S4 Ep47: DNC-Palooza, Part 1 (with Joe Perticone)
44:55 Share

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, Allbirds, Skims, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand, and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making selling, and for the shoppers buying, simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify.

home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not-so-secret secret, with ShopPay, that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going...

So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Skims uses.

Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash Audioboom, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash Audioboom to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash Audioboom.

Win at wowvegas.com, America's best social casino with more than 900 free play games at your fingertips. Winners say wow when they play at wowvegas.com. Experience the real thrills of Vegas at home or on the go. Claim your free coins today at wowvegas.com. Wow Vegas is a social casino. No purchase necessary. Void where prohibited. Play responsibly. Conditions apply. See website for details. wowvegas.com.

Hello everyone and welcome to the Focus Group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of The Bulwark, and this week is part one of our two-part foray into the Democratic National Convention. There were a lot of wild things that were almost going to happen at this convention, from massive protests over the Israel-Hamas war to a nasty floor fight after Joe Biden dropped out. But as of this taping, the big protests haven't materialized and it's Kamala's coronation.

In just a minute, we'll talk about what is happening through the first couple of nights of the convention. But before we do that, some quick housekeeping. We are taping this on Wednesday after the first two nights of the convention. We'll cover the final two nights next week. At the time we're recording this, Kamala Harris, Tim Walls, Adam Kinzinger, and several other VIPs have yet to speak. But by the time you hear this, they will have. And don't worry, we will get to them.

My guest today is the Bulwark's national political reporter, Joe Perticone, who is here with me in Chicago, though we are not together in Chicago. But hey, Joe, thanks for being here. Hey, how's it going? Good, man. What are you? You're in the press tent?

Yep. It's like right outside the arena. And I've been in the arena all night most nights, but in the press tent, it's a little quieter right now. So, gotta be here. Okay. Well, look, you've covered both the RNC and the DNC on the ground for us. I know you were more impressed with the logistics. I

and the organization of the RNC. Tell me how the two conventions compare just as like large scale events in the organization and also crowd energy. I would say that, you know, the organization of it

is it's not good here. I mean, for guests and press, like there was a huge line for guests last night. I don't know how long it was. Could have been half a mile. So it's been really difficult. They should have had more points of entry. But inside the arena, once everyone's actually in, it's...

incomparable to the RNC, it is deafeningly loud. And it really depends on the skill of the speaker and who the speaker is. But for example, you know, people were snoozing when Kathy Hochul was speaking Monday night and then AOC came on and totally like brought down the whole building. And so it's been really loud and really energetic. And it's

You can always tell, like at the RNC, that they're very jealous of the lack of celebrity appearances that the Democrats have. And you can see, for example, like the Republicans, their main event was Kid Rock and Hulk Hogan. And it's like Democrats have Lil Jon. They had to bump James Taylor. Like James Taylor had to get sidelined because they were running out of time. But there's so many stars here.

Doesn't mean anything for votes, but it really chaps the hides of Republicans, I think. They crave the celebrity star power. And so you can just feel there's just a much bigger energy here. Yeah. And that's interesting just because the Republicans had a lot of energy. Like, like the Republicans were pretty hopped up and there was almost a sense of euphoria and like fait accompli, like they were going to win. But still the energy you feel like is really different. Yeah.

Yeah. So at the RNC, they were riding the high of Biden still being in the race, the assassination attempt on Trump, which really fizzled out because of who the attacker was. You know, he wasn't this politically motivated leftist. He was just a nut job. In addition to that, there was a little bit of disbelief because Trump was running ahead of Democrats. That hasn't been the case at all his entire political career. He's always been

blow in the polls. He was down in 2016. He was down in 2020. He's always had the, or liked to have the underdog mantra and he wasn't able to have that going into it. So there was this disbelief like, oh my gosh, are we going to win this thing? And now I think they're back to that kind of scrambling paranoia and

And you can tell it's just really bothering them. And each night of this convention is probably making it worse. Yeah. So you also mentioned that the pro-Gaza protests you attended were complete duds. And you said what, they only left you with a sunburn? Tell us about that.

Yeah. So they were anticipating 30,000 to 40,000 people. So the organizer on the phone, he told me that they had 15,000. That was the number they called. I was there. It was not 15,000 people. 15,000 people could fill an arena like this one. It was probably 3,000 at its peak. And then you saw some clips of violence, of people bashing on fences.

People were saying that they breached the perimeter. It's like they knocked over a fence on like the extra outer layer. There's so many layers of security. That was in a tiny group. And I think when you saw people marching downtown, there's like a few dozen people. It really hasn't amounted to anything. And one thing I noted in the newsletter about Monday's protest was that the protesters weren't really organized. There were like 10 different groups with 10 different pet projects. There was

Code Pink, which just kind of hates everything. And then there was the Dem Socialists. And then there was the actual pro-Palestine protesters. But there were immigrant groups and there were those old socialist guys who hand out their home printed magazines at every protest. It was just kind of like

The deep, hardcore leftists, like those people were hanging out with nothing to do. And I don't think a lot of these people are regular Democratic voters anyway. Certainly some of the young people are or are expected to be Democratic voters. But a lot of them just struck me as the protest voter, like the Nader voter, the Jill Stein voter. Yeah.

All right, well, listen, I want to get into how voters talked about the convention. So like I said, we're taping this on a Wednesday. So Tuesday, we did a swing voter group. And when we first talked to these Trump to Biden voters this week, they basically hadn't watched the first night of the convention. They didn't watch the RNC either. And it didn't seem to be a priority for any of them. Let's listen to why they didn't and don't care about the convention.

I just feel it's like it's a look at me show. Here I am and standing ovations and people carrying on like just the grand deals, adulations. And here we are. And nothing new is being said. No solutions are being talked about.

And it's just look at me, look at me. And no new message is being said. And then once the show is over, then you're inundated with negative campaign ads and name calling. And she's terrible and she's going to destroy. And so it's just more of the same and just enough. I just saw clips of events that were happening. Something about

camouflage hats and Kamala showing up and surprising everybody. And I mean, that's about the gist of what I saw. So I was like, eh, don't ever gonna watch this right now. I agree that it's just too much of a spectacle. I think it's more in the lines of a circus than it is an actual forum to convey information to the population, which is what it's supposed to be used for.

So I think I try not to watch it because I do not want to feed into America moving even more towards like optics being the whole reason people decide politics. I think we're moving away from candidates explaining their views. And it's just about look at me, look at me and the person who buys the most billboards and say their name as many times as possible will win. So.

i try not to feed into that system and i think the conventions are part of that it just makes me a nervous wreck i mean the first debate the first debate oh my gosh i was watching it like i cannot even believe like the world is watching us people we are laughing stocks here in america and we're america for god's sakes

So since then, I've really tried to stay away from it a little bit. I'm trying to watch news a little bit differently. I mean, you can't watch Fox. You can't watch CNN. The conventions are kind of silly to me, honestly. I'm like, are you kidding me? It's nerve wracking. It makes me worry for this country, for my kids that are just 18, 20 years old.

I'll tell you my biggest concern with the Republican candidate. If he gets in there and he sets up some of these Supreme Justices, I just feel like we are screwed for years. And that's my kids and my grandkids.

Okay. So a little bit of this is like a very typical theme that we see in focus groups, which is that the things that excite us in the political world don't always translate to sort of your average voters who just like, yeah, I'm not sitting through this convention and everybody clapping about everything. On the

other hand, the numbers for the first night have bested the RNC numbers. Many millions of people are watching it. And I also feel like Kamala Harris has only a few opportunities to really introduce herself to the American public. And so I feel like this convention could matter more than most. And so I guess I was a little surprised that this group wasn't more interested. What do you think?

So the woman who said that the conventions are silly, like she's absolutely right. Because the purpose of it is each night has a different theme. And in each theme, they roll out different people who represent these different factions to show, look how big and broad and diverse we are. And that draws out a lot of weird people. And then when they pan to the shots on the floor, you have people all wearing cheese heads and...

and cowboy hats and like wherever they're from, they're kind of dressed that way. It is weird. It is silly. The idea that there's not new policies being introduced is not exactly true. I think like if you had told people 10 years ago that Barack Obama would be calling for expanding housing in a DNC speech,

like that would be unheard of. And now it's kind of new mainstream democratic policy that more housing needs to be built and that zoning needs to be kind of tossed in the garbage. There's also these big contrasts. You had Bernie Sanders opening up for a billionaire governor who was then followed by the former CEO of American Express. I think if you really go deep into who these people are that are doing these speeches, you do see a lot of difference in opinion and different policies.

But in terms of saying what the candidate stands for, you're going to get a lot of that in their speeches. Not nitty gritty policy details, but in kind of broad swath what they stand for. And so you really have to watch on certain nights and pay attention. It was just interesting that it didn't seem to be breaking through to them. But again, it speaks to how exhausted I think a lot of people are with politics.

Yeah. And look, I got to say that these swing voter groups tend to be some of the most exhausted. These are people who tend to not be huge fans of either party. So they are oftentimes, you know, less, I think, eager to sort of do the pomp and circumstance of the parties and participate in that. But I guess I was wondering if there was anything you're seeing or hearing at the convention that could matter to ordinary voters. You just said the thing about housing. Are

Are there messages or messengers that you think might make a real difference in the race? I don't know. I watched Michelle Obama. Man, if she hits the trail for Kamala, because she was outstanding.

Yeah, I think that the Obamas are clearly the best messengers in politics. They're naturally very good at it. In terms of, you know, different types of messengers, they were asked in the focus group what they think of these ex-Republicans speaking. And a lot of them said, oh, it's definitely a good strategy. It's maybe helpful for people who are on the fence in these red states who don't know or seeing someone being able to speak up.

You can really tell that there's a concerted effort to show different types of voices politically at this convention in a way that I don't think you saw in 2016. And I don't think you saw at the RNC a couple weeks ago. I spoke to James Clyburn on Monday, and he emphasized this whole big tent thing.

I don't think that's necessarily something that you would have seen a few years ago. And if these swing voters are picking up on it even slightly, that's probably going to expand beyond, you know, just that.

You know, I do agree with this, that it's so much less about the nitty gritty of what's in the speeches and much more about the sort of general values being projected. And one of the values they clearly want to project by including so many of these Republicans is we are a big coalition and you are welcome here. And I do think that that is strategically smart. You're right. So did the focus group participants. But I want to get into how Trump to Biden voters we talked to

how they were talking about Harris. And it's well documented, if you listen to this podcast, that these swing voters have not been fans of Kamala Harris over the years, but they are starting to shift. We're starting to see her stock rise with them since she's taken over for Biden. Let's listen. She was kind of in the background, but I mean, vice presidents typically are. You don't really...

you know, you don't want to upstage your boss. But since she's kind of stepped forward, I mean, I'm happy she's not a felon. I feel like she's worked her way up. She's earned it. She doesn't seem arrogant to me or cocky. She doesn't bully people. She doesn't name call. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't mind her. I don't know, like,

if there would have been a better candidate. But, you know, I'm leaning toward her. I don't mind her. Like, now I actually feel hopeful. I question her political experience. She was a district attorney, I believe. I'm not sure how much political experience would mean. Sometimes Ronald Reagan was an actor and then we got bully Trump in there. So my opinion really hasn't changed.

Why I'm skeptical is that are people voting for her because she represents the minority or because of her experience? Or is she relatable to two different generations because of what her appearance? And it kind of brings the Obama situation because the greater minority vote came out to vote. So I'm skeptical for that reason.

When she was in Georgia and I'm like, why is Megan Thee Stallion on stage when you come on dance? I'm like, if I want to do that, I go to Instagram. I mean, I like Megan Thee Stallion, but her on stage, I don't need to see this racist right now. I don't know. I just feel like I don't know what she's about. Are we voting for her because she is a black woman? You know, there's that reason why. I mean, it's got to be. It's a one up, I guess.

I like that she behaves like an adult. She doesn't throw tantrums and scream and pout. I like that she is more mature and respectful in the way that she communicates. I do agree that she seems a little bit like a party head and that there's a lot of group views that she is producing and not necessarily her own. But I don't think that's uncommon for politicians.

I like that she is the exact opposite of Trump in almost every way. She's a minority woman who's a prosecutor and he is an old white man who's a felon. I think that is good for the Democrats that they no longer have a candidate that looks similar to Trump. I don't really know much about her, but the one thing that I did like about the Democrat side is Tim Walz, the VP pick.

He has a track record of doing stuff for the people.

So, you know, they're still kind of mixed in there, but people are starting to know more about her. I mean, if you've listened to the show, whenever we would have clips about Kamala, it was always just like, I don't know anything about her. What does she do? What has she done? She's invisible. And now there's a little bit more of she seems like an adult. She's a good speaker. People are starting to form a bit of an impression. It was a black respondent in the group saying, are they just voting for her because she's a black woman, which I will say is a common thing that we see.

Black men specifically, actually often asking that question or bringing up race. But also you heard another woman do it. What did you make of what you heard there? Like, does it sound like you know how everybody once we did the head to head with Trump, how they come out? But how did you sort of receive the swing voters talking about Harris?

So, so much of their impression of her was personality-based, not policy-based. So you didn't hear things like, I heard she's a socialist. I haven't looked into it, but I need to hear about it. You didn't hear that. It was a lot of, oh, she seems like she has a good head on her shoulders. She seems fun. Yeah.

She seems the opposite of Trump in that way. And so I think the political vagueness, especially this close to an election, can kind of work to her advantage because if you don't really know much about someone's policies, you can kind of import your views onto them. And if you like them, then that just kind of helps it get it over the edge.

The opposite is true if Trump is misleading on, for instance, his stance on abortion. He's been very misleading on it, despite a clear track record. But people see the comments he makes about women. They know the history of his behavior towards women. That pushes them away from believing him when he says he'll make abortion okay or he'll leave it alone. And with her, it's just kind of

People understand that she's not as abrasive of a figure. And I noticed, too, when they talk about Trump versus talking about Harris, is you can hear it in their tone. They start talking faster. They're rattling off their answers much quicker instead of kind of thinking about what they're saying because they already have their minds very made up about him. And when that door is shut, that's helpful for Harris, too.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. We'll get into that a little bit more. So one of the things watching this convention, there's a lot in there where they're trying to build voters sort of trust in Harris as a human, as you point out, like just getting people to like her is a big part of this. So how did Doug Emhoff's speech go down there? Because I thought he was excellent. It struck me that two of the best speakers, neither of them were

regular politicians, which if you listen to the voters, if there's one thing voters don't like, it's a regular politician. They often, I think, respond better. But Michelle Obama and I thought Doug Emhoff really stood out. But how did it seem in the arena?

So I think that he humanized her in a way that no other speaker yet in this convention has, which is valuable too, because then it helps them look at someone beyond being a regular politician. You could tell in the arena that people were excited and happy and they love to see like the family side of things because you really didn't see much of that with Trump. Like his sons are in the business.

I think he's only appeared with his wife one or two times in the past year almost. And so people like seeing that. They like seeing the idea of a supportive and involved spouse. And there's an eagerness for that too. Yeah. Can I just add, it seems notable that,

that Doug Emhoff's ex-wife seems to like Kamala Harris more than Donald Trump's current wife likes him. Just a note, I think that when your stepkids like you that much or talk about you as warmly and the ex-spouse of your current spouse all

hold you in high regard, I think that is a signal to people because those relationships can often be very fraught and them sort of showing up. I thought that conveyed something important. Yeah, one more thing that I've seen that

sort of humanizes Harris, which I don't think is apparent right away, but having it repeated can probably really help her, is that I've noticed something of a pattern in a lot of the speakers. Anna Navarro said, oh, when my mother died, Kamala called me in her speech. There have been multiple people over the past couple of days who in their speech mentioned how

Kamala has personally called them either to console them or to congratulate them on some things. And these aren't people like in her California Senate circle or anything like that. They're just people beyond where she's made an effort to reach out on a personal level. That's something that was very advantageous for Trump when he was president. He would see a Republican member of Congress on TV and he would call them and say, good job, or he would say, don't call me that.

One example, he called David Perdue after Perdue called him Winston Churchill, and he was offended because he thought he was saying he looked like Winston Churchill. That's something that happened. But being that personal with other people who you'll ultimately depend on as a leader –

That's really, really valuable. And that's not something that every politician does. That's not something that Ron DeSantis did when he was running for president. And that's why nobody in the Florida delegation really wanted anything to do with him. Yeah, that is a great point. I've also noticed that the way people mention that she's called them

This show is sponsored by Qualia Senolytic. Have you heard about Senolytics yet? It's a class of ingredients discovered less than 10 years ago, and they're being called the biggest discovery of our time for promoting healthy aging and enhancing your physical prime. Your life goals in your career and beyond require productivity, but let's be honest, the aging process is not our friend when it comes to endless energy and productivity.

As we age, everyone accumulates senescent cells in their body. Senescent cells cause symptoms of aging, such as aches and discomfort, slow workout recoveries, sluggish mental and physical energy associated with that middle age feeling.

Also known as zombie cells, they are old and worn out and not serving a useful function in our health anymore, but they are taking up space and nutrients from our healthy cells. Much like pruning the yellowing and dead leaves off a plant, qualia senolytic removes those worn out senescent cells to allow for the rest of them to thrive in the body.

Take it just two days a month. The formula is non-GMO, vegan, gluten-free, and the ingredients are meant to complement one another, factoring in the combined effect of all the ingredients together. Resist aging at the cellular level. Try Qualia Senolytic. Go to qualialife.com backslash the focus group for up to 50% off and use code the focus group at checkout for an additional 15% off.

For your convenience, Qualia Sinalytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. That's qualialife.com slash the focus group for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode.

All right. I want to talk about Tim Walz. Right before I was going on vacation, I did kind of a half Z episode where we just gave people some raw audio of some instant reactions from focus groups about Walz. But now the voters have had a couple of weeks to hear from him. Let's listen to what these Trump to Biden voters had to say about him.

So he's like known as the guy that's pushing for like the common good. So for like everyday people, like somebody mentioned, he was like a teacher and he kind of moved up and that kind of appealed to me too. And he's not a career politician, not like most other politicians, I would say. But I think he had like a good influence in terms of VP pick. Maybe he can sway some of the decisions on Kamala Harris's side, but yeah.

I think he has a more favorable side in terms of using taxpayers' money to benefit the taxpayers. Like, for instance, I think one of his policies that he's known for is like giving out free lunches to every student, right? I'm like, yeah, why not, right? I would definitely pay taxes for that. But apparently he got labeled a socialist for doing something like that. But, you know...

But I think stuff like that is important, right? There's no reason for a kid to go hungry. No, it's not that I don't like him as a person. I feel like in some ways Kamala has been labeled kind of on the socialist side of things. And then for her to pick Walls, who also kind of falls into that same category. I mean, I'm about an hour outside of Minneapolis, St. Paul. And I know people who have moved over to Wisconsin because they don't like the

the policies that Walsh has put into place in some instances. I do think he comes across as a nice guy. I don't love it as a pick, but also like other people have said, I don't pick necessarily really based on the VP.

He started out as a teacher, you know, so I feel like he might be good because he's more like us, like just regular people. And, you know, he got out of teaching and I think he got into Congress or whatever. You know, he's also worked his way up. He's just been the common type of average Joe. And I think maybe that's what this country needs. You know, he's, again, not a career politician. So I like that.

There's no controversy around him. He's not a felon. You know, he doesn't seem like a bully. Likewise, I hadn't heard of him before he got picked. Listening to him or seeing him, he's got a good sense of humor. I'm not sure what his views are. I think he's progressive from what I've read about him.

So you're the Congress guy for the bulwark. What do you think Nancy Pelosi's influence was on the Waltz pick and the anti-Biden whisper campaign on dropping out? She's downplayed it a lot. She's been like, I didn't make a single call

She has incredible influence and power over the party, over understanding that Biden staying in the race would not just doom him, but it would doom their chances of taking back the House. It would doom their chance of keeping the Senate, certainly. And I think that her involvement there was huge. In terms of picking walls...

I'm not really so sure because Walls, he locks up some key voter demographics. Being from Minnesota, he has a very high approval rating with the Muslim population, which is something they were very nervous about. He also checks a lot of the boxes that, like, for example, the people in the focus group were saying, like, he's a nice guy, he's a cool dude.

Vice presidential picks don't really matter at all unless they're bad. And so like, that's why JD Vance is really, really bad. He's like, you know, almost doing a full Palin and is kind of dragging it down. If they're not bad, then they're fine. And I think that if he is able to just be a like normal dude who you don't know much about, but he seems nice and,

For example, the guy who mentioned providing students with free lunches, that's a perfect example of something that like on the right, they painted it as socialist. But in reality, it's something that every parent wants. It's like everybody approves of, everybody likes. And you see in Europe, the right wing political parties, they're just as right wing as they are in the U.S., but they back universal health care. If Republicans here supported things like that, they'd win 50 states.

And their unwillingness to embrace these things that are like really well-liked. The fact that Tim Walz wants free school lunches and that's the policy that's sticking out in their minds.

that's the best thing the Harris campaign could wish for. Because it's not something negative. Yeah, the Republicans have been trying to really drive stories about tampons and boys' bathrooms and things like that. And instead, what seemed to be sticking with these voters, everybody was supportive of the free lunch. I was actually surprised. I guess it's just a question we've never really asked, but it was one of the things that just was really prominent and that everybody supported. And the military service, too, was just another...

thing where Republicans have been trying to muck that up, but people seem generally just to know he was a military guy and that that was good. And so I think you're right. Obviously, I promise it'll be the last time I say it just because, man, do people get mad at me for talking about it. But I was a Shapiro person, but I've been interested in how Waltz will play and will he

code enough center as a football coach, Midwestern white guy. And I think the first blush impressions from folks seems to be kind of backing that up. Like some people are aware that he's more progressive, but more generally, they're just catching, yeah, seems like a fine guy vibe.

Yeah, and a lot of these culture war issues like bathroom policies, those don't break through to the degree that a free school lunch would. And that's why it was more interesting that, you know, everyone mentioned that, oh, he was a teacher. You didn't hear them repeating the attacks about stolen valor. Right. You just heard, oh, I heard he was a teacher. I heard he wanted to do this. And it's like, if you can get that, then you're fine as a VP candidate. Yeah.

You brought up, you brought up Vance. And while Waltz wasn't like batting a thousand with the swing voters, he was definitely doing better than J.D. Vance is. We've heard a lot of sound on Vance from Trump to Biden voters since I taped the show with Ian Ward, which everyone should listen to. If you have not, it was really good. And voters just continue to be totally unsparing when it comes to J.D. Vance. Let's listen.

He's made some pretty offensive comments like the cally comment like no he's very against as someone else mentioned like gay marriage and I feel like the way he says a lot of things are like fairly critical and kind of hateful almost sometimes I don't know I don't feel like he's particularly genuine because he was so against Trump like eight years ago and not that minds can't change but I don't feel like I understand why his did so it kind of makes me wonder if he's just sort of like an opportunist. He is

kind of the exact foil to Walls. I mean, we're looking at two Mountain Dew drinking sort of guys. But then the mixed bag of that is a lot of his very outspoken platforms. He's 100% against gay marriage. The cat lady comment is really referring to his kind of, he strongly supports the

kind of 1960s american family value system which my dad married and two kids like to me that's my dream and i'm super happy and loving it but it's not everyone's dream and i want to be open and respectful to that i also kind of see him

in lockstep with trump on some issues like pulling out of ukraine and the support there and that to me is kind of a big red flag i know i think he's a great guy i think tim wallace is a great guy i don't really care for either one of their political standings i don't really know much about the guy so i'm just going off of rumors but um based on what i read on like reddit and stuff apparently he made love to his couch or whatever and that kind of threw me off i was like all right never mind

Well, a little bit that I that I listened to him. I think he's not good. First, that's something about that. If you don't have children, your vote doesn't count or something. I think he's way out there, really way out there.

I think he's just as dangerous as Trump is. I think he's also a psycho, just like Trump. I think he's like a little mini Trump and the childless women comment. I take offense to that. I don't have cats, but I don't have children. What about childless men? Like, you know, why aren't you labeling them? Again, it's the name calling, the bullying. I would not trust him on anything.

So I saw Hillbilly Elegy. It was before he was...

the candidate at all. And I was interested in that. I thought, oh, that's great. You know, makes his way up and he comes from nothing. And now he's done, you know, well, but now he is the candidate and he's saying very many things differently at this point. And they're pulling film that kind of contradicts. So it seems like to me that they have put him in this position and now he is having to change a lot of what he said in the past.

And regarding his comments on women and this whole cat lady thing, his wife is a very strong, educated woman. So for him to make those comments is so sad to me, especially as the mom of two girls. Man, the cat lady comments are really breaking through. They are coming up a lot. Yeah.

Well, outside of the fake couch story, most of the things they mentioned, like those were the story after story after story in the past several weeks. And it really shows how deep those stories penetrated compared to Walls and even Harris, where they were like, I don't know much about her.

Like, you have to seek those things out. The fact that everyone in the group was keenly aware of very specific stories in the past several weeks, that's just a constant stream of negative stories for Vance. And the fact that everyone in the focus group understood that, I haven't seen that in a long time, where everyone who's, you know, not as engaged in politics just knows every detail of every story about him, and it's all negative. Yeah, I got to tell you...

This is one of those things where every swing voter focus group we've done, even the people and it's been getting fewer and fewer, even the ones who are still like they're probably going to vote for Trump. They all hate Vance. Like nobody has a positive impression of him. I haven't seen anybody perform this badly like ever.

Maybe Mike Pence, the way Republicans talk about Mike Pence was about this vicious. My producer's texting me, Doug Mastriano was worse. That's true. People did hate Doug Mastriano even more. But for people who were Trump's negatives, like the things he says about women, everything had become kind of baked in their old news. J.D. Vance is like re-raising the salience of those things and reminding people of what they don't like about Trump, almost with like a fresh face.

WowVegas.com. Wow.

Win at wowvegas.com, America's best social casino with more than 900 free play games at your fingertips. Winners say wow when they play at wowvegas.com. Experience the real thrills of Vegas at home or on the go. Claim your free coins today at wowvegas.com. Wow Vegas is a social casino. No purchase necessary. Void where prohibited. Play responsibly. Conditions apply. See website for details. Wowvegas.com.

You said in one of your newsletters, which I read religiously and everybody else should too, that his legislative record was pretty much an audition for Trump's VP slot. I think you called it a masterclass in failing up. How have Hill Republicans thought about Vance's performance so far? Are they like rallying around him or do they think he's a bad pick? What do you think? So every interaction I've had with Vance in the Senate, I think you can see it on the campaign trail. So

Even if you ask him a relatively benign question, he responds as if he's being offended. So there's a kind of angry response. There's a few politicians who do that. There's the opposite, too, where, for example, Josh Hawley is very jovial and engaging, even when it's a very tough question. And Hawley and Vance are extremely similar on policy, but they present themselves in a very different way.

So if you see Vance in these press conferences or at these rallies where somebody says, what makes you smile? And his reaction was not my kids, my dog, football. His reaction was like, how dare you ask me a question, you fake news. And it's like that just, it repeats that even when he's saying something positive, it sounds negative. And that rubs people the wrong way. As far as his colleagues in the Senate go,

I think they were going to be fine with anyone he picked. All of them, probably, if you asked them and they answered honestly, probably all would have said Doug Burgum. Doug Burgum was a lot more of a consensus pick among the business community, among elected Republicans, certainly senior elected Republicans. I guess on the positive side, it removes Vance from the Senate, so they get a new colleague, but

It's not been good for him. And you can tell that people wish that the pick had gone the other way. Yeah. So speaking of your newsletter, there was an issue of Press Pass from the convention where you discussed the history of opposing party speakers at conventions like Georgia Democratic Senator Zell Miller appearing at the Republican National Convention in 2004 to endorse George W. Bush on national security grounds. This year, you've got former Trump staffer Stephanie Grisham, former GOP Congressman Adam Kavanaugh,

Kinzinger, friend of the pod and friend of the bulwark. He's a contributor here. And then even some everyday voters who, full disclosure, are featured in my advocacy work at Republican Voters Against Trump. So we're seeing a lot of those voices of sort of regular Republican voters endorsing Harris and talking about why they don't want to vote for Trump. And so I want to just let these Trump-divided voters talk about what they thought of this trend of having more Republican voices at the convention.

I think it's definitely a good strategy. I mean, we've been hearing for years about people that, you know, maybe were associated with Trump and then had something bad to say about him, which really is not shocking. But yeah, I think it's a good strategy to include some of those former voters in the convention against him. I think it's also good for people who may be watching and live in areas that

maybe red-leaning or majority Trump, that there are people out there that live in these areas or traditionally Republican, vote along those party lines and don't feel comfortable with selecting him as a candidate. I think those people may feel isolated in their communities, having those worries when

Traditionally, everyone votes red, but showing that it's okay to want something new and still believe in your values is good. I think we'll win new votes. I think it's a good strategy, but I'd like to know why they jumped the fence to the other side, right?

I can answer that question. Most of them think Donald Trump is unfit to be the president of the United States again because of January 6th. And also they think he is a jerk, which is what you hear from a lot of the Trump to Biden voters. And I want to say at this point, just it's worth noting, but again, focus groups are not polls. Everybody in this group was going to vote for Harris.

And, you know, if you've been listening to the show for a long time, one of the things we've seen a lot of the swing voting groups is some backsliding on Biden. And there were, you know, usually a few voters who had voted for Trump and voted for Biden, and they were going to go back to Trump. And so it's been notable to see, even with their limited knowledge, they seem more comfortable with Harris, even people who were voicing some, you know, reservations or they didn't know, you know, still didn't know that much about her, but...

they were going to vote for. Did that surprise you? A little bit, yeah. But I think that, especially when they were talking about the never Trumpers, the guy who made a point where he was like, oh, you can see people, you see them and it makes you think, oh, it's okay because everyone else around me votes right wing. I think there's a real difference of types of conservatives. There's people who are ideologically conservative and then people who are morally or ethically conservative.

And those people who are more morally conservative are the ones who have been disaffected for the past couple elections. And seeing someone as uninspiring or unable to translate what he's done as president, like Biden, they were looking for someone who's not Joe Biden. Now they've got him.

And it just makes sense that especially if they don't know much about Harris, that they're going to all start moving towards her. That makes a ton of sense. Yeah, I mean, like one of the things I've said to the point of it being probably annoying for people is that when it comes to the double haters, a lot of these swing voters tended to sort of be in that double hater category. They hate Trump, but they didn't really hate Joe Biden. They just thought he was too old to do the job.

And swapping out for Harris, I think, makes this a much more palatable choice for them. And you're absolutely right that there are different kinds of swing voters. But for the ones that are persuadable, building the permission structure from these other center-right folks like Kinzinger, like Liz Cheney, but also, and I think very importantly, just average voters like themselves who have been Republicans in some way,

because there are people who are tribally Republican, and then there are people who are just right-leaning, and maybe they don't love Democrats, but like,

They really hate Trump and they just needed somebody that they felt like they could be like, OK, this is good enough, which is really what Biden was for a lot of these voters in 2020. They were like, he seems fine and I'm sick of Trump. And I think Harris, I think, could go from both like she's fine. She seems like an adult. So, OK, to even starting to get people to be like, I feel maybe good about this.

I wanted to ask you, though, your newsletter was replete with Democrats praising the tactic of having the Republicans speak at convention. But do you know, did you catch any resistance to that? Are there people who are like, why are these Republicans getting stage time? No, didn't see any of that. And something that I read about in today's

was there's so many different factions. And you could see, for example, a closing of the chapter of the Hillary-Bernie feud. The fact that Bernie opened up for a billionaire and then a big former bank CEO. The fact that everyone's on board and happy together shows that there was a real desire to hear from other speakers or to just not mind if people who are different from them. It would have been very different if...

Stephanie Grisham got up, listed off all these Republican policies she likes, and then at the end said, oh, but I'm still voting for Harris. That probably would have bothered people. But that's not been the theme. Most of the theme has been, I found this behavior incompetent, and I've seen it replicated and rippled throughout the party. And so everyone seems totally fine with it. And it was surprising too, like James Clyburn was really excited about the idea of

bringing Republicans in. And it was like, James Clyburn has fought House Republicans who are probably the most Republican Republicans for decades. And so the idea that everyone is just kind of on board and like, wants the tent to be bigger. That's a real shift from many years past.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Joe, first of all, I want to thank you for being here, but I also want to tell you the listeners, okay, Joe's Press Pass newsletter is a must read for political junkies and also menswear aficionados. That's not really for me, but I think it's funny how much you include about that and informative. Bulwark Plus members get unlimited access, so make sure to sign up today if you haven't already.

Joe Pertico, thank you so much for joining us. And thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the Focus Group podcast. Remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and subscribe to the board on YouTube. We will be back next week.

Win at wowvegas.com, America's best social casino with more than 900 free play games at your fingertips. Winners say wow when they play at wowvegas.com. Experience the real thrills of Vegas at home or on the go. Claim your free coins today at wowvegas.com. Wow Vegas is a social casino. No purchase necessary. Void where prohibited. Play responsibly. Conditions apply. See website for details. Wowvegas.com. Win at wowvegas.com.

Ever wonder what makes pandas so special? Join us on Amazing Wildlife to find out. Giant pandas and their habitat are unique and beautiful and extraordinary representation of the natural world. And if you get that opportunity to sit and watch a panda eat bamboo, you will be mesmerized.

Listen to Amazing Wildlife on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Amazing Wildlife and start listening. If you're listening to this right now, stop what you're doing. This is a sign from God himself to go listen to the Normal Show podcast. I'm the host of said podcast. What's up? Tyler, that's my name. I'm the host. Normal Show podcast.

Episodes come out every Wednesday. We do a lot of wacky and fun stuff over there. Go check it out. What are you doing? What are you doing right now? Go check it out. You got some time.