#5. The Cold Shower
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What is it like actually going through a panic attack? If I could put a sound to this feeling, it's... Does it make sense? Kind of. It's as if there's... You heard the news that the end of the world is coming tomorrow. I do my cold showers.

Are you still doing cold showers? Yeah, it's been like almost two years. I can't close my hand. Really? They literally freeze. So have you tried doing cold shower during your panic attack? That's a good idea. People like David Goggins and other people that have pushed so far past it that it's almost unbelievable. Two fear zones. Yes. And panic attacks. All right. Hello, man.

We're gonna go back give this Tealings whiskey another shot. I remember you guys didn't really like the last one. But this is a different one. So we'll try it. Tealings whiskey single grain Irish whiskey. This one is matured in wine casks, but not the Chinese wine casks like last time. Wanna put some ice? You want ice? Yeah. Wanna switch it up today? So it's not gonna taste like fried rice this time?

I just threw a huge chunk in your glass. Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. Is that going to bother you? No, fuck it. You want more ice? Yeah, let's go. All right. Whiskey snobs are going to be like, you guys. Yeah, that's ridiculous. So? All right, let's rock it. Let's do it. So we were hanging out before this podcast over at Charlie's. We were doing a food taste test for some of the items he wanted to put on his menu. And, uh...

One thing we kind of realized is that we shouldn't get together before we do a podcast. Because every time the three of us get together, all of a sudden we start talking. We start getting all these conversations. And by the time we actually want to have a podcast, we're kind of like all burnt out. I don't want to talk to you guys at all. We shot our load too early, basically. I'm talked out.

Let's just sit here for an hour in dead silence and meditate. But what I was saying is that it would be good for future episodes if we had the cameras and audio equipment with us. And because we talked some pretty cool stuff with Charles. And yeah, if we just had it like an impromptu session. Because we were pretty much sitting in a circle, like a semicircle, and like just discussing and just talking. And it was pretty natural. Yeah.

Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. I like this one. I like this much better. Yeah, much better. This is much better. I actually quite like this one, actually. This is very good. I like it. Yeah. You don't like it, Eric? It's better.

It's better than the last one. It's better? I actually like it, like not even comparing it to last time. I like it with the ice. Yeah. I'm needing this right now, that's all I gotta say. Well, I'm kind of hungover right now, so I need some... We're all in different places. We're all in very different places. Alright. We were having a hard time trying to figure out what to talk about today because, like I said, we kind of shot our load a little too early today.

But what did we want to talk about? What was it? Panic attacks. Oh, yeah. You were talking about panic attacks. Yeah. Well, I was mentioning to you guys that recently, the past couple of days, I had some panic attacks when I sleep.

And I mean, in general, I used to have a problem sleeping back in the day where I would go a month to two months at a time where I would be sort of... I'd have insomnia. So I wouldn't be able to sleep till five or six o'clock in the morning. Wow. And I'd be like fucked, you know, the next day because I haven't slept. You know, I'd sleep like an hour or two and then I have to go through the day because I'm working or whatever. And then I'd just be like a zombie all day. And then basically, I always wondered why do I have insomnia? And...

And I came to a conclusion that it was almost as if I didn't want to sleep because that would bring me to the next day.

So you were dreading the next day? Yeah. I know that if I go to sleep, then the next day is going to come when I wake up. I didn't consciously think this, but I think subconsciously that's what was going on. Wow. Have you ever had insomnia? I've had insomnia, but I don't have it often. I get insomnia randomly. The problem with me is...

The well problem with everyone I think is the more you try to go to sleep the worse it gets right the work the more you can't fall asleep Especially when you're like when there's actually something to do, right? So if you don't have too much to do the next day, usually you won't have insomnia But usually the next day there's like like an event right? and uh or something and you're like Oh, you're under under pressure to like fall asleep fall asleep fall asleep because then you know You're already training the next day, but you know, it's gonna be that much worse if you don't get any sleep. Mm-hmm

So but the more you try to push yourself to sleep the more you can't sleep So I I have it randomly but once in a blue moon once in a blue moon I don't like how often do you get them son? I'm sorry not anymore. Not as much anymore. I mean I got it a lot when I was Not doing directing so when I was at the you know, he didn't see life. Yeah, I would I had a lot of insomnia then um, I think it goes it goes with stress and

Now, but when I was younger, I don't know why it came, but it would come often. So I started coming when I was in college. And I think it was because of a shock, you know, from my own family perspective, like my family all leaving and I was like alone in America, except for my sister. And then, yeah, and it was just basically adapting to a whole new life situation. So I would have these like anxiety attacks and like I've gotten to pretty deep depression. And then...

After that, after college, it would come every couple of months, you know, and I don't know why. No idea why. So now I don't get like depressed as much like I get down, but I don't get like depressed. But I do have anxiety attack. And usually it's not even because of a project like right now. It's not because I'm like depressed.

I'm on a project, but it's not like I'm concerned about it. It's actually a very easy project. So I'm not stressed at all at that. So I don't know. It's just been coming. When was your last panic attack? Before this one?

Well, when was this one? Oh. Justin's like, when was your last panic attack? Like, don't worry. He's not going to jump off the building, okay? He only lives on the second floor. He'll just break his legs. Break his legs. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah, so. Well, when was your last one? Like, yesterday? Last night I didn't have it, but the two nights before that, back to back, I had it. So I was up to like 5, 6 o'clock in the morning. The panic attack or insomnia or both? Both.

Because they go hand in hand. Were you home alone? Well, my mom, you know, my mom lives with me. So she, she's in her side of the house though. So she doesn't know that you're having a panic attack? No, I don't tell her. So I'm asking as a person that's never actually had a panic attack, like a full blown panic attack. Yeah. What, what is it like?

for you? Um, so, okay. So because I've had it so much, uh, I kind of know when it's coming. So for example, I'm in bed, right? And so now I usually go to bed, like I'm trying to sleep like around 12 o'clock, right? That's like my goal, uh, between 1130 to 12 o'clock. And so I'm like in bed, I'm trying to go to sleep and you know, nine times out of 10 for the most part, I'm asleep within five minutes. I sleep, fall asleep pretty quickly.

But then I know it's coming because I'm laying down and my mind is jumping from one thing to another. And that's when I'm like, oh shit, it's going to come.

And then the minute, because I know, it's kind of, and usually what's happening is I'm thinking about negative things. Right? So normally when I'm going to sleep, it's not, I'm not thinking about negative things. Maybe I think about happy stuff or I'm just like random shit that doesn't even matter. But then the minute I start thinking like, for example, I got to handle my taxes. I can imagine. You know? And I see it and I was like, oh man, I don't like the way my company's going right now. Like, I got to fix that. Oh wait, oh no. Like, what about like,

Like, what's going to happen in the future? And usually it's about future. Because the future being unknown, future always gets me going. Like, in a bad way. So is it like sudden thoughts that come in randomly? Sudden. And then they won't go away. And they compound. Are the thoughts exaggerated? Of course. Of course. The morning. Because the morning I wake up and I think about it.

fucking idiot you know it's like um but because i'm in the moment everything becomes it's almost like if i can put a sound to this feeling it's does it make sense kind of yeah yeah because all of a sudden it's like it makes sense i feel like everything is closing in around me and and all these thoughts are like like punching yeah yeah so then it only happens at night now yeah yeah when i'm trying to sleep

Yeah. And then and then and then it's just like everything's hitting me, hitting, hitting me. Thoughts are just like compounding. Like I think about like, oh, my God, I have a horrible relation with my sister. You know, like everything is exaggerated. Everything just right. So like there are true things that are happening in your life, but you're putting this really like dire lens on it. Yeah. And then I got to the point where I literally got up from my bed. I'm like, fuck, it came back.

Like I can't fight it. Yeah, like you know. Like I can't fight it. Because you've been through it before. You know when it's like it started. Yeah, I can't fight it. And so I tried my best to not sleep anymore because if I'm laying down, my mind, like my eyes closed, it's just going to attack me. So I open my eyes and I start like trying to like read stuff or watch stuff or play some games or anything to get my mind. Yeah, well, that can make it worse, right? Because I was just about to ask you like what do you usually do right before you go to sleep?

Because oftentimes, you know, what you're doing right before you go to sleep has a carryover effect to the quality of your sleep. Yeah, I know. But I'm pretty routine with what I do. Well, so I'm always listening to a couple of like, you know, short YouTube videos, either about basketball or some of those things I subscribe to. Right.

And then as I'm getting ready for bed, I have a couple of games that I check in with. And they're not like those games that I spend like an hour on. So they're pretty fast. This is like, you know, I do some quick things, a little quick match, and it's like 15 minutes and I'm done.

And then I'm like, okay, now I'm ready to go to bed. And then I go to bed. Well, the right thing to do is to reduce any stimulus right before you go to sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. So I'm trying to cut down myself because I got into a really bad habit of just like binge watching like YouTube videos right before I go to sleep, right? So like I'm lying on bed ready to go to sleep, but like, you know, I'm not like really falling asleep yet. So I just like kind of like watch all the YouTube videos catch up on, you know, like just...

entertainment that you know I've been wanting to watch and But I'm trying to cut back on that because I found that that really affected the quality of my sleep Because you're kind of stimulating your brain right because these visuals and you're staring at a screen and you're listening to sound you're watching these videos It's giving you so much input and then right after you're supposed to go to like dead sleep so like your your your your brain is like at a heightened sense of like activity and

Right? Receiving data and it's working. And just because the videos are done, you're closing your eyes. Those things, that activity is still going on in your head. Right? And you don't want that activity right before you go to sleep because it can cause insomnia. Well, they say that you should have at least 30 minutes before. Yeah. Like at least 30 minutes. Yeah, I'll try to minimize any kind of stimulus. But you can read a book. That's okay. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Why is a book okay? Yeah.

I don't know. I think, I think it has, it's not moving and it's like, you know, you're not really, you're just reading. I don't know. But even, I think the best thing to do if you're, if we're strictly talking about quality of sleep, it's probably just to reduce any sort of kind of stimulus and input, um, as much as you can, right before you go to sleep. Yeah. No, I agree. I, I, I've definitely thought about that.

I've actually even gone to extremes of thinking about how to start creating different habits. Because I have habits now when I wake up, how to incorporate habits when I go to sleep. So they're on both ends of my waking up and sleeping schedule. Because it's not just starting off good, you've got to end good too, right? So I do want to think about that. But going back to panic attacks and insomnia, I don't generally have insomnia. Yeah.

that routine that I just told you, it never affects me. Like nine times out of 10. So these panic attacks, they're unexplainable, unexplainable because they just come. - And how long do they last? - Until I'm so exhausted I finally fall asleep. - Really? - Until like hours. - Yeah. - But what is it like actually going through a panic attack? Like what is it like? - It's like difficulty breathing.

Like I actually feel heavy chested. So it's like it manifests itself like really physically. Yeah, my heartbeat does rise to like probably 120, 130 beats per minute. Are you sweating profusely? I don't really get too sweaty. It's just like...

Yeah, I don't get it. Justin has a stereotype. Yeah, I picture him just dripping in sweat. It has happened. It has happened. And I've also had panic attacks where it's happened to me while I'm like, I vividly remember waiting for an elevator.

Like just waiting for an elevator. All of a sudden the sound hits and I feel like the end of the world is coming. And if you, if you had to guess how many panic attacks would you say you've had in your countless? I don't know. A thousand. No. What's like the rate? Like if you had to average out like once a month or like not anymore. Okay. So throughout my life, maybe like 40, 50.

So since you've had like so many, is there like a, like when you know you're having a panic attack, do you go, is there like a routine you go through to like, you, to try to end it as soon as possible? Is there like a thing you do now? Yeah, because now I know, like I know what to do. So it's like, so like for example, when it, when it hit me for the first time and I was like, fuck, like before I'm like, oh shit, oh shit. And I just like kind of fall into it and I'm just like reacting. But now I'm like, fuck, it's here, you know? And I'm like, so I know, I know I just got to,

Suck it up. Tough through it. So there's nothing you can do. Well, I do breathing exercises. So I do like... I focus on my breathing. Like Wim Hof? Like Wim Hof breathing? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like four in, five out. And then so like...

Yeah. And then, and then, so I'm counting when that happens and, and then usually my mind will start freaking out. I'm like, ah, fuck, fuck, fuck. And I'll like, I'll have to like think of something else. Yeah. It just, it's weird. I don't know how to explain it. Do you get panic attacks? Because if there's anyone that I would think would have panic attacks, like I would, I would guess that you would have panic attacks all the time. Yeah. Cause I feel like you're just wired more to like have panic attacks. Yeah. No? You don't? Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.

No. No, I think I probably had a couple...

Because I thought I was sick. I thought I had some, you know, heart condition. And then, you know, you start getting heavy chested and you start freaking out. And that's like quite, it's awful. Like you really like you freak out. Like when I thought I was sick, but really there was nothing wrong with me and it was all in my head. So I think there's some mental element. It's just like you feel the best way to describe it because those panic attacks, like I said, it's not because of a certain event in my life.

It's not because I'm, you know, the, this is a panic attack, not insomnia. A panic attack is like, it's not because, oh my God, my work is crazy or no, no, it has nothing to do with that. I don't think, um, because they come randomly. Maybe it's an amalgamation of things maybe, but what you do feel is that tomorrow there is no tomorrow, you know, it's like bleak. Wow. Yeah. And it's like, you feel like there's no hope.

Or like, you're fucked. That's it. And I don't know why. It's just weird. That's the best way I can describe it. It's as if you heard the news that the end of the world is coming tomorrow. You know what I mean? That's the best way I can describe it. Well, do you kind of have that kind of mentality just normally? No.

You know me. I mean, I can get negative or pessimistic, but in general, I feel like I'm pretty positive and I'm pretty, you know, well-adjusted. Well, yeah. I mean, you give the...

You know, you give the feeling that you're positive when people... But, you know, oftentimes what people are really feeling inside and what they're putting out there, you know, can be two different things. Like Alan. He, like, has panic attacks, like, every day. Keeping up with the party. That's why he goes out in clubs so he doesn't have to face it. Yeah. No, I definitely... I do feel like most people who know me well will know that I'm not...

what I put off, put out to people, I think. Yeah, that's what I asked. Yeah, because in general, the general people, they think I'm a very outgoing person. I'm very, you know, I'm an extrovert and that's not it. But people who really know me know I'm an introvert and I'm pretty like recluse. I'm the same way, I think. So I don't know if that answers your question. So you were talking about habits before, like what kind of,

Just in terms of ways to kind of minimize the occurrence of having insomnia or even panic attacks to some degree, do you have you implemented any kind of new lifestyle changes? I mean, one thing I have I have started doing and I just need to get better at and doing every day. But I do it when I remember to do it, which is when I first opened my eyes, I start counting all the positive things in my life.

Just stay focused on the positive. Like things you're grateful for? Yeah, gratefulness. I'm grateful for X, Y, and Z. It could be even simple things like I'm grateful to be able to wake up right now. Something stupid like that. Or I just think about something recent that happened or whatever. I just focus on the positive things. Name five things. And then I get up. And then I just do my thing. And I do my cold showers.

You're still doing cold showers? Yeah, it's been like almost two years. Like full-blown cold showers from beginning to end? Not from beginning to end. So I do a hot shower first. Is this a sprinkle? No, no, no. I do hot shower first because I've tried it, doing a cold shower with soap, and it hurts my skin. Like it literally does not, I can't do it. So I'll do the hot water first with soap if it's at night. But if it's in the morning, I just only do a little bit of soap just for like, you know, refreshing. And then it's like three minutes of cold shower.

Three minutes of like all the way. All the way. And you're just like, are you still like screaming when you do it? Never. No, no, no, no, no. So like literally now it's, it's like, so hot shower, it's maybe about a minute and a half. Right. And I have my like iPad playing whatever I'm watching. Right. So it's just. So you're watching videos while you take showers? Yeah. Yeah. Jesus. Okay. No, I don't, I don't watch it. I just listen to it. I just listen to it. It's usually just like. I picture you just like.

Staring at the screen. No, no. I don't need to stare at the roof. I have that mounted in the corner. Or like a podcast or whatever. So I just have it going. And then what I do is I do my hot shower and then I check the time on the video. So for example, it's like a minute 15. So I'm at minute 15 and I go... I turn off all the hot water. It's 100% cold immediately. And then I just go. And it's usually... I have to start breathing fast because that's a normal reaction. I don't scream at all. It's just...

And I just start spinning, you know, like about 15 to 30 seconds on each side. I just keep turning, turning, turning. And then I check. It's like three minutes. Okay, good. And I get out. Yeah, a lot of people are doing these cold showers now. I haven't really picked up that habit. I really like it. So what are the benefits you've noticed? Okay, so...

How about this? Let me first explain insomnia. I stopped having insomnia. I mean, I mean, I used to literally do his cold shower that day and then it's coming. That's coming. Maybe. Well, I actually tried like there's a one day about a month ago.

in the middle of winter as you know it's winter um i had one day where i actually skipped the cold shower the one day and why is because i woke up really groggy and i was just like not in the mood for some reason right even though i've been doing it for like a year and a half i said you know what i'm not gonna do it i took it i said i took it i went outside and then i make my coffee that's like my first thing i do is i make my french press

And then French press. It's gotta be French press. Diva over here. Yeah, exactly. You'll get director. So I'm like shivering. So I'm like making my French press because we don't put on the heat in the house, right? And I'm just used to going on a t-shirt and like shorts because after a cold shower, I don't feel cold. So I'm like shivering. And I feel like shit, right? And I'm like, Jesus Christ, I can't do this anymore.

And so the next time I went to shower, it's like the thought of taking a pure hot shower erased out of my mind. I'm doing the cold shower. Wait, wait. I don't understand. So it's reverse. Like reverse. So you felt cold because you didn't take a cold shower? Exactly. So now I'm going to the benefits of the cold shower. It's because now I know it's like I cannot take that cold shower.

Like, I kind of skip that cold shower anymore because I know it feels like shit. Because when I take a cold shower, I feel great. So when I leave, when I get out of the cold shower, first of all, like I said, I don't have heat on. And like I said, it's the middle of winter, zero degrees. Why don't you have the heat on? I don't know. It's just my mom doesn't like to put on the heat. Save the gas bill? Yeah. Well, no. It's just like they feel like it's healthier. Because the heat, it makes your skin dry and stuff like that. So they think it's healthier just to...

Anyway, whatever. I used to always put on heat, right? And now I'm used to it. And just basically they say just dress warmer. You're tougher now. Well, they're like dress warmer, right? I'm like, yeah, whatever. So now I don't care. So like I get out. Yeah. Chinese families, right? So like I come out of the shower and number one, I don't feel cold at all.

Right. So I'm literally walking around naked in that house and it's like freezing and I don't feel it. That's number one. Number two is like adrenaline is pumping. Right. So I feel really good. Like just positive, happy, you know, it's like, so have you tried doing cold shower? Um, like during your panic attack, like while you're having it, yeah. That's a good idea. Snap out of it. That's a good idea. Yeah. I've never thought of that. Maybe I should try that. Yeah.

I should try that. Yeah. Like, once you feel that panic attack coming on, like, oh, it started. Just jump in that shower. Just boom. Sit there and just... I'm going to try that. Just message us before you do it. Yeah. Film yourself doing it next time. Well, the next time, if it comes back, like, yeah, I'll definitely try that. Because I do feel really good. I do feel positive. So when you're saying, like...

Because you're saying you have feelings of euphoria after a cold shower. You're feeling good. You're in good spirits. Feeling more energy. How long does that usually last, though? Is it just for a few minutes you're feeling that way and it fades? Or does that set the tone? Some people say it lasts all day. I don't notice it all day, but I do notice it for the first hour or two. That I definitely do. But then after that, I don't know. Because I'm just really focused on my day. So I don't know.

Do you do cold showers? No. Have you ever tried it? Maybe once or twice. I like my warm showers. Yeah, me too. I like my warm showers. I like my shower time. You're not taking that away from me. No, I don't play YouTube. I'm in there having a good time. Just enjoying the shower. You're having a blast. I'm having a shower. I'm like, who doesn't enjoy a warm shower? It's like amazing. I've tried it. I've tried it because a long time ago you told me about it. So I tried it and then...

But I did the method, yeah. I did it for a few seconds at the end, very end, all the way cold. But I remember you said you did like 15 seconds. That does nothing for you. Yeah.

You need at least a minute and a half. I actually keep my space heater on in my bathroom like 24-7 so that I walk in there. It's because you're used to it. It's amazing. I feel if you can only pick one room in your house to be heated during the wintertime, it would be the bathroom. Yeah, 100%. I hear that. It would be the bathroom. Before the bedroom, before anything, it would be the bathroom. Can I just emphasize something I just said? So I've been doing the cold shower for so long and I went back to the pure hot shower

And I realized that I felt like shit. It was like bad because the comparison.

of after doing this cold shower for so long and how I feel it is relevant. Because I still do hot showers at night sometimes. I just go right to sleep. You know what I mean? I prefer the hot shower before going to bed. But sometimes I'll do the cold sometimes. But in the morning, definitely cold shower. And I can compare the two. You know what I mean? So I don't know. I'm just saying. They also say that cold showers strengthen the immune system. Yeah, I really get sick now too.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You used to be a pretty sickly person. Right? You remember that, right? I used to catch a cold all the time. I would always call you weak. Exactly. In a weak body. Yeah. But this past two years... There's no weak body but weak mind, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this past two years, I got sick once. No, because when we were working together at Roxland, right? Like, he would always, like, have these, like...

Like little annoying sicknesses. Like nothing major. Nagging. Yeah, nagging. Nothing major, but he frequently got sick. Like colds, this, this doesn't feel good, this doesn't feel good. So I was always like making fun of him. I was like, you're just a less devolved person. Yeah, I used to get sick all the time. And like this is one of the things that I'm really happy about. So you've definitely noticed a drop off. I got sick once.

Once. Since taking cold showers? Yeah, two years. For two years, you got sick once? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I mean, I've had like sniffles here and there, but one time I had a cough and a fever and I was sick. Wow, that's really good. Yeah. Wow.

I'm saying it's like I'm a huge I'll try it maybe in July I support you August that's useless after a run it's useless no because because it's tougher here in Shanghai than like you know like let's say California right because like yeah yeah yeah Shanghai winters are notoriously uncomfortable and that's why I always laugh when I go on YouTube and I see these people talking about cold showers and they live in Florida

And I'm like, you're a fucking idiot. That's not cold. Because the pipes that bring in the water, they don't get that cold when you're in a tropical climate like Florida. It's freezing here. But in the dead of winter in Shanghai, those pipes are freezing. I'll tell you how cold it gets. When I do the cold shower, to this day, it still happens. If my hand stays under the water straight, I'm not like... Oh, they start aching because it gets so cold. No, I can't close my hand.

They literally freeze. So I walk out of the shower, my hands are like this. And I can't even use a towel. I have to wait like a minute. And then I slowly move my fingers. Because if I move them, it's like an ice pick in my fingers. It hurts so much, like arthritis. So I'm like this. And then it slowly warms and I can move.

That's how cold the fucking yeah, the pipes the tap the tap water that comes in is like it's freezing It's like it's like right before water turns to ice. Yeah, it's literally right before it is cold But you know what I get pissed when it gets to summer and the water doesn't get cold enough I'm like I don't get that feeling cuz you're like already like I'm like I want that your tolerance is already like yeah I want that adrenaline

You know, I want it. Like give me that fucking adrenaline. Because it feels good. Yeah. It's a drug. Interesting. I wonder how many people are actually doing the cold shower thing. I haven't met anyone here that does it. Every single time I talk about it, they're like, what? You're crazy. Especially like girls. Like Chinese girls. They're like, what? They're like mind blown. They're like, are you kidding me? You do that? I'm like, yeah. You should try it. Never.

Can we try it? Can you guys try it? No. Really? I'll try it. I'll give it a shot. You promise? Yeah. You promise? I'll promise to do like it at the end for longer. I'm not going to do a beginning to end cold shower. No, no, no. That's just preposterous. I don't do that either. That's ludicrous. I don't do that either. Actually, oh, you know what? I did do a cold shower recently.

Because I couldn't get the water heater to work in my aunt's place in Taiwan. Oh, yeah. And I had to take a couple. But still, that's Taiwan. The weather's not. No, it was cold. Pretty cold. But, I mean, if you try it, like, try it starting tomorrow because the water already is getting not as cold. Like, I noticed it already. So, it's still cold enough. How long do I have to be under it? A minute and a half, at least? Yeah, I would say a minute and a half. Push through a minute and a half. Because otherwise, literally, your body's not adjusting at all. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah. I mean, I've been looking to bring in some new positive habits into my lifestyle anyway. I can put this on a list. You know what I mean? Other habits I've been trying to add and incorporate is, I mean, I'm trying to read more books. You're reading? No, I'm listening more, but, you know, one step at a time, I guess. Because you don't read. Yeah. So I'm doing more listening now.

But I want to eventually get to paperback. Like, I want to start reading because I think there's a... It's like a mountain to climb. He's like, I want to eventually read a paperback. It's like my Everest. He's like, well, at first I need to learn how to read. I need to learn how to read. I need to learn the alphabet. I've never seen a book in his hand.

I've carried some books. I know you can read because we text, so we verified that. You guys text is always like voice messages. Oh, that's right. It's always voice messages. Interesting. Okay. I'm trying to be serious. All right, go. But no, I am trying because I think there's a real big difference between actually reading a book and listening to a book, right? So listening to a book is good when you're commuting and stuff like that. But it's a whole different experience when you're actually reading, like physically reading a book, right? Yeah.

Um, so I want to, I want to incorporate that as another habit. Um, I'm listening to more podcasts now and not just like, you know, like just Joe Rogan. Yeah. Not just Joe Rogan, but, um, you know, I'm listening to like, you know, that's why I was asking you for like, you know, good podcasts because I know the podcasts you like to listen to are more kind of like thinker, like thinking like intellectual, like educational kind of podcasts. And, um, you know, some are pretty good. So,

I'm just looking for more habits to kind of healthy habits. What are you reading now? I'm not, I was reading the happiness hypothesis. So I pretty much finished that. So now I'm going to download another. Do you have things that you've taken out of that? That you feel like you can incorporate or learn, you've learned more about? You know, it was, it was a decent book. Um, but just like Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life. Um, I, I didn't, I don't feel I got as much out of it as I expected. I would.

You know what I mean? And a lot of things I felt like, yeah, well, I kind of already know. And I really think that way already. And so it wasn't like this huge eye-opener for me where I was like, it wasn't like a revelation or anything like that. It was a good book. And it just kind of reinforced some of my thoughts. And there was some new material in there that I was like, oh, okay, good food for thought, things to think about. But it wasn't like this huge epiphany or anything like that that I thought it might have been.

because of all the kind of like praise and hype around the book. But, well, for Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life, what I didn't really relate as much to is because he cites stories out of the Bible a lot in that book, right? He keeps going back and referring to like passages in the Bible, stories in the Bible, right?

So I was never like a hugely religious person, so I don't really know those stories too well. So it didn't really kind of like hit home for me when he kept going back and referring to those things. And he kind of like paints a lot of his lessons in parallel to these stories. So, but yeah, I don't know.

But I know you were talking about habits, Eric. And I think if anyone out of us three who's been really kind of focusing and did a lot of more like changing a lifestyle and even like physically shows like you've been changing, you know, your habits and just general lifestyle. Like you have changed the most. Yeah.

So what was it like? Can you talk to us about it? Well, I wanted to bring something up. So thanks for the segue there. And, you know, we were I saw this really interesting diagram that starts with a circle and the circle depicts your comfort zone.

and where you feel safe, where you feel in control, where you feel confident. And I think, you know, where most of us live. Yeah. Like, like day in, day out, our bathroom or warm showers, you know, it's sort of this comfort zone. And then in this chart, um, there's a, um, a bigger circle like this. So imagine this is the comfort zone. And then this piece here is kind of like what they call the fear zone. Right. And then these are the things that make you extremely uncomfortable, uh,

you know, make you have anxiety, make you find excuses, you know, find excuses, like, and sort of like things that most people are trying to avoid on in their day to day. Absolutely. And areas where, you know, you don't have confidence, and you're just trying to avoid them, right? So kind of what we call outside of your comfort zone, right? So typically, you have your comfort zone, and then sort of your outside of your comfort zone or your fear zone. But then in this diagram, they show even bigger circles. So as you step back,

and kind of reflect on things that you may not have felt comfortable with before but now are comfortable. There's a learning zone and there's a growth zone. And so as you start reframing this and you realize that that fear zone is just sort of that immediate discomfort. And once you sort of push past this through habits...

through setting goals, and then you get into this learning and growth zones, you find that your fear zone actually gets absorbed into your comfort zone. And now you have a new comfort. So they become one. They become one. So your, your, your fear zone becomes your comfort zone. Absolutely. So for Howie, that would be,

His cold showers that's part of his comfort zone now and so what's remarkable about that is that the thing that keeps us from going outside of our comfort zone can be our comfort zone and we can keep pushing past and then you see people like David Goggins and you know other people that have pushed so far past it that it's almost unbelievable it's remarkable and so

That's really interesting to me. You keep pushing your own personal boundaries and exploring new territory. So my question for you guys on this one, and it applies to me as well, is

What is your comfort zone and what is your fear zone at the moment? Knowing that when I reflect one year ago, some of the things that were in my fear zone are now completely in my comfort zone. But these things are precisely things that other people feel are in their comfort zone. And then you have a difference in perspective and then you can start helping and sort of supporting others.

you know, these friends of yours and vice versa. There are people who have reached their comfort zone and things that are your fear zone. Um, and precisely like through my running, you know, I got a lot of that from the Nike run app and some of the guided runs, um, to help me push past that. So like for you guys, like what's in your immediate fear zone? Like, have you thought about that? No, I don't think I've ever consciously thought about my fear zone. Um,

But if I were to think about it now, I guess, I mean, I think more philosophically, I guess what I would, if I had to be really honest right now, would be, in a funny way, I think I fear attempting to try to achieve my true potential, if that makes any sense. Like the fear of trying to put myself out there to really strive for what I deeply think I can achieve, right?

is in itself a fear to me. I don't know if that makes any sense. We talked about this. I mean, you guys have worked very closely together. I think you brought this up in our first show, right? Yeah. Well, he, you, we were talking about Roxanne, right? And you were talking about, I think you mentioned something like, you know, the, when we closed Roxanne, because I put so much into it, um,

that, you know, I, in a way, may be traumatized by it. But that's not really what I'm talking about right now. I just feel like, and I believe that a lot of people share the same fear. I believe it's more common than maybe it seems. But I think most people avoid trying to attempt to achieve things that are maybe like, you know, to push themselves to achieve something that they actually want to achieve.

and to do things that they actually want to do. And I think part of it is the fear of failing.

Another part of it is trying to save face because I think a lot of people feel... I don't really feel this way, but it's only natural for most people to fear what their peers or people around them may think or judge them for doing something or attempting to do something and failing at it, which I think is a huge tragedy that we live in a society where...

People have this fear and people are kind of, and there's so many haters out there, right? So anytime you're trying to do something a little different, do it your own way or kind of think outside the box a little bit, unless you've already achieved something and you have a track record,

If you're just a normal guy trying to do something, I think you get a lot of people kind of try to tell you you can't do it or it can't be done. People are trying to take you down because if you are able to demonstrate that you can coming from a similar place as them, it shows their...

you know, they're, they're challenging, you know, and they don't want to see you succeed because they want to stay in their comfort zone and feel comfortable and say, you know what, actually it's not because I can't get out of my comfort zone. It's because, you know, this is truly difficult, truly impossible. No one can do it. So it allows them to then go back to crawl back into their, crawl back and be like, you know, I'm right for being here instead of showing, it's like holding, if you achieve something that they couldn't, it's like, it's holding a mirror up to themselves. We're like, you know, you know, so,

Maybe what were, when you think about things in this way, can you remember, recall things that were in your fear zone very distinctly and then became part of your comfort zone? Because I think that kind of muscle memory is something that we're always trying to build up. That's a good question. I don't have to think about that. Something that was part of my fear zone before that is now in my comfort zone.

Comfort zone. I mean, this... And you know that this is something that's programmed into all of us. We were all once kids. We were all once afraid of the dark. You know, we were all afraid of leaving our homes, you know, and these types of things. And there were things that we were afraid of as children that we outgrew. I mean...

So we know that these things are in some ways programmed into humans. But at some point, I think we lose that capacity or we forget that capacity and then we stop that part of our growth. And I think the whole premise of this, you know, this this this diagram is that there's this learning zone, this growth zone that when you reframe things and there's a lot of literature out there, there's a lot of writers. Ryan Holiday is one that writes about it.

That once you reframe your challenges in terms of learning new skills, it totally changes the game. I think for me, in terms of fears, you know, I fear myself more than any external thing. You know, I mean, so like, I've always been, I think I've always been someone that didn't really fear or give a shit about kind of what other people thought. So I just, I just tend to do things.

And as long as I feel good about it or I feel I'm doing the right thing, then I don't really care what anyone else has to say about it. So I've always kind of had that going for me. I think what I fear most is I just fear myself most. I fear that I'm going to be my own worst enemy in many ways. I might overanalyze things. So I feel like in terms of having a fear zone that I've conquered...

It's nothing really external. It's more like internal for me. You know, I mean, it's all just like self reflection I have a question which is nothing related to this and also going back to What you're saying about when you asked him about what his fear zone is and he said it's you know himself and you know Doing what he what he wants and stuff like that and see where it goes his potential What about?

the two types of people, right? There's one type of person that is driven and like, you know, cutthroat. I get what I like. I know what I want. I'm going to get there no matter what, right? Focused, hyper-focused, right?

And then you have another type of person who may say the exact same thing. I want to be an NBA star. Let's say that. One person will put in 16 hours a day training, nonstop videos, you know, live and breathing basketball to get to that level. The other person is like, yeah, I want to be an NBA star and maybe have some talent and stuff like that. But maybe it does not put in all that effort. Maybe it does not. But he wants it. He tells himself. He tells everybody he wants it really bad. But yeah.

Does he really want it that bad? So here's the question. Is it a fear of potential or is it maybe you just don't have something that you really want that bad? Maybe. I mean, it's just a question. I don't know. Because I question myself that sometimes. Right. Because I look at, let's say, whether when I was playing music or now as a filmmaker, I look at other people that live and breathe cinema and like, you know, put in that

non-stop hours, you know, to hone their craft. And then I look at myself and I'm not doing that to that level. And I ask myself, is it because I'm not that 16 hour NBA guy?

you know am i not that passionate about it i mean i think i am but maybe not maybe i don't know what passion is maybe i don't know what that real drive is that's that's actually a very interesting point because i think i think the most common and obvious example of what you're saying is like you really want it bad enough is is weight loss for weight loss is a hugely popular subject um

And weight loss is not hard. It's really not. Exercise and eat healthy. You're right. Simple. It's not hard. Anyone can exercise. Anyone can eat healthy. Right? It's simple. It's basic. You just have to do that. You'll lose weight. But we all struggle. Most people struggle with the hurdle of trying to lose weight, right? And it's always an ongoing issue. And that's why there's a whole industry built around weight.

trying to sell to people, trying to lose weight, right? But it's a really simple thing. Anyone can really do it, but most people don't.

And everyone, if you ask them, hey, do you want to lose weight? Of course they're going to say yes. Everyone wants to lose weight. They're at home watching videos about how to lose weight. They're subscribing to kind of fads and cheats to try to lose weight quick and look good. They're buying. They're spending all this money. They're buying a membership to the gym. Exactly. They're buying all these things. They're buying all the new running shoes and workout gear. And they're preparing the easy stuff, right? Well, weight loss is easy too, but they're still not doing it.

So it's just really a matter of like, well, if you wanted it bad enough, you would do it. And you would lose weight. Well, I think this also circles back to what you said. Comfort zone. Right? Because if you want it bad enough and you're willing to give up that comfort zone, right? Because obviously anybody who wants it bad enough is going to go through some shit and pain to get it.

to where they want to be right and like you said that's like that growth stage that you're saying that growth circle because till you turn that past the fear and go into growth because because almost as like i'm trying to imagine i'm not that type of person but i'm imagining that type of person is like well pain and and fear and all that stuff is non-existent because the big picture outweighs you know takes up more space than that fear and pain that's right

It's also like how people say, you know, you're just not cut from that same cloth, you know? And so my question is, is that trainable? Is that, you know, is that something that a person like you and I who are not those type of people, can we get there? You know, is this something as simple as, well, we just haven't found that? Maybe, you know, for me, it's becoming a chef. I'm just, you know, for a random reason.

thought is like what if being a chef all of a sudden I discover cooking and I'm like holy fuck and I'm like putting in 16 hours to cook a dish I don't think so I don't think that's the reason but well I think I tend to believe that it is in theory it is trainable mm-hmm

But in reality, in actual practice, I think it really just depends on the individual. I think, you know, some people are just predisposed in a certain way. And no matter how much you try to motivate them or get them to do something, they'll never be that person. You know what I mean? Like, I've met a lot of people that are just a certain way. And like, let's say, you know, they just don't work out. They just don't exercise. They don't like to do anything physically strenuous. They're just predisposed, like, to their core, right?

Like they just don't want to do anything like physically strenuous. I mean, they'll do at all costs. They'll do anything at all, you know, to stay comfortable, avoid anything like. And so in theory, I think it is trainable. But I think there are just people out there that just I think they're just predisposed a certain way in the way they've developed. It could be, you know, in their genes or whatever it is that no matter what you do, you're never going to.

be them, get them to be a different person. You know what I mean? But maybe that's us. Yeah. Because the physical aspect is just one part of it. But maybe that's actually us. And no matter what, we don't want to get out of our comfort zone. So I don't necessarily think it's a category of people that, you know, exist. I think that everyone has...

this metaphor is actually applicable to everyone and so this is the definition of comfort zone and they'll do anything to stay within their comfort zone so so i'm not sure it's another group of people i'm sure i but i am sure that it's us it's me it's you and so you know how do we get past that and i think that if we want to get past it we can't um we can't try to do too much at once i think it

I think you don't push out of your comfort zone into a completely unknown realm immediately. I think you stay, you have one foot in your comfort zone and then you have one foot out and you sort of explore and then you get comfortable with that and you keep expanding. And so like, if my goal is to, you know, to, to run, my initial goal running wasn't to run an ultra marathon because that's just too scary for me. And I'd probably, I'd,

I actually don't have the experience in running to know the feeling and the success of running an ultramarathon. In other words, I can't even appreciate all the great feelings that comes with running an ultramarathon because I'm not even close enough to do that. But let's say that I was running one mile a week before and

um rather than running five or running ten and then being able to feel that and seeing the difference that's motivating and so it's sort of building up building up building up you know to the point where and maybe you'll never run an ultra marathon maybe you'll never be a you know three a michelin star chef but it's

actually incrementally pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. And I think the reason people don't get out of their comfort zone is because the fear zone is so massive. But if you view the comfort zone this big, just view your fear zone here and keep expanding

I think what we do is we say, this is our comfort zone. This is that fear. And then we know how the hell am I going to overcome that? And then I think once you reframe it and then you start thinking in terms of growth and learn, then you can rely on the skills that you currently have. So, because if I go from one mile a week to a hundred miles a week, I don't have the skills to do that. But if I go from one mile a week to 1.5 miles a week, I actually have the skills because I'm actually pretty close and you're kind of building up. Yeah.

You know, and then you're able to actually treat this as a growth and learning zone rather than a fear zone. It goes back to, you know, what we discussed a while ago was just be like what you said is like be don't don't try to make these leap and bound changes and think in that from that perspective, because then you're never going to go and you're never going to make the move because you're always going to be like, that's too daunting. I'm never going to achieve it. It's not fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Just be incrementally better. Just be 1% better today than you were yesterday. That's right. Just be that 1% or even less. You know what I mean? But just be like that little bit better and then it accumulates. It has an accumulative effect. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, you're probably right. Because for most people, that fear zone seems like a great vast desert that they have to cross. Like this endless desert that they have to get across. Instead of thinking of it as...

You know, if you take a step out in the desert, that step, that territory you've covered becomes like farmable land. Part of your territory. Part of your territory. It becomes lush and green for you. You know, it becomes your comfort zone. You can farm there. You can live there. You can grow fruits and crops and stuff like that. You get familiar with the terrain. Yeah. So then you can expand beyond that. Yeah. And every step you take into that desert becomes a rainforest. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And there's beauty in that. There's beauty in saying, okay, I'm going to expand a little bit and explore here and just get to know this new thing. And then from that new vantage point, as you then make the next set of decisions, things might change. And I think if you look at, you sort of look backwards and say people who started companies or people who have been successful musical artists, film directors, very few of them had a linear path from A to Z.

They only were looking like they kind of had a general idea of where Z was, but sometimes they don't even know where Z was. They just knew that Z was far. And then they went from A to B and then from B to C. And then, you know, eventually they got to Z. They would have never known that Z even existed because they couldn't even see Z from A. Every older person that I've

had meaningful conversations with that were, you know, much older and, and, you know, seasoned and successful, you know, like into their 70s and 80s. Right. And they always, they always say like, you can never in hindsight, looking back on their life, you can never

Like Steve Jobs, like famous Stanford speech, right? He's like, you can never connect the dots looking forward. They only connect in hindsight. You know what I mean? When you look back, you're like, oh, this thing led to that and that led to this. And now all the dots kind of make sense. But going looking forward back then, you can never have imagined where these dots were coming from and how it can. Or can you plan for that? You can never plan for it. You know what I mean? So, I mean, yeah.

So then you go back to the fear of failure. Each of these dots as they're starting to connect. So you can't connect all of them at once.

but you must connect the next one. Otherwise, there are no dots to connect. And as you're connecting these things, I think the filter, maybe it's not so much about fear of failure because the next dot is reachable. It's absolutely reachable because you're choosing a dot that can't, it's kind of like rock climbing. You're not going to try to go up the face of the mountain all at once. And so this fear of failure, maybe there's a bit of fear in saying that from this dot to the next dot,

If it's too easy, then there's no challenge. There's no growth. There's no learning. If it's too hard, you might not do it. And so I think there's a slight fear or maybe not fear, but maybe there's some sort of, you know, feeling of tension as you move from here to here. But then I think there shouldn't be a fear of failure because you're choosing your dots in the right way. And so when you said it's interesting because you mentioned earlier that

You've always marched the beat of your own drummer. You've never necessarily been consciously influenced by others. And when I reflect on that, I have operated in a different way. I've always been very conscious of what others felt and what they thought of me. And it's taken me time to kind of find my own voice.

Um, but that's only the conscious side of it. And so it's sort of like when you reflect on your fear, fear of failure, are you really immune to the opinion of others? Or is the definition, the mere, you know, the fear, the mere fact of being sort of scared of failure, some, some kind of, uh, representation of your caring for what others think.

Because success, I mean, you know, commercial success or financial success or business success is in some ways defined by your interaction with other people. It's almost impossible to have a fear of failure without actually caring about what others think. That's true. And I'm not trying to say that.

People, you know, people's opinions have not never affected me. Right. Of course they have. You wouldn't be human if if they have anyone who says they completely don't care is lying. I believe. Right. So it's had it's had an effect on me. And and to clarify, it's not like I don't think about it. It's not like it doesn't hurt me or or or or support me. You know, when when when, you know, if they think good things about me.

But it's at the at the very end, regardless of what they think at the moment, I might be like, oh, well, yeah, I might come up this way. And they might think this of me. I might be fearful of people's judgment in the moment. But at the end, for every kind of decision, major decision I've ever made in my life that had come to that kind of point where I would fear people, people's opinions or judgment.

At the very end, I've always said, you know, fuck it, screw it. And I've always ultimately decided to do what I wanted to do. So I'm not saying that it never had a role or I never thought about or feared it or had any concern with it. I do. I'm human. But I know myself because at the very end, ultimately at the end, I might consider it, but ultimately at the end,

I override it and I find a way to push it aside and still go with whatever I feel is right or whatever it is that I, you know, I want to do. And I ultimately still make that decision to take that path. So that's what I'm saying. You know what I mean? Yeah. That I make a conscious decision to push it away. Not that it's not part of my, you know, my psyche. Right. So, yeah.

It's, uh, and I think it's really important. Like what you were going back to what you were saying, I think it's really important for people to, I can't, I can't state this enough. It's like to really think incrementally, like what you're saying about connecting the dots. Don't think of that hundredth dot. Yeah. Because most people do. Hmm.

Right. When you think you think of the ultimate goal, you picture what success will look like. Right. Everyone who starts off on anything automatically jumps to this vision of what does success look like for me? Right. And.

And then so that's like the millionth dot, right? And they jump to that really way and they think of that. And for a lot of people, they think, wow, well, that's just so daunting, so far away from where I am now that they seem the effort would be futile, right? To even start. So they give up before they even try. Let's break it down for a second. Let's just use a random goal. I said chef before. I'm not saying I want to be a chef, but let's say...

Someone's goal was like, I want to be a Michelin chef. So the daunting idea of becoming a Michelin chef is like, well, I got to fucking know how to cook a whole bunch of amazing dishes and know the nuances of every flavor and know how to be creative with it. And I just like to cook at home. How am I going to get there? And I can see that becoming daunting, let alone the business aspect of opening up a restaurant and all that stuff. But then if you do the incremental thing,

Right. Let's say 365 days in one year. Well, day one. Well, I'm just going to learn about butter. You know what I mean? Like step one. Right. And by the 365 day and you've learned about 365 different things to get you to that level. By that time, you might already be pretty legit. The problem with that, though, the problem with that. And I agree. But the problem with that is that like most like myself and most people, they want to know even if it's just taking that first step.

They want to know that first step is working towards a direction and an ultimate goal that they can achieve. Otherwise, why even take that first step, right? So, like, let's say, like, learning about better. Like, well, why even spend the time if they already feel that the ultimate goal is...

is like I can never get there. I'm going to give up somewhere in between, right? And that this journey is just going to be too hard, too difficult for me to persevere and push to the very end. And that's the problem. Most people feel that way, right? So it's very hard to kind of just put your head down and just be like, okay, well, I'm just going to take this first step and I'm just going to see what's right in front of me and make that incremental leap, that incremental step improvement and do it without...

Without the confidence that you can achieve your ultimate goal, people are very unwilling to even take that first step, even though they know it's an achievable step. That first one, that second one, that third one. They just, I think deep in their hearts, they know that somewhere along the 99th step that they're going to give up, you know, and that there are going to be thousands of more steps to take, you know what I mean, after that. And I think people just kind of have that kind of mentality, right?

about, you know, about, and it's just a lack of confidence. The way I see this, this part is that there are a lot of things that we see that we admire, like climbing Mount Everest, you know, becoming a famous movie star, becoming a great chef. And I think that there has to be some honesty and self-reflection and

by the individual and say that the people who do end up climbing Mount Everest are becoming a black belt in Kung Fu. These people actually enjoyed each of the individual steps. And at some point, maybe they realized that they did want to climb Mount Everest and that was a goalpost that allowed them to push even harder. But the fundamental passion and motivation is not from

that ultimate goal. It's actually the process of enjoying every step. I agree with you 1,000%. And so there are probably times when you admire something and then you actually started the process and you realize this isn't actually what you really wanted to do. So there's this really great quote from this book that I read last year, a great book about focus and things like that. And it's the creativity that you see at the black belt level comes from mastery of the white belt fundamentals.

The creativity you see at the black belt level comes from the mastery of the fundamentals of the white belt. Fundamentals, you know, incredible, right? That's just...

sort of how it is. So I think everyone has to kind of figure out what those dots are, the ones that you really find your, your sort of passion in. And for some people, it's connecting with people. For some people, it's connecting with design. For some people, it's connecting with, you know, other elements, food. And until you find what those dots are that actually have meaning in your life on a daily basis, it's going to be difficult to, you know, to go in that particular direction. I couldn't agree with you anymore. The, I think if you look at

the most successful people and i'm not just talking about business people or financially i'm talking about in any field whether you're an athlete whether you're a chef whether whatever you're an artist or whatever it is there they're never people that take the process that look at the process as just a means to an end they're never that right so i think most people live in in that world where you know they want to make a lot of money or they want to be famous

And that's and anything they have to do in between is just a means to get to that goal. So it's not really a passion for it. It's just like, I want that. I want that. So anything I can do to get there, I'll get there. And then so so you have these daunting goals. Right. But for the truly successful people, like you said, they just have a passion for doing it just for the sake of doing it.

And it naturally takes them there because, you know, they're going to take one step. They're going to take two steps just because they love doing it just for the sake of itself. You know what I mean?

so well everything worth having takes effort and so unless you enjoy the effort you're not going to have what you want to have you know what you're what you're sort of yeah otherwise it's a chore yeah yeah so maybe to close because i think um what um what is one area or even one very small area in your life that you plan on attacking that fear zone to take you incrementally one step ahead

Well, I think for me, it's more about it's going to be more career focused. Now, for other people, it could be like a personal thing, a lifestyle thing, a relationship thing. For me, I think it's just about doing a career. And something that I've been I thought I've been toying with recently is maybe just going back into the, you know, it seems counterintuitive.

but it's not. And it could be just going back to getting like a steady nine to five job. Instead of trying to think with more and do things just for the sake of trying to be like an entrepreneur. I think going back to a nine to five job has has a certain value for me because I don't necessarily need to do it for the paycheck. But I think by putting myself out there and just being in motion, instead of just being still,

You know, you get to meet a lot of new people. You get to experience a lot of things. You get to learn some things. You get to see more of what's actually happening. Have your finger on the pulse of whatever industry you're in. And doing it and treating it more like an internship than anything else. Obviously, you know, I don't want to apply for a company being like, I'm just here just to kind of learn from you and I'll be out. But yeah.

But as a means to end, like, you know, it really won't matter too much how much they pay me, but it'll just be more about being in a company or working in a certain field or industry with people that I can actually learn from. Do you know industry? Have you thought about it yet? I don't know. I mean, there's so many industries. But, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of industries that I would be thrilled to go into. And so, you know, it's just more about kind of weighing my options. But that's something...

That would... Is currently... Would be part of... Outside my comfort zone. Yeah. Because... I don't think I'm... I would make a very good employee, to be honest. Yeah, you can come over with me. Yeah, I know. I've been thinking about that again, to be honest. Did your assistant quit again? I found a perfect one, so... Well, honestly, I think I'd be a terrible employee because...

In my younger days, obviously I had several jobs and I worked. But in recent memory, I've been always doing things my own way, starting my own companies or doing my own projects, things like that. So now to go back into the workforce as quote-unquote an employee, I wouldn't have those same skills that I think most people

employers would be looking for. You know what I mean? I'm not like, I'm not like a task. I'm not like a, you know, if you give me a task, I'm more of like a thinker. Big picture guy. Yeah, big picture guy. Long back. You know, because I've been so, I've been so comfortable being in the role. But that's the roles you've been doing for the past X amount of years. Yeah, just being more of, you know, an executive or a boss or an owner or, you know, founder or whatever it is. But,

Yeah. So I think I make a terrible employee, but, but I think that is, that might be a necessary fear zone to get into because I think there are valuable lessons and very beneficial things that I can take away from going back into a nine to five job for a while. And, and, uh,

and learning from that. And I think there are a lot of valuable lessons I can take away and just new revelations, new things, and just seeing things from a new lens again. So, so to make a long story short, the, that would be a current fear zone that I am thinking about making a comfort zone. Yeah. Right. So yeah, that's great. Well, I mean, that's fantastic. And I think, you know, when I think about that, um,

you know, building business is all about solving problems. And a lot of the problems that need to be solved can only be understood if you're at the ground level, if you're actually working day in and day out, dealing with the customers and dealing with the issues and running the business. And so I think there's a lot of value in being that. And I think the other thing is that it's not so much about being a great employer, not being a good employee, but if you want to be a great boss,

I think that you have to understand what your employees are thinking. And so there's nothing better than, I think it's like you look at the really successful people and a lot of them actually work their way up from the bottom. And that experience allowed them never to forget that the feeling of actually being that critical piece that was getting, you know, the pieces of work done and then becoming the boss and then being able to connect back to the people and helping them grow so that you're always mirroring yourself. You're always seeing yourself. And

And the people that you work with. Yeah, just like you can never be a general without having been like a soldier. You know what I mean? Because the soldiers are the ones that ultimately are going to help you win the fight. Well, I think this was a really good conversation. I really enjoyed this one, guys. And for having just pulling something kind of out of our ass at the last minute, this was actually very insightful. I'll say one thing. Next time if I get a panic attack again, I'm going to take a cold shower. Like that's a great idea. Me too.

Me too, I hope I never have one. I hope you will give Kolchow a chance. To your panic attacks. To fear zones. And panic attacks. Alright.