#102. Not Giving An F
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I do give an F about you, Justin. Your dinner did not show that. Dude, he's not letting that go. You got all these curries and you didn't even get rice. How are you supposed to eat curry without rice, motherfucker? There is no context to this. There is no context. I avoid carbs. I don't give an F about carbs. I don't give an F about politics. I don't give an F about how many burpees you can do in a minute. I don't give an F about rude people.

I don't give an F about... Like... Fuck. It's the honest drink.

I feel like you've been okay. I didn't want to ask this.

I'm happy to see you. I feel like you've been busy lately, Justin. What makes you say that? I don't know, just context clues. What, the fact that I haven't been talking to you guys? I think there's nothing bad, but I did want to just check in, right? Check in on my buddies. You know, it's funny because I actually said something similar when I walked in. Before you got here, Eric, I said...

How's it going? Everything okay? You've been kind of low-key. I've just been silent in the chat with you guys, that's all. And that's not anything against you guys at all. It's just... Silent in the chat. It's been silent treatment, I think. Right, Howie? We have entire... Howie and I have entire conversations in there. I feel like... Do we do something wrong? I constantly check the group to see if there's still three people in it. I don't know.

Yeah, no, I've just been questioning kind of how much I really like you guys, you know? And yeah, no, no, I just had some stuff in my personal life that's been taking up more of my time. And... Is it work related? Like business related? Yeah, some of it is work related. Some of it is good stuff? Well, he's had a really bad diarrhea recently, right? No, but here's the thing.

I was actually going to talk to you guys off air about this. Since you've opened up this can of worms, we might as well dig into it now. I'm nervous now. Oh, me too. Check my heart rate. I have to prioritize different things in my life. I have to kind of start valuing my own time more. I appreciate what you're saying, Justin. And we spend time on the show, but also we spend time together off the show. And I noticed that you had important things that you were taking care of. And I wasn't

listening very carefully but you can't help but just noticing that like you were busy right like you had to take care of stuff like phone calls were coming in like you had your business voice you know on like you're speaking chinese like to different people and it was just an empty dial tone on the other end and you were like barking orders it's like no i need you and i hear some meek voice on the other it's like anyways

You were doing stuff, and I noticed that. And I also know that there's just obviously to have your own, to be, you're not the only person in your life too. And you have your friends and family and all this stuff. So there's definitely responsibilities there. And our show is also about

just how we continue to grow and develop. So I know that's going on in your life, even though we don't always talk about the specifics, but we're there to support each other spiritually. And then with the show, we're always kind of like slightly walking on eggshells in the sense that you take the lion's share of the production piece. And we just know there's a lot. And so there's that internal gratitude, but I can't imagine what it's like to have to take on that responsibility.

What is this? It just felt like it needed some music. So some random jazz? I like it, I like it. I wanted to put something more romantic and inspiring. You know, that kind of music. And I don't want to get up on a high horse or anything like that. I do... As he gets on a high horse. As you're already on the high horse. As you've been on the high horse. You gotta come down. I'm aware that this is absolutely what the show is about. It's that

all of this stuff has to be filtered through our value system. And even if you think about like fitness or whatever it is, it's when you join a group of people that are fitter than you, that when you are able to then start getting more fit. And so I think as a group, I think we've learned how to ask better questions. I definitely feel like

We know how to engage people of all walks of life and we've developed empathy so that we can kind of look at any single person and just view them as a human being and ask questions. I really feel like we've kind of changed that way. We've become more empathetic to people. I don't know if you guys would feel the same way. You know, and I've said this to your face before off air, so I have no problem saying it to you on air, is that I feel like you...

still refer, you have these qualifiers, and I mentioned that before, right? You have these qualifiers and you have that habit of having to qualify everything first before you accept it as legitimate, before you accept it as like good or something that's worthy.

of your time, you almost have these qualifiers. You do it with situations and you do it with people. Like, oh, this person, like you'll go through their resume and be like, oh, this person graduated from that school and did this and was the CEO of that. And then he's a truly badass because he did all these things. And that's great. I'm not saying those people aren't badass. Obviously they're badass people. But to me, I don't feel like I have to qualify everybody.

to want to sit down and listen to them and learn from them and have them share something that I could actually learn from. I don't feel I have to qualify everything that has to meet a laundry list of criteria. And most of it is kind of academic criteria or business criteria of what position in this company did you ascend to? What school did you graduate from? All these things. And I just feel like

I don't know. I don't give a fuck about that. I really don't. And so I try to see past that and just try to find value in everything. And I super sound like I'm on my own high horse right now, like talking down on you. I'm 100% aware of that. Bah, bah, bah.

I just don't give a fuck in that regard. I don't give a fuck. Hey, if you had your own show, you wouldn't even have to edit it. It'd be so fucking good. He's like, I don't give a fuck. You know what would be really cool? That would be a great idea for an interview format podcast show.

you call it I Don't Give a Fuck. And you just invite all the top most badass people in the world, right? You'll have all these world leaders on and all these celebrities and titans of industry, all these crazy people on the show, athletes, and the show is called I Don't Give a Fuck. And the whole premise is you don't give a fuck about their accolades, their position, their celebrity. You don't give a fuck about that. And you try to ask the real hard-hitting questions

to them as human beings and make them relatable in that way. Like bring them down a peg. Right. You know? Like, I don't give a fuck about your celebrity statue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be a great, great idea for a show. Let's start inviting the top, the top people in the world. Let's just do it. Well, I think there's merit to that and it would be interesting. I also think it can quickly go wrong. Cause like you, you, cause you, you have this,

I don't give a fuck kind of thing. Like Aaron Rodgers with COVID. And then it's like a very bad result. So I think you have to do it in the right way. Like you have to, I think what you're saying is great reflection. I can't remember. We've talked about this on the show, or I know we've talked about it off the show, but yeah,

there's, it's not always necessary to qualify things because it's really a balance. Because if you don't qualify or legitimize or look at credibility at all on something, then it could be very, very bad. But if you go the other extreme and you have to qualify everything, then you get into dogma. And then it's like, okay, you don't have the credentials, so

Yeah.

you become really closed minded. And so if you're saying open minded versus closed minded, I think you've definitely grown and developed so that you're more open to certain things. You still do have your filter though. Cause if it's total like horse shit, but what's, but what's, what's interesting is that, uh, what you just said, Eric, um,

I mean, I think it also, well, I think, I think it also depends on, on the type of people or, or even the society that you're in, um, will kind of dictate the sort of gravity of that, that way of thinking, right. Of the accolades, the paper legitimacy, et cetera. Right. So for example, um, having, having a recent conversation, uh, about this, about how here in China, um,

You know, there's a lot of that sort of paper legitimacy that, you know, people take high importance of what school you went to. You know, that's why so many people are so – have so much pressure in taking the Gaokao, you know, because they want to get into the best schools. They want to have the best education.

you know, results, you know? But meanwhile, I mean, my argument would be, well, you have plenty of people in this world that never went to school or didn't have the means to go to school, but are brilliant in their own mind and have successes in their own way. There are many different routes to success. There does, you know, as a person that works with many different types of people, I've worked with many brilliant people that didn't

here in china that didn't come from high level schools you know but they're freaking geniuses well okay but like let's look at this sort of analytical like not analytically but just kind of look at it logically so if you were to take like a pool of all of the uneducated people then what would they be good at what would they probably statistically not be good at because

maybe there are certain topics they'd be good at if they're uneducated because then they had to compensate in other areas. So they might have more street smarts, et cetera, et cetera. But if you were to give them a math test, there might be a few that were really good at math just naturally, but most of them probably wouldn't be so good at math, right? So what we're not saying is that you can take a pool of people that aren't good at something and then we assume that they're good at something. What we are saying is that

We don't

automatically, number one, if someone has great credentials, you shouldn't automatically assume they're good. And you should use your own judgment. And number two is that if you meet someone who on paper doesn't look good on something, but they demonstrate that competence, then you shouldn't then discount that because they don't have the academic credentials. So those two specific kind of things, I think, are the nuance of this particular conversation. Yeah. Well,

Well, you guys actually took it to a whole, you guys are looking at it in a really objective way and kind of making a commentary on society itself, which is great. But I think like when I mentioned the qualifier thing, I was thinking like it speaks more about you than anything else. You know what I'm saying? Like not you personally, Eric. I mean, I'm talking to you. Yes, personally. But I just feel like it speaks to ourselves more.

about, okay, well, why do we need to qualify things? Because we're actually qualifying it for ourselves. - Agreed. - In a way, right? It's not really about that person. It's more a self kind of reinforcement. - The example would be that you know

like certain celebrities or whatever, but you don't view yourself at that level. So you go places and you're like, oh, I know this person. I know this person. I know this person. But you do it and you overdo it and you do it at a level where you discount yourself and you're

Your own credibility derives from the fact that you know all these other people. Through association. A little bit through association. Yeah. And sometimes it's like, okay, like, fuck it. Like, I don't give a fuck what other people think because I know what I'm capable of. And I feel like that's a really important skill. You don't need to prove yourself to others.

Yeah. Like you just do the work. Yeah. Well, the whole proving is just a quicker way to establish that legitimacy because who has time sometimes to go through your background and really understand who you are. So you have to have some sort of credibility checker. Well, it's like a resume, right? You kind of filter through resumes before you spend the time actually interviewing people. Yeah. There's only so much time. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Look, and also to clarify, I'm not saying this whole like,

art of not giving a fuck thing has actually served me for the better. I don't think enough time has passed and I haven't done enough self-reflection to

to say whether I've improved or not because of that. All I'm saying is for better or for worse, I feel like I've adopted that much more than you guys have. That's all I'm trying to say is that. And also that's like- It's not a big step for you compared to us though. Yeah, that's true. To adopt that. That's true. I mean, let's- No, but you've said, you've commented how you felt like I've been more withdrawn. And a lot of that I think is partly because of

adopting this idea of just not giving a fuck. Like I really, I really stopped giving a fuck what people think of me. Let's talk about this. I'm going to call you out for a second. So what you just said right there of when, when, for example, if I call you out about being more withdrawn and stuff like that, and then you just said, well, maybe it has to do with you not giving a fuck. I think the whole not giving effect needs, needs to have some sort of criteria and boundaries. So I think, so when it comes to like friendship, you need to, you need to give a fuck.

Do I though? Do I? You know what he's doing? He's like pounding his chest and treating his friends like shit. And then he's like, yeah, I just don't give a fuck. The book is not about not giving a fuck about your friends. It's like, it's so ridiculous. He's like, I ignore you guys. I don't give a shit. I'm gonna... He literally took it to the next level. He's like, Nansen, I get it. I don't give a fuck about anything anymore. Yeah.

They're all fuckers. There's this line in the book. It's like, most of us struggle throughout our lives by giving too many fucks in situations where fucks don't deserve to be given. Like, he's determined that Howie and Eric are fucks that do not deserve to be given. That's so awesome. That's cool. Props to you, man. When you could just shit on your friends. Props to you, man. That's like the ultimate. That is not at all how I wanted it to come across. That's like a sociopathic

And I'm over here like bragging about it like on my soapbox. You're so proud. You're like the ultimate friend. Like his wife is like, yeah, he hasn't talked to me in a month either. Like I'm painting myself like such an asshole. I'm like bragging about it. Because you don't give a fuck. But the irony though is that for some people it actually works.

There are people who just, they're so pathologically I don't give a fuck that it actually works for them because they dictate their own terms. Yeah. Well, like you said, I mean, everything we talk about on this show requires balance, right? It requires, everything requires balance and for sure. Like you can definitely go too far with it where it's just not very helpful and it's counterproductive. There needs to be some sort of happy, happy medium with that for sure.

I just feel like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, this sounds so like, again, like I'm on my high horse, like just judging other people. But I just feel like, I just feel society as a whole, like just too many people give too many fucks. Okay. To the point where it either paralyzes them or alters their behavior in ways where they're just acting because of...

not anything innately that they hold true or they hold to be like driving their own actions. It's more about you're acting in ways that are kind of determined and driven by outside forces all the time. Like we can't, we can't always avoid that. I mean, in this reality, we're going to be affected by outside forces to some degree and we're going to have to do things that we don't want to do for sure. But when I feel like when your whole life is determined by that dynamic and

I think it's sad. I agree. I agree. I feel like if you feel more liberated or you feel a little bit happier or you have more control of your time and your decisions, and if you really feel that way, then you're the judge of that. And when I hear you say that, I feel like there's areas of my life where

Other people are still, other people or the circumstances are still calling the shots. So my personal reflection is that I want to do more of that. Absolutely. So I would not disagree with you at all. And it's only you that can determine if this is working with you, working for you or not. Like, yeah, I do in a way feel more liberated after having done the show. I feel that's one way that I've changed. I feel more liberated.

And especially in the beginning, we were kind of self-conscious about coming on air and what we would say and how we would sound and how we would come across. And to me, after repetition of doing this and practice, I don't know, I honestly feel more liberated. Well, if I want to...

If I want to just linger one more second, I think we should pivot too, right? To understand like what else, but I will use the language of transactional analysis. So this is a very obscure thing. Most of our Tillman, if you're listening, you'll understand. Big ups Tillman. Yeah. Tillman. And how was that? He doesn't wear pants by the way.

Tillman, he's calling you out. That's what Howie and I concluded after our Zoom session with him. But he's standing, right? Yeah, but the screen is always cut off at the waist. So we've just determined that he's not wearing pants. Even during the winter?

I don't know. I don't know. It's a Zoom call. Who knows where he is? He might be standing outside. Yeah, that's true. No, we're just joking, but it's just funny. It is good speculation. But he doesn't give a shit either, so it's good. But I think what you're saying is that this notion of

Needing to depend on others to be okay, the I'm okay, you're okay thing. What you're saying is that you're okay and you don't need other people's validation. And when we use or when I use qualifiers and stuff, it's like me maybe subtly not feeling okay enough. So I wouldn't disagree with what you just said. But pivoting from that, what else? What else?

Have we? Yeah, I think let's turn the tables. We've spoken about me for quite a while. Why are you guys looking at me? Because you've been silent and you're not talking. And he's the one. He's cracking up all these jokes, but he's not talking. And he was clearly the one going into it that was in need of like massive renovation and self-improvement. Like clearly. Clearly to this day. Clearly to this day. He can barely make the show half the time. The only thing on my mind is thinking about the metaverse, honestly. That's the only thing that, besides work.

That's been on my mind. Okay.

So what is this? Just really quickly. He's trying to change the subject, but we won't let him. We won't let him. It's the metaverse. We won't let him, but really quickly explain. Because I see the headlines. I think I kind of know what it is, but I don't really. Wait, isn't metaverse Facebook now? Yeah, the Facebook. They're changing the, Facebook is changing their name to meta, right? Yes. And they're creating, Zuckerberg is creating this thing called the metaverse, which is going to be like the new internet. I mean, am I even saying that right? Yeah.

You're looking at me like I'm some connoisseur of technology. You just mentioned all you think about is the metaverse, and you can't even put together two sentences about the metaverse. No, because it all ties in. It's like the future is really going to be virtual. Yes, it's a virtual reality-based future. Whether it's social interaction or other...

Any type of social or business work type of interaction is all done virtually. It's basically, yeah, exactly. It's basically bringing offline reality all online. So one small example of that is the NFTs. If you look at right now, a lot of people are paying a lot of money to buy digital artwork, right? Spending a lot of money to buy these little things.

Tokens. Little tokens or these little pictures, these little... I don't get it. Non-fungible tokens. Yeah, these little gifts or I don't know, whatever it is, right? Little pictures. Why are they spending so much money? And supposedly, it's like the only one online. It's like digitally unique. So it's like you have the only one. Well, it's just a way that you can basically... It's like when you buy something now that's like an artifact or something, you have to have some sort of...

What's the word? Certificate? Yeah, like a certificate of authenticity. Yeah, yeah. That's basically what it is. It's like a digital version of that authenticity so that when you buy, you can buy video, you can buy a photo, you can buy pictures or whatever. Yeah, but what's the value of that? Well, the value of that is like, what's the value of that buying a piece of art offline? Okay. It's the same thing because they're saying you're going to be living virtually. So you're going to want to decorate your virtual world with your own artwork. Got it. Right? So I like...

I want to learn more about it and keep an open mind on it. But I do have questions. Because when I look at the wall and I see the guitars, when I look at a car, when I think about a great meal, when I think about the audio equipment used to produce the show, when I think about a fitness class, et cetera, et cetera. All the tangible things. Those are all tangible things. While I might enjoy living in this virtual universe part of the time,

I get my energy by living in the real fucking universe. I get my energy by meeting my friends, like, doing stuff. Eric's like, you know, I walk to work, you know, with my raggedy shoes, and Eric's like, that's not music. I'll tell you what music is. Yeah. No. But how does this, like, how does he, okay, first of all, we're not even talking about the metaverse, because that's, like, not even the same thing as NFTs. Yeah. Like, I want to go back, like, what the fuck?

Have you learned in the last two years being on this show? He really tried to deflect there, didn't he? I know. I'm not letting him. No. Because I've learned of not giving a fuck about that kind of stuff. Yeah. So let's go into it. He tried hard to deflect. I really did. The metaverse, Howie, really? I really did. He almost got me, too, because he knows I love to, like, go on these tangents. Really, Howie? The metaverse? Yeah, I gotta go to the bathroom and be right back. No, what's so, what's so, what's so, uh...

I'm just joking around. What did I learn? I mean, I didn't learn anything. I just learned that Eric loves fitness. Yeah, that's something I learned too. Eric really loves fitness. Eric was a really late bloomer to fitness. It's comedic.

What's the opposite? I mean, well, not you, Justin, because you're still athletic. But yeah, like, I grew up working out and, like, being sporty and stuff like that. And I've dropped off, right? Meanwhile, this guy over here has discovered, like, the wheel. Yeah. He's discovered the wheel. And he's trying to preach how great the wheel is. It is great. Like, the benefits of having a wheel. Yeah, the greatest things are...

The greatest, most of the greatest things were discovered a long time ago. That's why they're so great. Okay, let's go back to Harry. So, I mean, I think for me, my growth, for lack of a positive... Did you just see his head truck? He was like... Well, I'm not going to get on a high horse here. That's the difference, okay? You don't even have a horse. Yeah, well, yes, that's what I'm trying to get at, okay? I'm trying to get at that.

So one thing I've learned about myself, and let's do this. One thing I learned about myself, and second is what I got out of it in a positive way, right? So what I learned about myself is that

I really don't, even to this day, still, I don't like hearing myself talk. Still. Right? But I do enjoy having conversations. I do enjoy, like, if I get, like, when I listen to the episodes, I'll start to cringe and stuff like that. Still. But that's the giving a fuck thing I'm talking about. Yes, yes, of course. Of course, of course. But what I enjoy, and that's why I don't give a fuck,

Like I don't let it stop me from doing this is because I do enjoy this, you know? So that's one thing I learned about myself.

Now, in terms of what I, you know, as I move on, it's like I actually do think I've dropped some of my giving a fuck a bit because of me opening up a lot more with my thoughts and, you know, talking about my personal life and my, you know, the things I go through with my anxieties and all this stuff. I used to never want to share that kind of stuff out to the public, but whatever, you know, I'll talk about it and maybe hopefully it can help somebody, you know, out there. So, yeah.

I just don't think from a, because it used to always be from a professional way. Remember? Yeah. My problem is that I'm always worried. Well, Eric actually as well. So it's like, I'm always worried about what if somebody from my profession listens to this and be like, oh, Howie, I can't book him as a director. He's kind of weird. He's got, he's got anxieties and, and he, you know, he's a human being. Oh God. You're worried about losing credibility. Yes. And, and that's the thing that I got over. So I would, I would say that's the positive that came out of it.

No high horse here. No high horse.

these moments of highs and lows, it's part of being a human being. And I think we've learned that, and we've learned to not dwell on it as much. So I think it's really powerful, and we've learned to share ourselves with other people and give a little bit of ourselves to the world as well. - I do wanna make one more comment.

There was a time where I was a bit on the sensitive side, if anybody made a crack about me and stuff like that. And then I would kind of like regress a bit and kind of like whine in the corner.

I don't think I do that anymore. And I think it was just a period of time. I think it was just that period of time in my life that I was going through some shit. And so it was just like unnecessary pounding that I thought, and I just didn't want to deal with it. But as you know me, I can take a joke, and I'm always joking around and stuff like that as well. But one thing I want to mention is that I see growth in Eric.

Because before, whenever we cracked a joke about Eric, his whole mood would change. Like, it would do that regression that I would do, right? Oh, but like way worse. Like, he would take it personally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he would be, he would get defensive about it. And I think to him, it felt like we were attacking him personally. Yeah. Where, and then he would like...

go on the defensive and it was like, whoa, what's happening here? But now I feel like he's rolling with it and he knows we're just joking. And yeah. I mean, he still has a very long way to go. I mean, he's by no means in a good place at all. But you're much better than where you were. I appreciate that. I want to share this with

with everyone because it's a lesson for all of us. So there's one really great book called The Four Agreements. And so about 20 years ago, this book was a really hot thing. And Tom Brady has credited this book with changing his life. Again, a qualifier. Because if Tom Brady agrees with it, then it's gotta be good. It must be good. Because if Tom Brady didn't agree with it, this would be a bullshit book. I'm gonna start fucking with you guys. Not only did Tom Brady

Okay, not only did he endorse it, he also reads it every year. And his wife, Giselle Bündchen, reads it every year. So many qualifiers. And she's gorgeous. So obviously the book is real. Four agreements, everybody. Now we can talk about it. Knowing that, now we can talk about it. Well, I'm not going to talk about it anymore. So that's good. I appreciate you keep calling that out. That's good. I like that. Because it'll take a while to develop that muscle memory. I think people...

If you qualify things too much, you actually lose credibility. Well, let me just say this first because this is to your credit. And I want to make sure I say this now and we don't forget about it because I want you to know this. The whole reason why I call you out about qualifying is because, Eric, you are honestly such a brilliant person. Like, you're really smart and you're truly thoughtful.

So I just feel like as long as you see value in something, it's qualified. You should talk about it. If you see value in something and you think something is worth talking about, you do not need to know that Tom Brady endorses this book for you to want to talk about it. Like I would much rather listen to you than, well, maybe not. I mean, I'd much rather listen to Tom Brady. But what I'm saying is,

You are so smart that you don't need other people to qualify what you deem as legitimate. You have that power and you should have already that authority to kind of deem what you feel is legitimate in your own right. I feel like that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I feel like I need to have my own national anthem.

No, I appreciate it. Cheers, cheers. Wow, really? I gave him too much juice. Throw it on the bone. He wants the whole boneyard. Give a man an inch, he takes a mile right there. That's huge food for thought. I appreciate that. I really, really, really appreciate that. I feel...

Maybe to linger on this for just a moment, I think there's two things that happen and it's really good reflection is one is I do tend to take like an academic formal view of things sometimes for whatever reason. And maybe it's just because my, my upbringing and just the way I think about things. But I think that I take an academic view. It's kind of like, okay, well it was, you know, this is more credible. This comes from this, this comes from this. And so it's a bit of a tick if you, if you think of it that way.

And I think the other piece is that I'm trying to always connect the dots between the different sort of systems and ways of thinking. But you're right. There's no need to necessarily reference everything as long as you assimilate it. So I do feel like I have to give credit where it's due. So...

Right. Rather than like assimilate all the ideas and be like, okay, this is my idea. But it's like, I want to give credit to the people that thought of it, but maybe that's unnecessary sometimes. Or maybe it's not about that. And you're just trying to give credibility to your thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. It could be a lot of things, but going, I appreciate the, it's, it's, it's not the first time you brought it up, but I always find it valuable. And I have, I encourage you to bring it up so that we can kind of keep each other in check.

I encourage you to do more. One of the four agreements that I found really, really powerful and I try to remind myself all the time is don't take anything personally. And I think it's just such a simple phrase, but the book is actually centered around one of those key things is don't take anything personally. Because pretty much nothing other people do is because of you. People are just so absorbed in their own world. And so when you see them,

they're completely wrapped up in themselves. And you're merely just another object in their world. But you're thinking the same thing. You're completely absorbed in your own world. And so then when some conversation, when some comment happens, you tend to

take that statement as if it came from your world, but that statement actually came from someone else's world. And so I think like in the past with some of my mood management, anger management types of things, it's like, I was just taking everything personally. And it's just such an exhausting way of living.

And so I think humor definitely is the antidote. When you just kind of follow that principle, don't take anything personally, assume positive intent and just roll with it. Like I'm a much happier person, I have to say, because it's easy to be derailed. And if people are trying to manipulate you, they can easily fuck with you.

If they know how to push their buttons. Yeah, they can just totally fuck with you. And so it's kind of deprogramming yourself. So the two things there is one, just realizing you're not alone. Everyone has this. It's like the saboteurs thing with Shirzad, whatever his name is. Like, I loved how he articulated that everyone has these flaws because it's actually how you're wired. So you don't take it personally yourself.

that you're unique. And then also then when people interface with you, you just, you don't get bothered by them because that's just, that's you taking something that's not even an arrow and then stabbing yourself with it. So I do really appreciate the recognition that I take things less personally now because it's very true and it's liberating. It's very liberating. Again, liberating. Yeah, liberating. I mean, I think that's the ultimate goal, right? Like, how do you liberate yourselves?

From whatever kind of vices or attachments or problems you're dealing with, like how do you liberate yourself from these, right? From these things. Often we have to liberate ourselves from our own saboteurs. Totally. Outside forces.

But even outside forces, like you said, Eric, is just the manifestation of our own internal saboteurs that let outside forces fuck with us. There's always going to be outside forces, but if you don't have that internal saboteur to translate those outside forces into attacks on you or into threats...

you won't be affected in the same way. It's rare, and you're absolutely right, it's rare that the outside forces, number one, are targeting you. That's the whole don't take things personally. And then it's also rare that they're powerful enough to really impact you. Because we're not like a major country where

where other forces are mobilizing. Like, why would they target us? We're not even at the level where... I mean, I'd be happy if the podcast got to a level where people were like,

targeting us because we were so fucking famous and good yeah no but that's so that's why your analogy of like grabbing an arrow that was never targeted for you and stabbing yourself with it is so true it's like we're grabbing all these arrows out of the sky that aren't even coming they're not even arrows they're not even like not even coming at us right they're flying in different directions and we're grabbing them and snatching them out of the sky and stabbing ourselves with them and then blaming the outside world for it okay i'll i'll add to your analogy

So the arrows actually belong to you. You've stashed all these arrows and they're in your pockets and someone says something and you're like, what? And you take the arrow and you're like, what? You just fucking stabbed me? And you stab yourself with your own arrow. The arrow is not even the other person's. Either way, there's arrows involved. It has to be arrows. Yeah. Yeah, but I think liberation is a good word, right? And I think that's a good framework for

to think about. And like, you know, whatever subject we're talking about, I think maybe it's a way of thinking like, okay, well, how do I live my life in the most liberated way? And we've had discussions before about who we thought were like our models of success, right? Like when we look out in the world and we think about, okay, well, what does success look like to me? We each have our own definition of that. And we've gone through that off air before.

But to me, I think it's really about liberation. Whoever can live the most liberated way, that is success to me. This dude, Justin, is the physical manifestation of liberated right now. Just look at him. I'm glowing. He's literally set himself free. Yeah, I think liberate... The whole idea of liberating yourself is key. And...

I feel like the ones that we were touching upon are quite easy to overcome. Well, okay, maybe not easy to overcome, but a little bit more about self. It's because you don't have to worry. You don't actually worry about affecting other people. It's all about how you intake messages or information or whatever, right? It's how you translate it, right? But then there's a lot of different...

things that happen in your life or situations in your life that if you can kind of get over, you can liberate yourself, but it's just so much more complicated. And that's the hardest. Those are the ones that are hard to liberate yourself from. For example, you hear stories of people being so controlled by their parents, right? And

And like, let's say they're pushing you to get married or something, you know? But you yourself, let's say you don't believe in marriage, you know? Well, there's a problem, right? Because you respect your parents, you love your parents, you're in that family circle, but at the same time, you don't want to be pushed and, you know, pulled by them, you know? And how do you liberate yourself? Well, you liberate yourself by being like, well, I don't care, I'm just gonna live my life. But then you're just heartbreaking, you're breaking the hearts of your parents.

your parents. And that's a very tough area to be in. Right? So I think these kind of questions of liberation, I'm sure a lot of listeners have and people in general have. And that's something that probably we haven't talked about enough. Like we, a lot, a lot of times we talk about our own sort of

Just like you kind of said, like a whole selfish world that we're in. Yeah. You know? But then what about the others and how we affect other people? Yeah. And that's the practical side. Because like we can talk all we want on the show and be like, fuck everything. And just postulate all these things. But I really appreciate your point. How you're saying that your world is not insulated from...

other people's worlds, like your family, your friends, your co-workers. There are parts that intersect, and it's really difficult to not give a shit. Like, if I go to work, or I'm with my family, and I do something, and it impacts people, and they're not happy about it, definitely I feel uncomfortable. And there's no way I can get rid of that uncomfortable feeling. And how do you... That's a dilemma. It's like, well, what if what you want versus what

Your family, your work, your friends want is different. How do you reconcile those things? That's a really hard one. Where does liberation come from there? Yeah. Yeah. And that's a tougher question, right? And that's a tougher dilemma, like you said. And that is definitely a question we haven't really thought enough about on the show. To me, I feel it really stems from having that perspective really stems from

the differences between Western culture and Chinese or Asian culture, right? Like we talk about these things much from a Western background. Growing up in the Western familial dynamic,

It's more self-centered. It's more about me. It's more about me as an individual. Independence. It's more about independence, right? But here in China, as we know, as we've spoken to many people, as we see. General Asia. General Asia, probably. It's much more, you're always intertwined with your family. Yeah. Because even just translating the concept of the book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, without digging in, obviously there's a lot of nuance in the book, but if you just take it for face value, yeah.

It's a very selfish way of thinking. But if you're in Asia, you can't... I feel like that title of a book would never work here. Well, the book is about applying primarily your own filter to every situation. And living in Asia, we all need to be more mindful that there's a different filter. That filter directly opposes...

bigger forces that would swallow you up yeah whereas that individual force in the u.s the way the systems work is that you can apply that filter because it's under it's sort of under your control and it's not you're not as overwhelmingly dominated by group sentiment yeah it's just much more communal right like we almost talk about communal yeah

Yeah, that's true. And that's really interesting. Good point. Because it completely changes the question, right? It completely changes how you tackle this idea that we're talking about of not giving a fuck, self-liberation. And it makes it, at least to me, much more complicated when you take into account that. So hold on, with that, I'm going to combat your remark earlier of how you are the only one that has stopped giving a fuck. Ooh, okay. Yeah.

You guys have stopped giving a fuck? No. Because I'm going to step in now and say that I have done the opposite, actually, when it comes to family. I've actually reversed myself as opposed to being a less giving a fuck and becoming more of giving a fuck and prioritizing that side, which is familial responsibilities, family

you know, things like that. So that's all I'm saying. Yeah, but now you're painting me out to be like someone who doesn't give a fuck about my family. And that's not how I was using, come on, let's be honest, that's not how I was using that term. Because the subtle art is also about giving more fucks about the things that deserve, right? It's,

Because the title is... It's misleading. It's a little misleading. The title can be misleading. The title is marketing. And there's obviously no way that you can summarize the book in one sentence. But...

The book is also very much about when you give less fucks about the things that don't matter, and by understanding what... It helps you understand what really matters. And for Justin, like, what you shared in the beginning of the podcast was a perfect example of that, is like, you give more fucks about, okay, I really want to have fun on the show. I really want to...

edit things that I want the show to really mean something about something. And so I feel like from that perspective, 100% agree that you're giving more fucks about certain things by giving less fucks about things, right? So I think that's definitely... And then you know the arrow analogy we were using earlier? No, what are you talking about? The arrow thing about... The arrow analogy in Asia would be that

that you can't just not stab yourself with the arrow because your decisions will sort of indirectly have other people's arrows stab them. So like you make a decision and it's the right one for you, but as a consequence, the whole group of people around you, your family, are stabbing themselves with arrows and you can't let that happen. So can we talk about the metaverse again? Now that things are happening in real life, companies are pushing this forward,

the idea of living in a virtual reality in some way, whether it's augmented reality or virtual reality or a combination of, or some other thing that we don't even know yet, implantations and stuff like that. This future, this dynamic and crazy future that we can barely even imagine right now, that's coming quite quickly. What does it mean? What does it mean in terms of

what life will be like for us, for social behavior, for the kids, for the next generation. This is definitely a big topic to talk about, but let's just real quickly, what are your thoughts? I think we had a episode a while back when we were talking about like, I don't really deal with like stocks and stuff like that. It's just like not tangible to me. I want to just know what I'm getting into. I want to be able to... You want to rotate the dial on the phone to make your phone call. Yes, exactly. But...

I think everything is coming together. When you think about the metaverse, you think about all the things that are kind of up and coming now. You talk about crypto, you talk about NFTs, you talk about everything and the way it's trending is supporting the metaverse. Digital avatars. Digital avatars. It's all part of creating the metaverse world, right? The universe.

that is virtual, and all these things are supporting, all the things that you would need are supporting it. Currency, right? Social structure, it's all coming infrastructure. It's all building this world. And I just read an article recently about the Winklevoss twins. You know, the Winklevoss twins, they were one of the original co-founders along with Mark Zuckerberg in Facebook, right?

And they have created, I forget what it's called, but they have basically created the first

stock exchange for cryptocurrency. So you don't have the NASDAQ, you have the Dow Jones, and you have all these exchanges. They have created the first actual official exchange for cryptocurrency. So it's like making it not only official, but making it structured in a way where it can really become something in this metaverse world. So everything is building towards this. And it just seems like

Do you think it's going to happen, though? Do you think we are going to, as a society, enter this metaverse? Of course. Of course. You have a lot of people out there that are very anti it, though. Those of us, and I'm guilty of this, that were caught in this idea of having it to be tangible, we're the ones going to get left behind. I believe that. I just think that that language of the definition of tangible...

is going to be redefined in the future, right? Like the tangible of what you feel in this cup right now will be a tangible cup in the metaverse

It's just the texture is going to feel different. It's going to be this glove that you wear or something else that you've, you are tangibly holding. Another example of this is, and this is hard to believe now, but this was a real thing. And we lived through this. We all, all three of us lived through this period of time is when, let's say music, right? When it went from CDs, you had to actually have to buy, went to the record store to buy a physical CD, right? An album. And you had the little pamphlets, you had the little booklets, right?

That's the only way you can get your music. To it being digitized and all mp3 and downloadable and streaming, that shift didn't just happen without people thinking like, what's happening? I don't really understand it. That's going to kill the music industry. That's going to destroy the art of music. Everyone wants to buy this tangible album. There were people, including myself back in the day, that were kind of married to this idea of, I want to have that experience of going into the record store,

looking at the CD cover albums and picking my CD, going up to the cash register, buying it, and walking home with it. But it's still a beautiful thought now that you're describing it. It still is. It's a beautiful thought. I would love to go back to that time. I would love to go back to vinyl if we could. But...

It's that same transition that a lot of people think like, what's happening? I don't understand this. This doesn't seem right. Well, it's kind of ridiculous to think in those terms now. Yeah. Well, especially now that we're so used to just searching for a song and just letting it play immediately. And it's not tangible anymore. Music, these digital files are not tangible. Yeah, it's only until we actually think back, you know, because we experienced it, but that's slowly going to start getting saturated. I mean, the memory is going to slowly start to dissolve. Oh, fade away? Dissolve.

Because we're all getting older, and the younger generation is not going to have that memory. So, I mean, that's just the perfect analogy for the way that we're going into the metaverse. It sparks good conversation, because I think when you mentioned some of this stuff, my immediate reaction was probably more similar to Justin's, where I was kind of rejecting it or resisting it.

And then, you know, when I had time to kind of listen to you guys and step back a little bit, it's this notion of being open-minded and closed-minded, etc. My initial thoughts are, number one, is that the transition from vinyl to CD to now just everything in the cloud has been an evolution, a gradual sort of this change, right?

And there are different trade-offs. For instance, before we had any recordable form of music, then you kind of had to listen to everything live. And I'm sure a lot more people were just better singers and musicians because that's what it called for, because there's no other form of being able to listen to these things. I can imagine there's lots of benefits where everyone is more trained in music from being a child. There are also benefits of having everything accessible through

different applications. You can listen to everything. But I definitely think one of the downsides is that I don't value music as much anymore. For sure. When I went to my friend's house a couple years ago and he still used some of the old like big tape reel things and he would remaster things and he had just amplifier, all this stuff. And we would just listen to one song

And we could be happy with listening to that one song all evening. And now I can listen to 100 songs. And I'm literally jumping around. I'm like, oh, I see this. I see this. I'm adding albums in my app, Spotify, whatever, Apple Music. And it doesn't mean anything to me. It's like I'm just, I'm not even tasting the food. So the questions I have in my head are,

are, for the metaverse, it's like, who's driving this? Why are we hearing about this? Is it a commercial thing? Are there companies that are looking to profit from this? Is there underground movements? What's leading us to the metaverse? Like, what are the forces behind this? That's one question I have. And then the second question is that...

Do we need to be more open-minded with a lot of this stuff and just kind of go with it? Because if you held on to the notion of writing a letter, you might be behind at this point. If you never learn how to send an email, I don't think you could make a living these days in a lot of things. So there is that aspect of like, we don't want to resist too much. We may not want to jump on the bandwagon because we don't know what's going to happen. But I think resisting is probably not a good thing because if you get left behind, you

then you'll just be like people before us that are talking about how I pine for the old days. Yeah, I think for me, it just goes back to

the idea of new definitions because as each generation gets older, I mean, when we were younger, we would be like, yeah, those older folks, you know, talking about grunge or punk or whatever, like they don't understand this type of shit or hip hop, right? Like, you know, the older folks are talking about, they don't understand this shit.

And we're like, what are you talking about? It's good music, right? Oh, not like the old days, you know, the old days of music. And now where are those old people being like, oh, listen to music these days. It's such junk. Meanwhile, the young people, their definition of whatever is of value or whatever is very different than what we say. And that's just like...

That's the nature of life. That's a rite of passage that we all have to go through. And that includes the acceptance of technology. And just like you said, one way of looking at it is just you accept it and go with it. Another thing is just to respect the idea that it's just different. That's it. It's just a different definition. That's all it is.

- I think that's the main thing is just, it doesn't have to be a binary thing where I'm either accepting or rejecting. We don't have to put it through that lens. It's not, that decision isn't even up to us anyway. And it's just about, well, let's just learn about everything new and let's just try to understand it. That's it. That's all I think. And the thing that goes back to the empathy thing is like, let's just try to understand everything without having the need and reflex to pass judgment on these things.

But let's just try to truly understand it. And that alone is,

is good enough. The problem is people tend to want to pass judgment on everything, whether they're qualified to pass judgment on it or not. But it's like, why do we always have that reflex? Because it's fun, but we shouldn't feel the need to almost have to do that. It is a reflex, 100%. And you don't even know it's happening. You don't even know it's happening. And it goes back to just not make...

not making any assumptions. Just don't make assumptions. Just because something has the property of being new or old doesn't automatically make it anything. And you've got to then go and ask the questions and not borrow credibility either. It links back to credibility. Okay. Cheers. All right, guys. Cheers. And I'm Justin. I don't really give a... But I'm in. Wow, he hasn't announced his name in a while.

He's always giving some snarky comments. Yeah, he doesn't like to say his own. One time, he caught himself slipping. He even said his full name. Did he? Yeah, and he was like, oh, no, no, no, no. People know my name. Eric is so hilarious in so many different ways. He is. He is. Alright, guys. Peace. Peace.

I'm the man of my life.