'The Interview': Demi Moore Is Done With the Male Gaze
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Discover where energy meets humanity at ovengrid.com. From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. It is hard to describe Demi Moore's new movie, The Substance. On the one hand, it's a dark comedy about the horrors of getting older as a woman in Hollywood. But it's also a literal body horror film.

The basic premise is that Moore's character takes this strange elixir that allows her to create a younger, more perfect version of herself. And you can see that creation in bloody, visceral detail. It's a movie that challenges us to look at what drives our celebrity-obsessed culture and the damage it does to our female stars. Moore is already getting awards buzz for it.

And even though, I'll confess, I was kind of grossed out watching it, I also couldn't look away. I've been mesmerized by Demi Moore my whole life. One of her first big films, St. Elmo's Fire in 1985, made me want to go to where it was partially set, Georgetown University, which I eventually did. Ghost, with that famous scene of her making pottery with Patrick Swayze, made me want to live in a New York loft. That, alas, never happened.

Her later films, like A Few Good Men, G.I. Jane, and Decent Proposal, were basically the metronome of my younger life. Along the way, I grew to admire her chutzpah as she became the highest-paid actress in Hollywood, as well as an early advocate of pay equity more broadly, long before the issue was part of the national discourse.

And after a stint away from Hollywood, in 2019, she penned a smart and revealing memoir about her tumultuous childhood, her iconic roles, and her high-profile marriages to both Bruce Willis and Ashton Kutcher.

Moore is now in her 60s, and she tells me she's finally grown comfortable in her own skin and is upending expectations about what it means to be an aging woman in the industry that both embraced and judged her her whole career. Here's my conversation with Demi Moore. ♪

I see we have a special guest. Yes, we do. Pilaf the little mouse. Pilaf the little mouse. And just because people won't be able to see you, you have Pilaf in a sling? Yes. Generally, she likes to be close up to the heart. Right. That's her job. She regulates the heart. I'm a dog person, so I'm just like, we're just going to have her be here, and I'm very excited about that. All right. Let's talk about the new movie. Okay. I haven't stopped thinking about it since I saw it.

You play Elizabeth Sparkle, which is a fantastic name. She's an aging actress turned celebrity fitness instructor. Why did you sign on to star in a movie about a woman who's aging in Hollywood and at war with her own body? Because obviously it felt very meta watching you do this. Well, first of all, let me say on one hand, why it was easy for me to step in and do this is because I don't feel I am her.

you know, this is a woman who has no family. She's dedicated her entire life to her career. And when that's taken, what does she have? And so I feel like in a way I had enough separation from her and at the same time, a deep internal connection to the pain that she was experiencing, the rejection that she felt. And I mean, I knew it would be challenging, but

potentially really important, important exploration on the issue. Tell me what you sort of understand the issue to be because there's so much in this film. Well, I think when I really look at it, for me, what...

was the most powerful is that it's not about what's being done to us. It's what we do to ourselves. It's the violence that we have against ourselves, the lack of love and self-acceptance. And that, you know, within the story, we have this male perspective of the idealized woman that I feel like we as women have bought into.

I mean, the movie starts with your character sitting down with a male executive and being told when you turn 50, it's over. Is that something that you heard a lot working in Hollywood? I feel like it's less overt. It's less overt and a little bit more of the unspoken perception.

that your desirability, and I think there's a line in the film that, you know, says this, that like your desirability as a woman is done with your fertility, which for me, it's again, it's a perception that's been bought into, but it doesn't make it the truth. You know, I was watching you and there's a real vulnerability to your role, which is you're naked in a lot of the film. And I was thinking about that.

What it meant for you to be so exposed now in your 60s as opposed to your 20s, because you have this duality here, right? You're playing with Margaret Qualley, who is, you know, supposed to be the younger version of you.

And I was wondering, are you more comfortable, less comfortable? I mean, you know, going into this, I knew, like, this is not about me looking great. And in fact, you know, it was, on one hand, to be honest, there was a certain liberation in the role that wasn't having to be perfect. And it's not that there aren't shots in it, like, where I go, oh, my ass looks awful. Yeah.

But I'm also okay with it. I'm in acceptance of it. And I think part of what was interesting is that Elizabeth is being rejected and it's not that I look that bad. You look unbelievably fantastic. But it's not like... But you can see that you're not 20. Exactly. But I mean, look, I certainly went through...

very thoughtful consideration about all of it. Going in, you know, knowing not only that, knowing that there were going to be shots and angles and things done to actually accentuate not looking good. But I think that there was great beauty in that. You know, I've struggled with letting my vulnerability be seen in my personal life, even though I know that

Our greatest power is our vulnerability. And yet I fight against it all the time. You know, I watched you in that scene where you're standing fully naked and you have a close-up of your backside and all of it. And I thought, that's incredibly brave. And then I thought, I'm not happy that I feel that that is brave. That's an interesting thought. Yeah.

I think that the idea that it related to being brave is because we all know that we age. And so it's not as plump and robust and tight. You know, it's not, it's those things that

are parts of the body that we don't necessarily always want everybody to see when it's not what it used to be. And they make it a really big feature of the film. I mean, you get all the close-ups of Margaret's body and I don't know how old she is. 20-something. 20-something, yeah. And she looks it. And so you're seeing it in comparison. What were you thinking when you saw that, that comparison? What's interesting is, you know, like, I mean...

It goes back again to that male perspective of the idealized woman. The one that's being rejected because the ass isn't as plump and as high and as tight. And, you know, this other that's being celebrated. And, you know, I guess, you know, in looking at it outside of the first knee jerk of like, oh, like I didn't love my butt. It was really more for me.

Like I felt more proud of the power between showing the two, the vulnerable part and the part that has yet to experience. Like she's like newly born. She doesn't know yet what life is. So the question is, would you trade your wisdom for?

For a tight ass. And where do you land on that question? I would like to not have to choose. And I think part of, for me, the liberation of doing this film was in a way of realizing that I'm here to define who I am at almost 62. And I don't need to play by any rules that have existed up until now.

And I don't know what that is because I haven't been here before. You know, it's like the idea I remember long, long, long ago somewhere, like, you know, hearing and passing, that at a certain age you shouldn't have long hair. And I think unconsciously there was a part of me that didn't buy into that, that said, well, who made that rule? And so somehow after I had shaved my head for G.I. Jane, I just started to let my hair grow again.

I don't know if it's a part of me that's a bit rebellious or that's also just trying to challenge the question. Just because that's how it's been, that doesn't mean that's how it has to be. Do you think all women should shave their heads at some point? Well, I would say that there is a very powerful experience with shaving your head, and I probably never felt more naked than when my head was shaved.

It was quite life-changing, in fact, because not only did I, you know, I realized, like, we as women, when we have our, we kind of move through the world, we go like this. Whereas men move very direct and very forward without apology. You're moving your hand like undulating. Yeah, like we move side to side kind of, you know, and when I didn't have that, I sat in myself in a very different way. I feel like I took and had a strength in,

And you see the length of my hair. It's not how I wanted to, you know, go forward with having a shaved head. But it was very empowering. You sound like you've gotten to some degree of acceptance about where you are in your life. And after struggling with self-image for such a long time, after struggling with

you know, being in the public eye and being judged. And I do want to ask you about, though, what you think about discussing this stuff openly. Is it better to talk about it and normalize it, or is it better to keep it private and say, it's none of your business what I do? I don't know. This is a kind of a tough question. I

I've lived a life that's both been extremely private and public. And it's been, I've had a huge learning curve with that. You know, I had talk about feeling unsafe, like that to the point where I felt like my life had become almost agoraphobic and I never wanted to leave my house. And so there is, you know, I don't know if there's any one right way, but

But I think it really is about the individual. I mean, your book is an incredibly open memoir. I mean, it is one of the best celebrity memoirs I've read. Oh, gosh, thank you. And it's also very revealing in a way that is at times shocking in someone as well-known as you are and clearly deeply emotional. It came out five years ago.

I'm wondering what it feels like now that it's been out in the world for a while to have revealed so much of yourself. I was very thoughtful about what I shared because there's a lot more life that's lived than is in the book. And I think for me, the personal catharsis was in really exploring the essential question that I had, which is how did I get here?

Like, how did I get here? Like, coming from where I came from on paper, like, the life that I've lived. Like, it was— Growing up poor with an extremely dysfunctional and stable household. Yeah, no education, no guidance, no safety net, like, on my own at 16. And to really, like, the places I've been, the people I've met, the opportunities of things I've experienced. And it was like, how did I get here? Wow. Yeah.

And then the other part, obviously, is I start the book with my life really like having exploded. And so then the question was like, how the fuck did I get here?

And so looking at the parallel of those two things allowed me also to be able to really see the gifts within all of the challenges that occurred. And in fact, it gave me a deep compassion for my mother because I thought if I can't find compassion for my mother, an innocent being who came into the world just as we all do,

How can I expect my children to have compassion for me, for my failings? That very difficult relationship with your mother, who was an alcoholic and... Bipolar, yes. And this very difficult upbringing that you had, it did send you on this journey of trying to control your body in different ways, through disordered eating, through excessive exercise, through drugs and alcohol. You became sober, we should say, in your 20s. Yes.

When you were starting out in the industry, it must have been pretty common to have those issues. Do you remember talking to other young actresses about that stuff or was it kept kind of private? I don't know if I ever had. I mean, I can't think of anything specific. I mean, I think there was a general kind of sense about it.

you know, certain expectations. But I mean, I look in particular coming out of the 80s and the 90s where there was, I think, a greater pressure for perfection.

that kind of existed. If you look at any advertising, everything was very clean and perfect. And there wasn't any body inclusivity. There wasn't, you know, there was a more extreme standard of beauty that existed, you know. And I did, as I wrote in the book, personally experience being told to lose weight on quite a few films before I ever even had my children.

And again, those were humiliating experiences, but the true violence was what I was doing to myself. The way in which I tortured myself, did extreme crazy exercise, weighed and measured my food, because I was putting all of my value of who I was into how my body was, how it looked, what

And again, giving other people's opinion more power than myself. When did you realize that that was having such an enormous effect on you? That the outside gaze, not only just of men, but of everybody, was really damaging your own sense of like who you were? I think after I finished G.I. Jane is when I had a huge shift.

Because I think I had manipulated my body. I had changed it over multiple times through just pure force and discipline. And when I finished that film, I think I was so kind of worn down in this battle that I had been in that I finally surrendered. And...

I feel like I just started to ask to be my natural size because I didn't know what it was. I literally couldn't go in a gym. I couldn't, like, control food in that way. And I really, like, experienced the gift of surrender. Not giving up, but surrendering this idea that I was actually in control. And I moved into...

Probably like what I would say was almost like a spiritual awakening of really knowing what it is when you accept yourself exactly in that moment, even if you don't like it. Was part of that to do with the fact that you had transformed yourself so much for that role and it had been not well received and you were getting a lot of criticism? It was coming off of the back of striptease as well.

that it just turned off that spigot that you just were like, I'm not going to listen to this anymore? I mean, even before any of that happened, I think that I truly was physically worn down. I mean, I finished that film with a shaved head and I was 138 pounds. And for me, that's a lot. And I felt like I didn't

Like, I felt like this, it's not that I was a different person, but I didn't know who, like, it was just this thing where, and, you know, I think on a personal level,

You know, I finished that. And then not too long after I finished, my mother was dying. My relationship was starting to kind of disintegrate. And so I think I had, I think it was all just mounting. It was like I needed all of that happening at once, actually, to get me to the point of surrendering and letting go. I mean, you were someone who, and especially at this point, you were one of the most powerful

famous women in the world, a lot of interest in your personal life, and just this sense that you were being too well-paid, you were too powerful, you were too much. Well, I think I can look back. And on one hand, with Striptease, it was as if I had betrayed women. And with G.I. Jane, it was as if I had betrayed men. But I think the interesting piece in that

is that when I became the highest paid actress, there was something, if you really look at collectively, why is it that at that moment, the choice was to bring me down? And again, I don't take this personal. I think whoever it had been, this may have happened to. But because I did a film that was dealing with the world of stripping,

And the body, I was extremely shamed. And I think anyone who had been in the position that was the first to get, you know, that kind of equality of pay would probably have taken a hit.

At that moment, your husband, Bruce, was getting paid a huge amount of money for doing films. Did you compare yourself to him? Did you talk about it with him? Did he understand that you asking for equal pay was fair? I mean, because you were married to a fellow actor, so... I mean, I never really spoke about it because, again, for me, it wasn't...

I wasn't in competition with anybody else. It was about my own competition with myself to see what's the best that I can do. You didn't understand that it had significance for all female actors? Oh, 100%. I knew that a new baseline being set, that for me was the greatest gift of all of it.

But inside myself, it wasn't about comparing myself to him. I had, like, yes, I saw what they got paid. It was really more about just, like, why shouldn't I? If I'm doing the same amount of work, why shouldn't I? And, you know, it's no different than when I did the cover for Vanity Fair pregnant. Like, I didn't understand why...

It was such a big deal to, you know, why women when they were pregnant needed to be hidden. Like, why is it that we have to deny that we had sex? That's the fear, right? Is that if you show your belly, that means, oh, my gosh, you've had sex. This is, of course, the Vanity Fair cover shot by Annie Leibovitz that broke the Internet before there was the Internet. Right.

Of you, naked and pregnant. And this is the thing. There are these moments throughout your life and your career where your physical self has been at such the forefront of culture and has been really pushing the boundaries all along.

And you yourself were feeling terrible about yourself. I think that's one of the misconceptions is that when I did things like this idea that, oh, I love my body so much versus what the truth was, is that these things were coming along. Obviously, I was choosing them, but I think that it was all in service to helping me try to overcome my issues, my self-loathing, my feeling of not being enough.

And to help build my confidence, actually not because I was confident. It's kind of like a fake it till you make it approach. Oh, that is my primary university. That's funny. I'm wondering what you make of this moment now where everything is being reassessed and

You know, we look back at how women were treated in the 90s and the 80s. And I'm wondering what your thoughts have been on watching the culture shift. I'm excited to see the shift. I mean, it's like, what can I say? I think it's a natural progression of women stepping in and taking their place.

That's it. We're not, I mean, I look at my daughters and there's, you know, there are things they would never question that, you know, about what they can and can't do in ways that, you know, were perhaps limitations that existed in my time at their same ages. Sorry, Mouse. I was talking really big with my hands and I interrupted Pilaf's sleep. Sorry. Yeah.

Does that make sense, by the way, what I was just saying? It does. It does. I also am wondering with the cultural shift, isn't it just like you're pissed off? Like you had to go through all that and now the culture's finally caught up with you? No, because why would I waste my energy being pissed off?

I remember sitting down with my team and saying, you know, I had done G.I. Jane. Like, I really wanted like kind of like an action kind of film. I felt like that was like something that, you know, I would really love to explore and kind of being looked at with these polite faces. But like, you're crazy. Yeah.

And I can look and see, well, since that time, actresses of like that next generation down where that started to open up. And I don't need to be pissed off. I can feel disappointed that like that that didn't happen for me. But I feel equally in like celebration that thank God it is. Thank God it is.

I don't want to end without asking you how Bruce Willis is doing. Obviously, there's a lot of interest and concern. Of course.

I think, you know, I think given the givens where he's at is in a beautiful, stable place. And, you know, you really just have to take it one day at a time. I'm so grateful that our collective families are so close and, you know, that we spend time together, that we are in such support and love.

It's not something, you know, I would wish on anyone. But as I've said before, one of the most important things is that you really meet them where they're at and you let go of any attachment to what they were or what you would want. And you really take the joy of all of the moments you have with where they are, which is so sweet and loving.

After the break, I called Demi back and asked her about getting sober for the first time when she was 21 and what it's been like for her to experience the world as a sober person now. I can go into a room, a gathering, and if I'm uncomfortable, I don't need to try to take the edge off it. I can actually just go, oh, wow, isn't that interesting? I'm a little uncomfortable right now. ♪

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Hey, I'm Tracy Mumford. You can join me every weekday morning for the headlines from The New York Times. Now we're about to see a spectacle that we've never seen before. It's a show that catches you up on the biggest news stories of the day. I'm here in West Square. We'll put you on the ground where news is unfolding. I just got back from a trip out to the front line and every soldier... And bring you the analysis and expertise you can only get from The Times newsroom. I just can't emphasize enough how extraordinary this moment is.

Look for The Headlines wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Lulu. Hi. How are you? I'm good. So I came away from our first conversation thinking about how in all these different ways you were ahead of the culture. You know, you were an early champion of pay equity. You were an early champion of sex positivity. And the other thing we didn't really talk about is sobriety.

And I'm someone who has been a year and a half sober myself. Congratulations. And I was wondering if you'd talk about your sobriety journey, if you feel comfortable with that. Yeah, within certain reason. It's, you know, I feel like...

I'm so grateful to be sober. The majority of my adult life, I've been sober and it's so much more natural to me. And, you know, I really fit a profile of it being genetic. It's in my family. And as challenging as the moments that were low, I have to say, I wouldn't

I wouldn't exchange that for the quality of the life I have, most importantly, because it's given me emotional sobriety. Oh, explain what you mean by that. Well, I mean, I think everyone understands the idea of being sober from drugs, alcohol, sex, shopping, those kind of externalized things. But

Like what it is to be emotionally sober means how I'm choosing to live my life, the quality of how I interact with people, my ability to show up and suit up for others. That's all within my emotional sobriety because all the things that are used to medicate, and it's not just drugs and alcohol, there's many things, food. I mean, you know, and yeah,

When you no longer have that knee jerk to numb yourself out. Yes, life can be a little edgy, but I actually, now I know I can go into a room, a gathering, and if I'm uncomfortable, I don't need to try to take the edge off it. I can actually just go, oh, wow, isn't that interesting? I'm a little uncomfortable right now. Not reacting to the things. Yeah, I mean, I think what I know now is when...

You're numbing yourself out. Your discernment for things isn't the same. So I know if I'm at a party, let's say, I know when to leave because I'm not going to be on the same level anymore with other people. And I'm okay with that. Like I recognize I have two speeds, go and go faster. And so, you know, like drugs and alcohol just aren't a right fit for me.

You know, reading about how you became sober, which was during St. Elmo's fire and the director basically having an intervention and saying, you have to go do this. Lots of people who've struggled with addiction have had those moments, but you kind of stuck with it. And I'm wondering, looking back now, why you think that was? Well, I think at that time,

I remember being sent to this place and they wanted to check me in for treatment and me saying, well, I can't because I'm going to start a film. And they said, what's more important to you, the film or your life? And I said, the film.

Because that was my only sense of self and value. And so the incredible gift, like I really feel like it was divine intervention, is that by them sticking their neck out for me to stay in the film under the circumstances gave me something more than me to want to...

And in a certain way, it was my fear. It was my fear of losing this thing that I was pursuing that really meant everything at that moment. I didn't have enough of myself to do it for me.

And I think it really kept me sober. But I want to just clarify, just so that I'm being transparent, I did step out. I did a detour. And I had almost 20 years of sobriety. I had a detour. And now I have over 12 years. And the detour, I think I was really young when I got sober. I was not yet 22.

And I think, you know, as much as there's one part that says, boy, it would have been nice not to have to open that door, but it solidified without any question for me which path I wanted to take. Was it hard to get sober again? I think when you have that much time and you open the door, it's

It's difficult because there's a part of you that feels like you knew better. And so that you want to prove that you can manage it. And managing it is just not in my makeup. It's not in my chemical response to alcohol. But I sure gave it a hell of a shot. Yeah.

Okay, a few more questions and then I will let you go. There have been reports of a St. Elmo's fire reboot. True or not? There are some discussions, yes. It's kind of early, early stages, but from my understanding, I think pretty much everyone from the original cast is in or at least open and interested.

which I think, you know, it would be, it would be really fun. There was something, you know, such, it was such an important time for us as young actors. And when Andrew McCarthy just did the documentary, I was just in New York and went to the screening and sat on a panel. Ally Sheedy was there. And I realized I hadn't seen her probably in, I don't know,

Almost 30 years. And that was crazy. But yet I can't like the feeling I had when I saw her. I was it just like I felt my heart expand in that way because I think we were all just so young and it was kind of exciting. And this this like shift that was occurring, you know, in our industry of films being made about women.

Things that were happening in our lives. It just was just it. I don't know. So I think it would be really it would be fun. You know, something that stuck with me is that you said in our first conversation that there was a period in your life when you became almost agoraphobic and didn't want to leave your house because of the burdens of fame.

You know, at this point, you've been famous for decades. And I'm wondering what your relationship to fame is now. Well, it's interesting. I'll give you an example. I think that the time that I was talking about was feeling like how I was feeling.

experiencing and holding, like with being out on the street and paparazzi popping up. And I felt that I was in a battle with them and my privacy was being invaded and I felt unsafe. And what I realized is, you know, our bodies don't know the difference between

Between a gun and a camera, all we know is we're being like we're being gone after. And so I didn't know I hadn't really processed how to regulate that feeling of somebody trying to take from me. Somebody was like, in a sense, attacking me. And I feel like now my relationship with it is I I experience it with ease and grace.

Like yesterday, my daughter Scout and I were going to a friend's surprise birthday and we were walking from the car where we parked and out of nowhere, two guys popped up. And the difference is now.

I don't hold it as that they're taking anything from me, that I am under siege. And that doesn't mean I always like it. Like, did I like that they popped out of nowhere? But, you know, it's I just I don't. And so I don't know. That's the only part I can think of of fame, because I guess in general, I don't think about it very much, actually. Yeah.

Thank you so much. I've really, really enjoyed this. Thank you for being so open. Oh, my pleasure. And really, well done. Bravo for the year. That's amazing. Thank you. That's Demi Moore. The Substance opens in theaters nationwide on September 20th.

This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baetube, and Marian Lozano. Photography by Devin Yelkin. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orme. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Nick Pittman, Jeffrey Miranda, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick.

If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com.

Next week, David talks with Sally Rooney about her new book Intermezzo and how she's thinking about her career after her early and meteoric successes. I don't feel myself thinking about my growth as an artist, if you will. I'm skeptical that you don't think about that. Yeah, no, I think it's fair to be skeptical. And I think that...

There is a huge cultural fixation with novelty and growth, you know, reinvention. And I don't find that very interesting. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times. ♪