high on him? Oh, hugely, hugely. But that's part of the problem with the Manchester United narrative, isn't it? That they need something to latch on to. A Kobi Mainu, a good player, who knows? Maybe a great player, but let's not get carried away. Oh, no, we have already because Manchester United need it. They need him so much and too much is expected of him.

I was completely... Do you think the system suits him? I didn't watch this much. Do you think the system suits him? I thought it might suit him when it first came in. I thought if you played him with maybe someone like Ugarte who's prepared to sit a little bit more and doesn't necessarily break through the lines and stuff...

I thought it might suit him a little bit more. But that's the other thing as well with a lot of the changes is that he's also trying lots of different players in different positions. You know, Ahmad Diallo, we were raving about him last week, brilliant playing further forward. And yes, he said he's played him at wingback. But then there's part of me that was watching this Bournemouth game and going, this is the flip side where it's not as good to change everyone around all the time. Because Ahmad Diallo hasn't built any relationships consistently with maybe Bruno Fernandes on the right hand side of the pitch, for example.

You're looking for solutions too though, Tom. I mean, even the games they won, they were not being good. No. Like they were locked out against City. They did lock out against City, but that's my point about the changes that I felt watching the City game, that there were a couple of little things there that the back three with Maguire in the centre and Martinez to his left...

pretty decent and then with Maswari and Dallow you know quite defensive but at least it looked like it worked and made sense and Ahmad further forward I agree the out of position stuff looked like there were some steps and progress had been made but that seems to be and I think as much as this makes me look like an idiot because I said I thought he'd be a good signing but

I don't understand how you're not looking at Rasmus Hoyland versus Joshua Xerxe and going, well, Hoyland is a better option, particularly for this system, but also just as someone who might score. Hamza, you know... You didn't shoot. No, but he looks like when he... Everyone laughs, right? It's a shots agenda. I said this thing ages ago. I expected to be proved wrong at some point, and they still just haven't taken shots. No, but he does at least...

Of the two of them, he at least faces towards the goal where you need to score. That's a good point. Xerxe's facing the other way and just isn't very good at holding up the ball. Hoyland, at least in these three games that I've watched, looks like he's got a bit of a turn of pace. He's got a bit of scrap in him. These are just things that I'm like, why would you not...

maybe it's my role as an editor right where I'm looking at narrative all the time and I can see these things coming but why as this new manager he's completely lost all any goodwill or momentum that he had after winning a Manchester derby in the last minute by making loads of changes

and losing in kind of embarrassing fashion to Tottenham and then getting comprehensively beaten by Bournemouth I mean you're just watching that game and going look at this team look at this Bournemouth team I wouldn't swap any player in the Manchester United team other than maybe Bruno Fernandes for anyone in the Bournemouth team as a Bournemouth fan you'd be watching that going we have got the better team here we've got the better team better coach we've got the better

and better players. They're trying to discover who they are. If you play with Xerxe, I imagine the idea is for him to drop in so the actual, the 10s either side of him can get in the box more. If you play with Hoyland, it's the other way around. The striker gets in the box, the 10s facilitate. I think he's still just trying to learn how to use them. I think the Rashford thing is a big mistake, but as in the way that he's been treated.

but I also entirely empathise with Rashford in that how long has he been at the club 20 years a long time I can't I can't imagine 20 years I'm 27 right 20 years at one single place God you'd get Kim

I'll keep that in mind for your next appraisal. Kids stay at home until they're 18, and then they're like, I can't wait till you go to university. And that's a place where they're actually loved, and they don't have the media constantly scrutinising them. They don't have to pull them every week. Okay, they don't get paid, these kids, right? You didn't have a camera crew following you around at university, have you? What's going on? I really feel for Rashford, and I feel the same for Cobby as well, because... I feel for him as well, by the way. That's what I'm saying. He still needs to discover who he is as a player, because what...

When he was playing for England, it was quite clear that he's a good footballer. But what specific type of footballer was never clear. And if you look statistically at him, you go, he does stuff, but...

I'm not quite sure what stuff he's great at yet. But when you look at him technically, you go, obviously there's a player there. It's just the route which he takes is now up in the air. So he's got to find that himself and his manager's got to work with him on that. If he's not looking great at the moment, that's not his fault. He's 19 and there are senior players around him that should be helping him. But that's what I was interested by. I wasn't...

intrigued that I thought Amarin might instill him with some confidence and just go, you know, go and do what you're really good at. Go and enjoy your football, etc. And I feel like he's actually pulling him out of the spotlight. Anyway, we'll talk. The crux of your question, I think, Tom, is you're trying to work out if someone, anybody, comes into Manchester United after the start of the season, so they've had no prep, do they come in and think...

I'll just muddle along and try and move us up the table and do what I can week to week. And that's my priority. Or do they have that sort of strength of confidence in them and their staff that they're not interested in results? They know it's a not very good place. So they're just going to do what they need to do this season regardless.

regardless of where they finish. It's like a pre-season in mid-season. Yeah, and I think if that's what's going on, you have to have incredible strength of character to do it because there won't be patience from the fans and there might not be patience from the board. But,

But presumably that's what he said at the interview. Presumably that is what he said. Do not expect me to start winning every game and playing great attacking football. I'm going to be doing what I need to do and that will incorporate losing games. Absolutely. The sporting director needs to do that but they sacked him. There's a way of doing it coming back to the Tottenham point about

the idea that, yes, you can absolutely do that, but if you're doing it and look like you're slightly going backwards, you have Manchester United fans walking out at 60 minutes from Old Trafford and things. It's about vibes, man. Keep the vibes high. It's Christmas. But what did he learn? Presumably, he learned a hell of a lot from that defeat. I think he would be, but I think...

I'm just slightly intrigued by the amount of risk he's taking in those moments to lose some of that maybe goodwill. Anyway, we will talk more about Manchester United. We have to whiz through some final topics on the show. Gregor, I wanted to ask you about Manchester City. You've been off for two weeks. Were you expecting them to come back and they'd be back on track tomorrow?

a few stats for you before you come in City have already lost nine games in all competitions this season only in 2019-20 and 2016-17 as a side managed by Pep Guardiola lost more matches in a season a whole lot

a whole season and they're already on nine games City are winless in five consecutive Premier League away games for the first time under Guardiola did you see this we've been fascinated by it all season before you went away you were slightly teetering towards the more I think this season's gone now you must have been absolutely baffled

Yeah, Hamza actually asked me earlier when, you know, did you think this was... There was a... Sorry, the question was did you think... When did you think that this was kind of terminal for City this season? And when you... We had to do a kind of a piece quite early in this sort of run sort of saying what does this mean for them? My instinct then was that this is... The season's over for them. Actually, my instinct now is that... I can't believe I'm going to say this but I think it's over for Pep Guardiola at City. I think...

I know people will shout at me and go, what, what? Are you mad? But I think the same things that we've just been talking about with Amarum and Posto Coglu and the experiences that a group of players go through under a manager, the phrase I always use is the water passing under the bridge, it affects the relationship you have with, and even someone of the standing and one of the best managers of all time that he's always regarded as, even someone like Pep,

The experiences the players have gone through with them this year will change the relationship they've had with them. So unless they're going to really rip everything up and we know that the team needs a bit of an overhaul but even then that's a kind of risk it's a new there's new kind of there'll be a new sporting director there next season as well like

There's a lot of change that needs to happen and the question is whether, first of all, whether Pep's going to be willing to do that because he'll know there's a lot of change and he'll want to leave on a high and I'm sure he'll want to do that. A lot of things have to go right. A lot of change has to happen for him to be the man to succeed with City next season because this season is over. Stunned silence, I would say, in the studio. Not just at the prediction from Gregor Robson but such a staunch...

He's off the fence, guys. I love dad of two, Gregor Robertson. He's off the fence. He's sleep deprived and he's coming in with big hitters. I absolutely love it. You don't need to qualify it. It was absolutely perfection. I absolutely love it. I can't wait to put it out on social media, as I said earlier. RIP, your mentions, I think the kids say. Let's finish with a chat about another team who have changed manager, Hamza. As I said earlier when I was talking about watching the Manchester United game,

game in the office Sky Sports had Fulham Southampton and I swear there must have been some executives going why why do we have to show these little teams it's so annoying why can't we always show the big teams but thankfully you were there tell us what you thought of Southampton and their challenges that their new manager is going to face in trying to keep them in the Premier League remember it's Christmas

Yeah, it's a really difficult situation. I don't... I feel really quite bad for the manager. He came in and, weirdly, he wasn't positioned... He was positioned to the... You have the press box at Fulham. And he was in it, basically. Instead of being in the director's box opposite, in the very nice Riverside stand, he was just there. So, wandered over, said hello, wished him best of luck. You do wonder... I mean, fundamentally, more than any other thing, the...

The best determinant of league position is squad quality. A manager usually adds around, let's say, 5% to a team. They can increase it by 5%, decrease it by 5%. If you're really good, maybe you get up to 8% or 10%. But the fundamentals of the team and their capacity to perform is defined by the squad. And Southampton's squad isn't very good, and Southampton's squad is also...

largely built like I mentioned with Leeds under Bielsa to a specific style of play so you can't really just switch styles of play with this group of players so you have to sort of play within these limits otherwise if you try and play long ball with these guys they'll probably just get battered so I didn't see anything here that intimated at signs of

them knowing having a plan of how to win matches or a route to win matches or score goals even when I watched them in the Russell Martin I watched them live against Manchester United they created chances in that first 30 minutes so really good then they conceded a penalty or they didn't score a penalty and then the game sort of unravelled for them but there was an idea there of how to attack how to try and score in this match I understand it was with the interim manager but

there wasn't that and they are so far off the pace now it's such an enormous job I didn't really see any point in changing the manager because he's got this awful job he has to come in now try and rest the team up

when their players just aren't Premier League level, that's really difficult. It's an awful position. I feel really bad for Southampton supporters and I know some were upset with the report, but as in, the match was abysmal. And that was only, the reason they didn't lose was because... That's why you're there, Hamza, to tell it like it is. Fulham...

were also weirdly bad and even though Fulham were really bad they still probably should have won they just didn't score the chance that they had Ramsdale made a good save yeah that was I'm sorry that anyone had to watch my sister's friend she went to watch it it was so bad she's like I'll say hello it's not your responsibility Hamza don't worry it's the responsibility of Ivan Juric to turn this Southampton side around and we'll see if he can do that they've got a home match against West Ham on Boxing Day

There's a little bit of a bum note to end on, guys. So I thought we'd lift the spirits a little bit and just get your insights to a piece that you can read on the Times website by the time you'll be listening to this show, where I asked our football writers to pick their favourite memory of 2024. Alison Rudd, tell us what yours was.

Well, keep it in the game family. Tony Cascarino and I went on a road trip. Ah, the road trip. The road trip to Anfield because Tony Cascarino wanted to ask a question in the press conference of Jurgen Klopp before he left. So we went for the penultimate game at Anfield under Jurgen Klopp.

And it made sense for us to go together because just by pure coincidence, the first game Tony Cascarino ever went to Anfield was against Spurs when they won 7-0 in 1978. And it was my first game. I didn't know him then, but we both happened to be there for our first game on the same day. If anyone asks us, what's your favourite Liverpool goal of all time? We both have the same goal, which was the seventh that day scored by Terry McDermott. It was...

ball came out from the back sweeping move involves Stevie Hirons my favourite player and it was so and in this game excuse me I have a cold in this game at Anfield

They were playing Spurs. So it was just so symmetrical and wonderful. So we went together because it was a long drive there and back. We did end up sounding a bit like an old married couple, bickering away and everything. My only regret is that we didn't turn this into a YouTube episode. That's my only regret. It was fun. It was fun. We even sang songs and so on. But, you know, we covered lots of topics and we never ran out of things to talk about. And...

So, I don't know, how many hours were we in the car together? Ten hours in the car together plus the time at the game. I mean, it was a long chat. And it was only...

The next morning when we both turned up to the game podcast that I overheard Tony Cascarino telling the head of sport at Anfield he had a chat with Terry McDermott. He hadn't even mentioned it to me and I was writing up the piece and what a great payoff that the full symmetry of the whole story was the scorer of that game in 1978 had a chat with Tony Cascarino. He didn't even

even mention it to me I did wonder when you were telling this story I was like is she going to bring up the McDermott thing but I actually found it so funny and it tells you so much about Tony Cascarino that we could be in the car for five and a half hours and he doesn't mention it's because your chat's that good Alison on the way up we discussed how he was on his phone texting former Liverpool players that he knows

Oh, you're going to be there, yeah. It'd be great to have a chat, you know, it'd be good for the peace and...

Most of them are saying, we'd love to, mate, but I'm on, you know, corporate duty. And he actually does, he meets the one, oh. Let it go, it's okay. It was funny, it was funny, because I did find out. Hamza, your favourite memory of 2024? You gave me an hour. I did give you an hour, yeah, from the start of the show. The biggest memory of 2024 was, I remember when I got a tweet alert at 11am, I was coming back from a Bournemouth match in the morning.

and Paul Joyce tweeted a clock moving and I literally nearly fell to my knees in the middle of the road right that's enough that's too Liverpool I do have a good fade out fade out there was the record XG in a match this season Liverpool Newcastle 7 XG wow but no the actual the actual one I mean sincerely

When I went to the Newcastle match I met, in football you meet cool people all the time and usually you just try and play it cool. I met Louise Taylor and she told me a story, the first time I said hello, she told me a story that when she was at an old firm match Pat Nevin was sat down, he was reading the paper.

And there was a preview about Old Firm, the Tactics piece. And he turned to Louise and he said, is this guy real? This is cool. And it was my piece. And I was honestly, I'm genuinely chuffed that Pat Nevin thought it was cool. That is good. And if Pat Nevin listens, hi Pat. Hi Pat. That was really cool. Again, what was it I said about rampant egotism? Anyway, eh.

Gregor Robertson, your favourite memory, and if it's Liverpool, I swear to God, we're just killing the record now. You put this on me too. This is going to sound really weird, right? You can pick having your second child, obviously. Well, clearly, yeah, that should be it. But in football? The John McGinn song? This is going to sound weird. It was the hope and excitement I felt before the Euros about Scotland being in the Euros and...

and what happened next almost doesn't matter because those feelings are still... That's not true. I remember those morning shows. They did afterwards but at that moment in time those days and weeks before the Euros those feelings and emotions were real and I think everyone in football would recognise that so...

That's one for me. I also enjoyed Junior Eros speaking to Pierre Van Huydel and interviewing him because he was an absolute hero of mine when I was a kid. There you go. That's nice. That's a nice way to end. Mine, working with all of you lot, obviously. It wasn't the Jude goal. The game podcast. No, if I was choosing a moment, yes, being in the office when we thought England were minutes away from going out.

and then Jude Bellingham scored an overhead kick and we're like it's back on guys the Gareth Southgate dream lives on that was the worst moment of my time I'm kidding we've got a couple more episodes to review our best moments but that's all we've got time for on today's show Alison Rudd Hamza Khaliq Luna and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we hope you have a great Christmas we're back on the 27th to discuss all the Boxing Day action see you then