How much is Trent distracted by Real Madrid?
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At Sierra, you'll always find apparel, footwear and gear for 20-60% less than department and specialty store prices. But right now it's clearance time, so you can save even more on everything you need to get active and outside. Visit your local Sierra store today. The Athletic FC Podcast Network. Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ian Irving. So despite a 23-point gap between Liverpool and Manchester United on Sunday, there was nothing to separate them. Bonaccio's cross, and

So how did United unsettle Liverpool and with Trent Alexander-Arnold's poor performance under the microscope, is his contract situation now causing a distraction?

Right, here for this one we have Adam Crafton and Si Hughes as well. Hello gentlemen, thank you for joining us. Adam, I'll start with you. Ahead of that match at Anfield, it was predicted that Manchester United would lose. Some predicted they would lose heavily. What exactly do you think they proved in that 90 minutes? I think they proved that they've got some good footballers, that they can play to a plan, that they can play with...

some pride and passion and intensity and aggression. And I think they surprise people equally. You know, it's very rare in Manchester United, Liverpool fixtures. I know we've seen sort of two or three over the past year

what, four or five years or so where it's been really humiliating for Man United. But actually, although Man United hadn't scored at Anfield since 2018, there was quite a few nil-nils within that. Even the game where when Liverpool won the title and won 2-0, it was a goal by Salah in deep into added time to seal that game. So yeah, it's very rare that these games are a complete demolition job.

But what we did see was that Manchester United, I think they restored some self-respect. And I think it was a really good day for Ruben Amorim. But we saw them win at Manchester City a few weeks ago and then it went on and looked very different. So they just now really, really, really have to follow it up. So from the Liverpool perspective...

It was a strange performance in many ways. We'll obviously talk about Trent Alexander-Arnold's individual display from Sunday in a moment, but does it sort of suggest how far United have fallen behind Liverpool, that the celebrations have been loud and proud despite the fact it was only a 2-2 draw? Yeah, I think it does. I actually thought when United scored the first goal...

I thought they're over-celebrating here a little bit. You know, there's quite a lot of the game left to go. They were all hugging each other. And then within 10, 15 minutes, it was 2-1 to Liverpool. Obviously, when you recover and...

take what was looking like a 2-1 defeat and get a draw, you're quite rightly going to be happy after the game, as the United players were. I just thought if I was a United player, a United fan, I'd be disappointed not to win that game based on how United played compared to Liverpool. So I can understand sort of the... It weren't quite celebrations at the end, but they were certainly having a communion with the fans at the Anfield road ends.

I think that United should be ruined the fact that they didn't get more out of the game, despite the context of before, which Adam's described. You know, sometimes you've got to look at the game as it plays out. And I thought United were the better team. Let's get more on the Manchester United performance at Anfield with the Athletics United correspondent, Laurie Whitwell. Here's his view then on the point for Amarine's side from our Talk of the Devils podcast. I thought that was a much more...

performance from Manchester United and I'll

I thought it was an absolutely thrilling game, a brilliant occasion to be there in person at because we've been there when it's been 4-0 defeat, 7-0 defeat, 0-0 when nothing happens and United are just thankful to get out of there. So United hadn't scored since 2018 at Anfield, so to get two goals feels very fortunate. Could have been three as well, that chance at the end for Harry Maguire. But I just thought there was so much about the performance to draw encouragement from, really good individual displays.

And I suppose Ruben Amarin and Bruno Fernandes afterwards were quite right to sort of be angry at the fact that they don't do this every week. But hopefully that has just reset the sort of downward spiral that United felt like they were on and it gives them a platform to build on. That is the big question from the game yesterday, Adam. Where has this Manchester United been? December in terms of defeats was their worst calendar month for 95 years. The

the performances against Wolves against Newcastle against Bournemouth is so far below what's expected at United and you even had the manager embracing sort of the chat about being sucked into the relegation fight to try and shock people he said they were starved of leaders in the press conference before the Liverpool game the

That was a reaction, I think, from the team. But where's that been? Well, I think there's a few things going on. I don't look at this set of players like some people do and think they are. I felt at different times over the past 10 years, there's been sets of Man United players that I've sometimes looked at and thought...

I don't think I like you, you know, in terms of the way you go about playing, you know, the attitude on the pitch. With this group, I just think they've been low on confidence, quite poorly coached for quite a long time, really poorly recruited. Some of them I just don't think are good enough for the level actually.

And then, you know, you add on to that, that, you know, you're trying to introduce a whole new system. And I know people keep saying, you know, the international players, they should be able to play in any system. Actually, I mean, this system seems quite specific. He's been trying to do it with barely any training sessions, a game every few days. And then when you're in that position, you're relying on momentum and confidence. And they've not really been able to get that

And then also, you know, there's been times where they've had issues with personnel. So the game against Newcastle the other day, that wasn't really about a system. That was about why were they a lot better yesterday? Because Maynou, Ugarte and Fernandes come back in.

to the team, right? And all of a sudden the midfield looks way better. I think as well that there is something about these games, and this is where I worry about Man United because I'm worried that they might be a team a bit like Liverpool used to be, right? That are able to turn it on when they go and play against their big rival. This isn't really what I'm saying. This is what Lisandro Martinez was saying yesterday as well, you know, saying it's in their heads to a certain extent.

And they don't hit the levels, you know, when it's against a smaller team. I think there's also something maybe tactically about going to these big away games where you can play slightly deeper when you then play Bournemouth at home or Newcastle at home and you spend a lot more time on the halfway line and probably more time in possession.

then I think you're a little bit more exposed. So I think what happened yesterday is because United were a lot deeper, they were able to grow in confidence, that then builds confidence on the ball. And then, you know, you get 30 minutes in and you're nil-nil at Anfield. And you remember, actually, we're half decent. Maybe we can put some attacks together. And that's what you saw at the end of the first half.

And then by the second half, they're actually thinking, I'm not sure this lot are as good as everyone says they are. I mean, Si can speak way better to this than I can. But there's times I watch Liverpool, I look at them and I think, they might have a really bad couple of weeks coming. And then you'll get that 15-minute spell within the game where I watch them and think, they're

They're going to win everything. It can happen within the same game. Well, the thing is, you know, over the last month, Liverpool have dropped points. They dropped points at Newcastle in a particularly chaotic game. They dropped points against Fulham, another chaotic game where they had a player sent off. And now they've done it against Manchester United. So there's almost this outward perception, oh, Liverpool keep winning. It's like, no, it's the other teams below them keep dropping points. They're not capitalising on it, are they, when they slip up? Yeah.

You could look at it two ways, couldn't you? You could say, well, Liverpool haven't capitalised on the other teams slipping up. Meanwhile, the other teams haven't capitalised on Liverpool slipping up. But the reality is, I think Liverpool are a decent team. Obviously, if you're top of the league with the gap that Liverpool have at the moment, there's a reason for that.

But it doesn't mean that, you know, you can't get at them. And teams have had some joy against Liverpool on occasion this season. I thought the United performance yesterday reminded me a little bit of Newcastle's at St. James' Park last month. They had similar joy for similar reasons in the game yesterday. Albeit, I thought Liverpool played better against Newcastle than they did against United. So this isn't a perfect Liverpool team. It's a very good one, which...

For my money, yesterday's side tends to be outstanding at going 2-0 up, the manager making the right substitutions and closing the game out, and then see you later. That's what they do well. That's what they're doing really, really well at the moment. They've had a couple of, like, obviously big wins, Tottenham away, West Ham away, but the season has been underpinned by solid 2-0 wins, really.

or performances. So, so, so, so how does that work now that they've started conceding goals? It's a concern, I would say. And again, I think it's partially a product out of the change in the team, you know, with the, the centre-back partnerships have changed quite a bit over the last month and,

I think people forget just, I mean, I thought Virgil van Dijk had a really good game yesterday, despite, you know, the pressure that he was under. He managed to repel chances before they became chances yesterday. Some, some sorts of blocks and tackles and just bits of defensive positioning that probably gets overlooked in the analysis of a game.

But, you know, he's had to play alongside Joe Gomez, who's obviously a very good player, Canarte, Gerald Kwan's on occasion. It's not easy even being the main man. He makes that transition look easy from time to time. But I do think it counts against you over the course of a reasonably long period. One thing's for certain, they can't afford for him.

to get injured or miss games or leave the club as he might. Yeah, there is that because he's just been crucial to Liverpool's season so far, I think. Yeah, he has. Obviously, his contract is up at the end of the season. You'll know this as well. Mohamed Salah is up as well. And of course, Trent Alexander-Arnold. And we're going to have a deeper look into his situation and the uncertainty after yesterday.

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Nine out of ten people will tell you that it affected him, but I'm one of the ten that tells you that I don't think that affected him. What affected him is that he had to play Bruno Fernandes and Diogo Dalot, which are two starters for Portugal. I think that is more difficult for Trent to play against Bruno Fernandes and Diogo Dalot.

than it is the rumours that were there during the week. Yeah, that was the Liverpool head coach, Arnaz Slot, talking about Trent's performance, which was a difficult afternoon against Manchester United amid all the transfer speculation with Real Madrid. Si, I'm not sure saying that you're not one of the nine out of ten who thought his performance was affected by the speculation is the most robust defence that a Liverpool manager has ever put up in a press conference. Yeah.

No. I mean, evidently he kept him on the pitch longer than I thought he should have stayed on. I mean, it was very clear to me that it was a big problem for Liverpool. The United were having a lot of joy on that area of the pitch. A grimace, really, watching Trent Yastey for the first time. You know, he's a fantastic footballer, but it was a really, really difficult game for him. What was wrong with him? I do think there is a bit of truth in what Arne Slott's saying in terms of

He came up against Bruno Fernandes, who we thought had an outstanding game. He's been very hit and miss at Anfield over a number of years, undermines some United performances, I would say. But I thought yesterday he was crucial to the outcome, really.

I thought he and obviously Dallow doubled up on Trent. Now, this is where there's a couple of things at play. So I think Arnaud Slott could have been quicker to address that a little bit yesterday. You never get Mohamed Salah running back towards his own goal. That is not part of his game. You expect some more from Ryan Gravenberg. I don't think he had his best game for Liverpool. He's been outstanding for Liverpool, but

we're not talking about protection for Trent, but just assistance in that area of the pitch. Quite often it was two on one, sometimes three on one at a point where Trent had pushed higher up into an area where he's trying to affect the game in a positive way. So there's those things that are at play. And I also think, you know, it comes back to Liverpool's recruitment over the summer. They wanted to sign another midfielder,

I think at that time, Ryan Gravenberg wasn't thought of being the player that he has become this season. So Arna Slatt might say, well, you know, we did get that player in the end. We got the player that we were hoping for in that area of the pitch. Of course, he hasn't said that, so I'm just surmising. But I do think Liverpool are one player short in the midfield. I think, yeah,

Yes, it could have been a game yesterday where if you put a more defensive-minded player in the midfield to give him a bit more coverage or you take him off, it stems the problem that Liverpool had. But I don't think that the manager reacted quickly enough to the problems that Liverpool were experiencing. Adam, do you think he was affected by the transfer speculation or do you think he just had a bad game? I don't know him, so I don't know.

Thank you for that lovely piece of insight. Well, no, I mean, I just sometimes think like, you know, we have to remember sometimes, you know, that we are completely really guessing, you know, at some of this stuff. What I would say is I've seen Trent Alexander-Arnold have games like that before, you know, when there wasn't transfer speculation. Games where...

you know, his passing becomes a little bit Hollywood. Well, I think we'd just be talking about his weaknesses defending in one-on-one situations if it wasn't for the transfers. I've seen Marcus Rashford have good days against him. I've seen Garnaccio have good days against him.

I thought he was worse in possession yesterday, actually, almost as much as he was out of possession. That's what surprised me yesterday. I thought some of the choices he was making on the ball, it was like what was happening to him off the ball actually impacted his confidence as the game went on. And you could see and hear the Liverpool fans becoming that little bit frustrated with him. I think...

He has to be careful over the next few months that, you know, if you're going to play this game where you are doing this high wire act where you might leave your boyhood club to go and join Real Madrid during a period in which Liverpool are chasing a second title in over 30 years, you better turn up. You better turn up over this next few months because actually,

as fantastic as he's been and I think he's been unbelievable for Liverpool as most people do if it was to go wrong over the next few months and his form was to dip during that period and Liverpool don't win the league and then he goes and joins Real Madrid I think it will change perceptions of him in Liverpool fairly or unfairly and that's why you know he has to be careful and I think to be blunt if he plays like he did yesterday for two or three more games maybe even less

On a slot, we'll just play Conor Bradley. And I think he'll have the support of the Liverpool fans in doing that. Because, you know, I mean, this guy Bradley has played against Real Madrid and been absolutely fine.

So I think Trent has to be careful over the next few weeks. Yeah, there's definitely an opportunity for that, Si. I mean, the next game is the League Cup tie against Tottenham, the first leg of the semi-final. Then there's the Accrington FA Cup match at Anfield before Liverpool are back in Premier League action. And actually, when Bradley did step in for Trent Alexander-Arnold earlier on in the season, it wasn't like Liverpool were weaker for it. Yeah, I think he's an excellent player. Different sorts of players to Trent. But I think maybe yesterday what it did show...

is if Trent Alexander-Arnold had decided to leave Liverpool already, it would have been very easy for Arnold Slott to just say, come off. Whereas, obviously, he stays on. It proved to be the wrong decision, I think, because, you know, it led to Liverpool or contributed towards Liverpool dropping some points. But,

It says to me that Arne Slott is still definitely trying to keep him on side, which would indicate that he's still a play for the long term. Maybe a manager doesn't think like that in the heat of a game. Arne Slott's proven himself over the last couple of months really to not make many drastic changes on the pitch. He hasn't had to, to be fair, because Liverpool, by and large, have performed very well.

But if things are going wrong, he tends to back his players to work themselves into a situation where they can get a point or they can turn it around and win the game. So it was a very unusual set of circumstances, I would say, yesterday. Very strange, you know. As you've sort of alluded to, Trent Alexander-Arnold in his career has never found himself or never been in a position where at the start of the week...

It's been announced that Liverpool have, or it's been revealed that Liverpool have rejected a bid for his services. Then he's going into playing a huge game against Manchester United where everybody is sort of watching for signs of what he's thinking. You know, there's a lot of pressure on him at the moment. And as Adam says, I do definitely agree with him. I think the Liverpool fans, particularly Liverpoolians, I think it's hard if you're a local player. It becomes hard if it doesn't seem like you're fully committed to the club.

And just as Liverpool are top of the league at the moment, they could end up slipping away. And if they didn't, and suddenly Trent does decide to go somewhere else, there will be a post-mortem for that and that will come up. So he is playing a very dangerous game, I think. And the unfortunate reality for him is, you know, this isn't just football, but history tends to remember football.

your worst decisions or your most difficult moments and how you leave your point of exit, no matter what you've done before. And if it's particularly bad, it could affect his reputation, I think, and his standing, the way people think about him. So, do you think he was uniquely bad yesterday? When I watch him, I forgive a lot with him because what you get the other way is so much. But did you think yesterday was kind of

a very uniquely bad performance deserving of the kind of scrutiny that it got after the game I haven't seen him play as poorly for Liverpool since he made his debut as you suggested earlier it wasn't just his defensive work it was very loose in possession

I think you can always tell. I always think you can always tell how Liverpool generally are going to play by the first couple of minutes, the first couple of passes that are made. You usually see Virgil van Dijk ping a cross-field pass. Mohamed Salah brings it down and straight away everybody thinks, oh, it's going to be fine.

But Trent was involved in a lot of the earlier, more creative attempts to get Liverpool going at certain points. You could look at it two ways. You could say, is he taking an unnecessary risk here? Or is he showing that he can make these passes? One or two of those passes did connect. But then, yeah, he was just far too loose, I thought, too casual at certain times in possession.

And then when you marry that with a performance defensively, particularly when, I mean, I lost count of the number of times the ball was behind him. If you're a defender, that's not a nice position to be in. In the past, you know, he has been the creative hub of the Liverpool team. That's still his role at Liverpool. But I actually think this season, some of his defensive performances have been a lot better. You know what? I don't think he's this terrible defender that people...

make out I think you can get at him sometimes but a lot of these people are judging him based on how a fullback used to play you know like where they were like short and stocky and just ran around like Barney Rubble barging into people that's not that's not the game anymore that's not the game as you say he's an outstanding footballer who in a second sense I can't really think of many players better than him but yesterday I

I felt, I just, I was wincing, you know, when the ball was in that area of the pitch and it wasn't a nice feeling really, just as a human being thinking about whether you're a fan or whatever, it was, it was a really difficult afternoon and, um,

I thought that Arleslott should have done the merciful thing and removed him from that situation because it just wasn't getting any better for him. Si, on a wider point with yesterday, how alarming is it that that performance has seen such a switch in the narrative around this contract situation for Trent and the others? Because the thing that's amazed me throughout this season is that you've got three of the most important, most high-profile footballers at Liverpool Football Club out of contract at the end of the season and yet...

It's been a huge talking point off the pitch. I mean, when you consider Liverpool have played 28 games this season, Arnaz Slot will have pre- and post-press conferences, he'll have pre- and post-interviews, there's pre-season to throw in there as well. He's literally been asked hundreds of questions about the contract situation. On the Walk On podcast that you do, you've got the contract weekly, which is a bit of a joke about there not being an update and the fact that it's still being talked about every single press conference, every single interview, every single week.

And yet on the field, it doesn't seem to have made much of an impact until yesterday. And now all of a sudden, all the chat,

after one bad performance is that this player has had his head turned and that's led to the poor performance. That's not a narrative that Liverpool or any of the players or the manager or any of the supporters will want to grow after that, is it? No, well, I think the difference is that there has been a development last week, hasn't it? You know, things have changed. It has become a public matter that there's been an offer for the player which has been rejected. So I do think that that changes things because straight away,

The conversation, which had been more on Salah, I would say over the last month especially, possibly because of some of the athletics reporting, has switched to Trents.

So suddenly, you know, people are watching him for signs of, well, where's his mind at? A lot of the questions were directed to Arnaud Slott before the game. What about Trent, not Mohamed Salah or Virgil van Dijk? But Slott's dealt with it well, hasn't he, throughout this season, no matter which player it is? He has, he has, but there hasn't been an offer for any of the other players that have become public.

So I think that does change things. Of course, we don't know where this story has come from in terms of the source of it. Who wanted that story out there as well? I think that is majorly significant. I know a couple of people who might know. Yes. So credit to them for breaking the story, of course. Yeah. So I think that...

The narrative will swing between whoever is in the news for either performing on the pitch, not performing on the pitch,

their representatives talking or whatever, whoever draws attention to themselves, whether good or bad, are going to be spoken about and the focus will sharply turn upon them and that will carry on over the next couple of weeks. I mean, what Trent really needs now, I would say, is to play the next game against Tottenham, have a good game and Mohamed Salah to score a hat-trick and then suddenly

That conversation about him will ease a little bit over the next week. Okay, next we'll get into how the uncertainty over Trent's future has been able to develop. This is the Athletic FC Podcast.

So, Si, Trent Alexander-Arnold is 26, with the other two, Virgil van Dijk at 33 and Mohamed Salah at 32. Perhaps it's more understandable to let the older players run into the final months of their contract. That said, there's been a lot of changes at executive level for Liverpool, and I don't suppose that's really helped with these contract negotiations. I think it goes back to the summer of 2023.

All of this really, I mean, the three players you mentioned, they were all two years away from the contract elapsing at that time. And yes, I agree. I think that it's more understandable when you're talking about players who are over the age of 30. Now that's the reality of it. I would argue both players in question could be thought of in...

as special cases I think Bertolt van Dijk you know started his elite professional career much later than most players you know I think he's still got the legs to play same with Salah really I think he you know I know he firmly believes that he can play for a lot longer but

But nevertheless, I can understand it becomes more of a problematic discussion with the players for that reason. With Trent, I know for an absolute fact, and I reported at the time, that certainly there was a surprise that nothing could happen from Liverpool. And if you trail all this back, Liverpool was in a bit of a flux at that point. The club had been...

up for sale Mike Gordon the president who's key you know in this process had stepped aside for a period before coming back Jürgen Klopp had appointed his own sporting director although the sporting director wasn't permitted to get involved in the retention of players so just at the point when Liverpool are trying should be really thinking about engaging certainly Trent you know if not the other players but

there was a lot of uncertainty around the club, which I think has allowed the situation to slip away from Liverpool and not in control of it anymore. If at that point, I'm sure if Liverpool had made a big play at that point and said, look, we've got this plan for you. You're going to become this player. You're going to, you know, become the captain. You know, this...

We want you to stay forever or for much longer. You know, I think he would have been receptive to that. Si, do you think they took him for granted as a homegrown player? Sometimes you see with homegrown players, it's as if the clubs just own them, right? It's as though you can just think, we don't need to work as hard on keeping Trent as maybe we do, you know, a Mo Salah where, you know, both financially, but also actually just in terms of showing that

Love, appreciation, connection. Is there a bit of that there? You know, this sense of, you're not really going to leave us. You know, you're a Scouser, you're not going to go. I'm tempted to say yes, but I genuinely just think on this occasion, it's Liverpool, a bit of incompetence really, you know, and not being as organised behind the scenes as they were. I don't know whether those conversations were even happening. You know, we need to get this sorted quickly.

So I do think that happens, definitely. I mean, it definitely happens with a player like Jamie Carragher. I'm sure Jamie Carragher would admit this himself, but there wasn't a huge number of clubs queuing up to buy him, whereas there was always going to be a market for Trent. If that was part of the thought process, they've totally...

underestimated the fields and the marker for footballers. Okay, that's the situation to a degree at executive level for Liverpool. Obviously for Manchester United there's been huge changes in the last 12 months. It's been 12 months since the INEOS investment with Sir Jim Radcliffe leading that of course for the club. You reported on it yesterday

Well, the anniversary with Laurie, you've reported on INEOS's leadership of Manchester United extensively, Adam. I mean, the piece went out over Christmas. It was quite a thing to digest on Christmas Day morning, along with the presents and plans for Christmas dinner and whatever else. I mean, how do you assess the job that INEOS have done across the last year, in your opinion? Everything looks better after a good result.

That's the first thing to say, right? You know, if you have this conversation after the Newcastle game, I think, you know, the feeling around the club is different. Is it though? I think it is a little bit. You know, I think with Man United, it's always, there is always such an extreme reaction to good and bad, right? So, you know, they lose against Newcastle, they're going to get relegated. Man United are not going to go down. I was surprised that the manager indulged it as much as he did, to be honest.

I'm fascinated at the moment by the way the manager is talking in terms of some of the things he's saying. You know, some of the stuff he said yesterday where he comes out after a good result and basically says, I'm mad at the players because they didn't do this in all the other games. Also, he said that before he'd said that to them because he admitted in that interview that he'd not spoken to them in the dressing room because he was too angry. Yeah, and I'm curious as to whether this is sort of deliberate and calculating or

or whether he's just quite an emotional guy who comes out and says what he thinks immediately after a game. If it's the former, it's quite interesting. If it's the latter, let's see how that develops, right? Because if he's saying that after six weeks or two months...

then what's he going to be saying after a year? But he may be that kind of Mourinho kind of figure that is very, very calculated and deliberate in the way that he's talking to the media and very in control, which I think if I was leaning one way or the other, it would be that way at the moment. In terms of

The INEOS story, there was a lot of mess to clean up. That's the first thing to say and I think that gives them a degree of leeway. Clearly, if you'd spoken to anyone over the past few years who worked at United, even the biggest allies of the Glazer regime, they would say big mistakes had been made in terms of recruitment, in terms of the money that had been spent, the money that had been wasted, etc.

I think that there had been a degree of excess around the club. However, I think there has been a kind of insensitivity, impersonality that's maybe gone with the steps that they've taken. I think some of the penny-pinching that they've been doing really kind of defies common sense. Ultimately, Man Utd's revenues are going to be decided by three key factors. One is TV revenue.

which, you know, if you also factor in Champions League qualification, Europa League qualification into that. The other is the kind of the big sponsorship deals. And then the third is player trading. Now, one of those is still fine, the sponsorship.

However, you know, you've got Training Kit and the Sleeve sponsor up for renewal in 2025. That's a problem for them. The other two are depleted, right? If you think that, you know, over this year, a team like Real Madrid is going to be in not only the Champions League, but also the Club World Cup. That's a lot of revenue that they're going to get that Man United aren't. At the same time, they still have the Premier League revenues, but they're missing now consecutive years, Champions League football. That's a big problem.

If you then add on to that the player trading issue, which has just been disastrous for a decade, that's how you bring money into the club. That's why Liverpool are a far better run club than Man United. They haven't made those mistakes as consistently as United. That's how Ineos get the revenues right at United. And their plan to do that was a sporting director. That was the Dan Ashworth thing.

So for him to be in and then out as quickly as he was is of course an embarrassment. And then the other bit which is confusing me a little bit, and I don't want to bring down Man United fans on this podcast because I think Amarim has been really good. But one of the big criticisms in the past few years has been every time Man United get a manager, they let that manager lead the recruitment. And now because of the particularity of Amarim's system, they're going to have to buy four

Four or five players minimum really suited to a very specific system. So it means they're all in again on a head coach. Now, I was in the room where Jim Ratcliffe spoke to journalists in February, March, and he was talking about the club and

setting the style of play, the club having a game model and building recruitment around that and the head coach being like a cog that would fit into it. They now seem to have U-turned on that a little bit. Yeah, I'd urge people to go and read the article that you wrote with Laurie if they've not seen it already. Obviously, it's up on The Athletic. Anyway, enough about Man Utd's problems. Anfield was leaking yesterday, Si. The roof was literally caving in.

Yeah, well, my dad was in the main stand yesterday and I started the day with a 10 minute conversation with him about the roof, which he complained. So he didn't even want to discuss the football, maybe understandably given what happened, but he was not happy with the roof.

Obviously, when things have happened at Old Trafford because it's, you know, an ageing venue or Everton's new stadium, you know, bearing in mind a few concerns around how the stadium is being funded and built and everything else, there's a lot of focus on it. So naturally as journalists, well, you know, the new standard Anfield has a problem. I mean, I have often spoken about at least and discussed with friends about FSG

So it's taking slightly cheaper options. So that, you know, when it comes to many things, so maybe, maybe the, the design of the roof could be looked at. I don't know. Maybe it's a symbol.

of the way things are at Liverpool to some degree. If I can bring it back to the ownership situation for both clubs, if that's possible. Sajid, how much of an example are Liverpool to Manchester United in terms of the way that FSG have been able to direct them back to being at the top table of English football again? Well, the thing is, it's quite difficult to have a discussion about FSG without it becoming, well, certainly one extreme opinion, but

And, you know, on the other side, somebody trying to balance this out to some degree. I mean, I think they've been responsible owners of Liverpool. You know, all the things that we know about hiring a top class manager,

getting the recruitment right, getting the stadium right. This is all the things that INEOS are trying to do as well though, isn't it, in that sense? Any good owner, I suppose, but that word responsible, and I don't suppose that is a word that has been used much considering some of the unpopular decisions that INEOS have taken at United, but that is supposed to be the way that they're trying to go about it. Well,

The bottom line is they don't get everything right. And you talk about responsibility. Well, I would argue allowing three players' contracts to run out at the same time is irresponsible. So, you know, just because they get one thing right or one thing wrong, it doesn't mean that that is them, absolutely.

I think obviously what they have done, I mean, for years, for decades at Liverpool, the big challenge in terms of catching up to United was the economic worlds of the clubs. You know, United were operating in a different stratosphere when it came to finance. FSG have helped close that gap. That is coupled with United's downturn on the pitch, which has increased that possibility. But, you know, it comes down a lot to getting your appointments right, doesn't it, ultimately? And Liverpool hired a world-class manager in Jurgen Klopp.

who had every chance of being a success based on what he'd done previously. They were patient with it though as well, weren't they? They were. I mean, I think...

I think at Liverpool, you know, there's a lot of pressure from the outsides as the years passed and Klopp still hadn't got the trophy. But I think anybody watching the team could see the development year on year on year. And at the end of each season, they were in a better position than the season that they finished the last one. So that is the way ordinarily, you know, it was a bit of a throwback in some ways, a team building year on year, getting better players steadily, steadily and getting the recruitment right. And off the pitch, as we know, they had a very...

recruitment plan. Now it comes down to this really. I just see, you know, Liverpool have been more competent in all the decisions that they've made. I don't think the Glazers have. Some of the themes that Adam touched on there about Ineos still confuse me. I can't really understand why they've jumped from one manager with a set of principles allowed him to do that to another manager with a slightly different set of principles because, you know, there's not a

It makes it quite difficult for the players, I would say, and this is what it comes down to, right? Players understanding what they're meant to be doing on a football pitch. Yesterday, it looked like that they did, you know, for probably one of the few occasions under Amarim so far, but it is early days under him. In fairness, it is very early days. My concern about Amarim is on day one, really, the game against Super Switch Town, where he's complaining about having to do press conferences and interviews, and I thought,

your man United's manager mate you're going to have to do this you're going to have to get used to it pretty quickly He'll have learnt that by now I'm pretty certain of that The bottom line is I think that FSG played a key role in the way that Liverpool are in the idea of having a local owner with lots of money it's just the game's moved on now I think the you know the venture capitalists from Boston do they really care about Liverpool probably not have they run the club

yes. Are they a model to follow for other American owners? I would say other American owners should be looking at what FSG have done and where they've got right and where they've gone wrong as well, because they have gone wrong in certain situations, albeit obviously Jim Ratcliffe is...

supposedly a local guy with interests at heart. But yeah, I think they are a model to follow, but it doesn't mean that they've got everything right. I think we all deal in absolutes now, don't we? It's like, as soon as, you know, I saw some of the coverage before the game and it was, you know, Liverpool got slot, that makes him, that decision absolutely right. You know, and Amir was the wrong decision. It just depends, a lot depends on sort of the condition and the conditions behind the club. And I'm absolutely convinced that,

you know, that no club is a success without things being right off the pitch. At the moment, I think United have still got a lot to get right. I think Liverpool are rediscovering still the sense of sort of where they're at. They're still not, you know, despite the position in the league, I still think things are still getting together off the pitch, you know, after a lot of change over the last couple of years. So,

It's only when you get the off-the-pitch rise, I think, you know, the on-the-pitch can begin to flourish. OK, we'll leave it there then. On the Athletic FC podcast, it's incredible what a 2-2 draw between Liverpool and Manchester United can spark in the conversation. But I've enjoyed that. Si, Adam, thank you very much for being with us as always. And thanks for listening along. We'll be back tomorrow with more on the Athletic FC podcast.

You've been listening to The Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic Media Company production. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.