The Grievance Edition: with Lewis Black and Ronny Chieng | Behind the Show
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We are joined by the longest running daily show contributor of all time, the one and only great Louis Black. Yay. Yay. The crowd goes wild. The crowd goes wild. They are. They're listening and they're clapping in the subway in the cars right now. So good to see you, Louis. It's great to see you. Yeah. Thanks for joining me. I just get into it. I mean-

You, by your own words, are older than shit. And you've been here a long time. You've been here since before Jon Stewart. Yeah. I want to ask you about you seeing the show change specifically...

not just the show itself, but like its place in pop culture. Yeah. But they brought on other people and sullied my work. You know, I mean, that was it for starters. It was kind of like, really? There are going to be other folks here? So the airing of grievances begins on the year's edition. Yeah, so you've been here, like I read to prepare for this. I actually read the oral history.

of a daily show, which you're featured in. Yes. I would say not featured enough in. Thank you. But I always find that style of storytelling, anecdotal storytelling, very interesting by people who are there. And sometimes they contradict each other. And then I found out things I didn't know. That's the other thing. I went, really? Yeah, yeah. But it started, I mean, it was literally...

Liz Winstead knew me. I was working in clubs and it was one of those things where- Clubs in New York City. In New York City. And people were going, "God, I can't believe you don't have an agent. Really, can't you find an agent? Can't you do this?" But meanwhile, Liz Winstead knew me and a guy named Hank Gallo who wrote initially for the Daily News, I think it was, and wrote about comedy way back when. And he became a producer on the show and they both approached me because

I was sitting around and I had tons of material and nobody had heard it. And I hadn't done any specials. I'd done really just maybe, I'd done a couple of, you know, shows. I don't even know if I'd done an evening at the Improv at that point. So at that point, how many years into stand-up were you? I'd been doing stand-up on and off, but I was really kind of committed to stand-up at that point for about five, six years. Five, six years into comedy for a time. Where I kind of went from being a,

a playwright to putting myself full-time into doing stand-up. Sure. So they said, do you want to do this? I said, great. Just to give people a sense, do you mind me asking what year this was, roughly? The year was 96, 97. Okay. I think. I remember that year. Yeah. I remember that. Chicago Bulls. Yeah. Wow. That was like the 40th year that the Wizards, my team, was in the dumps. Still called the Bullets at that point.

Yes, I had a real name as opposed to that idiotic wizard stupid fuck thing. And they saw you around the traps, presumably. Liz and... Yeah, I mean, Liz and I knew each other pretty well. And she had this idea. And the great breakthrough was that it's a show that I think I had tried to sell a show like it.

you know, how are we going to sell this kind of show? She sold it, which is huge at the time. And because I was hearing things like, I couldn't be on Letterman because the guy who was the producer said, you know, politics aren't funny. Right, right.

And so the grievances continue, though, on this grievance edition. Yeah, so you were kind of doing, at that time, you were doing contemporary, political, maybe like, what's it called, like very topical stuff. I was doing topical stuff, and I was doing also other things, like about Valentine's Day and about...

You know, the holidays and the general stuff that a comic would do and pick up on and, you know, the candy corn stuff and all that. So they basically bring me on. There's no audience. We're at, what was it at the time, PBS Studios in New York City. And they just sat me at a desk and they had a background of people walking around as if I was in some sort of a newsroom. And they just...

And I came in and improv'd. Oh, a segment or the whole show? No, just the segment. At that time, Kilbourne was in charge, Craig. And he was, I mean, he had the desk. And so I would come in, it was once every two weeks, and I would improv stuff. And they saw, what they saw in you for the show, was it, because I know you as this prolific actor.

commentator, very topical. That's the kind of thing which most comics back then probably would not. Most comics would probably be a bit less prolific and maybe a bit less topical because you want to do stuff that's evergreen. And so do you think that's what

attracted them to you for the show? And also, I had all this material. Nobody knew me. I had all this kind of material that nobody had ever heard. Well, then how did they know about that? Because they both had seen me in clubs. Oh, okay. Liz was a comedian. Okay, okay. So she had seen me a ton and we'd done, you know, done all the stuff you do together as comics. Let's do a benefit for leukemia. Okay, I'll see you there. Right. And Hank had seen me a ton. Sure. And, uh,

So they knew that I had them, you know, and it was really like, okay, we're going to do this and we don't know how long we'll be on. Do you want to try this? Yes. And nobody knew what it would be like. And I did it. And then I would do my bit. I mean, you're great at this too. You're great at improv, Ronnie. I mean, you are. I'm speechless. It's true. And then you come on and do it. And then they'd come up and they'd go, keep this, do that. That was wrong.

I need this. And let's try it again. And then I would do it again. Oh, that's how they did it in the day. No teleprompter. No, nothing. Right. Just go with it. Like, let's keep what we liked. Yeah. And then let's keep doing a few iterations. And now let's do it again and let's do it again. I'd do it like three or four times. By the fourth time, I'd have it. Right. Then they brought in an audience about like three months into it maybe. Okay. Then we went on to the teleprompter. Right. So then I would sit down and write it. Yeah. Write it with Hank. Uh-huh.

Just the two of you? Just the two of us. I'd write it, give it to Hank. Hank would help edit it. Liz would edit it. And then I'd go on and put it in the teleprompter. I'd read it. There was an audience. It becomes a different kind of a thing completely. You're playing off the crowd. You're playing off the crowd, surfing the crowd. Yeah. And it was probably a smaller audience than we had now. Right. And then...

And I kept doing that. Right. And that blossomed into Back in Black when I did the thing that I will advise against. I got really drunk at a Christmas party we had. Uh-huh.

few years into it and I said, you know, it'd be really great if I could what I'd like to do is to do Is to do you know news clips and stuff like that instead of just kind of doing this? Just doing my editorials could we put it in in relationship to the news? Right and they took it they had at that point access to

and didn't have to pay for all sorts of clips. So I didn't get those clips. I didn't get the news clips. I got, you know, squirrels on water skis. Oh, right, right, right, right. That's the stuff I got. And I was like, son of a bitch. And we're going to call it Back in Black Fine. That's great. So you wanted something meatier, more...

dare I say, relevant politically, but they kept giving you the kind of like back pages. They had a ton of this stuff. And, I mean, for me, great because it was on... I was on every two weeks. Right, right. Regular. It was still great in the sense, I'm not looking at, you know, the veritable gift horse. Yes, yes. But, I mean, I'm going...

Okay, and I had Hank was in there, who's my producer, and a writer, gifted writer, really good at punchlines. Yes. A couple of the other, like now, the guys who work with me, the writers, they would come in and we'd look at this stuff and then we'd put it together. We would all collect the stuff, then I would go ahead and write stuff, then they would write...

their stuff and we combine it all together and I do that. And that's what evolved into where we are now. Right. But it was kind of you pursuing something with more teeth.

You were like, I want to say something a bit more teeth, but they kind of saw you as like the maybe the Andy Rooney segment on the show kind of like the comic relief on a comic show, which is kind of. And also, yeah. And they were, you know, it was another way to get at it. And then also when when John comes in. Yeah. So what he starts to do is create an arc with each show. Yes. So then at this point, we're going to use this. This is when we're going to use Lewis.

And so all of a sudden they began to pick in shoes. I ended up doing less shows, but it was still fine because now because of doing the show, my, as you've noticed, you know, all of a sudden my stock rises. So now I'm touring around the country. I become, because of the Daily Show, and now I'm getting specials on Comedy Central. Now I'm the face of Comedy Central along with Dave Attell. Right.

Then we go on tour with Mitch Hedberg and Dave and I. And then, boom, now I'm just touring. Amazing. Yeah. And so you, I guess it's fair to say, The Daily Show did break you in. Obviously working hard. Yeah. And it and Conan. Conan. I did a ton of Conans at the time, too. It broke and then Conan and...

And also the specials I did. Right. Because also there again, now I'm working nights like you do at clubs. Yes. And...

putting together these half-hour specials. Yeah, and then you got HBO specials after that. Yeah. And, yeah, I guess it was taking off. You kind of skipped a few steps there because, you know, you said, like, when you first joined the show with Craig Kilbourne, it was like you didn't even know if the show was going to last. No. And then just before John joins, there's a gap where Craig Kilbourne and the show actually did grow, and it became more professional, had more resources, right? Yeah, yeah.

And then when John joined you, you were quoted in the book, Daily Show book, that you said, like, it made sense to you why they hired him. You could see that. And then you were like, well, they should have auditioned me. There's always agreement. Yeah, there's agreement. Did you know, like, when he took over, you were like, okay, this is going to be better now? Well, I knew it would be better. I didn't know it would explode. Okay. But it also...

The thing that you can't really teach anyone, and you've been through it, anybody who's experienced it,

Breaks in their career. It's time and place and a lot of it has to do with timing. Yes, and so John walks in at the point where There's an explosion of cable. Yeah, so now Literally, and I see it as I'm performing around the United States people. How do you perform a Biloxi? Well, here's how because they see the same things as we see everywhere that

also had a huge effect on The Daily Show in the way in which people could see it. And because now they have an understanding, much like they do with hacks and a whole bunch of other kind of professions that they know behind the scenes. And so now they kind of have a sense of what news is about. They now have a character. They have context for what we're making fun of. Right. Yeah. And then John was able to coalesce in it.

He had a really great eye for talent. He sought it and brought that in and executed it. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Texting between two different kinds of phones makes photos blurry, likes messy, and security risky. Not just that, it also makes sharing photos or even simply video calling, editing messages, or leaving a group nearly impossible.

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We're back with Louis Black. So at that point when John joined and it was kind of, you know, things were really kicking off, I mean, much like the Bulls, I guess, like 95 Bulls. Every time you came back, did you feel like it was growing bigger and bigger and you're like, oh, this cultural phenomenon and the production? It took a while, but I mean, you could feel it. You literally, you could feel it coming. It was kind of one of those things that you felt...

You could see the wave in the distance and you went, well, and then all of a sudden, bam. Right, right. And I think it was a perfect mix of, at that time, there wasn't, you know, a ton of content that is diluting the pool. There's only so many shows and this was the only show, and you, don't let me put words in your mouth, but for me, I felt it was that,

the beauty about comedy when it's done great, it's always this kind of like underground, it's like counter-cultural, it's cool. You guys were like the cool kids making fun of the institutions and you were, and the fact that it was on cable made it a little bit hard to watch, which made it even more desirable. Yeah. You know, all these facts. Tucked away. And I mean, you know, you had, and you also had other things that kind of helped set it up. Like, uh,

You know, I don't think he gets the doesn't get that the amount of credit does but David tells insomnia was this kind of night You know there was a certain you just nailed really that whole thing about it and there were other building blocks around it in terms of Comedy Central they're also the what made it great I think and it's something I scream about a lot and

And I don't think they give the credit is the the level of writing on this show was unbelievable and I still to this day think that What would creates the quality on this is one of it was initially the the writers? Yes, John and the writers. Yes brought that whole thing up. Yes and

And now what really does it is, I mean, we had a killer lineup then. We had a killer lineup. Now you had Carell and Colbert. So it was a strong group that also had a bent in terms of writing. And we've got that now again, and it makes a big difference. Oh, no, thanks so much. I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the Bulls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess if you could talk a little bit about, like, the—

the way the show has changed culturally because it started off as a normal talk show, kind of like news clips with jokes. And I kind of call it like America's Funniest Home Videos with jokes. And that's...

That's the basic version of the show to me. That will get everyone paid. But to make the show great, it started to have a point of view. And the point of view at that time was kind of figured out commenting on the cable news environment. Yeah, it was satirizing news. And it was also, the take was...

any authority. And that was huge. Because there was nothing really like that. There was nothing doing it. There's still nothing like that doing it. It's still the only show that I think that is...

American satire. Yeah. Modern American satire. Yeah, exactly. And I'm trying to ask this question without answering it because I want to hear your answer. But like, how do you feel that point of view has changed over the years? Because as people have grown more savvy and like, how much did it change from unironic making jokes to satire and maybe even parody of news to becoming kind of like

essay maybe a bit outragey and then you know like how do you feel that that i mean it it um it grew as its as its audience grew as its audience got smarter we got smarter and the audience leads you and they not only lead you but they give you the freedom and the freedom that they gave us is huge and you see it now when all of a sudden um

I can now in the midst of one of my things stand up and yell about stuff. Right. I get upset. The audience is not. And it always comes incrementally. Yes. And it's really grown. And there was something that really worked about bringing John back. And then something that I was saying from the time before he came back and Trevor had left, I said, let the fucking correspondence host. Stop it.

That was my take on and when I'd have interviews with people around the country, you know, they don't give a shit in Des Moines I mean they didn't nobody listen I Might as well been sending telegraphs back, you know, but I felt that I really did I felt that it was it's time and it would grow again having John come back really

really kind of was like great because it basically got them to look again and then by looking again they went oh we can try this yes and nobody basically had to take like Trevor had to take over yes nobody's taken over so it's your take and then it's the take of those others whoever they

We'll talk about them later. Yeah. But I guess I'm trying to get to this idea that like when The Daily Show started, the news was very different in America. And so you could satirize that. I mean, in a nutshell, like it was Tom Brokaw. It was like there was three news anchors maybe. And there was a way of satirizing it, which I don't know.

how would you approach that now? If a daily show wasn't this institution, if you tried to do it now, it's almost like you couldn't, I didn't even know how you could do it because it's so chaotic and fragmented and there's no monoculture, there's no context for, you know. It would have to be on this. Right, right. It would have to start there, I feel. Right. Because that's where the whole world, now you've got, what is it,

i find myself looking at this going so there's a thing called news and right right and this guy really and these two women are completely psychotic right and they're basically saying that uh the breathalyzers are fake i mean you just kind of it's it's partly having to mirror all you know and which is what we do in part still i mean some of my stuff

still deals in that frame. See, this is why, this is what you're so great is because as long as I've known you, you've never actually shat on the present and put the past on a pedestal. You've always been like, it's different and now it's great and it was great before. And, you know, I guess what I'm trying to ask you is, is satire dead now? You know what I mean? Well, the hard thing for me, it has been, and I've been yelling about this for about the past,

Since since Trump came around. This is how do you it satirize what is already satiric? Yes, and I I kind of go I go on stage and we'll go read something and go It's like what is it the benefits of slavery? Okay, I

How am I supposed to make that funnier? What context do I fucking have to put that in for you? It's done. And you look at it and I'll say that to the, I go, here's my favorite punchline this week. And I do this, I've been doing it for a year now. I got the benefits of slavery and they'll go, uh, and I go, you assholes. How do you miss the joke? And if you sit there and groan about it, then what you're saying to me is, maybe there are some benefits.

Wake up! And I do feel like that that's part, I mean, when I watched your set recently, when we were doing it, you know, when I watch you work, you have, you got that sense. I mean, it is, and it's not easy. It's like you work through it, you work through it, you work through it. Right, right. And I've had to come around other ways to try to get the joke off. Right. So in a way, satire is dead, I guess.

I think it is. Yeah, I mean, I guess those are the questions I want to ask you about The Daily Show's past because you're kind of uniquely placed to talk about all this since you have such vision on it. I did want to switch to the present, though, and kind of talk about this week's hot summer piece. Yeah, it's about how hot it is. It's really insightful. Well, again, I mean... Because it's hot out here.

- Monday was the hottest day ever recorded on Earth. The previous record, which was set on Sunday, only lasted 24 hours. - It's hot. Really, really hot.

The hottest day ever recorded on Earth. Suck on that, dinosaurs. We can destroy the planet ourselves. We don't need an asteroid like you pussies. Yes, this summer, the heat is kicking our ass more than usual. Last week, it was so hot in New York that, and I can't believe I'm going to say this, I asked the Hawk to a girl to hit me in the forehead. LAUGHTER

It is hot out and not to be disparaging, but you have seen a lot of summers. So you have summers to compare to. This is the shittiest. This is it? This really wins. I mean, by far, because I have a chunk of it off.

You know, it's like, really? I'm supposed to go outside? And then, which they don't fucking talk about enough, is air quality index. Now it's not only 95 degrees, you're not supposed to breathe. Yeah, yeah, you can't breathe. I mean, except for last summer, it was because of the fires on this part of the United States. You really couldn't go out. Yes, yes. You know, at least you're here. Oh, yeah.

Sky turned orange Yeah For a couple days Yeah but it made For a wonderful sunset Yeah Yeah it was Almost a permanent sunset To be honest Yeah You couldn't miss it It lasted a long time Yeah that was pretty scary That one So climate change Climate is fucked Yeah Politically we're fucked Uh

All right, just another day in America. Just another day. Just another day. And you have a podcast coming out here. It's a rant cast because I don't talk to people. I read the rants that people send in. Some people send in things about peanut butter. Some people send in things about pickles. Some people...

Scream about things that are going on at their office. Somebody talked recently about the fact that he's had five different bosses in charge and how each of them is a dick.

and the levels of dictum in corporate America and that this idiot doesn't know that. And then I comment occasionally on them, but mostly I let them stand on their own. What's good about it, and it was said when I had to leave the road and the pandemic had started, these people were starting to write, you know, I wouldn't put them on The Daily Show as a writer, but they were writing for my voice. Oh.

From that point of view, in terms of what was pissing them off, brilliantly. Wow. And now they're getting back to it again. Well, this is the thing about you is that for a crotchety old man, you are very appreciative of modern...

and you are very cutting edge in everything you do. I mean, you were, I remember seeing you doing the Rantcast live during the pandemic. Yeah. And you really embraced technology and all that stuff. Yeah. It was good. And you've seen it. You've seen it change completely. Yeah. You went from literally theater, the oldest form of that. Yeah.

Of entertainment to seeing early days of television production of The Daily Show to full Daily Show. And then now you're live streaming on YouTube. Yeah. I'm sitting in a place just like this. I'm sitting in what I call a bad cable access studio with nobody around. It's like a lunatic. You're watching a lunatic.

But it's great, yeah. And I just, I'm going to read this so I don't miss it, but I'm going to say something sincere after I read this out. So, for tour dates, you can check out lewisblack.com. Lewis Black's Rankcast is available on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. And I just want to say, Lewis, thank you so much for your kindness to me and your friendship and your advice. You,

You and all the legends of The Daily Show. When I joined the show, I was like, if I can be 10% as good as these people, I'll be very happy. And so thanks for showing the way. And thanks for speaking to me. Well, that's kind. Way more than 10%.

Your bulls suck, but you personally, you really have been quite remarkable and we're lucky to have you. Oh, no, thank you. That's high praise. And thank you for joining us on The Daily Show, year's edition. I'm getting paid a lot. Okay, good. I'm glad someone is. We'll see you next time.

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That's F.

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