#134. The Cool Kids
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What have you guys been doing this week? All right. Let me share something. How about this? Let's get it going. Okay. So I'm going to miss something to you guys. And I feel like you guys are going to totally make fun of me like you usually do. And I don't mind. That's probably true. I don't mind.

But we recently recorded Life's Mixtape 2, right? And one of the things that I thought after recording that show was, you know, damn, I have not been really listening to music lately. When I'm on YouTube, I'm watching...

things about AI or UFOs. Yeah, certain aliens. Yeah, aliens, you know, that kind of stuff. But then I don't know what came over me, but I decided to look up some music. And for some reason, I don't remember what was the catalyst, but I ended up watching a music video for a band called Babymetal. Have you guys ever heard of Babymetal? Yeah, the Japanese girls. Yeah.

But they're old though. That was many years ago. Well, they have a new album that just came out a couple months ago. Is it the same girls? Because wouldn't they be like really old now? No, they're like 23. Like growing up. Oh yeah, because they started really young. 23, that's so young. Yeah, so Babymetal is called Kawaii Metal, which is basically like heavy metal with like really cutesy dancing and-

Yeah, it's like kawaii cosplay. Oh my God, they're like 20, dude. Literally like 20. But they're veterans on the music scene. Holy shit. I knew about them like years ago. What have we done with our lives? Exactly. So here's the thing.

I went down a rabbit hole. Okay. So I watched like the first early video, which is Gibby chocolate. And it's, and I watched the laughing. I'm like, this is ridiculous. But then I'm like, but it's kind of catchy. And then next thing you know, I'm like going down the rabbit hole. And then I, and here's the thing I noticed. And I want to start sharing some stuff. Couple of, this is like multifaceted.

First was the music was not bad. I was actually not... I was kind of into it. I don't ever listen to heavy metal either. But for some reason, it kind of worked for me because I like anime music and it reminded me of some like anime credits or something like that. So it was kind of interesting. But the next thing I started going down was reaction videos. So it's watching other people react to baby metal and the outrageousness of it all and just kind of like...

feeling what they're feeling when they're reacting to Babymetal because I just had my own reaction to it. So I watched it. It was like an hour or two of this, literally. And I watched this live video of Babymetal and then something came over me. I cried. I started crying. Yeah. Now, I was so distraught. I was like, why the hell am I tearing up? And I realized...

After watching them, a couple of things occurred to me. One was the fact that they were so talented, like passionate young girls doing their music. It was very nice to see. It was a very beautiful thing to see. Second was their fan base. There's like tens of thousands of fans singing along to the music. So I wasn't sure if it was that nostalgia for me because I used to play music, right? Yeah.

And then I started realizing, you know what? I think it's just general. It was just like a beautiful thing. It was just, I got moved. Right. So I started tearing up and then it happened again. After I watched another video, I'm like, Jesus Christ, why is baby metal making me tear up?

And I found out it was a thing. Then I started realizing that there's other people reacting and tearing up when they watch Babymetal. It's like the weirdest thing. But what is it though? Like, have you gotten to the bottom of it? I just said it. Are you guys not listening? No, because I'm actually, I'm looking up Babymetal right now on YouTube. I think because of what we always discuss about the negatives that's happening in this world and how, especially for me, speaking solely for myself,

I kind of go down that rabbit hole of negativity, of not sure what the future is going to hold. And I know on this show we try to push a more positive agenda, but you can't help it when you start to think about what the future may entail. So you see these young people really passionate what they're doing, the whole freaking 20,000, 30,000 people singing along, jumping along.

It was just a very powerful, emotional, beautiful thing. Period. And it was like... I feel like if I was young, the younger me would laugh at myself. Be like, what the hell are you doing? Watching these girls in little skirts acting all kawaii. Singing to heavy metal. It's ridiculous. But then...

I don't know. I think it's just music transcends it all. I don't know. But I mean, the idea of like a musical performance and like a bunch of people in the crowd all in unison, like sing along and jumping along to it. I mean, that's not unique to baby metal. I mean, you can go and look at a lot of

of a lot of great bands that have that, but you wouldn't cry. I don't know. And like I said, remember, it was multifaceted. So when I realized I was crying, and also I noticed that there's other people reacting to it, and they're crying too, it became a thing. Like all of a sudden, it's like, oh, it's a thing. And then you look at the comments, and they're like, oh, welcome, it's a thing. People cry to be well. Welcome to the club. What comes to mind as I'm trying to understand the emotions you're feeling, what I can think of is like, one,

Like a Japanese metal band, it's probably not like something you see every single day. There's so much music out there and it's so common so that it kind of just becomes a lot of noise. So like they're kind of unique and it's like, you know, very talented like young women in a genre that's kind of maybe...

So that dichotomy of having these young women who are doing heavy metal and stuff, that in itself is kind of unique. And then all these people are following this thing means that maybe they're really into the music. And then because they're so young, there's this idealism. They're just like, they don't really know anything else, right? Like we're like older. We've got all this shit in our head. Like all they know maybe is this thing. And it's so idealistic. And the world is their oyster. And it's just a start. Wow.

Maybe it's like the innocence of it all. The innocence. And once they grow up and they're 30 or 40, it won't be so innocent. And maybe they'll have ups and downs in their careers. It's crazy. As a teenager, you're calling the shots. You're doing what you want. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's powerful. Yeah. And I think also, just to add on, I'm thinking about it. It's the fact that it's not supposed to work. It's not supposed to work. But the fact that they got tens of thousands of people involved

in the palm of their hand. But why isn't it supposed to work? Like, I like to challenge that notion. Well, it's not supposed to work based off of what you're supposed to think about heavy metal, right? The general idea of heavy metal are dudes. It's like a biker. With some chicks, right? Long hair. Leather jackets, long hair. You know, very aggressive. Not like, kawaii. Good.

It's like the opposite. It's literally like the most opposite thing. Like, okay, think of it this way. What if Metallica went to like Japan and did like Hawaii shit? Like that shit would really not work. Yeah. But then, like I said, once again, yes, you're right. You see other passionate bands, passionate crowds working in unison. Maybe I would get emotional with that as well. Maybe. I don't know. But like I said, it's like a perfect storm of...

Not supposed to work, but it works. The youth, the professionalism, the passion, all of that together. Okay, so it is interesting, right? So there is something to it. You're not like crazy. So the Los Angeles Times said, and this was years ago,

that Babymetal is a Japanese concept group, and they're the most divisive thing in heavy metal now. Then there's another publication that says Babymetal isn't even metal. It's theater. The Japanese pop industry deconstructing post-millennial

metal and modern pop tropes and reconstituting them into a fully realized 360 degree entertainment experience. And not only that, Judas priests, Rob Halford performed with them like seven years ago. And he says, baby metal is the future of metal. Holy shit. Right. Okay. So Rob zombie, uh,

um, posted some photos of him with baby metal and then he got shit from some of his fans. And then, so he comes back and retorts, these three girls have more energy than 90% of the bands we play with. Hmm.

So there, I mean, there's something to what they're doing. Like they're reconstituting like culture in a very unique modern way, which is pretty cool. Right. Cause like, I think culture, like pop culture was driven very, very heavily by the West particular in particular the U S it. So it is cool to see like Japan, Korea, China starting to innovate and like take something that traditionally was a Western medium. And then like,

you know, changing the narrative a little bit. Yeah. And I think that's maybe where the divisiveness comes in to play. Is that like, they're kind of taking something that was born in the West and then, and then you have like the Asian countries kind of like owning it in their own way and then becomes divisive. Well, I,

I think it's also the... Yeah, but they're taking it over because they're making money off of it. I wouldn't say they're taking it over, but they're... But metal's taking over the world, Justin. But metalheads... They're taking over our fucking show. But I think even like metalheads in general, right? They just... Like to them, like the authenticity...

The authentic metal head or metal music is going to be talking, is going to be aggressive, and it's not going to be fucking kawaii, right? It's not going to be choreographed dancing. Because they don't want to be associated with it. No, it's anti. Metal is anti that. It's hardcore.

Yeah. Right? So that's why it's divisive. Yeah. And they're the only Japanese band to ever hit number one in the Billboard rock charts. Okay. So this brings me up to something I want to talk about. Right? And I almost get reminded of this topic, especially sometimes with you, Howie, back in your old days. Not now anymore. Okay. Because you're kind of a lame-o now. But back when you used to be cool. When you used to be cool. Like 1999. No, I almost had this...

How do I say this without sounding like an absolute asshole? You're going to sound like an asshole. You're going to sound like an asshole. You're going to throw me under the bus. No, no, no, no. Without sounding like I'm being an asshole. Okay. The thing with being cool and growing up, I had my moments where I was definitely not cool at all. Not part of the cool crowd. Moments? But I had...

Much of the time growing up, I was part of the quote-unquote cool crowd, let's say, in high school. In whose eyes? In everybody's eyes. Come on. So I feel like I've been on both sides of that in and out group, right? Both in the group, in group and out group. And...

My biggest thing with like people who get so stuck on like, oh, this isn't cool. Right. Or this isn't that or this isn't what I'm a part of are usually the people who are trying like the people who claim like they're too cool for school are usually the people who are doing the most right.

to try to be cool. You know what I'm saying? And that's not cool. Like, real coolness comes without effort. It's the lack... Like, at least to me, okay? This is my own opinion on the matter. Is the lack of...

effort, the lack of care. It's that like a truly cool person doesn't care if they're seen as cool or not by others. You know, they're not trying to be a part of the group desperately. That's not cool. That's desperate, right? And so many of the people that you see that kind of had this too cool for school attitude and you see that with a lot of like certain young kids these days too as in our time we did.

is that they adhere to a very, I don't know, I think they're very materialistic in that way where it's not materialistic. Like superficial in that way where they're like, oh, if he's not dressed cool,

you know, then I'm not, he's not cool. Or if he doesn't listen to the same music as I listen to, then he's not part of the cool crowd, right? And to me, like nothing can be more opposite of cool than someone who just thinks in those terms.

100%. But usually the people who think they're so cool are the people who are like that. So that's my gripe with it. It's like an elitist way of thinking. Exactly. But I feel like, because I've actually, we've talked about this, like I was sort of like that when I was younger. And one of the reasons why I broke down of why I probably was a little bit like that is a defense mechanism, right?

Right. It's a way of being able to associate with a certain type of person that I, I like, or I appreciate. And because I had, um,

experiences with others that were not like me that may have bullied me or that may have you know been assholes you know then for me it's like get the fuck out of here i'm just gonna you know stereotype you and just get out you know you're not cool period yeah so this is like a defense mechanism because when i was growing up for me as a quote-unquote my eye my eyes a cool kid i

We did skateboarding. We played rock music. We would listen to music that nobody else knew. We thought we were cool. In other people's eyes, they probably thought we were nerds. You know what I mean? But in our eyes, we were cool because you know why? For the people who knew us,

or knew about what we were into, we were sort of like forward thinking, right? So in that way, it's like- It's the same mechanism of wanting to be accepted. Yeah, exactly. You want it to be accepted in your crowd. Exactly. And not the mainstream crowd. And that's like kind of the silly thing of it all. It's silly. It's so silly. Because it's all the same thing. So silly. And it's like the people who think like, oh, that's too mainstream for me to like it. So I'm not going to- Like people dislike things just because it's mainstream. Right.

Yeah. Like it could be a great song. It could be a great movie. It can be a great whatever. Yeah. But the fact that it was so great that it became mainstream. Yeah. People will dislike it just on those, on those, on those, on that basis. And to me, like, that's not cool. Like if you're just gonna, if you're just gonna live your life like that,

Then you're just as desperate to be accepted than the people you're criticizing. It's a maturity thing as well, right? Just like what I just said. Old me, young me, should I say, if caught me listening to freaking Babymetal. Old Howie, we have to distinguish. Is it like the current Howie or old as in like... If old Howie knew that the future... If a young Howie knew that the old Howie was doing a podcast, he'd be like, oh my God. Oh my God. We're getting onto the podcast train, that bandwagon. Nothing could be...

So you were like very kind of snobby. I was snobby to a certain extent. But out of all the snobby elitists, I was actually the least... I would consider not the most snobby. I'm pretty open-minded in that way. But...

Yeah, I was happy though. So let me ask you this. I have a few things on my mind. So what if you met us like back in the day? Yeah. Like let's say because I'm kind of not very cool. Yeah. So back in my like fashion days? You would have just like because like back then I was like even more nerdy. Yeah. And like. I'll tell you

I don't know. Skinny, wore glasses. I mean, I would probably, like, depends on what the scenario is. If we're out, like, at a bar or a club and you're, like, trying to talk to me, I'd be like, yo, how you doing? But you want to hang out? I'm like, no, but I'll get you a beer. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just going to go over there. So you're a nice guy, but inside you were judgmental as fuck. Judgmental as fuck. Judgmental as fuck.

What a dick. The question is, though, the relevant question is, how much of that do we unconsciously carry now into our lives now? You know, like, obviously, like, I think none of us will want to admit we're anything like that now. But like, how much of that subconscious, those old habits do we still have somewhere in there? I don't think I do. Really? Yeah.

So you feel like you're just like completely. Am I not sitting with you guys right now? Yeah, but I balance out the coolness. Eric may not be cool, but I'm so cool that it balances out. No, like it totally disproves everything you're saying. We're like the two fucking coolest people in Shanghai. You are literally, you're lucky to be in the room. Ha!

He hasn't lost any of this stuff. This is just to him when he's with the cool kids. But then when he's out there, he's like, do you know who I am? You know I have a podcast? Well, that's interesting too. When we first met, it was also under some interesting conditions. Would you say we were the cool crowd back then in Shanghai? Back in like 2009, 2010? Or do you think we thought we were so cool, but other people were just watching us party and be like, those assholes. Yeah.

Let me answer that first. So I was actually, because when I first moved here, I was still a little bit of, I still had a little bit left over of that old identity of when I was in New York. Yeah, because we didn't like each other when we first met, right? Not because of what music taste you had. It was because of your attitude. So...

But I was still listening to the type of music I listened to. I still dressed a certain way. And so I still had a little bit left over of that identity. He was pretty artsy-fartsy back then. A little bit. Yeah, he was a little too cool for school time. I remember him being artsy-fartsy. But then I remember partying and dancing to really mainstream hip-hop music and thinking, oh my god.

If my, if all my friends knew that this is what I do all the time. Black eyed peas. Oh my God. Jokingly. Right. But at the same time, a little bit of part of me was like, dude, I would not have done this back in the States. It's going to be a good night. Right. And here I am like singing along. Let me give it, let me give an example. So I have a friend. It's going to be a good, good night. Oh my God. It's taking us back to that time.

So I have a friend who moved to China many years ago, like 10 years ago, who was part of the music scene that I was in. And so he knew, like, he's another Chinese guy. He's the only other Chinese guy I ever, like, talked to. And he was also in the band. And so he said, Yo, Howie, I'm moving to China. I was like, are you really? Oh, shit. And you met him, Eric. And...

I was like, oh, shit. Nice. You know, come on over. And then he was like, what are you doing now? Are there any cool like DJ places? Like, you know, cool, like, like underground. Yeah, exactly. Totally, totally, totally. And I'm like, um, you take up the muse. I'm like, um, yeah, there are. He's like, yeah. Oh, you're going to introduce me to some places. I'm like, I don't really hang out those places. He's like, oh, OK. So, you know, what do you do?

I'm like, yeah, black eyed peas. I listen to black eyed peas. I'm like, little lady Gaga, you know? He's like, who are you? He's like, oh, okay. Okay, you know? I'm like, yeah, you'll understand once you get here, right? And I remember a couple of years later, after he moved here,

And he's like, he's one of those guys that would be, he's much more hardcore than I was. Much more hardcore in the scene, right? And so he's one of those guys that I could never imagine doing what I was doing, right? And cut to freaking...

Oh, he was. Fist bumping. No, he was still in the scene. Like he found the scene somehow. Like it's in his blood, right? So he would be able to enjoy like those moments and have fun. And it's like one of those things I feel like, I think we talked about it once. It was like, we're older now.

Right. And it's sort of like, we don't need to play those identity politics anymore. Right. And maybe when you're younger, you want to kind of like feel that legitimacy almost for what you like or what you're into. But when you get older, you realize that it goes out the window unless you're still living in the past, which are still plenty of friends that are living in the past. Still. That song came out in 2009. What? I got a feeling. Oh, really? Dude, that was like, it was epic. Yeah. So Eric went to Eric. It was like,

Yeah. It was life. To me, that was like the artsy-fartsy stuff. That was him upgrading his coolness. For us, it was us downgrading our coolness just to have fun. He was proud to blast it. Because in his mind, it's like people think I'm so cool for blasting this. Blasting this. I thought it was like I was listening to the Black Eyed Peas. I finally broke in. That was really interesting for me to realize that it's a growth thing, I think. Yeah. I mean, because that's an interesting thing because that's so...

I don't know. I can't speak for everybody, right? But I think it's so natural growing up through adolescence. Identity is such a big part of your life, right? What do you associate yourself with? Are you, oh, I'm a skater. I'm part of the skateboard crew, right? Or I'm part of the metalhead crew or hip-hop crew, whatever it is. It's like if I were to describe, I'm trying to put myself back in the day again.

You see those people that were through style, through swag, they have this thing that epitomizes that genre of style, right? And they could be sort of, I don't know, trendsetters even, right? And they're the ones that you say that are just automatically cool, probably really open-minded and just doing their thing, right?

So those guys, yeah, they're like the leaders, you can call them, right? But then once in a while in the scene, you'll meet these people that dress as jocks or dressed as whatever, but they know all about the freaking coolest music or they have open mentality. And I met those people. I'm like, oh, damn. They challenged my way of thinking. I'm like, oh, yeah, you're cool. Okay, you're cool. Well, that's, okay, again, not to sound like an asshole.

But that's how I feel about myself a lot of times, like at my age now, right? Because at my age now, if you just looked at me, you wouldn't know anything about my past, right? I dress very plainly. I don't have any style, right?

at all but if i was to go and mingle with a crowd of young kids today that's like really into like underground djing in the hip-hop scene right and like think that's the cool thing i i grew up on that stuff like i was a big part of that scene back in new jersey and new york like growing up but they would never know that and so they would just judge me on my appearance and be like you're you're not a cool guy

At least that's how I'm reading it. Exactly. That's what you think. That's a narrative you're feeding yourself. Yeah. It's probably like the midlife crisis, right? You just don't feel like you're part of the cool group anymore. So what is the benefit of having this notion of cool? Because this term itself, I think, is still pretty cool. There's a lot of terms that maybe 50 years ago were the hip terms of the time. But it seems like the word cool, and maybe we're not that cool for saying this, but it's

cool has aged pretty well. People still use the word cool to describe cool things, which is kind of unusual because usually the words just fall out of favor. What do you think the benefits are of like having this category of cool? What does it do for us? Well, I think, okay, I think you bring up a really good point in that also culturally, is there a difference? Because there might be a difference in what cool in the way we're using the word cool means here in China.

Like they might, they might not have that same idea of what cool is. I get the feeling cool here is like, this is Zhuang cool. Like you're quiet, you're kind of reserved and just kind of keep it. Like, I feel like that's kind of like the definition of cool here. When we're saying cool, it's a whole different meaning. I think, I think that that definition of cool is not only cultural, but it's also generational, right? Like,

Like our definition of cool, us three sitting here now are not only different based off of our interests growing up, but also our age as compared to somebody that's like 20 years old, 15, 20 years old. Right. A perfect example, behavior. Right. So certain behaviors are like, you know, cool kids do, cool kids don't do. Right. Kind of thing. I remember talking to this one friend recently who was in the States. He's talking about his daughter. His daughter is like 16.

like 16 years old, 15, 16 years old. And he was like, I don't understand that generation because she's on some platform I never heard of, like a social media platform. Right. And, but there's like likes and dislikes and stuff like that. And he was saying she is constantly disliking content. Right. And so he asked her, like, why do you keep disliking things? You know, he's like, I don't know. It's kind of cool. Wait, so it's cool. So you dislike it. He's like, yeah. Why? I don't know.

it's like it's like this generation wait hold on so the content itself is cool or she's like the act of disliking things is a cool thing to do there is no clear-cut answer because i asked him i was like is she into the things like that she's disliking he's like i think so kind of like she says yes and no sometimes she does sometimes she doesn't but there's no rhyme or reason for the dislike and then so he asked her is like is that what you guys do it's like yes we all we all do that

But it makes sense in a way, right? It's like, you don't want to admit it. So like your friend, like, it's like dancing to, you know, to poker face, poker face. Right. And then he's like, he's, he secretly thinks it's cool. But if you ask him, like, is it cool? It's like, nah, it's not fucking cool. Right. So it's like, people do that all the time. Yeah. I think so. Right. Cause you don't want to admit it for whatever reason, but you actually think it's kind of cool because I think it's like, if you have a reaction to something, like,

Just the reaction itself shows some type of feeling towards things. But I want to go back to kind of honing down on the different definitions of cool or definition of cool because I think that's really important because there's the cultural aspect of, okay, what does cool, how is cool defined here in China versus how is cool defined in the states where we're from and the way we're using it?

Because like this reminds me of a conversation. I don't know if you remember this, Howie, but back when we were doing Rockslip, right? With James. Shout out to James Wu. We had him on the show before, a mutual friend of ours. And we were talking about, because we were designing clothing at the time, right? We're designing a brand and we're like, oh, like we were talking, we're using cool as like this idea of like the look and feel of some marketing thing we were doing. I forget what it was.

And me and you, we're on the same wavelength in terms of cool. It's like edgy. It's rock and roll or whatever it was at the time. And then James just came out of left field and totally blew that definition out of the water in terms of what he thought was cool. And it was very shocking. And we had to really wrap our minds around, oh…

people have different definitions of what's cool. Like, like, like truly, like it wasn't like he was like, like, like pretending to be something like he honestly thought because to him, like,

Like all that underground shit was not cool at all to him. It was like the popular sports jock guy in high school, like with the flipped up collar and like, and dating the cheerleader, right. The captain of the football team or the, you know, the, the classic stereotype, like to him, that was cool. And the main, like listening to the mainstream top 10 radio hits, that was cool. Yeah.

And he really believed that. And I bet he still believes that to this day. There's a lot of different definitions of cool. I wanted to say that. I think when we're saying cool, we can't just say cool. We really need to define it. 100%. There's so many different types. Even if I go back to high school, what I thought was cool with my rock and roll friends and...

you know, smoking marijuana and stuff like that in the back, the jocks probably thought we were losers. Right. And they thought they were cool. And then you have like these other like cheerleaders being like, Oh, the jocks are really cool. Oh, they're so cool. Right. You know what I mean? And, but then to us, like, that's not cool. Right. So it's all depends on the, the tribe you're in. Right. Well, there's this, I think there's a notion of like what James is saying, like there's like popularity, right? So that you can equate,

Some people might think like being cool is like popularity because popularity gets you stuff, especially when you're like in high school. It gets you things because when you're popular, you get invited to stuff. And if you're that type of person and you want to be accepted, then it gets you that. And then also like, you know, if you're dating, there's a benefit to like being popular.

I can also see it from your perspective. It's like a counter reaction to popularity. Like, I don't want that shit. Like, that's stupid. Like, it's meaningless. I think something cool actually has intrinsic meaning that's outside of like the social influence it's giving me, right? But I also think that you can even step back even further and say like, independent of what we would judge to be cool, like, what is the notion of cool?

And so like, if you, if I'm just looking at one particular definition, I'm just looking at Wikipedia and,

So it talks about coolness or being cool. First of all, it describes it as an aesthetic. And what it means with that kind of fancy term is that there is a notion of beauty or taste. So there's some judgment in it, right? If you kind of like step back to like, and then what does it describe? So like you're basically judging something and saying if it's good or bad, right? And it's saying that in an attitude, right?

A behavior, an appearance, a style. So there's different kinds of things that you can judge. And then it's saying that something as cool as generally admired. Okay, I think that's a good definition because then essentially you're saying it's good.

Like you like it, right? There's validation. And then when you say something is good as an aesthetic, then there's the taste element, which is like your preference. So like, I think it's nice to ground something cool as saying, okay, it's something that can be observed, like a physical appearance of behavior. And it's generally like a good thing. You're admired for it. Okay. Then that's a starting point. Yeah, I know. That's actually very enlightening. Like there's a lot of nuance to it, but to sum it up, it's like,

is cool anti-establishment or is cool the establishment, right? Yeah, for sure. And that's why I feel like going back to what we were saying earlier, I think that's why the quote-unquote cool kids that we were referring to earlier in this conversation have such a high sensitivity to anything that's remotely mainstream because that represents the establishment. And their whole identity of coolness is anti-the-establishment.

You know, like that's the basis of like, I mean, that's how rock and roll was founded. That's how metal was founded. That's how punk was founded. It was all founded on this root basic principle of being anti counterculture.

anti the establishment, right? Rebelling against all that. Anti-culture. Rebelling, rebelling. Yeah, rebelling against all that. Starting something new because- Rebelling against the status quo. Yeah, because the old, the last one got too big, too popular, too mainstream. And maybe it's also a little bit of like, you couldn't find your impact and purpose in that. And so like, people are like, okay, if I can't join you and like,

because it's already existing. You can't be a leader in it. There's also personal interest in saying, okay, fuck it. I'm going to do something on my own. It might be because of the intrinsic aesthetic with it, or it might just be like, I want to do something on my own, start my own movement because I want to gain power. So then you have people who are thinking differently about what is cool. You have people who think, oh, who think the establishment is the cool thing, right? The mainstream thing is a cool thing. And then you have obviously people who feel like

No. Rebelling against that is the cool thing to do. And then, I mean, it just ties into your identity. Especially at a young age when all this stuff is like really kind of front of mind for you, right? It becomes like… It feels like it's important to you in terms of what you stand up for, what you identify for, what you're fighting for. Your values. Yeah. But like to what you were saying, Howie, it's like as we get older and as you mature…

You find out holding on to these things is not... Doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. You have people who still hold on to these things, but you find out life is just a life, man. It's like no one cares. No one gives a shit. Yeah, hence I was able to enjoy Babymetal. Okay, so going back to that Babymetal thing, I don't know what it... But I wanted to bring this up because I came across this video on Billy Billy the other day, and I kind of just got obsessed with it.

I think they're from Japan too, but they're hip hop. So it's like these little girls, but they're like hardcore 90s bing bap hip hop.

Yeah. And one girl like talks and like in a raps and like a really like kawaii voice, but their lyrics and their, the style is just like, it's like Wu Tang. Okay. It's like straight up nineties. I want to, I wanted to show you this real quickly. So I think the group is called, I'm not sure whether, I think they're from Japan. I could be wrong, but it's called XG. And then it's like a group of, it's like, it's like literally a little girl's version of Wu Tang. So we simultaneously fell into this trap of kawaii Japanese music.

I don't know. But this was literally like last week I got into this. What are the chances? I'm not going to comment. Eric pulls out another one. No, I'm not. I just don't know what kind of direction this is going to go into. But anyways. Watch this music video. Watch this. Watch this.

This is just two of the members. Oh, they rap in English. They're from Japan or are they? I think so. This is just two of the members. Are you sure it's Japanese? They do Japanese later on. I'm not sure about anything with this group. I don't know.

I just know there's more members because another video with the whole crew and this is just two other members. I have a suspicion of why you guys are watching this but- She's like the method man of like our group. Her name is Harvey. I mean they're pretty good. They're Korean dude. Oh yeah, that's Korean. Oh, they're Korean? I'll get Korean. Yeah, Korean.

They probably go to like the Korean American school. I'm not surprised that they're Korean, right? But it's kind of disturbing. They're like on a school bus, Justin. But this is like a trending video on Billy Bits. No comment. But this is like fitting with the baby metal thing. Except that's metal. This is hip hop. But it's the same kind of thing. But no, no. They're just rapping.

They're just rapping. What was baby metal doing? They're playing baby metal and dancing, but freaking dancing with costumes and like little, like little girls. What do you think they're wearing? They're wearing costumes. What the fuck is this shit? That's not costumes. That's fucking costume. They think that's style. Yeah. That's hip hop costume to the hip hop genre, but it's baby metal is doing the metal. Yeah. But, but, but what I'm trying to say is that there is like, there's, there's like, there's no absurdity in this. Well,

You know, this isn't absurd to you. Why is that absurd? No, please point out where the absurdity is. This is more absurd to me than Babymetal. Babymetal makes sense to me. How is this absurd? It's just girls that are rapping.

It's just girls that are rapping. It's pretty absurd. How? It's girls that are rapping. The both thing is, the thing with Babymetal, I think the shock was not only are they doing kawaii and metal, but it's also like how young these girls are doing it. This is the same shock factor. No, ready? There is no dance choreography in Heavy Metal. Babymetal did it. There is no cutesy kawaii dresses and stuff like that in Heavy Metal. They did that.

Mostly girls don't really do heavy metal, but if they do, they're really like rock and roll, like tough. They're freaking kawaii. What are their lyrics like, by the way? Give me chocolate. I want to eat chocolate, but I'm too full. I don't want to eat chocolate. Like, it's like ridiculous. How can you bring that up and say that? I don't know. This feels like the, like kind of the same deal to me.

I don't know you anymore, Justin. Just a different genre. I don't know you anymore. Because they're catering towards the hip hop genre, but M.L.'s catering towards like the metal genre. Yeah, but they're just like, they're fashionable and they're like girls. They're not. Okay. We just talked 45 minutes. On Babymetal. Babymetal. On Babymetal. I am curious, like, let's go to NBA. I think we have some listeners. How do you pronounce this? Wembenyama?

Victor, Wemba, and Yama. Wemba and Yama go into the Spurs. Yeah. There's been conversation about the past MVPs. The past five. It's been Giannis, Joker, and Embiid, right? For the past five years, have all been European players. The past five years, right? Top players in the NBA, all European players, right? And there's talk about like, okay, why is that? Why are there so many good players?

humble European players, though Doncic may be not so humble. But Embiid could be considered maybe. Giannis for sure. Joker for sure. Right? Now, Wemba Nyama getting first pick. Yes. So...

There's this whole culture idea, right, of American culture versus European culture or international culture. Why are, like, American culture, you got Zion and Ja Morant and all this, like, drama, right? And, like, other superstars. You do have Curry, though. Curry's buttoned up. Curry's buttoned up. Lillard? He's buttoned up. But just, like, I feel like you can have, like, we have to generalize a little bit. Of course, you have anomalies. You have certain people that stand out that are not, like, the generalizations that are

I'm about to say, but you have Americans that are a bit more self-centered, a little bit more about, you know, like certain cultural aspects that are unique to America, whether it's gun culture or porn culture or whatever, right? That have kind of dictated certain behaviors for certain players, right? And, but then in the European players, you have a lot of them sort of trend towards, you know, I'm here for the game. It's a team sport, right?

You know what I mean? It's a lot less drama. I just don't think we have enough, as Eric Owens likes to say, data points for the European players. Because European players are the minority in the NBA, just as a number, right? So if we were to go into the European leagues...

Whereas pretty much all European players, where we kind of see the same behaviors and a relatively similar percentage of behaviors with like people who are doing like stupid shit versus like people who are really buttoned up and have a great image. You know, there might be that same kind of thing going on. It's just that we don't have that many European players coming in. And there is an argument to be said that it's actually the Ja Morant or the Zion Williamson's that are the anomaly. Oh, okay.

Right? Because we remember the moments where they're waving a gun on Instagram. Like that stands out and we make a big story out of that. Well, first of all, Zion didn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't laugh at that. Because Zion has a lot of sexual stuff coming out. So they have different like scandal type things, right? So are the scandals the exception or are the scandals the norm? Kyrie Irving.

There's another one that's... But that's not really a scam. Okay, hold on. You know, that's just him doing like people... I mean, that's not a scandal. Yeah, okay. Because you have the face of the NBA like LeBron James who's dealt with his career like so...

You know what I mean? Like he's such a, has like such a clean reputation. Okay. So hold on. Let me like, let's, let's talk about this. I think there's a lot of good points in here. Okay. So first of all, I'm making some statements. They might not a hundred percent be true, but like, I think, you know, like we can sanity check them. Right. So most of the players in the NBA are from the U S right. Like, I mean, that's pretty certain. Okay.

Okay. So, um, so if you wanted to look like at a parallel, then you'd probably look at like European football. That would be a good one to compare against. If you want to look at like the number of like scandalous players for whether sexual or guns or whatever that reason. Right. So that would be one data point. Right. Okay. Yeah.

Um, number two, like back to what Howie was saying is that, is there something about like European culture versus America, like European, the, the, the stereotype or perception is like, they're more team oriented versus like us players. Like there's more playground shit, like they're more individual. Like, so there's that, that thing that we want to like, look if there's differences, right.

And then the third piece is like, well, Europe doesn't really have as many guns. So like, if you do get in trouble with guns, it's going to be an American player, not like a European player, most likely just because the Europeans weren't exposed to that kind of shit growing up. There's like less of that, you know? So if we're saying like,

Number one is like playing style. What style is most conducive to winning a championship and MVP? Because those are two different things, but they're correlated. Because if you can win championships, you're probably more likely to win MVPs, but not guaranteed, right? And then the second piece is like how, like, so one is just performance overall. Is there something about European culture and how they're trained and their academies that just, it's like more team oriented than individual oriented.

And then the second piece is like, do more scandals happen like with US players in general than for European players? Yeah. So there's like some pretty interesting questions there. And then it differs by sports. Because if you look at like baseball, it's like dominated by Latin American people. I don't know. I think it's just like, it's a topic that some people talk about on traditional broadcasting networks, for example. Well, like who? ESPN? Yeah, ESPN. What do they say?

Depends on who's hosting, right? But I think the general topic is that the European players are taking over the NBA. They're a lot more team-oriented. They're a lot less drama. Okay, let me state kind of a thing that

Doesn't totally prove this or anything, but I think it's correlated. So I think this is pretty an interesting point. So European players are clearly at the top of the league. I don't know what the breakdown is. It'd be interesting to see what percentage of the NBA overall is European.

But, like, they're literally, like, the best. Well, you got Luka, Giannis, and now Joe Joker. Yeah, there's no question anymore, right? Like, they can play at the highest level. And, in fact, they're, like, dominating, like, the superstar level now. Arguably, right? Easily, yeah. Now, look at, like, football. Like, what fucking U.S. player is, like, in Europe, like, dominating the sports over there? Like, no one. Soccer football or football? Yeah, like, soccer football. Like, zero. Yeah. So, like, the point being that take a sport that's, like...

the biggest sport in that particular region of the world. So in the U S would be like basketball. And then the Europeans come over and they can like dominate at the highest, the highest level. Then you look at football, you know, soccer, football, which is like, obviously like even bigger than basketball in general, I think. Right. I don't know if it's a bigger sport globally, but it, it seems like football. Football.

Because basketball is pretty big now too. Football is still number one. But basketball is not small. By far. Basketball is not small when you look internationally. But okay, football is number one. Like how many fucking good US players? Like zero. Women's team. Women's team has some. But that's a whole culture, like totally different. But men's team, yeah, sure. For example, no one. But historically speaking in the NBA, you have so many European players that were like dominant or at least iconic. And then if you look at them, they're all kind of like,

buttoned up and just like, you know, good players, usually all around players and like, you know what I mean? But I mean, to be fair, we are comparing one country, America, to an entire continent. Yeah. Right? So like, you have an entire continent of countries who are putting players forward versus just one country. I mean...

I mean, I think that needs to be considered as well. I think one of the dialogues, I really can't go too in depth with it, but maybe you guys can chime in with some ideas. But one of the dialogue points of Europeans such as Giannis or even Joker coming in with this sort of like humble personality and, you know, it's because their sort of international roots come

come from more of an immigrant type of family, or if you're from a smaller country like Serbia, you're not exactly coming from the most well-off family. But the difference between that and let's say American is still a culture of the working class family trying to get by, as opposed to maybe in the States, there is a conversation of, okay, are they working class or are they trying to like get a shortcut to, you know, to success through other means? Yeah.

What I was catching for it was like this American individualism thing is now...

maybe hurting performance of players. And then this perception that like European players are more team oriented, you know, is helping them perform. Is that what you're saying? I'm trying to beat around the bush to talk about the immigrant mentality, right? So it's like the working class family, that's the immigrant family. I don't know. Okay. So I'm going to kind of take what you're saying, but kind of flip it a little bit because I,

I don't know if we can really speak on the European immigrant mentality. I don't know anything about the Europeans. Because they're not really immigrants. So, I mean, they come over here. Exactly. Like fucking like Rumbunyama. He's getting paid like millions of fucking dollars. It ain't no immigrant story. They're not actually immigrating. They're just playing in the American League, right? Just in NBA. But I think the question what we can kind of ask is, okay, American individualism.

Whatever, just as a term, right? Is America exceptional at that compared to most other countries or not? I mean, because I think sometimes we fall into that stereotype. I know I do, of being like, oh, it's the American exceptionalism. Everything is much more based on the individual, the individuality there. It's my own personal rights and freedoms. It's less communal and more focused on the individual, right? On a whole.

And I certainly felt that growing up and I enjoyed that growing up, that aspect of America. But is America exceptional in that way? Or is that also pretty common in other countries throughout the world? We're just not so much aware of that because that's not so much a thing here in China. We know that for sure. But, you know, the world, it's a big place. There's a lot of other countries, you know, is that is that is that unique to America in terms of the level in which they take it there?

Or not? Well, maybe another speculative question is, has the US and the people in the US, have they just become more arrogant and less humble over time? I mean, we can't really speak to some of these things. But when you think about people, like the stereotype of people in the Midwest and they're hardworking and stuff like that, it changes generation by generation. But have we reached a point in the US where people are just less humble than they were before? And then that's kind of like...

tipping point before the downfall because I don't think the US was always like fucking American exceptionalism. It used to not be like that. At what point did this term even... It's usually brought up if I would speculate it would be like when you're over the hill and then you get really cocky.

It's like, well, yeah, when you reach the mountaintop. So I think certainly when we were living there, that was very much a part of the culture. Now, was it always part of the mountain? Of course not. I mean, America was a struggling country nation for a long time until like, you know, I think probably after World War II. And then that's really when America started lifting off. And then you kind of see this kind of pride and exceptionalism because America

America had every right to be because it really was the undisputed number one. But does it help? That's the thing. It's like, if we think about this parallel between sports and nations, you want to be on top.

in general, right? Like no one wants to be on the bottom. Because you almost draw this parallel too between like what things we're talking about in sports. Yeah, yeah. It's a great analogy. Because it's like, it's like evolution too, right? Like you want to be on, like no one wants to be on the bottom. You might not want to be on the top, top, top, but you certainly don't want to be on the bottom because you don't have access to any of the resources. So the question then is like,

Like, what are the factors that go into success in general? Like, whether you're an athlete, whether you're a citizen, whether you're a country, like, what's going to lead to more positive outcomes, you know, for what you're considering? Like, that's important. Like, why do we even talk about American exceptionalism? How does that help us?

become better. It's interesting. It might help people get elected, but I don't actually think it helps the US get better by talking about how good we are. No, I think it does the very opposite of that. Yeah. But that's the rhetoric though. We're entering another campaign cycle right now, right? In America. So I can guarantee you, right? You're going to see all the candidates ring that same bell

America's great. We're the best. Freedom. Blah, blah, blah. And it's all that same rhetoric that galvanizes the crowd. And let's not pick on America because you can say that about a lot of countries. If you were to galvanize a crowd, you want to boost up that country's pride. We see that happening here too. So,

But I'm 100% on board with you, Eric, in that I feel it has the opposite effect because then what that does is it lowers your guard.

It makes you less humble. It makes you think you're entitled to things. You're not as hungry anymore. Yeah, you're not as hungry. It's the old adage of the boxer that wins it all, right? Like, you know, we saw this in the Rocky movies, right? You win the title, you're champion. You have all the money in the world. You're now moving into the mansions. Meanwhile, your competitor is still in the gutter working out like hungry, right? And then they're going to kill you in the ring.

when you're fighting them because you get softened up. So I think I agree with you in that the sense of like any rhetoric that kind of tells you you're so good, it lowers your guard and makes you less hungry. Well, if we apply this to like go back and zoom into like the European players, like they're just, I think they're less externally cocky for sure. And they're probably like pretty hungry because they're going into another league. And I think with soccer and football, like the, you know, the dynamic is different because there's just not that many, you are like,

Like it's not like the top sport in the U.S. Okay, I think you're hitting onto something. Maybe it really is like they're coming in as outsiders.

Right. So coming to America to an American sport, NBA. Right. Because if you want to talk about football, footballers in Europe are crazy. They can get crazy. There's a lot of scandals going on over there as well. And so, yeah, you relate it to NBA in America. And then you have the Europeans come to an American sport in America. And they're the minority by far. And even if they do become dominant, they're still like, I guess, in their own personal way.

keeping themselves in check by continuously pushing themselves further. So then it becomes a little bit different when compared to the locally grown heroes that are a little bit more extravagant. They're a little bit more loud, obnoxious, or scandalous. You have American players, not just like the famous ones that are over the hill, but you have young American, let's say, basketball players that aren't famous that

that come to the CBA, that go to the Taiwan leagues, right? They play there. So, and then, so they're an outsider in that respect, right? Just in reverse. Now they're an outsider. Do we see them also like, also like as team oriented and like, you know, have that chip on their shoulder kind of deal? Like, is it, is it the same kind of behavior? You know, because we can look into that. We just haven't.

Because there are players going both ways. It's not just players going into the NBA. There are players that can't make it to the NBA or that were formerly in the NBA coming over to other leagues in Europe, in China, Taiwan, all over the world. The specific outlier that we're looking at, though, is like... Dwight Howard was like... Yeah. But I think the outlier that we're... He was just throwing up threes constantly. It was funny. There is a specific outlier with...

like European basketball players hitting the top of the league in the NBA. So it's, it's sports specific. Like if we're kind of going back to like more specificity and less general, like,

You got to look at basketball, which is, and it's not some low level sport. It's one of the most popular elite sports in the world. Right. So it's a big thing. And then like European players are coming in and like literally dominating at the top of the game. The only other parallel would be like baseball.

which as I mentioned earlier like Latin American players have come in and like Cuban and Puerto Rican well Dominican Republic oh yeah DR yeah Venezuela like it's all of Latin America yeah yeah yeah like

less Central America, but like South America, right? So like what's going on there that's causing, what are the factors that are allowing these people to like kind of outperform? I think that's a really interesting question. And I think it's less so about the local players not performing, right? I don't think it's about like there's something wrong with US culture and people are selfish or whatever. I don't think that's the explanation. I think it's more about what is it

what's unique about European players and the Latin American baseball players that are causing them to perform at like the highest level. That's the question. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, why is that? I know. Because like, like when you think of a baseball, you think America, you think that's like the iconic American sport, right? But it's dominated. But even, but even Japanese baseball players, there's a handful of dominant Japanese baseball players to come in. Right. Like dominant. And I think that it actually speaks to the influence of America. I actually think in some ways it's like, like because the U S is exceptional, like,

at exporting culture that basketball, well, actually basketball was invented. Was it by Canada? Yeah.

Was basketball invented by Canada? That's the claim. That is the claim. Okay, okay. So anyways, North America, right? There's America in the word. So it was invented in this part of the world, but we made it popular. Americans made it popular, right? And we made basketball and baseball so popular and so attractive that other parts of the world wanted to do it, and they wanted to do it in America first.

because that's where you can make all the money. So I would argue that it's also like, there's this American dream that like, maybe what's driving the success is like, there's an American dream and everyone wants to be a part of it too. So it's not just like, there's something special about like fucking Serbia. It's a different mentality, right? Yeah, it's like Serbia. So it's really interesting. Is it a team thing? Or it's like, these people want to make their mark and because their continent is so team oriented and there's not as much,

monetary opportunity. Where are you going to make more fucking money? In Venezuela and the baseball league there? In Serbia and the basketball league? So the biggest stage is in the US and arguably we've done something right to do that. That's really interesting then when you think about it that way. I don't know. I mean, money obviously draws talent, right? And breeds talent. And fame. But then that also applies to all the American athletes too. You know what I mean? So...

Like I get what you're saying, but that doesn't change the conversation.

Because the money aspect, it's available there for whoever's performance time. What I'm saying is the American players are going to be here no matter what. But why aren't all the American players choosing soccer and then going to Europe? It's because there's a lot of money and fame here. So growing up, they don't even get into it. Because America is a small place. It's only like 300 million people. All of Europe is 300 million people. All of Latin America. I mean, we outpunch our weight as a country.

So there is an exceptional aspect. So I'm talking from both sides of my mouth. However, we're attracting the best of the best all over the world. That should speak to some of the strategy of how the US should play as well. It's like we shouldn't close our borders.

because if we continue to be a magnet for the best talent in the world, for whether it's sports or science or technology or, you know, whatever, like that's the only way America is going to continue to be great is if we get basically the best people from all over the world. Right. And that's how any country becomes great. You attract the best and most talented people. Cause you don't have that many, you have much less great people. And like, so anyone who's like trying to argue against that, it's like America is going to suffer because

it's just a totally different mentality if you're coming in it's like even being in Shanghai you got local Shanghainese you know doing their thing here and then you got people coming in from other cities and they're hustling hustling all of the foreigners are fighting their way up yeah hustling you know what I mean and it's just a different mentality not saying the Shanghainese don't hustle but it's just it's different it's just different

How is it different? I'm asking that honestly because I don't know. I feel like because it's not your home, right? It's like you have more at stake. If you fall, you have to go back with the tail between your legs. Going back to the whole immigrant mentality you were talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's a different mentality.

Like you're fighting. Yeah. It's not a China, US or anything. It's like, where are the big places that have powerful economies and opportunities and people. And then like other people like come over and then they got to, they got to work their ass even harder. So it's really interesting when you see like,

foreigners come to China and also have that immigrant dynamic. - Yeah, I think it's just very different. Not saying that Americans doing American things have this sort of cushion underneath them so that when they fall, it's gonna be padded,

But what I'm saying is that when you do come in... I think that padding is eroding now and people are feeling it there. So I would think that that'd be very unfair. I'm not saying you're... Because I totally get what you're saying, Howie. I'm just saying going forward, if we're sticking with this idea of this like quote unquote padding, this cushion of like being in your native place, especially if your native place is like...

really well off economically, socially, culturally. The top. Yeah, you guys have made it. This padding, for sure there is that padding there, but that padding now, I don't think is relevant now for a lot of, especially middle class people in America. I think that padding, and I think that's what spawned a lot of

that rhetoric and that sentiment of, you know, of anti-immigration. I think that's one of the reasons why Trump was so popular is that because a lot of the middle class there were feeling like, wait a minute, wait a minute, this whole kind of white privilege thing, this whole padding that everyone is saying, like, that's not really the truth in reality anymore. Like, I'm not saying that as a fact, I'm just saying that's what they're saying. Right. And,

And that's how they're feeling. So I think it'd be unfair for us just to assume that there's this padding still there. Because I think it is eroding. And I don't feel people are still feeling that padding is strong. As when we were growing up there, you know? Yeah, and let's say that conditions are getting worse, there's less padding. It's like how many people in the US are saying, okay, I'm going to pack up and move to another country and hustle. Well, it's not even conditions. Well, maybe conditions are getting worse, but it doesn't even have to be that. It could just be...

be purely because there's more competition now, like we were saying. So there's more people coming in. There's less spots. There's more competition to get those spots from all over the world because everyone's flooding in. So what kind of padding is there for you now? Like the competition is so fierce.

that you can't just rest on your laurels and you're not just competing against the people coming into the u.s you're competing against the dude in china that's like the best of the best from those countries because it's global but just think about what you just said i think there's like a sort of like an order to it because i i abstractly speaking if if i was locally homegrown right my first reaction is yeah i got my padding let's just say let's just call it that for now

I got my padding. Oh, shit. No, we got all these people coming in. I got to up my game. I don't have my padding. Oh, shit. Right? It's step one, step two. I'm coming in from outside. There is no step one. I go directly to step two. Does that make sense? So it's like, that's what I'm saying. It's like the mentality is different. When you're stepping in from away territory, going into the home turf,

You have a different mentality coming in. There's no even concept of that padding. Yes. Exactly. So that's what I'm thinking. It happens everywhere though. Like YD. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. YD. Exactly. I don't have my home. I'm renting an apartment. Right. I have no padding quote unquote of home even. Right. I'm here. I'm here.

trying to bust my ass and make it in the best city in the country is never gonna make you happy that's the fucking thing is like no matter how much patent like like unless you give me like a billion dollars of padding yeah then i'll be fucking happy well we talk about all this all the time and like when dino was here like you you you uh you were talking about a quote that you read like soft times make for uh like soft people hard times i don't know what the exact quote was

Tough times create strong men. Strong men create easy times. Easy times create weak men. Weak men create tough times. And then around and around it goes, right? That was obviously written by a man from 1950, but yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it probably still applies, man, right? I mean, that's...

That's universal. Okay, let me ask you this, like a more of a personal question, right? So where in your life are you creating tougher conditions for yourself to be able to grow? I don't know. All I know is that this idea of hard times, soft times is something I've always personally struggled with because like, I feel like I am, like we're all somewhere in that loop, right? Wherever we are in that loop may vary, right?

But like my father was a product of tough times, but he made it. And then he created relatively soft times for me. The easy times. Yeah. Like I have to be, I have to admit that, right? Like I, like to be an honest adult, I have to admit that. Like I did not grow up in the gutter.

I did not grow up in an environment where I had to worry about my next meal, about my parents making rent so they can keep the heat on in the house. I didn't grow up in that hardcore environment. I really struggled like that. I have to reflect on myself. And to Eric's point, to be mindful of that and not to fall into the trap of,

of becoming too soft because of that. I think there's some unavoidable impact that will have on me just having grown up in that environment. Because when you're a kid, you don't know any better. But now as an adult, you reflect back on that and you can maybe start being a little more intentional about, hold on, okay, I was probably a product of soft times, but that doesn't need to define me as soft, right? For some people who aren't intentional, maybe they will become soft. Yeah.

But I don't have to, if I'm mindful about that, I don't have to let myself become soft. And Tarek's point is like, what are you actively doing to kind of harden yourself, I guess? And that's a really good question. And I think that's an honest question that, I mean, everyone to some degree needs to ask themselves. Justin, I don't want to see you weak anymore.

I just don't want to see you. You love that because I'm almost calling how we week like physically because he's always like sickly and getting sick. Like every other week he has some sort of sickness like like he's like he's like sick in some way. You know, it's like sickly sickly like kind of fragile, you know,

Yeah. And I think that's a very relevant discussion even in the context of China, right? We have that stereotype here, like the single child being like the emperor or empress of the house. And they get out into the real world and the real world doesn't operate like that. You know? Well, okay. But none of these things are like absolute. No. So for instance, like...

While we're having this conversation, we can also say that when you grow up in tough conditions, you grow up in a disadvantaged family, a lot of the chips are against you. And then it's really hard for you to get yourself out of that. You get stuck in your socioeconomic stratus. And there's also this...

idea that wealthy people, rich people, people that have privilege, they continue to have privilege too. So it's not absolute. It's not like you grow up in a rich family and then all of a sudden you get soft and then you lose it all. It's like, no. You'd still rather be in a wealthier family. Soft doesn't necessarily mean financial. It could just be a mental state. No, but what I'm saying is that it's not exactly like that.

Because if you grow up in a more advantaged family, let's say above average family, doesn't mean that automatically that like you're weak, right? No, no, no, not at all. You have some people who are growth, like just like, so you have two examples, right? Let's say you have the person who grew up in a wealthy family that had everything, you know, everything silver and silver platter. You do have people that come out of that

like leveraging all those resources. Most of them. Become stronger. But even on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have people who come out from like very tough, struggling environments, poor families. Now you can either get beaten down by that or you have some people who come out even harder and stronger because of that, right? And like that drives them like to succeed. So you have different variations of that for sure. Right. And if you look at the data, of course, I mean, there's, you know, this is,

this is pretty clear, is that if you come from a well-off family, you're much more likely to continue that. And if you come from a poor family, you're much, you know, so it's like, like there's not this narrative that, okay, like, you know, put people in hard times and they're going to be great. No, no. But I think the, okay, well, number one, of course, if you become wealthy family, statistically speaking, you're still going to reap, you have all those advantages of a wealthy family. So you get better opportunities, getting better schools, leading you to get better opportunities for jobs, housing,

higher income and around, around we go. Right. For sure. No dispute there. What I'm saying, I think the thought experiment is this. You take a kid who was raised struggling hardships that had to learn like independence very early on the hard way versus you have a kid who was raised in like a very cushion padded, spoiled, whatever you want to call it environment. Okay. These two, you take those two people and now they're adults, right?

Now, you put them in an environment, let's say, all of a sudden the Great Depression hits or a depression system. Everyone both loses everything. They all have to start all over. There's no one having a higher footing than the rest. So they all have to start over now. Which one would you bet on to survive? Right.

Right. Like, I think that's the thought experiment, which one would be more equipped to survive? Not to say that they both can't survive. Yeah. Well, and I, but I also think there is a thought experiment aspect. And then there's the, there's also like the, the finer point that, um, like people who grow up in what more well-off families, like the,

The actual parenting is not necessarily softer. So it's not like you come from a rich family and then you're soft. And then you come from a poor family and you're hard. No, it's like you can come from a poor family and the parenting could be soft as fucking shit. And so overall, growing up with advantages is like fucking...

much more like desirable than growing up like without advantages. Right. And, and then when you're in a, like a better social economic situation, then it's just like the parents just need to make sure that like they parent correctly because they have all the advantages. Yeah. No, you're right. Because like the idea of, Oh, you came from a wealthy family. Therefore you're soft is a stereotype in and of itself. Totally. And I know, I,

From a lot of people I grew up with, that is not necessarily true. They're harsh. Some of those, like, yeah, exactly. Justin's like, just look at me, man. Basically, Justin's just saying, like, I'm soft. Like, I'm just the outlier. No, I knew some rich kids that I grew up with. And, you know, their parents got rich.

from being hard as nails. And they treated their kids that way. Because that's not intentionally, but that's just who they were. So they learned those same attributes. So they became like sharks. Well, they're the strongman generation. Yeah.

But that's like building a culture. But their kids also became strong because they adopted those characteristics. Because you observe like, okay, you observe like how your dad or your mom does business or whatever, how they interact with the world and you pick up cues. You're like, oh, okay, well, that's how I should be. If I ever have a kid, I'm going to whoop their ass. Like I've kind of been on the fence and I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to be really chill. But no, now after this conversation, I'm going to whoop their ass. But isn't that what your mom did to you? And you're always talking about how that almost ruined you. So it's like... No, and then, no, I'm going to whoop their ass. Yeah.

Now I'm kind of going back and forth because I was like, no, I don't want them to experience the same thing. Then I'm thinking like long term, like no, not only I'm going to whoop their ass, I'm going to make sure they whoop their kids' ass so that we can get the ass whooping like down the generation and have that generational trauma. Hey, let me ask you guys something. This might be like a totally like left turn, but you triggered me a little bit, Eric, by what you're saying. I'm just curious with both of you.

If you were to go back to your childhood and were able to sort of, I don't know, change a certain way of you were raised, like what would you, what would you do?

Like, what do you think you lacked? Like, what will we change? That's a good question. Like, what our parents did? Yeah, like, what do you lack? What did you lack? So I thought about this recently because I'm asking myself, how do I want to raise my children? And I thought about, what did I, like, am I happy with how I am now? And could I have become different? Right? And I thought about...

my passions and my sort of artistic inclinations. And they were never really supported or developed by,

until I discovered them by accident late in high school, right? And even then, I still question, is that really my talent? I don't know, right? And I just wonder if at a younger age, my parents were more, nothing against them, but if they were somehow more hands-on in helping me find my true talents and supporting that and kind of like helping me grow in that way,

Would I have become different? And where would I be right now? That's what I wonder. That's very similar to what I was going to say. Guidance was the first word that popped into my head. A little more guidance. And that's not to say my parents were not great. They were. But I feel... My mom was...

did the best she could. I mean, she was, my dad wasn't really around. So my mom was immigrated to a new country with two little, little kids. She had no idea how to speak English to a country she's never been before by herself trying to raise two kids in a new foreign country. Okay. Now we can all relate to this with our parents to a degree, right? For sure. And so I can only imagine what she was faced with

My father, on the other hand, was a little more, number one, he wasn't really around that much. But when he was, his mentality, and his mentality even to this day, is more like throw them into the deep end and they'll learn to swim kind of thing. Like I'm not going to teach you stroke for stroke. He didn't have the patience for that anyway. He was like, he's more like, you know, throw them into the deep end.

And they'll learn. They'll figure it out. They'll figure it out kind of deal. And that's, I feel in a way that was his principle for raising me. And he did it out of love because I feel he truly believes that that was the way. And so I feel like, and while I appreciate that, because with that, I also had a lot of freedom. But I would say I had too much freedom in that

I don't feel I had enough guidance. And because while there were a lot of things I did figure out on my own, and I'm thankful that I was given the space and the opportunity to do that on my own, there are a lot of things that even till this day, I'm like, I still haven't figured that out. I wish there was a little more guidance and be like, hey,

you know, kind of here's, here's how you do it. I feel like that was a little lacking and most of it was just me kind of free range kid out there, just exploring the world on my own, which was great. Again, it was awesome. I wouldn't have changed that for anything floating in the world. But, but with that, because there's pros and cons to everything, right? And if you want to nitpick,

What I would nitpick about that experience was that there was definitely, I feel, the lack of guidance. So that even to this day, there are some things that I feel like had I gotten some little more guidance when I was younger, I'd be much stronger at now in terms of some general things in life. It's like a lot of it's defined by what was missing.

you know, like if you had, you gotten everything that you wanted from what you're saying now, and then you went back, then maybe your reaction also would be different. Then you would be like, okay. You know, cause it's hard to get that balance. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't like, I'm trying to get to the point where I feel like I'm accountable for myself. I have control over, you know, a large number of levers. I mean, obviously I don't have control over a lot of things, but,

And so like, it's all up to me at this point, you know? And then I don't want to like hypothesize about different outcomes. Like, oh, like had they done this, I would have, you know, I would have been better, that kind of thing. So I'm trying to just like step out of that space entirely and say, hey, like whatever they, however they influenced me, it was in a way that defined who I am and I can't escape who I am.

So I have to just like buy that, right? I have to just buy into that and be like, I am everything that I want is based on sort of the path that was sort of set by my DNA, by their guidance, by my teacher's guidance, like all this stuff. If there was one thing I would change, it would just be like, like if they were just a little bit less harsh with me, because that was very painful. So it's not so much about like me now. It's just that I do have memories of like

Like, I'm pretty sure, like, I probably suffered quite a bit. It's fine. Like, I'm not suffering now. But, like, harsh in what way? Like, I've said this a million times. Tortures. Yeah, tortures. Like, yelling. Like, you know, like, beating. Mental torture, physical torture. Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. Like, what... It's not so outstanding that other parents don't do that. But it's just that...

I experienced that type of negativity, right? Which it's like there was a certain level of occasional cruelty that I don't blame them for at this point in my life.

And I'm not like, you can see, I'm not even emotional about it. I'm just like, if you ask me if there's one thing I could change, it's just like parents should just generally be very mindful and make sure they're not cruel. Like they gave me more love than any other parents, probably like the top 1%. So I think that's what has made me like, you know, happy with where I am in my life. But if parents can avoid it,

as possible to be mean and cruel to their children inadvertently because they want so much for them, I think it would be good. But it took me a long time to get over that. Like decades. But I don't blame them now. But if you asked me 10 years ago, I would be like, that was fucking bad. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because basically you're saying that you're not harping on the past because it is what it is, right? Yeah. And there's so many good things. Like, I don't want to take one thing that was bad and then, you know, because at many points in my life, I would have been like, no, it was like really bad. But I'm kind of like, well, eventually it kind of worked out. You know, I think I'm okay. But like, did it have to be that fucking harsh at the time? That's the thing that I would revisit. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because...

I would say the same thing maybe a couple of years ago, but until having children, I had to revisit myself in order to figure out my ethos on parenting, right? And how I would try to aim to be with my children. So that's why I was asking because I asked myself that. Like if I were to go back, and I actually said this to my mother recently. She came over, she helped.

And I was like, look, I have this thought in my head about how I'm raising my kids and what my plan is. And I told her what my plan is. And I was like, and I had some thoughts that my music playing and the arts that I got into, did I have any of that inclination when I was young, like when I was like five or six or anything like that?

I was like, I don't know, you know, no idea. Right. You play some violin, but you didn't really stick with it. That kind of thing. Right. And I was like, okay. And then she was like, and she got kind of defensive. She's like, wait, you don't, don't blame me. You know, I had to work and 100%. I am not blaming you.

Not blaming anybody at home. Trust me. I'm just saying that if I were to develop a little bit more, I think I might be a little bit different right now for more positive. Now, obviously, just like Eric said, that's sort of like an ideal way of thinking that there's a lot of other factors in what the outcome of a person is between DNA even that is out of your control.

But it's, I don't know, it's interesting food for thought, especially with you, Justin. Also, I'm sure you think about that with Riley, you know? Yeah. You know, a friend texted me the other day. This was literally like two days ago. He texted me on my phone and because we were talking and we were joking around. Oh, on your phone. Okay, sorry. Go ahead.

You asshole. So he texted me and, you know, we were just like kind of joking back and forth. And then he's like, are you spoiling your child yet? And it was a very innocent question. It was, I think it was half joking. Like, haha, are you spoiling him yet? Because I told him, you know, I had a kid. Kind of, you know, it was said like that. And so I didn't think anything of it at first.

And then I was taking out the trash. And for some reason, it hit me. And I was like, am I spoiling him? And all of a sudden, I was a little concerned. Like, maybe we are spoiling. Like, already. Because there's a school of thought that says, you can't spoil under a year old. Yeah, like, under a year old, there's nothing you can do to really spoil them. You're just meeting their needs, right? Which I buy into. But then I feel like,

I'm like, because my gut instinct at first to respond to that text was like, oh, no, not yet at least. Ha ha. And then I rethought about it. I'm like, maybe I am. Maybe I am. Because we're jumping at every little thing the kid does and every little cry and whimper and whatever. We're like, oh, we're reacting to it. And so I'm thinking like, well, actually, maybe I am already spoiling him.

And it's like a slow, it's a slow burn, right? Because even with this, we feel like, oh, we tell ourselves, oh, you can't spoil a kid under one. So you justify everything you do. And then it becomes normalized. It becomes, and then it becomes, that behavior becomes the baseline.

And then as the kid gets older, that baseline, you work off of that baseline, which is maybe already an elevated baseline in terms of spoiling your kid. And you just keep working off of that, off of that. And then before you know it, before you even realize it, you're like way spoiling your kid. You just don't feel like you are yet. And so I, all of a sudden the idea came to me. I'm like, not like maybe we, I am.

The whole kind of thing to take away from that, I think, is just to reevaluate that baseline that you're setting at a very early age, not even towards the child, but yourself. Like how you're responding to these things, how you're reacting and how you're internalizing everything that a kid is doing. Reevaluate that baseline you're setting right now because that baseline is going to become ingrained and it's going to become very natural and you won't even notice it after a while.

And so that just kind of brought to me a little more awareness in terms of, you know, how we're treating the kid and maybe not everything needs to be addressed, right? Not everything needs to be taken care of. It's just a reevaluation of that, I think. Yeah.

So I'm the only not parent here. So I feel like... I feel like we're almost leaving Eric out. No, no, I feel like... I'm sorry. No, no, I'm the only non-parent here, but I'm learning a lot and it's just about life and all this stuff. And it's whether or not I ever have kids, I'll be thinking about this forever because, I don't know, it's just a joy of life, right? To be able to have children and see them. And I'm so grateful that...

my parents have grandchildren from, you know, my brother and like all this stuff. Right. I wrote down five things that I feel like would help me at least think about this topic. And I'm just going to share them. Right. So like the first one, and this is what I've also picked up from talking to parents is

is like, first of all, remind myself whether or not I ever have kids of just how hard it is. It's like, like number one, top principle is like raising a child is the hardest thing you'll ever do in your life. Like, and just remind yourself that. So even if I don't raise one, I'll just remind myself that like, whatever I do, it's not going to be as hard as that. Right. And the second one would be if I did have children, I would want to prepare my child to be independent in the world at like some point.

Just like not to be the greatest person in the world, not to be rich, but it's just my job to make sure that this person, like whatever the age they reach, you know, like if they're 15, 10, you know, 20, 25, that they can actually just survive in the world like on their own without my help. Right. That would be the second thing. And then the third thing would be like always be open and honest with my clients.

child on what my approach is with this person. Like as soon as they can sort of understand and even very early on, like what like Pete was saying, it's like, just be open and honest. Like this is my intention because I think that always gets lost. It's like, you know, like most of us, we grow up to a point and then it's just like, we don't even understand like what our parents were trying to do. Like they never shared that with us. And I know that's easier said than done, but somehow like be open with that person on what my approach is and

The fourth one would be respecting their needs and like listening to their feedback on my parenting style over time as they develop and maintaining that feedback loop. So like I'm working, like I'm thinking about this person, like from their perspective, not my perspective.

right and then the last one would be like work backwards from the goal of like one day this kid has a show like his own podcast or her podcast let's say they're 30 years old and like the child basically doesn't have any regrets like i don't need them to say like oh like my dad was awesome but i probably would just say like like to answer that question how he said if they asked this kid like hey like what would you change about your childhood and they'd be like i don't know it's

Pretty cool. Like don't really have too much thoughts on that one and working backwards from there. Right. So like just, just, just, just a different dad would be nice. Yeah. But like, I think of these five things, it's like the first two, only the first two would be from my perspective, which is like, remind myself how hard it is to be a parent. And then the second is like, make sure this person is independent. But then the last three would all be like inside out. Right. It would just be like considering like what,

this person and what they ultimately will think that they need. And then designing everything around that rather than like what I want. Cause what I want actually doesn't fucking matter. Although like what I want, I've just written five things that I want. But if you, if, but, but as much as possible, like, like,

The thoughts that I have are based on like- Eric's list of wants. The last want is, it doesn't matter what I want. Yeah, exactly. But there's a paradox in it, but I think you get what I mean, which is like, what do I think this person would want outside of what I would want?

I mean, I feel like we've been like, oh man, we've been talking. Do you feel like we've been talking way too much about parenting? Or is it just a recency bias? I was just thinking about that. I was just thinking about that. I was like, I mean, do our listeners really want to hear us talk about parenting so much? Yeah. I mean, I know there's a lot of parent listeners, just at least from our group chats. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe we're doing a little too much. Yeah. Get to some much-

Yeah, it really does. Maybe we need to do like a sub podcast that's just about parenting. The Honest Parent. All right. We'll end it there. I'm Justin. I'm a Babymetal fan. And I'm a wannabe dad. All right. Be good. Be well. Peace.